The World of Computer Software/World_Of_Computer_Software-02-387-Vol-3of3.iso/s/sf018031.zip/SF018031.TXT

Text File | 1993-01-16 | 18KB | 391 lines

SF-LOVERS Digest          Wednesday, 13 Jan 1993       Volume 18 : Issue 31

Today's Topics:

                          Books - Niven (9 msgs)

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Date: 28 Dec 92 02:43:38 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye

   Went to the mall today to pick up today's newspaper, and I decided to
drop by the local Waldenbooks, and I found a copy of a fannish interview of
Niven and Pournelle on a Waldenbooks commercial flyer.
   I don't have the strength to type out the whole interview, and most of
you probably know a lot of this already, so here is some of the points:
   _Mote_ came about because Niven had "a four line sentence about an
asymmetric alien" left over from a previous novel.  "Except for the actual
appearance, the whole creature was Jerry's.  It had to have evolved
intelligence, a wily intelligence."  "At the start, Larry was very much the
senior author and so it started that he had the veto over what happened
because it was basically his reputation that was up."  "[Heinlein] did a
full proofreading job on that book.  It is something nobody could have paid
him enough money to do.  And it's an incredible piece of work that will
belong to the future.  Obviously Mrs. Heinlein has the right to publish
that first, but if she doesn't then one of these days, we will.  But
obviously, we are not going to assert rights over a letter to us until
she's ready to give it up."
   For _Gripping Hand_; "We get together, we decide what has to be written,
and one of us volunteers or persuades the other to volunteer.  We have
certain domains.  If one of us feel inspired, that's it.  Otherwise, if
it's Navy and politics, it's Jerry's and if it's aliens, it's likely to be
mine.  And it's a matter of who can persuade the other that it needs
doing."
  Misc: "Jim Baen is one of the several publishers who has been
deliberately introducing junior authors to seniors in the hope of getting
more work out of the senior workers.  He has encouraged me [Pournelle] to
invent _War World_ as a playground for people to write in and Larry did the
same thing in his _Man Kzin Wars_, and oddly enough, I can't write _Man
Kzin Wars_ unless I have somebody like Steve Stirling because I can't make
myself believe in it long enough to do it."
   "I {Pournelle}'m writing one of the last books in the _Codominium_
mercenary series.  The reason it's got to be one of the last ones is
because it is becoming increasingly harder to sustain the notion that the
United States and the Soviet Union got together and divided the world
between them.  At the time I wrote that, it looked like as good a
prediction as any as to what would happen.  I mean assuming we didn't have
a war.  A codominium of these two countries running the world was not all
improbable.  Indeed I think if George Bush had his druthers, he and
Gorbachev would have gotten together and done it.  The only thing that kept
it from happening was Reagan's SDI program... so, since Larry and I were
fairly influential in getting the SDI policy adopted, I suppose you can say
we killed the Codominium series."

   Pournelle is writing a Codominium mercenary book as stated above, and
has finished a draft for the fourth Jannissaries book (ho-hum.)  Niven is
working on _Destiny's Road_ based on Michael Whelan cover.  (Don't ask me;
I don't know what it is)
   The interview also contains a black and white picture of the cover
(boring), and it features a three-fingered hand which looks suspiciously
like the hand of the alien in the movie _Total Recall_.

    FINISH INTERVIEW:

    Personal Comments: Waiting for _Gripping_ has sort of made me realize
that while I really enjoy Niven and Pournelle collaborations, I'm not all
that crazy about their solo work.  I enjoyed _King David's Spaceship_, and
the first two mercenary novels (though they owe a hell of a lot to
Dickson's first four Dorsai books...) and various Niven's short stories,
their solo works just don't grab me as much as their collaborations.
    I would also love to see exactly what RAH contributed to _mote_.  Any
comments?

Junsok Yang

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Date: 28 Dec 92 21:20:38 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Dave Schaumann)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye

Caughill@mixcom (Caughill) writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>>Anyway, can anyone suggest other Niven novels I might want to check out?
>>[besides _Mote_]
>
>     Asking which Niven book to read next is like asking which flavor of
>ice cream to try next - it really doesn't matter they're all great.

I wouldn't go that far.  For a long time, Niven was on my "must buy/read"
(depending on how much cash I had available at any given time) list.

However, starting, I think, with _Footfall_, Niven has written some novels
that are less than wonderful.  _Footfall_ is pretty much an uninspired
re-work of _Lucifer's Hammer_, for instance.  And what I've heard about
_Fallen Angels_ makes me want to stay far away.

I read _Dreampark_ when it first came out; I don't remember that I was
particularly impressed.  I haven't read any of the follow-ups.

I would certainly recommend virtually anything he wrote before _Footfall_.
_Legacy of Heorot_ (or however it's spelled) is pretty good, and so is
_Oath of Fealty.  Also be sure to watch for _The Gripping Hand_ (unless
they change the name again), which is the sequel to _Mote_ and due out this
spring.  Also, you might consider going to the library and checking out
_N-Space_ and/or _Playgrounds of the Mind_.  These two (recently published)
books contain a survey of Niven's work (along with comments and
explanations).  They would be a good place to find other things you might
be interested in reading.

As a general comment on Niven's writing, I think that part of the problem
is that for the most part, he's better at writing short stories than
novels.  IMHO, much of his best work involves the "Known Space" series of
stories, a large part of which consists of short stories.  It's also worth
noting that at least two of his novels (_Protector_ and _A World Out of
Time_) started out as shorter works, and were expanded to novel-length.

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Date: 28 Dec 92 21:10:46 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Erik Max Francis)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye

[e-mail] writes:
>     Personal Comments: Waiting for _Gripping_ has sort of made me realize
> that while I really enjoy Niven and Pournelle collaborations, I'm not all
> that crazy about their solo work.  I enjoyed _King David's Spaceship_,
> and the first two mercenary novels (though they owe a hell of a lot to
> Dickson's first four Dorsai books...) and various Niven's short stories,
> their solo works just don't grab me as much as their collaborations.

Yeah, I agree.  Some of Niven's shorts are great, but some of his novels
are really lacking.  Someone around here pointed out, I think quite
correctly, that Niven's good at science, Pournelle's good at
characterization, and Barnes, if it's a collaboration with him, is good at
that extra horror touch.

>I would also love to see exactly what RAH contributed to _mote_.  Any
>comments?

From _N-Space_, p. 335-6:

    "Jerry sent our 'finished' mansucript to a friend:  Robert Heinlein.
    Robert told us that he could put one terrific blurb on the cover _if_
    we made some changes.  The first hundred pages had to go . . .
        "And we did that, and re-introduced characters and moved back-
    ground data from the last prologue to a later scene set on New
    Scotland, and did more chopping throughout.  'There's a scene I
    _never_ liked,' I told Jerry, and our whole relationship changed.
    This was when we learned not to be too polite to a collaborator; it
    hurts the book.
        "And we sent it back to Robert, _who did a complete line-editing
    job_.
        "I know of a man who offered Robert Heinlein a reading fee!  The
    results were quite horrid.  But in the case of _Mote_, Robert hadn't
    expected us to take his advice.  Nobody ever had before (he told us).
    But if "Possibly the finest science fiction novel I have ever read"
    were to appear on the cover above Robert Heinlein's name, then the
    book had to _be_ that.
        "It took us forever to write.  We won the LASFS's 'Sticky' Award
    for 'Best Unpublished Novel' two years running.  It was worth every
    minute."

That's the only real mention of Heinlein's part.  Except for cutting out
the introduction, no specifics are given about what Heinlein wanted
changed.

Erik Max Francis
1070 Oakmont Dr. #1
San Jose, CA  95117
..!apple!uuwest!max
[e-mail]

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Date: 5 Jan 93 21:34:02 GMT
From: upchrch![e-mail] (Joel Upchurch  )
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye

[e-mail] writes:
>    I would also love to see exactly what RAH contributed to _mote_.  Any
>comments?

I certainly would. Larry Niven said that RAH's comments on _Mote_ ran to 70
pages single spaced. It would be an important bit of science fiction
history if nothing else. It would probably take quite a few footnotes by
Niven and Pournelle to make it intelligible, since there would be
references to things in the first draft that didn't end up in the final
copy. If there aren't, then it would be hard to sustain the claim that RAH
had much impact on the final form of the book.

Joel Upchurch
Upchurch Computer Consulting
718 Galsworthy
Orlando, FL 32809
[phone]
[e-mail]
{uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel

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Date: 8 Jan 93 15:25:47 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Koenig)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Niven/Mote in God's Eye

[e-mail] (Laura Johnson) writes:
>Niven/Pournelle books are not the same as Niven books. Many people like
>both, of course, but I find that I quite enjoy the collaborative efforts
>but can't finish most books by Niven alone. My perception is that Niven
>has these great ideas, and Pournelle adds stuff like plot and
>characterization. Your mileage may vary.

I think you are right for later Niven, say after 1975 or so.  He seems to
have lost his knack for characterization around that time.  His earlier
novels, like "World of Ptavvs", "Protector", plus his Known Space short
stories, usually have quite believable characters.

Thomas Koenig
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

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Date: 8 Jan 93 19:10:16 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Solovay)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Niven a misogynist?

[e-mail] (Sara Beck) writes:
[Mote In God's Eye]
>also had yet another example of Niven's quite extraordinary misogyny,
>which I don't think has been mentioned on the net.  If a writer comes up
>with ONE alien species in which the females are non-sentient or
>non-intelligent, or in which the process of reproduction is fraught with
>catastrophic threats and dangers, one can say that it doesn't make sense
>scientifically but hey, neither does FTL travel, and this is what SF does.
>But if EVERY alien species this writer can find in his imagination has
>either profoundly defective females, great threats in child-bearing, or
>both, phrases like "deep-seated authorial neurosis" begin to come to mind.

"EVERY" alien species? You weaken your case considerably by overstating it.
Let's run through the Niven sentient species, shall we?

Slavers and Kzinti: Okay, these have non-sentient females (though sentient
Kzinti females have popped up in some of the man-kzin wars stories, with
Niven's blessing). No reproductive problems like those you describe. See
also "Grogs" below.

Kdatlyano, Tnuctipun, Outsiders, Bandersnatchi, Martians: Insufficient
data. We don't even know that they have two sexes.

Grogs: Distant descendants of slavers (by hypothesis); sentient *females*,
non-sentient *males*. Hello? Hello? No reproductive problems.

Puppeteers: What Nessus refers to as "females" aren't really in the same
species; they're actually host-bodies. Puppeteers don't have a male-female
dichotomy the way humans do. Childbirth isn't fraught with "catastrophic
threats and dangers"; there is, however, no way of having sex without
producing a pregnancy, so overpopulation is a problem.

Dolphins, Pak: Male-female equality (though dolphins have a harem-like
family structure). No reproductive problems. "Pak" includes all Pak-related
species, incl. Earth primates and most Ringworld inhabitants.

Moties: Sexuality all over the freaking *map*, but certainly not
"non-sentient females" as you describe. Reproduction itself isn't fraught
with dangers; however, the lack of reproduction *is*, so overpopulation
results.

Am I thick? To me, a general trend fails to emerge.

Andrew Solovay

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 93 21:01:50 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Eric Goldstein)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Niven and Female Aliens

Speaking of Niven, Sara Beck wrote:
>But if EVERY alien species this writer can find in his imagination has
>either profoundly defective females, great threats in child-bearing, or
>both, phrases like "deep-seated authorial neurosis" begin to come to mind.

And Markus Stumptner reponded:

>>Now, personally, I'm not convinced the trend she refers to in Niven's
>>work exists, but arguing that a book is not an outrageously obvious
>>example does not prove that it is no example at all.  Go dig up races in
>>Niven's work that dispute the trend.  I seem to remember that the
>>puppeteers are a counterexample.

This sounds like a fun game!  Ignoring the question of whether Niven has a
deep-seated authorial neurosis, how many of Niven's alien species do NOT
have non-sentient females?

Dani Zweig, for example, pointed out that the Moties are hermaphroditic.

How about the Grogs?  Weren't the females the only intelligent ones?  (I
think this was even cited as evidence of a coverup in the farcical Down In
Flames....)

How about the Martians?  Did Niven ever mention any sexual characteristics?

How about the Kladato(sp) - the race that "cleverly" used the water hole
frequency to discover the Kzinti.  Any reference to unintelligent females?

How about the Bandersnatch?  Or the Outsiders?  Any sexual reproduction at
all?

What about the Protectors?  There were intelligent female protectors, but
do protectors count as a seperate species?  Presumably they do, as the
breeders from the Protector's home world couldn't breed with humans.

For that matter, I suppose all of the hominids on the Ringworld are
examples of species which have intelligent females.  (In addition, here we
have females who can take on the same roles as the males - witness the
female Nighthunter guard in the floating city in The Ringworld Engineers.
Oh, and how about the female chief of the small red carnivourous species we
meet at the beginning of the same book?  In fact, I think The Ringworld
Engineers may have featured females in the majority of the powerful or
authoritative roles...but I really didn't want to get into politics!)

Seriously, please don't consider this to be a flame on Sara Beck.  I'm not
even arguing that Niven isn't a misogynist.

Politics aside, can anyone else think of any other Niven species which do
not have non-sentient females?

Eric Goldstein
Institute for the Learning Sciences
Northwestern University
Evanston, Il.  60201
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 93 02:08:36 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Paul Ciszek)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Niven and Sexual Hangups

Someone has noted that, regardless of the number or sentience of the
genders involved, most of Niven's species have problems with sex and
reproduction.  Perhaps this is something that comes with the territory?  I
mean, some folks would have us believe that human psychology is made
entirely of intricately woven sexual hangups; if they are right, then if
humans had no sexual hangups, they would have no psychology!  Any race with
intelligence evolved it because, for some reason, living as a dumb animal
just wasn't working anymore.  If intelligent beings could get laid without
having to play head games, they would no longer have any need for
intelligence. ;-)

If you eat from the tree of Knowledge, you end up having to work for a
living and breeding isn't as much fun anymore.  Niven is not the first
writer to think of this.

Paul Ciszek
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 93 06:34:36 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Dan Blum)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Niven and Female Aliens

And let's not forget the chirpsithtra (from the Draco's Tavern stories)!
The males are apparently the property of the females, who also own most of
the galaxy :).

Dan Blum
Institute for the Learning Sciences
Room 327
1890 Maple Ave.
Evanston, IL 60201
708-467-2306
[e-mail]

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End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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