ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/orbital/archive/v02.n322

Internet Message Format | 2009-11-30 | 39.9 KB

From: [e-mail] (orbital-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: orbital-digest V2 #322
Reply-To: orbital-digest
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk
X-NoArchive: yes


orbital-digest        Saturday, April 15 2000        Volume 02 : Number 322




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:50:04 +0100
From: "Price, Steve A" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (orbital) wtf ?

Deekay wrote
>Yet another thing is that promo items and touring also earns money!
>Like we read in the article that someone posted earlier, it's not
>enough to ONLY live off, but it also pays and adds into the OPPOSITE
>direction!

Disagree with the above. I know for a fact the London Records and Orbital
dont make a good profit on any tour. They ensure the audience has audio and
visual delight at the gigs and that doesnt come cheap!
Promos are given away to promote the music - no profit on promos.
Deekay - Is this a guessing game or what ?

Steve LOOPZ Price
Orbital Zine
www.loopz.co.uk


# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:05:48 -0400
From: "Shannon K. Campbell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (orbital) Beach for sale!

Hey kids,

Anyone need The Beach single; It';s on sale for $9.99 at CDNow
[not great but I paid $13.00 for it at the local disc shop]

Plus they're having 20% off selected imports too

Here ya go:

Orbital/Angelo Badalamenti: Beached

http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=125809598/pagename=/MN/promo.import/import.html/pagenum=5

Shannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn


# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:14:54 -0700
From: Kurt Foy Booker <[e-mail]>
Subject: (orbital) Re: (ot) Addendum to the mp3 thing..

I apologize for clogging up the list with off topic stuff... I wish I were
talking about a new orbital release instead!  But the replies from deekay
and Brendan Byrd about label costs as the reason for an artist receiving a
small cut... they were just so "wrong" at every step, every word...  I got
the strong impression that neither of you is very familiar with the actual
music industry.  Dance/Electronica music itself you both seem to very
knowledgeable about.  But the mechanics of the industry, I think you are
lacking in... these bits here:

>> Producer
>
>What's a "producer"?  The band "produces" the damn music.
>
>> Engineer
>
>What's an "engineer"?  If you mean "mixer", that's usually a part of the
>band.

That pretty much destroyed any further arguments you had, Brendan, most of
which were almost as ignorant...  I hope the rest of the list knows what a
"producer" and "engineer" are.  I do realize that many electronica acts
produce themselves, and that is why you asked those questions... but not
many electronica acts sell 500,000 titles (and if you guys come back to me
with a list of even 10 titles that have, that is still "not many" - right?)


From deekay:
>Another question would be if you really NEED all of the above
>mentioned, but that's another topic..

We were discussing a platinum selling record.  Please name some titles that
have gone platinum without benefit of a strong label and promotional work
behind them  (I'll grant them the benefit of one manager and one lawyer) to
get those sales.  I would want 20+ examples, please.

Or... name something on that list that was not used by Orbital in the last
year.


From deekay:
>Yeah, sure these factors also account, but hell, i don't quite think
>all of this costs $7.360.000! >:-) Not even CLOSE!..
>Obviously the artists are the ones making the least money off this!
>And that's TOTALLY out of place!

Do you think all of the other individuals I mention - producer, engineer,
designers, marketers, promoters - do not deserve to make any money at all?
And do you think they all make more money than the artist?  And even if
they did, do you think they enjoy their lifestyle working 9-5, behind a
desk, over a life as a pop star?  Money isn't quite everything my friends.

And haven't these behind-the-scene individuals worked hard all their lives
perfecting their careers just like the artist?  A top notch producer, let's
use Flood as an example, probably asks for $1,000,000+ to produce a title
now.  PlUS a cut of the sales.  Any struggling up and coming band would
sell would mother to get Flood as a producer, because they know it means
instant stardom.  But Flood, just like our platinum selling artist, did not
make the big bucks with his first few successes... it was only later, after
a proven track record that the money started rolling in.



>Yet another thing is that promo items and touring also earns money!
>Like we read in the article that someone posted earlier, it's not
>enough to ONLY live off, but it also pays and adds into the OPPOSITE
>direction!

But how do you pay for the promo items and touring in the first place?
Does the  band charge the fees for the cross country tour on their mom's
credit card?  Do you think mom's credit card has enough limit to pay for
the venue rental fees, promoter fees, marketing costs, roadies, stage
equipment, soundman, etc?

You guys are really young aren't you?  Don't you know that most businesses
lose money their first year(s), because of startup costs, investment costs,
and only after several years of success do profits start to roll in?

It's the music "industry".  A up and coming band is just like an up and
coming website, or any other startup business.  Do you think Jeff Bezos was
a billionaire the first year Amazon sold books?  And did he put all his own
money into the venture?  And did he do all of the programming, marketing,
administration himself?  I don't think so....


From Brendan:
>The problem is that is a platinum record.  They worked damn hard on that
>one and the odds are they won't do something like that again.  IOW, less
>money.  Less money than the measley $140,000/year he got from one of the
>highest ratings you can get in music.  Let's compare:
>
>$5+ million a year - Salary for a high-ranking sports star
>$1-2 million per movie - Salary for a high-ranking actor/actress
>$2 million a year - Salary for a high class lawyer
>$200,000+ a year - Salary for a hooker that charges $2000 and and fucks

We were discussing profits from the FIRST platinum selling title for an
artist.  The blessed individuals who make the "high ranking" salaries did
not do so with their first appearance on a tv sitcom, or even their first
smash hit movie.  Even the hooker did noy get $2000 the first time her
cherry was popped.  It was only after replicating their success over and
over again that they are able to keep raising their rates.  Julia Roberts
probably made only about $140,000 for Pretty Woman.  It was only after
several big hit movies that she could command higher salaries.  It was only
after Thriller that Michael Jackson was able to get the highest royalty
rate in the industry (I think it was $2.00 per CD sold). So again your
argument is worthless, Brendan.

You both basically seem to think that it can all be done by the band
itself, that they can control there own destiny, organize everything
themselves, manage all the details of all the affairs.  I admit they surely
will have much say in every matter pertaining to their career... but you
simply don't get to the top of the charts and stay there without a small
army of people helping you along the way... and guess what?  Those people
have to feed their families too!

Whew.... you guys tuckered me out!

Kurt :-)




# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:44:49 +0000
From: Brendan Byrd/SineSwiper <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (orbital) wtf ?

"Price, Steve A" wrote:
>
> Disagree with the above. I know for a fact the London Records and Orbital
> dont make a good profit on any tour. They ensure the audience has audio and
> visual delight at the gigs and that doesnt come cheap!

It's a rare behavior to have low price tickets at high quality audio/visuals.

> Promos are given away to promote the music - no profit on promos.

BS.  It's the same profit as the MP3s: people buying the music.  No, this isn't
a statistic that you can easily track, but they definately make money off of
this.  Otherwise, why the hell would they be doing it?

Also, tours tend to make lots of money from T-shirts, but it all depends on the
costs of the tour on whether they make money or not.

- --
Brendan Byrd AKA SineSwiper ([e-mail])
Computer techie, Perl hacker, and all-purpose Internet guru
Resonator Software (http://www.ResonatorSoft.com/)


# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:13:17 +0000
From: Brendan Byrd/SineSwiper <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (orbital) Re: (ot) Addendum to the mp3 thing..

Kurt Foy Booker wrote:
>
> That pretty much destroyed any further arguments you had, Brendan, most of
> which were almost as ignorant...  I hope the rest of the list knows what a
> "producer" and "engineer" are.  I do realize that many electronica acts
> produce themselves, and that is why you asked those questions... but not
> many electronica acts sell 500,000 titles (and if you guys come back to me
> with a list of even 10 titles that have, that is still "not many" - right?)

Oh, how fucking convenient!  I know what the terms mean, but I was asking the
general public what they where because they usually aren't needed to make the
music.

And I fucking appreciate the fact that you take a perfectly valid argument and
respond to the weakest link only!

> We were discussing a platinum selling record.  Please name some titles that
> have gone platinum without benefit of a strong label and promotional work
> behind them  (I'll grant them the benefit of one manager and one lawyer) to
> get those sales.  I would want 20+ examples, please.

Why do you need 20+ examples?  Isn't one enough?  Wouldn't one show that the way
the music industry work is a fucking crock?

> Do you think all of the other individuals I mention - producer, engineer,
> designers, marketers, promoters - do not deserve to make any money at all?
> And do you think they all make more money than the artist?  And even if
> they did, do you think they enjoy their lifestyle working 9-5, behind a
> desk, over a life as a pop star?  Money isn't quite everything my friends.

This is where my comparision to other entertainment catagories would have worked
here, but you've cut that part out, didn't you?

> And haven't these behind-the-scene individuals worked hard all their lives
> perfecting their careers just like the artist?  A top notch producer, let's
> use Flood as an example, probably asks for $1,000,000+ to produce a title
> now.  PlUS a cut of the sales.  Any struggling up and coming band would
> sell would mother to get Flood as a producer, because they know it means
> instant stardom.  But Flood, just like our platinum selling artist, did not
> make the big bucks with his first few successes... it was only later, after
> a proven track record that the money started rolling in.

Ha!  These are numbers that you pull outta of your ass!  I know for a fact that
Flood doesn't ask for a cool million because he's got clients and no musician
has that kind of money.

> But how do you pay for the promo items and touring in the first place?
> Does the  band charge the fees for the cross country tour on their mom's
> credit card?  Do you think mom's credit card has enough limit to pay for
> the venue rental fees, promoter fees, marketing costs, roadies, stage
> equipment, soundman, etc?

Yeah, the label.  So what?  Is that help worth 95%?  No.

> You guys are really young aren't you?  Don't you know that most businesses
> lose money their first year(s), because of startup costs, investment costs,
> and only after several years of success do profits start to roll in?
>
> It's the music "industry".  A up and coming band is just like an up and
> coming website, or any other startup business.  Do you think Jeff Bezos was
> a billionaire the first year Amazon sold books?  And did he put all his own
> money into the venture?  And did he do all of the programming, marketing,
> administration himself?  I don't think so....

I think you're missing the point.  Even after the musicians have established a
career for themselves, they STILL don't get shit for money.  The fact that the
term "selling out" exists implies that even the big guys with long-standing
career still don't make enough money.  Steve, do you know how much of a cut
Orbital, a group now working on their sixth album, get from their label?

> We were discussing profits from the FIRST platinum selling title for an
> artist.  The blessed individuals who make the "high ranking" salaries did
> not do so with their first appearance on a tv sitcom, or even their first
> smash hit movie.  Even the hooker did noy get $2000 the first time her
> cherry was popped.  It was only after replicating their success over and
> over again that they are able to keep raising their rates.  Julia Roberts
> probably made only about $140,000 for Pretty Woman.  It was only after
> several big hit movies that she could command higher salaries.  It was only
> after Thriller that Michael Jackson was able to get the highest royalty
> rate in the industry (I think it was $2.00 per CD sold). So again your
> argument is worthless, Brendan.

Hmmm...let's take a slip that said and use it against you: the highest royalty
rate in the industry is $2 per CD.  That would be $15 / $2.  Michael Jackson,
the King of Pop, who has sold well over a million albums, gets less than 15% off
his albums.  Computer companies, especially good ones with proven track records
(like Blizzard or id Software), get at least 30-40% from their games.  So, from
a two-million CD sale of records (double-platinum, I think) from the King of Pop
only gets $266 thousand dollars.  He probably spent about two years on such an
album, and he doesn't even get a half-million dollars from a CD that sold TWO
MILLION COPIES?!

BTW, $140,000 is extremely rich in musician standards.

> You both basically seem to think that it can all be done by the band
> itself, that they can control there own destiny, organize everything
> themselves, manage all the details of all the affairs.  I admit they surely
> will have much say in every matter pertaining to their career... but you
> simply don't get to the top of the charts and stay there without a small
> army of people helping you along the way... and guess what?  Those people
> have to feed their families too!

You don't seem to understand that artists, no matter how small they are, don't
deserve 5%.  THEY need to feed their families, too!  You cut out that part where
I showed just how little they make.

Also notice how the music industry is the only one that gets bitched at for the
pissass change musicians make.  Nobody bitchs about actors/actresses getting
paid too little.  Nobody bitchs about sports players getting paid too little.
Only the musicians.

- --
Brendan Byrd AKA SineSwiper ([e-mail])
Computer techie, Perl hacker, and all-purpose Internet guru
Resonator Software (http://www.ResonatorSoft.com/)


# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:19:25 MDT
From: "Mike Dunn" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (orbital) Hello All!

Hello, as a new member of this mailing list, I would like to introduce
myself. I am a huge orbital fan, and also have my own electronic music
project called ShoestringCowboy. My site if anyone wants to check it out is
www.mp3.com/ShoestringCowboy
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 22:17:43 +0000
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (orbital) Re: (ot) Addendum to the mp3 thing..

> I apologize for clogging up the list with off topic stuff... I wish I were
> talking about a new orbital release instead!  But the replies from deekay
> and Brendan Byrd about label costs as the reason for an artist receiving a
> small cut... they were just so "wrong" at every step, every word...

At EVERY word?? Jeez, thanks! >:-( That makes ME the asshole in this,
right? The majors are the good guys, yeah!

> I got
> the strong impression that neither of you is very familiar with the actual
> music industry.

Like said, I have a friend who runs a small indy hiphop label, and i
talked to him often enough about the industry.. he also gave me the
figures, remember?.. Plus i talk to some other musicians, some of
whom have had some insight in the music industry... that's enough
knowledge to form an opinion! Strangely enough (to get back to the
topic!) all of them see mp3 as the chance to get rid of the old
rotten structures and the greedy "industry"...


> >From deekay:
> >Another question would be if you really NEED all of the above
> >mentioned, but that's another topic..
>
> We were discussing a platinum selling record.  Please name some titles that
> have gone platinum without benefit of a strong label and promotional work
> behind them  (I'll grant them the benefit of one manager and one lawyer) to
> get those sales.  I would want 20+ examples, please.
>
> Or... name something on that list that was not used by Orbital in the last
> year.
>
>
> >From deekay:
> >Yeah, sure these factors also account, but hell, i don't quite think
> >all of this costs $7.360.000! >:-) Not even CLOSE!..
> >Obviously the artists are the ones making the least money off this!
> >And that's TOTALLY out of place!
>
> Do you think all of the other individuals I mention - producer, engineer,
> designers, marketers, promoters - do not deserve to make any money at all?

I forgot the word, but the reasoning you're using is such standard
practice in unfair discussion that there's actually a word for it! 8)
"I think people have to pay too much in taxes!" - "So you're saying
the government should ABOLISH taxes?"
Read again what i said: "Obviously the artists are the ones making
the least money off this! And that's TOTALLY out of place!"
Note: I did *not* say they should be getting ALL the money (which
would mean what you were saying, that all the rest gets NONE at all!)
I said that THEY are the ones that all the others live off, and
so that they should definately be the ones that get the largest part
of the money!! If i found a company, find investors, a loan at the
bank, take all the risks, and i hire people that work for me, do i
not deserve to make the most money of them all since *I* was the one
that enabled them to earn their salary in the first place???
You know why it's not like that? Because the record companies don't
work for the musicians but the musicians work for the record
company!! And THAT sucks! I'm not buying an album because it says
Sony Music on there but because it's from my favourite band!!
I don't buy a CD for its cover either, and there are gazillions of
coverdesigners out there but only ONE Orbital! 8)

> And do you think they all make more money than the artist?

Yes. The record company bosses, managers etc. SURE do!
The coverdesigners etc. ofcourse just get their usual salaries!

> And even if
> they did, do you think they enjoy their lifestyle working 9-5, behind a
> desk, over a life as a pop star?  Money isn't quite everything my friends.
>

Well, this reasoning seems kinda strange to me.. "You signed the
contract. Well, off you go, no more 9-5 work for you, have fun living
the life of a popstar! Here's some cocaine for your entertainment!"
..i guess LOTS of musicians would rather choose NOT to be whores of
the record company if they had the chance! >:-)

> And haven't these behind-the-scene individuals worked hard all their lives
> perfecting their careers just like the artist?  A top notch producer, let's
> use Flood as an example, probably asks for $1,000,000+ to produce a title
> now.  PlUS a cut of the sales.  Any struggling up and coming band would
> sell would mother to get Flood as a producer, because they know it means
> instant stardom.

And THIS fact is only due to what factors? 8) Yes, you got it right,
MARKETING, shitty POP music and the majors controlling everything and
fulfilling "market needs"!.. You can't justify the majors by saying
"the market" (=the majors) works like that!.

> But Flood, just like our platinum selling artist, did not
> make the big bucks with his first few successes... it was only later, after
> a proven track record that the money started rolling in.
>

Yeah, a track record WITHIN the industry! And what's that worth when
the whole industry sucks? 8) Orbital don't have a "track record" in
popular terms.. still they're a great band and pretty successful
without marketing, so you don't NEED some Flood pimp to be successful
(WITHIN the music industry! >:-)

>
>
> >Yet another thing is that promo items and touring also earns money!
> >Like we read in the article that someone posted earlier, it's not
> >enough to ONLY live off, but it also pays and adds into the OPPOSITE
> >direction!
>
> But how do you pay for the promo items and touring in the first place?
> Does the  band charge the fees for the cross country tour on their mom's
> credit card?  Do you think mom's credit card has enough limit to pay for
> the venue rental fees, promoter fees, marketing costs, roadies, stage
> equipment, soundman, etc?
>

When did i ever say the bands should NOT be signing with someone???
This is your "inverted binary (=black/white) rhethorical
question"-reasoning again! Again: I said the BANDS should be the
kings cause THEY deserve it, not all the fucking other people that
are just living off them!!

> You guys are really young aren't you?

Well thanks, can't you directly say: "You naive morons, grow up" if
that's what you mean? I gotta say if you're the old one (I'm 24)  in
this then your reasoning is pretty weak and unfair for someone "old
and experienced"!

> Don't you know that most businesses
> lose money their first year(s), because of startup costs, investment costs,
> and only after several years of success do profits start to roll in?
>
Yeah, but does the bank who gave me the money a) tell me how to
run my business and b) make 95% of all the earnings??
I don't fucking think so, you pay some interest or have an investor
who gave you the money beforehand, and now gets a part of the
earnings, but you're NEVER even close to making only 5% off all the
margins if it was YOU who founded the company!!

> It's the music "industry".  A up and coming band is just like an up and
> coming website, or any other startup business.  Do you think Jeff Bezos was
> a billionaire the first year Amazon sold books?  And did he put all his own
> money into the venture?  And did he do all of the programming, marketing,
> administration himself?  I don't think so....
>

...and do you think he EVER made less money than all of the people
working for him? 8) I don't think so, nowadays for sure and prolly
even in startup times!..
And i guess Jeff Bezos has *much* say in the road amazon should be
taking! 8) The musician's generally don't! >:-(

And: That aside "Music Industry" is like "Microsoft Works" an
Oxymoron! >:-) I know it's a valid term, but i'd just like all of you
sit back for a minute and picture something as creative, uplifting
and beautiful as music with the steely cold dirty approach of an
industry! 8)

> You both basically seem to think that it can all be done by the band
> itself, that they can control there own destiny, organize everything
> themselves, manage all the details of all the affairs.

Again: Please quote me where i said that!.. WHEN did i say they
shouldn't get someone to market them or pay money in advance??

> I admit they surely
> will have much say in every matter pertaining to their career... but you
> simply don't get to the top of the charts and stay there without a small
> army of people helping you along the way...

*HELPING* yes, ROBBING no!!
Question: do we really NEED Charts??? And should it be the aim of a
musician to get there???
I see that today with the current structures established there's the
need for marketing, but this thinking that MUSIC needs MARKETING just
seems hella wrong!
By the way: Who goes to the top and stays there?? 8) Nobody!..
There's no more band like the Beatles, Queen or Genesis that would
CONSTANTLY be in the charts over a period of several years!..
Usually people go to the top, stay there for mostly ONE song (two or
maximum three!) and then they're gone forever.. Why is that? Because
record companies FULLFILL and GENERATE market needs, they either
stuff bands in some niche in which they'd see a marketing need to be
satisfied or completely generate artificial projects to satisfy the
need they often generate themselves together with MTV and the radio
whores! And since it's an *industry* it's only the margin that
counts, and you can make the best margin if you personally make sure
that people will buy it ( a) by "marketing", that means treating the
world as cattle by means of psycho-BS and spindoctoring and b) by
tailoring some artificial band to satisfy the 'popular demand' to the
maximum!).. What's more is that it's more profitable to sign a new
artist once with a 5% cut (and then have him (forced by the
contract!) produce three albums after his one-hit-wonder that will
NEVER be marketed but will be a good musical resource for the label's
artificial projects), than to continue marketing the same people,
cause they'd want a new contract with a higher cut if they're REALLY
popular over a certain period plus the artists would become more
powerful than the record companies would like them to be, since they
are popular now and could threaten to go to a different label!


DeeKay


# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:48:46 +0000
From: Brendan Byrd/SineSwiper <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (orbital) Re: (ot) Addendum to the mp3 thing..

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I forgot the word, but the reasoning you're using is such standard
> practice in unfair discussion that there's actually a word for it! 8)
> "I think people have to pay too much in taxes!" - "So you're saying
> the government should ABOLISH taxes?"
>
> When did i ever say the bands should NOT be signing with someone???
> This is your "inverted binary (=black/white) rhethorical
> question"-reasoning again! Again: I said the BANDS should be the
> kings cause THEY deserve it, not all the fucking other people that
> are just living off them!!

It's called "Lunatic Fringe" and it's discussed in the Conversational Terrorism
page here:

http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html

- --
Brendan Byrd AKA SineSwiper ([e-mail])
Computer techie, Perl hacker, and all-purpose Internet guru
Resonator Software (http://www.ResonatorSoft.com/)


# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:29:06 +0000
From: Mark S-D <[e-mail]>
Subject: (orbital) Re: Addendum to the mp3 thing..

<unlurk>

I have a few questions about these things I'd like to know:

The music industry is a business but that doesn't mean that the millions
that are spent on just one video (for example) couldn't be better spent. I
don't think indulging in as many mp3's as you can of your favourite artists
does much to help this situation mind you ! Wouldn't it be better to stand
on the street corner in the rain selling pirated Westlife cd's ? Or, how
about posting the managing director of Sony a soggy dog shit wrapped in
tinsel ! How many hours and how many tinsel wrapped shits do you think it
would take before either I get arrested - or, he/she gets the message ?

Most of us know greed exploits and companys who mostly look after
shareholders is giving in to that. I see them putting on a brave
advertising face as they pretend they care about what they are doing ! But
why don't businesses care less about money and more about what they are
doing ? - They'd end up richer and need less money anyway because people
wouldn't want it so much ! Even the shareholders would be happy !

It's the personal responsibility of us not to buy products if that product
is a 'bad thing' or whatever - but also it's in the interests of those
companys to keep that information from us - we all must be in the dark
about so many things - how is it even possible for us to make good
decisions about what we do..forget about the 14 year old who has just
committed the ultimate sin by liking what's fed to them on the radio ! So
why is there a division between personal responsibility on the individual
level and at the level of the corporation ? And on what is that decision
based ?

I think more people are choosing to believe that numbers should be slaves
to us and not the other way around, I believe it's happening slowly for
many reasons, partly due to the Internet ( take a look sometime:
http://www.cluetrain.com/ ).

Anyway, any thoughts would be welcome...</unlurk>

Cheers,

- --
- -- Mark S-D

'And it might begin to reach you, why we give a damn...'



# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:36:44 +0000
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (orbital) Re: Addendum to the mp3 thing..

> I think more people are choosing to believe that numbers should be slaves
> to us and not the other way around, I believe it's happening slowly for
> many reasons, partly due to the Internet ( take a look sometime:
> http://www.cluetrain.com/ ).
>
> Anyway, any thoughts would be welcome...</unlurk>
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> -- Mark S-D

Mark, first thanks for this very interesting post...

I totally share your point of view.. Let me tell you about the
situation here in germany, atleast in my direct vicinity:
during the eighties and till the mid-nineties if someone was boasting
about how much money he makes and how succesful he is, he would be
generally frowned upon and considered an asshole.. Ofcourse there
were also the yuppies but the *general* idea was that egoism and
greed were deifnately NOTadmirable character-traits..
In the mid-nineties this slowly changed.. i always like to pinpoint
the going-down of communism and the soviet union as the reason for
this. The theory is that there's always a Yin to the Yang, a male to
the female, good/evil and so on, so there's a balance. This balance
in the world is no more there and so american thinking and capitalism
were free to flourish, atleast here in germany! The big stock-boom
started with the emission of the Telekom, germany's TelCo.. Cellulars
became popular like fuck and suddenly it was cool to gamble with
stocks and generally be very important with a cellphone.. Brand
clothing and other superficial shit suddenly were THE hype!..
So nowadays you can tell others how much money you just made in
stocks and what status symbols you just purchased and NOBODY will
frown at you anymore! To the contrary, most people will
RESPECT you for that!
Accordingly, the economy became the new religion.. Gerhard Schroeder
was elected chancellor cause he's very close to the bosses and the
economy itself, it seems for the past 3 years the country's only
worry is about the economy. Don't get any false ideas: Germany's
economy hasn't been "bad" for several decades! 8)
I consider myself "radical ethical"...  That means, if someone is or
acts unethical it just pisses me off and i get pretty mad.. I'm not
one of those peace-&-love-let's-talk-about-it people! Don't get me
wrong, i wouldn't say i'm perfect but i pay great attention to show
integrity in what i do and act largely following the categorical
imperative. The point that REALLY fuckin pisses me off is when people
smile at me amused when i say that something is unethical and that
something should be boycotted or fought! The general idea is that
there's no use trying to change the world, and since the world is led
by money there's no use fighting it..
I think greed, capitalism and egoism should be fought.. seeing things
like the demonstrations in Seattle and Washington lately (also
movements like PLUR! 8) gives me hope, and i just hope the current
NASDAQ-disaster is the really big one i've hoped for for a year now!
The hippies were right, you know! They only took too many drugs and
lived in their own dream world instead of reality, that was their
mistake!
There's the concept of the responsibility-circles.. It says that you
feel most responsibility for yourself, the second-most for your
family, the third-most for your friends, then stuff like community,
city, nation, world.. With every wider circle you feel less
responsibility, though you still feel like part of it somehow. If you
look at the world today, these circles grow smaller and smaller,
people feel less and less responsibility for anything but
themselves!
I dunno about you guys and girls, but i sure as hell don't want to
live in a world like that! I talked to a russian friend of mine
(who's been through QUITE some shit in his life!) about ethics, and
talking to him i realized that ethics is something that you can just
afford when you are not struggling for existance, however i think
none of us are, so we should fucking USE the opportunity and try to
make the world a better place!
There's this german hiphop group, Die Fantastischen Vier, and they
said once: "If everybody said: "Hey! I'm gonna make the world a
better place" we would have already done it!" and there's quite some
truth in that!
I want to see a MOVEMENT!... Not just some tripping Techno-Thing
that's all about party but a real movement with ideals,
demonstrations and ethics, with influence and a good view of reality,
agressive if necessary... The internet has spawned quite a few things
like this, like instant petitions to protest against certain things,
but it's all too unorganized! It's just that with all the current
Business and eCommerce-Hype i see the free internet going down pretty
soon if we don't act! Like NOT buying online if it's not absolutely
necessary! If they don't sell over the net, they'll soon lose
interest!
The Opensource Thing is also a move into the right direction, kinda
like "Hippies with a clue"! 8)
Egoism, "Fakism", superficiality, hipocrisy... these are not my
virtues for sure! And since most of the things i encounter each day
have atleast ONE of the aforementioned characteristics, you can guess
that i'm pretty pissed off!
For example there's this ad on TV that generously tells me what "my
generation" is: "We found businesses and we become entrepreneurs. I
see everybody running around with cellphones.." - I DON'T FUCKING
THINK SO!!
The government lies to you, the companies lie to you and spindoctor
you with marketing! If the information age is all about
superficiality, egoism and hipocrisy i'd rather go back, cause i
fucking don't think this is so very great!

Isn't it a shit world we live in?
..and the basic problem of almost everything is that there are WAY
too many people on the globe!

Pissed and pretty depressed,

DeeKay

P.S.: Thanks for reading this far! 8)


# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:52:46 GMT
From: "Mr. Telex" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (orbital) OT : Promos & The Music Biz

>>BS .....

Hey Brendan , sorry you tell you that you're wrong again (don't you just
hate that ?) , but the gentleman (sorry I forgot your name, sir) was right.

Artists do not get paid for promo copies of anything. This includes stuff
given to DJ's, radio stations, and albums that are sold through record clubs
(ex: Columbia House, BMG Direct).

Just read any of the extensive books on the industry that are out there.

Here are some good titles which are sitting in my bookcase :

1) "Confessions Of A Record Producer" by Moses Avalon

2) "The Music Business (Explained In Plain English)" by David Naggar, Esq. &
Jeffrey D. Brandstetter, Esq.

3) "How To Make And Sell Your Own Recording" by Diane Sward Rappaport

4) "The Musician's Guide To Selling Your Own CD's And Cassettes" by Jana
Stanfield

5) "Songwriter's Market (1994 Edition)" by Cindy Laufenberg

6) "This Business Of Music (6th Edition)" by Shemel Krasilovsky

7) "The Music Business Handbook And Career Guide" by David Baskerville,
Ph.D.


- - Josh  :-)

NP : Tosca - Honey
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:14:01 +0000
From: Brendan Byrd/SineSwiper <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (orbital) OT : Promos & The Music Biz

"Mr. Telex" wrote:
>
> >>BS .....
>
> Hey Brendan , sorry you tell you that you're wrong again (don't you just
> hate that ?) , but the gentleman (sorry I forgot your name, sir) was right.
>
> Artists do not get paid for promo copies of anything. This includes stuff
> given to DJ's, radio stations, and albums that are sold through record clubs
> (ex: Columbia House, BMG Direct).

Well, then.  We might as well fire every marketing person out there and stop
making commericials because they aren't make us any money.

Special hint: Use your brain next time...

- --
Brendan Byrd AKA SineSwiper ([e-mail])
Computer techie, Perl hacker, and all-purpose Internet guru
Resonator Software (http://www.ResonatorSoft.com/)


# Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list?
# Send the command "info orbital" to [e-mail].
# To post, email [e-mail]; replies go to original sender.
# Orbital discography: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo-bin/discogs?orbital

------------------------------

End of orbital-digest V2 #322
*****************************