NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #27/NN_1992_27.iso/spool/rec/guns/16330

Internet Message Format | 1992-11-19 | 5.2 KB

Path: sparky!uunet!haven.umd.edu!mimsy!
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:04:43 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: gte
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Approved: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, scylax![e-mail] writes:
[...]
# OK,  Someone tell me.  I scream at the perp "ON THE FLOOR"
# He says "fxxx you" ,  I yell "DO IT NOW!"  He calls me "you homo."
# He does not attack me, but he doesn't obey.  Stalemate.  Do I shoot
# him or not?  Any takers?
#
# Lacking a better "technique", I say, if nobody is looking I waste
# him after the second try.  No crippling shot, just my side of the
# story to tell.  In a public place I am not sure what I would do.
#
#     [MODERATOR: The merits of saying ahead of time, and in public,
#      that one would shoot a perp in the above hypothetical situation
#      should be considered.   But could we appeal to the officers here
#      on the net to comment?  Surely training must address exactly
#      this sort of scenario, where a bad guy is clearly covered but
#      neither secured nor cooperative.]
#

Well, I'm no cop, but I've done some looking into this...

You are much better off if the criminal is dead.  Dead men don't
lie.  What?!? You thought the crook would tell the truth after
you shot and wounded him?  Think again.

In most jurisdictions you are only justified in the use of deadly
physical force if a resonable person would think that the person
being shot poses an immediate physical threat to you or someone
else (and sometimes there's more requirements).

FEAR DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A REASON TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE THREATENED.
One needs to deal with this before the confrontation and, more
importantly, with the police after the shooting.

YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!  Even when you know you are alone, know that
someone is watching and will be reporting.  Your actions must
appear to that person like you are defending yourself from a threat.
That person will hear all the incriminating words and none of the
justfying words.

All the above is, of course, to do with staying out of jail, not
staying alive.  Obviously, staying alive is first, but only marginally
(can you imagine how much fun you're gonna have in the showers when
they find out you're in for shooting one of their buddies?).

I would suggest that, *if*the*situation*permits*, you do the following:

    Issue simple commands VERY LOUDLY.

    Step back if the suspect does not obey AND you can do so safely.
        This will make it look like you are avoiding confrontation --
        it will affect the opinions of the witness and make that person
        more likley to see your actions as defensive.

    If you have him covered, I'd say (just my opinion) that I am armed,
        he is captured, and he will be shot if he does not follow orders.
        Then I'd follow that with a "I'm not gonna get hurt here, you've
        gotta decide if you're gonna get hurt."  This de-personalizes
        the decision to shoot (you are putting it on him -- makes it
        easier to pull the trigger and most of them can figure that out).
        It also tells the witness that you want to apprehend this guy,
        he decides if he goes out in cuffs or on a stretcher.

    Avoiding shooting in the back -- this is not "don't shoot in the back"
        just "have a damn good reason." (ie: he is moving towards another
        victim.  There are very few situations where a person can
        immediately harm you if his back is towards you.  You will have to
        overcome a basic human assumption that shooting in the back is
        murder -- both with witness and with the police (judge & jury 8( ).

    If the suspect turns to face you after you have told him in no uncertain
        terms that you have a gun and he is under arrest, IMHO shoot unless
        there is an obvious and immediate reason not to (ie: the person is
        obviously a foreginer and turns slowly with both hands high in the
        air and you have good cover).  If you have clearly given instructions,
        backed away, warned again, and then he turns toward you (quickly),
        the witness is much more likely to give testimony that supports your
        position.  At this point you *might* have made a mistake, but if you
        don't shoot, you are much more likely to be dead.

In the end, each person much determined where to draw the line
between being judged by 12 or carried by 9, and between grieving
over a serious error and having your family and friends grieve
over a serious loss.

The laws, citizens, police, and courts in each city, county and
state will affect where any one person draws that line, so don't
take anyone's word as gospel: just a data point in determining
where, when, and why you will pull the trigger.

--
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
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