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$Unique_ID{bob01224} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 17, 1973. (5:20pm - 7:14pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres rogers wm unintelligible haldeman ehrlichman hr that's dean} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 17, 1973. (5:20pm - 7:14pm) Meeting: President Nixon, William Rogers, HR Haldeman and John Ehrlichman, EOB Office Pres. Nixon: Come in. Wm. Rogers: Mr. President Pres. Nixon: Well. Wm. Rogers: Well, did you make the announcement Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: Sounds good, I hope. Pres. Nixon: See if I - Wm. Rogers: See I heard it when you did it. Pres. Nixon: Won't hurt anything. I think it was the right move. Wm. Rogers: Yeah - right. Pres. Nixon: After our talk yesterday, I referred to - I was aiming at the Ervin Committee - managed to get that one over (unintelligible) terms we discussed. Figures though - I mean - Len Garment is pretty good. Talked to Petersen again today - he was down here at the White House. And (unintelligible) charged with "got to resign." Just figures you can't keep them. Walked out in the sun and frankly put them ahead of Mitchell. But I just don't think - you have any different views today? Wm. Rogers: No, I don't. Pres. Nixon: You think this is the right step to go? Wm. Rogers: I do. Pres. Nixon: It can occur - it's going to be - it's going to be bloody. Wm. Rogers: I think that. Pres. Nixon: Believe me. Wm. Rogers: That the top people in government deserve the same consideration as anybody else. Pres. Nixon: Damn right. Wm. Rogers: The idea that a top person in government is, you know - it isn't the question beyond reproach, you know. A person could be beyond reproach. Take me - I should have been fired many times because I've been so heavily criticized in the press, many of those were things I didn't do. You remember. Wm. Rogers: Well, as a matter of fact, it's a little bit the same attitude that Lucius Clay had about you and the fund. Pres. Nixon: Right. Wm. Rogers: That there's Mr. Eisenhower and you should get off. Well, that wasn't really what he said. Pres. Nixon: I think the people will probably - they will have a view that - the New York Times will have a view in an editorial tomorrow that the President should fire the whole White House staff. Wm. Rogers: Oh well, that isn't - Pres. Nixon: Anybody who did it. But I think the people - I don't know. Correct me if I am wrong. I think they like a man who stands up to them - not to condemn people before they're proven. I don't know. Wm. Rogers: Well, I think that - what did Petersen say on Ehrlichman? Does he have any other evidence except what's in that piece of paper because if he doesn't there wasn't anything in there. Pres. Nixon: Nope - nope. Well, it's hardly anything. Except that Pat Gray now recollects he did get the damn piece of paper and he destroyed it, because he was told it was political material, had nothing to do with Watergate. We'll take him on on this - this has destroyed him. There's no place in the FBI to (unintelligible) it - it's an unbelievable story. Wm. Rogers: Well, now Ehrlichman didn't tell him to destroy it? Pres. Nixon: Hell no. Gray went back - Dean did give it to him. It was in Ehrlichman's office. And, incidentally, I put it hard to Petersen. I'll tell you about that point. I even used your name. I said, "I talked to Bill Rogers about it yesterday and I had a very (unintelligible)." I said, "He looked over this and he said, You don't have much of a case on Ehrlichman." That problem - and he said - Wm. Rogers: That piece of paper didn't have anything on Ehrlichman. Pres. Nixon: They'll pound on that. They're trying like hell to just frighten people to death. They're going to send 'em to jail and so forth. Strachan - they're trying to break him. I don't understand. Hell, he can either be a witness or a defendant. So - well, the other thing - and I told Haldeman, I said, "Tell him to be a witness." Wm. Rogers: What's happened to Dean? Pres. Nixon: They made a deal with him. And that's why I put in that statement, I hope that's the point. I said, "Look, I talked to Rogers." I said "We think we have a grave problem in giving immunity to the President's Counsel." He said, "But, suppose that it's Dean's testimony that we need to get Haldeman and Ehrlichman. Then should we give him immunity - shouldn't we give him immunity?" I said, "No - not unless you have corroboration." Wm. Rogers: Well, well, what you do, Mr. President, on things like that is you say to a fellow, "Well, you've got to you violated the law. You've got to be indicted. We'll consider the help you've given us when it comes to the question of sentence." In other words, you - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: Hold out the prospect to him. Pres. Nixon: But, how could you give John Dean, the President's Counsel, total immunity when he's involved? He admits involvement throughout. Wm. Rogers: Of course, if you gave him immunity - Wm. Rogers: You - you get. Pres. Nixon: I said no. I said, by no means, I'd get the rack. Wm. Rogers: They'd say that you worked it out so Dean - Pres. Nixon: Well, they're going to. Then the other way - the way Dean's appeal is the U.S. Attorney's people. Well, Petersen said he agreed with that. He was trying to convince the U.S. Attorneys of that, but they are hot on trying to give him immunity and they're going to. And they want to (unintelligible) Haldeman and Ehrlichman. Frankly, that's it. And then they said - and then it's a cop out (unintelligible). Why do you think they should go? On what basis? Here's what we have in mind. I'll tell you what this statement was on. They're going to have Magruder in open court eventually. Haven't made the deal with him yet either, but they will. (Unintelligible) questions (unintelligible) they're going to put out this statement in which they will name other what they call non-indicted coconspirators. I keep hearing about the names of people that he must charge. That's all (unintelligible). He said Sirica, otherwise, will ask him questions and he's going to testify publicly in open court about other people. I think that is a hell of a prejudicial thing to do - the rights of an individual - but I don't know how - have you ever heard of that? And I said - and then they said, "Haldeman and Ehrlichman will not be on that list if they take a leave - if you fire, them." I said, "Are you telling me if I fire them, you won t prosecute them?" "Oh, no, no, but I mean won't be on that list." "But you - have you said if they're on that list they'll have to take 'em?" And then they said - I said, "Well, what are you saying?" He said, "Well, we just felt we were giving you an option, that you could move ahead of the herd basically by just letting them go." But on the other hand, Bill, I think - I think that whether they're on the list - if I let 'em go they're on the list anyway. It appears that I just - I heard they were going to be on the list and I fired them and they were on it. Then it looks as if we're not prosecuting. That's my problem. We're not prosecuting my two top people and I let them go. I don't think that makes sense at all or do you agree? Am I missing something here? Wm. Rogers: You don't seem to. Pres. Nixon: Well, tell me that. Well, wouldn't it look bad? Bad? Wm. Rogers: Oh, sure. From your standpoint. Yeah. Pres. Nixon: If I let Haldeman and Ehrlichman go and they didn't have them on the list, they will call them before the Grand Jury and then indict them if they get information. Wm. Rogers: Well you see, Mr. President, the only reason a judge questions a defendant when there's a plea of guilty - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: Is to make sure that he's pleading voluntarily and that he knows the nature of his pleading. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. But right. Right. But Sirica has exceeded that hasn't he, Bill? That's the point. Wm. Rogers: Well. Pres. Nixon: He's asking now who else was involved. See that's what he's going to ask. "Was he involved?" Wm. Rogers: It seems to me that if he's doing that - Pres. Nixon: I think he'll act like he did over McCord. Wm. Rogers: Well, if he does that, that's a perversion of the Grand Jury process. The whole idea of the Grand Jury process is to protect people Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: Until they are indicted. And once they are indicted, then they are presumed to be innocent until we go to trial. One of the reasons you have a Grand Jury proceeding is so you don't have innocent names and then (unintelligible) to the public. Pres. Nixon: Well, I'll tell you. Let me put it this way. (Unintelligible) Haldeman, and Ehrlichman, on a thing like this - Ehrlichman - frankly, I think he's going to beat it. I don't think it's going to help him, if by letting him go, I know that he's gone to the prosecution. I told him - Wm. Rogers: You shouldn't - you shouldn't be faced with those problems. Pres. Nixon: I know I don't have any (unintelligible). Don't you agree with me that that was - you know I am concerned about my people. I know that Haldeman and Ehrlichman are not guilty of a damn thing. You know what I mean. It's only tangential on that, Bill - tangential. Sure they knew we were raising money for these damn defendants, but they were (unintelligible) in the campaign. I mean, I mean (unintelligible) Dean at the meeting, wasn't he? Wm. Rogers: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Ehrlichman was handling the whole domestic thing and Haldeman was working with me at the time. They didn't work in the campaign. It was all over with Mitchell. Mitchell was - in this whole thing - and frankly, Dean was handling it for the White House. (unintelligible). Our people were aware that he was. We were aware about that. Wm. Rogers: How did you leave it with Petersen? I don't know whether - I think from now on you better let him go into the brawl. I don't know. Pres. Nixon: I have. I left it with Petersen. He's going to report to me and I said, "If you get any corroborating testimony, I'd like to know." I think that's better. Wm. Rogers: Sure. Pres. Nixon: And if I get some corroborative testimony, I said, "I'd like to be warned and I can call in my people and say, 'Look, I found this out and I've got information and you - Therefore, you ought to consider whether you shouldn't resign.'" That's all I told him. Well, I'm not going to talk to him any more about that. After all, I'm the President of the country - and I'm going to get on with it and meet Italians and Germans and all these others. You know, really - Wm. Rogers: Oh, you do that. I think you, I think that - Pres. Nixon: I've been living with this for (unintelligible) that's all I've been doing for half the time now. And having all these (unintelligible) that I had trust in. What trust. I trust Ehrlichman. I had him working. I must say he completed the job. He got to the bottom of the thing. Had a meeting with Mitchell and questioned (unintelligible). This was before Magruder went to the (unintelligible). And he said, "There is a possible, possible situation of the act of - What do you call it? Wm. Rogers: (Unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: If the individuals knew that the purpose was to keep people from talking in court. In court, not openly. Apparently, it's - You might keep 'em from it - but he said, "Anyway, that's the problem." So, I don't know. I still don't know if it is a problem. I don't - see, I'm thinking of Haldeman and his kids, Ehrlichman and Dean and his. You know what I mean. I'm thinking of the possibility of their mocking a great career. Their service has been efficient - marvelously (unintelligible). It's been all over (unintelligible). I'll tell you, if they aren't convicted, Bill, they'll come out. You know what I mean. (Unintelligible) charge, and everybody's going to understand. This'll be in better perspective in a year, I think. Wm. Rogers: I think so. I think once that the - well, the first blush will be - Pres. Nixon: Terrible Wm. Rogers: It'll be terrible. Pres. Nixon: Yes, sir. Wm. Rogers: No doubt about that. Pres. Nixon: Oh, yes! Wm. Rogers: And it will - it has so many little ramifications that you - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: To this story. Pres. Nixon: Right - right. Wm. Rogers: But when it's all over - finished - Pres. Nixon: The Watergate mess. Wm. Rogers: When it's finished - Pres. Nixon: I'll be here, all along, Bill. The Jury indicts, moves. We're going to get on with this country. A lot of people in the country, we may find, they feel the President is doing the best he can in the damn thing. If I had wanted to coverup - they probably think the President can cover-up. If I wanted to, I sure haven't done it very well, have I? Wm. Rogers: See, you only got what your - what the press will do to your own people. Press will persecute people. Pres. Nixon: They prosecuted Mitchell. Wm. Rogers: Did Dean at any time give you any indication of what he's going to do? Pres. Nixon: Make a deal. Both - make a deal with Dean. Make a deal. I would think that Dean would just say, "Look son, if you're indicted, I'm coming (unintelligible). Gee, fellows, what the hell is (unintelligible)" and any of the others. But he's going to try this whole Administration I would expect. And my view on that is let him try the whole Administration. Ron Ziegler has an interesting point. He said, "Dean had in February, had said, 'I, for nine months conducted this investigation.' Now he comes in and charges inaction." Dammit, why didn't he come in earlier, and tell me these things, Bill? Why didn't he do it? If he knew, I would think that - Wm. Rogers: It's one of those things that I just - (unintelligible) Mitchell Pres. Nixon: Oh. Wm. Rogers: Well, these things happened. Pres. Nixon: And once it did happen, not cutting it off right then - stepping forward and saying, "I (unintelligible) this. These kids shouldn't have done this and that's my (unintelligible) best judgment." Well, I think I know they just thought that might hurt the election. Wm. Rogers: Same thing is true in Vesco. That case he's involved in. Pres. Nixon: Belongs to the courts. I'd rather have it there than in the Committee. Wm. Rogers: Oh, sure. Pres. Nixon: Wouldn't you? At least the court doesn't try - Wm. Rogers: Well, that's the way it's supposed to be. That's the system. The system Pres. Nixon: It sure shows the system works, though, doesn't it? And I get amused. I had (unintelligible) in all Sunday, had 'em in Monday, I had him in here today. I fired out my statement, and I said - Wm. Rogers: What'd he say about your statement? Pres. Nixon: Petersen? Oh, he thought it was fine. I got to thank him for it. Wm. Rogers: Is he going to (unintelligible) accuse other people in open court? Pres. Nixon: That's just like Sirica (unintelligible). Wm. Rogers: Well, I can see, I can see Sirica was, he was suspicious there was a cover-up. Pres. Nixon: That's right. Wm. Rogers: He was trying to, he was trying to put pressure on the ones who knew so he could - Pres. Nixon: Not only to confess about themselves, but about other ones. That point, of course, they'd say that Magruder has acknowledged, Magruder has confessed - but what about others? What about (unintelligible)? Wm. Rogers: What I mean is here you've got a willing witness. Before he was doing it to reluctant defendants. Here you got a willing, as I understand it, a willing one. Pres. Nixon: Who will testify. Wm. Rogers: Who will testify, has been working with the prosecutor and who's going to, will be called before the Grand Jury. Why the hell he's - that (unintelligible) open court. That's the - that's what the Grand Jury's for. Makes a nice little backdrop for your Italian dinner. Pres. Nixon: Oh, it'll be alright. They'll have a fine dinner and wine. They just heard the story. "Thank God, the President's finally said something about Watergate." That, I think, is going to be the partial reaction. Wm. Rogers: I do too. Pres. Nixon: I don't know. I'm not taking any - Wm. Rogers: No. I don't either. Pres. Nixon: Comfort out of it, because for a period of time it's going to be painful. When Mitchell gets indicted, and when possibly Haldeman and Ehrlichman get - Wm. Rogers: (Unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: They're talking to them now. I've asked them both to come over here for a minute when they get (unintelligible). I feel frankly that we should. And a question that he makes now which is still open, you see, he still left it open. They, they'll leave if evidence (unintelligible) brought to my attention. Wm. Rogers: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) Approach that I have my sources. Now, if he doesn't have enough to sink 'em, but he makes these, he's doing enough to sink them - where are you getting (unintelligible) on the other story? Whether or not Haldeman and Ehrlichman ought to wait until their names are publicly brought into this. Magruder shouldn't. He said he'd give me twelve hours' notice on that, but I - I think that probably it's going to (unintelligible). Wm. Rogers: I think John and Bob ought to resign, but talk to their lawyer first (unintelligible) but I don't think - Pres. Nixon: Your immediate reaction though is - Wm. Rogers: My reaction is I don't understand. Pres. Nixon: What should I do? Wm. Rogers: What the hell they're going to. What Magruder's going to do. I don't know. It seems to me if Dean has mentioned them that way that they ought to then take a leave of absence. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: I don't see how - Pres. Nixon: But you would wait until their names were mentioned? That's the whole point. Wm. Rogers: Yeah. I don't see on what basis you need to do it. Now in the case of - Pres. Nixon: Well, on this basis now, let's say that the President had knowledge from the U.S. Attorney that charges had been made against them. Let me emphasize, I nailed him hard. I said, "now let's -" I said, "Rogers and I read this whole thing over. But it's uncorroborated." He says, "I agree. Pres. Nixon: But he wants me to sack 'em. Wm. Rogers: He can't corroborate it? Pres. Nixon: And I have a feeling for a guy that's supposed to uphold the rights of innocent before (unintelligible) are guilty or not. Well, let me say this. I've got to live with myself. I don't want to do it in that (unintelligible). That isn't fair. On the other hand, I'm trying to think of their standpoint. If they're going to get - if they could get some advantage, either - any advantage by not thereby being named in this statement and then, of course, not even being indicted. Maybe that's something. But they're going - Wm. Rogers: (unintelligible) specifically almost have to point out - Pres. Nixon: They, they, on the other hand, they're going to be called. They'll be indicted and (unintelligible) Although, I guess appearing as non-indicted co-conspirators - what the hell do you say to that? I mean (unintelligible). Wm. Rogers: When you have a case that's serious and when you have people who are on the periphery and you want to name them in order to have them available as witness, you name them as a co-conspirator without indicting them. Well, the problem first - Pres. Nixon: These guys are available. Wm. Rogers: the problem first - that's just as bad as being indicted, especially when you know somebody was (unintelligible) lying. So you're named, but you can't clear your name. Pres. Nixon: That's right. Wm. Rogers: But in case you're indicted, then you have the opportunity to clear the record. Little trial, then acquittal, then you - this is as if it didn't happen. If you're named as a co-conspirator and forced to resign, then you're convicted without a trial. In that case I'm no really - you got to protect them because I don't - I think probably in the final analysis they - I'm afraid Bob is probably in - Pres. Nixon: Going to be indicted? Wm. Rogers: trouble. But - Pres. Nixon: I'm not sure he'll be indicted. Wm. Rogers: I'm not sure he'll be indicted but - Pres. Nixon: Well, staying too close to the money. He never can explain that. In terms of legal involvement though but he could never explain to the people and you (unintelligible) some of that damn money back there for 'em. Testified by Mitchell, by, by Dean. Was it a (unintelligible) of the defense? Wm. Rogers: Why don't we do this? (unintelligible) - or, they're just talking to lawyers. You don't have a chance to assimilate it. But don't let them (unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: Well Wm. Rogers: And you're going to have twelve hours. Pres. Nixon: Yeah - twelve. I would like for you to put your mind to the problem, if you would, because I really think we've got to start helping 'em. Help advise them. They're in the eye of the hurricane. Wm. Rogers: All right. It gives us a little time to see how your, how your statement plays. Pres. Nixon: Always had a (unintelligible) had (unintelligible) I really did think - Wm. Rogers: Oh. Pres. Nixon: But that he probably didn't know about - know what I mean? My feeling was that Mitchell - basically always thought Magruder knew the damn thing. Mitchell just wasn't tending the shop. That's what I understand. Wm. Rogers: I'm surprised about Dean. I thought - I thought - Well from the beginning, I thought Magruder lied and I thought Mitchell probably - he may well have given the go ahead and said, "Oh yeah, to hell with this," and the damn thing was then approved. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. "Don't tell me about it." Wm. Rogers: "Go ahead. Don't tell me. Go ahead and do it." Well I'm surprised about Dean because I didn't think - Pres. Nixon: Now Dean claims that he didn't have anything to do with having them go ahead. Understand that. After that Dean came in in terms of the obstruction of justice. There's where he's vulnerable. That's all. He's not vulnerable on the first part in my opinion. I think he - Wm. Rogers: From the same position if he's gotten two people he's trying to bargain with - Dean and Magruder - and he did lie say he got written statement from both of them? Pres. Nixon: I don't know - I think what they've done is just sat down and debriefed. That's what they call it. It's all (unintelligible) with an agreement certainly, though. Where Dean is concerned, nothing they can do to shake him. On that one he stands firm. Wm. Rogers: I would think that the one fellow that had to know about this and should just take a leave of absence is Dean. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) what about this - who the hell wants to (unintelligible)? It looks like this might (unintelligible) of course, set him off. Wm. Rogers: We don't. Pres. Nixon: Worse than he is. Wm. Rogers: Well I think your point is true enough. He appears beyond the thing, although he - Pres. Nixon: He was the one. Wm. Rogers: Pretty hard. Pretty hard to say, "The lawyers -" Pres. Nixon: Well he was - he was not. Not in this matter, I can cure you. He handled the whole thing. He was depending upon - regarding the fact - when I started my investigation on the 21st of March. I saw Dean at least (unintelligible) times. At Camp David, he was to write the (expletive deleted) up so we could put out a statement. He said, "I really can't write a statement that you can put out." So I must say, I've done everything I can get to the bottom, Bill, as you can see. I said, "John, you got to let it all hang out - now find out - you got to tell me what the hell the score is so we'll know how to deal with this. We're not going to be nibbled to death by a thousand hurts." That's exactly what we've done. So we've got just (unintelligible) The time when McCord, which I - I don't know what he's talking about. There are - at least, he's made a lot of allegations that he can't prove. But there's enough there that would put anybody on notice that without a doubt there's something wrong. Wm. Rogers: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: That's why I had to move and I have - at least I produced - good. I thought the statement should reveal that I have been working on the (expletive deleted) since the twenty-first of March. Wm. Rogers: (unintelligible) why don't we - why don't we try it again tomorrow night and then - Pres. Nixon: Right. Wm. Rogers: why don't you get - still in the - in the - in a real sense, it's up to the - it's up to John and Bob. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: It's damn difficult for anybody else who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. For example, I don't really know - you know - what the facts are. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: I. - Pres. Nixon: I'm not sure that I know. Wm. Rogers: You don't either. So it's very difficult for others. Your judgment tends to be superficial. Although a sophisticated fellow John, after all, is a lawyer so he claims that he's (unintelligible). Thoughtful kind of a fellow, and if he isn't shaken now, this is a fellow that's not just a rambling idiot. Pres. Nixon: Yeah - he's taking (unintelligible). Had everybody over this morning. "Going to fight, discredit Dean - discredit the prosecutor." You know - "going to fight." That'll be one hell of a big fight but (unintelligible) the Administration (unintelligible) Wm. Rogers: (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Dean's (unintelligible) Wm. Rogers: You don't expect the head of the FBI to pick up and burn the damn stuff. You can always put it in your safe and say it is unrelated to the investigation. But, burn it? Makes you look like a common crook. Pres. Nixon: We're working as hard as we can. The guy we're thinking of Bill (unintelligible) frankly (unintelligible) a Democrat, Irish, Catholic, bachelor, forty-two years of age. He's finishing the Ellsberg case and received plaudits for being just as fair as he can. Thank God there's a jurist of that kind. And based on (unintelligible) sense of (unintelligible.) And I feel I think he'd get a hundred percent because he has the best investigative experience. A great man for the job. Wm. Rogers: (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: He will get a hundred votes in the Senate. I think (unintelligible) Why did you burn it? Wouldn't you say, "There's no place in the FBI. We have nothing to do with politics. This is political material. Turned it over to us, showed it to us because they wanted to be sure they weren't suppressing anything and it did not involve the Watergate. (unintelligible) thought the best thing to do was the FBI." HR Haldeman: Do you want us or not? Pres. Nixon: Oh sure, come on in. Wm. Rogers: I was just saying to the President maybe we ought to wait until overnight. The two of you buzzed or just not feeling well - J. Ehrlichman: We talked to your Mr. Wilson. Pres. Nixon: Was he lying down? Wilson? An old-timer? HR Haldeman: Nothing like - contrary to your feeling that we wouldn't want to work with him, I think we'll find him very good and tough. J. Ehrlichman: He's very knowledgeable. HR Haldeman: Sharp as hell. Technically, he's too old, but mentally he's very bright. Pres. Nixon: Just let me say, I'm so glad that you have him, somebody, to talk to. I definitely - Wm. Rogers: My only reservation would be - (unintelligible). HR Haldeman: Well, that's a problem. If we go to trial, he's got a heart problem and all that so you can't - Pres. Nixon: You don't need a trial lawyer - HR Haldeman: We need brains right now. Pres. Nixon: What you need is brains, judgment. HR Haldeman: He's got that. J. Ehrlichman: Well, he knows the cast of characters. He knows Petersen. He knows Glanzer. He knows all those people and he despises them. Wm. Rogers: All the people we don't like. HR Haldeman: Maybe he started out that way before we said anything. Wm. Rogers: Well, I'm glad because I was worried about his condition. Pres. Nixon: Bill brought - incidentally, I asked him about it again, how he liked the Garment approach. And he said, "No problem." We should go with him. I told him this is the only question you see, I don't have anybody to talk to. I never talk to Petersen any more. That's done, except - except for all the information I want. You know what I mean. J. Ehrlichman: Wilson said to us, "Beware of Petersen. He talks." He said, he cited a case that he had that Petersen was involved in - HR Haldeman: And he said that one problem in dealing with him was that every point he makes is accompanied by a story, and that latter is so. Pres. Nixon: He probably foxed him. Well, then maybe all I'll do with Petersen - he said that he'd give me 12 hours notice with regard to the Magruder thing and I think I want that. HR Haldeman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Bill doesn't know how the hell that procedure works - J. Ehrlichman: Let me tell you what that procedure is. Wilson explained that to us too. He said that where a man goes in on an information and pleads guilty in this District, it is customary for the judge to interrogate if he wishes to. And also for there to be filed a statement of the case - ah - in the nature of information. Now the information which they will file instead of indictment names the coconspirators in the conspiracy charge who are not indicted. J. Ehrlichman: That does not mean that you won't be indicted later. It means for the purpose of that information which is then filed, you are not indicted. And so this is a list of people who in a description of a conspiracy pattern are co-conspirators. His analysis of the pros and cons of this are that for the prosecutor to come forward and say, "If you will suspend these birds, I will name them in the list of co-conspirators," gets the prosecutor off a difficult political hook because when the judge asks, "Were there any other coconspirators and so on?" He says, "Well, they have already been suspended - ah, and maybe indicted." We reserve the right to indict them but we are going to have them before the Grand Jury. Wm. Rogers: So, are they going to help a bit? J. Ehrlichman: Well, it doesn't help us. It helps the prosecutor with his problem. On the other hand, he says, there is a certain negative in it. From a political standpoint for the Administration in that the question will arise, "Well, why weren't their names on there if they're co-conspirators?" Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: Somebody's covered up. Wm. Rogers: Yes. HR Haldeman: That's worse than putting them on the list. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, and so, he said - Wm. Rogers: I don't know, John. And let me go back for just a moment on this procedure. The information is filed by the prosecutor himself, without a Grand Jury action? HR Haldeman: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: If the prosecutor names, for all practical purposes, the fact - Pres. Nixon: In the public mind - Wm. Rogers: Particularly that you are going to leave public service J. Ehrlichman: That's what Wilson said. HR Haldeman: That's what Wilson said. Pres. Nixon: If they are indicted. Wm. Rogers: Well. You've been indicted. Pres. Nixon: That's right. Let's face it. Wm. Rogers: The indictment, Bob, is a charge - Pres. Nixon: It doesn't convict anybody. Wm. Rogers: What the Constitution provides is that before charged, a group of citizens to view the evidence J. Ehrlichman: In secret - Wm. Rogers: In secret, to see If there is sufficient evidence to make a public charge against them. That's the protection that everybody has. If there is an exception and I guess there is in this case, the lesser crime would result. But in this case the gravity is such that it is all baloney. That's all right if somebody is accused of stealing an automobile from the sidewalk or something. You know, people in government positions are entitled to the protection of the Grand Jury because if they want to make a public charge against an individual then present it to the Grand Jury. That's what you have. But here you have a perversion of the system. J. Ehrlichman: Sure. Wm. Rogers: Being compelled to leave the government. "Hell, as far as the public is concerned, you are already indicted." J. Ehrlichman: Really, the job - they have this capacity by using that process. They could ruin you and never give you a day in court. Wm. Rogers: Of course. J. Ehrlichman: They could list you as a co-conspirator, don't call you to the Grand Jury, don't take an indictment against you - HR Haldeman: Force the President to suspend you and - J. Ehrlichman: You are cooked forever. You are a conspirator in the Watergate case. Wm. Rogers: As far as the public is concerned, you are indicted even if they don't call it that. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. Wm. Rogers: That's what it is nowadays. The President has been forced to have you leave. J. Ehrlichman: It's non-actionable. It's privileged. You can't sue for slander. HR Haldeman: We do have a public record in that regard in that we have a public position that commands substantial attention. Wm. Rogers: See, Bob, the protection of the Grand Jury gives a citizen is that first the charge is heard in public. HR Haldeman: That's right. To turn this around. Wm. Rogers: Then the charge - then everybody shuts up. The evidence is not disclosed. Nobody says a word and the Judge cautions everybody to take the oath not to repeat the evidence and then you go to trial. And everything is then controlled by the rules of evidence. The the Jury makes a decision based on that evidence. That's the system. Now if you do it the other way, you don't get the trial. You both would be indicted and convicted by the public beforehand. J. Ehrlichman: That's a tough political call - that we were framed up there. In this conversation, we don't need to decide here beyond mentioning it, but it's something that will have to be decided. Our relationship to Dean - probably was client to attorney. Because we were already noted and present in all these transactions. What I said to Dean and what Dean said to me is private conversation with no third party present. It could be a question of privilege. The question is, if requested by the prosecutor, to waive the privilege. It is that Dean conversation where he says he came and told me that Liddy had confessed. Pres. Nixon: But he did it in California, didn't he? J. Ehrlichman: Well, the only reason to tell me was not for me as me but because I was one of two conduits that he had to the Boss. He didn't have, I mean, the organizational set-up was that way. HR Haldeman: The President's log is very interesting. I don't know if you've gotten through all of this, but from the time of the Watergate break-in until the end of August when he signed your votes in the office, you never saw John Dean. Pres. Nixon: That's of course HR Haldeman: During July and August the President had no communication with Dean at all. J. Ehrlichman: Now, he gave a lot of legal advice about this case. A lot of traffic and all that, but there's also developed a poor relationship and sooner or later the President is going to have to decide whether he wants to consider privilege - if Dean becomes - Pres. Nixon: My privilege? Lawyer-client privilege? J. Ehrlichman: Yes. In Dean's communications to me and my communications to him. And the same with Bob. I think. That's a tough problem. You probably won't want to reserve It. Pres. Nixon: I'll take a look. In fact I don't mean this politically. What do you think about that? Wm. Rogers: It is really ticklish. J. Ehrlichman: Probably the first time it's come up in this generation. Mr. Wilson would like to do a lot of erudite thinking about that for a while. Pres. Nixon: Great old man. J. Ehrlichman: He was at the White House once before. Pres. Nixon: I remember. It's almost a year now. J. Ehrlichman: Dixon-Yates thing. HR Haldeman: He was offered the Budget thing. He refused. J. Ehrlichman: Canal is open. HR Haldeman: He stayed at the White House for several month. Wm. Rogers: My only thought on (unintelligible) maybe he is looking out to not hurt himself at all. Pres. Nixon: Like what? Wm. Rogers: Well, what it really means is - it is hard to understand he was Counsel to you as well as to the President. J. Ehrlichman: I appreciate what you are saying and that is important and I understand. A How did he contact the President? HR Haldeman: Dean? He dealt with one of us. J. Ehrlichman: In our capacity to make decisions. He was really an advisor in that situation. Not a (unintelligible) and sometimes he followed and sometimes he didn't. Pres. Nixon: That's common. Everyone wants to carve his place. HR Haldeman: Yeah. A Problem is, what do other people say about him? J. Ehrlichman: He's a jerk. Sure, that's right. Pres. Nixon: And I deferred to him in this damned investigation. Remember you said, "I think you ought to talk to John Dean." Remember. And I called him in there. And, I listened ad infinitum and carted him off to Camp David. HR Haldeman: (unintelligible) I deferred to him on most occasions. Wm. Rogers: Well, why don't we think it over? Pres. Nixon: Well, let's start with one thing. I don't see anything to be gained by the procedure of Haldeman and Ehrlichman. You see, here's the problem. Kleindienst, Bill, on Sunday - they both came in and said, "Because of Haldeman and Ehrlichman - just the fact that both of these clowns had implicated them and they ought to resign. They haven't served you well, Mr. President." and all that sort of thing. Wm. Rogers: I think that's - Pres. Nixon: They said, "Make them resign, resign, resign." I said, "Well, Damn it, I can't do it on un-corroborated testimony." The point is - I think - a moment of truth for them when they come in - and say they've got corroborative testimony. Do I have to examine the damned testimony? I say, "Look, fellows, I think under these circumstances, you had better voluntarily -" say - see - what I mean? That's what, my concern - Bill has made the point that a person in public office should have no more and no less rights than a person out of public office. That's my theory. Right, Bill? HR Haldeman: Well, there is a good counter argument which is that a person in public office has a higher obligation than a person not in public office. This is one of their points. Wm. Rogers: I think though, that is for the individual to decide. That in effect has to be done. It hasn't been done. J. Ehrlichman: I think that if we turned up in this crazy information - junk - even though we are not charged with a crime, in the ultimate sense - I could write you a letter and say that due to these charges, that obviously I don't want to impair your situation and I am going to take a leave. Pres. Nixon: You could say I have asked you to put me on leave until the charges are cleared up. J. Ehrlichman: Sure, and I think that is the direction from which it ought to come. Pres. Nixon: I personally think that is really the course of action we should take and let them put it out if they want to that way. And if they do and if you are named you can immediately say, "I am confident that these charges will not stand up and that I, that I, and so forth"-and, "My usefulness, of course, will be seriously impaired and I therefore request a leave until the matter is cleared up." I think that's, I think we can all agree on that without an indictment. I might put a P.S. on there and say, "I am shocked with the procedure followed and when I am reinstated I am going to see to it that the Justice Department changes its procedure." Wm. Rogers: If the prosecutor came to the President and advanced sufficient evidence for you to ask them to resign, and he looks at that evidence and says, "I agree." That's your decision. But in this kind of a case, normally, that kind of a judgment wouldn't mean indictment - that's all we have (unintelligible) but under these circumstances (unintelligible) in effect, Dean would be doing a greater disservice to you than a bonafide Grand Jury indictment. Pres. Nixon: That's right, he would. Wm. Rogers: He's working for and already decided before the Attorney General could come on the case. Pres. Nixon: I think that, I think that before you have your day in Court. That really means something to me. Wm. Rogers: Well, if you were to consult aside from the Attorney General, that's a different matter. I don't - the thing I think - based on what Petersen gave to the President, rich I looked at, I don't think there's sufficient there. There may be something I don't know about. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I put those to Wilson and he said, "Well, I'll have to - take it with my bed crumbs tonight." You know, reaction was. Pres. Nixon: What are we going to do to - go ahead. Wm. Rogers: The Star Newspaper said that you had meetings in June or something. Pres. Nixon: Say it again. That's what Dean's saying. J. Ehrlichman: And even then, after that. Pres. Nixon: That cannot be proper, Bill. Wm. Rogers: But even supposing you had said that. Suppose you do that. Then there was, then it isn't what you say, it's you did. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Wm. Rogers: So, what did they do? They turned all. Everything the safe over to the FBI. They turned over the matters dealing with the Watergate to the agents that were investigating it, they turned over other material not related to Watergate and was not under investigation to the head of the FBI. Now how in hell can you say, "That is obstruction of justice to turn over all the evidence to the FBI?" Pres. Nixon: Except that, when Pat Gray burned it, it makes it look like it - J. Ehrlichman: His wild geese - "Deep Six." Wm. Rogers: Pat Gray says, Pat Gray was told to do that. He said - Pres. Nixon: He was not told to do that. J. Ehrlichman: On the other business, which is very suspicious, and that is the business of "should he leave the country," I've checked with everybody in that meeting and they don't remember anything like that. It turns out Dean called Liddy and told him to have Hunt leave the country. Colson recalls Dean mentioning this to him, not in my office, and Colson saying to Dean, "You stupid bastard. What a terrible mistake." Then it was countermanded so - HR Haldeman: And he didn't leave the country. J. Ehrlichman: And he didn't leave the country, so I suspect that Dean may have acted unilaterally on that. Pres. Nixon: Here again - HR Haldeman: Colson brought him up short. Pres. Nixon: Here he is trying to pass this up to Ehrlichman, too. J. Ehrlichman: Well, he has to have an explanation for why he did it. Pres. Nixon: And how is that going to come out from the others if they said, "He was told to leave the country"? Or has Hunt already said it? J. Ehrlichman: Well, yeah. There is no question that he got orders from Liddy who said that, "my principals say -" And he said, "Who are your principals?" and he said, "John Dean." Pres. Nixon: John Dean said, "Oh no, it's Ehrlichman"? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Get into one of these "he said," "I said" sort of thing it's going to be miserable. But the probabilities against the surrounding circumstances at least as of now look good. Now I have no illusions about this process, when you give it the test of credibility. Everybody gets used up. There is nothing left so you just have to expect that that's the end of the ball game. Pres. Nixon: Well, it is for this time, but now and then you have one fight and win the battle. The three, the three-fifty thing is the toughest thing, Bob, about this whole thing. Mainly, to me there's no question about it, just basically that they had knowledge that it was going to those defendants and so forth. They wanted it for that purpose. And the question is what you thought it was. And then again they'll say that they don't believe you. It'll get down to that. Wm. Rogers: Dash, etc. Pres. Nixon: There again, though, course they have a route to this. LaRue. He broke down and cried, I guess. J. Ehrlichman: That's a - right. Are you going to have spaghetti tonight? Wm Rogers: Spaghetti and singing Toscanini. Pres. Nixon: Well, Bill. You go ahead. I'll - let them go home. It's possible we may ask your advice tomorrow with all - Wm. Rogers: I have reason to feel good that you got John Wilson. HR Haldeman: We sure appreciate your help. Wm. Rogers: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: He was enormously gratified to hear that you had recommended him. HR Haldeman: We told him you had suggested him and it was the only name you could suggest and he said that, "Bill, and I have been on the same side and on opposite sides. He wouldn't speak to me on one matter." J. Ehrlichman: It was on the Swiss deal - HR Haldeman: Something he wouldn't speak to me - never (unintelligible) worked over here three days a week and never saw President Eisenhower. Never got an autographed picture and so we said, "Maybe in this case that could be arranged." Pres. Nixon: Provided he had nothing to do with Watergate! J. Ehrlichman: He's very clean by the looks of it. Pres. Nixon: Well, so are you. Damn it! J. Haldeman: OK. Good bye, Mr. President. Pres. Nixon: I'm glad he feels good about having him come over here. HR Haldeman: Yeah. Well, I don't know about that. I don't know anything about lawyers. I never had one before so. For exactly reasons Bill thought we wouldn't like it - he's an old man and we won't like working - I do like him. Pres. Nixon: How old is he? Seventy? John Dean: Seventy-two. Well, he's well-preserved. He has some difficulties. But I'll tell you the guy has got - his mind isn't slow at all. He is right with us and then some. He's got an abundance of stories Pres. Nixon: Sure. John Dean: Well, I fell pretty good about him. Pres. Nixon: Well, it's good to have him. Very good. It's a fight. HR Haldeman: I need - a - he is so devoted to other things. He's just devoted to the cause. HR Haldeman: He said, "It's a great honor to meet you men." Pres. Nixon: What is his reaction to the whole damned thing? Comic tragedy? Tragedy of Errors? HR Haldeman: He didn't characterize it. He didn't, ah - Pres. Nixon: Hello. Have you been busy? Yes. How did it go? I've heard that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for later. That's right. Either way. That's right. Sure. Well, get a question about whether I talked to Mitchell. Huh? Yeah, Mitchell. But there was a time set. From this period on. From the 21st on, did you talk to Mitchell? Very good. (unintelligible) Very good. How are you? Good luck. (unintelligible) Well. I just feel that, I just went through that, now they may have told you that the basic heart of the matter - J. Ehrlichman: Well, I tell you. I think you've put him in a box on that. They are going to have to have some damn good reason for that Sirica thing. Pres. Nixon: Dean's credibility is totally destroyed you know. HR Haldeman: Dean (inaudible) Pres. Nixon: Sure, Dean was in charge of the investigation. Did they ask him that? Yes. I put it up to Ron and I made this point to Ron. "You know Dean somehow has sold out the White House, the Administration, etc." HR Haldeman: That's a good statement. It is a good idea. It puts you exactly in the position that you should be in now. Pres. Nixon: We'll get kicked by the press on it. HR Haldeman: For giving in on Ervin, etc. Pres. Nixon: Giving in on Ervin. Oh Ervin's great - Hell, that doesn't bother me a bit. I was always ready to give in on Ervin and I said, "This is very satisfactory now. We have now accomplished our purpose. This is a good deal. I said, "It not only applies to this case but it can apply to other things." I ad libbed that when I said it. I worked it in. HR Haldeman: It was a very good answer. Pres. Nixon: No, I shouldn't pick on the press but, "why did the President act so late on this case? Why didn't he act earlier on this matter? He had the charges floating around." The answer is that they are charges that were just floating. I mean, I think really, that's true, newspaper charges and so forth. J. Ehrlichman: They were all relying on Dean, frankly. HR Haldeman: Well speed was not of the essence in this case. It wasn't a matter of whereby moving quickly we would stop something. It was done. It was a matter now of doing it properly. Not quickly. Pres. Nixon: That's right, Bob. That's the point of the whole Garment thing. There is this tendency John, to talk, and basically I thought he was a (unintelligible) but he was totally nonplussed by that. HR Haldeman: He said, "Where's the Attorney General?" He's taken himself out of it. Wilson said, "Where's the Deputy Attorney General?" He's not involved in it. Where's the Chief District Attorney? Where's Titus? Who should be on top of this? Why did Silbert call me instead of Titus? Silbert - he's an old boy from the Justice Department and they band together." He said, "Did John Dean ever work for the Justice Department?" He also said, "I bet you those lawyers that Dean has - and Magruder has - both were old Justice Department types." He says that Glanzer is a very bad operator. He knows him well. He doesn't know Silbert but he knows Glanzer very well. Says he's a bad guy. (Unintelligible.) Pres. Nixon: Well, don't you both agree though, John and Bob? HR Haldeman: He did it. But I've heard he was the L.A. Times leak this morning. Pres. Nixon: I knew about the leak. It was going to come yesterday. HR Haldeman: No, I don't think it was intended as that. And I don't - not because it triggered us, but because it set the stage. HR Haldeman: It let out ahead of time that the White House was going to move on something. And then you did. Pres. Nixon: Well, did that so - try say the White House was going to move? Oh, oh, oh. Heads are going to roll. That probably came directly from Dean. I think Dean did that. HR Haldeman: "White House likely to admit some Watergate responsibility - will have a dramatic admission of whether one or more high level officials bear responsibility." It doesn't say White House officials. Your action now saying something substantial will develop, and then when the Mitchell bomb breaks, that's all going to fit together rather, rather - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Yeah (unintelligible), about that - Tell us about that ransacking and (unintelligible). It's been about years ago. It's about not letting (unintelligible). John Dean: He said it was 22,000. Was the difference in money material? Can a case be made out of that? Did he keep the money or was there something about that? Pres. Nixon: He called the same day, too, didn't he? HR Haldeman: No, he called - the next day. He called within twenty-four hours. That was the next day. Testified on Thursday and called on Friday. J. Ehrlichman: They are using every lever they can lay their hands on - these guys that say that. HR Haldeman: I saw on ABC news tonight, which also fits into all this. It was in the last three weeks in the White House, Haldeman has been coming down very hard on everybody: "If you have anything to say to say it now. This was the message that was given to Mitchell Saturday at the White House. Haldeman evinced no protection and no apologies. Anyone and everything will be disclosed." It should have been Ehrlichman instead of Haldeman, or get out White House for cracking down hard on the Watergate. It's not bad. It's a damned good position to be in. And when Ziegler talked to him he said, "I can't give you anything official on that but off the record you are not going off base." Pres. Nixon: Was Bill Gill on that one? HR Haldeman: Not tonight. Gill called and asked for confirmation and said he was doing with the story and he wanted Ziegler's comment. Ziegler said, "I can't give you any comment." Pres. Nixon: The story probably isn't even out. HR Haldeman: Well, that's what I said to Ron, "Hold the statement until tomorrow," and looked up my story (unintelligible) was on. No. It will be on. It's on. There's another item. Pres. Nixon: The right day too. We had to get it out. (Unintelligible.) HR Haldeman: That's right. That's right. The Post won't put it in tomorrow. If the Post had something to go with tomorrow, I would say they wouldn't go. They'll hold up now and watch for something. They are playing the long game. Pres. Nixon: I get your point, John. On the (unintelligible), I think we, I think we have sped the process up. This kind of stuff, this kind of stuff here would have had stories for three of four months. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: That Ervin. Right. We get into the Grand Jury and then they get an indictment. John Dean: Well, there's no question that it's the best way compared to the Ervin process. It is essential to go this way. Pres. Nixon: That's right. If it weren't for the fact (unintelligible) possibility of (unintelligible). I (unintelligible) my theory to take this thing to the Grand Jury. J. Ehrlichman: Yep. John Dean: We have to face the possibility of indictments and those would have to come anyway. They wouldn't have let you get away with it. Pres. Nixon: Well, I think what would happen for instance with Ervin's problem. They would be saying, "We refer this to the Grand Jury." John Dean: They would have murdered us. Something would be out every minute. Demanding that you fire everybody. Demanding that you do this and that. J. Ehrlichman: Well, as a matter of fact, you might have turned the set up some day and watched your White House Counsel crap - or the glorious television. It would be at least surprising. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Oh. It's done up there? John Dean: Sure, he pulls it up there. Pres. Nixon: Let's face it, up to this thing, Dean handled a lot of stuff well. HR Haldeman: That's right. Yes. J. Ehrlichman: I would hate to have you appear in the position of not, (unintelligible) sort of conditionally holding the job open much beyond the time that Dean is - Pres. Nixon: I'll say this. I think that one thing for sure John is - I think that I've got to play, I want to play, I know the Dean thing very well. We have played it fairly well. I think what we ought to do - make our deal or not with Dean within a week. I don't see how Dean can possibly miss being involved in whatever they put out on Magruder. He can't miss being - and the way this guy talks, I think all of you, all of you, everybody may get it. J. Ehrlichman: He may get it. He's had (unintelligible) go around and talk with the U.S. Attorney types. I think we may have Wilson go over on the Hill (unintelligible) and say, OK, you are about to ruin these guys. I just want you to know that they are going to have to go out and protect themselves." You are going to be in a knotty problem. (Unintelligible) I mean. He has quite a close relationship with Titus. He's not going to get much of a total on this statement, and he's going to make it, anything he can for, not immunity, but functional immunity, so - where he doesn't need to make a side deal with the boys and they can grant immunity. And that would be my hunch. Pres. Nixon: Alright, we shall go over - come in. John Dean: Hello, Mr. President. Pres. Nixon: Same old thing, huh? J. Ehrlichman: I would force him to go to Sirica. - Pres. Nixon: Put that in the library. J. Ehrlichman: Showing the Judge what kind of a witness this is. Come on, get the Hill off the hook of the Executive Branch by having the Judge grant the immunity. Pres. Nixon: The Judge can attack that statement. J. Ehrlichman: You are putting yourself with the angels on that. Pres. Nixon: I am just saying that immunity is not granted to any major - J. Ehrlichman: I think that will be read as relating to Mitchell and three or four of that ilk as well. Pres. Nixon: Oh, sure. John Dean: They may decide not to do this Pres. Nixon: That's the point. John Dean: Dean will be (unintelligible) or it could be done quickly. Pres. Nixon: But I have told the big five, I told the Assistant Attorney General, specifically, that nobody should be granted immunity in any case. Rogers agrees with this and - (unintelligible). John Dean: The other point that our attorney makes, which is significant: "That's right, the Judge can grant immunity, but that in the Executive, only the Attorney General can grant it." That holds somewhere else too. Pres. Nixon: Dean is the only one who can sink Haldeman or Ehrlichman. John Dean: How am I going to explain that, after putting out a statement? J. Ehrlichman: What do you say, "Dean is some little clerk?" He's my Counsel. Pres. Nixon: That's right, he's involved in the Gray thing. They are not going to throw the whole thing in there. I am thinking whether to see Dean again unless it's useful - I don't think you can control him, he's fanatic. If you feel it would be useful, let me know. J. Ehrlichman: I will tell you what is lurking in the back of my mind is that, based on the chain of circumstances, Dean may be provoked to make a public statement which is slanderous and hostile. Pres. Nixon: Another thing. I would like the libel suits. I think both of you, and Bob particularly, you ought to get yourself a libel lawyer, Bob, and check the or have Wilson check and use the most vicious libel lawyer there is. I'd sue every (expletive deleted) (unintelligible). There have been stories over this period of time. That will make that also helps with public opinion. Sue right down the line. It doesn't make any difference now about the taking depositions and the rest, does it? The important thing is the story's big and I think you ought to go out and sue people for libel. HR Haldeman: Do you mean Senator Weicker? Pres. Nixon: He's covered. J. Ehrlichman: Oh, he's not, not when he was on Issues and Answers. HR Haldeman: (unintelligible) or using newspaper interviews. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. HR Haldeman: It was not on the Floor, he's too buzry, stupid. Pres. Nixon: The point is the thing with Weicker (unintelligible) is whether he said - how did he say that? Was it libelous? HR Haldeman: I think so. I better ask a lawyer. Pres. Nixon: Was he that specific? HR Haldeman: He was damned specific. Pres. Nixon: That Haldeman knew? HR Haldeman: Yes. "That Haldeman directed and Haldeman was in personal command of all personnel." I repeat, "all personnel at the Re-election Committee." Pres. Nixon: Good, sue him. J. Ehrlichman: I think you should. HR Haldeman: He said that I was in personal command of Liddy and Hunt. Pres. Nixon: I would sue. HR Haldeman: And McCord (unintelligible) I have never met or heard of him. Pres. Nixon: John, this libel thing. You may as well get at the libel thing and have yourself a little fun. J. Ehrlichman: Might make expenses. HR Haldeman: Operating procedure-wise we've got to, or my recommendation would be that we should maintain a facade of normal operations as long as you have taken this position - I don't think we want to look like something is radically changed. Pres. Nixon: Nope. HR Haldeman: Then I think we should come into the office at the Cal time in the morning - and a Pres. Nixon: Right. And have your staff meeting, plus you will be the meeting tomorrow with the energy conference and you should be at the Quadriad meeting. You are right HR Haldeman: Go and go as we go along. Pres. Nixon: Unless and until something happens. Now the only exception here is Dean. HR Haldeman: Dean should not, but nobody would know whether he does his normal job or not. But see that nobody gives a damn, he is not visible. Pres. Nixon: Well, the thing that - HR Haldeman: And be has been out of here for a month anyway. J. Ehrlichman: Any objection to going to Florida this weekend, if you go? Pres. Nixon: Would you like to go down? J. Ehrlichman: Yes HR Haldeman: I don't expect to get much sunshine but - J. Ehrlichman: It might help. HR Haldeman: I think we should unless our lawyer keeps us here and he could. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: We normally would and I think we should. Pres. Nixon: Oh, I think you should Bob. Right, now understand that if they crack this - HR Haldeman: Oh well, then that would be a problem. J. Ehrlichman: One concession that I would ask and that is that people on leave be considered for use of Camp David occasionally. Pres. Nixon: Let me say, what I had in mind. I want you to go forward and if this thing comes out which I can't believe, I want you to go forward at all costs to beat the damned rap. They'll have one hell of a time proving it. Yours is a little tougher I think Bob, and it shouldn't bathe 300. That's why I hope you could raise with the Judge and your attorney - that at least gave you the law on that point. HR Haldeman: Yes, sir. On that point, yeah. We haven't gotten into (unintelligible) of the law at all on obstruction of Justice. J. Ehrlichman: He's briefing that tonight for us. HR Haldeman: He says it's damn tough, loose. J. Ehrlichman: He cites Glanzer as the leading authority on it. He uses it like a bludgeon. Pres. Nixon: Only if it's a (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: Oh, he hasn't given us that yet. HR Haldeman: He didn't give us the opinion. He just said, "I'll tell you on the top that it's very tough. It's Luke's law and cases go all ways." Pres. Nixon: I hope he has an opinion sometime on the case involving Dean to the effect (unintelligible) establishing HR Haldeman: Why the hell we didn't see then - Pres. Nixon: Remember I was a little suspicious of Chuck. I was not, after all, I said, "Damn it, what's he talking to these people for?" And remember the way I put it is, "He was saying, gee, I have talked to these guys and they're mind-picking." HR Haldeman: Well, they're not in error. Pres. Nixon: And I said, "I think they are taken." Remember? I said that. HR Haldeman: Yeah, sure did. Pres. Nixon: Well, I don't - I think he was being taken by the Senator. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think he figured rape was inevitable so he was going to enjoy it. Pres. Nixon: Bob - remember, I said, think they are taking Dean. HR Haldeman: Sure do. J. Ehrlichman: Well, as I said before. We beat the rap but we're damaged goods. Pres. Nixon: Right, you can't go back in the government, but I will tell you one thing, you are not damaged goods as far as I am concerned. It's one hell of a thing. The point is that let's wait and see what happens before we see where we are. HR Haldeman: Sure. Pres. Nixon: We ought to expect the worst but I think that what I would like both of you to consider 50 of your time also for editing etc., and so on, with the Foundation. The Foundation is going to be a hell of a big thing, it's bound to be. These first four years are terribly important and so forth. I mean after all, you understand, that looking down the road, looking down the road, as far as - you say your Dad was good at looking down the road? HR Haldeman: Yep. Pres. Nixon: If you are indicted and tried and found innocent, it washes away. HR Haldeman: Well - Pres. Nixon: Agree? For government service, I mean. J. Ehrlichman: Or for the practice of law. Pres. Nixon: I don't think so. Really? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think so. I think so. Jeanne is furious about HR Haldeman: That isn't true John. J. Ehrlichman: It depends on the circumstances. There is nothing I can be discouraged about at this point. But I think we've just about had it. I think the odds are against it. HR Haldeman: You can always handle traffic cases - J. Ehrlichman: Well I am not too pleased with the traffic cases. Pres. Nixon: The hell with the traffic cases. Well, anyway - HR Haldeman: Well there's all kinds of things we could do. Pres. Nixon: Well I have a Foundation. I just think it is fair, I don't know whether I can find anybody to do it. I don't know whether you would even do it. Incidentally, it is terribly important that poor Kalmbach get through this thing. HR Haldeman: I think he is alright. Pres. Nixon: How could he learn? Did you talk to him there? Did Dean call him about the money? HR Haldeman: Yes, Sir. Pres. Nixon: Does he say what said? J. Ehrlichman: Dean told me that he told him what it was for. I don't believe him. Herb said that he just followed instructions, that he just went ahead and did it and sent the money back and - Pres. Nixon: They said they need it for? J. Ehrlichman: I don't even know if they told him what for. It was an emergency and they needed this money and I don't know whether he can get away with that or if it's more specific than that. Pres. Nixon: You can corroborate then Herb on that one. J. Ehrlichman: I can if Dean is the accuser. I can. Pres. Nixon: If Dean is the accuser, you can say that he told you on such and such a date that he did not tell Herb Kalmbach what the money was for. J. Ehrlichman: That he has told me - that he has told me - Pres. Nixon: That's right - that's right. HR Haldeman: If we have to get out of here, I think the Foundation funding - is one thing - but there is a lot of intrigue too - I hope to get funding for the ability to clear my name and spend the rest of my life destroying what some people like Dean and Magruder have done to the President.