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- Newsgroups: comp.arch
- Path: sparky!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!fractal!mdchaney
- From: mdchaney@fractal.ucs.indiana.edu (M Darrin Chaney)
- Subject: Re: Comparison of Alpha, MIPS and PA-RISC-II wanted
- Message-ID: <BzrtBq.5FL@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
- Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
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- Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
- References: <mwp.724991851@iconix.oz.au> <1992Dec22.203644.5908@ais.com> <9212230350.AA09983@TIS.COM>
- Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:50:13 GMT
- Lines: 71
-
- In article <9212230350.AA09983@TIS.COM> mjr@TIS.COM writes:
- >bruce@ais.com (Bruce C. Wright) writes:
- >
- >>I find `stock'
- >>Unix much worse than VMS in terms of productivity mostly because
- >>of that horrible `vi' editor that comes with it :-).
- >
- > In fact, most "operating systems wars" boil down to preferences
- >as simple as these. I realize that Bruce had a 'smiley' to indicate that
- >he was joking, but it seems that whenever the VMS-versus-UNIX or
- >UNIX-versus-DOS or whatever war starts up, sooner or later it winds
- >up boiling down to text editors and window systems and help systems
- >and the really piddly triviata that have *NOTHING* to do with the
- >operating system and everything to do with the operating environment.
-
- I agree, but there is a bit to be said for the environment. With a straight
- off the tape VMS system, you have a real editor, a real debugger, shared
- libraries (as in shareable images), etc. You get none of these in a
- standard, off the tape Unix system (I know, I know, Jack's proprietary Unix
- has these features, but I'm speaking in general). However, you get a C
- compiler, unless you're still buying Sun products.
-
- A real editor and debugger make a difference, especially if you don't have
- net.access. Alot of sites don't, and they're using vi...
-
- > Usually, once the "discussion" has boiled down to this final
- >remnant of sticky pure opinion goo at the bottom of the crucible, most
- >sensible people realize it's time to find something worthwhile to
- >talk about. Arguing about environments is stupid. Especially when
- >it comes to editors and you can buy TPU for UNIX and get vi clones
- >for VMS.
-
- I agree. There are flamewars on the local newsgroups, usually started by
- the CS types who think Unix is the only OS. I've seen remarks referring to
- VMS as that "clunky old operating system." What that comment means is "I
- don't like DCL." I don't love it, but it's not an operating system. And,
- that's usually what it boils down to: I like (whatever)shell better than
- DCL. That's when I interject the "We're talking about operating systems, not
- shells. Get Posix." That stops the whole thing immediately.
-
- The other comments are about DEC having exclusive control of VMS source. I
- invite them to get source to SunOS, HP-UX, Ultrix, AIX, whatever, since it
- is apparently free.
-
- It usually comes down to misinformed people. They've heard VMS sucks, but not
- why. That's why I get in a dander when I see people here calling RMS "the
- file system" and arguing that point. If you don't know the difference between
- a record manager and a file system, you don't have the base knowledge required
- to intelligently discuss the matter.
-
- > Here's an interesting postulate to argue about: operating
- >system kernel technologies aren't interesting anymore. Whether it
- >is VMS or UNIX or NT or FooFrATz is meaningless if the system
- >*environment* ("environment" == utilities, user interface, system
- >libraries, network interface, etc) does what you need it to do.
- >The question, I submit, is not "UNIX or VMS?" it is "what do I
- >need for this *particular* project?" - and that depends on the
- >project, programmer skills, requirements, etc - and is not worth
- >arguing about on USENET.
-
- Actually, to the standard Unix biggot, Unix is what you need for the
- particular project, no matter what it might be. That's how these things
- get started. I agree that no OS, including VMS, is perfect for every
- situation. There are alot of people who still don't understand that, though.
-
- Darrin
- --
-
- mdchaney@iubacs mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu mdchaney@rose.ucs.indiana.edu
-
- "I want- I need- to live, to see it all..."
-