Columbia Kermit/kermit.zip/pub/public_html/pdp11.txt

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 7-Mar-96 20:25:42-GMT,1715;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 7 Mar 96 15:25:37 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "David L. Gudewicz 847.937.8227" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kermit 95 1.1.4 patch is available
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Mar 1996 13:35:00 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> BTW, I'm a DECUS LUG Chairman here in Chicagoland.  What ever happened to
> the issue between Kermit and DECUS, to put it briefly.
>
Nothing much.  I had some discussions with Bill Mayhew, he was supportive,
he pulled the sensitive stuff off CompuServe -- to the extent that he could,
but that was about it.  There was some talk about some kind of "profit"
sharing agreement between Columbia and the DECUS Library, but I can't locate
the correspondence on that just now, and anyway it would not make much sense.

I think the right thing is for DECUS to not distribute C-Kermit for VMS or
UNIX, etc, or the IBM version of MS-DOS Kermit (and of course, not Kermit 95)
-- leave all that to us.  But that it should feel free to distribute the other
older DEC-specific versions for which there are occasional requests to have on
native media -- VT180, Rainbow, PDP-11, Pro 3xx, etc -- because we can't
provide these versions on native media (RX01, RX50, RK05, etc).  (We used to
distribute the VT180 and Rainbow versions until our last VT180 and Rainbows
gave up the ghost.)

If DECUS wanted to sell Kermit software WITH the books, we could work out
something by which both sides could profit.

If you have any other ideas, I'd be glad to hear them.

- Frank

15-Mar-96 17:09:54-GMT,3543;000000000001
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 15 Mar 1996 12:09:32 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:09:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ["Ronald L. Fox" <[e-mail]>: Errors in your Kermit 95
 descriptions - LAT is not the same as DECnet]
To: [e-mail]
Message-id: <[e-mail]>
Organization: St. Peter's College, US
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> Hi Terry.  Is he right?  If so, of course I'll do as he says.

  Sort of. DEC seems to go out of their way to confuse things. Aside from
the TCP/IP protocols, DEC has 3 protocols for virtual terminal sessions.
The first was IMP-11 (available in VMS as SET HOST/OLD). The second was
CTERM (SET HOST). Both of these protocols are DECnet protocols (you need
DECnet installed and configured to run them). Later, DEC came out with
LAT, a low-overhead protocol. LAT doesn't require DECnet to run, except
that in some DEC operating systems, DECnet is a prerequisite for LAT (for
example, RSTS/E). However, that's just a licensing issue.

  Of these protocols, IMP-11 and CTERM were host-to-host protocols and
LAT was a server-to-host protocol. This has been fuzzed up a bit, as there
was a terminal server product (based on the PDP-11/24) that did CTERM, and
recent versions of VMS can originate (as well as receive) LAT sessions.

  When DEC came out with the product now known as Pathworks (formerly
DECnet-DOS, DEC services for PCs, LANworks, and some other names) they
included CTERM and LAT client capabilities, so if you had LAT or CTERM on
your PC, you had it because you had DECnet-DOS (PATHWORKS).

  A number of companies came out with semi-functional LAT implementations
that didn't require the 200KB memory resident blob that was the rest of
DECnet-DOS. Meridian was one of those, Datability (now Penril) was another.
In fact, Datability had a whole stack similar to Pathworks (but which was
as flakey as the rest of everything Datability ever made).

  So it was possible to do LAT without having DECnet-DOS (PATHWORKS) loaded,
as long as you didn't mind using an API that was completely different from
the PATHWORKS one (or, in the case of the Meridian stack, one that claimed
to be the same but worked differently which you needed to code explicit ex-
ceptions for).

  Since then, DEC appointed Meridian the official manager of licensing for
DEC's LAT code. However, you can still license just the protocol spec, or
you can get a complete implementation, so there are still some incompatible
API's.

  In the case of MS-DOS Kermit, since Joe and I put in the LAT/CTERM support,
the correct statement is "works with PATHWORKS LAT/CTERM or packages which
have an identical API". If K95 includes its own LAT software the we should
say "comes with LAT software (licenses from <mumble>)". Otherwise we should
state what API we use. If that API is the PATHWORKS one, then it's reason-
able to say "DECnet LAT" (meaning DECnet-DOS's LAT) though a somewhat archaic
term these days.

  Does this help?

    T.

  [Feel free to forward to the original poster if you like]

19-Mar-96  0:08:15-GMT,2499;000000000001
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Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:07:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: John Santos <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit
Newsgroups: comp.os.rsts
In-Reply-To: <4ikaij$[e-mail]>
Organization: Columbia University
cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, Jeffrey Altman <[e-mail]>,
        Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>

In article <4ikaij$[e-mail]> you write:
: In article <4iii6a$jm8$[e-mail]>,
:            Kelvin Smith <[e-mail]> wrote:
: >One other thing I'd like to see in a new RSTS Kermit:  No creation of
: >RMS attributes on an uploaded file unless the file is truly an RMS file
: >coming from another system.  It's a nuisance to have to strip off
: >the attributes before certain programs will work properly (like using
: >PIP to concatenate multiple files).
:
:         Sounds like a good idea.  This might require some sort of file
: transfer option (defaulting to current behaviour), so as not to break
: existing applications, but it should be easy to put the necessary
: commands in the KERMIT.INI file.  I'll put it on my list...
:
Hi John.  Since it looks like you're going ahead with this, I figured I'd
put in my 2 cents.

First let's settle on a file naming convention.  It's probably easiest to
keep the same filenames, but replace "K11" with something else that doesn't
conflict with any names that we have already -- perhaps just something dumb
like "KRS".

Second, I do hope you and Billy can get together on merging sources -- then
only RSX and IAS are left out in the cold, and this might be sufficient
incentive for somebody somewhere to merge that one in too.  (Terry, maybe you
want to post this on DECUSserve?)

Third, as you may know, we gave up on trying to stuff complex file attributes
into A packets, and we settled on a different approach, called "labeled file
transfer", for transferring complex file objects like RMS indexed files, etc.
This has been implemented in C-Kermit for VMS and in C-Kermit for OS/2.

The trick would be to make Kermit-11 have a labeled mode just like VMS
C-Kermit, and for the two to be able to interoperate.  Any thoughts on this,
Terry?

If you're interested in pursuing this, I will dig up the spec and send it
to you.

- Frank

19-Mar-96 20:29:29-GMT,1610;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:22:46 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: software for a PDP 11/73
To: [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail]
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I work at the University of Cincinnati in the Chemistry department. I have a
DEC PDP11/73 microcomputer which is being used for data collection. I want to
transfer the data off of the PDP to a PC. Do you have a copy of Kermit
available for my system? The system is a PDP 11/73 running RSX-11M-PLUS V3.0
BL24D. I have a TK50 tape drive. cost?

James Carlson
[e-mail]

19-Mar-96 20:30:32-GMT,2353;000000000011
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:28:40 -0500 (EST)
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To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>,
        John Santos <[e-mail]>
From: John Santos <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit
Cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, Jeffrey Altman <[e-mail]>,
        Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>

At 07:07 PM 3/18/96 -0500, Frank da Cruz wrote:
>First let's settle on a file naming convention.  It's probably easiest to
>keep the same filenames, but replace "K11" with something else that doesn't
>conflict with any names that we have already -- perhaps just something dumb
>like "KRS".
>
>Second, I do hope you and Billy can get together on merging sources -- then
>only RSX and IAS are left out in the cold, and this might be sufficient
>incentive for somebody somewhere to merge that one in too.  (Terry, maybe you
>want to post this on DECUSserve?)

If we can get the sources merged, the common files would be "KRT...";
I think it would be cleaner if the RSTS-only files were KRT, too.  If it
turns out to be too hard to maintain common sources or to merge my changes,
then I'll go with KRS.

>Third, as you may know, we gave up on trying to stuff complex file attributes
>into A packets, and we settled on a different approach, called "labeled file
>transfer", for transferring complex file objects like RMS indexed files, etc.
>This has been implemented in C-Kermit for VMS and in C-Kermit for OS/2.
>
>The trick would be to make Kermit-11 have a labeled mode just like VMS
>C-Kermit, and for the two to be able to interoperate.  Any thoughts on this,
>Terry?
>
>If you're interested in pursuing this, I will dig up the spec and send it
>to you.
>

Yes, I think that would be the way to go.  Please send me the spec.

- John
John Santos


19-Mar-96 22:07:43-GMT,10249;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 17:07:04 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: John Santos <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:28:40 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

>  Please send me the spec.
>
Here it is -- any questions, send them to me, Terry, and Billy; hopefully
we can resolve anything that needs resolving in the direction of
interoperability among all RMS and/or FILES-11 systems.

----

Kermit programs presently differentiate between text and binary files via
the SET FILE TYPE command.  When the file type is TEXT, the Kermit program
that is sending the file converts the file's record format and character set
from its local form to a standard form, and the receiving Kermit program
converts from the standard form into its own local record format and character
set.  When the file type is BINARY, the file is sent as-is, byte for byte.

These two ways of handling files are sufficient in many cases, but fall short
when one or both computers has a complex file system, such as the Macintosh or
DEC operating systems like VAX/VMS.  The Kermit protocol includes a mechanism
for transmitting a file's attributes in a generic way, but these attributes
are of little use when the file is being received by a computer with a simple
file system, such as UNIX or MS-DOS, that can't do anything with them.  And
they are not sufficient to convey every conceivable bit of information about
about every kind of file on every kind of computer.

To allow a complicated file to be transferred, a new file type is proposed:

  SET FILE TYPE LABELED

Notice the spelling of "LABELED" (only one L between the E's).  When this
setting is in effect, the sending Kermit sends not only the file's data, but
also system-dependent structural information about the file.  Since this
information can be quite lengthy, it is sent as if it were file data, in data
packets preceding the actual file data, rather than in attribute packets.  All
of this information is sent in binary mode (no conversions).

The receiver of the file can elect whether to act upon the label information,
or simply store it.  Kermit programs for simple file systems need no changes,
and can still act as repositories for labeled files, to be sent back later to
the system of origin.  On the other hand, labeled file transfers between like
systems (e.g. two VAX/VMS computers) will result in the reception of a file
with all the correct characteristics.

There are two possible modes of operation.  The first (and safer) mode
requires human intervention on a per-file basis, but an automatic mode is also
possible.

DEFINITIONS

A "bare" file is a file stored on disk that does NOT contain, as part of
its contents, Kermit-constructed label information.

A "labeled" file is a file stored on disk whose contents include
Kermit-constructed label information.

FORMAT OF A LABELED FILE

This description applies to a labeled file as stored on disk and to a bare
file that has label information added to it by a sending Kermit.

  BANNER  The literal text string "KERMIT LABELED FILE:", just the twenty
          characters within the quotes including the trailing colon, in 7-bit
          ASCII.  ASCII is used even on non-ASCII systems (like IBM mainframes
          with EBCDIC).

  IDLEN   A 2-byte ASCII decimal numeric length field, with leading zeros if
          necessary, for example "02".

  SYSID   The system ID, one of the codes listed on pp.275-278 of the Kermit
      book.  This is a string of 1 to 99 ASCII characters (but typically
          1-3 characters), for example "D7" for (Open)VMS.  The length of the
          SYSID field is given by the preceding field (IDLEN):

          D7 = VMS
          D8 = RSX-11
          D9 = IAS
          DA = RSTS/E
          DB = RT-11 or TSX+
          DC = P/OS

  LBLEN   A 2-byte ASCII numeric length field, with leading zeros if
          necessary, for example "00", "02", "09", "99".

  LABEL   A label field, 1 to 99 ASCII characters.  The length is given by
          the preceding length field (LBLEN).  The LABEL field contains the
          name of the file descriptor data that follows.

  VALEN   An 8-byte ASCII numeric length field, with leading zeros if
          necessary, for example "00000512".  Zero ("00000000") is a
          permissible length for a value.

  VALUE   The value associated with the label, 0 to 99999999 bytes of
          information about the file in system-dependent format.  The labels
          and the format and layout of the associated values for each system
          type should be clearly defined and documented.

     The sequence (LBLEN, LABEL, VALEN, VALUE) may be repeated for as many
     labeled values are needed (if VALEN is zero, then VALUE is omitted).

  CONTENT The file's contents, encoded in whatever form that, in combination
          with the labeled values, allows for its eventual reconstruction in
          its original form.

REQUIRED LABELS

The following labels (composed of ASCII uppercase letters) are reserved, and
are required in every labeled file:

  VERS    The operating system version, e.g. "5.3-1"

  DATA    This is the final label.  It has a zero-length value, which is
          followed immediately by the file's contents, as defined above.
          See example below.

EFFECTS ON THE KERMIT PROTOCOL

When SET FILE TYPE LABELED is in effect, the sending Kermit should include
the file type (") attribute, specifying a type of binary (B), if attribute
packets have been negotiated.  Otherwise, there is no effect on the protocol
at all.  In particular, a label-wise Kermit program can interoperate perfectly
well with another Kermit program that is completely ignorant of labeling, in
which case the latter program simply "archives" the file, labels and all.

This proposal does not rule out the system-independent type of file archiving,
based on file attribute packets, that is described in the Kermit book.
However, if the "system-dependent" attributes suggested by this proposal can
be worked out in a sufficiently generic fashion, this may lead to a more
effective type of transmission of complex files between unlike systems that
share similar types of file characteristics (block size, record format,
character set, carriage control, etc).

On the other hand, for the first pass at an implementation (for VMS), it might
make more sense to simply have a single system-dependent label, like "FAB",
whose value is simply the File Access Block, and perhaps another one like
"ACL" for its Access Control List.  The two approaches do not rule each other
out.

USER INTERFACE

When SENDING a file, the user should first determine whether it is a bare file
or a labeled file.  This can be done by visual inspection (looking at the
first 20 bytes), or from memory (e.g. because all labeled files have a
particular filetype, or are kept together in a certain directory).  Then:

  (a) If it is a bare file, use SET FILE TYPE LABELED if you want to send
      label information too.

  (b) If it is a labeled file, use SET FILE TYPE BINARY.

When receiving a file, use SET FILE TYPE LABELED if you want labels in the
incoming file to be interpreted and applied, and:

 (a) The other Kermit is sending a bare file from a like system using SET
     FILE TYPE LABELED, or:

 (b) The other Kermit is sending a labeled file, of the receiving system's
     system type, from any kind of system, without SET FILE TYPE LABELED.

The receiving Kermit program that has been given a SET FILE TYPE LABELED
command must inspect the incoming data.  The first 30-36 bytes of the first
packet contain the BANNER, IDLEN, SYSID, and the first LBLEN, and LABEL (which
should be "04VERS").  If these five items are in correct format, and the SYSID
matches the program's own, then the program will accept the file in labeled
mode.  Otherwise, it will treat it as a binary file and store all the data,
including BANNER, SYSID, LABELs, VALUEs, and all length fields.

If a receiving Kermit program has accepted the file in labeled mode, but then
encounters an unknown label or other inconsistency in the labeled file format,
it must interrupt the file transfer (by putting an X in the data field of the
first available ACK) and discard the file.  This is because it cannot be
expected to back up and undo whatever label interpretation it has already done.

It is also conceivable that "similar" systems -- such as the DEC operating
systems VMS and RSX-11 -- might be able to honor each other's labels.  This
eventuality should be allowed for, possibly with SET commands.

At the discretion of the programmer, a command such as SET FILE
LABEL-DETECTION { AUTOMATIC, MANUAL } could be installed.  If so, the default
must be MANUAL, that is, processing of labeled files occurs only if the user
asks for it explicitly.  For an arriving file, AUTOMATIC mode would detect the
BANNER, SYSID, and first LABEL and go into action as if the user had SET FILE
TYPE LABELED.  When sending a file, the program would avoid adding surrounding
label information if the user had already SET FILE TYPE LABELED.  This sort of
thing is obviously dangerous, and users should be cautioned about it.

EXAMPLE

A hypothetical example for VMS (ignore the indentation and line breaks);
the length fields are marked with L's:

                      LL  LL    LLLLLLLL     LL   LLLLLLLL
  KERMIT LABELED FILE:02D704VERS000000055.3-103FAB00000512<512 bytes here>
  03ACL00000723<723 bytes here>02DATA00000000<file's contents here>
  LL   LLLLLLLL                LL    LLLLLLLL

Note: FAB and ACL are not necessarily real labels.

POSTPROCESSING

Separate programs should be provided to translate a labeled file into a real
file, to be used in case the user forgot to SET FILE TYPE LABELED, or the file
was deposited by means other than Kermit.  Such a program might have two
options (or come in two forms): interpret the labels, and simply strip the
labels.

(End)

You can find the VMS implementation in the file ckvfio.c in the Kermit
archives.

- Frank

22-Mar-96  7:46:10-GMT,2888;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 02:45:54 -0500 (EST)
From: "Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit
To: [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
Message-id: <[e-mail]>
Organization: St. Peter's College, US
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 IN%"[e-mail]",IN%"[e-mail]",IN%"[e-mail]",TERRY
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> Second, I do hope you and Billy can get together on merging sources -- then
> only RSX and IAS are left out in the cold, and this might be sufficient
> incentive for somebody somewhere to merge that one in too.  (Terry, maybe you
> want to post this on DECUSserve?)

  I can, but there aren't many RSX people there (Alan Frisbie was the main
one, and he doesn't log in any more). Given the apathy shown by the VMS
crowd, I think we might as well wait for someone to show up and complain,
and then pin a "volunteer" button on them 8-)

> Third, as you may know, we gave up on trying to stuff complex file attributes
> into A packets, and we settled on a different approach, called "labeled file
> transfer", for transferring complex file objects like RMS indexed files, etc.
> This has been implemented in C-Kermit for VMS and in C-Kermit for OS/2.
>
> The trick would be to make Kermit-11 have a labeled mode just like VMS
> C-Kermit, and for the two to be able to interoperate.  Any thoughts on this,
> Terry?

  Yes. "Eeeew, yuck" 8-)

  Seriously, while VMS and RSTS/E both use RMS, they're very different ver-
sions of RMS, and any labeled transfer code would have to know about them
and what things aren't compatible. Even DEC doesn't have a complete list -
I found quite a few new ones when I added labeled support to VMS (as you
may remember, one of my test cases was sending a file with the filespec of
SPC11Z"user password"::DISK:[p,pn]filnam.typ and seeing what happened. There
is special-case code in VMS C-K for this particular stuff).

  Since the PDP-11 has a tight address space, I suggest we tell people to
put their VMS-to-RSTS and vice-versa files in BACKUP savesets (which are
compatible) and let the operating systems figure it out on the restore pass.

  As long as RSTS/E Kermit supports non-RMS as well as RMS files and doesn't
turn one into the other [unless asked to?], I think we'll be fine (and far
better off than we are now). John, thanks again for volunteering!

    Terry

10-Apr-96 22:35:24-GMT,2480;000000000011
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 15:28:09 PDT
From: "I am not a man, I AM A FREE NUMBER" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
Apparently-To: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Kermit for RT-11

Frank,

By way of introduction, I work for Mentec Inc, who bought the PDP-11 software
(operating systems / layered products etc) from Digital in '94.

We are looking into the possibility of releasing a new version of RT-11
(in all probability, the last)

A common request amongst the RT-11 user community is that we distribute a
copy of Kermit with new RT-11 distributions.  (In fact this applies to RSX
as well ... but that is not included in this request).  This request is in
part for convenience because most RT-11 systems are now DEC RX50 floppy or
TK50 distributed.   Users must find some other means to unpack Columbia's
distributions (Mentec has been approached many times to do this).

We have approached the author of K/RT (Billy Youdelman) and he too is keen
on this idea.  Billy's Kermit implementation was based on Brian Nelson's
Kermit-11, so presumably this would also require Brian's permission ?

We acknowledge that Columbia holds the distribution rights to the Kermit
implementations, but would like to obtain permission for its inclusion
in a toolkit for RT-11 to be distributed as an adjunct to the RT-11
distribution.  This would be as a no-additional cost inclusion to the user.

Please could you advise on whether Columbia might be prepared to permit
this distribution, and on whether we would need to approach Brian Nelson
(do you have a means to contact him?) ?

Thanks,


Stuart Brook

PDP-11 Software Engineering
Mentec Inc


ps Might Columbia be prepared to extend this permission to all the flavours
of Kermit for PDP-11s or might we have to pursue this on a case by case basis?

10-Apr-96 23:04:17-GMT,4024;000000000401
Received: (from fdc@localhost) by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA06286; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:02:15 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 19:02:14 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Stuart Brook <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for RT-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 96 15:28:09 PDT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> By way of introduction, I work for Mentec Inc, who bought the PDP-11 software
> (operating systems / layered products etc) from Digital in '94.
>
Hi, Glad to meet you -- speaking as one who has (or had) been using PDP-11s
since the DOS-11 days (and -7s and -8s before that), and who once ran a huge
RSTS installation at Columbia (but then graduated to -10s and -20s, then to
UNIX, then away from DEC altogether -- the old story...)

> We are looking into the possibility of releasing a new version of RT-11
> (in all probability, the last)
>
> A common request amongst the RT-11 user community is that we distribute a
> copy of Kermit with new RT-11 distributions.  (In fact this applies to RSX
> as well ... but that is not included in this request).  This request is in
> part for convenience because most RT-11 systems are now DEC RX50 floppy or
> TK50 distributed.   Users must find some other means to unpack Columbia's
> distributions (Mentec has been approached many times to do this).
>
> We have approached the author of K/RT (Billy Youdelman) and he too is keen
> on this idea.  Billy's Kermit implementation was based on Brian Nelson's
> Kermit-11, so presumably this would also require Brian's permission ?
>
Brian retired from Kermit-11 development and support many years ago.  However,
technically the source code does have a copyright notice on it that Brian put
there, so yes, we'll need to bring Brian in on this.

> We acknowledge that Columbia holds the distribution rights to the Kermit
> implementations, but would like to obtain permission for its inclusion
> in a toolkit for RT-11 to be distributed as an adjunct to the RT-11
> distribution.  This would be as a no-additional cost inclusion to the user.
>
> Please could you advise on whether Columbia might be prepared to permit
> this distribution, and on whether we would need to approach Brian Nelson
> (do you have a means to contact him?) ?
>
I'll see if I can raise him.  Meanwhile, there has been some resurgence of
interest in Kermit-11, and a new version seems to be in the works for RSTS;
i.e. folding RSTS support into KRT to make a new common version, and adding
some new features, etc -- I'm sure Billy told you about it.

I'm inclined to say "go ahead" since we obtain approximately zero revenue
from Kermit-11 distribution.

But I have to be careful.  First I think we do need to clear it with Brian.
Second, in all good conscience we should consider the impact, if any, on
DECUS, as I believe they had been making some money from distributing
Kermit-11 on weird media (i.e. media that we don't have).  But third, it might
set a bad precedent for us at Columbia.  How can we be so strict about not
letting commercial outfits distribute MS-DOS Kermit or C-Kermit, but then
turn around and let your company distribute Kermit-11?

Clearly there would need to be some form of license, and it would need to be
nonexclusive.  Whether you sell Kermit-11 or give it away would be up to you,
but I think Columbia would need to get something out of it, and probably also
Billy and/or Brian.  The first step is for me to get in touch with Brian.

> Might Columbia be prepared to extend this permission to all the flavours
> of Kermit for PDP-11s or might we have to pursue this on a case by case
> basis?
>
If we can come to an arrangement, it should also cover all versions of
Kermit-11 -- RSX and IAS (and TSX+, but that's not yours), whatever other
odd variants there are, e.g. for Pro-3xx's (Pro/RT?)...

I'll get back to when I hear from Brian or my attempts to reach him time out.

- Frank

11-Apr-96  0:39:48-GMT,3252;000000000011
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 17:26:18 PDT
From: "I am not a man, I AM A FREE NUMBER" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
Apparently-To: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for RT-11

Frank

Thanks for your reply ...

I don't think that DECUS should be a particular problem.  We have had
referrals both from Columbia (sorry ... I don't know who made the referrals)
and from DECUS to obtain Kermit-11 on usable media!

> But third, it might
>set a bad precedent for us at Columbia.  How can we be so strict about not
>letting commercial outfits distribute MS-DOS Kermit or C-Kermit, but then
>turn around and let your company distribute Kermit-11?

Firstly ... Full acknowledgement of Columbia, Brian and Billy would
have to be made on the kit, and that it is being distributed with Columbia's
permission solely as a benefit to users and without monetary benefit to
Mentec.

Billy has made a suggestion which I believe Mentec can accomodate and will
represent his permission and direct problem support.

As for benefits for Columbia, the immediate and obvious one is that you could
be relieved the overhead of producion (and potentially the maintenance
interface) for the Kermit-11 products.  You did imply that Columbia gets
virtually nothing from them now, so our doing the distribution for them would
not really change what is status quo.

If we were selling Kermit, clearly royalties to Columbia would be in order,
but this would add a level of complexity that would negate user benefits,
and make it potentially more work for us than it might be worth.

Any license to distribute would of course be non-exclusive, this would not
be the goal.  In this manner your distribution rights would be preserved,
and Mentec would in essence be acting as your agents, with some pro-active
distributions as well as on-demand distributions.  This makes sense for
a declining product base such as the PDP-11s, but certainly wouldn't for
the more active products like PCKermit or C-Kermits.

>If we can come to an arrangement, it should also cover all versions of
>Kermit-11 -- RSX and IAS (and TSX+, but that's not yours), whatever other
>odd variants there are, e.g. for Pro-3xx's (Pro/RT?)...

Makes a lot of sense ... I wasn't sure how you might want to approach it.

>I'll get back to when I hear from Brian or my attempts to reach him time out.

Great ... look forward to your response ...  At this stage, this is
exploratory, so these ideas are purely for working towards a possible
agreement, and are not committal on either Mentec, nor Columbia.


Stuart

17-Apr-96  0:21:07-GMT,3543;000000000001
Received: (from fdc@localhost) by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA08552; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:19:48 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 20:19:48 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "I am not a man, I AM A FREE NUMBER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kermit for RT-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 96 17:26:18 PDT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> Firstly ... Full acknowledgement of Columbia, Brian and Billy would
> have to be made on the kit, and that it is being distributed with Columbia's
> permission solely as a benefit to users and without monetary benefit to
> Mentec.
>
> Billy has made a suggestion which I believe Mentec can accomodate and will
> represent his permission and direct problem support.
>
> As for benefits for Columbia, the immediate and obvious one is that you
> could be relieved the overhead of producion (and potentially the maintenance
> interface) for the Kermit-11 products.  You did imply that Columbia gets
> virtually nothing from them now, so our doing the distribution for them
> would not really change what is status quo.
>
Well, virtually nothing is something on the order of $1000 a year in recent
years, so it's not *exactly* nothing.  These days, every little bit helps.

> If we were selling Kermit, clearly royalties to Columbia would be in order,
> but this would add a level of complexity that would negate user benefits,
> and make it potentially more work for us than it might be worth.
>
> Any license to distribute would of course be non-exclusive, this would not
> be the goal.  In this manner your distribution rights would be preserved,
> and Mentec would in essence be acting as your agents, with some pro-active
> distributions as well as on-demand distributions.  This makes sense for
> a declining product base such as the PDP-11s, but certainly wouldn't for
> the more active products like PCKermit or C-Kermits.
>
> >If we can come to an arrangement, it should also cover all versions of
> >Kermit-11 -- RSX and IAS (and TSX+, but that's not yours), whatever other
> >odd variants there are, e.g. for Pro-3xx's (Pro/RT?)...
>
> Makes a lot of sense ... I wasn't sure how you might want to approach it.
>
Brian says:

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 05:28:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Nelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>: Re: Kermit for RT-11]
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail]

Frank,

Sorry for the delay, I've been in the hospital for a few days. I have no
problem with including k11 with rt11, fine with me.

brian

      Brian Nelson
      VMS and Network Systems Programing
      [e-mail]
      2024 Sandown, Toledo, Oh 43615
      419.531.7592

So that's out of the way.  Of course you might want to get it writing from
him or something, that's up to you.

As for Columbia, I appreciate that this is a good thing in all ways but one,
namely the setting of precedents that might be hard for us to wiggle out of
later.  To get around this, I'd ask one or both of the following:

 1. Payment of an undisclosed (token) amount of money as a license fee.

 2. Whenever you distribute a product that contains Kermit-11, you also
    include a promotional flyer for other Kermit software -- after all,
    people who need Kermit-11 will probably need a Kemit program on the
    other end of the connection, and Columbia is where they should get
    it from.

Are we getting there?

- Frank

17-Apr-96  1:16:53-GMT,3246;000000000011
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 18:08:23 PDT
From: "I am not a man, I AM A FREE NUMBER" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail]
Apparently-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for RT-11

Hi Frank,

>As for Columbia, I appreciate that this is a good thing in all ways but one,
>namely the setting of precedents that might be hard for us to wiggle out of
>later.  To get around this, I'd ask one or both of the following:
>
> 1. Payment of an undisclosed (token) amount of money as a license fee.
>
> 2. Whenever you distribute a product that contains Kermit-11, you also
>    include a promotional flyer for other Kermit software -- after all,
>    people who need Kermit-11 will probably need a Kemit program on the
>    other end of the connection, and Columbia is where they should get
>    it from.
>
>Are we getting there?


I will forward this on to Mentec management ... when it comes to the monetary
side of the business, this is not my area ... I'm trying to co-ordinate a
product release from the technical side.

Just as a matter of curiosity what kind of "token" amount are you looking at ?
Are you looking at a one time fee or an annual fee etc ?

The promotional information for Kermit can certainly be included in kits
distributed and sold by Mentec ... I don't forsee a problem there.  BUT,
because of our business arrangement with Digital, Digital also sells the
product essentially as theirs.  We may have problems even getting mention in
the release notes for Digital kits.  Such promotional information can certainly
be included in readme info in the kit.

Would describing Mentec's position as a contracted agent to distribute kermit
for PDP-11s on Columbia's behalf help in the precedent setting, and technical
reasons could be provided for that ... e.g.ready to run on popular PDP-11 media?

That would then leave the only precedent as proactive distribution, and that
comes down to the fact that as many customers migrate to other platforms, it
will assist in that migration without having to bother Columbia or Mentec for
the product.

It is not as if Mentec is going to sell additional copies of any PDP-11
product solely because of the inclusion of Kermit!  In fact it is unlikely
that we'll sell more than a few copies to customers who don't have the
product now anyway!  So including Kermit is not going to give any competetive
edge ...  The only competition really is when the customer migrates to another
platform ... not if!

So, I'll pass this on to Mentec management.  I'll need some idea of what "token"
means also, and your reactions to how we provide promotional info for Columbia.


Stuart

17-Apr-96 18:54:08-GMT,2765;000000000001
Received: (from fdc@localhost) by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03193; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:52:47 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 14:52:47 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "I am not a man, I AM A FREE NUMBER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kermit for RT-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 16 Apr 96 18:08:23 PDT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I will forward this on to Mentec management ... when it comes to the monetary
> side of the business, this is not my area ... I'm trying to co-ordinate a
> product release from the technical side.
>
> Just as a matter of curiosity what kind of "token" amount are you looking at
> ?  Are you looking at a one time fee or an annual fee etc ?
>
How about a one-time fee of $500.00?

> The promotional information for Kermit can certainly be included in kits
> distributed and sold by Mentec ... I don't forsee a problem there.  BUT,
> because of our business arrangement with Digital, Digital also sells the
> product essentially as theirs.  We may have problems even getting mention in
> the release notes for Digital kits.  Such promotional information can
> certainly be included in readme info in the kit.
>
Whatever we can accomplish with Digital is to the good.  As you probably know,
Kermit pretty much grew up in the Digital marketplace.  They should be
receptive to the idea.  But if they won't stuff a flyer, then readme material
is OK too.

> Would describing Mentec's position as a contracted agent to distribute
> kermit for PDP-11s on Columbia's behalf help in the precedent setting, and
> technical reasons could be provided for that ... e.g.ready to run on popular
> PDP-11 media?
>
Sure.

> That would then leave the only precedent as proactive distribution, and that
> comes down to the fact that as many customers migrate to other platforms, it
> will assist in that migration without having to bother Columbia or Mentec
> for the product.
>
Right.  In fact, I have found that PDP-11 users tend to come to us in a panic
at migration time, begging for (say) RT-11 Kermit on an RX08, RK05, DECtape,
punched cards, or somesuch.  (I don't actually imagine that you have these
devices :-)   So this is definitely a good service, and a good deed, although
a bit melancholy, like being a pallbearer.

> So, I'll pass this on to Mentec management.  I'll need some idea of what
> "token" means also, and your reactions to how we provide promotional info
> for Columbia.
>
A flyer printed on paper would be best, so they actually encounter it
physically.  I can provide PostScript source.  Just laser-printing it would be
fine.  If you don't have a PostScript printer, I can even send the physical
flyers.

Sounds OK?

- Frank

26-Apr-96  3:59:11-GMT,3976;000000000011
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From: [e-mail] (Phil Budne)
Received: by csa.bu.edu (8.6.10/Spike-2.1)
    id XAA14248; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:56:59 -0400
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:56:59 -0400
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: misc

Hi,

I've seen several kermit postings from you in the last few days, which
made me think of a few items;

A few years ago I asked if the old documentation that had a simple C
kermit implementation was still available, and you said no.  Recently
I gained access to a 1/2" tape drive, and I dug out my old DUMPER and
BACKUP-10 tapes, and found the above mentioned files;

    home% gtar tzvf kerm.tar.gz
    drwxrwxr-x phil/phil         0 Apr 25 23:44 1996 kerm/
    -rw-rw---- phil/phil      1006 Oct 25 09:17 1982 kerm/conect.c
    -rw-rw---- phil/phil      3401 Oct 25 09:02 1982 kerm/io.c
    -rw-rw---- phil/phil      1349 Oct 25 08:59 1982 kerm/k.h
    -rw-rw-r-- phil/phil      7536 Jun 10 23:53 1981 kerm/cmd.mac
    -rw-rw-r-- phil/phil    127493 Jun 23 16:04 1983 kerm/kermit.mac
    -rw-rw-r-- phil/phil     98855 Apr 29 11:31 1983 kerm/proto.doc
    -rw-rw---- phil/phil      4037 Oct 25 09:08 1982 kerm/reciev.c
    -rw-rw-r-- phil/phil     60753 Apr  8 11:56 1983 kerm/rtkermit.pas
    -rw-rw---- phil/phil      4908 Oct 25 09:02 1982 kerm/send.c
    -rw-rw-r-- phil/phil    189560 May  4 23:09 1983 kerm/user.doc
    -rw-rw-r-- phil/phil    201981 May  4 23:20 1983 kerm/user.lpt
    -rw-rw---- phil/phil      1400 Oct 25 09:03 1982 kerm/util.c
    -rw-rw-r-- phil/phil      9029 Aug 14 19:59 1978 kerm/cmd.doc

Let me know if any of this is of any interest to you, and I'll
drop it via FTP...

Also On my tapes I found a copy of the chapter you wrote for the never
published book about PDP-10's by Les Earnest and Joe Dempster.  All of
the chapters I have have been made publicly available, except yours.
Les and Joe gave me permission to distribute them, IFF I got
permission from the authors, so I'm asking!

Here is the top of the file I have;

From:   GIDNEY::DEMPSTER  4-NOV-1988 10:27
To:     ARTUD2::DEMPSTER
Subj:   [Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>: Second draft...]

   ========

Date: 6 Nov 1988 1020-EST
From: "Joe Dempster, DTN 336.2023, AT&T 609.273.2023" <DEMPSTER@GIDNEY>
To: dempster@artud2
Subject: [Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>: Second draft...]
Message-ID: <"MS11(6044)+GLXLIB6(0)" 12444405453.197.30.67844 at GIDNEY>

- - - - - - - Begin message from: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
Received: from columbia.edu by TOPS20.DEC.COM with TCP; Sat 5 Nov 88 21:13:01-E
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Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1988 21:13:10 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "Joe Dempster, DTN 336.2023, AT&T 609.273.2023" <[e-mail]>
In-Reply-To: Your message of 18 Oct 1988 1310-EDT
Subject: Second draft...
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>

OK, here it again, updated according to your comments, and also polished up
in parts.  Let us know if it's OK.  - Frank & Chris

    THE RISE AND FALL AND RISE OF THE DECSYSTEM-20 AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY


                     Frank da Cruz and Christine Gianone

                           S E C O N D   D R A F T

                               November 7, 1988


-phil

P.S.  Rereading it, I don't recall ever having heard that the
DECSYSTEM-20 name was the result of a slip of the Caps Lock key (and I
worked at LCG in the 80's).



26-Apr-96 17:17:24-GMT,1859;000000000001
Received: (from fdc@localhost) by watsun.cc.columbia.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08416; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:17:14 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 13:17:13 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] (Phil Budne)
Subject: Re: misc
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:56:59 -0400
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> A few years ago I asked if the old documentation that had a simple C
> kermit implementation was still available, and you said no.  Recently
> I gained access to a 1/2" tape drive, and I dug out my old DUMPER and
> BACKUP-10 tapes, and found the above mentioned files;
> ...
> Let me know if any of this is of any interest to you, and I'll
> drop it via FTP...
>
Wow -- some of those files are 18 years old, and definitely long-lost here.
By all means tar them up (so as to preserve the dates) and drop them into
kermit/incoming on kermit.columbia.edu (login as anonymous).

> Also On my tapes I found a copy of the chapter you wrote for the never
> published book about PDP-10's by Les Earnest and Joe Dempster.  All of
> the chapters I have have been made publicly available, except yours.
> Les and Joe gave me permission to distribute them, IFF I got
> permission from the authors, so I'm asking!
>
OK, fine.  Just replace "Second Draft" with:

  Copyright (C) 1988, Frank da Cruz and Christine Gianone.
  All rights reserved.

(Just on the infinitesimal chance that it might ever find its way into a
book or magazine some day...)  And let me know where you put it.

> P.S.  Rereading it, I don't recall ever having heard that the
> DECSYSTEM-20 name was the result of a slip of the Caps Lock key (and I
> worked at LCG in the 80's).
>
I can't remember exactly who told me that, but it was definitely a DEC LCG
insider.  Maybe it was a joke but they did say it.

- Frank

 2-May-96  6:42:22-GMT,2735;000000000411
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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:41:59 +0100
To: [e-mail]
From: Sasha Cvetkovic <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kermit on PDP

Hi there,

I have a problem using Kermit on a PDP (RSX-11) !!!
Please do not ask why I am using these old machines. The PDP
is connected to a "robot" and the old SW for the robot-control
is written in PDP-assembler (I am only a simple user, the author
is not "known") etc. etc.

The problem is the following:
- I am running Kermit on PDP (Kermit version 1989/90 or so) in
server mode. A PC gets the data via kermit from the PDP and transfers
those data to more decent machines (DEC Alpha) for further processing.
- When running kermit in server mode on a PDP machine the input on
the PDP terminal where Kermit was started is "blocked" for input. Again,
do not ask why I can not use another terminal for other input... all
serial inputs are reserved for the robot-control... I can not invest more
money in old HW

Questions:
- Can I start Kermit in server mode on a PDP so that it runs as a subprocess in
background  so that on the SAME terminal another tasks (MCR commands) may be
executed?
- Can I start easily Kermit in a subprocess using MCR CMDs so that it runs
constantly in a background so that...? On a VAX machine it would be easy -->
SUBMIT, SPAWN... what is the equivalent on PDP/RSX/MCR

The main problem is that I do not have access to RSX documentation and in
the Kermit documentation (for PDP) I could not find a way to solve the problem.

Can you help me? Or can you forward my mail to somebody knowing more
about PDPs using Kermit? It is probably a very simple solution if one knows
the right commands.

Regards Sasha

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| SYSECA Systems Engineering Inc.
| Gubelstrasse 11
| CH-6300 Z u g
| Switzerland
|
| Phone: [phone]
| Fax:   [phone]
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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 2-May-96  6:46:03-GMT,2712;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:45:46 +0100
To: [e-mail]
From: Sasha Cvetkovic <[e-mail]>

Hi there,

I have a problem using Kermit on a PDP (RSX-11) !!!
Please do not ask why I am using these old machines. The PDP
is connected to a "robot" and the old SW for the robot-control
is written in PDP-assembler (I am only a simple user, the author
is not "known") etc. etc.

The problem is the following:
- I am running Kermit on PDP (Kermit version 1989/90 or so) in
server mode. A PC gets the data via kermit from the PDP and transfers
those data to more decent machines (DEC Alpha) for further processing.
- When running kermit in server mode on a PDP machine the input on
the PDP terminal where Kermit was started is "blocked" for input. Again,
do not ask why I can not use another terminal for other input... all
serial inputs are reserved for the robot-control... I can not invest more
money in old HW

Questions:
- Can I start Kermit in server mode on a PDP so that it runs as a subprocess in
background  so that on the SAME terminal another tasks (MCR commands) may be
executed?
- Can I start easily Kermit in a subprocess using MCR CMDs so that it runs
constantly in a background so that...? On a VAX machine it would be easy -->
SUBMIT, SPAWN... what is the equivalent on PDP/RSX/MCR

The main problem is that I do not have access to RSX documentation and in
the Kermit documentation (for PDP) I could not find a way to solve the problem.

Can you help me? Or can you forward my mail to somebody knowing more
about PDPs using Kermit? It is probably a very simple solution if one knows
the right commands.

Regards Sasha

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
| SYSECA Systems Engineering Inc.
| Gubelstrasse 11
| CH-6300 Z u g
| Switzerland
|
| Phone: [phone]
| Fax:   [phone]
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------


 2-May-96 13:09:39-GMT,1363;000000000011
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Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:09:37 -0400
From: Bob Sydnor <[e-mail]>
Organization: Independent Data Processing
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References: <[e-mail]>
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> However, in the meantime, we're investigating some of the more esoteric
> "ANSI"-based "standards" like SCO ANSI and AT386, and we find that we might
> still need to preserve a degree of user control of color treatment in various
> situations, so not to worry :-)
>
> - Frank

OK, I'll wait and see! Thanks for responding to my questions. Its a real
honor to talk with the real "Kermit guy"! We've used Kermit for years
and years on PDP's, Vaxes and Alpha's and PC's. You can't find a better
program for any price. I look forward to using Kermit95. I'm
sending my order in today. Cheers.

 3-May-96 13:48:55-GMT,1037;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 09:49:00 -0400
From: Bob Sydnor <[e-mail]>
Organization: Independent Data Processing
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> Thanks!  Btw, you don't happen to still have any PDP-11s around, do you?
> If so, which OS's?  There seems to be a revival of interest in PDP-11
> Kermit...

Just a lone PDP 11/83 running RSTS/E V9.6-11. If it's of any use to you,
I'll offer it as a BETA site.
Thx.

 3-May-96 15:35:36-GMT,462;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 3 May 96 11:35:29 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Kermit 11
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

Hi John.  Just touching base...  Did anything come of your idea to upgrade
the RSTS version of Kermit-11 and integrate it with KRT?

Thanks!

- Frank

 3-May-96 18:28:24-GMT,1550;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 14:28:27 -0400
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
From: John Santos <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kermit 11

Hi -

At 11:35 AM 5/3/96 EDT, Frank da Cruz wrote:
>Hi John.  Just touching base...  Did anything come of your idea to upgrade
>the RSTS version of Kermit-11 and integrate it with KRT?
>
>Thanks!
>
>- Frank
>

        Yup,but very slowly.  I have my changes integrated into about 2/3
of Billy Youdelman's source files for the new version of KRT which I downloaded
about two months ago, so at this rate, I should be done in a month!  When
that's done, I'll see what he's updated since, and re-integrate the changes
(which shouldn't take very long), and get them off to anyone who wants to
test (Kelvin Smith has volunteer to be a test site, and I think a few other
people have expressed interest; I'll have to check my mail.)  Anyway, I
should have something in about a month.
John Santos


 3-May-96 13:48:55-GMT,1037;000000000405
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> Thanks!  Btw, you don't happen to still have any PDP-11s around, do you?
> If so, which OS's?  There seems to be a revival of interest in PDP-11
> Kermit...

Just a lone PDP 11/83 running RSTS/E V9.6-11. If it's of any use to you,
I'll offer it as a BETA site.
Thx.

 8-May-96  0:20:52-GMT,911;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 20:20:49 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: [Bob Sydnor <[e-mail]>: Re: Kermit95 feature question]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

John -- in case you want to unleash it on any unsuspecting testers...

Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 09:49:00 -0400
From: Bob Sydnor <[e-mail]>
Organization: Independent Data Processing
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kermit95 feature question

> Thanks!  Btw, you don't happen to still have any PDP-11s around, do you?
> If so, which OS's?  There seems to be a revival of interest in PDP-11
> Kermit...

Just a lone PDP 11/83 running RSTS/E V9.6-11. If it's of any use to you,
I'll offer it as a BETA site.
Thx.


 8-May-96 21:58:38-GMT,3226;000000000001
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 <[e-mail]>; Wed, 8 May 1996 17:58:16 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 17:58:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail]
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        [e-mail]
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Hi all -

John Santos <[e-mail]> writes -

>         Some of the rough edges are listed in krtbug.lst:
>
>         KRT bug list for RSTS/E V3.63 -- 06May96
> 1) Odd address trap after too many NAKs?  (See item 2)

This sounds like one buffer on the stack overruning another buffer.
I thought I'd more than generously sized all these, but I'll go
through it all again.  This has not been any problem under RT-11.

Running out of stack will be very obvious, I put it directly next
to the prompt string buffer so it'll be the first thing overwritten.

> 2) Max receive size for binary files: 600 < max-packet < 1920

Everything should size ok here via MAXLNG in KRTMAC.MAC, up until
some segment exceeds 4096 words in size.  Under RT it will still
link but of course it won't run, at least not for long, if it can
even be loaded in the first place.  It may be necessary to shuffle
some routines around to different overlays if this is the problem
here.

> 3) CTRL/Z acts WEIRD in command mode.

I don't know what this could be.  Under RT it's ok.

> 4) Help seems to have some memory of the last opened file, checks it
>    first and declares it wrong version before finding the real help file.

This is the hlpopn subroutine in KRTHLP.MAC - it writes a file name
into srcnam and then calls the file opener.  Perhaps the fparse sub-
routine in KRTRMS.MAC needs some RSTS-specific fix?

> 5) Only I&D-space version so far.
> 6) Hang up goes into infinite loop.

Under RT-11 I had to do timed waits one tick at a time.  This is
so there remains some means to abort it - there is no way to catch
a ^C except between waits.  This may be contributing to this
problem though, under RT there is a means to detect whether the
line time clock is 50Hz or 60Hz - I get that and stuff it into
a reg named clkflg, which is then divided by 2 for a 1/2 sec wait.

> I haven't checked back in with Billy's system
> to see if there are any updates to his stuff since I downloaded the
> version I started with.  To build, you'll need the V03.63 sources from
> Billy's machine.

These files are still present and will remain available until
the actual release of KRT V3.63, which I expect around June 1st.
This is all quite stable, there's been no reported bug since
Feb. 19th.  The bulk of the work left is documentation..

Regards, and Thanks!

Billy Y..


23-Dec-96 20:23:11-GMT,5037;000000000001
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Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:23:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]

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From: "John A. Santos" <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: comp.os.rsts
Subject: Re: Kermit for RSTS Version 9 for PDP11
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 01:45:40 -0500
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Xref: news.columbia.edu comp.os.rsts:719


On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Andrew Newsome wrote:

> My colleague & I are trying to extract data from a PDP11 running
> RSTS Version 9. The machine has a quarter inch Tape only QIC 02.
> If anyone could assist us in obtaining a copy of Kermit on QIC 02
> tape for the machine it would be greatly appreciated. We do not have
> an inhouse PDP11. Columbia Uni have copies I believe but obviously
> we can't transfer them onto the machine.
>
> Any help would be much appreciated.
> Cheer Andy. Have a good 97!
>
> --
> Andrew Newsome
>
>
The Columbia site contains both binary and "hexified" versions of the
RSTS/E Kermit programs.  The "hexified" version is the binary .TSK file
run through a program that converts it to a format consisting only of
printable ASCII 7-bit characters (and spaces and CRLF's).  It should be
possible to download this as a pure text file, by, for example downloading
them to a PC (or anything else that supports Kermit, including VMS, UNIX,
or another RSTS/E, RT-11 or RSX system), and then log into
the RSTS/E system from the PC, run PIP on the RSTS/E system, and send it
the .HEX file.

For example, PIP K11.HEX=KB:.  Then escape back to the local Kermit, and
send the hex file (e.g. C-Kermit> TRANSMIT K11.HEX)  When the transfer
completes, you will need to reconnect to the RSTS/E system, type a ctrl/Z
to PIP to get it to close the output file and exit.  Do the same thing for
source of the conversion program, K11HEX.MAC.

Then compile and link K11HEX.MAC, and run it to convert the .HEX file back
to a .TSK file

$ macro/rt11 k11hex
$ link/rt11 k11hex
$ run k11hex
*k11.tsk=k11.hex
All done

$ set file/prot=104 k11.tsk

Once you have Kermit on the system, I think it would be a good idea to
test it and simultaneously verify you got a good download of the .HEX
file by using Kermit to download the .TSK file in binary mode.

The older version of Kermit for RSTS is K11.  It may be found in
/kermit/b/k11hex.mac    (the source for the de-hexifying program.)
/kermit/b/k11.hex       (the hexified generic version for RSTS/E.)
/kermit/b/bin/k11.tsk   (The binary generic version.)
/kermit/b/bin/k11id.tsk (An I&D space version.  Recommended as it allows
larger buffer sizes, but it only works if your hardware supports I&D space.
(PDP-11/70, 11/45, 11/60(?), 11/44, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93, 11/94)  In
particular, it won't work on 11/23 and 11/24 (F11 chip) systems.  There
doesn't seem to be a hexified version of k11id at Columbia.)

There is a new version of Kermit for RSTS/E on the Columbia FTP site,
based on Billy Yodelman's KRT for RT-11.  All the wonderful new features
in it are Billy's work; all the bugs and restrictions in the RSTS/E version
are mine.

It should have much better performance than K11 in most circumstances, but
not all the features work yet in RSTS/E.  In particular, dialing doesn't
work very well.  You can connect to a Hayes-compatible (or other) modem,
and manually send AT commands (or what ever is appropriate), or blindly
dial by forcing a text string to the modem, but there are serious timing
problems in the built-in, modem-aware dialing commands, that prevent the
"DIAL" command from working most of the time.

It is still very much a test version

The KRT versions are

/kermit/test/pdp11/krthex.mac   (source for dehexifying program)
/kermit/test/pdp11/krtid.tsk    (binary I&D version)
/kermit/test/pdp11/krtid.hex    (hexified I&D version)
/kermit/test/pdp11/krthlp.hlp    (online help file, which is invaluable,
even though it only reflects the RT-11 version.)

I haven't been able to get the non-I&D version to link yet; it is a
matter of playing with the overlay structure and making compromises
about buffer sizes until it fits in 32K words.  If anyone who understands
TKB overlays better than I do wants to take a whack at it, they are
welcome!

Sources for both the K11 version and the KRT version are also on the
Columbia system, so you could also try downloading those and rebuilding
it on the destination RSTS system.

- John Santos


23-Dec-96 20:23:51-GMT,2868;000000000001
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Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:23:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (PDP-11 Trainee Guru)
Newsgroups: comp.os.rsts
Subject: Re: Kermit for RSTS Version 9 for PDP11
Message-ID: <1996Dec23.234457.16810@decus>
Date: 23 Dec 96 23:44:57 AEST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: DECUS Australia
Lines: 44
Xref: news.columbia.edu comp.os.rsts:722

In article <[e-mail]>, "John A. Santos" <[e-mail]> writes:
> On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Andrew Newsome wrote:
>
>> My colleague & I are trying to extract data from a PDP11 running
>> RSTS Version 9. The machine has a quarter inch Tape only QIC 02.
>>...[deletion]
>> --
>>
> The Columbia site contains both binary and "hexified" versions of the
> RSTS/E Kermit programs.  The "hexified" version is the binary .TSK file
> run through a program that converts it to a format consisting only of
> printable ASCII 7-bit characters (and spaces and CRLF's).  It should be
> possible to download this as a pure text file, by, for example downloading
> them to a PC (or anything else that supports Kermit, including VMS, UNIX,
> or another RSTS/E, RT-11 or RSX system), and then log into
> the RSTS/E system from the PC, run PIP on the RSTS/E system, and send it
> the .HEX file.
>...[another deletion]
>
> - John Santos
--
    Thanks John for that informative and concise update on RSTS KERMIT.

    My problem is somewhat stranger. I have a client currently trying
    to update from RSTS/E v7.07 on an 11/44 with RK06s (no tapes),
    to RSTS/E v9.6 on an 11/73 (with K11 and KERMIT).

    I have been looking for an older version of KERMIT to run under
    v7.07 which may or may not have Multiple Private Delimiters, etc.

    I guess I am looking for confirmation that Kermit would NOT run
    on any RSTS/E version before v7.2 (if my reading of the DECUS
    catalog notes, etc is correct).

    On thinking about your advice earlier, I think I might be able
    to use HEX and DEHEX to copy a batch of .TSK and .DAT files.
    Is this a feasible solution if Kermit is not available.


Regards,   John G.         (aka 'megaJOHN')  ..
v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-v-
 John Geremin,  PDP-11 Support Consultant,  MEGATRONICS, 018-406 365.
 John Geremin,  Treasurer,  Australian COMPUTER MUSEUM Society Inc.
-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^

23-Jan-97  1:38:53-GMT,3449;000000000011
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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:39:12 -0500
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Attributes packets with sliding windows

Sorry to bother you, if you have time I have a dumb question whose answer I
can't find in any of the docs:

What is the correct way to handle the boundary between A packets and D
packets when sliding windows are active?  The sliding windows section in
KPROTO.DOC makes no mention of attribute packets in its list of the 5
stages of sending a file.  It seems to me that either the A packets count
as part of the transfer initialization so they should proceed in stop 'n wait
mode, or else they count sort of like file data (since they come after the
F packet) and should participate in the sliding windows deal (even though of
course they aren't really written to disk during a window turn).

If A packets are handled stop/wait style then at least in my implementation,
that means I would need the ability to "look ahead" one packet to see whether
the next one is another A packet or whether it's time to fire up the routine
that does all the juggling with the window table, which would be an ugly hack.
On the other hand, including the A packets in the sliding windows means having
something other that just D packets in the window table, which seems a little
inelegant.  Please enlighten me!

FYI my application is upgrading my ancient (original version started 11/84)
server-only Kermit for PDP-11/RT-11 to handle sliding windows and long packets
(K11 apparently still has no SWC and anyway I couldn't get it to work on my
11/34a with RT-11 V4.0).  The plan then is to have a conditional assembly that
produces a stand-alone server-only Kermit that runs on bare hardware and knows
how to talk to all the common disk controllers itself so that users can
download raw disk images for use with PDP-11 emulators (I've written one which
I plan to release commercially Real Soon Now) in case their available Kermit/OS
combination (if any) doesn't provide a way to read disks in non-file-structured
mode -- AFAIK there isn't even a Kermit available for MUMPS, not surprising
considering it has no concept of files.

I also wanted to ask, is anyone already working on upgrading Kermit-20?  A
couple of years ago I did some work on it (using Mark Crispin's 2020 via the
net) to make it transmit (but not receive) attribute packets, since that's
only half the job I didn't bother to submit my changes to you, but now that
XKL is giving out demo accounts I was thinking of finishing the job (Crispin
no longer has his machine accessible to the net and anyway assembling K20 on
a 2020 takes half an hour!).  But not if someone else is already doing it!
As I remember it needs a lot of work, I believe it didn't bother to
distinguish between parameters that were set by the user, and parameters that
resulted from the SEND-INIT/ACK negotiation, so user commands tended to be
permanently forgotten if a remote system countermanded them.

Thanks,   John Wilson    (formerly [e-mail], I've bugged you before)

23-Jan-97 16:37:33-GMT,4112;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 11:37:26 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Attributes packets with sliding windows
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:39:12 -0500
Cc: John Santos <[e-mail]>, Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> Sorry to bother you, if you have time I have a dumb question whose answer I
> can't find in any of the docs:
>
> What is the correct way to handle the boundary between A packets and D
> packets when sliding windows are active?
>
Only data packets are windowed.  That's because the file receiver might refuse
a file based on an attribute, and it would be silly if the receiver didn't
find out about it until after sending a windowful of data packets.

> The sliding windows section in
> KPROTO.DOC makes no mention of attribute packets in its list of the 5
> stages of sending a file.
>
KPROTO.DOC is pretty ancient.  The Kermit book is a better spec.

> If A packets are handled stop/wait style then at least in my implementation,
> that means I would need the ability to "look ahead" one packet...
>
Exactly.  You need a special case for the first data packet.  The protocol also
now defines an "end of attributes" attribute ("@") that appears as the final
attribute in the final attribute packet, but it is not universally used so you
should not depend on it.

> FYI my application is upgrading my ancient (original version started 11/84)
> server-only Kermit for PDP-11/RT-11 to handle sliding windows and long
> packets (K11 apparently still has no SWC and anyway I couldn't get it to
> work on my 11/34a with RT-11 V4.0).  The plan then is to have a conditional
> assembly that produces a stand-alone server-only Kermit that runs on bare
> hardware and knows how to talk to all the common disk controllers itself so
> that users can download raw disk images for use with PDP-11 emulators (I've
> written one which I plan to release commercially Real Soon Now) in case
> their available Kermit/OS combination (if any) doesn't provide a way to read
> disks in non-file-structured mode -- AFAIK there isn't even a Kermit
> available for MUMPS, not surprising considering it has no concept of files.
>
This is very interesting -- unlike your PDP-11 emulator, I assume your Kermit
code will be given back to us as an upgrade to the current PDP-11 version(s)?
Anyway, I wish you had contacted me earlier about this because at least two
other people have been working on PDP-11 Kermit and there has probably been a
lot of unnecessary duplication of effort.  I'm cc'ing them on this in hopes
you will all get together and merge your stuff.  (Note: Brian Nelson is out of
the picture now.)

> I also wanted to ask, is anyone already working on upgrading Kermit-20?
>
Until you sent this message, I was unaware that anybody had touched it since
January 1988 (when our last DEC-20 was turned off).

> A couple of years ago I did some work on it (using Mark Crispin's 2020 via
> the net) to make it transmit (but not receive) attribute packets, since
> that's only half the job I didn't bother to submit my changes to you, but
> now that XKL is giving out demo accounts...
>
What is XKL?

> I was thinking of finishing the job (Crispin no longer has his machine
> accessible to the net and anyway assembling K20 on a 2020 takes half an
> hour!).  But not if someone else is already doing it!
>
Don't worry -- there's little chance of that.

> As I remember it
> needs a lot of work, I believe it didn't bother to distinguish between
> parameters that were set by the user, and parameters that resulted from the
> SEND-INIT/ACK negotiation, so user commands tended to be permanently
> forgotten if a remote system countermanded them.
>
Right -- that sort of thing needs a lot of attention.  It can become very
confusing.

> Thanks,   John Wilson    (formerly [e-mail], I've bugged you before)
>
About what?  :-)

- Frank

23-Jan-97 21:44:08-GMT,6888;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:43:18 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Attributes packets with sliding windows
In-reply-to: "Message from FdC dated Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:37:26 -0500 (EST)"
 <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

> > FYI my application is upgrading my ancient (original version started 11/84)
> > server-only Kermit for PDP-11/RT-11 to handle sliding windows and long
> > packets (K11 apparently still has no SWC and anyway I couldn't get it to
> > work on my 11/34a with RT-11 V4.0).

I'm one of the two other people mentioned are working on the PDP-11
Kermit (KRT).  I haven't done sliding windows yet as that's a fairly
big job and I've been somewhat overloaded with work for almost a year
now.  I'll append a news article regarding this that I think will be
useful to you which I saved in pereperation for this.

As for RT-11 V4, KRT will run under the FB monitor and there is
another older Kermit (kermit.columbia.edu:/kermit/b/rtk*) that
only runs under the SJ monitor.  RTK uses in-line code to talk
to the serial interface only - it doesn't use the console port.
KRT does and also comes with its own KM (Kermit Modem) comm
handler.

> > in case
> > their available Kermit/OS combination (if any) doesn't provide a way to read
> > disks in non-file-structured mode

KRT can be patched to do this - it wouldn't be very difficult.

> [...] at least two
> other people have been working on PDP-11 Kermit and there has probably been a
> lot of unnecessary duplication of effort.  I'm cc'ing them on this in hopes
> you will all get together and merge your stuff.

I'd be interested in what you do for sliding windows and then
if there's any help I can offer please feel free to ask.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
Maintainer of the RT-11 KRT Kermit

Newsgroups: comp.dcom.modems
Subject: Re: will zmodem do sliding window?
>From: [e-mail] (Joe Doupnik)
Date: 29 Mar 93 19:54:13 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
(Lawrence Kirby) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>There is also a -w option that specifies a window size in bytes.  I've
>>also tried this with no particular apparent effect.  The problems I am
>>having do not seem to be corrected by this, and since I believe a true
>>sliding window scheme with well selected window size and count will solve
>>my problems, I suspect that -w also does not do sliding window.  Does
>>anyone know what it does?
>
> Yes, it should do. It certainly does with the sz I have. If I set it to about
> 3K I get a full speed transfer which works over links which don't support flow
> control and otherwise fail in ZMODEM's default mode.
>
>>The problem I am having is that sz never waits for any acknoledgement
>>except the end of file.  It blasts data out until the network buffers
>>are full (sometimes over 100K).  Once any error occurs on the line (and
>>they do every now and then for reasons not certainly determined yet),
>>the receiving program requests a resend.  The problem with the zmodem
>>protocol seems to be that all the buffered data following the bad packet
>>(or subpacket) is discarded (bad idea) until the requested resend shows
>>up.  The data that was discarded is sent again from that point (why?).
>>I've scripted sz and seen this behaviour.
>
> Yes, ZMODEM does this - it greatly simplifies the protocol. On an error the
> receiver simply has to tell the sender what point in the file to continue from.
> Kermit sliding windows does things the way you want but they had to write
> their own language to generate all of the necessary state transitions!

    Well, not really. The basic code was done for MS-DOS Kermit and
that's in assembler. C Kermit uses a cutdown version of LEX, named Wart, which
is consistent with C Kermit's design and the s/w protocol is taken from
MSK.
    There are two classical sliding windows algorithms: "go back to N"
and "selective repeat." The former says go back to the last good pkt and
repeat from the next, which means the receiver can get by with one buffer if
it's fast enough. This works ok on low error rate channels, as noted below.
Selective repeat accepts packets out of order and fills in holes as necessary.
The receiver needs a window's worth of buffers and the strategy is strong when
the wire is weak. MSK and CK use selective repeat. Selective repeat is not
at all difficult, once one figures out a proper approach, but that figuring
out discourages many writers. The algorithm in the book "Kermit, a file
transfer protocol" by Frank da Cruz is NOT what we use today, though it can
interoperate with it. I like to think that we use a rather good implementation
of selective repeat, but I'm biased.
    Variations exist, such as tell me only if things go wrong, and tell
me only now and then, both attempting to reduce time to prepare ACKs (small
actually). These sparse-ACK schemes require much resending when errors occur.

> ZMODEM is designed to work over low latency and/or low error rate links.
> Given that it does a good job.
>
>>Is there any way I can get this fixed?  Or is the zmodem protocol
>>hopelessly defective for these highly buffered data paths?
>
> Why are you getting errors in these highly buffered data paths?
>
>>It seems to me that the best solution would be a sliding window scheme
>>where N packets are sent, and the sender waits until the first one is
>>acknowledged.  Once the first is acknowledged, then the next packet is
>>sent.  The number of packets ever in the pipe is N, and the size of the
>>packets should also be selectable.  I would want to tune these to about
>>N=8 and L=1024 for the first attempt.

    Try this with Kermits. The MSK coming out shortly has increased
capacity to use up to 31 window slots and packets up to 9KB, all at once
if you have the memory, so you can fill most pipelines. C Kermit can be
commanded to the same capacity. They do what you describe above.
    Joe D.

>>So, should I spend my time trying to get the zmodem programs to work,
>>or should I spend my time developing a replacement protocol?
>
> ZMODEM is quite capable of doing this. Whether your implementation can be
> told to do it is another matter.


23-Jan-97 19:00:34-GMT,3971;000000000015
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:59:43 -0500
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Attributes packets with sliding windows
Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail]

(whoops, sorry about that first msg, I was shooting for ^C and hit ^D)

>> If A packets are handled stop/wait style then at least in my implementation,
>> that means I would need the ability to "look ahead" one packet...
>>
>Exactly.  You need a special case for the first data packet.  The protocol also
>now defines an "end of attributes" attribute ("@") that appears as the final
>attribute in the final attribute packet, but it is not universally used so you
>should not depend on it.

The answer I was looking for ... thanks!

Another quickie -- does MAXLX1/MAXLX2 from the SEND-INIT exchange specify the
maximum LENX1/LENX2 value, or the actual max packet length (which is 6 bytes
longer due to the header)?  I'm assuming it's LENX1/LENX2 (since that's
consistant with MAXL specifying the max LEN value even though a regular
packet is one byte longer) and that doesn't seem to annoy MS-Kermit, but I
want to make sure I'm doing it right.

>This is very interesting -- unlike your PDP-11 emulator, I assume your Kermit
>code will be given back to us as an upgrade to the current PDP-11 version(s)?
>Anyway, I wish you had contacted me earlier about this because at least two
>other people have been working on PDP-11 Kermit and there has probably been a
>lot of unnecessary duplication of effort.  I'm cc'ing them on this in hopes
>you will all get together and merge your stuff.  (Note: Brian Nelson is out of
>the picture now.)

I assumed you wouldn't want my code because it has nothing at all to do with
K11 or KRT (and except for SWC has a tiny subset of their features), it's an
outgrowth of Kermits I wrote on my own for RT-11 and RSTS/E in the mid-80s.
The last thing anyone needs is *another* "official" Kermit for the PDP-11!
So I'm just targeting the specific cases of running stand-alone and accessing
non-file-structured devices since those are my main problems in life, you
wouldn't believe some of the flips & twists people have had to do to get
bootable disk images.  Everyone is welcome to any code that might be useful
though, once I've finished all the nasty stuff (like using extended memory
and/or swap files for cases when SWC+LONGP results in more buffers than will
fit in memory) I'll be putting it up in ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rt11.

>What is XKL?

XKL is Len Bosack's (former Cisco guy) company in Redmond WA that builds the
ToaD-1, which is the end-all PDP-10 clone.  Faster than a KL10 (how much
depends on whom you ask), 4 ethernet ports, I forget how many SCSI channels,
and they've done all kinds of work on upgrading TOPS-20 and porting useful
stuff to it.  But the copy of K20 on their demo machine looks untouched.

>> Thanks,   John Wilson    (formerly [e-mail], I've bugged you before)
>>
>About what?  :-)

More pesky protocol questions, in '93 I got about halfway through writing
a new PDP-10 Kermit for ITS (the bizarre one it has is written in Lisp and
doesn't work at all, at least on the machine I had running), before the
company I was working for self-destructed and their KS10 got shut down (the
disk drive was my own though, so one of these days...), and also did some
work on a multithreaded background Kermit for DOS (which you didn't like
because MS-Kermit already exists and is very cool).  Anyway I wanted to give
you a chance to ignore me in case I was enough of a pest last time to stick
in your memory!  :-)

John Wilson

11-Jul-97 19:28:08-GMT,5187;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:15:13 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for micro/rsx v3.1 base level 24C
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:04:03 -0400 (EDT)"
 <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

> > He directed me to
> > ftp://ftp.columbia.edu/kermit/b/, where I became overwhelmed by the
> > choice of files to download. I was looking for k11pos.tsk...
> >
> That might be for P/OS but not RSX.  Or maybe not.

This probably is P/OS specific.  Having written a communications handler
(driver) for this hardware and RT-11 I can at least say that part of the
hardware is completely different from anything found in a 'real' PDP-11.

> Nothing is ever as simple as we'd like it to be.  As you can see, we have
> quite a lot of Kermit-11 binaries in the kermit/bin area.  The most sense I
> have ever been able to make out of them is as follows (from the kermit/bin
> READ.ME file):

>   k11.tsk    - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSTS/E 8.0 or later
>   k11nrs.tsk - Ditto, but not linked with RMSRES
>   k11id.tsk  - Ditto, but uses I&D space
>   k11idm.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX11M+ or Micro/RSX
>   k11pos.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX11M+, Micro/RSX, or P/OS
>   k11rsx.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX, not linked with RMSRES
>   k11sml.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 RSX11M, small executable, tightly overlaid
>   k11xm.sav  - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RT11 XM and TSX+

There are also .odl files for RSX which I believe are required to install
and/or use the actual task images.  Unfortunately MY RSX knowledge is very
limited.  I believe you'll need either k11rsx.tsx or k11sml.tsx, depending
on how much memory you have available to load the image and run it.

> I'd love to see the RSX version updated, and there is definitely some strong
> (but sporadic) interest in having a fixed-up and updated version, but to date
> nobody has been able to do the job.  I'm copying this to the DEC newsgroup
> in case it turns up any hitherto unknown RSX aficionados.

I believe Johnny Billquist at Upsala University in Sweeden is working on
an RSX Kermit - I don't have his email address handy but he does read the
alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroups and should be easy to find
there.

I'm also appending my followup to the news article discussing this.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

==============================

Path: MIX.COM!sluggy
Subject: Re: PC ---> PDP-11 micro/RSX problems
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.misc
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Billy's Place

[e-mail] writes:

> Does anyone have any knowledge about using KERMIT-11 (k11pos T3.50, 2nd.
> April 1986 (long packet support - whatever that means!),  under
> micro/RSX

This is a somewhat older version of Kermit-11 - it may be the newer one
(T3.60) will do better here.  This is available by anonymous ftp from
kermit.columbia.edu in the kermit/b directory.  If getting it on to the
PDP-11 is a problem you may need to transfer and then decode a hex
encoded version of the K11 image.  Instructions for doing this are in
a file in the same directory named krthex.mac - this concerns RT-11 so
you'll need to determine how to get PIP (a utility program) to accept
input from the terminal (a rather minor detail).  The hex encoded images
have the file extension .hex - also k11pos is I believe for the Pro-300
series of PC-type systems DEC built in the mid-1980s so it may be some
other assembly of Kermit-11 would do better on a real PDP-11.

I've been maintaining and updating the RT-11 version of this for some
years now and recall various comments in the code regarding problems
with things in RSX changing as new versions of that were released.
You'll likely be able to find some people familiar with RSX in the
alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroups.  In particular Johnny
Billquist at Upsala University in Sweeden may be familiar with what
will run properly in this case, or know what is necessary to fix it.

Long packet support means this Kermit is capable of using packets
greater than 94 bytes long.  I beleive the upper limit in the version
you have is 600 bytes.  This isn't much by today's standards but every
little bit helps.  To enable use of long packets on Kermit-11 you'll
need to SET RECEIVE PACKET-LENGTH 600.

Billy Y..

12-Jul-97 16:59:28-GMT,3245;000000000001
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From: [e-mail] (Tim Shoppa)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.misc,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Kermit for micro/rsx v3.1 base level 24C
Date: 12 Jul 1997 16:18:15 GMT
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Xref: news.columbia.edu comp.protocols.kermit.misc:7321 vmsnet.pdp-11:7851 alt.sys.pdp11:2409

In article <[e-mail]>,
Kermit Software Support <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Nothing is ever as simple as we'd like it to be.  As you can see, we have
>quite a lot of Kermit-11 binaries in the kermit/bin area.  The most sense I
>have ever been able to make out of them is as follows (from the kermit/bin
>READ.ME file):
>
>  k11.tsk    - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSTS/E 8.0 or later
>  k11nrs.tsk - Ditto, but not linked with RMSRES
>  k11id.tsk  - Ditto, but uses I&D space
>  k11idm.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX11M+ or Micro/RSX
>  k11pos.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX11M+, Micro/RSX, or P/OS
>  k11rsx.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX, not linked with RMSRES
>  k11sml.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 RSX11M, small executable, tightly overlaid
>  k11xm.sav  - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RT11 XM and TSX+
>
>(Note: of these, only the RSX versions are current -- there are new sets of
>files for RT and RSTS.)
>
>I'd love to see the RSX version updated, and there is definitely some strong
>(but sporadic) interest in having a fixed-up and updated version, but to date
>nobody has been able to do the job.  I'm copying this to the DEC newsgroup
>in case it turns up any hitherto unknown RSX aficionados.

I've occasionally thought about going in and making the improvements
myself, but the main thing that has held me back is that I have access
to only a few RSX11M and 11M+ versions, none of which is particularly
recent, so it'd be difficult for me to build any binaries which I could
guarantee to work on other systems.  At one
time wasn't there a IAS binary available, too?

Another obstacle for me is that I know that I'd never do as good a job
as Billy Yodelman's been doing in maintaining and upgrading KRT for
RT-11 and (now) RSTS.

Johnny Billquist has made important patches to the RSX version of
K11, and the source code patches are available by anonymous ftp
from ftp.update.uu.se in /pub/pdp11.  I don't know if he has any
binaries available for ftp.

The most common request I receive for RSX Kermit is for a version that
runs on RSX-11M V3.0 or thereabouts.  It seems that all of the existing
K11 RSX implementations depend on features that came out about the time
of RSX-11M V4.0.

Tim. ([e-mail])

14-Jul-97 14:57:45-GMT,2827;000000000001
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:53:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for micro/rsx v3.1 base level 24C
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.misc,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
References: <Your> <17:37:58> <+0100> <[e-mail]> <5q8ao7$mv9$[e-mail]>
Organization: Columbia University
Cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>
cc: [e-mail],
        [e-mail], [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> you write:
:    I have a dual unibus pdp11/34  running rsx11M+ v3.?,
:    with macro & fortran available...
:
Kermit-11 is written in Macro-11 with some accompanying utilities
in Fortran.

:    as a result I have some current familiarity with writing RSX11M+
:    device drivers.
:    I would love to get kermit running on our machine (older rsx),
:    how can I help.
:
It's a bit complicated.  The last consistent source code for all
PDP-11 OSs was Kermit-11 T3.60, and this is also the last version that
supported RSX at all:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/k11*.*

RSX 3.x was *never* supported -- I recall this being an issue about 15
years ago.  The position of the original K11 author, Brian Nelson, in
the mid-1980s, was that sites should keep their DEC OS's up to date.
Even by then, RSX 3.x was probably about 10 years old.

Since Brian left the scene, Billy Youdelman picked up the RT-11 / TSX+
version, and the sources diverged.  Billy's version (from 1993) is in:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/krt*.*

Then John Santos picked up the cudgel on behalf of RSTS/E and produced
an update of Billy's code that is supposed to support both RT/TSX and RSTS:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/test/pdp11/krt*.*

These have been sitting there since October 1996, and I'm not sure to
what extent we can consider them a replacement for Billy's 1993 version.
Do they still work in RT-11 and TSX+?  Some feedback would be useful.

I'd say the order of business *should* be:

 1. Let's get John's version out of test and replace Billy's version
    with it, to bring the number of source sets down to two.

 2. Let's get the result working on RSX 4.0 and later (and, if it
    matters) IAS.

 3. Then let's see if we can also make it work on RSX < 4.0.

Maybe steps 2 and 3 can be merged -- I really do not know what special
features of RSX are needed by K11.  Or is it just that it requires RMS?

- Frank

14-Jul-97 19:01:46-GMT,2645;000000000001
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:54:05 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for micro/rsx v3.1 base level 24C
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Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]> writes:

> Then John Santos picked up the cudgel on behalf of RSTS/E and produced
> an update of Billy's code that is supposed to support both RT/TSX and RSTS:

>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/test/pdp11/krt*.*

> These have been sitting there since October 1996, and I'm not sure to
> what extent we can consider them a replacement for Billy's 1993 version.
> Do they still work in RT-11 and TSX+?  Some feedback would be useful.

Yes, definitely - conditional assembly can be done for either RT-11/TSX
or RSTS.  And then I'm almost done with another RT-11 update - it is about
a month away at the longest now.  A large part of this is already in the
Oct. 1966 version, most of what remains are documentation and help file
updates.

> I'd say the order of business *should* be:

>  1. Let's get John's version out of test and replace Billy's version
>     with it, to bring the number of source sets down to two.

This works fine for me, just let me finish up the current version,
which will not take very long to complete.

>  2. Let's get the result working on RSX 4.0 and later (and, if it
>     matters) IAS.

I'd be happy to help with this - I don't know much of RSX but I do
know K11 pretty well.  I'd also suggest contacting Johnny Billquist
<[e-mail]> (sorry I didn't have this address available when
I last wrote) who is very good with RSX and also has expressed an
interest in working on Kermit.

Billy Y..

15-Jul-97 14:56:50-GMT,2361;000000000001
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Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.misc,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11
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From: [e-mail] (K R. Hallam)
Subject: Re: Kermit for micro/rsx v3.1 base level 24C
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Dear All,

Just a brief note to say that I sorted out my problems. Guido in Rome (from
the surface science e-mail list) gave me sufficient instructions and an
mscustom.ini file for my pc version to get the GET command on the PDP
working (he used SEND from the pc but that didn't work for me - I know not
why). Having got everything going, I could then kermit the newer kermit
onto the PDP, and it still worked! In case it matters to anyone, I just
downloaded k11pos.tsk from ftp://ftp.columbia.edu/kermit/bin/ (I think it was)
(Thankyou for the pointer to the right directory)
and it ran o.k on its own once I had got it onto the PDP. Now I've shown I can
get my data going to and fro, all I need is a bigger hard disc and a network
connection and.......

Keith
--
Dr. Keith R. Hallam  University of Bristol, Interface Analysis Centre, Oldbury
                     House, 121, St. Michael's Hill, Bristol, BS2 8BS, England
Telephone: + 44 (0)117 925 5666    |    E-mail: [e-mail]
Facsimile: + 44 (0)117 925 5646    |    URL:    http://zeus.bris.ac.uk/~phkrh/

22-Jul-97 16:51:38-GMT,3416;000000000001
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From: [e-mail] (John Wilson)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.os.rsts,comp.emulators.misc
Subject: Ersatz-11 Demo V2.0
Date: 21 Jul 1997 02:44:15 GMT
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Xref: news.columbia.edu vmsnet.pdp-11:7885 alt.sys.pdp11:2456 comp.os.rsts:888 comp.emulators.misc:35227

At long last, V2.0 of the Ersatz-11 Demo is finally ready!

Ersatz-11 (a.k.a. E11) is a PDP-11 emulator that runs on 80x86 machines
under DOS (or in a Windows DOS box), and emulates a range of PDP-11 models.
On a midrange Pentium, it runs at approximately twice the speed of a
PDP-11/93;  the exact speed depends on the application.

The demo version is available from FTP.DBIT.COM in directory /pub/e11.
It may be used for unlimited personal/hobby use, commercial use is limited
to a 30-day evaluation period.

Major enhancements since the previous version (V1.1A):

* Emulated CPU models extended to include PDP-11/24, PDP-11/44, PDP-11/45,
  PDP-11/70, PDP-11/94, in addition to the PDP-11/34a and PDP-11/40 emulation
  already present in V1.1A.  This includes 22-bit addressing with or without
  the Unibus map, but since the Demo version runs in real mode there is a
  practical limit of around 350-400 KB of PDP-11 memory.

* RXT11+RX01, RK11D+RK02/RK05, RH11/RH70+RS03/RS04, TC11+TU56, TM11+TU10,
  TA11+TU60, RH11/RH70+TM03+TE16/TU45/TU77 device emulations added.  All
  disks and tapes now have settable CSR/vector addresses.

* Floppy disk driver now works with all emulated disks (and DECtape), and
  has been extended to support RX23, RX24, RX26, RX33, RX50, DS RX50, and
  Russian "MY:" disks (in addition to the existing RX01/02/03 support).

* Completely definable keyboard;  every possible keypress or keyrelease
  (even shift keys) may have a user-defined key script bound to it, to support
  customization and/or non-English keyboard layouts.

Major disadvantages vs. the previous version (V1.1A):

* Commercial use limited to 30-day evaluation period;  this restriction is
  of course NOT retroactive, so commercial users may still use V1.1A without
  any time limit.

* Total size of all disk image files that may be MOUNTed at once is limited
  to 32 MB.  Again, V1.1A did not have this limitation so continue using it
  if this limit is too low.

* No plain ASCII version of the user's manual (just Postscript).  Yet.

This version was a long time coming, almost every part of E11 has had a
major rewrite and the code is far more robust and extendable than it used
to be.  Up to 68,000 lines of source and still growing fast!  Anyway
please let me know what you think, I'm eager to add more features and
take care of any bugs that crop up as quickly as possible.

John Wilson
D Bit
http://www.dbit.com

22-Jul-97 19:55:19-GMT,1296;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 15:49:55 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Jennifer Jackson <[e-mail]>: Kermit for RSX-11
        operating system]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

My goodness, here we go again with Kermit for RSX 3-point-something...
What is it, a 20th anniversary celebration or something?  I'm still not sure
I understand the current situation -- I thought that K11 simply did not work
on RSX 3.x, but the last guy said he downloaded K11POS.TSK and it did work???

- Frank

Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:44:54 -0500
From: Jennifer Jackson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kermit for RSX-11 operating system

Sirs,

I am trying to locate the following:

Kermit for an RSX-11M operating system, Version 3.1 Baseline 26

on a 9 track tape 1600 BPI with a block size of 2048.

This is for use in the Gyroscope repair facility at Robins AFB and the
end users will be the US Government.

Please let me know if this is avialable or can be custom ordered and, if
so, the cost of such an order.


Jennifer Jackson
Electronics Engineer
WR-ALC/TINPL

22-Jul-97 19:47:08-GMT,1444;000000000401
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Sirs,

I am trying to locate the following:

Kermit for an RSX-11M operating system, Version 3.1 Baseline 26

on a 9 track tape 1600 BPI with a block size of 2048.

This is for use in the Gyroscope repair facility at Robins AFB and the
end users will be the US Government.

Please let me know if this is avialable or can be custom ordered and, if
so, the cost of such an order.


Jennifer Jackson
Electronics Engineer
WR-ALC/TINPL

22-Jul-97 20:26:11-GMT,2683;000000000005
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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:04:58 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Jennifer Jackson <[e-mail]>: Kermit for RSX-11
 operating system]
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:49:55 -0400 (EDT)"
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Hi -

> My goodness, here we go again with Kermit for RSX 3-point-something...
> What is it, a 20th anniversary celebration or something?  I'm still not sure
> I understand the current situation -- I thought that K11 simply did not work
> on RSX 3.x, but the last guy said he downloaded K11POS.TSK and it did work???

I'm not sure how much of it worked - it may be some of the more basic
functions such as communicating via the PDP-11 console terminal port
will work, and in many cases this is enough to get the job done, in
that a pc type system running Kermit can be connected to the PDP-11
and function as the console terminal, allowing files to be easily
transferred by simply starting Kermit on the PDP-11.  My experience
has been this is what 90%+ of the users of these lab or process
control systems would prefer anyway - it doesn't require adding a
serial interface, finding a comm driver for that, etc.

This is also not as demanding as to trying to run a task-scheduled
terminal emulator which may require things like timer support to be
sysgenned into RSX itself (without which it would either hang or race,
depending on how it's written) and is defninitely worth a try in this
case.

Regards,

Billy Y..

> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:44:54 -0500
> From: Jennifer Jackson <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Kermit for RSX-11 operating system

> Sirs,

> I am trying to locate the following:

> Kermit for an RSX-11M operating system, Version 3.1 Baseline 26

> on a 9 track tape 1600 BPI with a block size of 2048.

> This is for use in the Gyroscope repair facility at Robins AFB and the
> end users will be the US Government.

> Please let me know if this is avialable or can be custom ordered and, if
> so, the cost of such an order.


> Jennifer Jackson
> Electronics Engineer
> WR-ALC/TINPL

24-Jul-97 14:52:45-GMT,3242;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 10:51:26 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for RSX-11 operating system
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:44:54 -0500
Cc: [e-mail], Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>,
        [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I am trying to locate the following:
>
> Kermit for an RSX-11M operating system, Version 3.1 Baseline 26
> on a 9 track tape 1600 BPI with a block size of 2048.
>
I'm not sure that we can meet your requirements.  First of all, there has
never been a version of Kermit for RSX versions prior to 4.  Version 3 is,
I believe, about 20 years old?  Second, we probably can't make a tape in the
format you need.

> This is for use in the Gyroscope repair facility at Robins AFB and the
> end users will be the US Government.
>
> Please let me know if this is avialable or can be custom ordered and, if
> so, the cost of such an order.
>
But there might be some hope.  Coincidentally, somebody else made a similar
request recently, and downloaded the Kermit version for P/OS (a long-dead
RSX based OS for desktop "Professional" PDP-11 systems) and claims that it
works; his name and contact info are:

Dr. Keith R. Hallam  University of Bristol, Interface Analysis Centre, Oldbury
                     House, 121, St. Michael's Hill, Bristol, BS2 8BS, England
Telephone: + 44 (0)117 925 5666    |    E-mail: [e-mail]
Facsimile: + 44 (0)117 925 5646    |    URL:    http://zeus.bris.ac.uk/~phkrh/

I've cc'd him on this message.  I asked our resident PDP-11 expert, Billy
Youdelman (also cc'd), about this, and he said:

I'm not sure how much of it worked - it may be some of the more basic
functions such as communicating via the PDP-11 console terminal port will
work, and in many cases this is enough to get the job done, in that a pc type
system running Kermit can be connected to the PDP-11 and function as the
console terminal, allowing files to be easily transferred by simply starting
Kermit on the PDP-11.  My experience has been this is what 90%+ of the users
of these lab or process control systems would prefer anyway - it doesn't
require adding a serial interface, finding a comm driver for that, etc.

This is also not as demanding as to trying to run a task-scheduled terminal
emulator which may require things like timer support to be sysgenned into RSX
itself (without which it would either hang or race, depending on how it's
written) and is defninitely worth a try in this case.

(end quote)

So I'd recommend you try the k11pos.tsk image first.  Use anonymous ftp to
kermit.columbia.edu, directory kermit/bin, binary mode, file k11pos.tsk.
Documentation (in text mode) is in kermit/b/k11*.doc (or *.ps if you have
a PostScript printer).  You'll need to figure out how to get it onto your
machine.  Maybe some of the people on the cc list can offer some hints, or
maybe it is available from DECUS on the required media.

I hope this helps.  Let me know how it goes.

- Frank

 9-Aug-97 21:18:38-GMT,2983;000000000001
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Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 14:11:59 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for PDP-11
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:08:40 -0400 (EDT)"
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Hi -

> > I use KERMIT to transfer binary data from a DEC PDP-11/73 to my PC running
> > Win95 (or 3.1).  For this to work I need a matched pair of KERMITS.  For
> > MS-Kermit, I use version 2.29 (May 26, 1986)...
> >
> All Kermit versions should match.  You should be able to use MS-DOS Kermit
> 3.14 (the current version) just as well.

In the case of the RT-11/TSX+ Kermit (KRT) the latest release would be
the best choice here - it supports more operating system versions and in
all cases provides more functionality using less memory than K11 does.

> > ... and for the Kermit-11, well I have forgotten which version, and that's
> > my problem.  Since my PDP crashed recently, I lost my version of Kermit-11.
> > What I really need is a copy of the appropriate Kermit-11 program (matching
> > MS-Kermit 2.29)...
> >
> We don't keep old versions around if we can help it.  The current version of
> Kermit-11 is T3.60 from 1989, for RSX and IAS.  For RT-11, TSX+, and RSTS
> we have newer ones.

If this is something you really must have I have several older DECUS SIG
tapes which contain older releases of K11.  These should be on the Sunsite
anonymous ftp host
available via dial-up



> There is a well-known bug in Kermit-11 regarding something called "attribute
> packets" that might prevent it from working with more modern Kermits on the
> other end, but this is easily circumvented by telling one or both Kermits to
> "set attributes off".

> > ... on a 5.25" DEC RX50 floppy.
> >
> Our last RX50 died many years ago.

> DECUS used to distribute Kermit-11 on all sorts of DEC-specific media like
> this (8" floppy, DECtape, RX50, etc).  Maybe you can get it from them?

> In any case, you can also download it from here and then get it onto your
> PDP-11 using any method you have at your disposal, which, I grant, tends to
> be a chicken-and-egg situation.

> Kermit-11 for RSX and IAS:

>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/k11*.*

> The newer version for RT and TSX+:

>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/krt*.*

> The newer version for RSTS:

>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/test/pdp11/krt*.*

> - Frank

27-Aug-97 23:06:28-GMT,6146;000000000011
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:43:40 EDT
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To: [e-mail]
CC: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Retaining RSX-type filenames upon downloading

>
>> We have Kermit-11 on PDP-11/34 using RSX-11M and Kermit-95 on a PC.  The
>> RSX file structure includes a version number (ie. filname.type;ver).  If I
>> send from one kermit to another using a wildcard, I don't believe the
>> files are necessarily sent in order of rising version number.  I would
>> like to retain the complete filename upon receiving the file.  I have use
>> the SET FILE NAMES LITERAL, but that just send the filename.type correctly
>> without the version number.  The problem is that I have many different
>> versions of the same filename.type that I would like to download and
>> retain.
>>
>Unfortunately, the RSX version of Kermit-11 was orphaned some time ago; there
>is nobody left to take care of it.  The last version was T3.60.  Is that the
>one you have?  The manual (k11mit.{doc,ps}) does not say a word about the
>treatment of file version numbers, except that you can use wildcards in the
>version field:
>
>  XYZ.*;*     All versions of files with a NAME of XYZ with any TYPE
>              (RSX-11M/M+ and P/OS only).
>
>But it does not say what happens to the version number when the filename is
>sent to the other Kermit.  Evidently it is chopped off.  There is no
>
>SET FILE NAMES command in Kermit-11 to change this.
>
>However, since you are sending to K95, you can have K95 put "version numbers"
>back on, although not necessarily the same ones.  Suppose you have an RSX
>file called FOO.TXT, with many versions, and you send FOO.TXT;*.  Each of
>these will be sent as FOO.TXT.  If you tell K95 to:
>
>  SET FILE COLLISION BACKUP
>
>then the incoming files will be called:
>
>  FOO.TXT             <--- last one received
>  FOO.TXT.~1~         <--- first one received
>  FOO.TXT.~2~         <--- second one received
>  FOO.TXT.~3~         <--- etc
>  FOO.TXT.~4~
>
>etc.  But you can't control the correspondence between RSX and K95 version
>numbers.  SET FILE COLLISION RENAME works in a similar way, except that after
>the transfer, FOO.TXT will be the *first* one received.
>
>In any case, I would strongly recommend against any design that uses version
>numbers to distinguish files.  As you know, they are intended for backup and
>journaling, not for distinguishing different files.  If your application must
>transfer the files to another kind of computer, you should not be taking
>advantage of any RSX-specific features of filenames.  (Yes, Windows 95 should
>be able to handle these names, but most other OS's would not.)
>
>- Frank
>
Hi, I am no RSX expert, but I did some testing that bears this out.

I took a look at the code in K11; it uses the RMS $search function to
do the wild-card directory lookups, and so returns the files in "RMS"
order, what ever that is.  I think the order is well determined (i.e.
the order of files in the directory), but, unlike VMS'es ODS-2, on
ODS-1 (used by RSX) the files are not necessarily in descending order
by version number.  It has been ages since I've looked at a real RSX
system, but I seem to remember that files were in no particular order.

I do have access to a VAX that has some ODS-1 disks on it.  (Our customer
uses these disks to build large index files that they ultimately transfer
to an RSX-11M system by backing the disks up to tape and then restoring
the tapes on the RSX system.  They use BRU for this, which I beleive
makes an exact image of the source disk, so I am assuming the disks I
can see are valid RSX disks.)

The files on this disk and the directories are in no particular order.
(VMS directories are sorted alphabetically)  New versions of existing
files seem to get created in the first available slot in the directory
(if you create a bunch of files, delete some of them, and then create
some new ones, the new ones get mingled in with the old ones.)  This
means that the order of files (and versions of files) in an active
directory would soon become completely random.

Using an RSX-based RMS utility (RMSDSP) on this disk, with a wild-card
version number, the files are displayed in the same order as the VMS
DIRECTORY command gives, which is randomly with respect to name and
version number.

Even though I did all this testing on a VAX, not on a real RSX system,
the VAX RSX emulation is pretty good, and so I am fairly certain you
would see the same thing on a real RSX system.

If you know what the version numbers are, maybe you could get the files
explicitly, rather than doing a wild-card get.

Maybe you could write a Kermit script to run on the K95 PC which
would put the RSX Kermit into server mode, do a remote directory, capture
the output, parse it to extract the file names and version numbers,
and explicitly get each file, creating an output file named FOO.TXT.~nnn~
for each FOO.TXT;nnn?

Another alternative is to use SRD (an RSX utility, which I think is
from DECUS and not an official, supported part of RSX), to produce a
sorted list of files in a file, pull that file back to the PC, read
it with a Kermit script that parses the names and version numbers, and
receives the files as above.

Hope this helps some.

John Santos

12-Sep-97 14:45:26-GMT,13346;000000000001
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Sender: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 10:45:23 EDT
From: Kermit Software Support <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for Digital Vax PDP-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 97 10:34:46 -0400
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I just found out that the operating system for the PDP-11 is RSX-11.
> What version of Kermit should I use in this case?
>
Kermit-11 for RSX-11.  But this is not a currently supported, or even
well-understood product, so I don't have a simple answer for you.  Instead,
I offer the following email messages, which hopefully contain enough
information to get you going, depending on which version of RSX you have,
etc.

Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:15:13 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for micro/rsx v3.1 base level 24C
To: [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail]

Hi -

> > He directed me to
> > ftp://ftp.columbia.edu/kermit/b/, where I became overwhelmed by the
> > choice of files to download. I was looking for k11pos.tsk...
> >
> That might be for P/OS but not RSX.  Or maybe not.

This probably is P/OS specific.  Having written a communications handler
(driver) for this hardware and RT-11 I can at least say that part of the
hardware is completely different from anything found in a 'real' PDP-11.

> Nothing is ever as simple as we'd like it to be.  As you can see, we have
> quite a lot of Kermit-11 binaries in the kermit/bin area.  The most sense I
> have ever been able to make out of them is as follows (from the kermit/bin
> READ.ME file):

>   k11.tsk    - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSTS/E 8.0 or later
>   k11nrs.tsk - Ditto, but not linked with RMSRES
>   k11id.tsk  - Ditto, but uses I&D space
>   k11idm.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX11M+ or Micro/RSX
>   k11pos.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX11M+, Micro/RSX, or P/OS
>   k11rsx.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RSX, not linked with RMSRES
>   k11sml.tsk - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 RSX11M, small executable, tightly overlaid
>   k11xm.sav  - PDP-11 Kermit 3.60 for RT11 XM and TSX+

There are also .odl files for RSX which I believe are required to install
and/or use the actual task images.  Unfortunately MY RSX knowledge is very
limited.  I believe you'll need either k11rsx.tsx or k11sml.tsx, depending
on how much memory you have available to load the image and run it.

> I'd love to see the RSX version updated, and there is definitely some strong
> (but sporadic) interest in having a fixed-up and updated version, but to date
> nobody has been able to do the job.  I'm copying this to the DEC newsgroup
> in case it turns up any hitherto unknown RSX aficionados.

I believe Johnny Billquist at Upsala University in Sweeden is working on
an RSX Kermit - I don't have his email address handy but he does read the
alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroups and should be easy to find
there.

I'm also appending my followup to the news article discussing this.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

Path: MIX.COM!sluggy
Subject: Re: PC ---> PDP-11 micro/RSX problems
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.misc

[e-mail] writes:

> Does anyone have any knowledge about using KERMIT-11 (k11pos T3.50, 2nd.
> April 1986 (long packet support - whatever that means!),  under
> micro/RSX

This is a somewhat older version of Kermit-11 - it may be the newer one
(T3.60) will do better here.  This is available by anonymous ftp from
kermit.columbia.edu in the kermit/b directory.  If getting it on to the
PDP-11 is a problem you may need to transfer and then decode a hex
encoded version of the K11 image.  Instructions for doing this are in
a file in the same directory named krthex.mac - this concerns RT-11 so
you'll need to determine how to get PIP (a utility program) to accept
input from the terminal (a rather minor detail).  The hex encoded images
have the file extension .hex - also k11pos is I believe for the Pro-300
series of PC-type systems DEC built in the mid-1980s so it may be some
other assembly of Kermit-11 would do better on a real PDP-11.

I've been maintaining and updating the RT-11 version of this for some
years now and recall various comments in the code regarding problems
with things in RSX changing as new versions of that were released.
You'll likely be able to find some people familiar with RSX in the
alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 newsgroups.  In particular Johnny
Billquist at Upsala University in Sweeden may be familiar with what
will run properly in this case, or know what is necessary to fix it.

Long packet support means this Kermit is capable of using packets
greater than 94 bytes long.  I beleive the upper limit in the version
you have is 600 bytes.  This isn't much by today's standards but every
little bit helps.  To enable use of long packets on Kermit-11 you'll
need to SET RECEIVE PACKET-LENGTH 600.

Billy Y..

Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:53:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for micro/rsx v3.1 base level 24C
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.misc,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11
Cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>
cc: [e-mail],
        [e-mail], [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> you write:
:    I have a dual unibus pdp11/34  running rsx11M+ v3.?,
:    with macro & fortran available...
:
Kermit-11 is written in Macro-11 with some accompanying utilities
in Fortran.

:    as a result I have some current familiarity with writing RSX11M+
:    device drivers.
:    I would love to get kermit running on our machine (older rsx),
:    how can I help.
:
It's a bit complicated.  The last consistent source code for all
PDP-11 OSs was Kermit-11 T3.60, and this is also the last version that
supported RSX at all:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/k11*.*

RSX 3.x was *never* supported -- I recall this being an issue about 15
years ago.  The position of the original K11 author, Brian Nelson, in
the mid-1980s, was that sites should keep their DEC OS's up to date.
Even by then, RSX 3.x was probably about 10 years old.

Since Brian left the scene, Billy Youdelman picked up the RT-11 / TSX+
version, and the sources diverged.  Billy's version (from 1993) is in:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/krt*.*

Then John Santos picked up the cudgel on behalf of RSTS/E and produced
an update of Billy's code that is supposed to support both RT/TSX and RSTS:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/test/pdp11/krt*.*

These have been sitting there since October 1996, and I'm not sure to
what extent we can consider them a replacement for Billy's 1993 version.
Do they still work in RT-11 and TSX+?  Some feedback would be useful.

I'd say the order of business *should* be:

 1. Let's get John's version out of test and replace Billy's version
    with it, to bring the number of source sets down to two.

 2. Let's get the result working on RSX 4.0 and later (and, if it
    matters) IAS.

 3. Then let's see if we can also make it work on RSX < 4.0.

Maybe steps 2 and 3 can be merged -- I really do not know what special
features of RSX are needed by K11.  Or is it just that it requires RMS?

- Frank

From: [e-mail] (K R. Hallam)
Subject: Re: Kermit for micro/rsx v3.1 base level 24C
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Organization: University of Bristol, England

Just a brief note to say that I sorted out my problems. Guido in Rome (from
the surface science e-mail list) gave me sufficient instructions and an
mscustom.ini file for my pc version to get the GET command on the PDP
working (he used SEND from the pc but that didn't work for me - I know not
why). Having got everything going, I could then kermit the newer kermit
onto the PDP, and it still worked! In case it matters to anyone, I just
downloaded k11pos.tsk from ftp://ftp.columbia.edu/kermit/bin/ (I think it was)
(Thankyou for the pointer to the right directory)
and it ran o.k on its own once I had got it onto the PDP. Now I've shown I can
get my data going to and fro, all I need is a bigger hard disc and a network
connection and.......

Keith
--
Dr. Keith R. Hallam  University of Bristol, Interface Analysis Centre, Oldbury
                     House, 121, St. Michael's Hill, Bristol, BS2 8BS, England
Telephone: + 44 (0)117 925 5666    |    E-mail: [e-mail]
Facsimile: + 44 (0)117 925 5646    |    URL:    http://zeus.bris.ac.uk/~phkrh/

Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:04:58 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Jennifer Jackson <[e-mail]>: Kermit for RSX-11
 operating system]
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>

Hi -

> My goodness, here we go again with Kermit for RSX 3-point-something...
> What is it, a 20th anniversary celebration or something?  I'm still not sure
> I understand the current situation -- I thought that K11 simply did not work
> on RSX 3.x, but the last guy said he downloaded K11POS.TSK and it did work???

I'm not sure how much of it worked - it may be some of the more basic
functions such as communicating via the PDP-11 console terminal port
will work, and in many cases this is enough to get the job done, in
that a pc type system running Kermit can be connected to the PDP-11
and function as the console terminal, allowing files to be easily
transferred by simply starting Kermit on the PDP-11.  My experience
has been this is what 90%+ of the users of these lab or process
control systems would prefer anyway - it doesn't require adding a
serial interface, finding a comm driver for that, etc.

This is also not as demanding as to trying to run a task-scheduled
terminal emulator which may require things like timer support to be
sysgenned into RSX itself (without which it would either hang or race,
depending on how it's written) and is defninitely worth a try in this
case.

Regards,

Billy Y..

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 10:51:26 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for RSX-11 operating system
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:44:54 -0500
Cc: [e-mail], Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>,
        [e-mail]

> I am trying to locate the following:
>
> Kermit for an RSX-11M operating system, Version 3.1 Baseline 26
> on a 9 track tape 1600 BPI with a block size of 2048.
>
I'm not sure that we can meet your requirements.  First of all, there has
never been a version of Kermit for RSX versions prior to 4.  Version 3 is,
I believe, about 20 years old?  Second, we probably can't make a tape in the
format you need.

> This is for use in the Gyroscope repair facility at Robins AFB and the
> end users will be the US Government.
>
> Please let me know if this is avialable or can be custom ordered and, if
> so, the cost of such an order.
>
But there might be some hope.  Coincidentally, somebody else made a similar
request recently, and downloaded the Kermit version for P/OS (a long-dead
RSX based OS for desktop "Professional" PDP-11 systems) and claims that it
works; his name and contact info are:

Dr. Keith R. Hallam  University of Bristol, Interface Analysis Centre, Oldbury
                     House, 121, St. Michael's Hill, Bristol, BS2 8BS, England
Telephone: + 44 (0)117 925 5666    |    E-mail: [e-mail]
Facsimile: + 44 (0)117 925 5646    |    URL:    http://zeus.bris.ac.uk/~phkrh/

I've cc'd him on this message.  I asked our resident PDP-11 expert, Billy
Youdelman (also cc'd), about this, and he said:

I'm not sure how much of it worked - it may be some of the more basic
functions such as communicating via the PDP-11 console terminal port will
work, and in many cases this is enough to get the job done, in that a pc type
system running Kermit can be connected to the PDP-11 and function as the
console terminal, allowing files to be easily transferred by simply starting
Kermit on the PDP-11.  My experience has been this is what 90%+ of the users
of these lab or process control systems would prefer anyway - it doesn't
require adding a serial interface, finding a comm driver for that, etc.

This is also not as demanding as to trying to run a task-scheduled terminal
emulator which may require things like timer support to be sysgenned into RSX
itself (without which it would either hang or race, depending on how it's
written) and is defninitely worth a try in this case.

(end quote)

So I'd recommend you try the k11pos.tsk image first.  Use anonymous ftp to
kermit.columbia.edu, directory kermit/bin, binary mode, file k11pos.tsk.
Documentation (in text mode) is in kermit/b/k11*.doc (or *.ps if you have
a PostScript printer).  You'll need to figure out how to get it onto your
machine.  Maybe some of the people on the cc list can offer some hints, or
maybe it is available from DECUS on the required media.

I hope this helps.  Let me know how it goes.

- Frank

 5-Feb-97  9:43:21-GMT,1277;000000000011
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 11:47:11 +0200
From: Sean Tuling <[e-mail]>
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Hi,

How do I order Kermit for DEC RSX11M+ via e-mail?  What is the cost?

Thank you.

Regards
Sean Tuling

24-Sep-97 19:24:50-GMT,1716;000000000011
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To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Richard Beneyt)
Subject: Re: Kermit on DEC RSX11M operating system
X-Mailer: <PC Eudora Version 1.4>

>> I'm looking for some way to make a PDP11 running RSX11M os communicate with
>> a unix box over phone lines.  So, I wonder wether kermit runs on RSX11M on a
>> PDP11 ?
>>
>Yes.  We don't have a pdp-11 section on our website yet, but the files are
>all there nevertheless:
>
>  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/k11*.*
>
>- Frank


Hi Frank,

Thanks for your mail, but we're a bit lost about the files we must choose
in kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/k11*.* because there are so many !

Should we really get k11*.* to use kermit on RSX11M or only a subset of
this ?

Also, we don't understand some files extensions like .hex for instance, are
these
files necessary to build kermit11 ? we're not RSX11M specialists as you can see
but we have to make this box communicate...

Well, could you help a little more please ?

Thanks.

Richard Beneyt.
Richard Beneyt

24-Sep-97 19:31:20-GMT,1381;000000000011
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Dear Sir/Madam,

I have been contracted by a General Motors Plant to connect a PC to a
PDP-11 (RSX operating) system for the purpose of transferring data.  I
need to know what requirements, purchases (if any) I must fulfill
inorder to install and use kermit on their system.

Secondly, what media type (ex: 8 inch floppy, 5.25, etc. does the RSX
version reside on.

Thank you.


Dennis Linke

26-Sep-97 21:58:51-GMT,9241;000000000005
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 26 Sep 1997 14:58:41 MST
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:27:19 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit info
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:06:03 -0400 (EDT)"
 <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Hi -

> to put together a quickie web page to sort it all out, but I'd appreciate
> it if any or all of you could take a look at it and send any suggestions,
> corrections, amplifications, etc:

Appended is a copy of pdp11.txt with some changes in the RT-11 sections.
Also note a new release, V3.63, of the KRT Kermit will be made this coming
November 1st, at which time this page will need a minor revision to reflect
that.  I am 100% confident of making this date which will coincide with the
fall DECUS symposium and an announcement from Mentec regarding RT-11, the
details of which have already been discussed, concerning their supplying
KRT with the RT-11 distribution.

Regards,

Billy Y..


Kermit for the PDP-11

   D R A F T

   Kermit-11 is the Kermit software for Digital Equipment Corporation
   PDP-11 operating systems: RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS/E, IAS, P/OS, and (not a
   DEC OS) TSX+. Kermit-11 was written by Brian Nelson of the University
   of Toledo, Ohio, circa 1984-89, in PDP-11 assembly language, Macro-11.
   The source code is available, as well as prebuilt binaries for various
   configurations, and is available at our ftp site in the kermit/b
   subdirectory as k11*.mac. There are also various utilities -- hex
   encoders and decoders, etc -- written Macro-11, Fortran, and Basic in
   the same directory, along with all the Kermit-11 text files, whose
   names all start with "k11".

   Kermit-11 can operate in either remote or local mode; that is, it can
   transfer files when it is on the far end, and it can make connections
   and enter terminal mode (and transfer files) when it is on the "near
   end".

   The documentation for Kermit-11 is based on Brian's last release.
   Please note that the ".doc" extension has been in use since before
   Microsoft existed, and so if your Browser thinks it's some kind of
   rich-text document that needs a helper application to read it, tell it
   to just load it directly as plain text, no helper needed.
     * PDP-11 Kermit User Manual, plain text.
     * PDP-11 Kermit User Manual, PostScript.

   Installation instructions are also available:
     * PDP-11 Kermit Installation Instructions, plain text.
     * PDP-11 Kermit Installation Instructions, Runoff source.

   There are separate versions of Kermit-11 for each OS. Originally these
   were all built from a common code base. After Brian moved on, some of
   the versions took on separate identities. The PDP-11 Kermit versions
   are:

   RSX-11, RSX-11/M, RSX-11/M+, Micro/RSX, IAS, and P/OS
          Brian's last release, 3.60 from June 1989, is still current for
          RSX and its cousins. RSX-11/M 4.1, RSX-11/M+ 2.1, P/OS 2.0 or
          IAS 3.1 or later is required in most cases. This version has
          some bugs that prevent successful transfers with more modern
          Kermits, which can usually be worked around by telling one or
          both Kermit programs to "set attributes off".

===============  modified text follows
   RT-11, Pro/RT, and TSX-Plus
          A new version, 3.62, for the RT-11 family only, was produced by
          Billy Youdelman in September 1993 and includes lots of bug fixes
          and enhancements.  Version 3.63 will be released November 1, 1997.
      RT-11 4.0, TSX-Plus 5.0, or Pro/RT 5.1 or later are required.  All
      of the source files are in the kermit/b area as krt*.*.  krt.doc
      contains complete installation instructions for RT-11 and TSX-Plus.
===============  modified text ends
Perhaps krt.doc could be a link here ala the above doc files?
===============

   RSTS/E
          The RSTS version was further developed by John Santos in 1996,
          based on Billy's version, and a test edition of John's improved
          RSTS version is available. RSTS/E 8.0 or later is required. The
          source files are in the kermit/test/pdp11/ area as krt*.*.

   2.8, 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11 BSD
          The 2.xBSD versions are covered by C-Kermit rather than
          Kermit-11. Ditto for other PDP-11 UNIX OSs such as Ultrix-11,
          UNIX v6 or v7, etc.

   It is a goal of the Kermit Project to unify the divergent Kermit-11
   versions, bringing the RSX version up to date in the process but this
   will require some volunteer effort by PDP-11 aficionados, and no
   promises can be made.

  File Organization

   As noted, all the text files, including source code, documentation,
   utilities, and so on, are in the kermit/b directory of the Kermit
   software archive, all sharing the filename prefix "k11". The newer
   RT/TSX version is in the same directory, but with prefix "krt". The
   RSTS/E test version is in kermit/test/pdp11. Binaries are in
   kermit/bin/ and kermit/test/pdp11/bin/.

    Binary Executables

   Here they are. More detailed descriptions can be found in the
   installation instructions.

   k11.tsk
          Kermit-11 3.60 for RSTS/E 8.0 or later, linked to RMSRES

   k11id.tsk
          As above but with I&D space

   k11nrs.tsk
          RSTS, but not linked with RMSRES

   krtid.tsk
          A test 3.62 version for RSTS, requires I&D space

   k11idm.tsk
          Kermit-11 3.60 for RSX11M+ or Micro/RSX with I&D Space

   k11pos.tsk
          Kermit-11 3.60 For RSX11M+, Micro/RSX, or P/OS. Reportedly,
          this one might also work on RSX 3.x.

   k11rsx.tsk
          Kermit-11 3.60 for RSX, not linked with RMSRES

   k11sml.tsk
          Kermit-11 3.60 RSX11M, small executable, tightly overlaid

   k11i31.tsk
          Kermit-11 3.60 for IAS 3.1

   k11ias.tsk
          Kermit-11 3.60 for IAS

===============  modified text follows
   k11xm.sav
          Kermit-11 3.60 for mapped RT-11 monitors (XM/ZM/..) and TSX-Plus

   k11rt4.sav
          Kermit-11 3.60 for unmapped RT-11 monitors (FB/SB/SJ/..) and TSX-Plus

   krt.sav
          Kermit-11 3.62 for unmapped RT-11 monitors (FB/SB/SJ/..) and TSX-Plus

   krtmin.sav
          Kermit-11 3.62 minimal version for small or floppy-only RT-11 systems

   krttsx.sav
          Kermit-11 3.62 for mapped RT-11 monitors (XM/ZM/..) and TSX-Plus
===============  modified text ends

    Hexified (text) Binaries

   These are "hex" encoded (i.e. printable text) versions of the
   executable programs. They are useful if you don't have any way to get
   binary files onto your PDP-11. Hex files can be "bootstrapped" in
   various ingenious ways that you probably know better than we do.

===============  added text follows
   RT-11/TSX-Plus users may refer to the top of krthex.mac for detailed
   step-by-step instructions regarding moving hex files to an RT-11 host.
===============  added text ends

   k11.hex
          Corresponds to k11.tsk.

   k11i31.hex
          Corresponds to k11i31.tsk.

   k11nrs.hex
          Corresponds to k11nrs.tsk.

   k11pos.hex
          Corresponds to k11pos.tsk.

   k11rsx.hex
          Corresponds to k11rsx.tsk.

   k11rt4.hex
          Corresponds to k11rt4.sav.

   k11xm.hex
          Corresponds to k11xm.sav.

   krt.hex
          Corresponds to krt.sav.

   krtmin.hex
          Corresponds to krtmin.sav.

   krttsx.hex
          Corresponds to krttsx.sav.

  Native Media

   Native media -- RX01, RX50, RK05, DECtape, who knows what else --
   might be available from the DECUS library, 219 Boston Post Road, BP02,
   Marlboro, MA 01752-1850. Write, or call [phone], or send
   Internet e-mail to [e-mail] for further info.

   The Kermit Project has no PDP-11s in house to make PDP-11-specific
   formats. We can make ANSI-format 9-track tapes, which are supported by
   some PDP-11 OSs, and we can make VMS BACKUP format TK50s as well more
   common non-DEC formats like DOS diskettes, etc.

  Additional Information

     * Kermit-11 "Beware File", Assorted Hints, Tips, Cautions, and
       Reports.
     * Kermit-11 3.60 File List, Detailed notes on what's what, as of
       1987.
     * Kermit-11 Edit History
     * Kermit-11 Help File
     _________________________________________________________________


    Kermit for the PDP-11 / Columbia University / [e-mail] /
    24 September 1997

30-Sep-97 20:23:13-GMT,690;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 16:22:53 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit info
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:27:19 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

Thanks!  I put up a new copy of the pdp-11 Kermit web page.  If you spot
anything else that needs changing, or can think of additional helpful info
for it, let me know.

Are you working with John Santos on the November release?  It would be great
if RSTS was covered too...

- Frank

30-Sep-97  2:01:42-GMT,1345;000000000011
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Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: "D.Tchernikov" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Subject: I'm need Kermit for MUMPS
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:57:13 -0000
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I'm want to have Kermit for MUMPS
please answer me to [e-mail]

Best regards,
Ruslan Araslanov

30-Sep-97  2:05:26-GMT,1052;000000000001
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Sender: Jeffrey Altman <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 22:04:44 EDT
From: [e-mail]
To: "D.Tchernikov" <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
Cc: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm need Kermit for MUMPS
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:57:13 -0000
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I'm want to have Kermit for MUMPS
> please answer me to [e-mail]
>
> Best regards,
> Ruslan Araslanov
>

MUMPS on what platform?

DOS, Windows, Unix, ... ?


    Jeffrey Altman * Sr.Software Designer * Kermit-95 for Win32 and OS/2
                 The Kermit Project * Columbia University
       612 West 115th St #716 * New York, NY * 10025 * [phone]
    http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.html * [e-mail]


30-Sep-97  3:39:02-GMT,1679;000000000001
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From: "Ruslan N. Araslanov" <[e-mail]>
Organization: Large Computer Systems Company
To: [e-mail]
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:32:57 +0800
Subject: Re: I'm need Kermit for MUMPS
Priority: normal
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On 29 Sep 97 at 22:04, [e-mail]  wrote:

> > I'm want to have Kermit for MUMPS
> > please answer me to [e-mail]
> >

> MUMPS on what platform?
>
> DOS, Windows, Unix, ... ?
>
My freinds use MUMPS on PDP-11/85, I think, that MUPMS
they use under RSX11M, but i dont known.

Best regards,
Ruslan N. Araslanov
Leading System Programmer
-------------------
Phone/Fax: [phone], 34-09-84, 34-83-77

30-Sep-97  4:06:23-GMT,2526;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 0:06:23 EDT
From: Jeffrey Altman <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]
Subject: ["Ruslan N. Araslanov" <[e-mail]>: Re: I'm need
        Kermit for MUMPS]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

I think you can answer this better than I at the moment.

                ---------------

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From: "Ruslan N. Araslanov" <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:32:57 +0800
Subject: Re: I'm need Kermit for MUMPS
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10)

On 29 Sep 97 at 22:04, [e-mail]  wrote:

> > I'm want to have Kermit for MUMPS
> > please answer me to [e-mail]
> >

> MUMPS on what platform?
>
> DOS, Windows, Unix, ... ?
>
My freinds use MUMPS on PDP-11/85, I think, that MUPMS
they use under RSX11M, but i dont known.

Best regards,
Ruslan N. Araslanov
Leading System Programmer
-------------------
Phone/Fax: [phone], 34-09-84, 34-83-77


    Jeffrey Altman * Sr.Software Designer * Kermit-95 for Win32 and OS/2
                 The Kermit Project * Columbia University
       612 West 115th St #716 * New York, NY * 10025 * [phone]
    http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.html * [e-mail]


30-Sep-97 20:25:23-GMT,841;000000000001
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Sender: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 16:24:41 EDT
From: Kermit Software Support <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail], "D.Tchernikov" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm need Kermit for MUMPS
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:57:13 -0000
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I'm want to have Kermit for MUMPS
>
Do you have a Web browser?  If so, please take a look
at our PDP-11 Kermit Web page:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

> please answer me to [e-mail]
>
The home of the big radar? :-)

- Frank

 1-Oct-97  1:39:04-GMT,1784;000000000011
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From: "Ruslan N. Araslanov" <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:31:44 +0800
Subject: Re: I'm need Kermit for MUMPS
Priority: normal
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I'm sorry, but i have only Email and FTP gate.
Please say me another way to obtain that.

> Do you have a Web browser?  If so, please take a look
> at our PDP-11 Kermit Web page:
>
>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html
>


Best regards,
Ruslan N. Araslanov
Leading System Programmer
-------------------
Phone/Fax: [phone], 34-09-84, 34-83-77

 1-Oct-97 13:42:31-GMT,1052;000000000001
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Sender: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 9:41:53 EDT
From: Kermit Software Support <[e-mail]>
To: "Ruslan N. Araslanov" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm need Kermit for MUMPS
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:31:44 +0800
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I'm sorry, but i have only Email and FTP gate.
> Please say me another way to obtain that.
>
> > Do you have a Web browser?  If so, please take a look
> > at our PDP-11 Kermit Web page:
> >
> >   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html
>
Anonymous ftp to kermit.columbia.edu [128.59.39.2], directory
kermit/b, text mode, files mp*.*.  This is quite old and we don't
know anything about it except what is written in the accompanying
documentation files.  Good luck!

- Frank

 2-Oct-97  1:39:15-GMT,1599;000000000011
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Thank you very much for the rendered help, Frank!


Best regards,
Ruslan N. Araslanov
Leading System Programmer
-------------------
Phone/Fax: [phone], 34-09-84, 34-83-77

 2-Oct-97 13:49:31-GMT,715;000000000000
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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 9:49:13 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "Ruslan N. Araslanov" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm need Kermit for MUMPS
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:24:23 +0800
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> Thank you very much for the rendered help, Frank!
>
You are very welcome.  Let me know if it works or if you
have to make any changes to it.  (It it doesn't work, there
is not much we can do, since we have no more PDP-11s, and
I haven't seen MUMPS since 1974 :-)

- Frank

 7-Oct-97  5:49:27-GMT,1747;000000000005
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 6 Oct 1997 22:49:12 MST
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 22:29:47 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit info
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:22:53 -0400 (EDT)"
 <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

> Are you working with John Santos on the November release?  It would be great
> if RSTS was covered too...

Sorry to be late answering, this is one of the few times I'm somewhat
buried with work..

What's coming this November will be the final RT-11 only version
of KRT.  I'm now waiting to hear from John about updating his copy
of the sources - if he's got something ready to release we can use
that instead.  V3.63 is intended for distribution with RT-11 by
Mentec, the combined RT-11 and RSTS version is 4.64 and will build
the same RT-11 executables as V3.63.  Once the RSTS version is
working well we can then add more features - in the meantime 3.63
is more than adequate for RT-11 users.

And then a pretty sharp RSX person, Johnny Bilquist at Upsala
University in Sweeden <[e-mail]>, has expressed interest
in working on KRT.  I'll be sending him a copy of the updated
sources as soon as I have that done.

Regards,

Billy Y..

 7-Oct-97  5:49:27-GMT,1747;000000000005
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit info
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Hi -

> Are you working with John Santos on the November release?  It would be great
> if RSTS was covered too...

Sorry to be late answering, this is one of the few times I'm somewhat
buried with work..

What's coming this November will be the final RT-11 only version
of KRT.  I'm now waiting to hear from John about updating his copy
of the sources - if he's got something ready to release we can use
that instead.  V3.63 is intended for distribution with RT-11 by
Mentec, the combined RT-11 and RSTS version is 4.64 and will build
the same RT-11 executables as V3.63.  Once the RSTS version is
working well we can then add more features - in the meantime 3.63
is more than adequate for RT-11 users.

And then a pretty sharp RSX person, Johnny Bilquist at Upsala
University in Sweeden <[e-mail]>, has expressed interest
in working on KRT.  I'll be sending him a copy of the updated
sources as soon as I have that done.

Regards,

Billy Y..

15-Oct-97 19:17:56-GMT,1633;000000000011
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: DX11 baud rates under RT11
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Hi -

I was planning on waiting for the DECUS symposium this November
to announce this but at this point there's no reason why it can't
be sped up a bit - my biggest problem right now would be getting
the time to write up a formal announcement - I have to go in to
CBS in about 30 minutes and have no idea when they'll let me go.

Frank, all the files are on watsun now, in /w/guests/billy/krt363
and the binaries are in krt363-bin - you're welcome to copy all
those over to kermit/b, and then update the PDP-11 web page to
correct the date.

I'll write up an announcement and get it to you as soon as I can,
within a couple days at the longest, which can then be posted to
the moderated Kermit newsgroup along with a few others...

Regards,

Billy Y..

15-Oct-97 19:17:56-GMT,1633;000000000015
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:13:23 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: DX11 baud rates under RT11
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Hi -

I was planning on waiting for the DECUS symposium this November
to announce this but at this point there's no reason why it can't
be sped up a bit - my biggest problem right now would be getting
the time to write up a formal announcement - I have to go in to
CBS in about 30 minutes and have no idea when they'll let me go.

Frank, all the files are on watsun now, in /w/guests/billy/krt363
and the binaries are in krt363-bin - you're welcome to copy all
those over to kermit/b, and then update the PDP-11 web page to
correct the date.

I'll write up an announcement and get it to you as soon as I can,
within a couple days at the longest, which can then be posted to
the moderated Kermit newsgroup along with a few others...

Regards,

Billy Y..

 7-Oct-97  5:49:27-GMT,1747;000000000001
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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 22:29:47 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Kermit info
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:22:53 -0400 (EDT)"
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Hi -

> Are you working with John Santos on the November release?  It would be great
> if RSTS was covered too...

Sorry to be late answering, this is one of the few times I'm somewhat
buried with work..

What's coming this November will be the final RT-11 only version
of KRT.  I'm now waiting to hear from John about updating his copy
of the sources - if he's got something ready to release we can use
that instead.  V3.63 is intended for distribution with RT-11 by
Mentec, the combined RT-11 and RSTS version is 4.64 and will build
the same RT-11 executables as V3.63.  Once the RSTS version is
working well we can then add more features - in the meantime 3.63
is more than adequate for RT-11 users.

And then a pretty sharp RSX person, Johnny Bilquist at Upsala
University in Sweeden <[e-mail]>, has expressed interest
in working on KRT.  I'll be sending him a copy of the updated
sources as soon as I have that done.

Regards,

Billy Y..

15-Oct-97 19:17:56-GMT,1633;000000000011
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: DX11 baud rates under RT11
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Hi -

I was planning on waiting for the DECUS symposium this November
to announce this but at this point there's no reason why it can't
be sped up a bit - my biggest problem right now would be getting
the time to write up a formal announcement - I have to go in to
CBS in about 30 minutes and have no idea when they'll let me go.

Frank, all the files are on watsun now, in /w/guests/billy/krt363
and the binaries are in krt363-bin - you're welcome to copy all
those over to kermit/b, and then update the PDP-11 web page to
correct the date.

I'll write up an announcement and get it to you as soon as I can,
within a couple days at the longest, which can then be posted to
the moderated Kermit newsgroup along with a few others...

Regards,

Billy Y..

17-Oct-97  0:16:02-GMT,9096;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:14:43 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: KRT V3.63 Announcement
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Hi -

Appended is an announcement for KRT V3.63.  I'm sending it to you
as opposed to posting it to comp.protocols.kermit.announce as I'm
not sure any of the news hosts I have available will not post it
anyway due to the mix of moderated and unmoderated newsgroups..

Thanks!

Billy Y..

--------------------------cut here-------------------------------
Subject: Announcing KRT V3.63 for RT-11 and TSX-Plus
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kermit.announce,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro,comp.protocols.kermit.misc,vmsnet.pdp-11

I'm pleased to announce an update to the KRT Kermit for the PDP-11
RT-11 and TSX-Plus operating systems is ready for production service.
Version 3.63 adds several new features and performance enhancements
which are detailed below, as well as fixing all known bugs, and is
available now by anonymous ftp from <kermit.columbia.edu>.  All
sources are on-line but just a few files are required to install
and use the distributed executable program images -

  kermit/b/krt.doc        Installation instructions, index of all files
  kermit/b/krt.ini        Sample init file
  kermit/b/krthlp.hlp     HELP text file
  kermit/bin/krt.sav      Executable for RT-11FB/SB/SJ or TSX+
  kermit/bin/krttsx.sav   Executable for RT-11XB/XM/ZB/ZM or TSX+

This edition represents a significant step forward in both speed and
convenience.  I strongly urge all users of RT-11/TSX-Plus to upgrade
as soon as possible.

My sincere thanks to all who've made suggestions and above all helped
test this work - one of its key points is it's been thoroughly tested
over quite some time and has been found to be extremely stable.  There
is yet more to come, work is also being done by John Santos for RSTS/E
and KRT remains a fully supported Kermit - if you have any problem with
it please contact me directly.  And to be sure, KRT is fully Year-2000
compliant when used with operating system versions that are as well.

KRT's new features and fixes include -

o SET/SHOW CONTROL-CHARACTER as in C-Kermit were added.  This speeds up
  transfers of binary data as it reduces the need for control character
  quoting which requires two bytes to transmit each one.  See HELP SET
  CONTROL-CHAR for an in-depth discussion regarding how to use it.

o KRT's file name conversion code now accomodates various previously
  troublesome Unix file names such as .x. or .x: or ..x. which were
  being erronously considered as implicitly wildcarded or a device or
  path name.  All previously undefined characters possible in such file
  names are now processed correctly.

o In support of the above SET FILE WILDCARDS is now available within KRT.
  The default is IMPLICIT, as it always has been in K11 and KRT.  EXPLICIT
  requires the user to actually enter wildcard characters.  This does not
  modify the RT-11 or TSX-Plus setting and allows renaming Unix files with
  a leading dot in the same command used to get them.

o User specified file sizes, as in FILENAME[size], are now supported and
  sizes are now displayed when sending or receiving files.  Note that for
  text files from foreign systems KRT adds 25% to the received size to
  accomodate differing line termination schemes, and this increased size
  is what will be displayed even though the file will most likely be
  closed later at some smaller number of blocks.  If this increase exceeds
  the currently available free space even though the file would fit its
  exact size may now be passed to KRT in the GET command.

o The contents of SEND FILE ACK and RECEIVE FILE ACK packets, such
  as a file name returned by the remote Kermit, and the file type
  (ASCII, Binary) are now displayed during file transfers.

o An error packet is now sent to the other Kermit when appropriate
  (as when a write to a local file fails) so the transfer is properly
  aborted.

o A warning message is now displayed when receiving an empty file so
  the user will know why no data were transfered.

o Under TSX-Plus EMT 114 is now used for output when using TT as the
  link device.  This is a very noticable difference.  As the TSX docs
  say ttyout loops are not handled very efficiently..

o Transmitted and received file attributes may now be individually
  disabled.  These additions are documented in HELP SET ATTRIBUTES
  and are useful when another Kermit has trouble with some but not
  all of them.

o A dummy file name is now included when opening LP as the log file
  for more recent versions of RT-11 that expect to see something there.
  Receiving a file to LP is also now possible.  As in the past LP must
  either be spooled or extremely fast to serve as the log device.

o The test for a Line Time Clock was modified to accomodate QED's fast
  machines, per a suggestion from Alan Sieving of QED.  It now completes
  as fast as possible regardless of machine type.  Previously the QED
  CPUs finished the delay loop in less than one clock tick.

o The use of a quoted string to place a blank at end of prompt string,
  as in SET PROMPT "Kermit-11> ", is now supported.

o The command line input buffer has been increased to 132 bytes in
  the EIS assembly only.  This accomodates long lines in take files
  and of course also works for keyboard input.  This invloved fixing
  all possible sign extension problems and it's now possible to make
  LN$MAX <= 255.  As distributed KRTTSX is built with EIS instructions
  and KRT is not.

o A T3000X.42 modem definition for XOFF restraint with this modem was
  added.  Note that S48 must be set to 0 or the modem will NOT do XOFF
  restraint, regardless of what the modem docs say, at least in the
  command mode and sometimes when on-line to another modem as well.
  This is a bug in the modem itself and is the reason hardware flow
  control was added to the KM handler.

o REMOTE commands now display the reasons for retries as each occurs.
  An error packet is now sent when giving up to stop any possible
  lingering activity at the other end.

o Repeated char encoding is now done on REMOTE command arguments.  This
  makes a big difference for a command like REMOTE DELETE *~ sent to a
  Unix system, which without repeat encoding becomes 'rm *' after going
  though C-Kermit and thus hoses everything.  Eight-bit quoting is also
  now done here when parity is in use.

o CD/CWD and REMOTE CD/CWD will now operate without an argument.  RT-11
  and TSX assigns are now tested for illegal string lengths as well.

o REMOTE WHO now passes arguments to the remote host.  Some hosts
  support this, such as VMS where it's really handy on a busy system.

o DAYTIME and SHOW DAYTIME commands were added.

o The first data packet is now actually rebuilt when resizing due
  to its failing so the next retry is actually done with the smaller
  sized packet.  In the past the reduction wasn't done until the next
  packet was sent, which is of course too late..  A rewind routine was
  restored in KRTRMS.MAC for use when resizing packets ala the above,
  which is more efficient then closing and reopening the file.

o An error in testing for terminal emulator command characters after
  having SET CONSOLE 8-BIT is now fixed.

o The packet data processing routine (BUFFIL) was moved back to the
  root for speed after cleaning up made space available for it once
  again.  This means less calling of overlays and helps quite a bit
  when running on a floppies-only system.

o A problem with the SET PHONE XMODE value specified in a SET CL PORTS
  string being overwritten by the default value in a modem definition
  was fixed.  Now if a value is explicitly supplied it will prevail.

o A problem with garbage sometimes being appended to a log file name
  was fixed.

o An unpopped stack error on an error exit from BUFEMP (used to receive
  files) was fixed.  This bug was introduced in V3.62 but there was no
  error checking at all before that..

o Any possibly lingering data from a modem is now flushed before again
  beginning dialing or redialing.

o All source files have been thoroughly cleaned up and fully commented
  and the HELP text and .DOC files are completely caught up.  All program
  data have been moved to the tops of their source modules to make foreign
  language translation as easy as possible.

Billy Youdelman
[e-mail]
16-Oct-1997

17-Oct-97 19:25:52-GMT,2183;000000000011
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:15:22 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: KRT V3.63 Announcement
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Hi -

> The files are all installed, the Web page is updated, etc.

Here's one more little update for the PDP-11 web page,
concerning the exact RT-11 monitors under which various
versions of Kermit-11 will actually run.  Don't know how
I missed this before, sorry!  Also note that the KRTMIN
version is based on 3.62 (not a typo) as adding anything
to it just makes it bigger and the goal with this one is
to remain as small as possible.

Thanks,

Billy Y..

------------------------------old text-------------------------
   k11xm.sav
          Kermit-11 3.60 for RT11 XM and TSX+

   k11rt4.sav
          Kermit-11 3.60 for RT11 and TSX+ not for XM

   krt.sav
          Kermit-11 3.62 for RT11 XM and TSX+

   krtmin.sav
          Kermit-11 3.62 for RT11 minimal version

   krttsx.sav
          Kermit-11 3.62 for TSX+

------------------------------new text-------------------------
   k11xm.sav
          Kermit-11 3.60 for RT-11XM and TSX+

   k11rt4.sav
          Kermit-11 3.60 for RT-11FB and TSX+

   krt.sav
          Kermit-11 3.63 for RT-11FB/SB/SJ and TSX+

   krtmin.sav
          Kermit-11 3.62 for RT-11FB/SB/SJ minimal version

   krttsx.sav
          Kermit-11 3.63 for RT-11XB/XM/ZB/ZM and TSX+

--------------------------end of changes-----------------------

 4-Nov-97  2:27:07-GMT,5583;000000000015
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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:04:26 EST
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Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Should \Fcontents() work with OUTPUT?

Hi, Frank:

> See the description of the OUTPUT command on page 420.  It has
> special codes for NUL, BREAK, and Long BREAK.
>

Yup, I had found this, but it does say you can use the functions in
Chapter 18 in the text.  In some sense, this is true; \Fcontents(\%x)
is being replaced by the contents of %x, but then apparently during
output, the \-n substitution gets done.  \Fcontents does suppress
variable substition, though.

If you just output \%x, (without the \Fcontents), the backslash quotes
the n during symbol substitution, so any coincidental variable or
function substitution gets done, but the backslash-n doesn't get
converted to a <null>!

To output a <null> from a variable, it seems it the "n" must have 2
backslashes in front of it...

I guess from the behaviour, there are two substitution passes.
The first pass does all the normal substitutions (variables, functions,
backslash digits, etc.) and Fcontents() suppresses this pass.
The second pass is peculiar to OUTPUT, and substitutes breaks,
long breaks, and nulls.  Fcontents doesn't suppress the 2nd pass.

This is the kind of situation which makes my brain hurt ;-)
It reminds me of the DCL quote-quote-quote-quote-quote syndrom.

[snip]

> > We can think of a couple of work-arounds, if this is a
> > feature, not a bug.  (1: scan the text for backslashes and
> > double them; 2: extract blocks of text we want to send into
> > a series of files, and TRANSMIT them...)
> >
> OK, this is an unforeseen scenario, and a tough one.  Workaround
> (1) won't work as you expect --


Okay, I confess.   The application is our mail firewall; we are
conecting with Kermit to our SMTP server and sending it the mail
messages.  The rest of the line above got eaten!

> (similarly for B and L) are VERY special in OUTPUT commands.
>
> Workaround (2) is OK, but a royal pain.
>
> I think the solution is to add a new command like SET OUTPUT
> TRANSPARENT to make it skip the

The rest of this line disappeared, too.  I think the SMTP server saw
a <null> and treated it as end-of-string, and ignored the rest of the
line.

> solution in Alpha.08.
>


>From my experimenting, it looks like blindly stuffing backslashes would
usually work, but I'm not sure that it will ALWAYS work.  I think
solution 2) would be easier.

Also, we are actually doing OUTPUT \Fcontents(\%x)\13 to send a <CR>
after each line; would SET OUTPUT TRANSPARENT supress the conversion
of backslash-13 into a <CR>, or would it only affect nulls & breaks?

> And in return...  Any updates on the reconciliation of the two
> KRTs? :-)
>

Our PDP-11 died on Oct 23, while I was in the middle of checking out
the differences between Billy's latest sources and my last set, to
see if it would cause any problems.  I hadn't found anything so far,
mostly just comments that reflected the latest version and edits.

I hadn't gotten as far as actually trying to build it on RSTS yet.

I have all the sources on our VAX, so I can continue doing the
source comparisons, but probably won't be able to test anything.

Fixing the PDP is a real low priority for my company;  we hardly
have any customers still using PDP's, and all the PDP's are going away
Real Soon Now (probably in about a year), so I can only work on it
in my spare time.  I did get it working for a while on Saturday (it
stayed up for about an hour), but then I replaced some dead fans,
and it wouldn't boot afterwards.  I think it is a power supply
problem; it is getting power-fail traps about 30 seconds into the
bootstrap, at random.  (Once it stayed up almost long enough to
log in, but usually it dies long before it gets that far.)  So,
I don't think it is hopeless, but it could be a long time before
I can devote the time to fix it.

If worst comes to worst, I could probably build KRT on one of our
customer's systems (I would need to get permission, first), but
testing it is problematical without physical access to ports,
modems, etc.

I've been meaning to let you and Billy know about this situation, but
every time I turn around, it changes.  1st they tell me that
no one really needs the PDP anymore, so don't waste time mucking
with it.  Then someone tells me they need it urgently.  I get it
working (briefly), and they tell me "I don't need it anymore.  I
did something else..."  So if it costs any money to get the PDP-11
fixed, it might or might not happen.

I wonder if I can get a copy of one of the PDP-11 emulators up on
my PC at home and run RSTS under it?

> - Frank
>
- John

 4-Nov-97 15:46:46-GMT,3956;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 10:46:39 EST
From: Kermit Software Support <[e-mail]>
To: <"xman::john"@egh.com>
Subject: Re: Should \Fcontents() work with OUTPUT?
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:04:26 EST
Cc: [e-mail], John Santos <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> > See the description of the OUTPUT command on page 420.  It has
> > special codes for NUL, BREAK, and Long BREAK.
> >
> Yup, I had found this, but it does say you can use the functions in
> Chapter 18 in the text.  In some sense, this is true; \Fcontents(\%x)
> is being replaced by the contents of %x, but then apparently during
> output, the \-n substitution gets done.  \Fcontents does suppress
> variable substition, though.
>
Right.

> If you just output \%x, (without the \Fcontents), the backslash quotes
> the n during symbol substitution, so any coincidental variable or
> function substitution gets done, but the backslash-n doesn't get
> converted to a <null>!
>
Right.

> To output a <null> from a variable, it seems it the "n" must have 2
> backslashes in front of it...
>
I told you this was tricky.  Why don't you have a look at dooutput() in
ckuus4.c if you want to see *how* tricky.

Meanwhile, forget about even thinking about trying work around this.
Like I said, I'll have to add a new command that disables \N, \\N, \\\N, and
\\\\N (etc) in OUTPUT commands.

> From my experimenting, it looks like blindly stuffing backslashes would
> usually work, but I'm not sure that it will ALWAYS work.  I think
> solution 2) would be easier.
>
Just wait for Alpha.08.

> Also, we are actually doing OUTPUT \Fcontents(\%x)\13 to send a <CR>
> after each line; would SET OUTPUT TRANSPARENT supress the conversion
> of backslash-13 into a <CR>, or would it only affect nulls & breaks?
>
It would only affect NULs and BREAKs.

> Our PDP-11 died on Oct 23...
>
Oh well.  Still, I'll bet if you posted a message on the pdp11 newsgroup,
you'd probably find lots of people who'd be glad to send you a new one,
especially since so many people these days are posting messages looking for
a new home for a loved but unneeded -11.  Or even broken ones you can use
for spare parts.

> I've been meaning to let you and Billy know about this situation, but
> every time I turn around, it changes.  1st they tell me that
> no one really needs the PDP anymore, so don't waste time mucking
> with it.  Then someone tells me they need it urgently.
>
The latter always happens when you least expect it, and it is often from
somebody you really want to help, like some scientists stranded in
Anarctica (this really happened once -- they lost their copy of PDP-11
Kermit and it was their only link to the outside world), some hospital
with their CAT or MRI scanners, etc.

> I wonder if I can get a copy of one of the PDP-11 emulators up on
> my PC at home and run RSTS under it?
>
I saw a reference to one of them recently:

  From: [e-mail] (John Wilson)
  Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.os.rsts,comp.emulators.misc
  Subject: Ersatz-11 Demo V2.0
  Date: 21 Jul 1997 02:44:15 GMT
  Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY

  At long last, V2.0 of the Ersatz-11 Demo is finally ready!

  Ersatz-11 (a.k.a. E11) is a PDP-11 emulator that runs on 80x86 machines
  under DOS (or in a Windows DOS box), and emulates a range of PDP-11 models.
  On a midrange Pentium, it runs at approximately twice the speed of a
  PDP-11/93;  the exact speed depends on the application.

  The demo version is available from FTP.DBIT.COM in directory /pub/e11.
  It may be used for unlimited personal/hobby use, commercial use is limited
  to a 30-day evaluation period.

- Frank

 5-Dec-97 17:42:46-GMT,2253;000000000001
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From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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From: [e-mail] (Tim Shoppa)
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Y2K, PDP11/04 with RT11 ?
Date: 4 Dec 1997 22:20:01 GMT
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In article <66771g$8nu$[e-mail]>, haugstad <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Does anyone know, is PDP11/04 and RT11 Y2K compliant ?
>Have anyone tried such system with dates after year 2000 ?

It depends on what version of RT-11 you're running.  Versions before
5.6 won't display or accept years after 1999.  In 5.6, the monitors
became "aware" of years through 2099, and in 5.7 all the standard
system utilities had support for 21st century dates added.  (Some
other 5.6 bugs were fixed, too, in 5.7.)

Of course, any applications you're currently running will probably
have to be updated for 2000-2099 support, but that's your problem.
If you've got the source, it's straightforward.

Naturally, if none of your applications really depend on the system
date, you can just remain in the 20th century while the rest of
the world goes into the 21st.  That's your decision, and in some
cases it may, indeed, be the most prudent decision.

Stuart Brook and Chip Charlotte at Mentec are the folks who can tell
you how to get RT-11 5.7.  It does run on a PDP-11/04, though one issue
you may have to deal with on non-extended-memory CPU's like your 11/04
is the replacement of the SJ monitor with SB.

Good places to discuss RT-11 issues are "vmsnet.pdp-11" and "alt.sys.pdp11".

Tim. ([e-mail])

17-Dec-97 15:03:53-GMT,1981;000000000401
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:02:08 -0500
From: Chuck Noll <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Corporate Jets, Inc.
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Subject: Kermit on PDP-11
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I have just received my kermit tape and loaded the files onto a DEC
PDP-11 computer running version 9.5 of RSTS/E.  I need to get the
non-resident version of kermit running(k11nrs).  I am having problems
creating a task image(k11nrs.tsk) from the hex file(k11nrs.hex).

According to the documentation, I should switch my keyboard monitor to
basic, which I do, and the bring in the kermit hex conversion
program(old k11hex).  When I do this I get the following error messages.

?Line too long, This is displayed 10 times followed by :
?End of file on device

If I then run k11hex, I just get another monitor prompt.

I believe that my basic was generated for 4-word Basic.

I only have two users left on this beast, however, I need to get files
off of this system periodically to load on to our accounting system on
another platform.

Can you please help ?

Thank you

Chuck Noll
MIS Director
Corporate Jets, Inc.
[e-mail]

19-Dec-97  7:07:16-GMT,8621;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:57:38 -0500
From: John Santos <[e-mail]>
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>,
        Chuck Noll
    <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Chuck Noll <[e-mail]>: Kermit on PDP-11]
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On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> Can you help this poor guy?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Frank
>
> Date: Wed, 17Dec 1997 10:02:08 -0500
> From: Chuck Noll <[e-mail]>
> Reply-To:[e-mail]
> Organization: Corporate Jets, Inc.
> To:[e-mail]
> Subject: Kermit on PDP-11
>
> I have just received my kermit tape and loaded the files onto a DEC
> PDP-11 computer running version 9.5 of RSTS/E.  I need to get the
> non-resident version of kermit running(k11nrs).  I am having problems
> creating a task image(k11nrs.tsk) from the hex file(k11nrs.hex).
>
> According to the documentation, I should switch my keyboard monitor to
> basic, which I do, and the bring in the kermit hex conversion
> program(old k11hex).  When I do this I get the following error messages.
>
> ?Line too long, This is displayed 10 times followed by :
> ?End of file on device
>
> If I then run k11hex, I just get another monitor prompt.
>
> I believe that my basic was generated for 4-word Basic.
>
> I only have two users left on this beast, however, I need to get files
> off of this system periodically to load on to our accounting system on
> another platform.
>
> Can you please help ?
>
> Thank you
>
> Chuck Noll
> MIS Director
> Corporate Jets, Inc.
> [e-mail]
>
>

I think what is happening here is the file got transfered in binary mode
rather than in test mode.  Did you copy the file from the Kermit
distribution tape on the RSTS/E system, or did you download it some other
way?  If it copied from the tape this way, then probably your stuck and
will have to fix the file.  If you sent it via DECnet or some other
transfer method, the easiest fix is to send it again in text mode.

If you can't do this, then there are several possibilities. Make a safe
copy of the file before you mess with it.

TECO (or another text editor) might fix it for you.  If the file came from
a VMS or RSX system, and has attributes ($ dir/full), this will probably
fix it.

If the file came from a VMS or RSX system, and *SHOULD* have attributes,
but doesn't, then the best thing to do is add the attributes, then run it
through a text editor to convert it to stream-ascii (TECO wil do this by
default.  EDT will probably work too.)

Adding the attributes is a simple SYS() call, but you need to know the
right values.  It might be easiest to see and work with the attributes in
octal:  PIP K11HEX.BAS/LI:S:OA produces

 Name .Typ    Size    Prot  Access      Date     Time   Clu  RTS    Pos
SY:[18,0]
K11HEX.BAS       6   < 56> 19-Dec-97 18-Dec-97 10:55 PM   1            0
 001002 000100 000000 000007 000000 000006 000126
 RF:VAR      FO:SEQ   USED:6:86         RECSI:64    CC:IMP

The 1st number is the record format (variable sequential), the 000100
is the longest record length (happens to be 64 for my version of
k11hex.bas, but it might be different for you version.  I don't think
it hurts to set it to an appropriately large value, such as 80 or
132 (120 or 204 octal, respectively).  The 7 is the allocation; it should
be set to the filesize rounded to the next cluster (or larger), the 6
and the 126 are the last block in use and the offset of the last byte
in the last block.  These numbers are difficult to determine, but
you can just set the last block in use to be the filesize + 1, and
the last byte to 0.  The two zero's (000000) in the middle are the
high words of the allocation and size, and should be 0 for such a small
file.

The syscall to set attributes is

    B$=SYS(CHR$(6%)+CHR$(-25%)+CHR$(1%)+CHR$(11%)+
        cvt%$(atr1%)+cvt%$(atr2%)+...)

I'm not sure if you need to swap the bytes of the atr% words.


After you get the right attributes on the file, run it through
TECO or EDT to make a stream text file, and BASIC should be
satisfied.

If the file came from a UNIX system, it probably has no attributes,
but has <LF> between the lines instead of <CR><LF>.  You can fix this
in TECO by editing the file and doing an <FS^J$<cr>$>$$  (where the
$'s are escapes, and the <cr> is the return key.  The open and close
angle brackets are TECO commands; the tell it to repeat the command
until the FS search-and-replace fails.  The "^J" is literally an
up-arrow followed by a J, which means to TECO a control/j, which is
a line-feed, but ctrl/j itself or the linefeed key would work also.

If the file came from a Mac, then it might have <CR> instead of
<CR><LF>, so you could use a similar TECO command <FS^M$<cr>$>$$
to fix it.

It is possible to do this in EDT as well, but I don't know how.

If the file came from a MS-DOS system, it should be okay.  I think DOS
uses <CR><LF>.

Just in case you have a way of extracting from e-mail, and getting it
to your RSTS/E system, here's the source of K11HEX.BAS, just downloaded
from columbia's FTP server:
=============================================================

10      extend

20    ! 04-Mar-84  23:15:56  Brian Nelson

1000      on error go to 19000                        &
    \ dim xl%(128%)                            &
    \ input.recordsize%  = 4096%                    &
    \ output.recordsize% = 512%                    &
    \ open '_kb:' as file 12%                    &
    \ print 'K11HEX - Decode Kermit-11 Hex files (RSTS/E Basic+)'    &
    \ print                                &
    \ xl%(i%)         = -1% for i% = 0% to 128%            &
    \ xl%(ascii('0')) = 0%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('1')) = 1%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('2')) = 2%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('3')) = 3%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('4')) = 4%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('5')) = 5%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('6')) = 6%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('7')) = 7%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('8')) = 8%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('9')) = 9%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('A')) = 10%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('B')) = 11%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('C')) = 12%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('D')) = 13%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('E')) = 14%                        &
    \ xl%(ascii('F')) = 15%                        &

1020      print 'Input  Hex  file  ? ';                    &
    \ input line #12%, infile$                    &
    \ print 'Output Task image ? ';                    &
    \ input line #12%, outfile$                    &
    \ open.in%  = 0%                        &
    \ open.out% = 0%                        &
    \ infile$  = cvt$$(infile$,-1%)                    &
    \ outfile$ = cvt$$(outfile$,-1%)                &
    \ open infile$    for input as file #1%,                &
            recordsize  input.recordsize%,            &
            mode 8192%                    &
    \ open outfile$    as file #2%, recordsize output.recordsize%    &



1040      while -1%                            &
    \  offset% = 0%                            &
    \  for i% = 1% to 16%                        &
    \    input line #1, rec$                    &
    \    chk% = 0%                            &
    \    for j% = 1% to 32%                        &
    \    k%  = (j% * 2%) - 1%                    &
    \    b%  = xl%( ascii(mid(rec$,k%+0%,1%)) ) * 16%        &
            + xl%( ascii(mid(rec$,k%+1%,1%)) )            &
    \    chk% = chk% + b%                    &
    \    field #2%, offset%+(j%-1%) as junk$, 1% as dat$        &
    \    lset dat$ = chr$(b%)                    &
    \    next j%                            &
    \    c$ = right(rec$,66%)                    &
    \    check% = xl%( ascii(mid(c$,6%,1%)) )            &
            + xl%( ascii(mid(c$,5%,1%)) ) * 16%            &
            + xl%( ascii(mid(c$,4%,1%)) ) * 256%        &
            + xl%( ascii(mid(c$,3%,1%)) ) * 4096%        &
    \    print 'Checksum error - ';chk%,check%            &
            if chk% <> check%                    &
    \    offset% = offset% + 32%                    &
    \  next i%                            &
    \  put #2%                            &
    \ next


19000      er% = err                            &
    \ el% = erl                            &
    \ resume 19020 if er% = 11%                    &
    \ print er%;' error at line number ';,el%            &
    \ resume 32767%                            &

19020      close #1%                            &
    \ close #2%                            &
    \ go to 32767 if el% <> 1040%                    &
    \ cmd$ = 'PIP ' + outfile$ + '<104>/RTS:RSX=' + outfile$    &
    \ print 'Trying to do CCL ';cmd$                &
    \ junk$ = sys(chr$(14%) + cmd$ )                &
    \ go to 32767                            &




32767      end

=============================================================

What worries me is that you may have the same problem with the
format of the K11NRS.HEX file as you have with the K11HEX.BAS file,
since they are both text files and presumably came from a common
source.

I hope this helps!

John Santos

 2-Jan-98  0:51:43-GMT,1761;000000000001
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From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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From: Stuart Brook <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec
Subject: Re: RSX Year 2000 compliant?
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 13:29:28 -0700
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Bo wrote:
>
> We have a pdp11/73 running RSX (I think).  Is this operating system
> year 2000 compliant?  We have a vendor trying to hold us up.  Any
> information will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you
> --
> Bo
>
> replace the " dot " in my address with a .


Depends on the version of RSX ...

RSX-11M+ V4.5, Micro/RSX V4.5, RSX-11M V4.7

are all year 2000 ready

For more information look at http://www.mentec.com and follow the PDP-11
software links.

We are currently working on new options for the RSX family with a
possible new release.

Stuart Brook
PDP-11 Software Engineering
Mentec Inc.

(FYI Mentec acquired much of the PDP-11 software from Digital a few
years ago and has been doing engineering since.)

20-Mar-98  3:39:23-GMT,4128;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:34:15 -0500
From: John Santos <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
CC: "Orzell,Daniel" <[e-mail]>,
        Billy Youdelman
    <[e-mail]>,
        Johnny Bilquist <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FW: Kermit
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On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Frank da Cruz wrote:

[Original attribution lost...]

> >
> > When downloading a sequential file (files-11) from a PDP  (RSX11M+
> >  V4.2) KERMIT T3.49 cannot transmit  ASCII records greater than 160
> >  bytes.   Records larger than 160 bytes can be down loaded in  binary
> >  but the format is altered with unrecognizable characters at the
> >  beginning of each record.  Is there any way of setting KERMIT to allow
> >  ASCII records greater than 160 bytes to be transmitted?    Should we
> >  download as binary or text?   How can we fix this problem?
> >
[snip]
>
>  3. Postprocess the files after transfer.
>
I'm not familiar with RSX's limitations with respect to Kermit, but it
sounds like the files you are getting in binary mode probably have the
RMS record length bytes, which are the junk you see at the beginning of
each record.

If worst comes to worst, and you have to write something to post-process
the records on your PC, maybe this will help.  Each record starts with
a 2-byte length field.  The low order byte is first.  The length is followed
immediately by the record.  (For a text file, the records each consist of
one line of text.)  If the length is odd, there is a fill byte at the end
so the next record starts on an even byte boundary.  The fill byte is
usually a zero, but I don't know if this is enforced.

Usually, there is no explicit carriage control in the records (no CR or
LF), but there is an implied <LF> before and <CR> after each record.  This
is equivalent to an implied <CR><LF> after each record, except for the 1st
and last records.  (I think this funny business is historical, having to
do with printing files on hardcopy terminals and saving paper.  They
didn't advance the paper until they absolutely had to.) For all pratical
purposes, I think all RMS-text-file to stream-file converters just put a
<CR><LF> (I think this is right for DOS and Windows), or an <LF> (for Unix
output), etc. after each record.

Blank lines are caused by a pair of zero length bytes (which converts as a
null data record followed by a <CR><LF>.

Finding the end-of-file is problematic.  The true end-of-file is indicated
by the RMS attributes, which would get lost on a binary transfer to DOS.
Usually, the last block is filled out with <NUL>'s, which would cause a
whole bunch of blank lines at the end of the file.  Sometimes there will
be a record with both length bytes set to 255 at the end-of-file. This is
equvalent to a record length of 65535 or -1, depending on whether you
treat it as a signed or unsigned quantity.  I've seen this dumping out
some text files, but not others.  Normally, the maximum legal record size
in an RMS variable file (which is how RSX stores text files) is 32767, so
anything with the sign bit set in the high byte of the record length would
be normally be illegal.

Hope this helps!

John Santos

22-Mar-98 15:53:11-GMT,4051;000000000005
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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:52:38 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
cc: "Orzell,Daniel" <[e-mail]>,
        Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FW: Kermit
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On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> >  Please let me know if you can help us out with the problem below.   We
> >  need to transfer files from our PDP-11 to our PC in a text format.
> >  Any help you could provide would be most beneficial.   We are using
> >  WinComm Pro V. 1.1 as our PC Emulation Package.   We have just ordered
> >  Kermit 95 and will be using this to download from now on.
> >
> > From: Miller,Paul S
> > To: Orzell,Daniel
> > Subject: Kermit
> > Date: Thursday, March 19, 1998 4:08PM
> >
> > Jamie,
> >
> > When downloading a sequential file (files-11) from a PDP  (RSX11M+
> >  V4.2) KERMIT T3.49 cannot transmit  ASCII records greater than 160
> >  bytes.   Records larger than 160 bytes can be down loaded in  binary
> >  but the format is altered with unrecognizable characters at the
> >  beginning of each record.  Is there any way of setting KERMIT to allow
> >  ASCII records greater than 160 bytes to be transmitted?    Should we
> >  download as binary or text?   How can we fix this problem?
> >
> I hate to say it, but the RSX-11 version of Kermit has been an orphan for
> almost 10 years now.  My simpleminded guess would be that you would need to
> redefine a constant somewhere that specifies the maximum "line" (record)
> length for text lines and reassemble.  If you can figure out how to do that,
> it might do the trick.  Failing that...
>
>  1. Upgrade to the latest (last) version of Kermit-11
>     for RSX, T3.60, and see if it has a bigger line buffer.
>     See the PDP-11 section of our website:
>
>       http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html
>
>  2. Preprocess the files before transfer.
>
>  3. Postprocess the files after transfer.
>
> I've cc'd this reply to some people who might be able to offer better
> advice.

I wish I could offer more help, but I've been lost in limbo for a while.
However, the advice about getting a more recent version of KERMIT-11 is
definitely good.

And while still a very unofficial version, I do have something I called
T3.61, which fixes an annoying attribute bug in K11 for RSX. I think it
should be uploaded to Columbia (whenever I have the time to package the
stuff...).

KERMIT-11 for RSX is not currently actively supported by anoyone, though I
have plans to do something about it.
Note that there exist a PDP-11 KERMIT called KRT, which is only for RT-11
and RSTS/E. :-/ (That's where the RSX support should jump on the wagon.)

Anyway, to get T3.61 of RSX KERMIT-11, try ftp.update.uu.se:/pub/pdp11
where you will find the two patches for T3.60 to get to T3.61. There is
also the whole stuff there, as k11mit.tar.Z.

I can also get you a binary if you are running M+ V3.0 or later on a split
I/D machine.

    Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: [e-mail]           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

23-Mar-98 19:29:39-GMT,3475;000000000011
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:07:46 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: KRT Release Notes for the RT-11 V.57 distribution
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Hi -

Appended is a short piece regarding KRT to be included in Mentec's
RT-11 V5.7 Release Notes.  Please look this over and let me know if
it's all adequate as regards ensuring the Kermit Project maintains
a proper interest in the distribution of its software - if any
corrections or changes are needed just let me know.

Thanks!

Billy Y..

Kermit is a file transfer protocol availabile on an extremely wide range
of data processing platforms.  With the permission of Columbia University's
Kermit Project and for your convenience the RT-11 Kermit communications
software (KRT) is included in this distribution.  Installation is quite
simple, please see the file KRT.DOC in KRT363.DSK for complete details.

KRT provides the following features and services -

1.  File transfers to and from RT-11 via a serial line interface or
the console port to any other system that has a Kermit implimentation
of its own.  If Kermit is not present on the other machine please
contact [e-mail] or telephone [phone] for
help locating a suitable version.

2.  A telephone dialer which can support virtually any modem if it
is not amongst those pre-defined.  Fallback to the connected speed
is supported for serial line interfaces that allow the speed to be
modified.  Unsuccessful calls may be retried automatically.

3.  A very efficient terminal mode with which to attach yours to the
remote system via the serial line interface.

4.  Complete debugging facilities.  In the rare event a problem is
encountered various data may be logged to a file and/or displayed on
the controlling terminal such that the cause may be easily located.

5.  A very fast on-line HELP facility which details everything
contained in KRT - operational questions may be quickly answered
without leaving Kermit.

6.  Floppy disk only or very small RT-11 systems may use a special
version of KRT named KRTMIN which is much smaller at the expense of
only comunicating through the RT-11 console port.  This is provided
in a separate logical disk named KRTMIN.DSK and described in the
the file KRTMIN.DOC.

7.  KRT and KRTMIN are both completely Year-2000 compliant.

For an in-depth discussion of Kermit from its fundamentals through
detailed descriptions of its operation and how best to use it please
consult:

   "Kermit, A File Transfer Protocol" by Frank da Cruz, 1987
   Digital Press, order number: EY-6705E-DP  (in USA phone: [phone])
   Digital Press ISBN 0-932376-88-6, Prentice Hall ISBN 0-13-514753-0

KRT is a fully supported Kermit.  This release (V3.63) has been
thoroughly tested over a period of several years and extensively
with RT-11 V5.7.  If you encounter any bug or problem at all the
maintainer would appreciate your reporting it, and it will be
given prompt attention.


23-Mar-98 19:40:17-GMT,4148;000000000001
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    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:39:12 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 14:39:12 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: KRT Release Notes for the RT-11 V.57 distribution
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:07:46 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> Appended is a short piece regarding KRT to be included in Mentec's
> RT-11 V5.7 Release Notes.  Please look this over and let me know if
> it's all adequate as regards ensuring the Kermit Project maintains
> a proper interest in the distribution of its software - if any
> corrections or changes are needed just let me know.
>
> Thanks!
>
Looks fine, just a couple small comments, plus updated & expanded
contact info.

> Kermit is a file transfer protocol availabile on an extremely wide range
> of data processing platforms.  With the permission of Columbia University's
> Kermit Project and for your convenience the RT-11 Kermit communications
> software (KRT) is included in this distribution.  Installation is quite
> simple, please see the file KRT.DOC in KRT363.DSK for complete details.
>
> KRT provides the following features and services -
>
> 1.  File transfers to and from RT-11 via a serial line interface or
> the console port to any other system that has a Kermit implimentation
>
implementation

> of its own.  If Kermit is not present on the other machine please
> contact [e-mail] or telephone [phone] for
> help locating a suitable version.
>
Here is the current contact info:

Postal address:                 Telephone:
    The Kermit Project             [phone] (Ordering Information)
    Columbia University            [phone] ($25/call tech support)
    612 West 115th Street          [phone] ($2.50/minute tech support)
    New York NY  10025-7799        [phone] (Fax)
    USA                            [phone] (Alternate Fax)

Email:                          Web:
    [e-mail]            http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/
    [e-mail]     http://kermit-project.org/
    [e-mail]

> 2.  A telephone dialer which can support virtually any modem if it
> is not amongst those pre-defined.
>
Or even if it is!

> Fallback to the connected speed
> is supported for serial line interfaces that allow the speed to be
> modified.  Unsuccessful calls may be retried automatically.
>
> 3.  A very efficient terminal mode with which to attach yours to the
> remote system via the serial line interface.
>
> 4.  Complete debugging facilities.  In the rare event a problem is
> encountered various data may be logged to a file and/or displayed on
> the controlling terminal such that the cause may be easily located.
>
> 5.  A very fast on-line HELP facility which details everything
> contained in KRT - operational questions may be quickly answered
> without leaving Kermit.
>
> 6.  Floppy disk only or very small RT-11 systems may use a special
> version of KRT named KRTMIN which is much smaller at the expense of
> only comunicating through the RT-11 console port.  This is provided
> in a separate logical disk named KRTMIN.DSK and described in the
> the file KRTMIN.DOC.
>
> 7.  KRT and KRTMIN are both completely Year-2000 compliant.
>
Assuming RT version xxxx or higher...

> For an in-depth discussion of Kermit from its fundamentals through
> detailed descriptions of its operation and how best to use it please
> consult:
>
>    "Kermit, A File Transfer Protocol" by Frank da Cruz, 1987
>    Digital Press, order number: EY-6705E-DP  (in USA phone: [phone])
>    Digital Press ISBN 0-932376-88-6, Prentice Hall ISBN 0-13-514753-0
>
> KRT is a fully supported Kermit.  This release (V3.63) has been
> thoroughly tested over a period of several years and extensively
> with RT-11 V5.7.  If you encounter any bug or problem at all the
> maintainer would appreciate your reporting it, and it will be
> given prompt attention.

Looks great, thanks!

- Frank

 8-May-98 13:54:38-GMT,2225;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 8 May 98 9:53:10 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "Barry L. Goode" <[e-mail]>
cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
        John Santos <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: k95-kermit11 exchange
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 7 May 1998 22:27:46 -0400
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I have a pdp11 running Kermit11 v 3.59.
>
On RSX?

> I need to transfer files = to the
> W95 OS so I bought k95(ser #k95-00008193810-1.1). I have had no luck xfering
> the files while keeping the original DEC PDP11 long file format of 9.3;1----
> I called your 2.50$/min 900 number and talked to somebody that actually said
> "a pdp what??".
>
He's young.  99% of our calls are about current products; when he gets a call
he can't handle, he bounces it to us older guys, which is what he did.  As
Jeff pointed out, you're not going to be able to find too many people who know
about PDP-11s who will take a job answering phones.

> Included is packet.log file for somebody that actually knows
> Kermit to view. I purchased k95 by the promise of LONG FILE NAME
> capability and if this not possible can I return the product for a refund??
>
> I've tried it on a couple of PCs -- same results. Is this suppose to be a
> mature product?
>
As Jeff observed, it's Kermit-11 that is chopping off the filename, not K95.

And as you can see at the PDP-11 section of our website:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

the RSX version has not had any attention in about 10 years, due to lack of
programmers who are both willing and able to work on it (the RT and RSTS
versions have fared better).

I'm cc'ing this to some PDP-11 aficionados in case they can offer any hints
on how to get Kermit-11 on RSX to send the full file name.

As a final resort, you can look in the Kermit-11 source code and find the
place where the name is converted, remove that code, and rebuild.  If this
interests you, let me know.

- Frank

 8-May-98 18:14:54-GMT,2204;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:41:44 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: k95-kermit11 exchange
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 08 May 1998 09:53:10 -0400 (EDT)"
 <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: "Barry L. Goode" <[e-mail]>
Cc: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>,
        Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
        John Santos <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
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Hi -

> > I have had no luck xfering
> > the files while keeping the original DEC PDP11 long file format of 9.3;1----
                                                                          ^^^^^^
If you want to preserve the version numbers of files ...

> As Jeff observed, it's Kermit-11 that is chopping off the filename, not K95.

Kermit-11 would have to be patched and rebuilt to accomplish this.
The source module involved is K11CVT.MAC - near the top of it you'll
see this -

        chtype   0      ,1              ; exit on null
        chtype  15      ,1              ; exit on <cr>
        chtype  73      ,1              ; exit on ';'

The last line shown above would become -

        chtype  73      ,7              ; treat ';' as a valid character

There may also be some other code that needs patching, I maintain
the RT-11 Kermit but I don't have RSX and thus I'm not familiar
with the RSX-specific modules of Kermit-11, but I suspect this is
the only place in it that deals with the version component of the
file name.

For those CC'd here K11CVT.MAC became KRTCVT.MAC but this part of
it remains essentially the same -

        chtype  scolon  ,1              ; exit on ";" version delimiter

Regards,

Billy Y..

10-May-98 12:14:26-GMT,3404;000000000005
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:14:17 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
cc: "Barry L. Goode" <[e-mail]>, Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>,
        John Santos <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: k95-kermit11 exchange
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> > Included is packet.log file for somebody that actually knows
> > Kermit to view. I purchased k95 by the promise of LONG FILE NAME
> > capability and if this not possible can I return the product for a refund??
> >
> > I've tried it on a couple of PCs -- same results. Is this suppose to be a
> > mature product?
> >
> As Jeff observed, it's Kermit-11 that is chopping off the filename, not K95.
>
> And as you can see at the PDP-11 section of our website:
>
>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html
>
> the RSX version has not had any attention in about 10 years, due to lack of
> programmers who are both willing and able to work on it (the RT and RSTS
> versions have fared better).
>
> I'm cc'ing this to some PDP-11 aficionados in case they can offer any hints
> on how to get Kermit-11 on RSX to send the full file name.
>
> As a final resort, you can look in the Kermit-11 source code and find the
> place where the name is converted, remove that code, and rebuild.  If this
> interests you, let me know.

First of all. I just tried sending a 9+3 character named file from RSX to
Unix, and it worked just fine. No chopping took place.
The filename was converted to lowercase, but that's something from
c-kermit. So don't go blame Kermit-11 here. :-)

Second, Kermit-11 accepts two arguments to put, the second being the name
of the file at the remote end. Kermit-11 don't do anything with this name,
you can put lots of "funny" stuff here without problems. I tried a very
long filename here, without any problems.

I'm sorry that I cannot help any more, but these were observations just
made on my local RSX system, connected to a Unix system.

The version I'm using is my local T3.61. The last official version is
T3.60, I believe.
Start up at least upgrading the the latest available version. You can also
get T3.61 from ftp.update.uu.se, even though it isn't really official,
supported or anything else. It's just T3.60 with a bugfix for zero length
attribute packets, which cased Kermit-11 to crash.
(I know, it should make its way to columbia...)

    Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: [e-mail]           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

10-May-98 22:26:49-GMT,1986;000000000001
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    Mon, 11 May 1998 00:26:45 +0200
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:26:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
cc: [e-mail], "Barry L. Goode" <[e-mail]>,
        Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>
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> > First of all. I just tried sending a 9+3 character named file from RSX to
> > Unix, and it worked just fine. No chopping took place.
> > The filename was converted to lowercase, but that's something from
> > c-kermit. So don't go blame Kermit-11 here. :-)
>
> The questions is: "can you send the +1"?  It is the version info that
> is being chopped.
>
> The C-Kermit conversion can be prevented by specifying SET FILE NAMES
> LITERAL.

Aha! Sorry. My mistake. I got the impression that it chopped off one
letter. Billy has already answered the stuff about modifying the Kermit-11
code.

File version numbering isn't really a part of the filename proper, so
that's why it is stripped off normally.

One could ask what the result ought to be of ;0, which semantically means
the latest version, and ;-1, which means the oldest version...

    Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: [e-mail]           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:26:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
cc: [e-mail], "Barry L. Goode" <[e-mail]>,
        Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: k95-kermit11 exchange
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> > First of all. I just tried sending a 9+3 character named file from RSX to
> > Unix, and it worked just fine. No chopping took place.
> > The filename was converted to lowercase, but that's something from
> > c-kermit. So don't go blame Kermit-11 here. :-)
>
> The questions is: "can you send the +1"?  It is the version info that
> is being chopped.
>
> The C-Kermit conversion can be prevented by specifying SET FILE NAMES
> LITERAL.

Aha! Sorry. My mistake. I got the impression that it chopped off one
letter. Billy has already answered the stuff about modifying the Kermit-11
code.

File version numbering isn't really a part of the filename proper, so
that's why it is stripped off normally.

One could ask what the result ought to be of ;0, which semantically means
the latest version, and ;-1, which means the oldest version...

    Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: [e-mail]           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

28-Jan-98 18:35:54-GMT,1785;000000000005
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From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]

Newsgroups: comp.os.rsts
Subject: Re: Compaq to develop PC-RSTS/E
References: <6anhkb$[e-mail]>
Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY
From: [e-mail] (John Wilson)
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Date: 28 Jan 98 18:17:08 GMT
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Xref: news.columbia.edu comp.os.rsts:1005

In article <6anhkb$[e-mail]>,
Charlie Byrne <[e-mail]> wrote:
>I'm hearing rumors Compaq may bring back RSTS and put it on PC's.
>
>Just think what you could do on a home machine with 32 Meg. 32K used to be
>enough!
>
>PS: Don't tell anyone but just kidding about those rumors.

Joking aside, RSTS already runs great on PCs with a good PDP-11 emulator.
The free demo version of my E11 emulator is on www.dbit.com and can emulate
a modest 11/44, 11/70 etc. system well enough to run 2 or 3 users nicely under
RSTS.  The full commercial version will be released very shortly and is at
least triple 11/94 speed on a high-end P II (and can do better, depending),
supports multi-serial boards and raw SCSI disks/tapes and should be a nice
upgrade to any RSTS system.  It's just spooky seeing "Option: <Start>" pop
up on a PC's screen w/o hearing any roaring fans and disk motors nearby...

John Wilson
D Bit

28-Jul-98 14:26:26-GMT,3269;000000000001
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From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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From: "John A. Santos" <[e-mail]>
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On 24 Jul 1998, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> In article <6p9v12$552$[e-mail]>,  <[e-mail]> wrote:
> : Does anyone have any ideas concerning moving data back & forth between RSTS
> : 6c & "Intel" pc's. Ones I have considered: 1. 9-t mag tape, have on rsts but
> : $1000 for pc card 2. network, have on pc's, have deuna for 11 but drivers
> : don't exist for v6c 3. binary transfer, currently do but some bugs, also rsts
> : very slow ie 4800 baud 4. unibus - pc bus interface, $$ if avail + software
> : expertise needed 5. just rewrite software - takes time & I spend most of my
> : time doing processing  & some hardware, ie card-reader, etc I don't have
> : with suitable interfaces for pc's, etc etc 6. emulation on pc-- drivers for
> : older Fuji eagles on pc not avail
> :
> 4800 bps might be slow, but if you start the transfer now while you're looking
> into the other options, it might be finished before you come to any other
> conclusions.  Kermit software is available for both ends of the transfer:
>
>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/
>
> Except I'm not sure if Kermit-11 for RSTS will run on V6.
>
> - Frank
>
>

According to K11USR.DOC, Kermit-11 will only run on V7.2 or later, and
can only be built on V8.0 or later, due to the use of RMS11 V2.0 and
new assembler directives.

I only ever tried to build KRT (the new version of Kermit-11, based
on Billy Yodleman's many improvements) on RSTS/E V10.1, which is all
I had access to.  I think it should work on any V9.0 or later, and
maybe even as far back as V7.2, but I have no way to try it.

V6C must be over twenty years old now!  I suppose upgrading is
impossible... (Though if you did, you would need at least V9.3 to
support Ethernet, IIRC.  This still wouldn't let you talk to the
PC unless you installed a DECnet package on the PC, or wrote a raw
ethernet application.  No version of RSTS, as far as I know, supports
TCP/IP.)

BTW, you should be able to run at 9600 baud, if you have a DH11 or maybe
even with a DZ11.  What kind of terminal interface are you using?  DL11's
and DJ11's probably won't work at that speed for file transfers due to
lack of buffering, but both DZ's and DH's have an input silo.

John Santos

11-Aug-98 15:13:10-GMT,1897;000000000015
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Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.os.rsts,comp.sys.dec
Subject: Ersatz-11 demo machine
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D Bit has installed a telnettable demo machine running RSX-11M-PLUS V4.5 under
the "full" version of Ersatz-11, which anyone is free to use.  The intent is
to allow users to evaluate E11's speed/compatibility on their own code if it
won't fit into the freeware evaluation/hobby version (which has significant
limitations), but anyone who just needs or wants access to an RSX machine
is also welcome to use it.  Just please keep in mind that there's currently
only one telnet port (actually a serial connection through another machine),
so please don't hog it.  Create as many files as you want (the machine has
Kermit so you can get your files in), but please clean up when you're done.

    telnet://demo.dbit.com (log in as USER/USER)

Configuration:

    Pentium II @ 400 MHz, 32 MB SDRAM, Asus P2B motherboard
    Diamond Fireport 40, 2.2 GB Quantum Atlas II UW SCSI disk
    DR-DOS V7.02, RSX-11M-PLUS V4.5, Ersatz-11 V2.0L

John Wilson
D Bit  www.dbit.com

11-Aug-98 15:38:08-GMT,1561;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98 11:37:57 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] (John Wilson)
Subject: Re: Ersatz-11 demo machine
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:13:10 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> D Bit has installed a telnettable demo machine running RSX-11M-PLUS V4.5
> under the "full" version of Ersatz-11, which anyone is free to use.  The
> intent is to allow users to evaluate E11's speed/compatibility on their own
> code if it won't fit into the freeware evaluation/hobby version (which has
> significant limitations), but anyone who just needs or wants access to an
> RSX machine is also welcome to use it.  Just please keep in mind that
> there's currently only one telnet port (actually a serial connection through
> another machine), so please don't hog it.  Create as many files as you want
> (the machine has Kermit so you can get your files in)...
>
I noticed you have K11 3.60 for RSX there -- I wonder if you have any interest
into bringing the RSX version current with the RT and/or RSTS versions, which
are way ahead of it in terms of bug fixes (and to some extent) features.  If
so, let me know and I'll put you in touch with the RT Kermit guy (Billy
Youdelman) and the RSTS Kermit guy (John Santos), in case you don't already
know them.

Thanks!

- Frank

P.S. Good to see RSX again -- it's been a while...

11-Aug-98 17:03:36-GMT,2927;000000000015
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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:03:58 -0400
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
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Subject: Re: Ersatz-11 demo machine

>I noticed you have K11 3.60 for RSX there --

That was the newest I could find...

>I wonder if you have any interest
>into bringing the RSX version current with the RT and/or RSTS versions, which
>are way ahead of it in terms of bug fixes (and to some extent) features.

Interest sure, but probably not the resources;  I'm totally swamped with
work on Ersatz-11 (which has been a commercial product for almost a year
now so I've got a bunch of actual customers leaning on me for bug fixes and
upgrades, not just hobby users), and I've haven't done much programming on
RSX, I'm much more comfortable with RT and RSTS.  So I'm probably not the
best guy for the job.  But it would suit my purposes to have more Kermits
around that can transfer entire raw disks as a single giant file, since
that's what my emulator needs to emulate the disks, so I periodically throw
some time on my own PDP-11 Kermit project(s) (which I've bored you about
before), next time I get into that mode (much needed for my customers since
there's still no stand-alone Kermit for the 11, which would be handy for
people running MUMPS or weird home-grown OSes for which no Kermit exists)
it might be a relatively short jump to understand enough about RSX terminal
I/O to do some work on K11 too.  I assume all of the current Columbia PDP-11
Kermits were originally intended to come from the same source code base
with conditionals and add-on files to handle differences between OSes right?
I guess it would be hard to push it back in that direction since Billy and
John are presumably attached to their divergent versions, it wouldn't be a
good thing to step on their toes, but if they haven't gone too far it might
not be too hard to incorporate their fixes.  Eventually I plan to make my
RT-11 KSERVE.SAV program (which is a lot more bare-bones than K11 but does
have sliding windows) a bit more portable (so it will run under RSX, and
stand-alone too) but I should probably not cloud things by contributing that,
especially because I don't want it to be subject to Columbia's distribution
rules (I *wish* more of my stuff would turn up on CD-ROM collections!).

>P.S. Good to see RSX again -- it's been a while...

Hopefully I'll get enough cash together to get machines/licenses for RSTS
and RT (or TSX) too, one of these days.  The more demos the better!

John Wilson
D Bit

11-Aug-98 22:23:53-GMT,4339;000000000011
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From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Ersatz-11 demo machine

>Actually, there is a Kermit for MUMPS, and it's in our archive.  But I never
>had any evidence that anybody except the person who wrote it actually used it,
>or that the form that it's stored in on the archive is usable / decodable by
>anybody.

Wow, I wish I'd noticed that.  I've only talked to a couple of MUMPS users,
I was interested in adding a MUMPS mode to a file insert/extract utility I
wrote but I was told that MUMPS didn't really even have the concept of
"files" which makes file transfer a bit difficult.  Well they've got to
have *something* (big strings or something) to hold their code in...

>As I understand it, most of the work is at a higher level -- integrating
>some Kermit protocol bug fixes from the RT and RSTS versions is the main order
>of business (K-11 negotiates Attribute packets, but then implements them
>incorrectly, so all transfers between K-11 3.60 and earlier fail unless the
>user tells it to "set attributes off").

Yeah attributes packets are tricky, the state handling gets confusing if
sliding windows are in use too.  But if the tranmission/reception part is
OK, actually generating and interpreting the packet contents shouldn't
be a big problem.  I gather Billy's totally on top of the nasty raw
directory hacking code needed to set file dates etc. under RT, that's the
only hard part I can think of.

>Other stuff like sliding windows
>would be nice to add, but nobody is screaming for it since 11s tend to have
>other bottlenecks (the DH-11 comes to mind).

Yeah I wasn't able to crank things up too high in my Kermit server,
especially since I did most of the debugging on RT-11 V4.0 which only
has a 120-byte input buffer for the console terminal, so you can't get
even one packet ahead in that direction.

>Billy & John both would like to see the sources re-integrated, but neither
>have had time to do it.  There's no rivalry at all.  There's also a guy in
>Sweden, Johnny Billquist -- you probably know him -- who might be able to
>pitch in with some RSX expertise.  Actually, I'm sure you must know all these
>guys better than I do.  John Santos dropped out when machines died (leaving
>the new RSTS version in permanent Beta test), but he'd like to get back into
>it, time permitting.  Billy tends to be pretty eager too, but his version is
>pretty much up to date in terms of bug fixes, Y2K, etc.  Of course I can't
>speak for them.

Hmm supporting RSTS Kermit sounds like it might be worth me donating a copy of
Ersatz-11 to John Santos -- assuming he has a spare 80x86 PC to run it, and the
RSTS license paperwork and dist kit is still around from his dead machine(s).
Johnny Billquist is great, it seems like he gets into everything sooner or
later.

>We don't get anything out of the PDP-11 version -- you can put any copyright
>notice and conditions you want on your version.  We already signed a contract
>with Mentec to let them distribute K-11 -- no money involved.

Cool!  I was wondering how they swung that, or whether they just assumed you
wouldn't mind.  Glad to hear they did it right.

>I have a
>nostalgic affection for PDP-11s (and -8s, and -10s, and 12s, and even -7s) --
>they were among the first machines I worked on.

Yeah it's really nice after all those years of watching my 11s deteriorate
(either that or they'd rack up huge power bills when they *did* work well),
it's pretty cool being able to pop up a nice fast 11 any time I want to
play with it.  I'd love to get back into 10s, I've got a garage full of
them (finally found some collectors who want to give my KL-2065 a good
home but I do plan to run at least one KS myself).  A while ago I tried
to get Columbia's MM-20 clone to compile on Linux but failed bigtime,
gotta spend some time on that some day.

John Wilson
D Bit

12-Aug-98  1:01:20-GMT,1178;000000000005
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From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Ersatz-11 demo machine

>I'm sure he'd be thrilled to hear from you: [e-mail].

Thanks for the address, I just sent him a message there.

>You know about the new KLs, right?  At TOAD.COM?

Yeah I visited them in person back before the machines were completed,
it was like a religious experience!  I just wish I'd thought to bring
along a camera to take a picture of their real KL's DC wiring harness,
since whoever reattaches the three bays together on my KL will need to
know which color wire goes on which unmarked PSU terminal.

>I'll get back to you about mm as soon as I hear back about it.

Thanks!

John Wilson
D Bit

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 10:02:59 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ersatz-11 demo machine
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:24:29 -0400
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> >Actually, there is a Kermit for MUMPS, and it's in our archive.  But I
> >never had any evidence that anybody except the person who wrote it actually
> >used it, or that the form that it's stored in on the archive is usable /
> >decodable by anybody.
>
> Wow, I wish I'd noticed that.  I've only talked to a couple of MUMPS users,
> I was interested in adding a MUMPS mode to a file insert/extract utility I
> wrote but I was told that MUMPS didn't really even have the concept of
> "files" which makes file transfer a bit difficult.  Well they've got to
> have *something* (big strings or something) to hold their code in...
>
Well, if you want to take a look at what we have here, the MUMPS files are in
ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/mp*.*.

I used MUMPS for a short while a long time ago, back in the heyday of the
11/45.  Each PDP-11 OS had a distinctive pattern to display in the panel
lights when it was idle -- left-to-right, right-to-left, etc.  MUMPS had a
center-outward pattern that looked like, well, a case of mumps...

> >As I understand it, most of the work is at a higher level -- integrating
> >some Kermit protocol bug fixes from the RT and RSTS versions is the main
> >order of business (K-11 negotiates Attribute packets, but then implements
> >them incorrectly, so all transfers between K-11 3.60 and earlier fail
> >unless the user tells it to "set attributes off").
>
> Yeah attributes packets are tricky...
>
K11 was the first to implement this feature, so there was nothing to test it
against.  By the time we had attribute packets going in the other Kermit
programs and discovered the mistake in K11, Brian Nelson was out of the PDP-11
business, and nobody has touched the RSX version since.

About MM -- I guess we don't have an out-of-the can Linux version after all,
which surprises me.  Our sole surviving MM author says:

> >Somebody mentioned to me that they tried to build mm on Linux but failed
> >(no details).  I assume people have done this, right?
>
> We don't have any "official" linux support, though the Solaris port was
> mostly posix stuff that probably is similar for linux.  They may want to
> grab the solaris snapshot (same place).

- Frank

28-Sep-98 17:19:58-GMT,3755;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Problems
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 <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

> > II.  I have set the carrier-watch off.  One thing he did suggest was to
> > make sure the speed, flow control and parity were the same.  The RT-11
> > port is set as a console (set line tt:).  My understanding is that the
> > speed cannot be set on that port - so what should I set the Kermit 95
> > setting at?
> >
> The same speed that you used on MS-DOS Kermit when it worked for you on this
> same connection.  Or just try different speeds until you get one that works.
> Probably 9600 would be a good first guess.

Speed is usually set by wire wrapping on the appropriate terminals of
the serial line interface board in the PDP-11.  9600 is the most likely
speed, then 19,200 or perhaps 1200 or 2400 if it's a really old machine.

> > The flow control on the RT-11 is (set RT-11 flow)  what would
> > the equilvalent be for Kermit 95?
> >
> Probably "set flow xon/xoff".  If that doesn't work, try "set flow none".

RT-11 uses XON/XOFF - the only alternative is to use the KM communications
handler I supply with the KRT Kermit which also does hardware flow control
but that is not likely necessary here.  KM's main use is with modems that
have trouble with XOFF flow control.

> > The parity has been set at none on both machines.
> >
> That should be OK.

Actually RT-11 as distributed is a seven-bit system (KM also supports
eight-bit data transfers) so space parity is forced on in Kermit there.
This is to support transfer of binary (eight-bit) data - when Kermit
sees the parity bit in use it enables sending eight-bit characters by
quoting them such that they'll survive a seven-bit path.  Parity can be
set to none after Kermit is started on the RT-11 host if need be but
setting parity to space as well on the other Kermit is probably what's
needed here and will be necessary to transfer any eight-bit data.

> >     The RT-11 also has the long_packets off - is there anything that
> > needs to be done in Kermit 95 concerning that command?
> >
> No.  Kermit 95 is perfectly capable of receiving long packets.

RT-11 can send long packets without any problems but when receiving files
via the RT-11 console terminal port small packets will have to be used,
probably around 56 bytes.  This is because RT-11 isn't expecting anything
faster than input by a user from a keyboard and here when the input buffer
overflows it only rings the terminal bell - flow control is never actually
asserted - thus data must be sent slowly to avoid any overrun.

If you need any additional help with the PDP-11 end of this please feel
free to contact me directly.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
[e-mail]
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

 1-Oct-98 17:01:26-GMT,7635;000000000001
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TO:  All Current Users of RT-11 Application Programs

I have been approached by a number of companies to fix the
bugs in their  RT-11/TSX-PLUS  application programs, in
particular with regard to Year 2000 Bugs, but all bugs
in general, as well as making some enhancements where
deemed appropriate.

In some cases, the number of changes to be made was
trivial.  In some cases, they had not retained or did not
have access to their sources, and the number of changes
was too large to figure out from just the SAV files.  In
other cases, it was possible to figure out how to do a
very few patches based on what the program was
doing.  If anyone is really interested, I can provide
a few examples.

The applications which are the easiest to solve are
those written in FORTRAN or MACRO assembler
or some combination.  "C" is only a little more
difficult.  I have not used Dibol or Cobol for so
long that I am rusty on these last two.  If you
(at this very late date) still would like to keep the
old programs that execute under RT-11/TSX-PLUS
(note that I specified only the software - the hardware
is another matter which does have a number of possible
solutions depending on the application), please contact
me at the above e-mail address.

Note that Sources are almost always required to do
the work in an inexpensive manner.  However, if
the investment in software was very large and there
are only a few aspects which are Y2K dependent,
it may even be possible to patch the executable
files.  It would all depend on just how much
documentation is available and how complex
is the overall application.  One key aspect is that
the old PDP-11 hardware need not always be
the sole means by which the applications must
still be run.  In simple situations, it is possible to
substitute a PC without changing any of the
programs, including the operating system.  I have
seen all manner of PDP-11 OSs running under
and emulator which runs under W95 (or MS-DOS).
In particular, a Pentium 233 MMX runs at many times
the speed of a PDP-11/93.  In sample benchmarks
for RT-11 under W95 using the E11 emulator
written by John Wilson, approximately 3 * 11/93
speeds were achieved.  Absolutely no code
was changed from the real PDP-11 to be run
under E11 on the PC under W95.

Note that I am not offering a single one price simple
solution for all computer sites.  In fact, I am not
offering any solutions whatsoever.  What I am
saying is that each computer system would have to
be evaluated individually - and that could be the
real problem.  If you are too far away - I am in
Toronto - and the initial evaluation can't be done
over the phone or by e-mail, the cost can quickly
get out of hand.  What I am offering is an initial
evaluation of whether or not there is any prospect
that a solution can even be found which is worth
while.

But, on the other hand, I do know of a number
of sites who are using the Y2K problems to justify a
switch to a PC at 10 times the cost due to a complete
re-write.  This solution re-writes the application
completely and does not use an emulator of
any kind.  Even if the sources are unavailable, then
some systems can be speeded up very dramatically
without changing any code at all and for far less than
the $ US 25,000 that was mentioned a short time
ago by "Ron".  For TSX-PLUS, there is already
a Y2K compliant version of the operating system
for the part that replaces the RMON and the KMON.
For RT-11, Mentec announced V5.7 to initially be
released in about June or July of 1997.  The release
date has been moved up at least 3 times and is currently
in field test.  For those sites who do not use the date
at all, but no longer want to depend on the PDP-11
hardware or "could use" a dramatic speed improvement,
there are a number of possibilities depending on the
current hardware being used.  If only a maximum of three
serial lines are in use for terminals along with only a
small amount of disk storage (up to 2 GBytes), there are
simple replacement solutions based on a standard PC
running W95 and using the E11 emulator mentioned above.
Of course, this solution is not limited to only those sites
that don't use the date at all.

One other solution to the Y2K problem is to subtract
28 from the year (I believe it is the Rule of 28 - if not
28 some value in the 20s).  This results in a year in which
all the days of the month fall on that same day of the week.
The problem in RT-11 is that some of the system utilities
regard a year portion of zero (RT-11 uses base = 1972)
as being an illegal or bad date even though it produces
a well defined date of 1972 (DIR is quite happy with 1972).

Of course, in RT-11, the date does not really break (for
the currently released V5.6 and prior versions) until
01-Jan-2004.  So, if you stop using your system for a
year until 2001, you can set the date back to 1973 and
all the days of the week will match.  (I am trying to inject a
bit of humour into a very serious situation.  If you did not
understand that the last sentence was said tongue in
cheek, that is how it was meant!)

If there is any interest, please e-mail me directly or
start the initial discussion within the news group where
more suggestions will be available than I may be able
to recommend or be aware of.

Note that I don't bother with a web page since I am
only interested in RT-11/TSX-PLUS software.  I
find just using a PC to be enough of a bother.  But,
via e-mail, most communication can be carried on.

If your system is running RSX or RSTS/E, I can
help a bit with the hardware aspect, but I suggest
you go elsewhere for software solutions as my
primary focus from a software point of view is
an RT-11 based system.

Comments on this post are always invited (including
flames if that is how you prefer to answer a serious
problem - in general, I prefer to work with others
in co-operation rather than as an adversary).  There
may be few if any responses either because all the
Y2K work has been done or because most sites
are switching from RT-11/TSX-PLUS to a PC
based solution.  This post does not address the
needs of hobby users at this time since they are
expected to maintain their own application programs
and are assumed to be unable to pay for such
maintenance - which is the definition of a hobby
user.  In the future, I will also address the needs
of the hobby user.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine
RT-11/TSX-PLUS  User/Addict
Year 2000 Solutions for RT-11 Legacy Applications
(Sources not always required)

10-Dec-98 17:43:14-GMT,3054;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:28:18 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: ?MON-F-Trap to 10 032564 from KRT.SAV
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:23:30 -0500 (EST)"
 <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

The hex decoder program uses a simple checksum at the end of each
line of hex text to test for errors but it could be something has
gotten past this check, particularly if there was a problem which
truncated the file transfer at the end of a line.  The copy should
be made at a slow speed (9600 or less) and may need to be slowed
further by having the sending end pace the transmission using
delays between lines, or characters, or both.

Also, what version of RT-11 are you running, and which monitor(s)?
There is some small chance you may need a different version of KRT.
If you only need transfers via the PDP-11 console terminal port
there is a special version of KRT named krtmin.hex, available at
the same place you got krt.hex, which will work with RT-11 back
through V3B.  If you have RT-11 V4 only the RT-11FB monitor is
supported by the full KRT Kermit - this is due to too many missing
features in earlier versions of RT - I wrote krtmin to make up
for as much of this as possible.

And if there's anything further I can do to help please feel free
to contact me directly.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
[e-mail]
Maintainer of the KRT Kermit


> > Thank you very much for your guidance. You had told us the file "krt.hex"
> > for our solution and a program for unhexifying. I have transferred the file
> > to my PDP-11/40 system and have unhexified it by you supplied program
> > "krthex.mac".  Now the problem is when I execute "krt.sav" program seems to
> > be run but after writing an introductory line, it aborts and does not give
> > kermit prompt.  The message is "?MON-F-Trap to 10 032564" Please help me in
> > this regard.  Asif
> >
> Since the method you used for getting krt.hex onto your system is not
> error-checked, it might require several tries to get there intact.

> The other possibility might be some kind of version mismatch, but I assume
> you read the material at:

>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

> - Frank

30-Dec-98 19:43:57-GMT,765;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 14:43:52 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: C-Kermit 7.0 Beta
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:02:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

>     I've placed a BSDI 4.0 version into the incoming/ directory as
>
>         cku195.bsdi4-4.0
>
Got it (+ the changes), thanks!

- Frank

P.S. I haven't had the guts to go near the PDP-11, but I don't think there's
a prayer of getting C-K 7.0 to build on it.  In 6.0, there was not even a
byte to spare and 7.0 is definitely no smaller.

 9-Mar-99 17:06:36-GMT,2549;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:51:01 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit for DEC RT-11 V4.00
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:49:58 -0500 (EST)"
 <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

> > I have an old PDP11/23-BC running RT11SJ V4.00H that I need to download
> > files from to a 386 PC running MSDOS 5.  The PDP11 has a DSD hard
> > drive/floppy that takes the big 7 inch floppies.  Is there any way to get a
> > version of Kermit for this system on a big floppy?
> >
> You mean 8 inch?  Anyway, not that I know of.  You'll need to "bootstrap"
> Kermit into your PDP-11 by following the Installation instructions link at:

>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

My 8" floppy controller is out for repairs but getting Kermit on the
PDP-11 is quite simple.  Get these files using anonymous ftp from
watsun.cc.columbia.edu in their kermit/b directory (they are all text
files and should be transfered using that mode) -

  krtmin.abs    -  A short abstract describing KRTMIN
  krtmin.doc    -  Documentation (krt.doc is the complete version if need be)
  krtmin.hex    -  A HEX encoded copy of the Kermit executable image
  krtmin.hlp    -  The HELP command text file
  krtmin.ini    -  A sample init file
  krthex.mac    -  The HEX to executable image conversion program

Detailed instructions are at the top of krthex.mac.

Or, if you prefer a floppy disk one person I know that can do it now
is Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>.  Copying the above files to
the pc first then over to the PDP-11 should take less than an hour
though.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
[e-mail]
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

 2-Apr-99 15:36:08-GMT,2893;000000000001
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Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.os.rsts,comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro
Subject: Ersatz-11 V2.1
Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY
From: [e-mail] (John Wilson)
NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 2 Apr 1999 00:08:02 -0500
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Xref: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu vmsnet.pdp-11:11214 alt.sys.pdp11:5141 comp.os.rsts:1233 comp.sys.dec:73419 comp.sys.dec.micro:9446

Ersatz-11 V2.1 Demo is now available for download from:

    http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/install.exe

(this file is a self-installing archive.)  Ersatz-11 is a PDP-11 emulator
which runs on Intel PCs under DOS (or in a DOS box under OS/2, Linux,
or Windows).  It's approximately five times the speed of a PDP-11/93
when running on a high-end P2 or P3, the exact multiple depends on the
application, and even on an older 486 or P5 system it compares well to
real PDP-11 hardware.

This is the Demo version of Ersatz-11, it may be used for unlimited
personal or hobby use but commercial use is limited to a 30-day evaluation
period.  It has a subset of the features of the full and "Lite" versions
of Ersatz-11, which are commercial products described on www.dbit.com.

The main additions since Ersatz-11 V2.0 Demo are:

     *    MSCP disks, TMSCP tapes (so you can boot and install from an
    RX50 OS distribution kit just like on a real PDP-11)

     *    TS11 tapes

     *    additional older disk support:  RC11, RF11, RP11

     *    Q-bus CPU emulation added

     *    auto-configuration features:  DL:, DU:, MS:, MU: controller
    types have appropriate defaults depending on Q- vs. Unibus
    CPU emulation.  "Floating" CSR/vector values are auto-computed
    any time a device is added or deleted.

     *    driver for SB16 MIDI port

     *    built-in NE2000 Ethernet driver (in addition to packet driver
    support)

     *    supports long filenames on systems that have them

     *    bug fixes as usual

V2.1 of the full and "Lite" versions of Ersatz-11 are also being released
today, their new features are listed in the cover letters for the updates
mailed to existing customers.  The manuals for these versions are available
online on www.dbit.com in the "Links" page, along with the manual for the
Demo version (which is also included in the self-installing archive whose
URL is given above).

John Wilson
D Bit  www.dbit.com

30-Jun-99 17:35:48-GMT,2857;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:48:58 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Hang on. Kermit for a dinosaur?
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:03:26 -0400 (EDT)"
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Hi -

> > A file called Kermit.sav exists on the PDP, but I receive an
> > "?KMON-F-Invalid start address for program" message when I try to "RUN
> > DU0:KERMIT.SAV" on the DEC.
> >
> My guess would be that it's an inappropriate PDP-11 Kermit binary, probably
> for a different operating system.

I'm not sure why this occuring but it's quite easy to load a newer
version of Kermit on the PDP-11.

>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

In the Bootstrapping section of this page (about half way down) you'll
see a list of files necessary for an RT-11/TSX+ Kermit named KRTMIN -
this is a special version that is much smaller than the full Kermit but
it does contain everything you'll need to transfer your files.  Under
RT-11 it can only use the console terminal port but with TSX it will
work with any serial port on which TSX can run an interactive session
(including the console terminal).  It's smaller because it is primarily
just a sever - there is no telephone dialer, modem control and so forth
in it.

The file krtmin.hex is a HEX encoded (ASCII text) copy of the executable
image and krthex.mac is the source code for small decoding (back to the
executable) the HEX file.  Transfer instructions are at the top of krthex.
First get these files on to your Unix host and use any text editor or
file viewer to read krthex.mac.  Then connect a serial port on the Unix
machine to a serial port supported by TSX on the PDP-11, login and copy
the files across.  After decoding the HEX file you can use the same
connection to transfer files - just run krtmin, give it the server
command and you're ready to begin.

And, if there's anything else I can do to help please feel free to ask.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
Maintainer of the RT-11/TSX+ Kermit

 9-Jul-99 20:08:58-GMT,2519;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:45:17 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit Software for the PDP-11
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:44:05 -0400 (EDT)"
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Hi -

> We don't have actual PDP-11s here any more -- in fact, it's been nearly
> 20 years...  Nor do we have any 8-inch floppy drives at all, on any platform.

> We can make a TK-50, but only in VMS BACKUP format.  I don't know if RSX can
> read this.

One person that can make copies to 8" RSX floppies is Tim Shoppa
<[e-mail]>.  This may be the easiest way to go...

> If you look at the PDP-11 Kermit web page:

>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

> and go down a bit past the middle, you'll find a section called
> "bootstrapping", that suggests ways of loading the binary onto your PDP-11
> through the serial port.  However, all of our information about this is
> rather RT11-centric.

True but but there other PDP-11 HEX conversion programs available
in the kermit/b directory at Columbia -

  k11hex.b2s - DEC's BASIC PLUS TWO
  k11hex.bas - RSTS style BASIC
  k11hex.ftn - FORTRAN

Thus if the target machine has either FORTRAN or BASIC on it this method
can be used.  You'll also need k11rsx.hex and k11ins.doc (install details)
which are in the same dir - all of these file are available by anonymous
ftp from <watsun.cc.columbia.edu>.  I'd also suggest reading the top of
krthex.mac - it's an RT-11 program but may be helpful regarding the
mechanics of connecting the PDP-11 to another system via a serial port
to transfer the files.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

 9-Jul-99 20:08:58-GMT,2519;000000000005
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Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:45:17 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kermit Software for the PDP-11
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:44:05 -0400 (EDT)"
 <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

> We don't have actual PDP-11s here any more -- in fact, it's been nearly
> 20 years...  Nor do we have any 8-inch floppy drives at all, on any platform.

> We can make a TK-50, but only in VMS BACKUP format.  I don't know if RSX can
> read this.

One person that can make copies to 8" RSX floppies is Tim Shoppa
<[e-mail]>.  This may be the easiest way to go...

> If you look at the PDP-11 Kermit web page:

>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

> and go down a bit past the middle, you'll find a section called
> "bootstrapping", that suggests ways of loading the binary onto your PDP-11
> through the serial port.  However, all of our information about this is
> rather RT11-centric.

True but but there other PDP-11 HEX conversion programs available
in the kermit/b directory at Columbia -

  k11hex.b2s - DEC's BASIC PLUS TWO
  k11hex.bas - RSTS style BASIC
  k11hex.ftn - FORTRAN

Thus if the target machine has either FORTRAN or BASIC on it this method
can be used.  You'll also need k11rsx.hex and k11ins.doc (install details)
which are in the same dir - all of these file are available by anonymous
ftp from <watsun.cc.columbia.edu>.  I'd also suggest reading the top of
krthex.mac - it's an RT-11 program but may be helpful regarding the
mechanics of connecting the PDP-11 to another system via a serial port
to transfer the files.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

 5-Oct-99 21:27:01-GMT,2972;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:06:13 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: Bug with older PDP 11 kermit
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Hi -

> > Thanks but I tried that and it did not handle. The packets are sent but
> > they are treated as erronious until the kermit on the alpha exhausts
> > retries.

This is most likely a 7-bit path problem.  RT-11 as distributed is 7-bits
only on the console port as well as in its serial line device handler.

> Tell C-Kermit to:

>   set attributes off            ; Avoids bug in Kermit-11

This is sometimes necessary as older versions of the PDP-11 Kermit did
not correctly report the operating system type.

>   set parity space              ; Don't assume 8-bit transparency

Setting parity to space will deal with the path problem.  You may have
to give the same command to Kermit on the RT-11 host, although it should
default to this.  I'm not sure if the version you're currently using
does though.

>   set control prefix all        ; Don't assume control-char transparency
>   set flow xon/xoff             ; Use Xon/Xoff flow control
>   set window 1                  ; Don't use sliding windows
>   set receive packet-length 70  ; Use VERY short packets
>   set send packet-length 70     ; in case flow control doesn't work

If you're sending to the console port on the PDP-11 you may need
to set the packet-length as small as 56 bytes.  If you are logging
the file transfer transactions you'll see the PDP-11 returning a bell
(control-G) for each character that overflows its input buffer - you
can either reduce the link speed or the packet-length or both until
the buffer is no longer being overrun.  Going from the PDP-11 is not
a problem here - normal size or long packets may be used in that
direction with no problems.

> If all else fails, maybe we can find somebody who can put an up-to-date
> version of Kermit-11 on some media that you can read.

If this becomes necessary just let me know..

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
[e-mail]
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

19-Nov-99 18:46:57-GMT,3053;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:46:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]

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From: Hartmut Brandt <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Version 2.4 of the p11 PDP-11 emulator
Date: 19 Nov 1999 15:04:33 GMT
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Version 2.4 of p11 - the Begemot PDP-11 emulator - is available on
ftp.fokus.gmd.de:/pub/cats/usr/harti/p11. This release supports the following
platforms:

    FreeBSD 4.0
    Sparc-Solaris 2.[5678]
    Redhat-Linux

It will possibly work on FreeBSD [23].* and other Linux variants.
To build it you need libbegemot (avalaible in the same location), gcc and
gmake. Previous versions also built on BSD/OS and SunOS.

A version of the emulator is run on one of our machines. Try one of the
following (it may not always be available):

    telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10000
    telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10001
    telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10002
    telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10003

to get connected to one of the four available terminals. If telnet
connects, but this terminal is currently in use, you'll get a short
message. You should then try connecting to another port. Once you are
online, log into 2.11BSD with username and password guest/guest1.

Don't forget to logout, before disconnecting with telnet.

Note, that there is an IP connection to the host machine, but not to the
outside world (this is due to IP routing restrictions in out network).

The current implementation emulates a KDJ11A, one or more RLV12, RHV??, RK11
disk controllers, a boot ROM, one or more KL11A controllers, on FreeBSD and
Linux a DEQNA ethernet adapter, a read-only TM11 tape and a standard line
printer interface. A boot ROM (with source code) to boot from RL/RK and RP
discs is included.

On a 450MHz Pentium-III a full 'make world install' of 2.11BSD takes around 6
hours, which is several times faster than a real PDP. Floating point
performance is even higher.

The emulator hast tested with 2.11BSD, RSX and RSX-PLUS, RT V4, V[4567]-Unix
and XXDP.

Enjoy,
    Harti B. Brandt

--
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
              [e-mail], [e-mail]

31-Mar-2000 22:47:33-GMT,3419;000000000015
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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:47:46 -0500
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC

[Re my KSERVE for RT-11]
>Just send it in.  We'll find a place to put it.

You'd really be willing to accept yet another divergent PDP-11 Kermit?
Well if so I'll glady ship it to you (it's an easy one, just one source
file, so far anyway).  Right now I'm swamped because I'm shipping a new
rev of my company's main product tomorrow, and of course it's not quite
finished, but next week I'll have some time to clean up KSERVE and make
it presentable -- either find the bug or convince myself it was actually
operator error and/or flakey hardware.  I was doing the testing on an 11/34
and it turned into quite the recursive Kermit-fest because it was actually
faster to build the binary on an emulator and download it into the 11/34
at 9600 baud, than to build it on the 11/34 itself.  So I did have some
confusion with using intermediate buggy versions to download the later
versions...  Now I've got matching SCSI drives on the PDP-11 and PC so I
can slip code in w/o involving Kermit at all, so I won't have trouble with
accidentally running the wrong version to do the download.

>John Santos sent in a "test" version of Kermit-11 updated for RSTS/E about
>three years ago, which at least fixes the well-known bugs in 3.60 or whatever
>Brian Nelson's last consolidated release was.
>
>The one that has never been touched since 1989 or thereabouts, and therefore
>still has the fatal attributes-packet bug is the RSX version.
>
>I suspect if someone simply diff'd the updated RSTS version with the
>original one, and applied the system-independent parts of the diff to the
>RSX version, that would do the trick.
>
>Better still would be to reconcile Billy Youdelman's KRT version with RSTS
>and RSX.  Obviously this kind of work can only be done by somebody who has
>access to these platforms -- and preferably all of them.

You dropped me a line about this back when I announced my demo.dbit.com RSX
demo system, I'd *really* like to volunteer to merge all the K11 versions
into one (and spruce it up some, too), my problem has been not having a big
block of time to dedicate to it.  I figure offering to help and then maybe
dropping the ball is a lot worse than not helping at all.  But if it's been
11 years since a real release, my short-term stop & go flakiness might be
small potatoes in comparison!

Anyway I would like to volunteer to do the work, if you don't mind a little
scheduling uncertainty, and someone isn't already working on the merge.
I thought I saw a note recently from John Santos saying he was losing access
to his last RSTS system, so I hope that the 3-year-old stuff already includes
whatever he's done?

John Wilson
D Bit

 1-Apr-2000 19:33:20-GMT,2964;000000000001
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    Sat, 1 Apr 2000 14:32:56 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 14:32:56 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>, Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:47:46 -0500
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> [Re my KSERVE for RT-11]
> >Just send it in.  We'll find a place to put it.
>
> You'd really be willing to accept yet another divergent PDP-11 Kermit?
>
Of course!

> >Better still would be to reconcile Billy Youdelman's KRT version with RSTS
> >and RSX.  Obviously this kind of work can only be done by somebody who has
> >access to these platforms -- and preferably all of them.
>
> You dropped me a line about this back when I announced my demo.dbit.com RSX
> demo system, I'd *really* like to volunteer to merge all the K11 versions
> into one (and spruce it up some, too), my problem has been not having a big
> block of time to dedicate to it.
>
A well-known obstacle...

> I figure offering to help and then maybe
> dropping the ball is a lot worse than not helping at all.  But if it's been
> 11 years since a real release, my short-term stop & go flakiness might be
> small potatoes in comparison!
>
Scary how fast 11 years go by.

> Anyway I would like to volunteer to do the work, if you don't mind a little
> scheduling uncertainty, and someone isn't already working on the merge.  I
> thought I saw a note recently from John Santos saying he was losing access
> to his last RSTS system, so I hope that the 3-year-old stuff already
> includes whatever he's done?
>
Right -- it looks like his RSTS version is based on Billy Y's RT version
after all, so the main thing is to finish it up, then get the RSX (and IAS?)
versions in line, and then replace the entire K11*.* distribution with the
new consolidated on, hopefully including new binaries for all platforms,
or at least some of them.

All that I have here is:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/k11*.*       <-- Kermit-11 3.60
  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/krt*.*       <-- Billy Y's KRT 3.63
  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/test/pdp11/.*  <-- John S's RSTS version
  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html       <-- PDP-11 Kermit web page

Obviously you'll want to touch base with John S, Billy Y, Johnny Billquist,
and maybe Tim Shoppa and Terry Kennedy.  I might as well just cc them on this
reply, hope you don't mind.

- Frank

 1-Apr-2000 19:40:25-GMT,4040;000000000001
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 id <[e-mail]> for [e-mail]; Sat,
 1 Apr 2000 12:40:18 MST
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:34:05 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:32:56 -0500 (EST)"
 <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Cc: John Wilson <[e-mail]>, Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>,
        John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
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Hi all -

Yes I too would love to see the PDP-11 Kermit get more RSTS and RSX
attention, to say the very least.  I have yet another RT-11 version
in the works but I've been just buried with work for some time now.
I expect that to lighten up soon, probably towards the end of April,
at which time I'd be able to be a lot more helpful with all this.

I don't have RSTS or RSX available (though others receiving this do)
but I'd be happy to help in any way I can.

Regards,

Billy Y..

PS to John Wilson - You'll be hearing from me soon regarding E11,
I'm also about to have time to resume pursuing that again too...

> > [Re my KSERVE for RT-11]
> > >Just send it in.  We'll find a place to put it.
> >
> > You'd really be willing to accept yet another divergent PDP-11 Kermit?
> >
> Of course!

> > >Better still would be to reconcile Billy Youdelman's KRT version with RSTS
> > >and RSX.  Obviously this kind of work can only be done by somebody who has
> > >access to these platforms -- and preferably all of them.
> >
> > You dropped me a line about this back when I announced my demo.dbit.com RSX
> > demo system, I'd *really* like to volunteer to merge all the K11 versions
> > into one (and spruce it up some, too), my problem has been not having a big
> > block of time to dedicate to it.
> >
> A well-known obstacle...

> > I figure offering to help and then maybe
> > dropping the ball is a lot worse than not helping at all.  But if it's been
> > 11 years since a real release, my short-term stop & go flakiness might be
> > small potatoes in comparison!
> >
> Scary how fast 11 years go by.

> > Anyway I would like to volunteer to do the work, if you don't mind a little
> > scheduling uncertainty, and someone isn't already working on the merge.  I
> > thought I saw a note recently from John Santos saying he was losing access
> > to his last RSTS system, so I hope that the 3-year-old stuff already
> > includes whatever he's done?
> >
> Right -- it looks like his RSTS version is based on Billy Y's RT version
> after all, so the main thing is to finish it up, then get the RSX (and IAS?)
> versions in line, and then replace the entire K11*.* distribution with the
> new consolidated on, hopefully including new binaries for all platforms,
> or at least some of them.

> All that I have here is:

>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/k11*.*       <-- Kermit-11 3.60
>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/krt*.*       <-- Billy Y's KRT 3.63
>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/test/pdp11/.*  <-- John S's RSTS version
>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html       <-- PDP-11 Kermit web page

> Obviously you'll want to touch base with John S, Billy Y, Johnny Billquist,
> and maybe Tim Shoppa and Terry Kennedy.  I might as well just cc them on this
> reply, hope you don't mind.

> - Frank

 2-Apr-2000 14:05:45-GMT,2720;000000000001
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From: Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
cc: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC
In-Reply-To: <8c5hcv$aeu$[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On 1 Apr 2000, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> In article <[e-mail]>,
> Tim Shoppa  <[e-mail]> wrote:
> : I think that if any Kermit development should be done, it should be done
> : for RSX-11 and RSTS/E.  Billy Yodelman's KRT is already pretty damn good
> : for use under RT-11 (though it doesn't do sliding windows).
> :
> : How come Johnny Billquist's "K11ATR.MAC" patches for Kermit-11 never found
> : their way back to the Columbia distribution...
> :
> I don't know.  Was it ever sent in?  If so, maybe it was during a hectic
> period and got buried.  If not, send it in!

I have the sources here, along with binaries for M+ atleast. Compiled on
V4.5, but I think it should work on any V4 system. Not sure about M+ V3
though. Don't have a binaries for 11M, but I might be able to generate
those.

> It would be ideal to get the various Kermit-11 offshoots consolidated again,
> and get a new set of binaries to go with them.

Yes! Definitely. I would just like to get in touch with the other people
working on K11, and get a discussion going. I could handle the RSX side...

> : ... as long as we've got Frank's attention?  (Does Frank really read all
> : the newsgroups that might ever mention Kermit, or has he borrowed Kibo's
> : Usenet scanning techniques, looking for "kermit"?)
> :
> I have an affection for DEC stuff.  I ran DEC shops for years and years,
> starting with DOS-11 on an 11/20 and finishing up with a large network of
> DEC-20s, with a lot in between.

:-)

    Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: [e-mail]           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

 2-Apr-2000 16:51:47-GMT,2130;000000000001
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Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:52:00 -0400
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC
Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
        [e-mail], [e-mail]

>Right -- it looks like his RSTS version is based on Billy Y's RT version
>after all, so the main thing is to finish it up, then get the RSX (and IAS?)
>versions in line, and then replace the entire K11*.* distribution with the
>new consolidated on, hopefully including new binaries for all platforms,
>or at least some of them.
[...]
>Obviously you'll want to touch base with John S, Billy Y, Johnny Billquist,
>and maybe Tim Shoppa and Terry Kennedy.  I might as well just cc them on this
>reply, hope you don't mind.

OK, well as long as I wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes, I'd *love*
to take on the task of merging all the K11 derivatives back together.

I've been writing PDP-11 Kermits of my own since '84 so debugging with the
protocol is familiar, I have several versions of RT-11, RSX, and RSTS to test
on (as well as P/OS, but unfortunately I never got a full IAS distribution,
it was discontinued before I got the chance and DEC has resisted my attempts
to give them money).  And I just got the latest release of D Bit's main
product done yesterday so a whole lot of pressure is off and I'll have time
for "fun" projects now.  So my point is, I'm all set and ready to go, unless
someone else has dibs.

John Wilson
D Bit

 2-Apr-2000 23:10:53-GMT,3444;000000000001
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Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:10:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]

Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.os.rsts,comp.sys.dec
Subject: Ersatz-11 V2.2 (PDP-11 emulator)
Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY
From: [e-mail] (John Wilson)
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Xref: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu vmsnet.pdp-11:12495 alt.sys.pdp11:6588 comp.os.rsts:1316 comp.sys.dec:82138

A new version of Ersatz-11 is now available.  V2.2 of the freeware Demo
version may be downloaded from www.dbit.com as usual, and commercial users
with current update subscriptions (or ones that expired only recently) will
be mailed update disks tomorrow.

Probably the most interesting addition for hobby users is the new VT11
vector graphic display processor emulation.  Yes, it runs the Lunar Lander
game.  It also works nicely with the GT ON command in older versions of
RT-11, as well as EDIT.SAV's scroller mode.  A copy of Jack Burness's Lunar
Lander game which is all set up to run under the emulator is available at:

    http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/lunar/

Other changes which are visible even in the Demo version include the
SET CPU FIS and SET CPU EAE options, the Interlan NI1010A/NI2010A Ethernet
emulation, the built-in mini-assembler, and the overhauled manual.

The full commercial V2.2 release includes the above changes, plus it
adds a new DR11C/DRV11 emulation using TLC's DCI-1300 PCI board, which
is pin-compatible with the DR11C/DRV11.  Also there's a new DH11/DM11BB
emulation, the RocketPort driver can handle ISA cards (used to be PCI only),
the SCSI disk driver can partition disks on any boundary, multiple serial
ports can be attached to the same emulated PDP-11 port (with duplicate
output and merged input), and the Q/Unibus adapter drivers allow subsetting
of the I/O page so you can have multiple adapters, to get a dual Q/Unibus
system, or two identical busses for distributing heavy DMA loads.  The new
DMA-friendly BCI-2004 bus adapter is supported in addition to the older
BCI-2003/2103 and UPG-3600 boards.  Also, the DEQNA emulation now supports
booting over the network.

Acrobat files containing the manuals for all three versions (Demo, Lite, full)
of E11 are available on the "Links" page on www.dbit.com.  The Demo version's
manual .PDF file is also part of the self-extracting INSTALL.EXE archive, plus
it's available as a PostScript file at:

    ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/e11/e11demo.ps

The E11/Linux port is nearing completion and will be released this summer,
however it will probably only be available in a commercial version.

John Wilson
D Bit
www.dbit.com

 2-Apr-2000 23:13:39-GMT,2422;000000000001
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To: [e-mail]

Path: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!panix!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail
From: Kelvin Smith <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC
Date: 2 Apr 2000 05:17:38 GMT
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>Unfortunately, my last PDP-11 died several years ago (though I still have
>its CPU and memory and a good set of TK50 backup tapes in my basement),
>so I have never had the opportunity to upgrade it from a "test" version.
>Maybe someday...

John, if you want, I could give you a dialup account on my system, although
I'm still trying to work out interaction between modems and Ersatz-11.
(Dialing in from certain PC programs gives flaky results, though all here
will probably not be surprised to hear that MS-DOS Kermit runs perfectly!)
It's fun, though, running RSTS/E at 4 times the speed of an 11/84.  (I
also like saving $100 a month on power.)  And that's with just a Pentium
at 333 MHz (and SCSI disks-I've clocked heavy duty sorts at 10 times as
fast as on the 11/84 with a CMD SCSI controller).

I'm trying to remember exactly where things were left with your version
of Kermit.  I don't think I ever installed it, and don't remember why.
I probably need to dig through my old e-mails.

I've got plenty of storage space on my system, but no way to read a TK50.

Kelvin Smith

 2-Apr-2000 23:14:01-GMT,3515;000000000001
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC
Date: 2 Apr 2000 20:54:31 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John Wilson) writes:
|>
|> - Updated version of my KSERVE.SAV RT-11 Kermit server, which supports both
|>   long packets and sliding windows, and transfers substantially faster than
|>   classic stop 'n wait Kermit -- I wrote all the code ages ago but at the
|>   time I thought I saw some buggy behavior which I haven't been able to
|>   duplicate, and I haven't had time to get waist-deep in it again to sort
|>   that out.

This is great.  KSERVE.SAV is the first program I move to any new system
I work with.

|>
|> - DOS clone of Megan Gentry's RTEFTP RT-11 Ethernet file transfer program.
|>   RTEFTP uses a simple little proprietary protocol to zip stuff between RT
|>   machines on the same Ethernet.  It's nowhere near as fancy as TCP/IP or
|>   DECnet but that's what's cool about it, all you have to do is run the
|>   program and type "SET NAME FOO" (or not even, if the machine is only going
|>   to be a client), and then you can type COPY and DIR commands to shoot files
|>   back and forth *way* faster than Kermit.  My version works but it's missing
|>   a few features (logging, I forget what else) and needs to be synced up with
|>   some minor protocol changes that Megan has in the works.
|>
|>   Anyway being able to transfer an RL01 image in less than a minute sure
|>   beats 4 hours of Kermit (at 9600 baud with short packets and no sliding
|>   windows).
|>
|> So anyway, if anyone has a need for either of the above to be finished in
|> the foreseeable future, drop me a line and I'll get on it during the next
|> lull.  My impression is that no one really cares much about this kind of
|> thing, that's why I haven't moved these projects to the head of the line,
|> but I'd love to be wrong.

If your tabulating votes, here's a yea!!

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]         |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

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John Wilson wrote:
>
> >Right -- it looks like his RSTS version is based on Billy Y's RT version
> >after all, so the main thing is to finish it up, then get the RSX (and IAS?)
> >versions in line, and then replace the entire K11*.* distribution with the
> >new consolidated on, hopefully including new binaries for all platforms,
> >or at least some of them.
> [...]
> >Obviously you'll want to touch base with John S, Billy Y, Johnny Billquist,
> >and maybe Tim Shoppa and Terry Kennedy.  I might as well just cc them on this
> >reply, hope you don't mind.
>
> OK, well as long as I wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes, I'd *love*
> to take on the task of merging all the K11 derivatives back together.

Please do. I'll help anyway I can, but I've only looked some at K11
in order to fix the most obvious problems. I've written one kermit
for PDP-8s, quite a few years ago, and have not played with the more
advanced features of the protocol. So I feel that I'm not an expert
here, but perhaps I can contribute som RSX knowledge, along with doing
tests...

    Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist             |  [e-mail]
Net Insight AB               |  phone:  [phone]
VΣstberga AllΘ 9             |  fax:    [phone]
Box 42093                    |
SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden  |  http://www.netinsight.net

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Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 15:16:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 02 Apr 2000 12:52:00 -0400"
 <[e-mail]>
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> I've been writing PDP-11 Kermits of my own since '84 so debugging with the
> protocol is familiar, I have several versions of RT-11, RSX, and RSTS to test
> on (as well as P/OS, but unfortunately I never got a full IAS distribution,
> it was discontinued before I got the chance and DEC has resisted my attempts
> to give them money).

  You might try talking to Steve Schultz, [e-mail], about an IAS kit.
At his day job, they were one of the largest IAS users.

    Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com
        [e-mail]             Jersey City, NJ USA
        [phone] (voice)   [phone] (FAX)

 2-Apr-2000 16:51:47-GMT,2130;000000000001
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Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:52:00 -0400
From: John Wilson <[e-mail]>
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Re: pdp11 to PC
Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
        [e-mail], [e-mail]

>Right -- it looks like his RSTS version is based on Billy Y's RT version
>after all, so the main thing is to finish it up, then get the RSX (and IAS?)
>versions in line, and then replace the entire K11*.* distribution with the
>new consolidated on, hopefully including new binaries for all platforms,
>or at least some of them.
[...]
>Obviously you'll want to touch base with John S, Billy Y, Johnny Billquist,
>and maybe Tim Shoppa and Terry Kennedy.  I might as well just cc them on this
>reply, hope you don't mind.

OK, well as long as I wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes, I'd *love*
to take on the task of merging all the K11 derivatives back together.

I've been writing PDP-11 Kermits of my own since '84 so debugging with the
protocol is familiar, I have several versions of RT-11, RSX, and RSTS to test
on (as well as P/OS, but unfortunately I never got a full IAS distribution,
it was discontinued before I got the chance and DEC has resisted my attempts
to give them money).  And I just got the latest release of D Bit's main
product done yesterday so a whole lot of pressure is off and I'll have time
for "fun" projects now.  So my point is, I'm all set and ready to go, unless
someone else has dibs.

John Wilson
D Bit

15-Sep-2000 14:33:23-GMT,1968;000000000001
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Sender: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:33:14 EDT
From: Kermit Software Support <[e-mail]>
To: "David D Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Send to K11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:28:46 -0700
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
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> Maybe I'm asking too much of K11.  I connect from my Intel WNT via TCP/IP
> using K95 to PDP-11.  That works fine of course and appears on a ZT (the
> TCP/IP device).
>
ZT == pseudoterminal?

> Next test is to send a file either way.  Is K11 smart enough to connect
> through a ZT device instead of TT (modem) device?
>
If a ZT is a pseudoterminal, this should be transparent to the application.
Whether it works depends on how compatible the ZT driver is to the TT driver.

Anyway you're talking with a guy whose last contact with PDP-11s was
circa 1980, which is long before Kermit-11 came out, so I've never personally
installed, debugged, or even used K11.

And as you probably have learned from the material on the website, the RSX
version lags seriously behind the RT and RSTS ones, due to the lack of an
RSX platform where anybody can bring it up to date.  Are you saying you have
a Telnetable, FTPable RSX system?  If so, some of the PDP-11 Kermit people
(not Brian, but his successors) might be very interested to get at it the
rectify the situation.  It would be nice, after all these years, to have a
coherent Kermit-11 again, instead of 3 separate ones.

- Frank

15-Sep-2000 20:34:04-GMT,1759;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 16:33:56 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "David D Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Send to K11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:25:00 -0700
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I fiddled around for an hour or so and was only able to transfer from K11
> to K95 (not the other way).  But the truth is that it's easier to use FTP
> (either direction).  FTP from the W95 Command Screen is particularly
> convenient.
>
It will become even more convenient in the next release.

It should be possible to make Kermit work, but I truly have not heard of
anybody using the RSX version in many years.  The RT and RSTS versions work
well.

> Yes, I have a PDP-11 (an Osprey really) behind a firewall, on TCP/IP.  I
> looked in comp.protocols.kermit.misc to find interested parties and only
> found one discussion in 20 years (in February you suggested SET ATTR OFF).
> I guess that isn't a good source.  Where do you suggest I find a PDP/RSX
> community?
>
There have been a lot of private discussions.  Here's the list:

  Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>
  John Santos <[e-mail]>
  Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>
  Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>
  Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>

If you want to start up a conversation, please include me.

Thanks!

- Frank

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
Date: 21 Nov 2000 17:09:32 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>,
 [e-mail] (Warren Toomey) writes:
|> In article <8vbh7n$4vf$[e-mail]>,
|>     [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
|>
|> > And along the same lines, considering that Ultrix-11 runs on all
|> > of the different PDP's I am likely to ever try, is there any reason
|> > why I should opt for one of the BSD's in lieu of Ultrix??
|>
|> TCP/IP?

What!!! Do you mean to say that Ultrix-11 didn't have TCPIP??
I assumed the function set was pretty much the same between
Ultrix-11 and Ultrix-32.  A lack of even basic IP would make
me stop even trying to get it working.  Although getting BSD
to work on some of my older (smaller) hardware may be equally
impossible.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

21-Nov-2000 18:07:05-GMT,1130;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:07:03 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:23:35 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

Hi Bill.  In case you actually do get Ultrix-11 running (and no, I don't
know whether it includes TCP/IP) it would be quite a coup -- in the past
several years I haven't succeeded in locating anybody else who has it,
and I would be very interested in getting a version of Kermit built on
it.  Probably the only one that's small enough any more is G-Kermit:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/gkermit.html

(And in case it doesn't have TCP/IP, this would give you a way to get
files in and out.)

- Frank

21-Nov-2000 18:45:52-GMT,1900;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:45:51 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:28:13 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> Believe it or not, I'm one of your biggest fans.  I put kermit on
> everything I run.  I use it on old PC's for consoles on my PDP and Vax
> boxes.  I have had it on Unix, Xenix, Minix, Primix, Primos, RT-11, RSTS,
> UCSD-Pascal,... The list seems endless.  I have even had the fun of making
> custom versions for weird situations at work.  I love it.
>
For me it's like a hobby that turned into job.  Talk about lucking out!
And as you can see, I'm kind of a fanatic at trying to get builds of Kermit
for every known platform, past and present.  I've been keeping an eye out
for Ultrix-11 for years.

> If I get Ultrix-11 to work I will be glad to build any versions you
> might want.  probably will take nothing but a quick (well, actually slow)
> make.
>
Yes, some of the builds I do take upwards of 4 hours...  I have a particular
fondness for PDP-11's; they were *almost* my first computer, back in the
days of DOS-11, Teletype consoles, and card readers.  I can still hear those
RK05's squeaking away -- the first mouse!  And I guess they still use card
readers in Florida...

If it turns out you have to give up on Ultrix-11, the next best bet would be
2.11 BSD, which is still actively maintained by Steven Schultz,
[e-mail].

- Frank



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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:48:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
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On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> For me it's like a hobby that turned into job.  Talk about lucking out!
> And as you can see, I'm kind of a fanatic at trying to get builds of Kermit
> for every known platform, past and present.  I've been keeping an eye out
> for Ultrix-11 for years.

Well, the good news is I have it running!!!  I will probably build another
system at home tonight on a little better hardware.  RL02's don't leave
much room for software development.  So, what sources should I grab to build
Kermit for you?? Maybe I can look into building both split I&D and none
binaries if the compiler does that.

> Yes, some of the builds I do take upwards of 4 hours...  I have a particular
> fondness for PDP-11's; they were *almost* my first computer, back in the
> days of DOS-11, Teletype consoles, and card readers.  I can still hear those
> RK05's squeaking away -- the first mouse!  And I guess they still use card
> readers in Florida...

Not my first, but one of my favorites.  It's just getting harder and harder
to keep them running.  I think I lost an 11\23+ CPU last night.  :-(  And
my favorite, my 11/24 is sitting here with a dead power supply.

>
> If it turns out you have to give up on Ultrix-11, the next best bet would be
> 2.11 BSD, which is still actively maintained by Steven Schultz,
> [e-mail].

I have the whole CSRG CD set as well as the PUPS Archive. Sadly, BSD has
limited hardware support and most later versions require split I&D which
eliminates my 11/23 and 11/24.  Ultrix, on the other hand, seems to have
been maintained with support for all the common DEC hardware (even RL
disks!!!)  Now, if I can only find a documentation set. ;-)

Let me know which sources you think I should use for an Ultrix-11 Kermit.
I'm willing to try anything, but I doubt there's much chance of C-Kermit
fitting in the PDP's memory.

All the best.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
Date: 21 Nov 2000 22:03:34 GMT
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Success!!!

I now have Ultrix-11 running on a PDP-11/23 with 1M of memory and an
RL02 system disk.  Of course, having no documentation means that the
fun is just about to begin.  Now I need to figure out how to custom
config the system for more realistic hardware, including networking!!
Yes, a quick perusal of things like include files shows that there
should be TCPIP support.

Other projects will be to get it running on an 11/73 with split I&D
and the use of bigger disks.

Licensing details will have to be worked out, but this now means if
others are interested I know how (and have the scripts) to make 9-track
Ultrix-11 boot/install tapes.  I'm not sure if things like TK50 are
possible, but I will look into it.

It's nice to have things work out once in a while.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
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From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11
Subject: Ultrix-11 Status Report
Date: 14 Dec 2000 14:22:03 GMT
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Success!!

Well, sort of....

I now have Ultrix-11 with TCPIP support running on an 11/23+ with 4M of
memory.  It is still not particularly functional, but at least it no
longer panics going into multi-user mode.

Problems:  There seems to be insufficient buffer space allocated for
           TCPIP use.  This causes FTP to not be able to transfer
           anything.

           It appears that the .o files needed to build a split I&D
           kernel ar missing or maybe it's just the makefile that's
           messed up.  haven't had time to look into it in too much
           depth as I just got it running at all last night.

           And the big one!!!  This one especially for Warren if he's
           listening as it affects the archive.  It looks like the
           Ultrix-11 3.1 is actually Ultrix-11 3.0.  Either that or
           DEC forgot to change all the version info in the sources. :-)

                    wizard# uname -a
                    ULTRIX-11 wizard 3 0 PDP-11/23
                    wizard#

I plan to continue working on getting Ultrix-11 running in a usable
fashion.  I also plan to look into getting BSD-2.9 running on these
boxes as well.  I looked at 2.10 but while it mentions in one section
running on cpus like the 11/23 and 11/24 it later says it requires
split I&D and a non-split I&D version is not likely to be done.

I am still looking for a set of Ultrix-11 manuals and will gladly pay
shipping if soemone has a set hidden away somewhere that they are willing
to part with.  It would definitely make building kernels a lot easier.

This running system is at home.  I am going to try and get a another
small system up here in the lab.  If I can, I will put it on the net
with a guest account so people can take a look at it if they want.
I'll post info here if that happens before I quit for the rest of
the year, which happens tonight!!

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:13:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> Hi Bill.  In case you actually do get Ultrix-11 running (and no, I don't
> know whether it includes TCP/IP) it would be quite a coup -- in the past
> several years I haven't succeeded in locating anybody else who has it,

Well, as you may have seen, I have succeeded in getting it running on
an 11/23+.  And it does have TCPIP (and supposedly DECNET but I haven't
figured that part out yet) support.

I am still hoping to get it running on a Split I&D machine.

> and I would be very interested in getting a version of Kermit built on
> it.  Probably the only one that's small enough any more is G-Kermit:
>
>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/gkermit.html

Done.  Only one small problem that wasn't covered in your instructions.

As regards:
 . Only relatively short identifiers.

In gkproto.w (and subsequently in gkproto.c) your have a function "streamon"
and an int variable "streamok"  these are not unique in the first 7 characters.
We're talking an old compiler here....

I fixed this with the flag -Dstreamon=strmon.  Not clean, but it compiled.
Other than that I used -DULONG-long and -DSMALL as suggested in the docs.

There is very limited buffer space, bu tthat may be only in the non-split
I&D version.  It means you have to keep packet sizes down to something
reasonable and turn off Streaming.  But other than that, it seems to work
OK.  I have used it to move a rather large tar file (well, large for this
machine anyway) and an entire RL02 disk image.  Do you want me to send
you a binary??  Or would you feel more comfortable building a binary
yourself??  It's a slow machine, but I can give you access to it if you
want.

>
> (And in case it doesn't have TCP/IP, this would give you a way to get
> files in and out.)

Sometimes, kermit is a good solution even when you have TCPIP because of
the difference in overhead!!

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:20:26 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:13:01 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> > and I would be very interested in getting a version of Kermit built on
> > it.  Probably the only one that's small enough any more is G-Kermit:
> >
> >   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/gkermit.html
>
> Done.  Only one small problem that wasn't covered in your instructions.
>
> As regards:
>  . Only relatively short identifiers.
>
OK, I'll add this to the instructions.

> There is very limited buffer space, bu tthat may be only in the non-split
> I&D version.  It means you have to keep packet sizes down to something
> reasonable and turn off Streaming.  But other than that, it seems to work
> OK.  I have used it to move a rather large tar file (well, large for this
> machine anyway) and an entire RL02 disk image.
>
Not a bad test!

> Do you want me to send you a binary??
>
Yes please.  Just uuencode it and mail it would be easiest.

> Or would you feel more comfortable building a binary
> yourself??  It's a slow machine, but I can give you access to it if you
> want.
>
I'd love to have an account for trying new things on old platforms (my
hobby, er, job).

Thanks!

- Frank

20-Dec-2000 20:42:28-GMT,1414;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:42:26 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:13:01 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> I fixed this with the flag -Dstreamon=strmon.  Not clean, but it compiled.
> Other than that I used -DULONG-long and -DSMALL as suggested in the docs.
>
And you used the bsd target?  So your make command was:

  make bsd "KFLAGS=-Dstreamon=strmon -DULONG=long -DSMALL"

> There is very limited buffer space, bu tthat may be only in the non-split
> I&D version.  It means you have to keep packet sizes down to something
> reasonable...
>
Like what size?  Btw, what is the PDP-11 model again?  11/34?  And what kind
of serial interface was used (DH11, DZ11, ...)?

Which kind of flow control do you use?

I updated the web page:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/gkermit.html

with what I know so far.  Any additional tidbits would be welcome.

Thanks again!

- Frank

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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 18:03:35 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ultrix-11
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:55:13 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

Got it, thanks!  It's enshrined at:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/gkermit.html

Also pls look at Note 9 in Section 12 of that page, to see if I summarized
your comments right.

Thanks again!

- Frank

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Ultrix-11 Latest News
Date: 17 Jan 2001 19:52:57 GMT
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Ok, here it is.  An 11/23+ running Ultrix-11 3.1, available on the
Net.

telnet to 134.198.175.226
login as guest
password is ultrix11

Don't expect much.  As I said, it's only an 11/23+. It has 3M of memory
and an RA81 disk.  Things like ftp "run", but they don't "work".  Look
to be lack of buffer space, but without any documentation I have not
found out how to tune it any more than it is now.  Of course, if I ever
get an 11/73 running I could build a split I&D system which should be
considerably better.  Please don't try to crash it.  It is likely to
do that all by itself anyway and you would just keep others from trying
it out.  No, it's not running any critical applications.  If you want
to move some code over to try the compiler or something, try "gkermit".
But remember, it won;t stream and it needs real small packets.

I await any comments and  am still hoping someone will find a box of
Ultrix-11 docs sitting in a closet somewhere that I will gladly pay
to ship here.

All the best.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

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To: [e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Ultrix-11 Latest News
Date: 17 Jan 2001 19:52:57 GMT
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Ok, here it is.  An 11/23+ running Ultrix-11 3.1, available on the
Net.

telnet to 134.198.175.226
login as guest
password is ultrix11

Don't expect much.  As I said, it's only an 11/23+. It has 3M of memory
and an RA81 disk.  Things like ftp "run", but they don't "work".  Look
to be lack of buffer space, but without any documentation I have not
found out how to tune it any more than it is now.  Of course, if I ever
get an 11/73 running I could build a split I&D system which should be
considerably better.  Please don't try to crash it.  It is likely to
do that all by itself anyway and you would just keep others from trying
it out.  No, it's not running any critical applications.  If you want
to move some code over to try the compiler or something, try "gkermit".
But remember, it won;t stream and it needs real small packets.

I await any comments and  am still hoping someone will find a box of
Ultrix-11 docs sitting in a closet somewhere that I will gladly pay
to ship here.

All the best.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

11-Feb-2001 20:08:54-GMT,1644;000000000001
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Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:08:46 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>
Cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>, Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RSX-11M Hobby License, Was: One uping the VAX, again!!
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:05:44 +0100 (CET)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Frank da Cruz wrote:
>
> > > Let me know how to go along here, Frank, and I'll try to find the time.
> > >
> > Ideally, whoever takes on this project would coordinate with Billy
> > Youdelman (who did the RT-11 updates) and John Santos (who did the RSTS
> > ones).  The main thing is just to merge their changes back into the
> > common source, and incorporate the functional improvements into the
> > RSX and IAS versions.
>
> Fine with me. Could Billy or John tell me what files have changed from the
> K11 version...
>
I hope so.

> ... or should I grab it all, and try to diff them?
>
If you don't hear from them, I suppose that's the only choice.

> Are krt* just changes and additions to k11*, or have the "old" RSX stuff
> been removed from krt*?
>
I don't know.

- Frank

11-Feb-2001 20:19:10-GMT,2452;000000000001
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Cc: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>, Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>,
        John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>, Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

> Fine with me. Could Billy or John tell me what files have changed from the
> K11 version

Pretty much everything that the RT-11 version uses has changed, all files
are listed in krt.doc and will have 'KRT' in their first three letters as
opposed to 'K11' while the remainders of the filenames pretty much remain
the same.

Then John Santos has a RSTS version of all this with some further updates
and which includes the various RSTS-specific modules.

So, it would be best to start with his copy of that.

I added some comments to the RT-11 version for what was included in the
last release of the os itself, but all this can wait until after you get
something running to be added back in to a multi-os version..

> Are krt* just changes and additions to k11*, or have the "old" RSX stuff
> been removed from krt*?

There are some additional RSX modules in K11 that weren't carried over
to the RT-11 (KRT) version - these are things like the terminal emulator,
RMS and so forth.  It hopefully won't be too hard to sort out but I'll
be happy to help answer any quesions that arise, so feel free to ask
for whatever additional help you need with all this.

Billy Y..

11-Feb-2001 20:28:44-GMT,2012;000000000001
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I wrote -

| Then John Santos has a RSTS version of all this with some further updates
| and which includes the various RSTS-specific modules.
|
| So, it would be best to start with his copy of that.

But then received this -

#     ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
#  <[e-mail]>
#
#     ----- Transcript of session follows -----
#  procmail: Zero permissions on mailbox "/var/mail/ultranet/j/a/jasantos"
#  procmail: Error while writing to "/var/mail/ultranet/j/a/jasantos"
#  550 <[e-mail]>... Can't create output: Error 0

Hopefully John won't be too hard to find.  I have an older copy
of what he was working on but you've caught me with the PDP-11s
down for maintenance today so I can't get at it just now...

Billy Y..

20-Feb-2001 19:22:51-GMT,2855;000000000001
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:06:12 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: File transfert problem between PDP-11 and HP
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 <[e-mail]>
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To: Kermit Software Support <[e-mail]>
Cc: "Costeux, Jean-Pierre" <[e-mail]>,
        [e-mail], Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>,
        Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>
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Hi -

> One obvious problem might be that T3.56 is not the latest version of PDP-11
> Kermit.  The current version for RT11 and TSX+ is 3.62:

>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

> Maybe this will make a difference.

Yes it will help here.

> > What the customer does:
> > -    he boots RT11-SJ then TSX-Plus V6.40 on his PDP-11
> > -    on the HP745 system he runs C-Kermit with the
> > following parameters:
> > -    Line: /dev/tty0p0
> > -    Speed: 9600 bauds
> > -    Mode: local
> > -    Duplex: full
> > -    Flow: XON/XOFF
> >
> > -    from the PDP-11 run as server they connect locally on the HP system
> > then they start to copy files.
> >
> > After some files copied they get  the error I mentioned above.

If after installing up-to-date versions of Kermit on both systems
in use here if the problem occurs again there are two things that
may be done to help - either use TSX's CL handler (communications
line driver, TSX may have to be rebuilt to include it if it is not
now present) to drive the port which Kermit is using, or reduce the
packet size when transmitting data to the PDP-11.

If the transfers are being done via the PDP-11 console port simply
reducing the packet length such that buffer overruns don't occur on
incoming files is the only practical solution.  Sometimes packets as
small as 56 bytes are necessary to prevent buffer overruns.  The CL
handler is prefered if possible as it is far more efficient.

In any case if I can be of any further help please feel free to
ask.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
[e-mail]
Maintainer of the RT-11/TSX Kermit

 1-Mar-2001 22:14:08-GMT,3223;000000000001
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From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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To: [e-mail]

Path: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gblx.net!europa.netcrusader.net!193.162.153.122!news.tele.dk!151.189.0.75!newsfeed.germany.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!gmd.de!gmdtub!beagle!hbb
From: Harti Brandt <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Begemot PDP-11 emulator version 2.9
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:55:00 +0100
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Hello,

Version 2.9 of p11 - the Begemot PDP-11 emulator - is available on
ftp.fokus.gmd.de:/pub/cats/usr/harti/p11. This release supports the following
platforms:

    FreeBSD [45].0
    Sparc-Solaris 2.[678]
    Redhat-Linux

It will possibly work on FreeBSD [23].* and other Linux variants. To build
it you need libbegemot (avalaible in the same location), gcc and gmake.
Previous versions also built on BSD/OS and SunOS.

A version of the emulator is run on one of our machines. Try one of the
following (it may not always be available):

    telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10000
    telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10001
    telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10002
    telnet scotty.fokus.gmd.de 10003

to get connected to one of the four available terminals. If telnet
connects, but this terminal is currently in use, you'll get a short
message. You should then try connecting to another port. Once you are
online, log into 2.11BSD with username and password guest/guest1.

Don't forget to logout, before disconnecting with telnet.

Note, that there is an IP connection to the host machine, but not to the
outside world (this is due to IP routing restrictions in out network).

The current implementation emulates a KDJ11A, one or more RLV12, RHV??,
RK11 disk controllers, a boot ROM, one or more KL11A controllers, a DEQNA
ethernet adapter, a read-only TM11 tape, a standard line printer interface
and a Toy clock. A boot ROM (with source code) to boot from RL/RK and RP
discs is included.

On a 900MHz Athlons a full 'make world install' of 2.11BSD takes
a little about 2 hours, which is several times faster than a real
PDP. Floating point performance is even higher.

The emulator hast tested with 2.11BSD, RSX and RSX-PLUS, RT V4, V[567]-Unix
and XXDP.

To build the emulator you also need libbegemot. You can find it at the
same address as the emulator.

Enjoy,
    Harti Brandt
--
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
              [e-mail], [e-mail]

13-Mar-2001 12:41:07-GMT,2165;000000000001
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Hello, Joseph. Through Frank da Cruz, I got this request.

> To whom it may concern at Columbia University,
>
>      I would like to obtain a RX-50 floppy disk copy of KERMIT to run on a
> pdp11/53 with Micro/RSX (version 4.1) operating system software here at
> Raytheon in Andover, MA.  Could you please provide me with the necessary
> information for obtaining this software?

I am able to create RX50 floppies, and I'm running RSX here.
My only  problem is that I don't have any empty RX50 floppies.
If that can be solved, I could help you out. I'm located in Sweden,
but floppies are pretty cheap to send.

    Regards,
    Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist             |  [e-mail]
Net Insight AB               |  phone:  [phone]
VΣstberga AllΘ 9             |  fax:    [phone]
Box 42093                    |
SE-126 30 STOCKHOLM, Sweden  |  http://www.netinsight.net

 5-Apr-2001 15:56:39-GMT,1642;000000000001
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From: Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>
To: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>, Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>
cc: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
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Hi, Gang.
I've been peeking some at KRT in order to perhaps get it working on RSX,
but I think I've decided to skip it.
Too much RT-11 stuff have creeped in all over the place. The original
separation between OS-dependant and independat stuff in K11 looks like it
was lost somewhere along the way.

I'll start looking at ways to clean up K11 instead, as my time permits.

    Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: [e-mail]           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

18-May-2001 17:36:44-GMT,2056;000000000011
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From: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
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On Fri, 18 May 2001, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> Hi Bill.  I can't seem to get thru to either of your Ultrix systems to
> build C-Kermit 7.1 Beta.01:

Hmmm...
Telnet to 24.49.73.145
login as fdc
telnet to vax2
login as fdc

That should get you into the home system.

Stuff here is shut down while I re-arrange the lab to facilitate my
recent acquizitions, a pair of 11/44's.  One will be running Ultrix-11.
Interested in building a split I&D version of GKermit??  I don't imagine
CKermit will fit even with split I&D.

The other will be running RSTS/E most of the time.  Has anyone tried
porting GKermit to RSTS yet??

>
>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ck71.html
>
> Are they still there?
>
> Thanks!

Good luck and have fun.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

18-May-2001 18:00:39-GMT,1806;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:00:32 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ultrix?
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 May 2001 13:36:29 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> Telnet to 24.49.73.145
> ...
> That should get you into the home system.
>
OK...  (different directions since last time)

> Stuff here is shut down while I re-arrange the lab to facilitate my
> recent acquizitions, a pair of 11/44's.  One will be running Ultrix-11.
> Interested in building a split I&D version of GKermit??
>
Sure, why not.  But the non-I&D version should run on both, right?

> I don't imagine
> CKermit will fit even with split I&D.
>
Nope, those days are past.  The last C-Kermit that ran on an -11 was 6.0,
on 2.11BSD, which required lots of overlays.  Does Ultrix allow overlays?
If so, it might be an interesting exercise (for somebody who had time :-)

> The other will be running RSTS/E most of the time.  Has anyone tried
> porting GKermit to RSTS yet??
>
Nobody has ever ported G-Kermit to any non-UNIX platform, so that would be
a first!  (I actually used to manage a very big RSTS installation, but that
was back in the RSTS 6.x days, when the only language was Basic -- Fortran
and Macro were there too but kind of hard to get at.)  What do you use for
a C compiler?  DECUS C?

> Good luck and have fun.
>
I'll try, thanks!

- Frank

18-May-2001 20:30:53-GMT,3028;000000000011
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On Fri, 18 May 2001, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> > Telnet to 24.49.73.145
> > ...
> > That should get you into the home system.
> >
> OK...  (different directions since last time)

Well, my ISP changed all the DHCP addresses when they gave me a new
cable modem.  That's probably why.


>
> > Stuff here is shut down while I re-arrange the lab to facilitate my
> > recent acquizitions, a pair of 11/44's.  One will be running Ultrix-11.
> > Interested in building a split I&D version of GKermit??
> >
> Sure, why not.  But the non-I&D version should run on both, right?

Yeah, just thought it would make for something different.

>
> > I don't imagine
> > CKermit will fit even with split I&D.
> >
> Nope, those days are past.  The last C-Kermit that ran on an -11 was 6.0,
> on 2.11BSD, which required lots of overlays.  Does Ultrix allow overlays?
> If so, it might be an interesting exercise (for somebody who had time :-)

Yep.  The kernel is overlayed itself, even on split I&D machines.

>
> > The other will be running RSTS/E most of the time.  Has anyone tried
> > porting GKermit to RSTS yet??
> >
> Nobody has ever ported G-Kermit to any non-UNIX platform, so that would be
> a first!

Maybe I'll take a look at it.  Could be fun.

>          (I actually used to manage a very big RSTS installation, but that
> was back in the RSTS 6.x days, when the only language was Basic -- Fortran
> and Macro were there too but kind of hard to get at.)

I always liked RSTS.  Now I have a chance to get back to it with a current
version.  Y2K ready and everything!!
>                                                        What do you use for
> a C compiler?  DECUS C?

The DEC PDP-11 C Compiler.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

18-May-2001 20:44:40-GMT,2351;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:44:34 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Bill Gunshannon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ultrix?
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 May 2001 16:30:44 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

> > > I don't imagine
> > > CKermit will fit even with split I&D.
> >
> > Nope, those days are past.  The last C-Kermit that ran on an -11 was 6.0,
> > on 2.11BSD, which required lots of overlays.  Does Ultrix allow overlays?
> > If so, it might be an interesting exercise (for somebody who had time :-)
>
> Yep.  The kernel is overlayed itself, even on split I&D machines.
>
Well if you're ever bored, you can take a look at how it was done for
2.11BSD in:

  ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/f/ckubs2.mak

I also used to build C-Kermit (a VERY long time ago) on Venix 1.x and 2.x,
which used code mapping instead of overlays...

> > > The other will be running RSTS/E most of the time.  Has anyone tried
> > > porting GKermit to RSTS yet??
> > >
> > Nobody has ever ported G-Kermit to any non-UNIX platform, so that would be
> > a first!
>
> Maybe I'll take a look at it.  Could be fun.
>
I broke out the i/o into separate modules so you'd just need to replace
gunixio.c with (a new) grstsio.c, in theory.  In practice, I might have
hardwired some assumptions about record form (line ends) into the mainline
code.

> I always liked RSTS.  Now I have a chance to get back to it with a current
> version.  Y2K ready and everything!!
>
I never saw it after V6 or maybe V7, when you were just in Basic+ all the
time, but with some way to start the RT-11 runtime system so you could run
Macro and Fortran.  I understand that later it got more like VMS, with DCL
and everything...

Before RSTS I used DOS-11 -- with cards even!

> > What do you use for a C compiler?  DECUS C?
>
> The DEC PDP-11 C Compiler.
>
Yikes, I had no idea that ever existed outside of Ultrix.

Thanks for bringing up the VAX!

- Frank

30-May-2001 20:45:06-GMT,2110;000000000001
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Hi -

>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/

> -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       2735 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.b2s

This may be useful if BASIC+2 is available on the PDP-11.

> -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       3827 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.ftn

I'm using this, the Fortran version, but I don't have RSX.  It does
both decoding and encoding and works fine.

> -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       4042 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.mac

Unfortunately this one is for RT-11 only..

Then, these program images are (see k11ins.doc for more details and
k11fil.doc for a complete list of all Kermit-11 files) -

Kermit-11 for IAS 3.1 (similar to RSX but not the same..)
-rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     199296 Aug 16  1988 k11i31.hex

Kermit-11 with RMS libraries on disk overlays
-rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     441216 Jun 13  1989 k11nrs.hex

Kermit-11 for P/OS (RSX on PRO-hardware)
-rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     270720 Jun 13  1989 k11pos.hex

Kermit-11 for RSX
-rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     361728 Jun 13  1989 k11rsx.hex

Billy Y..
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

30-May-2001 22:11:35-GMT,3672;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:10:31 -0400
From: John Santos <[e-mail]>
To: Michael Quinlan <[e-mail]>
CC: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: yet another kermit bootstrapping question
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On Wed, 30 May 2001, Michael Quinlan wrote:

> On Wed, 30 May 2001, Frank da Cruz wrote:
> >
> > -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     286848 Jun 13  1989 k11.hex
> > -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       2735 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.b2s
> > -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       2525 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.bas
> > -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit        214 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.com
> > -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       3827 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.ftn
> > -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       4042 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.mac
>
> >
> > As you can see, there are k11hex (hex-file decoder) programs in at least
> > Basic, Fortran, and Macro.
>
>
> 1.  Thank you very much for your reply.  I am grateful for your
> assistance.  I suspect from your CC: list that this is not a regular part
> of your work assignment, so my gratitude is multiplied.
>
> 2.  You have clearly identified the heart of my problem.  The pdp-11/73
> was sent bare-bones by the British instrument manufacturer as a piece of
> OEM equipment sans manuals or higher level languages such as basic or
> fortran.  Everything I have read at ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/
> seems to indicate that I need a version of k11hex.mac written for rsx
> instead of rt-11 to get started.
>
> 3.  Short of translating k11hex.mac into macro for rsx, do I have any
> options?

Do you have any removable media (disks or tapes)?  If so, maybe someone
could put the binary version of K11RSX.TSK on one for you.  Or if
you have a compatable floppy drive, download it to a PC and copy to
a floppy.  (There are various programs on the net for making an ODS-1
(RSX format) floppy on a PC or for reading a DOS-format floppy on
RSX, but to do anything on the RSX side, you may still have the
bootstrap problem.)

Another alternative would be to download the sources for K11 to
a local system, then download them (in ascii) over a serial line
to the RSX system, and build from source.  This would take a while,
there are lots of source files, and it would be error-prone, since
there is no error correction on the serial line when doing ASCII
downloads without a comm program like Kermit.

I think porting K11HEX.MAC to RSX would be the easiest method.
Maybe you could get some hints from K11HEX.FTN or K11HEX.B2S.
I think both of these work on RSX, so they might help with the
file i/o.  The actual HEX-to-binary conversion in K11HEX.MAC
(the main loop) should be O/S independent.

On the last round of Kermit-11 improvements, Billy Yodelman
implemented a lot of new stuff for RT11, and I ported most of
it to RSTS/E before my PDP-11 broke, but we never found an
RSX-11 person to work on that end of things.

--
John Santos
Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
781-861-0670 ext 539

30-May-2001 20:45:06-GMT,2110;000000000001
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Hi -

>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/b/

> -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       2735 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.b2s

This may be useful if BASIC+2 is available on the PDP-11.

> -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       3827 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.ftn

I'm using this, the Fortran version, but I don't have RSX.  It does
both decoding and encoding and works fine.

> -rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit       4042 Jun 13  1989 k11hex.mac

Unfortunately this one is for RT-11 only..

Then, these program images are (see k11ins.doc for more details and
k11fil.doc for a complete list of all Kermit-11 files) -

Kermit-11 for IAS 3.1 (similar to RSX but not the same..)
-rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     199296 Aug 16  1988 k11i31.hex

Kermit-11 with RMS libraries on disk overlays
-rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     441216 Jun 13  1989 k11nrs.hex

Kermit-11 for P/OS (RSX on PRO-hardware)
-rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     270720 Jun 13  1989 k11pos.hex

Kermit-11 for RSX
-rw-rw-r--  1 root     kermit     361728 Jun 13  1989 k11rsx.hex

Billy Y..
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit

26-Jun-2001 15:12:16-GMT,1452;000000000001
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Sender: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:11:31 EDT
From: Kermit Software Support <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [Heather Watson] RSX-11M V02
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:04:01 EDT
Cc: [e-mail], Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>,
        John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>, Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>
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> We have transferred the Kermit source code to our PDP11 and tried to
> assemble it but it wouldn't work. Our OS is RSX-11M Version 2. Do you have
> Kermit source code that is compatible with this OS? Any help would be
> appreciated.
>
> Please put my name in the subject line when replying. Thank you.
>
I'm sorry, but nobody ever wrote Kermit software for any RSX-11/M release
prior to 4.1.  Unfortunately, Kermit-11 requires features of the later
RSX releases.

- Frank

15-Jul-2001  5:19:53-GMT,1548;000000000011
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Frank da Cruz wrote:
>
> Yes, at least one other person is working this.  If anybody else is
> working on it too, please get in touch with me so I can coordinate.

Frank, if nothing comes of these other efforts, let me know and I'll
do the port for you.  Happy to give something back if I can - I've
gotten a lot of use out of Kermit over the years.  (In fact, I think I
contributed the last RSX Kermit-11 patch ten or twelve years ago, when
I was at GE.)

-jch (WRS Consulting Engineer)

15-Jul-2001 17:22:16-GMT,1592;000000000001
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Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:21:54 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: Jerry Hudgins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kermit for VxWorks
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:19:54 -0700
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

[VxWorks...]

> Frank, if nothing comes of these other efforts, let me know and I'll
> do the port for you.
>
Thanks, I'll do that.  Some of the other people *seem* to be making progress,
so we'll see.

> Happy to give something back if I can - I've
> gotten a lot of use out of Kermit over the years.  (In fact, I think I
> contributed the last RSX Kermit-11 patch ten or twelve years ago, when
> I was at GE.)
>
Yes indeed:

  $ grep -i hudgins k11*
  k11m41.mac:     .ident  /5.0.05/        ; Jerry Hudgins (see below)
  k11m41.mac:; 03-Feb-89 Jerry Hudgins 5.0.05
  k11mco.mac:; 07-Feb-89  00:00:00 Jerry Hudgins

Unfortunately, that was the last time anybody touched it.  The RT-11 and
RSTS versions split off after that and have received several important
updates.  But believe it or not, quite a few people still use Kermit-11,
even on RSX.  (Now it looks as if the PDP-11 has outlived not only the VAX
but also the Alpha.)

Thanks again.

- Frank

16-Jul-2001  1:55:40-GMT,1286;000000000001
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        "Re: Kermit for VxWorks" (Jul 15,  1:21pm)
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On Jul 15,  1:21pm, Frank da Cruz wrote:
>
> But believe it or not, quite a few people still use Kermit-11, even on
> RSX.  (Now it looks as if the PDP-11 has outlived not only the VAX but
> also the Alpha.)

Amazing, isn't it?  Who would have thought such a thing?

(I confess that I still miss working in MACRO-11.)

-jch

26-Jul-2001 19:58:52-GMT,4262;000000000401
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From: "roger" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kermit for PDP 11
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:56:11 -0400
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Hi,

I'm using a DEC Micro PDP 11 to acquire data from my instruments.  =
Unfortunately that is the only method we have available to us.  The =
problem is that we need to get the data off the DEC and onto a PC for =
processing, etc.  I was told that this may be possible using Kermit.  =
While getting Kermit onto my PC is trivial, getting it onto the DEC has =
turned out to be quite a challenge.  The DEC is a stand alone machine =
with no connections to the internet and the only way I can think of =
getting it onto the computer is to get a compatible version of Kermit =
onto a TK 50 tape or a 5.25 floppy.  My DEC runs on the Micro/RSX =
operating system (not VMS) and this apparently complicates things even =
more.  If you could provide me with any assistance/pointers at all I'd =
greatly appreciate it.

regards,

Roger Hartmann                                 Lab: [phone]
University of Delaware                         Fax: [phone]
Materials Science & Engineering
301 Spencer Lab
Newark DE, 19716

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm using a DEC Micro PDP 11 to acquire =
data from=20
my instruments.  Unfortunately that is the only method we have =
available to=20
us.  The problem is that we need to get the data off the DEC and =
onto a PC=20
for processing, etc.  I was told that this may be possible using=20
Kermit.  While getting Kermit onto my PC is trivial, getting it =
onto the=20
DEC has turned out to be quite a challenge.  The DEC is a stand =
alone=20
machine with no connections to the internet and the only way I can think =
of=20
getting it onto the computer is to get a compatible version of Kermit =
onto a TK=20
50 tape or a 5.25 floppy.  My DEC runs on the Micro/RSX operating =
system=20
(not VMS) and this apparently complicates things even more.  If you =
could=20
provide me with any assistance/pointers at all I'd greatly appreciate=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roger=20
Hartmann           =
;            =
         =20
Lab: [phone]<BR>University of=20
Delaware           =
;            =
 =20
Fax: [phone]<BR>Materials Science & Engineering<BR>301 Spencer =

Lab<BR>Newark DE, 19716</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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27-Jul-2001 20:22:33-GMT,2023;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:22:27 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "roger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>: Re: ["roger" <[e-mail]>:
        Kermit for PDP 11]]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

I sent your query to a group of PDP-11 experts.  Here's the first
reply:

Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:13:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ["roger" <[e-mail]>: Kermit for PDP 11]
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:12:20 -0400 (EDT)"
 <[e-mail]>
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>

> Can anybody help this guy?  Of course it's RSX, not RT or RSTS...
> Why does everybody want the one that hasn't been updated in 100
> years...

  I think John Wilson's PUTR would help - it can transfer files from a
PC to a RX50-compatible diskette (which the Pro has). It can even format
RX50's. It can read (but not write) Files-11 format, so the user could
just put his test results on floppies and move them to a PC, where he
could use a modern Kermit to get them wherever he needs them (if not on
the PC). Or he could use PUTR to put the old RSX Kermit onto RX50's in
RT-11 format (I'm pretty sure MicroRSX has the EXCHANGE utility to read
RT-11 format floppies) and install it on the Pro that way.

http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/

        Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com
        [e-mail]             New York, NY USA


29-Oct-2001 17:02:42-GMT,2351;000000000001
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Hi -

> I desperately need to copy a 6mg file that is created on the PDP
> to the PC so that I can run a medical research program on the file.

> I tried your approach by copying the krthex.mac to the PDP via the
> console using PIP's *KRTHEX.MAC=TT:  However I don't have macro on
> the PDP (it gives me an error SY:missing)

Does the PDP-11 have floppy disk drives on it?  If it does what size
are they - 8 inch or 5.25 inch?

> In addition, when I tried to copy the hex files I kept getting stack
> overflow even though I used 30 milliseconds between each byte.

I'd suggest trying more delay between bytes here, except without the
Macro assembler there remains the problem of how to built the HEX file
decoder program.

> Is there a way to copy the .sav files in the same manner? i.e is there
> a way to copy the binary .sav to the PDP via the TT: ?

Unfortunately the device handler (driver) on the PDP-11 is 7-bits only,
at least as distributed by DEC.

There is another possibility if you have a program named VTCOM on the
PDP-11 and another system running a program named TRANSFER or TRANSF
such as another more accessable PDP-11 or a VMS host - you could then
use this to copy the file, as well as to get Kermit on to the PDP-11.

But in this case it seems like getting Kermit on a floppy disk would
be the best way to go, if you have floppies on the PDP-11.  Please let
me know if you do and what size they are...

Billy Youdelman
Maintainer of Kermit for RT-11/TSX-Plus
[e-mail]

26-Nov-2001 18:40:33-GMT,3252;000000000001
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Bob Supnik wrote:
>
> More debugging done, so updated today, with the following goodies:
>
> 1. PDP-10 - 1-proceed implemented in ITS mode
> 2. PDP-11/VAX - RQDX3 debugged through most operations in
> non-interrupt mode
> 3. VAX - I/O page linkages corrected
>
> The VAX simulator will now respond correct to boot ROM commands like
>
> >>> sho dev

How do you get it to this point? I've compiled it on a Linux system,
and whatever I try just ends up halting at 0000000? Do you have
an example setup file to pass to the emulator?

Also, vax_ts.c uses a symbol cq_map which isn't defined anywhere.
Compiled using pdp11_ts.c instead and it compiles without errors.

> and correctly show all the units on the RQDX3, as well as the RLV12.
>
> Next steps are to finish the RQDX3 test program, debug it with a
> PDP-11 operating system (probably RSTS/E), and then start to bring up
> VMS.  I will also be changing how the ROM and NVR work - make them
> memories rather than files.

Tried installing RSTS 10.1 on RQ0 (DU0) <also on Linux>, and had no
problems at all. Selected everything to install, but didn't try real
hard to stress it. I did make it build the SIL's, BASIC+ (for 4word
math instead of 2word + string math + matrix ops + debug), and
installed everything for BP2.  Everything seems to run.

Kermit-11 (k11) will send files out of the emulator, but receiving
anything causes k11 to crash, and generate a dump file (doesn't crash
simh, just k11 running under RSTS under simh). Don't know what the
error message is, because when it is in transmit mode kermit hides
everything from you.

19-Nov-2001 21:00:16-GMT,2501;000000000001
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On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Frank da Cruz wrote:

> >   I thought you could use a laugh.  I copied the ckermit stuff over to
> > one of my Ultrix-11 systems.  I had little hope, but I I figured with
> > the overlay linker, anything might be possible.  :-)
> >
> It doesn't figure out the overlays itself does it?

I don't think so.  I've never used it.  Most of my previous PDP stuff
was Fortran, COBOL and Macro.  Mostly under RT-11 although some RSTS.

> I don't suppose it's on the Internet so I could telnet to it?

Sure.  circle.cs.uofs.edu
Userid: fdc
Password: fdc
I copied your dotfiles from one of your vax accounts here.

>
> Anyway, Ultrix-11, if it can be done at all, would need to be done like
> 2.xBSD: it would need its own makefile.  Probably with overlays spelled
> out:
>
>   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/f/ckubs2.mak

Somehow, I think it is too ambitious a project with very little to be
gained.  Afterall, we have GKermit!! :-)

>
> > Sadly, no Ultrix-32 V3.0.  But, maybe I can cobble something together
> > over the holiday.
> >
> "cobble" sounds like "gobble"...

Ah yes, but my holiday starts tonite at 9:00PM.  After that, I'm off til
next week!!

Have fun.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[e-mail]     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

30-Jan-2003 12:43:45-GMT,3068;000000000001
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Thank you once again. U are agreat help
Ta
Regards
Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Kermit Software Support [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: 30 January 2003 17:02
To: Mark Finigan
Cc: [e-mail]; Billy Youdelman; John Santos; Johnny
Billquist; Tim Shoppa; Terry Kennedy
Subject: RE: Retry


> I use the Robust command manually.
> We dont have any manuals for Kermit-11
> would it be possible to supply or send in PDF?
>
It's on our website:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

> I dont seem to be able to turn XON/XOFF on or
> off on Kermit-11 or see what the Parity setting is
> The baud rate is 9600 hard wired on the PDP
> I dint think I can slow the speed down from the PC.
>
If you can't change the speed on the -11, then of
course you should not change it on the PC.

> Would using the "fast" and or the "receive"
> command instead of the "server" command on Kermit-11
> help ???
>
The "fast" command definitely will NOT help.  "server"
versus "receive" won't make a difference.  Keep using
"robust".

If you have trouble with "robust" transfers, it means
that your Windows PC is sending characters faster than
your DOS PC was, even at the same baud rate.  In other
words, when the PC was sending Kermit packets, there
were longer pauses ("stop bits") between each character.

If you can't set up flow control on the connection,
and you can't reduce the speed, there are a few other
things you might try in Kermit 95:

  SET SEND PACKET-LENGTH 40
     Makes Kermit's packets even short.  Experiment
     with different values (60, 40, 30, ...)

  SET SEND PAUSE 500
     Tells K95 to pause for 500 milliseconds after
     sending each packet.  Might give RSX more time
     to digest it.  Experiment with different values.

Also be sure to tell Kermit 95 to:

   SET ATTRIBUTES OFF

This is because of a bug in the old version of
Kermit-11 that you have (unfortunately no newer
version of Kermit-11 was ever issued for RSX).

- Frank


 5-Aug-2003  8:45:59-GMT,11400;000000000001
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From: dvsbng <[e-mail]>
Subject: Reg: Transfer of Data from PDP-11 to IBM-PC through Kermit
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Dear Sir,

I like to introduce myself, G.Suresh Kumar. Working as Service Engineer in INDIA.

I am working with PDP11 system which was shipped along with the GenRad In-Circuit Tester, USA. Model:GR2276XP. The System is not having Kermit S/w on the Winchester Drive.

This ICT has One Background Terminal(VT100) and another Foreground Terminal. I was trying to tansfer the DATA/File from PDP11/GR2276 through VT100 terminal to IBM PC.

The procedure i followed was according to the your Document "KRTHEX.MAC"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bootstrapping
How to get Kermit-11 onto your PDP-11 if it doesn't already have Kermit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Your Information I have copied the Point No:3, which is as below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Run PIP on the PDP-11, then give it a file name to create and tell
; it to take its input from the terminal. Example:
;
; .PIP
; *KRT.HEX=TT: ! or file name of your choice
; ^ ! PIP prints a ^ when it's ready for input
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Following are the procedure followed.

On IBM-PC side:
1) A Null modem cable is connected between PC COM port and VT100 terminal or Background terminal.
2) I configured the HyperTerminal to 9600 speed, parity bit - nil, stop bit - 1, flow control - X-on/X-off.
3) SET the delay in ASCII setup to - Line delay 10ms and Character Delay 10ms. Not successful. Again Tried the same with 100ms.
5) I am able to see the characters sending one by one clearly on IBM PC monitor, but unable to trace out on PDP11/2276.

On the PDP11/2276 side:
6) The VT100 terminal is connected to PC COM. port.
7) Logged on to the User account on to FOREGROUND terminal.
7a) Entered into MCR (Monitor Console Routine) mode.
8) Entered into PIP task.
9) The following command is entered
PIP>KRT.HEX=TT1:
Description:
PIP> indicates PIP(Peripheral Interface Program) task, KRT.HEX is the
destination file name where the Data to be stored in and TT1 is input
terminal i.e., VT100.
10) Pressing Return key, the PDP11/2276 monitor should get ( ^ ) Circumflex or
up-arrow at the prompt,Which indicates the PDP11/2276 system is ready for input of data from the
specified terminal.

[Problem]
At this point I am unable to get the (^ ) Circumflex on the PDP11/2276 Foreground Monitor

11) At this instant I am sending the ASCII file from the PC COM port, which I am able to visualize the characters on PC monitor. PDP11/2276 - on the Winchester Drive, I am able to see the specified input file i.e., KRT.HEX in the default UIC or location of Winchester Drive. After cross checking for the contents, the file size is Zero.

What I understood from the PIP>KRT.HEX=TT1: is that when ever I give this
command, it (PDP11/2276) is creating Destination file name on the default UIC,
here it is KRT.HEX.

Try to throw some light on where i am doing wrong?

Please suggest me to proceed further.

Awaiting for your reply.

Thanks and regards,

Suresh


--Boundary_(ID_lpg6FYIqYkVAh3kMRBT3zA)
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Dear Sir,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>I like to introduce myself, G.Suresh Kumar.
Working as Service Engineer in INDIA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>I am working with PDP11 system which was
shipped along with the GenRad In-Circuit Tester, USA. Model:GR2276XP. The System
is not having Kermit S/w on the Winchester Drive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>This ICT has One Background Terminal(VT100)
and another Foreground Terminal. I was trying to tansfer the DATA/File from
PDP11/GR2276 through VT100 terminal to IBM PC.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>The procedure i followed was according to
the your Document "<FONT color=#000080>KRTHEX.MAC</FONT>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Bootstrapping</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>How to get Kermit-11 onto your PDP-11 if it doesn't
already have Kermit</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>For Your Information I have copied the Point
No:3, which is as below.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3. Run PIP on the PDP-11, then give it a file name to
create and tell</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>; it to take its input from the terminal.
Example:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>; .PIP</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>; *KRT.HEX=TT: ! or file name of your choice</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>; ^ ! PIP prints a ^ when it's ready for
input</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Following are the procedure
followed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Arial>On IBM-PC side:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>1) A Null modem cable is connected between
PC COM port and VT100 terminal or </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>Background terminal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>2) I configured the HyperTerminal to 9600
speed, parity bit - nil, stop </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>bit - 1,
flow control - X-on/X-off.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>3) SET the delay in ASCII setup to - Line
delay 10ms and Character Delay </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>10ms. Not
successful. Again Tried the same with 100ms.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>5) I am able to see the characters sending
one by one clearly on IBM PC monitor, but unable to </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>trace out on PDP11/2276.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Arial>On the PDP11/2276 side:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>6) The VT100 terminal is connected to PC
COM. port.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>7) Logged on to the User account on to
FOREGROUND terminal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>7a) Entered into MCR (Monitor Console
Routine) mode.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>8) Entered into PIP task.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>9) The following command is
entered</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>PIP>KRT.HEX=TT1:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Description:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>PIP> indicates PIP(Peripheral Interface
Program) task, KRT.HEX is the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>destination file name where the Data to be
stored in and TT1 is input</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>terminal i.e., VT100.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>10) Pressing Return key, the PDP11/2276
monitor should get ( ^ ) Circumflex or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>up-arrow at the prompt,Which indicates the
PDP11/2276 system is ready for input of data from the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>specified terminal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 face=Arial>[Problem]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>At this point I am <FONT
color=#ff0000>unable to get the (^ ) Circumflex </FONT>on the PDP11/2276
Foreground Monitor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>11) At this instant I am sending the ASCII
file from the PC COM port, which </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>I am able
to visualize the characters on PC monitor. </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial>PDP11/2276 – on the Winchester Drive, I am able to see the specified
input file i.e., KRT.HEX </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>in the default
UIC or location of Winchester Drive. After cross checking for the </FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial>contents, the file size is Zero.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>What I understood from the
PIP>KRT.HEX=TT1: is that when ever I give this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>command, it (PDP11/2276) is creating
Destination file name on the default UIC,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>here it is KRT.HEX.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Try to throw some light on where i am doing
wrong?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Please suggest me to proceed
further.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Awaiting for your reply.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Thanks and regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>Suresh</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:47:17 +0530
From: dvsbng <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Reg: Transfer of Data from PDP-11 to IBM-PC through Kermit
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Dear Billy,

Thank you very much for the prompt reply.

I forgot to mention the Operating System and the Version No.

Following are the details of the Machine(GR2276xp) / System(PDP11).

Make: GenRad, USA
Model: GR2276XP
Equipment Description: In-Circuit Tester with PDP11 system.
Operating System: RSX11M Plus
Version No: V 3.0

If you require any more details please let me know.

Awaiting for your reply.

Regards,
Suresh



----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: "dvsbng" <[e-mail]>
Cc: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: Reg: Transfer of Data from PDP-11 to IBM-PC through Kermit


> Greetings -
>
> > I am working with PDP11 system which was shipped along with the GenRad
> > In-Circuit Tester, USA. Model:GR2276XP. The System is not having Kermit
> > S/w on the Winchester Drive.
>
> Your letter arrived just as I am leaving for a job that will have me
> occupied all of today.  I will write again with some suggestions as
> soon as I can, which may take as long as until tomorrow.
>
> Please accept my appologies for that, I'm not usually this busy..
>
> Regards,
>
> Billy Youdelman
> [e-mail]
> Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit
>
>


 7-Aug-2003 15:28:16-GMT,2338;000000000001
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Subject: Re: Reg: Transfer of Data from PDP-11 to IBM-PC through Kermit
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Hi -

> Following are the details of the Machine(GR2276xp) / System(PDP11).

> Make: GenRad, USA
> Model: GR2276XP
> Equipment Description: In-Circuit Tester with PDP11 system.
> Operating System: RSX11M Plus
> Version No: V 3.0

Unfortunately I'm only familiar with DEC's RT-11 (a somewhat
different PDP-11 operating system).  But a few months ago
another gentleman named Terry Kennedy had a good suggestion
for RSX users trying to accomplish the same thing you need
to do.  I didn't save a copy of that note but I believe the
support staff at Columbia University would have a copy of it.

So - would you at Columbia please locate that and send us a
copy?  Or if that's not possible I'll ask Terry directly.

>From your previous letter -

> [Problem]
> At this point I am unable to get the (^ ) Circumflex on the PDP11/2276
> Foreground Monitor

I believe PIP under RSX behaves differently than it does under
RT-11 hence this unexpected behavior.  But as well RSX requires
a different executable program image, the RT-11 version will not
run under RSX.

Again please accept my appologies for the delay in answering your
email - RT-11 is widely used in videotape editing systems and here
in the USA this is the week production for most all the year's new
programs begins, so I've been unusually buried with work.

Billy Youdelman
[e-mail]
Mailtainer of the RT-11 Kermit

 8-Aug-2003  2:53:06-GMT,8561;000000000005
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From: dvsbng <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Reg: Transfer of Data from PDP-11 to IBM-PC through Kermit
To: [e-mail]
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Hi Billy,

Thank you very much for the reply.

I request you to help me to get the Notes prepared by Terry Kennedy and if possible please pass on his e-mail ID.

Once again thank you very much for pointing the Fault where i am doing wrong(Reg: following of procedure for Data Transfer).  Whatever you said, i agree with your comment.

Can you pass on the concerned person at Columbia university, so that i can request him for the notes prepared by Terry Kennedy.

Awaiting for your reply.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Suresh



----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: "dvsbng" <[e-mail]>
Cc: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: Reg: Transfer of Data from PDP-11 to IBM-PC through Kermit


> Hi -
>
> > Following are the details of the Machine(GR2276xp) / System(PDP11).
>
> > Make: GenRad, USA
> > Model: GR2276XP
> > Equipment Description: In-Circuit Tester with PDP11 system.
> > Operating System: RSX11M Plus
> > Version No: V 3.0
>
> Unfortunately I'm only familiar with DEC's RT-11 (a somewhat
> different PDP-11 operating system).  But a few months ago
> another gentleman named Terry Kennedy had a good suggestion
> for RSX users trying to accomplish the same thing you need
> to do.  I didn't save a copy of that note but I believe the
> support staff at Columbia University would have a copy of it.
>
> So - would you at Columbia please locate that and send us a
> copy?  Or if that's not possible I'll ask Terry directly.
>
> From your previous letter -
>
> > [Problem]
> > At this point I am unable to get the (^ ) Circumflex on the PDP11/2276
> > Foreground Monitor
>
> I believe PIP under RSX behaves differently than it does under
> RT-11 hence this unexpected behavior.  But as well RSX requires
> a different executable program image, the RT-11 version will not
> run under RSX.
>
> Again please accept my appologies for the delay in answering your
> email - RT-11 is widely used in videotape editing systems and here
> in the USA this is the week production for most all the year's new
> programs begins, so I've been unusually buried with work.
>
> Billy Youdelman
> [e-mail]
> Mailtainer of the RT-11 Kermit
>
>

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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Hi Billy,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Thank you very much for the
reply.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>I request you to help me to get the
Notes prepared by Terry Kennedy and if possible please pass on his e-mail
ID.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Once again thank you very much for
pointing the Fault where i am doing wrong(Reg: following of procedure for Data
Transfer).  Whatever you said, i agree with your comment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Can you pass on the concerned person
at Columbia university, so that i can request him for the notes prepared by
Terry Kennedy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Awaiting for your reply.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Thanks in advance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Suresh</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>[e-mail]</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>To: "dvsbng" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>[e-mail]</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Cc: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>[e-mail]</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>[e-mail]</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>[e-mail]</FONT></A><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 1:35
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: Reg: Transfer of Data
from PDP-11 to IBM-PC through Kermit</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>> Hi -<BR>> <BR>>
> Following are the details of the Machine(GR2276xp) / System(PDP11).<BR>>
<BR>> > Make: GenRad, USA<BR>> > Model: GR2276XP<BR>> >
Equipment Description: In-Circuit Tester with PDP11 system.<BR>> >
Operating System: RSX11M Plus<BR>> > Version No: V 3.0<BR>> <BR>>
Unfortunately I'm only familiar with DEC's RT-11 (a somewhat<BR>> different
PDP-11 operating system).  But a few months ago<BR>> another gentleman
named Terry Kennedy had a good suggestion<BR>> for RSX users trying to
accomplish the same thing you need<BR>> to do.  I didn't save a copy of
that note but I believe the<BR>> support staff at Columbia University would
have a copy of it.<BR>> <BR>> So - would you at Columbia please locate
that and send us a<BR>> copy?  Or if that's not possible I'll ask Terry
directly.<BR>> <BR>> From your previous letter -<BR>> <BR>> >
[Problem]<BR>> > At this point I am unable to get the (^ ) Circumflex on
the PDP11/2276<BR>> > Foreground Monitor <BR>> <BR>> I believe PIP
under RSX behaves differently than it does under<BR>> RT-11 hence this
unexpected behavior.  But as well RSX requires<BR>> a different
executable program image, the RT-11 version will not<BR>> run under
RSX.<BR>> <BR>> Again please accept my appologies for the delay in
answering your<BR>> email - RT-11 is widely used in videotape editing systems
and here<BR>> in the USA this is the week production for most all the year's
new<BR>> programs begins, so I've been unusually buried with work.<BR>>
<BR>> Billy Youdelman<BR>> </FONT><A href="mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>[e-mail]</FONT></A><BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2>> Mailtainer of the RT-11 Kermit<BR>> <BR>>
</FONT></BODY></HTML>

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11-Aug-2003 12:43:04-GMT,2719;000000000001
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Frank da Cruz wrote -

>   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.txt

Thanks Frank.  For convenience I'll append the specific letter
to which I was refering..  This of course requires a floppy disk
drive on the PDP-11 based instrument.  If that's not available
and you need help doing a HEX encoded file transfer to it please
let me know and I'll look through the Kermit archives to see what
is possible there.  I'm not an RSX user but I am familiar with
the PDP-11 Kermit and can at least speed up that part of the
process.

Regards,

Billy Youdelman
[e-mail]
Maintainer of the RT-11 Kermit



Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:13:43 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Terry Kennedy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ["roger" <[e-mail]>: Kermit for PDP 11]
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:12:20 -0400 (EDT)"
 <[e-mail]>
To: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
Cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>

  I think John Wilson's PUTR would help - it can transfer files from a
PC to a RX50-compatible diskette (which the Pro has). It can even format
RX50's. It can read (but not write) Files-11 format, so the user could
just put his test results on floppies and move them to a PC, where he
could use a modern Kermit to get them wherever he needs them (if not on
the PC). Or he could use PUTR to put the old RSX Kermit onto RX50's in
RT-11 format (I'm pretty sure MicroRSX has the EXCHANGE utility to read
RT-11 format floppies) and install it on the Pro that way.

http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/

        Terry Kennedy             http://www.tmk.com
        [e-mail]             New York, NY USA

18-Feb-2004 17:40:21-GMT,2861;000000000001
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> I recently downloaded K95 to see if would successfully help in acquiring a
> database file from a PDP/11-44 to my laptop. The PDP is running Kermit-11
> T2.27. Frank Dacruz who was extremely helpful in getting me confident in
> Kermit suggested that I e-mail the errors we were getting when attempting
> this database download. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Ive the error message and the results of the "SHOW ALL" command on the PDP
> after a few transfer attempts.
>
> Kermit 95 2.1.3, 1 Jan 2003, DSGRMS
>
>    Current Directory: C:/Program Files/Kermit 95 2.1/
> Communication Device: com1
>  Communication Speed: 1200
>               Parity: none
>          RTT/Timeout: 01 / 03
>            RECEIVING: C:\DATABASE.BIN => C:/DATABASE.BIN
...
>           Last Error: Refused, name
>
Why is the file arriving with a name like "C:\DATABASE.BIN"?  Did you
tell Kermit-11 to send it with that name?  Try telling it to just
"send database.bin".  Then Kermit will store the incoming file in either
its current directory or (if you have specified a download directory)
into your download directory.

When a file arrives announcing a full pathname, as in your example,
Kermit does not accept it blindly because that could be a major security
risk -- overwriting critical system files, etc.  So it tries to turn the
incoming pathname string into a relative filename UNLESS you have gone
out of your way to tell it not to.

Beyond that, old versions of PDP-11 Kermit have a bug in their protocol
implementation.  The usual method for working around the bug is to tell
its partner Kermit program (Kermit 95 in this case) to:

  set attributes off

I *think* this bug was fixed in the latest (and probably last) release
of Kermit-11 for RSX, which was 3.60:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html

- Frank

24-May-2005 20:59:16-GMT,4722;000000000011
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Subject: Kermit for PDP-11 on RX50 Diskette for RT-11SJ/XM
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:59:09 -0400
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From: "Segal, Alan S." <[e-mail]>
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To the good folks at the KERMIT Project,

I read on your website (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html) that the Kermit project does not have any PDP-11 computers in house and that you have never been able to make Kermit-11 available on PDP-11 format media. I am hoping to help the Kermit project in this respect, as I can make KRTMIN available to you on a RX50 formatted 5.25" diskette that will boot RT-11 operating systems RT11SJ or RT11XM on a PDP-11.

Using a DOS program named PUTR (www.dbit.com/putr, freeware for hobbyists, although the Kermit project might need a license) it is also possible to make copies of these diskettes using any double-sided double density (but not high density) 5.25" diskettes, which are still widely available. Using the PUTR program, these DSDD 5.25" diskettes can be formatted as an RX50/RT11 diskette, which can then be used as a boot floppy on a real PDP-11. The diskette will boot either RT11SJ or RT11XM, and KRTMIN can be run from the RT-11 . prompt.

I would like to send you two diskettes (one RT11SJ and one RT11XM) so that you would have some native PDP-11 media that will boot these RT-11 operating systems and include the 3 Kermit-11 files needed to run KRTMIN (KRTMIN.INI, KRTMIN.HLP, and KRTMIN.SAV). I have tested these on two PDP-11 (an 11/23 and an 11/73, and they both work perfectly).

Please let me know where I should send the diskettes, and if you require any other information. Below I have included the method for using PUTR to make more RX50 diskettes that will boot RT11SJ or RT11XM and run KRTMIN.

Thank you for keeping the Kermit Project going all these years.

===========================
Alan Segal, M.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Medicine (Nephrology)
Department of Pharmacology
Department of Molecular Physiology & Biophysics

-----------------------


PUTR: A PC Interface for the PDP-11



PUTR is a program written by John Wilson (518-271-6824 and [e-mail]) to allow the PC to format, read, and write floppy discs for the PDP-11. In our case, we exclusively use RX50 formatted 5.25" discs with the RT-11 operating system.



PUTR.com is a DOS program, so double-clicking will open a DOS window and immediately execute the PUTR.INI file that can be used to set preferences and run common commands. This file should at least contain the line:



SET COPY BINARY



so that all copy commands will be done in a binary fashion.



Our 5.25" floppy drive is the A: drive on the Pentium.



To FORMAT a double density (360 kB) 5.25" floppy as RX50 for RT-11:



FORMAT A: /RX50 /RT11



Once a diskette is formatted, it needs to be MOUNTed:



MOUNT A: /RX50 /RT11



To copy PDP-11 files residing in the PDP-11\RT11 directory on the F: drive of the PC:



COPY /binary F:\PDP-11\RT11\*.* A:



Now, if you want to make this diskette a boot floppy:



BOOT A:

Answer the prompts for the monitor (e.g., RT11SJ.SYS or RT11XM.SYS) and the driver (e.g., DU.SYS or DUX.SYS, respectively)



To read an (old) RX50 disc containing PDP-11 files and copy them to the PC:



First, the volume must be MOUNTed:



MOUNT DU0: A: /RT11



Then you can look at the directory the same way you would on the PDP-11:



DIR DU0:



To COPY files from the diskette to the PDP-11\RT11 directory on the PC:



COPY /binary DU0:*.* F:\PDP-11\RT11\*.*



Once that is done, you can use the procedure above to format a new PC diskette and copy the files back to the new diskette.



-------------------------------



25-May-2005 14:30:37-GMT,3529;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:30:36 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "Segal, Alan S." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kermit for PDP-11 on RX50 Diskette for RT-11SJ/XM
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> To the good folks at the KERMIT Project,
>
> I read on your website (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html) that
> the Kermit project does not have any PDP-11 computers in house and that
> you have never been able to make Kermit-11 available on PDP-11 format
> media. I am hoping to help the Kermit project in this respect, as I can
> make KRTMIN available to you on a RX50 formatted 5.25" diskette that will
> boot RT-11 operating systems RT11SJ or RT11XM on a PDP-11.
>
That would be terrific.

> Using a DOS program named PUTR (www.dbit.com/putr, freeware for hobbyists,
> although the Kermit project might need a license) it is also possible to
> make copies of these diskettes using any double-sided double density (but
> not high density) 5.25" diskettes, which are still widely available. Using
> the PUTR program, these DSDD 5.25" diskettes can be formatted as an
> RX50/RT11 diskette, which can then be used as a boot floppy on a real
> PDP-11. The diskette will boot either RT11SJ or RT11XM, and KRTMIN can be
> run from the RT-11 . prompt.
>
That's good to know.  The only PC I still have with 5.25" diskettes is a
PC/AT; I believe one of them is 360K (DD).  I haven't turned it on in a few
years!

> I would like to send you two diskettes (one RT11SJ and one RT11XM) so that
> you would have some native PDP-11 media that will boot these RT-11
> operating systems and include the 3 Kermit-11 files needed to run KRTMIN
> (KRTMIN.INI, KRTMIN.HLP, and KRTMIN.SAV). I have tested these on two
> PDP-11 (an 11/23 and an 11/73, and they both work perfectly).
>
> Please let me know where I should send the diskettes, and if you require
> any other information. Below I have included the method for using PUTR to
> make more RX50 diskettes that will boot RT11SJ or RT11XM and run KRTMIN.
>
Address below.

> Thank you for keeping the Kermit Project going all these years.
>
Thanks for your generous offer!  My first real computing job was in a lab
that had PDP-11s.  I used them for about 10 years, they were lovable, fun,
and useful, compared to today's consumer-oriented products.  You probably
saw my story here (towards the bottom):

  http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/pdp11.html


> Alan Segal, M.D.
> Associate Professor
> Department of Medicine (Nephrology)
> Department of Pharmacology
> Department of Molecular Physiology & Biophysics

Thanks again.

- Frank

Frank da Cruz
The Kermit Project
Columbia University
612 West 115th Street
New York NY  10025-7799
USA
Email: [e-mail]
Voice: [phone]
Fax:   [phone]
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/

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To the good folks at the KERMIT Project,

I read on your website (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html) that the Kermit project does not have any PDP-11 computers in house and that you have never been able to make Kermit-11 available on PDP-11 format media. I am hoping to help the Kermit project in this respect, as I can make KRTMIN available to you on a RX50 formatted 5.25" diskette that will boot RT-11 operating systems RT11SJ or RT11XM on a PDP-11.

Using a DOS program named PUTR (www.dbit.com/putr, freeware for hobbyists, although the Kermit project might need a license) it is also possible to make copies of these diskettes using any double-sided double density (but not high density) 5.25" diskettes, which are still widely available. Using the PUTR program, these DSDD 5.25" diskettes can be formatted as an RX50/RT11 diskette, which can then be used as a boot floppy on a real PDP-11. The diskette will boot either RT11SJ or RT11XM, and KRTMIN can be run from the RT-11 . prompt.

I would like to send you two diskettes (one RT11SJ and one RT11XM) so that you would have some native PDP-11 media that will boot these RT-11 operating systems and include the 3 Kermit-11 files needed to run KRTMIN (KRTMIN.INI, KRTMIN.HLP, and KRTMIN.SAV). I have tested these on two PDP-11 (an 11/23 and an 11/73, and they both work perfectly).

Please let me know where I should send the diskettes, and if you require any other information. Below I have included the method for using PUTR to make more RX50 diskettes that will boot RT11SJ or RT11XM and run KRTMIN.

Thank you for keeping the Kermit Project going all these years.

===========================
Alan Segal, M.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Medicine (Nephrology)
Department of Pharmacology
Department of Molecular Physiology & Biophysics

-----------------------


PUTR: A PC Interface for the PDP-11



PUTR is a program written by John Wilson (518-271-6824 and [e-mail]) to allow the PC to format, read, and write floppy discs for the PDP-11. In our case, we exclusively use RX50 formatted 5.25" discs with the RT-11 operating system.



PUTR.com is a DOS program, so double-clicking will open a DOS window and immediately execute the PUTR.INI file that can be used to set preferences and run common commands. This file should at least contain the line:



SET COPY BINARY



so that all copy commands will be done in a binary fashion.



Our 5.25" floppy drive is the A: drive on the Pentium.



To FORMAT a double density (360 kB) 5.25" floppy as RX50 for RT-11:



FORMAT A: /RX50 /RT11



Once a diskette is formatted, it needs to be MOUNTed:



MOUNT A: /RX50 /RT11



To copy PDP-11 files residing in the PDP-11\RT11 directory on the F: drive of the PC:



COPY /binary F:\PDP-11\RT11\*.* A:



Now, if you want to make this diskette a boot floppy:



BOOT A:

Answer the prompts for the monitor (e.g., RT11SJ.SYS or RT11XM.SYS) and the driver (e.g., DU.SYS or DUX.SYS, respectively)



To read an (old) RX50 disc containing PDP-11 files and copy them to the PC:



First, the volume must be MOUNTed:



MOUNT DU0: A: /RT11



Then you can look at the directory the same way you would on the PDP-11:



DIR DU0:



To COPY files from the diskette to the PDP-11\RT11 directory on the PC:



COPY /binary DU0:*.* F:\PDP-11\RT11\*.*



Once that is done, you can use the procedure above to format a new PC diskette and copy the files back to the new diskette.



-------------------------------



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Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:30:36 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "Segal, Alan S." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kermit for PDP-11 on RX50 Diskette for RT-11SJ/XM
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
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> To the good folks at the KERMIT Project,
>
> I read on your website (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html) that
> the Kermit project does not have any PDP-11 computers in house and that
> you have never been able to make Kermit-11 available on PDP-11 format
> media. I am hoping to help the Kermit project in this respect, as I can
> make KRTMIN available to you on a RX50 formatted 5.25" diskette that will
> boot RT-11 operating systems RT11SJ or RT11XM on a PDP-11.
>
That would be terrific.

> Using a DOS program named PUTR (www.dbit.com/putr, freeware for hobbyists,
> although the Kermit project might need a license) it is also possible to
> make copies of these diskettes using any double-sided double density (but
> not high density) 5.25" diskettes, which are still widely available. Using
> the PUTR program, these DSDD 5.25" diskettes can be formatted as an
> RX50/RT11 diskette, which can then be used as a boot floppy on a real
> PDP-11. The diskette will boot either RT11SJ or RT11XM, and KRTMIN can be
> run from the RT-11 . prompt.
>
That's good to know.  The only PC I still have with 5.25" diskettes is a
PC/AT; I believe one of them is 360K (DD).  I haven't turned it on in a few
years!

> I would like to send you two diskettes (one RT11SJ and one RT11XM) so that
> you would have some native PDP-11 media that will boot these RT-11
> operating systems and include the 3 Kermit-11 files needed to run KRTMIN
> (KRTMIN.INI, KRTMIN.HLP, and KRTMIN.SAV). I have tested these on two
> PDP-11 (an 11/23 and an 11/73, and they both work perfectly).
>
> Please let me know where I should send the diskettes, and if you require
> any other information. Below I have included the method for using PUTR to
> make more RX50 diskettes that will boot RT11SJ or RT11XM and run KRTMIN.
>
Address below.

> Thank you for keeping the Kermit Project going all these years.
>
Thanks for your generous offer!  My first real computing job was in a lab
that had PDP-11s.  I used them for about 10 years, they were lovable, fun,
and useful, compared to today's consumer-oriented products.  You probably
saw my story here (towards the bottom):

  http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/pdp11.html


> Alan Segal, M.D.
> Associate Professor
> Department of Medicine (Nephrology)
> Department of Pharmacology
> Department of Molecular Physiology & Biophysics

Thanks again.

- Frank

Frank da Cruz
The Kermit Project
Columbia University
612 West 115th Street
New York NY  10025-7799
USA
Email: [e-mail]
Voice: [phone]
Fax:   [phone]
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/

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Wow!! I never expected to get a message back from you....Dr. Kermit himself!! I am honored.

And, it is a small world because I have also met Lee Lidofsky....I work with his son Steve, who is a gastroenterologist and researcher in my department!

Here is what I will be sending to you on Double-Sided Double-Density "IBM diskettes" formatted for the PDP-11 as RX50 media using PUTR:

1. PDP-11 Boot Diskette with RT11SJ (v. 5.04B)  and KRTMIN (v. 3.62_5)

2. PDP-11 Boot Diskette with RT11XM (v. 5.05)  and KRTMIN (v. 3.62_5)

I have tested both diskettes on a PDP-11/23 and PDP-11/73. The minimal version of Kermit (KRTMIN) runs properly on both machines.

Please let me know that they work for you, that you are able to make copies, and if I can be of any further assistance.

All the best,
Alan

________________________________

From: Frank da Cruz [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wed 5/25/2005 10:30 AM
To: Segal, Alan S.
Subject: Re: Kermit for PDP-11 on RX50 Diskette for RT-11SJ/XM



> To the good folks at the KERMIT Project,
>
> I read on your website (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp11.html) that
> the Kermit project does not have any PDP-11 computers in house and that
> you have never been able to make Kermit-11 available on PDP-11 format
> media. I am hoping to help the Kermit project in this respect, as I can
> make KRTMIN available to you on a RX50 formatted 5.25" diskette that will
> boot RT-11 operating systems RT11SJ or RT11XM on a PDP-11.
>
That would be terrific.

> Using a DOS program named PUTR (www.dbit.com/putr, freeware for hobbyists,
> although the Kermit project might need a license) it is also possible to
> make copies of these diskettes using any double-sided double density (but
> not high density) 5.25" diskettes, which are still widely available. Using
> the PUTR program, these DSDD 5.25" diskettes can be formatted as an
> RX50/RT11 diskette, which can then be used as a boot floppy on a real
> PDP-11. The diskette will boot either RT11SJ or RT11XM, and KRTMIN can be
> run from the RT-11 . prompt.
>
That's good to know.  The only PC I still have with 5.25" diskettes is a
PC/AT; I believe one of them is 360K (DD).  I haven't turned it on in a few
years!

> I would like to send you two diskettes (one RT11SJ and one RT11XM) so that
> you would have some native PDP-11 media that will boot these RT-11
> operating systems and include the 3 Kermit-11 files needed to run KRTMIN
> (KRTMIN.INI, KRTMIN.HLP, and KRTMIN.SAV). I have tested these on two
> PDP-11 (an 11/23 and an 11/73, and they both work perfectly).
>
> Please let me know where I should send the diskettes, and if you require
> any other information. Below I have included the method for using PUTR to
> make more RX50 diskettes that will boot RT11SJ or RT11XM and run KRTMIN.
>
Address below.

> Thank you for keeping the Kermit Project going all these years.
>
Thanks for your generous offer!  My first real computing job was in a lab
that had PDP-11s.  I used them for about 10 years, they were lovable, fun,
and useful, compared to today's consumer-oriented products.  You probably
saw my story here (towards the bottom):

  http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/pdp11.html


> Alan Segal, M.D.
> Associate Professor
> Department of Medicine (Nephrology)
> Department of Pharmacology
> Department of Molecular Physiology & Biophysics

Thanks again.

- Frank

Frank da Cruz
The Kermit Project
Columbia University
612 West 115th Street
New York NY  10025-7799
USA
Email: [e-mail]
Voice: [phone]
Fax:   [phone]
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/



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Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:19:50 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "Segal, Alan S." <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Kermit for PDP-11 on RX50 Diskette for RT-11SJ/XM
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
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> Wow!! I never expected to get a message back from you....Dr. Kermit
> himself!! I am honored.
>
Aw pshaw.

> And, it is a small world because I have also met Lee Lidofsky....I work
> with his son Steve, who is a gastroenterologist and researcher in my
> department!
>
No kidding, I remember when he was kid.  Also in the small world dept, I
have spent a fair amount of time in Burlington, my old college roommate used
to live there (in the top of Abernethy's, with all the turrets!), and worked
at the hospital a few blocks away, I forget its name.  Now he lives in
Starksboro.

> Here is what I will be sending to you on Double-Sided Double-Density "IBM
> diskettes" formatted for the PDP-11 as RX50 media using PUTR:
>
> 1. PDP-11 Boot Diskette with RT11SJ (v. 5.04B)  and KRTMIN (v. 3.62_5)
>
> 2. PDP-11 Boot Diskette with RT11XM (v. 5.05)  and KRTMIN (v. 3.62_5)
>
> I have tested both diskettes on a PDP-11/23 and PDP-11/73. The minimal
> version of Kermit (KRTMIN) runs properly on both machines.
>
> Please let me know that they work for you, that you are able to make
> copies, and if I can be of any further assistance.
>
Well, I received them just now, but I don't have any PCs handy for making
copies; I'd have to dig them out of storage.  Although I do have a working
Rainbow, could I use that?

Thanks for sending the disks, they might end up doing some real good some
day, in the sense of saving lives or somesuch, since I know that PDP-11s are
still in use with medical equipment here and there, although the details
escape me at the moment.

- Frank

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From: "Anderson, Terri" <[e-mail]>
To: "'Frank da Cruz'" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: PDP Keyboard Lock Issue
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:25:50 -0500
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Mr. da Cruz,

Thank you very much for the information you provided regarding the PDP-11
keyboard lock issue.

Our electronic technician (Steve) disconnected the cables & connectors
for the PDP and gave them a thorough cleaning & removed a fair amount
of dust from the unit (imagine that...).  Once all cables were back
in place, the keyboard unlocked and the system became fully operational
again.

Your suggestions were most helpful and we appreciate your prompt reply.

Terri H. Anderson
FEMA MWEOC
[e-mail]

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank da Cruz [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 3:57 PM
To: Anderson, Terri
Cc: Blankinship, Robert
Subject: Re: PDP Keyboard Lock Issue

> We are running a vintage PDP-11 with a VT100.  Upon powering up the
> system, the keyboard lock indicator is ON, and we are unable to unlock the
> keyboard.  We have the tech manual for the PDP-11, but nothing on the
> keyboard. We obtained your name from the site below while researching the
> problem.
>
> http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/vt100.html
>
> We would appreciate any assistance you can provide that may help us unlock
> the keyboard.
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
The KBD LOCKED light indicates:

 1. Characters are typed faster than the terminal can transmit them
    (probably not what's happening in this case); or:

 2. Terminal is in half-duplex mode and receiving characters (this can
    only happen with VT101 and above, so if you have a real VT100 then
    this is not it either); or:

 3. A print operation is in progress while the terminal is offline; or:

 4. Terminal not connected to computer correctly (some required signals are
    missing).  If this same terminal has been plugged in to the same
    computer for a long time, then this could be the explanation only if
    "something happened", like the cable wiggled loose or a wire or solder
    connection broke within the cable or connector, etc.

 5. A startup self-test is in progress, and it's not completing
    successfully.  Maybe the terminal is just plain dead.  My last VT100
    died at least 10 years ago.

Try turning the terminal off, letting it rest a while, and turning it back
on.
Try wiggling the cables, reseating the connectors, etc.  If none of that
helps, I'm sure you could replace the terminal with a modern PC running
emulation software, such as our own Kermit 95:

  http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/k95.html

provided you have an RS-232 (not current loop) connection between the
terminal and the PDP-11.  If all else fails, I'm sure you can find another
VT100 on E-Bay or something.

> Terri H. Anderson
> FEMA Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center
> 540-542-3491
> [e-mail]

Frank da Cruz
The Kermit Project
Columbia University
612 West 115th Street
New York NY  10025-7799
USA
Email: [e-mail]
Voice: [phone]
Fax:   [phone]
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/

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From: "Kelvin Smith" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: K95 survey
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:17:16 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank da Cruz" <[e-mail]>
To: "Kelvin Smith" <[e-mail]>
Cc: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: K95 survey


> We'll do it if we get permission to spend the money.  I have not yet found
> the magic words to get our new management to understand that such things
> are good investments.  Testimony from paying customers or potential
> large licensees is the only thing they might understand.  If you'd like to
> explain why this feature is important to you, I can use that to help.
> Something like "We distribute Kermit 95 to medical secretaries all over
> the state for them to upload insurance claims to Medicare, and they are
> not able to deal with 'escape back to the prompt, give a Send command,
> return to the terminal screen'."

I can't make such a claim. Just two guys in my office using it, and we're
both smart enough to figure out what to do. It would just be a convenience,
particularly being able to select multiple (but not all) files from a
directory.

> That's the one from our kermit/test/pdp11 directory?  I think that's the
> first feedback I've had about it in 10 years.

<g>

> I used to run a RSTS system here but that was over 30 years ago.  Wow,
> how'd that happen?  You have a real DEC PDP-11?

My company's business is providing lease accounting services to other
companies. The report calculations & generation software was written for
RSTS in the late 1970s and early 1980s. There's over 400,000 lines of code,
so rewriting it all for another platform has been a project I've avoided.
Actually, I'm currently working on a Visual Basic .NET version of the basics
of the system, with the thought that if there's a decent market response,
I'll eventually expand that version to do the whole show, but it'll take
time. In the meantime, we're still running RSTS, though in 2000 we pulled
the plugs on the PDP-11s and moved everything to an emulator that runs on a
PC. Since PDP-11s haven't been taking advantage of Moore's Law lately, by
switching to the emulator on the PC we were able to speed up the system
literally by a factor of 10, even when 600 MHz was state of the art. Earlier
this year we moved to a 2.4 GHz CPU, so the speed jumped by a factor of 4
again. Using PCs also means a lot less power consumption and heat
generation.

Time was when we provided printout reports to all of our clients. Now they
get most everything emailed, so Kermit is vital to get the reports
transferred from RSTS to the PC to email (and to upload clients' updates).
Thanks for your efforts.

Kelvin Smith
Financial Computer Systems, Inc.


20-Dec-2006 14:10:15-GMT,3586;000000000001
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 9:10:15 EST
From: Frank da Cruz <[e-mail]>
To: "Kelvin Smith" <[e-mail]>
Cc: Billy Youdelman <[e-mail]>, John Santos <[e-mail]>,
        Johnny Billquist <[e-mail]>,
        Tim Shoppa <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: K95 survey
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[For those in the cc list, this is in reference to the discovery by Kevin
Smith -- whose business runs on simulated PDP-11s with RSTS, and who
therefore makes heavy use of Kermit-11 -- that K11 3.60 can not send text
lines longer than 192 bytes, and that K11 4.64 has a limit of 512...]

> I found the maximum line length error doesn't totally go away with the
> newest edition of Kermit for RSTS. The boundary is now 512 characters, not
> the 192 that it was previously, but Kermit still can't handle an
> unlimited-length line in ASCII mode. Perhaps that's understandable (who
> would want to read a line 500+ characters long?), but my situation is that
> I'm transferring some text files for conversion into Excel spreadsheets, and
> I have to use binary mode transfers for those, but binary mode isn't good
> for actual text files, because you end up with a bunch of nulls at the end
> of the file. And since Notepad allows one to create text files with word
> wrap on display, a 500+character text line isn't unreasonable in a PC
> environment.
>
The problem is evidently that the Kermit-11 file reader is record-oriented,
which is probably a reflection of the underlying file system.  In Unix,
Windows, DOS, etc, we can treat a file as an undifferentiated stream of
bytes and do our own buffering.  In VMS, RSX, etc, one must use RMS to get
structured objects out of files.  I don't recall RSTS being that way when
I knew it (circa V6), but I think in later versions it inherited a lot of
that.  So I suspect Kermit-11 is using RMS or something like it to read
records, which in the case of text files are "lines".

In VMS we do the same thing in C-Kermit, but there we have the luxury of
making Kermit's buffer the same size as the maximum record record length
that a file can have (32K as I recall).  But since Kermit-11 is a 16-bit
application, and does a lot of stuff, it's probably already on the edge of
the limitations of the architecture.

But I don't really know.  I'll cc this to some other people who would know
better (in hopes that they still are at their addresses from a few years
ago).

- Frank