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- Path: sparky!uunet!stanford.edu!ames!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!mipl3!pdb059
- From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
- Newsgroups: ca.politics
- Subject: Re: "Monsters Among Us", Frontlines, November 10, 1992, PBS
- Message-ID: <197391@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov>
- Date: 16 Nov 92 11:48:32 GMT
- References: <13147@optilink.UUCP> <1992Nov12.231349.29610@gordian.com> <Bxny3z.Aww@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> <1e0sauINNo1d@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> <BxoyIp.7Hu@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
- Distribution: world
- Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab
- Lines: 98
-
- In article <BxoyIp.7Hu@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:
- > stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU (x4604 (Hauskins)) writes:
- >
- >>In article <Bxny3z.Aww@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:
- >>>mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
- >
- > Non sequitor. Proscribing homosexual activity does not pass any legal, moral,
- > or other judgement on any person. It merely bans an activity. People are
- > more than the sum of their actions, and no person is so limited that
- > proscribing an activity denies their humanity. I realize that many self-
- > labelled "homosexuals" would attempt to define themselves entirely in
- > terms of their sexuality, but that is merely a sign of their mental
- > instability.
-
- Oh, nonsense. You're beginning to sound like Clayton Cramer. Proscribing
- homosexual activity most certainly does, by definition, pass legal judgment
- on a person (or, more precisely, what that person chooses to do). If this
- proscription is passed for moral reasons, which is certainly the case for
- homosexuality, then the law is acting to pass moral judgment as well.
-
- "Merely bans an activity".... Gad. Might I suggest that you examine it from
- the other perspective? What if a law were to be passed forbidding us from
- having sex with women? Even women that we had made a lifelong commitment to?
- That law would merely ban an activity, right? You still have not addressed
- the issue of why you feel a law should be passed that regulates behavior in
- the privacy of a home between two or more consenting adults. I can think of
- no case where any such law would be proper.
-
- Out of curiosity, why did you use the phrase "self-labelled", and why did you
- put "homosexuals" into quotes? I know of no homosexuals who define themselves
- "entirely in terms of their sexuality", but I know of a great many hetero-
- sexuals who define homosexuals in just that way. You, based on what you have
- said here, are one of those.
-
- Many homosexuals band together in groups for the same reason that blacks
- tend to hang around with other blacks, asians hang around with other asians,
- Christians hand around with other Christians, and so on. Any person tends
- to hang around with people they are comfortable with.
-
- > The situation you describe would, of course, be reprehensible. However,
- > if society said to my son/daughter "The action you have taken is wrong
- > and detrimental to society" I would have no choice but to agree. I love
- > my children, but that love requires me to point out wrong action.
-
- Talk about non sequiturs. Since you have not demonstrated that homosexuality
- is wrong nor detrimental to society, your argument is meaningless.
-
- > My point is that the gay person can no more attack the straight person for
- > attempting to outlaw homosexuality than a child molester can attack both
- > for outlawing child molestation.
-
- And once again, like Clayton Cramer, you attempt to equate the two. Sorry,
- but there are too many critical differences between the two for me to accept
- this argument. As has been pointed out to you in the past, homosexuality
- involves two consenting adults. Child molestation is entirely different.
- Therefore, a gay person has every right to ask the straight person to not
- pass laws outlawing homosexuality.
-
- >>The point is that gay people are here, have been here, and probably will be. If
- >>two adults decide that they want to be together, then there is nothing morally
- >>wrong with that. It all lies within the eye of the beholder. I could come up
- >>with list of things that 'straight' people indulge in and should possibly be
- >>outlawed...
- >
- > You certainly could. You would be wrong, but the list could easily be
- > constructed.
-
- Let's try. Sado-masochism between two consenting adults in the privacy of
- their own home, including bondage, chains, whips, and even minor bodily harm.
- Why is this acceptable to you while homosexuality is not?
-
- > Oh, please, what gives you the right to label the act "molestation"? You've
- > just said morality is in the eye of the beholder. You've said there is
- > no right or wrong. Child molestation, by your definition, cannot possibly
- > be attacked as wrong - it is simply a different way to live one's life.
- > If a 12-year old adult wants to have sex with a 35-year old adult, who are
- > you to say it's wrong, hmmmmm?
-
- It's simple--a twelve-year-old child is not an adult and is not capable of
- an informed decision on such matters. That's why we have laws protecting
- them. Two adults, on the other hand, are quite capable of making informed
- decisions.
-
- > I know several gay people. I know several people who have used illegal
- > drugs. I know several people who stole things. I know people who have
- > molested children. I know people who lie. All of them are, or can be,
- > good people when they want to be. Their actions are detrimental to
- > society, however, and when the occasion has risen, I have let them know
- > that.
-
- I love this one. Please tell me why a gay person's sexual acts are "detri-
- mental to society"? I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this.
-
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Paul Bartholomew | "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
- | many things..." Lewis Carroll
- pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov | Disclaimer: Opinions? What opinions?
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-