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- Newsgroups: alt.feminism
- Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!levine
- From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
- Subject: Re: Boycotts (was Re: Why are many low-income women fat?)
- References: <BzqHn9.9CK@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <1992Dec24.014721.23472@wam.umd.edu> <Bzs72C.B2y@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <1992Dec26.174805.28940@wam.umd.edu>
- Message-ID: <BzvzLz.FL9@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
- Sender: usenet@news.cso.uiuc.edu (Net Noise owner)
- Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
- Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 21:56:21 GMT
- Lines: 143
-
- rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
-
- > I tend to get joint problems when I put on weight, and
- > I feel shortness of breath and the whole deal. Slim, I feel
- > wonderful--full of energy, active, better ableto study and
- > concentrate.
-
- You may feel that way, but remember many people do not. I feel *more*
- wonderful when I *do* pursue a healthy lifestyle, but not when I
- try to diet.
-
- >>As long as I'm on my soapbox, I'd like to bring up another concern I
- >>have about your postings.
-
- >>However, your postings do disturb me in retrospect,
- >>not because I don't essentially agree with you on these matters -- I
- >>do -- but because of your emotional tone. I really got a feeling from
- >>you, of disgust for these women.
-
- > You're right. I find voluntary ignorance revolting. When I'm
- > sitting in class and I see some bimbo doing her makeup, I feel
- > an almost violent need to try and communicate to that person
- > just what it is they're doing: condemning themselves to miserable
- > failure and condemning me to paying for it, listening to their
- > whining about how unfair life is, and taking the blame for their
- > own failure.
-
- > I _do_ find it disgusting--I cannot imagine feeling any other
- > way towards these people. They remind me, very much, of Joe
- > Bully on the playground who bullies the other kids with his
- > pre-mature growth and then, when they've all grown too and
- > ignore him, cries about how unfair life is.
-
- > Sympathy? Well, perhaps I'm a little cold hearted. They
- > have been told it's important, they have been told that it's
- > urgent, they have been told that it's essential--to their
- > future. They have been _shown_ all of these things, on
- > television, in real life [just walk downtown in DC], their
- > neighbors, their parents, their relations can all tell or show
- > the need for education and preparation--and what do they
- > do with it? In their arrogance--insolence--they IGNORE the
- > world and pursue their own selfish ways and then
- > _blame_ the rest of _us_ for _their_ failure. And it can be
- > no one elses than theirs!
-
- > I almost compulsively state things using very strong
- > wording and fanatic presentation, and I am aware of this,
- > but it is the only way I know to get across the urgency I
- > feel on certain problems. So take the above with a grain
- > of salt--I do feel *sorry* for them, but that doesn't mean
- > I feel _responsible_ for their problems or any desire to
- > pay for their failure.
-
- Yamanari (is this how I should address you)? I am aware that you feel
- strongly about these matters. But your language is not
- necessarily the most effective way to present your case.
-
- I feel very strongly about most of the things I write about; and I
- am trying very hard to convey the strength of my feelings without
- alienating people unnecessarily. End result -- you may not have
- ended up *agreeing* with the things I say, but I'm sure you've
- come away with more respect and understanding for feminist positions --
- or at least *my* feminist positions -- because of them.
-
- Of course I have a chronological advantage -- maybe about 20 more
- years on this earth, *trying* to learn how to write. But don't worry -- a
- chronological challenge is self-correcting. :-)
-
- And, by the way, in my 43 years I've faced adversities you couldn't
- begin to imagine -- and as much as I've faced, I have a friend who faced
- many times more. But people who have been through hard experiences and
- faced them successfully, typically have more sympathy with those who
- can't face them than you do (although, of course, not unlimited
- sympathy).
-
- >>I don't think disgust is appropriate in this case. I particularly
- >>don't think it would be appropriate for me. I have a hard enough
- >>time getting on the emotional wavelength of these women, in order
- >>to reach them, anyway.
-
- > Some of the best teachers I've had were teachers that I
- > actively disliked. I remember my original spanish teacher,
- > who was almost insectoid in manner, and I also remember that
- > I learned more in that class, rapidly, than I have learned in
- > many others with teachers that I liked or felt attuned to.
-
- > Some of the _worst_ teachers I've had were teachers that
- > empathized with the students, because yound men and women
- > tend to be naturally manipulative. With no armor or defense--
- > only understanding--he was powerless to maintain a heirarchy
- > over the class.
-
- Here at this university, there are teachers who manage to get on the
- wavelength of originally unmotivated students *without* giving them a
- free ride.
-
- I know I was more on the wavelength of my spring 1992 class than I was
- on that of the fall 1992 class. And my spring students *did* do better.
- They were more willing to seek help.
-
- > It has to be a two sided affair. You can't teach someone
- > that doesn't want to learn, no matter how badly you wish to do
- > so.
-
- You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn, but you can motivate
- people to want to learn. Not all the time, of course...
-
- >>By the way, I would like to hear from people on this group who've worked
- >>with teenagers, particularly female teenagers. Have you been able to
- >>convince them that studying is important? What methods did you use?
-
- > Why the focus on young women?
-
- There is no intellectual reason for this focus. I brought up *female*
- teenagers in specific, for two reasons:
-
- 1) This is a discussion group (supposedly) focused on women's issues.
-
- 2) For personal, emotional reasons, it particularly hurts me (in many
- cases) to see bright young women ruining their lives in this manner.
- I guess I tend to see them as the daughters I never had.
-
- > Something I have never understood is how feminists can miss what
- > is so painfully obvious to me: You cannot change something as
- > entrenched in society as, say, the self-centered mindset of youth
- > that allows them to blow off their duty to learn by focusing on
- > only 1/2 of the problem.
-
- Entrenched? It's amazing how many institutions and values that seemed
- entrenched, in 1992, will have disappeared by 2022.
-
- > Focusing on young women only is pointless--not only will you
- > be fighting the mindset that they hold, you will be indirectly
- > fighting that of the young men around them who they see
- > "getting away" with not doing anything and just gliding through.
-
- So you think the best way to focus on people, to help them, is to let
- them "get away" with things?
-
- You're right, though, that educational personnel should behave
- impartially with their students.
-
- Lenore Levine
-