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- Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
- Path: sparky!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!cs.uiuc.edu!vela!vela!atterlep
- From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez)
- Subject: Re: Ages; Dance--Pavan
- Message-ID: <atterlep.722275883@vela>
- Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
- References: <9211172115.AA12013@inmet.camb.inmet.com>
- Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 16:11:23 GMT
- Lines: 77
-
- justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) writes:
-
- >Re: New/Middle/Old Guard
-
- >I think that Tibor is basically on-target here: the *useful* meanings
- >of new/middle/old guard have much more to do with attitude than with
- >how long you've actually been around. Note a consequence of this: it's
- >quite possible to change which "guard" you are in, in *either* direction.
- >I've seen a fair number of old-time Carolingians, who had very much
- >been part of the mostly-burned-out Old Guard, revive and get back into
- >the swing of things, winding up once more in the broad Middle Guard.
-
- >Personally, I aspire to keeping myself as new-guard as I reasonably
- >can...
-
-
- This still doesn't help too much; my definitions of "new," "middle," and
- "old" are very different from yours.
- I have noticed that my definitions of "middle" and "old" change as I grow
- older myself--after five years in the SCA (longer than at least two of the
- kingdom officers), I am pushing the time needed to be an "old" member farther
- back.
-
- >Re: Period Dance, Take Three -- Lines of Couples
-
- >Del quotes a message from Richard that I haven't seen yet:
- >>> On the question for dances "longwayes for as many as will",
- >>> However, it is important to note that in none of our period sources from
- >>> the 16th century, including Caroso, Negri and Arbeau. Arbeau, in fact,
- >>> never explicitly mentions that a basse dance or pavan should be danced by
- >>> a long line of couples.
-
- >I have *always* heard the received wisdom that basse dances and pavans
- >are processional dances, and have never seen them danced in any other
- >way. But doing a quick dig through the two sources that I have on
- >hand that pertain to it (Arbeau and the Brussels MS, one of the main
- >basse dance sources), Richard's right -- it doesn't ever really say that
- >these dances are processional.
-
- >Balanced against this, we have a couple of sections in Arbeau that
- >seem to imply that it is at least *sometimes* done processionally,
- >to show off. First, he says (about the pavan),
-
- > "Our musicians play it when a damsel of good family is taken
- > to Holy Church to be married or when musicians head a
- > procession of the chaplains, master and brethren of some
- > notable guild."
-
- >A little further on, he says,
-
- > "... it is used by kings, princes, and great lords to display
- > themselves... and then the queens, princesses and great ladies
- > accompany them with the long trains of their dresses let down
- > and trailing behind them, or sometimes carried by damsels.
- > And these pavans, played by hautboys and sackbuts, are called
- > the Grand Bal, and last until those who dance have circled
- > two or three times round the room. These pavans are also used
- > in a masquerade when there is a procession of triumphal
- > chariots of gods and goddesses, emporers or kings resplendent
- > with majesty."
-
- >Put this all together, and what do you have? It sounds to me like
- >Arbeau is describing a dance with a couple of different uses.
-
- Actually, the quotes don't indicate that these dances were "processional" in
- the way we think of them at all. There's no reason the "kings, princes, and
- great lords" couldn't have processed into the hall one couple at a time, each
- doing a section of the dance and then waiting for the next couple to go. It
- would take a long time, but only "great lords" and up do it--it can't be a very
- large group.
- I'm not a dance specialist, so I may be missing something that everybody
- knows, but I couldn't help but point that out.
-
- Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
- Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
- Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
- atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu **Magnitudo Vocis**
-