NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #16/NN_1992_16.iso/spool/rec/autos/18595

Internet Message Format | 1992-07-27 | 3.6 KB

Xref: sparky rec.autos:18595 misc.legal:14972
Newsgroups: rec.autos,misc.legal
Path: sparky!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!valeria.cs.ucla.edu!wales
From: [e-mail] (Rich Wales)
Subject: Re: Really a policeman? (was Re: Unmarked COP Cars)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: valeria.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Rich Wales)
Organization: UCLA CS Department, Los Angeles
References: <zdem0a.711898286@hgo7> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 03:58:48 GMT
Lines: 63

I am cross-posting this to misc.legal as well as rec.autos, because of
the legal issues involved.

In rec.autos, Jeff Chilton described being pulled over by an out-of-
uniform policeman in an unmarked car, and wrote:

    I guess my point is, that they (COPS) are out there in all
    kinds of dress, and all kinds of vehicles.  Just because
    you are pulled over on the highway or wherever, it doesn't
    mean that it's a traffic enforcement officer . . . .  My
    advice would be to keep the motor running, and the car in
    gear, with the window rolled down just enough to hear until
    you are shown some pretty authentic looking ID.

In my opinion,

(1) the plainclothes policeman's first words to Jeff should have been
    "California Highway Patrol", "Santa Clara County Sheriff's Deputy",
    or whatever, and he should have showed his badge without being
    asked to do so.  He had absolutely no business asking for Jeff's
    license or registration without having first clearly identified
    himself.

(2) Jeff's first words should have been "Are you a police officer?  If
    so, may I please see your badge?" (rather than "What the h--- are
    you?").  If necessary, he should have asked this at least twice.

Part of me emphatically believes that

(1) I have no moral/ethical obligation to treat someone as a police
    officer and obey his commands, unless he is either in uniform, is
    driving a clearly marked car (more than just flashing lights from
    inside the car), or promptly announces what he is and shows me an
    ID.

(2) if someone not in uniform attempts to order me around in any way,
    I have the right to ask him if he is a police officer (and, if so,
    to show me his badge) -- and that if he refuses repeated requests
    to do so, I am perfectly justified in treating him as if he were
    potentially a criminal assailant (including fleeing the scene if
    possible, or defending myself from him by force if necessary).

Unfortunately, another part of me concedes that if I were to follow my
own advice, I might well end up in =bad= legal trouble (or worse!) for
refusing to obey a policeman, assaulting a policeman, etc.

Something definitely needs to be done about this kind of thing.

BTW, I was once (1984, Los Angeles) ordered around by a pair of plain-
clothes policemen in an unmarked car, as I was returning to my apart-
ment.  It seems that my roommate's inability to find a parking space
(and his resulting drive around the block, then stopping in front of
the apartment to let me out while he continued his search) made these
guys think we fit a profile for some burglars they were looking for.
Once the incident had passed, I got on the phone and (as politely as
possible) gave the person in charge at the local police station a piece
of my mind.  He said he agreed with me and would have a "talk" with the
officers involved.  I never heard anything more about the incident, so
I can't really say if my complaint ended up making any difference.

--
Rich Wales <[e-mail]> // UCLA Computer Science Department
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596 // [phone]