NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #27/NN_1992_27.iso/spool/alt/callahan/13694

Text File | 1992-11-17 | 5.0 KB | 91 lines

Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Path: sparky!uunet!wupost!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!uchinews!ellis!mss2
From: [e-mail] (Michael S. Schiffer)
Subject: Re: Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Campus Computing Sites, University of Michigan
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:41:20 GMT
Lines: 78

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael S. Schiffer) writes:

>=    "I'd think there's a middle ground between `no longer in the
>=miracle business' and `intervenes [implicitly `intervenes by
>=detectably suspending natural law'] on almost a daily basis.

>Certainly there is.  Though with the ominpotent Christian god, it's difficult
>to tell where you are in the spectrum.

>=Consider a simple universe: a pinball machine.  From observations of the
>=universe beneath the glass, one might be able to develop a
>=sophisticated science of mechanics.  But while one could develop some
>=hypotheses as to when the flippers would flip, it would be impossible
>=to reduce it to a science.  Too many factors intervene.  (We presume
>=that the player is unknowable except in his manifestations as flipper
>=movements; for this thought experiment we are limited only to the
>=world of bumpers, lights, balls, flippers, etc. which exist within the
>=limits of the pinball playfield.)  The vast majority of the balls' motions is
>=perfectly lawful (and almost perfectly Newtonian)-- but every so often
>=an unpredictable factor is introduced into it, at intervals which are
>=not known to the inhabitants (a ball can pass a flipper with no
>=action, or a player could nervously work the flipper when no ball is
>=nearby).  Is science possible within the pinball universe?"

>I thought I'd covered this case when I said that the gods of many other
>religions, who weren't omnipotent and had to obey at least SOME rules, didn't
>necessarily conflict with science.  You see, by constraining the god to act
>only via the flippers, you've removed his omnipotence.

    "All right then.  Let's add the possibility of `body english'.
Now interventions can happen anywhere and any time.  Clearly, if they
happen _too_ often, the universe isn't lawful.  But if we presume a
conservative player, who only uses them _in extremis_ (and with the
knowledge that using them too much makes the game meaningless-- not to
mention setting off the tilt sensor :-) ) then again, most of the
world can meaningfully support science.

    "Note that this does not restrict the _power_ of the player,
who may be `omnipotent' with respect to the pinball universe.  For
all we know, he has a toolkit next to him with which he could, at any
time, disassemble the machine, or take the top glass off and move a
ball manually.  But for the most part that level of intervention would
be pointless if the game is to be meaningful.   If the player did just hit
the bumper with his finger or manually blocked the ball from being
lost, science would be subsumed by the study of the psychology of the
player (i.e. theology) which by its nature couldn't be particularly
scientific.  But if the player didn't do that sort of thing, or only did
it as an emergency measure once or twice in a whole series of games,
then science can still operate (and would tend to ignore the
large interventions, depending on the scientist's temperament, as
either outside the scope of science or as obvious legends: "In the
last five hundred games no one has ever seen a ball disappear from one
side of the machine and reappear elsewhere.  Clearly such things don't
happen any more, if they ever did.")

    "Granted, science cannot operate in a world which is not
uniformly lawful a large majority of the time.  But the existence of a
being or beings with the power to violate those laws does not
invalidate science (though it might circumscribe its scope) so long as
that power is not used to violate laws too often.  Our own universe
appears to be lawful most of the time.  But that doesn't mean that it
logically has to be lawful all the time-- the existence of a
governor's power to pardon does not mean that one cannot usually
predict the fate of a convicted criminal; the existence of the "Get
Out of Jail Free" card does not mean that we can't predict what will
usually happen to a Monopoly player when he rolls doubles three times
in a row, and the fact that a particular electron's location is
indeterminable doesn't prevent us from determining the location of a
lightning bolt."

Michael

--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS    "Indeed I tremble for my country
[e-mail]     when I reflect that God is just."
[e-mail]     -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on
[e-mail]            Virginia (1784)