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$Unique_ID{bob01228} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 27, 1973. (6:04pm - 6:48pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres peterson dean president that's get now bittman ziegler} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 27, 1973. (6:04pm - 6:48pm) Meeting: President Nixon, Henry Petersen and Ron Ziegler, Oval Office Pres. Nixon: Come in. As, like all things, some substance, some falsity. H. Peterson: Ah. Last Monday Charlie Shaffer was in the office, and a continuation of the negotiations. Charlie Shaffer is the lawyer. Charlie is a very bright, able bombastic fellow. And he was carrying on as if we're making a summation in a case. And he said - that - ah he was threatening, "We will bring the President in - not this case but in other things" What "other things" are we don't know what in the hell they are talking about. Pres. Nixon: Don't worry. H. Peterson: "In other areas," more specifically is the word he used. That they regarded - and didn't consider of importance they regarded as the elaboration of his earlier threat. You know, "We'll try this Administration - Nixon - what have you, what have you." There's a new conversation by them with Dean since the Sunday we first met (unintelligible) Whatever is said is through Shaffer the lawyer. Pres. Nixon: What else do you have besides that? H. Peterson: Well, let's see. They did say that at a later date in the proceedings that Dean went to the President, and I assume that's the February or March or whatever that date was. But that's in the course of your trying to find out. Ah, today they were after the Cubans and the receipt of the money which they confirmed. Dorothy Hunt on being the intermediary that passed it through. They are going to have Butterfield in in a few minutes. Pres. Nixon: What I am getting at, Henry, about this threat that - H. Peterson: There's no more on that other than I've just told you. Pres. Nixon: Why in the hell can't we stop though - the paper that Hersh - to think that to bring the President with a thing like that. (expletive removed), you know. Understand. Let me say this. If it were in with the Grand Jury I want to know that too. H. Peterson: All right. Well - Pres. Nixon: (expletive removed). You've got to believe me. I am after the truth, even if it hurts me. But believe me, it won't. H. Peterson: I understand that, you see. But, you know - Pres. Nixon: Just like it won't hurt you. We are doing our job. And somebody was in here the other day and they were saying, well, Dean is going to blackmail you because of something you're supposed to have told me. And I said, (expletive removed) I said, you have a right to tell me what was going on. H. Peterson: The only thing I think is that it's either Dean or SChaffer or this McCandless. Now, Shaffer says that it's McCandless that's leaking this stuff to the press. Pres. Nixon: Who is McCandless? H. Peterson: McCandless is another lawyer that Dean has tainted. Pres. Nixon: He's leaking to the press that they are going to try the President, huh? (unintelligible) H. Peterson: Other areas, but what those areas are, we don't know. Now, Silbert said, "Stop." So, he didn't let them go on. He said, "why get into that?" Ah Pres. Nixon: It's not this case. Go ahead. (unintelligible) H. Peterson: Well, I told those fellows, look. I told those fellows this. I know you can't believe these reporters all the time. He's had one or preferably two weeks - Pres. Nixon: I'm glad we have that then. When I heard that, I thought that Dean must be out of his damned mind or something. The man is not, sh - I don't know. Going to have Butterfield in? Good. H. Peterson: Well, that's in connection with the $350,000. Now, we are going to have Jack Caulfield in to the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: That's on, because he worked on H. Peterson: He set up the intermediaries that were being used as couriers to transfer money either to or from LaRue Pres. Nixon: Oh, he did? Caulfield, eh. What would be the liability of a man like that? Would he be a conspirator? H. Peterson: If it's done with knowledge - if it's done with knowledge Pres. Nixon: Yeah, with knowledge. But also, there is a certain - it has to be willful or - there are two statutes - H. Peterson: When you talk about conspiracy, you are impugning knowledge, and you impugn the knowledge of the facts unless there's specific evidence of the Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) I just don't want to see guys get hurt that didn't know what the hell they were doing. H. Peterson: And we don't want to either. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) H. Peterson: But we are looking for witnesses, to be perfectly honest. Pres. Nixon: Sure. H. Peterson: Strachan, they are still negotiating with him on having flunked the lie detector test. Pres. Nixon: Maybe the best thing to do is to plead guilty to the prosecutor - plead guilty? H. Peterson: Well, you know, ah - Pres. Nixon: What? H. Peterson: Basically, I mean, what we are telling Strachan is that he has got to make the choice whether he wants to be a witness or a defendant. "You can just hang tough, and you can be technically be a witness." ------------------------- Ziegler enters ------------------------- Pres. Nixon: That story, according to Henry Petersen - he just called the U. S. Attorney's office. It is totally false story. Needs to be totally knocked down. R. Ziegler: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: Read me exactly what you can recall the U. S. Attorney - H. Peterson: Called U. S. Attorney and said that in the past an attorney representing John Dean was in his office and indicated that if we insisted on Dean, that they would be tying in the President, not in the Watergate, but in other areas. Pres. Nixon: That's not Watergate, but in other areas. H. Peterson: Whatever that means. Pres. Nixon: Well, that's fine. Just let them tie us in. H. Peterson: Now, to put that in context, they had previously said that if we insisted on trying Dean and not Ehrlichman and Haldeman that they would be "trying this Administration," the President and what have you. Pres. Nixon: So basically that's the game they are playing. R. Ziegler: I can understand how - you indicated that their attorney, the other day, said they would resist in tying in - did you say? In not the Watergate, but - H. Peterson: They would be tying in the President. I mean it was an emotional statement. Pres. Nixon: Emotion at tying in the President, not in Watergate but in other things. Right. H. Peterson: Not in the Watergate, but in other things. Whatever they would be Pres. Nixon: When was this? H. Peterson: Monday. Monday of this week. Pres. Nixon: Monday of this week. H. Peterson: Monday of this week. Pres. Nixon: Well, I think this - I think this thing we just hit back on. H. Peterson: Well, that's the only thing. And I don't know that. And they had no idea. Pres. Nixon: But Dean gave them H. Peterson: What? Pres. Nixon: But Dean give them H. Peterson: Oh, yes, but, but - Pres. Nixon: That basically ties in the White House. H. Peterson: That was one of the reasons that was so important to disclose that because they could have hung that over our heads, you see and - Pres. Nixon: You remember my call from Camp David. I said, "Don't go into the national security stuff." I didn't mean - H. Peterson: Oh, I understand. Pres. Nixon: 'cause I remember I think we discussed that silly damned thing. I had heard about it, just heard about. You told me that. That's it, you told me. Pres. Nixon: What (expletive removed) did they break into a psychiatrist's office for? I couldn't believe it. R. Ziegler: I think what all of this is - Pres. Nixon: What do you think it is? R. Ziegler: I think it's the attorney Pres. Nixon: I think he is bargaining for Dean. R. Ziegler: I had occasion to talk to Dean a few minutes ago, but a call - Pres. Nixon: You did? R. Ziegler: He is a very good friend of mine. Pres. Nixon: Well, tell us what you - now understand we have to watch how we handle him now, because we've got R. Ziegler: It was a very good conversation. He said, "Ron, I am issuing no statements." Incidentally, he said, "I got a telephone call." Pres. Nixon: A telephone call from the President. You know, that shows you what a person he is. I called - you know - some nice things we do - I called six people, members of my staff. I called Ron, Henry Kissinger, Ehrlichman, and Rose, my secretary and John Dean. I just go down a list of people, and just say, "I want to wish you a Happy Easter." That's all I did. And it's all over the press! H. Peterson: Well, you know, we got a report. Again, I got it through Charlie Shaffer that he was pleased and elated and reassured. And you know, as a human being - Pres. Nixon: I don't want to hurt John Dean. Believe me - I'd like to help him. R. Ziegler: He went out of his way to make the point to me, just in this two-minute conversation, he said "I didn't make that telephone call, Ron" I don't know who may have done it cause he knows - Pres. Nixon: Oh, you did not discuss this crazy Hersh story. R. Ziegler: No Pres. Nixon: Now the problem about this Hersh story, is that if the Times comes out and runs this - R. Ziegler: Oh, no. As a matter of fact I talked to Clifton Daniels this afternoon, and he didn't raise it. Pres. Nixon: The Woodward story. Woodward also has the same story. Woodward of the Post. R. Ziegler: Woodward said that reliable sources said that someone had implicated the President in their testimony, or referred to him. Pres. Nixon: In the Dean story? R. Ziegler: No, that was Hersh. Pres. Nixon: What did Woodward say? R. Ziegler: Woodward said they had two stories; one was the fact that it was reaching a new plateau, and he was not ready to read the story because he was still working on it, and Woodward was taking the position that he was confused and needed to talk to someone to get a perception H. Peterson: They are trying people. R. Ziegler: What they are trying to do is to get a fix on what's happened over here. Pres. Nixon: OK. Take a hard line. Gergen to Woodward. Anything on that they better watch their damned cotton picking faces. Because boy, if there's one thing in this case as Henry will tell you, since March 21st when I had that conversation with Dean, I have broken my ass to try to get the facts of this case. Right? Tried to get that damn Liddy to talk. We tried to get - finally got Gray to refresh his memory. (unintelligible) We finally got - incidentally, we put Ruck in that thing rather than - I didn't think based on what you had told me earlier, we should put Feld - because there's too much (unintelligible) over there and Ruckelshaus is a perfectly trustworthy man. He'll stay 30 days - H. Peterson: I know him and I think well of him. Pres. Nixon: and for that matter, we'll have another man ready. Does that sound alright to you? I told Ruck, incidentally, that he was to cooperate with the investigation and I said, "Ruck you are to do anything that the prosecutor says to do, Henry Petersen, or the prosecutors, leave no stone unturned and I don't give a damn who it hurts. Now believe me, that's what he's been told. So you got a man there who will - H. Peterson: I know him and I think well of him, Mr. President. Pres. Nixon: Well, he's Mr. Clean, you know so you understand H. Peterson: Yes, indeed. He's quite able, he is indeed. Pres. Nixon: So there you are. You've got to knock that - rack down. If there's one thing you have got to do, you have got to maintain the Presidency out of this. I have got things to do for this country and I'm not going to have - now this is personal. I sometimes feel like I'd like to resin. Let Agnew be President for a while. He'd love it. H. Peterson: I don't even know why you want the job? Pres. Nixon: You are talking about this story - that Agnew is getting ready to resign? That's the Post also? R. Ziegler: Well, that's the Post and Times. Pres. Nixon: Post? Well, what did Agnew say? R. Ziegler: "That's ridiculous." Marsh Thompson's going to turn it off. Well, Look. Let me have Gergen call him back, and say, "He raised two points with me. Let me tell you what is going on here. What's going on here, Bob, is the President is going to get to the bottom of this. Pres. Nixon: That's right. R. Ziegler: And then have Gergen say, I have checked this at a very high level and you'd better, absolutely not even go into any emotional concerns of running a story like this. You had better just wipe it out of your mind. Because there is nothing to it. Pres. Nixon: That's right. R. Ziegler: If you say you want to be responsible and fair, "Well, you had better not go with a source that you have to speculate on. Pres. Nixon: Right. The same with the Times. R. Ziegler: The New York Times man, I'm sure. Pres. Nixon: Well, Hersh is so damn unreliable. R. Ziegler: (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: I'd call Daniels. Hersh told Bittman who told O'Brien that Dean has testified that there was a new - that the President was involved, right? R. Ziegler: Not testified, but told the prosecutor or something. Pres. Nixon: Told the prosecutor that the President was involved, right? Pres. Nixon: Let me ask Henry a question. You have Titus and those saying Dean, neither Dean or his lawyers, have said anything of that sort except this one thing. H. Peterson: They said, "tying in the President" not in the Watergate but in other areas and the prosecutor said, "Stop! We don't want to get in this. We don't want to discuss this." Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) H. Peterson: What I think is its bombast, its negotiation - it's ah - Pres. Nixon: Again make it clear that Henry's made his check. R. Ziegler: Just to put this into prospective. This is not, as I sense it, about to break in the papers. This is just tumor type. Pres. Nixon: Well, kill it. Kill it hard. R. Ziegler: Ok, sir. (Ziegler leaves) Pres. Nixon: Let me say this, let me ask you about (unintelligible). First, on Dean - I would not want to get into a position - You have told me now, "You can do what you want with Dean." You have given up. You mean, in other words, fire him, hire him, leave him, treat him like the others, wait until the Grand Jury acts, or something. You see, I have three courses: I can wait until the Grand Jury acts, I can take leaves of absence, or I can take resignations, I have three different courses on all three men. I can do different things with each one of them. Right? H. Peterson: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: These are the options, but what I will do remains to be seen. Now in Dean's ease, I do not want the impression left that - I have gone over with you before, that by saying "Don't grant immunity to a major person." That in so doing I am trying to block Dean giving evidence against Haldeman or Ehrlichman. H. Peterson: I understand that. Pres. Nixon: I have applied that to others, and I don't want to - no. Do I make myself clear? H. Peterson: Yes, let me make myself clear. Pres. Nixon: Yes. H. Peterson: I regard immunity authority under the statutes of the United States, to be my responsibility, of which I cannot divest myself. Pres. Nixon: Right. H. Peterson: And - ah - we take options, but I would have to treat this as advisory only. Pres. Nixon: Right. Well understand, I only expressed an opinion. H. Peterson: I understand. Pres. Nixon: And understand you have got to determine who is the major culprit too. H. Peterson: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: If you think Dean is an agent - Let me say. If Dean, I - I think Haldeman and Ehrlichman in the case of themselves with Dean. But my point is, you have got to - ah - I don't know what you prosecutors think, but if your prosecutors believe that they have got to give Dean immunity, in whole or in part, in order to get the damned ease, do it. I'm not - I'm not telling you what to do, but - you understand? Your decision. Now have you talked to the prosecutor about this situation? H. Peterson: They vascillated. In the first instance they, I think, felt quite strongly that Dean should be immunized, and I was resisting. And the last time we discussed it, why they had made other - Pres. Nixon: Why? Maybe because of what I said? See? I don't want - I don't want them - H. Peterson: No. I don't so, because, one, they are in a position to simply make the recommendation and let me shoulder the heavy burden. Pres. Nixon: Why do you think that they had turned around? H. Peterson: Well, I think they see the question of credibility. They have come to the recognition that if they are going to put him on the stand and he's going to have any credibility at all, he'll have most credibility if he goes in and pleads and testifies as a co-defendant against Ehrlichman and Haldeman as opposed to someone who has been given immunity and is testifying against them. Pres. Nixon: Even an old man like Wilson will tear hell out of him. H. Peterson: Well, John Wilson may be old, but he's one hell of a lawyer. Pres. Nixon: Oh, I can H. Peterson: A top-notch man - Pres. Nixon: I met him last might, I said privately and I won't again, but I was impressed with him. He is a delightful man. And I could see, I can see - I would want to be on the stand with him interrogating. H. Peterson: He's a fair - Pres. Nixon: He must be pretty good, H. Peterson: Yes, sir, he is. And did you meet Frank Strickler? Pres. Nixon: Yeah. H. Peterson: They are both delightful people. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Strickler, he just looks like sort of a big country bumpkin, but there is a sharp mind in there. H. Peterson: Very able fellow. And they are decent people to deal with - as adversaries. They are decent. They are honorable lawyers, they are a pleasure to deal with. Pres. Nixon: All right. We have got the immunity problem resolved. Do it. Dean if you need to, but boy I am telling you - there ain't going to be any blackmail. H. Peterson: Mr. President, I - Pres. Nixon: Don't let Dick Kleindienst say it. Dean ain't - "Hunt is going to blackmail you." Hunt's not going to blackmail any of us. "It is his word, basically, against yours." It's his word against mine. Now for - who is going to believe John Dean? We relied on the damned so - Dean, Dean was the one who told us throughout the summer that nobody in the White House was involved when he, himself apparently, was involved, particularly on the critical angle of subornation of perjury. That's the one that - I will never, never understand John. H. Peterson: I, I can almost quote him. He said, "Henry, God damn it, I need this information. That man has designated me to get all these facts." And he calls me in there and chews my ass off. Pres. Nixon: Do you know something? H. Peterson: And this was before the trial - Pres. Nixon: Dick Kleindienst, incidentally, Dick Kleindienst told me this last night when I talked to him. He said, "You know, Mr. President -" And I said, "Do you know the first time I ever saw Dean alone was on February 27, 1972, except for 5 minutes when I signed my will on August the 14th." Dick probably repeated, because I think you were in the room. He said, "Are you kidding?" I said, "No, why? Did you hear otherwise?" He said, "Well . . . Dean was around here quoting the President all the time. Did he indicate that I was telling him to do this? H. Peterson: He told me that he had been designated by you to accumulate all these facts and he was reporting to you personally. And that you'd be clearing his ass out if he didn't have it and I went back to him again, I said, "John, are you sure this information is not going laterally?" I said, "Not that I distrust you, but you, where is it going? Do you know?" He said, "Henry, it is only going upward," which I took to mean - Ehrlichman, Haldeman and you. Pres. Nixon: Ehrlichman. It went to Ehrlichman, I am sure. And then into Haldeman. And to Ziegler, because Ziegler used Dean. But that was because he had to (unintelligible). H. Peterson: Well, I didn't have any problem with that. I got in - Pres. Nixon: Dean. You will get Dean in there. Suppose he starts trying to impeach the President, the word of the President of the United States and says, "Well, I have information to the effect that I once discussed with the President the question of how the possibility, of the problem," of this damn Bittman stuff I spoke to you about last time. Henry, it won't stand up for five minutes because nothing was done, and fortunately I had Haldeman at that conversation and he was there and I said, "Look, I tried to give you this, this, this, this, this and this." And I said, "When you finally get it out, it won't work. Because, I said, first, you can't get clemency to Hunt." H. Peterson: I agree. Pres. Nixon: I mean, I was trying to get it out. To try to see what that - Dean had been doing! I said, "First you can't him clemency." Somebody has thrown out something to the effect that Dean reported that Hunt bad an idea that he was going to get clemency around Christmas. I said, "Are you kidding? You can't get clemency for Hunt. You couldn't even think about it until, you know, '75 or something like that." Which you could, then because of the fact, that you could get to the - ah - But nevertheless, I said you couldn't give clemency. I said, "The second point to remember is 'How are you going to get the money for them?' If you could do it, I mean you are talking about a million dollars." I asked him - well, I gave him several ways. I said, "You couldn't put it through a Cuban Committee could you?" I asked him, because to me he was sounding so damned ridiculous. I said, "Well under the circumstances." I said, "There isn't a damn thing we can do." I said, "It looks to me like the problem is sue John Mitchell." Mitchell came down the next day and we talked about executive privilege. Nothing else. Now, that's the total story. And - so Dean - I just want - you to be sure that if Dean ever raises the thing, you've got the whole thing. You've got that whole thing. Now kick him straight -. H. Peterson: That's - I mean - that's what we had to do. I just don't see how we can minimize that man. That's all there is to it. Pres. Nixon: But I suppose he talks to his friends. Is he talking to Bittman? No, Dean was talking to O'Brien, wasn't he? Dean wasn't talking to Bittman. H. Peterson: Not to my knowledge. Wasn't that story that Bittman? That Bittman talked to O'Brien - Bittman, Bittman to O'Brien - Pres. Nixon: No. Bittman to O'Brien said, "Look, we need the money." H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Or was it Bittman to Dean? I don't know. What kind of a guy is O'Brien? H. Peterson: I've only met O'Brien one time and then only recently at a recent Bar dinner. I don't know him. Bittman, I know well. I just thank God I broke off social relations with him from the time he represented Hunt. We had a golf date, and I just broke it and I haven't seen him since then. Pres. Nixon: What about Bittman? H. Peterson: What he's concerned about is the allegation that he, in behalf of Hunt, was attempting to blackmail the White House for substantial sums of money in return for Hunt's silence. That's the allegation. And that's what McCord said - ah Pres. Nixon: McCord said that Bittman - H. Peterson: McCord said that Dorothy Hunt told him all this sort of thing. Pres. Nixon: And so how do you get to them? Do you have to call Bittman? What do you do? H. Peterson: Well, we may get into the fee. Fees are not privleged. Pres. Nixon: I see. H. Peterson: Now - Pres. Nixon: You say, "Where did he get your fee?" H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: And how would you go about that one? H. Peterson: We'll have to subpoena the fee records out of the law firm. Pres. Nixon: And then if he got the fees, you say, "Did blackmail the White House for this?" H. Peterson: Well, ah. Pres. Nixon: How did he pay the fee? H. Peterson: No, no. I think that - one, we try and find out whether or not the amount of fees reflected on the books of the law firm were consistent with the amount of money that was - oh - to have gone to the law firm. In other words, what we think happened is that a considerable amount within the law firm was paid out in fees and the balance went on to Dorothy Hunt for distribution to the Cubans and what have you. Pres. Nixon: For support. H. Peterson: The strange thing about this one, Mr. President, is that they could have done it openly. Pres. Nixon: Why, of course! H. Peterson: If they had just come out in the Washington Post could say, "Well these people were" Pres. Nixon: They helped the Scotsboro people, they helped the Berrigans, you remember the Alger Hiss defense fund? H. Peterson: And we're going to help these - They were doing this. Once you do it in a clandestine fashion, it takes on element Pres. Nixon: Elements of a cover-up. That's right, and obstruction of justice. Pres. Nixon: That's what it is, a question of the way it was done. H. Peterson: Sir. Pres. Nixon: Curious thing. I get your point there, I see that in other words, the - so let's look at Bittman. Bittman says be is trying to blackmail the White House. Alright you called Bittman. Bittman says that - he says that O'Brien - Where did you get the money? And so forth H. Peterson: Now Bittman maintains that it's a lie. Pres. Nixon: He'd be better off to say it's a lie. H. Peterson: Yeah. He simply says that this is a statement by McCord that is lacking veracity. H. Peterson: And is attributed to (unintelligible) and Dorothy Hunt. Pres. Nixon: Of course, you've got Dean now corroborating - H. Peterson: Well, we have Dean alluding to it, but not in circumstances that we can use it. It depends upon whether or not - Pres. Nixon: But Dean must say - this is also hearsay on that point. I had forgotten this is hearsay. Because he says that he had heard that Bittman needed money, I mean, Bittman had said had had to have a hundred - H. Peterson: The link here is O'Brien. Pres. Nixon: Huh? H. Peterson: The link here is O'Brien. Pres. Nixon: I oh - I see. H. Peterson: The lawyer. Pres. Nixon: I see, That Dean had heard from O'Brien. Bittman or O'Brien? H. Peterson: No. I say the link we can break into this is O'Brien. Cause O'Brien's a lawyer. He very scared and - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. So. O'Brien, Let's see what he says. I am just trying to see where it sorts out. O'Brien - can you get him in? What's he done? Has he spoken up? H. Peterson: Well, I don't know that I can really predict - ah - ah - but conceivably if he said - ah - Pres. Nixon: Bittman. H. Peterson: "As part of the scheme to ensure silence of those that were convicted, we made an arrangement whereby money would flow through Bittman in the form of legal fees for distribution to those people." - Then you've got it. Pres. Nixon: In the form of legal fees, I see. And then you've got Bittman and then you've got O'Brien and then you got the people that did it. If they - ah - At least those that knew. Like Kalmbach, might not have known. H. Peterson: That remains to be seen. And LaRue, Pres. Nixon: LaRue? LaRue did know. He had to. And Mitchell. You've got Mitchell there, you've got LaRue. Who else is missing? LaRue, is he the one that used the code name of Rivers? H. Peterson: I don't know whether - Pres. Nixon: I have heard that name Rivers. H. Peterson: I heard Baker. Now there's two, but these may be couriers that Caulfield recruited, I am not sure. Pres. Nixon: And in all that Caulfield is involved, probably only coincidentally. You can't - they say some of these down there. But O'Brien in other words. O'Brien is scared. And O'Brien says that Bittman - I am just trying to see how they ever got - The only way you could ever get - Let me say, there is no way they could get that to the President without going through Haldeman and Ehrlichman. But I am referring to this man here. There's no way they could get it to here except through the fact that on March 21st Dean, as I had reported to you, did report to me that Bittman had told O'Brien that they needed the money. They needed the money. It was discussed and we, I said, "It can't be done. We can't do it." He went on to see Ehrlichman, and Ehrlichman said, "No dice." Nothing could be done. Now that is the fact. As far as we're concerned. That isn't much of a thing for Dean to have. H. Peterson: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: But you could have Bittman I suppose Dean. He could have talked to him - but then you have hearsay. But Dean is not credible. He is not credible. He really can't. He can't go out and say, "Look I've talked to the President and he told me this and that and the other thing." First, it's not true. H. Peterson: That's the reason I say, in order to make Dean a credible witness; one, it seems to me that he has to plead and two, he has to be corroborated in an essential degree, not everything he says. But in sense an essential number of factors by other witnesses. And he may be corroborating in one respect by LaRue and in another respect by O'Brien, and in still a third respect by someone else, and in a fourth respect by Magruder. You know, and that's the way it goes and the case is being built. So, maybe we can bring O'Brien out Pres. Nixon: Well, there's only this one charge I give to you, among many others, and that is: If any of this - I mean, I can't allow it. Believe me that even prosecutors shouldn't even have informed you of this one. Or me - I - H. Peterson: They have described it as bombast, and rhetoric, and - you know, posing - Pres. Nixon: You examine them tomorrow. And you tell them, they are my men. I'm for them too. I want them to do the job. I want this to come out solid and right here. And they will start right in to get the big fish. Let's come to the Dean thing again. I can give you some more time if you want to negotiate with him. I mean, when I say I - more time H. Peterson: He needs more pressure. It's become counterproductive of the President. Pres. Nixon: What? H. Peterson: It's become counterproductive. I think he was pressed up against the wall, he's seen the early-morning crisis pass and now he's had resurgence. You know, he sees Ehrlichman here. He sees Haldeman here. He sees John Dean still here. Nothing happens. His confidence is coming back rather than ebbing. And Pres. Nixon: What do you think? Without your advice - Is the proper course of action to have Dean to either - There are two courses of action I can take. I can take a leave of absence until they clear. You know what I mean. Which of course Is a very - Bill Rogers thinks is the fairest. And in the and and then they resign, of course. Or I can ask - just resign. Now the problem with resignation, which hits at - There isn't any question about what I will do when you get through with your damned Grand Jury. I just don't - I don't want to - you know what I mean? I don't want him in effect - by something that I - to totally prejudice even Dean. You understand what I mean? H. Peterson: I understand that aspect of it. Pres. Nixon: As President I shouldn't give a damn about that, but as President - I'll speak to the country on this. And I will soon. But my point is with a leave of absence, with a leave of absence for all three. H. Peterson: With a leave of absence, you have the best of both worlds. You have given them the benefit of the doubt and you haven't cut the Gordian knot. You haven't asked for their resignations. Pres. Nixon: I have asked for a leave of absence. And I say, "Now I will determine at the conclusion not just of the Grand Jury, but at the conclusion of this entire investigation, that means the Ervin Committee is in there too." If, for example, you don't happen to indict one of these three, or one or two or three. I am not going to take that as clear evidence - it is not enough to serve the President simply to get by - H. Peterson: I understand - Pres. Nixon: And I have told them all of that. They have got to be - H. Peterson: I don't see that we're in any disagreement there. The problem is one of timing, as I see it. I think, in my humble judgment, that the question of timing is working first to your detriment, with respect to your image, before the press and public. Pres. Nixon: Do you mean now would be a good time - H. Peterson: And secondly, I think it is working toward the detriment of the investigation because it is giving all of these people an attitude of hope that I think is unwarranted and I think that if he Pres. Nixon: Let me ask you this. How about moving Haldeman and Ehrlichman and see what that does to Dean. I am just thinking about that - Let me put it this way. I am not in communication with Dean at all. For obvious reasons. But Haldeman and Ehrlichman, I hold my damn brain sessions. I know that they are telling me the truth. Dean, I can't believe him. Because I don't know what he is up to, you see? And, this leave of absence talk, let me say - Please let us keep it within ourselves. I can't leak this out. It will kill them. It will kill the whole thing. I am particularly - can't let it out to Dean. I don't like to put the three of them in the same bag. Although they may all be there. H. Peterson: Mr. President, why do you not like to put them in the same bag? You don't like to put them in the same bag because Haldeman and Ehrlichman are loyal to the last minute, and you - Pres. Nixon: No, no it isn't that. It isn't that. H. Peterson: I am not questioning your motive. Pres. Nixon: I am referring primarily to the fact that I have a different relation with the others. At this point I can't get Dean in and say, "Look fella, you take a leave of absence and if you come through clean I will take you back." You know, something like that. H. Peterson: Well, I, in all candor, I think a leave of absence - absence - is just a preliminary step to ultimate departure. Pres. Nixon: I see. H. Peterson: I don't see how either way any of them could come back. But it certainly at least in terms of bias and prejudice it indicates to the public at large that you haven't completely abandoned them. You haven't completely and unalterably decided their fate. On the other hand, I am separating myself from them and saying now, by golly, you - What you say is you are guilty until you are proven innocent. That's what the leave of absence is. You see. The other way I am saying, "Resignation - you're guilty." That's the difference, isn't it? The leave of absence in effect is saying, "Look, fellas, I give you leave of absence. So I hold you, basically. not that you're guilty," but - I'm not holding you guilty, I'm not finding you guilty, but I'm saying is that you've got to prove that you are innocent before you can come back. H. Peterson: No. Pres. Nixon: Now in recognition I am saying H. Peterson: No - you're saying that you have to prove you're worthy to work in the Office of the President. Pres. Nixon: Oh, I see. I understand. H. Peterson: But I think that, I think that's a much more ritualistic way of saying - Pres. Nixon: Well, that's what I told them. That's what I told them. You know what I mean by guilt and innocence, I mean worthiness. H. Peterson: That's right. Pres. Nixon: You have to prove you're worthy. H. Peterson: But you see that's what I see has to get out to the public. But Mr. President, my wife is not a politically sophisticated woman. Pres. Nixon: That's right - H. Peterson: She knows I'm upset about this and you know, I'm working hard and she sees it. But she asked me at breakfast - she, now I don't want you to hold this against her if you ever meet her, because she's a charming lady - Pres. Nixon: Of course. H. Peterson: She said, "Doesn't all this upset you?" And I said, "Of course it does." Pres. Nixon: "Why the hell doesn't the President do something?" H. Peterson: She said, "Do you think the President knows?" And I looked at her and said, "If I thought the President knew, I would have to resign." But, you know, now there is my own family, Mr. President - Pres. Nixon: Sure. Sure. H. Peterson: Now whatever confidence she has in you, her confidence in me ought to be unquestioned. Well, when that type of question comes through in my home Pres. Nixon: We've got to get it out. H. Peterson: We've got a problem. Pres. Nixon: Well you know I have wrestled with it. I've been trying to - H. Peterson: Mr. President, I pray for you, sir. Pres. Nixon: I have been trying to get the thing. Like even poor Gray - there was nothing we could do. Ah - wrestling with Dean's covers. But ah - H. Peterson: I wouldn't try to distinguish between the three of them. Pres. Nixon: I understand. I understand. Well, I won't try to distinguish, but maybe they will be handled differently due to the fact that I am not communicating with Dean. H. Peterson: Mr. President, it is always easier to advise than it is to assume the responsibility. Pres. Nixon: I will do it my way. And it will be done. I am working on it. I won't even tell you how - how - H. Peterson: I understand - Pres. Nixon: But what are you going to do? What will happen now? The FBI will now interview Dean on that report in California? H. Peterson: Yes, sir. They will interview Ehrlichman and they will, ah, attempt to identify the psychiatrist. They will interview the psychiatrist named as Ellsberg's psychiatrist to determine whether or not they were burglarized or know they were burglarized. They will attempt to determine if there s any police report of a burglary. We will check with the Defense Department since they have been involved in this thing. We will recheck the FBI. We've already checked them once. Pres. Nixon: What did they find? H. Peterson: Well, nothing. We've checked our own people Pres. Nixon: Now, the FBI did not do anything. H. Peterson: I understand. But . . . we're talking about the evidence of information that may have been stemmed from that source. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Well they got into the trial. H. Peterson: Whether any of that has gotten into the file in any way. And when we do that and we do that, we have to file a report to the Court and we will and ah we'll see what develops. Pres. Nixon: Alright. Thank you.