NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #27/NN_1992_27.iso/spool/comp/os/coherent/5736

Internet Message Format | 1992-11-19 | 8.6 KB

Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!biosci!ig!pcs.cnu.edu!shendrix
From: [e-mail] ("", Shannon Hendrix)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Tcl to replacement most of /bin & /usr/bin (was: Tcl on Linux
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 19 Nov 92 19:12:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: "Coherent operating system" <[e-mail]>
Lines: 149

>
> Every UNIX system has a single user mode, that runs without ttys, for
> save administration of the system.
> Under COHERENT change the "exit 0" to "exit 1" in /etc/brc and you
> get what you want. But I'm sure you don't want this :-)
>
    The future is moving towards single-user multi-tasking computers
running on networks.  That way each user gets maximum power because the
machine isn't running with multi-user overhead.  I don't agree with that,
but that is how things are headed.  It may stink, but, DOS is the world's
most popular OS and that should show you that stinky things can still
rule.  A little more logic and less butt-kissing in the corporate world
would help of course...


> : >4) fast response for games (hey, games sell computers!)
> :
> : Get an Amiga.
>
> Why? There are lot of games which are running fine on a PC under DOS.
> If COHERENT gets an GUI like MGR or X11 it's no problem to write or
> port some games which uses graphics. There are some nice games available
> which runs in text mode using curses. Of course nothing like Wing Commander,
> but also interesting (try to solve all the D&D's:-).
> Also if we get the device driver kit in our hands, it should be possible
> to write a device driver for an soundblaster.

    Why?  Because I don't want to have to get out of UNIX to enjoy
a nice game!  I don't want to use DOS at *ALL*.  Right now, my hard drive,
already too small, is divided in half because I have some DOS games and
applications that I still need.  If there were some decent UNIX word
processors and such, that wouldn't be a problem.  However, there just
isn't much out there for UNIX (that I can afford anyway).  So, I end up
switching back and forth.  That keeps me from effectively using a lot
of UNIX's functionality like cron, news, email, etc.  I just can't leave
it running long enough.  I guess what I need is to get a Macintosh for my
grunt work and dedicate my PC to UNIX only.  But, Macs are still way
overpriced and I still have a hard time liking them.
    X11 games are huge because X11 is huge.  But, I can live with
that.  Yesterday I tried to get xtank and xtrek running under Linux but
there are too many problems.  Porting xtank will be a major software
project I'm afraid.  Might be easier to write my own :-).  But, I'll
try it over the holidays.  If Coherent gets X, I should have a head
start on proting for it too.  Xtrek is kinda strange, though much
smaller than xtank.
>
> : Dump Motif and right something new.
>
> Or take a look at MGR.
    MGR isn't ported to Coherent yet.  It's sorta running under Linux
but its not quite there yet.  UNIX needs a GUI built in to the kernel.
Another nice thing to add would be a shell that is GUI from the ground up.
Right now I load xterm (256k) and then run bash in it (another 200K).  That
is way too much memory used for a shell.  I have thought about a shell that
was actually a GUI application so you wouldn't be running one program on
top of another.  Should be both smaller and faster.  If I can talk the
school admin into paying for some of the cost (I need more hardware to
tackle that) I may write such a beast.
>
> : >6) A simplification of administration.  File permissions are a real big
> : >   problem for most users.  Perhaps a new file system that would be real
> : >   simple, like DOS but with long filenames and extended attributes.  The
> : >   kernel would still support a standard FS but if you don't need it...
> :
> : Right.  Turn UNIX into DOSIX.  Bleah!
>
> Administration is _not_ a problem of the filesystem. Sit down and write
> an administration program like SCO's sysadmin shell or like AIX's smit.
    Yes it *IS* a file system problem.  No, we can't avoid it.  To
have the power of an OS like UNIX, you need a robust file system.  However,
it causes lots of admin problems because of its complexity.  You are right
about some sysadmin utils but its hard to convince newbies about that.
People are still afraid of simple computers, let alone a beast like a
UNIX box.  Again, I'm trying to promote UNIX in a way that will allow
*anybody* to use it.  Sysadmin utilities might do the job but they will
have to be just about foolproof.  Know any like that?  I don't...

>
> : In the Linux and BSD groups, I've seen a lot of new users who want to turn
> : UNIX into MSDOS.  I will fight to keep this from happening.  I have a decade
> : of experience with UNIX, and think it is the best OS that I ever used.  I
 used
> : to have a PC/XT running MSDOS, and have written diagnostics for dedicated
> : applications running on MSDOS machines to exercise and test commodity
 hardware
> : in a factory setting.  I am about as interested in using DOS as I would be
 in
> : programming on punched cards.
>
> If someone writes some user interfaces for UNIX, which makes it easyser
> for DOS users to use the system, fine, do it. As long as everyone can
> select how to use UNIX (at shell level or with an X11 user interface
> or whatever) all is fine. But it's a very poor idea to reduce the
> functionality of UNIX back to DOS.

    Nothing I mentioned would reduce the functionality of UNIX, rather,
it would increase it.  Plus, it would increase its acceptance.  As users
in general become more sophisticaed (and they will, 15 years ago they didn't
use computers at all!!!), it won't be necessary.  But it is for now.
>
> (Only my opinion)
> --
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>
    I think we mostly agree.  I just hate to see UNIX get killed
simply because the UNIX camp refuses get off their behinds to make the
system usuable by normal people.  Hey, I know how to use nroff to format
documents and even LaTeX.  However, the output needs Postscript or some
emulation thereof to really look nice.  I have a 24-pin printer that is
largely unsupported by UNIX (save for the ghostscript interpreter) and
its very hard to write with the vi/emacs and nroff/TeX combo prevelant
in UNIX society.  Contrast that with, dare I say this, Windows.  With
Windows I get super-fast document formatting, incredible looking output
even on cruddy little 9-pin printers, and its all so easy.  I don't like
Windows word processors, they are too big and ugly.  However, there is no
reason why UNIX couldn't have a nice text-based WP like WordStar or something
as well as a good graphical one for X.  I used IslandWrite on the Suns
at school but do you know how much that package cost?  Its over $700!
Hey, I got Word for Windows for $50 at a computer show!
    UNIX is getting stomped on because people don't give a hang
about technical merit.  Most are too dang stupid to know anything about
an OS.  They *DO* know how well it works for them though.  The things
against UNIX are documentation, cost, dearth of end-user apps, incompatiblity,
and fear.  The last part will be conquered.  But, UNIX costs way too much.
The documentations is great for programmers, horrible for everyone else.
Incompatiblity is easing up now and I exepect it to get better and better
but it is still a big issue.  When most people look at a computer system
they want cheap, easy, lots, and pretty.  If it ain't got that it won't
sell.  The don't realize that UNIX comes with so many things that will
have to be added to other systems (like networking, email, software
development tools, etc.).
    Anyway, honestly believe that UNIX *WILL* survive.  It just gets
scary once in awhile watching other OS's take off will UNIX remains more
of a religion than a mainstream OS.  Surely if Windows can make it a
real good OS like UNIX can.  It needs to get smaller, cheaper, faster,
and it will do fine.  Mark Williams Company has at least made it
smaller and cheaper.  I hope they get the rest out the door.



=====================================================
Shannon Hendrix                |[e-mail]
Christopher Newport University |---------------------
Newport News, VA               |** space for rent **
=====================================================