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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 12 Feb 1993        Volume 18 : Issue 97

Today's Topics:

               Books - Herbert (3 msgs) & Norman (5 msgs) &
                       Perry (3 msgs)

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Date: 8 Feb 93 19:17:55 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Mithrandir)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert

[e-mail] writes:
>This is completely a matter of opinion, and hotly contested. In my
>completely godlike opinion, ONLY the original - DUNE, is worth reading
>(and very, VERY worth reading); the remainder... well, DUNE MESSIAH is
>utter drek. THe third book is tolerable, but not compared with its
>original predecessor, and the rest.... Well, I can't use language like
>that on the net.

   Well, I've found that many of the people who saw Paul Atreidies as a
hero in DUNE didn't like the other five for the following reasons, see if
they are yours as well, (not saying that they are, but still, this may make
for an interesting experiment, providing I'm not flamed off the net!)

   1. I didn't like DUNE MESSIAH because Paul was a conquered,
      weak, lame guy.
   2. I didn't think CHILDREN OF DUNE was as bad as Dune M,
      But I still didn't like it 'cause Alia's a lamer, and
      all of the good guys in the first book are bad.
   3. I didn't like GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE, because Leto turned
      bad, and because the end was lame.
   4. I didn't like HERETICS OF DUNE because...
         a. Too much sex! (I HAVE heard this one, funny as
            it may seem!)
         b. Dune got destroyed! :(

   5. Didn't like CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE because the END SUCKED!
      (I'm sure everyone agrees with 5! :) )

REMEMBER, I AM IN NO WAY STATING THESE ARE YOUR OPINIONS, THESE ARE JUST
SOME OBSERVATIONS I'VE MADE!

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Date: 9 Feb 93 20:02:26 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Sea Wasp)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert

[e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>>This is completely a matter of opinion, and hotly contested. In my
>>completely godlike opinion, ONLY the original - DUNE, is worth reading
>>(and very, VERY worth reading); the remainder... well, DUNE MESSIAH is
>
>Well, I've found that many of the people who saw Paul Atreidies as a hero
>in DUNE didn't like the other five for the following reasons, see if they
>are yours as well, (not saying that they are, but still, this may make for
>an interesting experiment, providing I'm not flamed off the net!)
>
>   1. I didn't like DUNE MESSIAH because Paul was a conquered,
>      weak, lame guy.
>   2. I didn't think CHILDREN OF DUNE was as bad as Dune M,
>      But I still didn't like it 'cause Alia's a lamer, and
>      all of the good guys in the first book are bad.

   The above apply to some extent, yes. More to the point is that Herbert's
writing got so ponderous the book gave you a hernia even in paperback.
Boring, vague, and full of BS. Not to mention his Idaho Potato... er,
Duncan Idaho stunt. As things went on, he started adding things onto his
universe that offended my literary aesthetic sense; as though he'd started
out with a nice streamlined limousine and suddenly attached a bathtub and
outrigger canoe onto it with glue.

I never liked Alia anyway; she was my least-favorite character.

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Date: 9 Feb 93 23:34:01 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Charles B. Owen)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert

[e-mail] writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>>[e-mail] writes:
>>>This is completely a matter of opinion, and hotly contested. In my
>>>completely godlike opinion, ONLY the original - DUNE, is worth
>>>reading (and very, VERY worth reading); the remainder... well, DUNE
>>>MESSIAH is

I may be the strange one here, but I really liked all of the Dune series.
Sure it had its ups and downs, but overall it was very good.  As far as the
first trilogy is concerned, the theories that he wrote one good book then
"whatever" discount his own statement that all three books were written at
the same time in an arbitrary order.  One problem is that the first book is
a classic and the rest are just good books.

I am curious.  It has been a while since I read Chapterhouse: Dune, but I
recall feeling at the time that it was a setup for a much larger final book
in the series (one that did not come).  Any ideas on this?  Haver there
been any notes or synopsis released from the estate?  (It seems like they
have gone out of their way to cash in) I think he set up for the return of
Muad'Dib.

By the way, before I get 14 responses of "He's dead, Jim," remember that
death in the Dune series can be temporary.  (Can you say ghola?  I knew you
could!)

Charles B. Owen
Western Illinois University
1002 E. Murray
Macomb, IL  61455
309-837-4292
[e-mail]

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Date: 9 Feb 93 15:45:52 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Daniel Barnaby Gibson)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Counter-Earth "or" Tarl Cabot

Has anyone out there read any of the Counter Earth series by John Norman?
It was about a planet that rotated around the sun opposite the Earth. The
planet was called Gor, and was very barbaric. I have not been able to find
any of the books for a while. Are they out of print? Can I get them
anywhere. This was some of the best sci fic/fantasy writing I've ever come
across.

[e-mail]

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Date: 9 Feb 93 18:44:27 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Tarl Neustaedter)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Counter-Earth "or" Tarl Cabot

[e-mail] (Daniel Barnaby Gibson) writes:
> Has anyone out there read any of the Counter Earth series by John Norman?
> It was about a planet that rotated around the sun opposite the Earth. The
> planet was called Gor, and was very barbaric. I have not been able to
> find any of the books for a while. Are they out of print?

I hope so. You can find them in used bookstores. There were 20-odd of them
published. The earlier ones came across like Burroughs' John Carter series,
with a rougher edge. They degenerated into pure S&M/Bondage, as far as I
could tell (not that I read many late in the series - my tolerance was
limited).

> This was some of the best sci fic/fantasy writing I've ever come across.

Ulp. Not to burst your bubble, but I hope you read those when you were a
teenager. This fiction definitely reads better by adolescents than adults,
and you may find them less entertaining these days.

Tarl Neustaedter
Stratus Computer
Marlboro, Mass.
[e-mail]

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Date: 9 Feb 93 21:29:00 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Claus Schwinge)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Counter-Earth "or" Tarl Cabot

[e-mail] (Daniel Barnaby Gibson) writes:
>Has anyone out there read any of the Counter Earth series by John Norman?
>It was about a planet that rotated around the sun opposite the Earth. The
>planet was called Gor, and was very barbaric. I have not been able to find
>any of the books for a while. Are they out of print? Can I get them
>anywhere. This was some of the best sci fic/fantasy writing I've ever come
>across.

You have GOT to be kidding me.

It's been a while since I read them, I distinctly remember that only the
first few books were worth reading. (#1 was the best, and very good, and
then went sharply downhill).  As far as I know, the series is up to
twenty-something.  The main thread of ALL the later books (after the first
few) was that women were inferior to men, and all wanted to be dominated by
a strong manly-man in and out of bed.  Women brought over from our Earth
especially so because they had been deprived of a "real" man for all their
lives.

Btw, I stopped after #15 or so, don't ask me why I read that many.
Probably because someone donated his collection to the local library.

Claus Schwinge

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Date: 9 Feb 93 23:57:31 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Counter-Earth "or" Tarl Cabot

[e-mail] (Claus Schwinge) writes:
> You have GOT to be kidding me.
>
> It's been a while since I read them, I distinctly remember that only the
> first few books were worth reading. (#1 was the best, and very good, and
> then went sharply downhill).  As far as I know, the series is up to
> twenty-something.  The main thread of ALL the later books (after the
> first few) was that women were inferior to men, and all wanted to be
> dominated by a strong manly-man in and out of bed.  Women brought over
> from our Earth especially so because they had been deprived of a "real"
> man for all their lives.

I agree wholeheartedly with Claus.  IMO the series was bearable up until
about #3 (the storyline made up for having to listen to his posturing),
therafter I choked on his ranting.  But the reason for this followup is to
add one idea a friend told me about.  Using it, he made it through all the
Gor books he could find (one a year for a while).

As soon as Norman starts espousing/preaching/raving on a submissive female
topic, skip everything to the end of the chapter.  The beginning of the
next chapter would start advancing the story again.  I looked at a few
examples and... IT WORKS! - of course the books are a lot shorter ;-) Too
bad this didn't work for Sharon Green.

Enjoy (but why these books?)

Eric Dittmar
[e-mail]

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Date: 10 Feb 93 01:22:59 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Mike Johns)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Counter-Earth "or" Tarl Cabot  ** vague spoilers **

Well yes, I would have to agree that the, umm, literary quality is poor at
best.  I also recall that Edgar Rice Burroughs wasn't so hot either.  One
can almost imagine them being the same series but written in entirely
different times.  The first couple books are kind of neat.  Then they start
to devolve in the ways others describe.  Toward the end they begin to pick
up again in the sense that plot begins to appear again between the sex and
violence.  Note that this happens by way of making the books longer rather
than eliminating any of the previous content.

There are some strangely endearing qualities to these books.  They are a
good example of world building.  Background material is extensive and
sometimes even pushes out lengthy sexist speeches in order to be sure that
one knows how to make a saddle from scratch out of indigenous materials.
They are a lousy example of world building.  The planetary cultures are all
obvious copies of Earth cultures.  Remember the Battlestar Galactica
episodes where one of the Colonial warriors wearing a white hat has a
showdown with a Cylon outside a saloon with a swinging door?  Gor manages
to swipe Rome, Scandinavia, North America, the Inuit, and equatorial Africa
among others.

The hero always encounters different incaranations of the same character.
He is completely mad, pretends to be an ignorant barbarian, but in fact
studied swordsmanship and what have you at the center of civilization
before going back to being a barbarian.  He is also incidentally the key to
unlocking whatever quest our hero has embarked upon.  All excursions into
the rip-off cultures tend to start with encounters with this fellow.

We have incredible vanishing technology.  Space aliens govern the planet
and prohibit technology of a destructive sort beyond swords and spears.
Except for the enormous cattle prods that are used to control giant
predatory saddle-birds.  These can deliver tremendous shocks to things
slightly smaller than 10 ft long falcons but the aliens don't seem to mind.
All this alternate but non-violent technology seems to get rarer as the
author realizes that technology is technology.

Finally the premise of the books is cute.  Gor is a planet sharing Earth's
orbit opposite the sun.  Space aliens dragged it there and swiped people
and other creatures from it to populate it.  Presumably this is to cover
the fact that all the indigenous civilizations are too familiar.  We can't
find it because any race capable of placing a planet in this orbit has the
technology to hide it from space probes and so forth.  Apparently Gor's
effect on other planetary orbits is non-existent.  The book series is
narrated by various people and sent to Earth as fiction by the nice aliens
to prepare people for life on Gor (hence pages of instructions on saddle
making).  Everything is going to Hell because the nice aliens are on the
run from Kzin (who breed sort of like puppeteers) who live in Cylon base
stars.  The aliens are swiping people from Earth to sell into slavery on
Gor to finance covert operations whose purpose is impossible to divine as
the Kzin are mostly bent on killing the nice aliens.  Incidentally, every
one of the kidnapped individuals on Earth seems to have read the entire
series to date.  It must be a runaway best-seller on Earth.  (Actually the
first few were weren't they?  My memory of 1967 is non-existent by
circumstances of birth.)

It isn't literature.  It isn't even particularly good.  But it can be fun.
It helps to read them during adolecence I suppose, normal or prolonged :-)

As for availability, most chain book stores have at least part of the
series.  Some have just the Del-Rey (1-7) and others just the Daw.
(8-20something).  It's that big mass of yellow and or/white spines between
Niven and Pournelle that everyone with any sense has learned to block out.
Every now and then I pop one open and look at the printing info.  They are
still being churned out and book 1 is in something like the 27th printing.

Last year someone posted something about a segment of fandom that had
written an operetta based on Gor and Darkover called Free Amazons of Gor.
I seem to recall the post came out near enough to April 1 that I paid it no
mind but later I seem to recall seing other references to the alleged
event.  Does anyone know if this ever happened?

Mike Johns
[e-mail]

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Date: 9 Feb 93 19:42:58 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Phrixus)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Matador

[e-mail] writes:
>   In relation to "Voodoo," (Asian military philosophy) has anyone read
>Steve Perry's matador series?  I just got what's supposed to be the last
>book, and I'm curious to get other people's reactions.

I've got (what I think is) all of them; is the "last one" _Brother Death_?
Why do you think it's the last one?  I like his philosophy and martial
arts, though I think the Ninety-Seven Steps may be terribly unrealistic.
At least, it would take a great deal of training to turn something like
that into a real martial art.  Then again, what do I know?  I only know
one-and-a-half styles, so who am I to talk?  The books move along without
dragging, and the philosophy is neatly worked into the plots.  All in all,
good books.  They start excellent and go downhill a bit, tho...IMHO, of
course.

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Date: 9 Feb 93 20:53:54 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Deac Moo of the UGC)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Matador

[e-mail] writes:
>I've got (what I think is) all of them; is the "last one" _Brother Death_?
>Why do you think it's the last one?

Most recent? Yah.

>The books move along without dragging, and the philosophy is neatly worked
>into the plots.  All in all, good books.  They start excellent and go
>downhill a bit, tho...IMHO, of course.

The threesome beginning with _The Man who Never Missed_, _Matador_, and the
end one (name escapes me), are Most Excellent.  All the others set in that
universe, from the _97th Step_ etc., are pretty euhhhhhhh.

And if you have already read some of his spin-off/prequal books, going
through the later stuff (_Albino Knife_, _Black Sword_(?), _Brother Death_)
gets to be annoying ("Oh yes, but of course, what's his name from my
previous adventure").

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Date: 9 Feb 93 22:19:11 GMT
From: [e-mail] (John Stoffel)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Matador

[e-mail] said:
>The threesome beginning with _The Man who Never Missed_, _Matador_, and
>the end one (name escapes me), are Most Excellent.  All the others set in
>that universe, from the _97th Step_ etc., are pretty euhhhhhhh.

You're thinking of "The Machiavelli Interface", and I really think the
"97th Step" was a very good story in its own right.  It was based in the
same universe, but it had a very different focus.

> And if you have already read some of his spin-off/prequal books, going
> through the later stuff (_Albino Knife_, _Black Sword_(?),

"Black Steel", good book, but I can't say I was impressed with the ending,
although it could be said to leave an opening for a sequel of some type.

> _Brother Death_) gets to be annoying ("Oh yes, but of course, what's his
> name from my previous adventure").

"The Omega Cage" is the book that just got tied into "Brother Death" in a
big way.  I get the feeling he is working through all the characters,
trying to show how their lives went after their great fight against the
Confed.  I think "Albino Knife" was the weakest of the three follow-ons,
with "Brother Death" quite a good attempt.  I have enjoyed them all, and he
is on my to-buy list, if only because I know I'll be entertained, and these
days, some mental bubble gum is very welcome!

John Stoffel
Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Worcester, MA  01609
[e-mail]

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End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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