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$Unique_ID{bob01222} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 17, 1973. (3:50pm - 4:35pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres ehrlichman unintelligible haldeman say hr that's get right} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 17, 1973. (3:50pm - 4:35pm) Meeting: The President, Haldeman, Ziegler and Ehrlichman, Oval Office J. Ehrlichman: This is John Ehrlichman for Bill Timmons. J. Ehrlichman: Ah, I'm in the President's office Bill, can you call - get the first page, first two lines of the second page (unintelligible). Pardon me? No, just tell him that's the statement. Bill, just go ahead and do it. Thanks. Pres. Nixon: I completed the round with Petersen and he said he completely agreed with me, that he's been arguing that with the U. S. Attorneys. He says the problem - J. Ehrlichman: He's in total control Pres. Nixon: He said the problem is (unintelligible). I said, "Well you're going to corroborate it, aren't you?" "Yes, of course." But I put it bluntly. No individual - R. Ziegler: Ya, I just want to check. Are we already to go? Pres. Nixon: I don't know if I can really make it. How late can I go? About 4:30. O. K. Don't tell anybody yet. Thank you. I'll let you know. Pres. Nixon: Quickly. The new evidence, new leaks. First, I said, I said Rogers and I talked about it and Rogers thought it was totally wrong to immunize the President's counsel. Rogers did say that. However, I talked about the leaks in the Grand Jury (unintelligible) Mitchell, Dean. I said I just want you to know that you are vulnerable. He said, "Well I never gave them substance, I just eave them (unintelligible) on how they did and so forth and so forth." He says, After all, it's my responsibility." But anyway, I don't know. I didn't get far with that (unintelligible). He talked to Pat Gray and Pat Gray has now told him that he destroyed the packet. He just shakes his head. HR Haldeman: Why would Gray do that? Pres. Nixon: Gray was told it was political, was told to destroy. I don't know Gray was told it was material, actually nothing to do with Watergate. He was told to destroy it, but Petersen says that's that. Here's the situation, basically, (unintelligible). They're going to haul him in court, have him plead guilty, put a statement out because Sirica always questions the witnesses who plead guilty. They are going to make it as broad as they can and as narrow as they can at the same time. By being as broad as they can, they are going to say that he has named certain people and they are going to name a group of people that is non-indictable co-conspirators. They're going to include everybody on that list. I said, "Is Dean going to be on that list?" He said, "Yes." He said, "Frankly (unintelligible) not include Haldeman and Ehrlichman, which gives you an option." I said, Are you telling me that if Haldeman and Ehrlichman decide to take leave, that you will not then proceed with the prosecution. "No," he said, "I don't mean that." He said, "What I mean is that they are not going to appear on that list and that (unintelligible) Grand Jury and make case there (unintelligible). So there's the J. Ehrlichman: Well, whether we take leave or not doesn't effect the list that they read off. Pres. Nixon: Yes. Yes. J. Ehrlichman: Oh, it does? Yes, it does. They will put us on the list if we don't take leave? Pres. Nixon: Yes, because otherwise, he says, he says Sirica is going to question Magruder and he's going to question (unintelligible) and it appears (unintelligible). If he does that, then it will appear that the Justice Department again is covering up. Two questions: One, should we go forward with an announcement today or not, or should - J. Ehrlichman: Well, from your standpoint, you must. Even so. This thing will get away from you otherwise. Pres. Nixon: Well, the real question, I suppose, John is (unintelligible). I don't think we can - here's the whole point, in effect - if the - your names will probably be on the list. That's what he's saying unless you decide not to, decide that you're not (unintelligible). HR Haldeman: It isn't that (unintelligible), we have to resign. The (unintelligible) doesn't accomplish anything. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) HR Haldeman: What does he mean from that? I don't understand? J. Ehrlichman: The guy to gain from that is Dean. HR Haldeman: Ya, they're putting us in the same bag with him. J. Ehrlichman: Ya. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) he said Dean's lawyers say Dean is going to make a case against this Administration. They're going to try this Administration. That's what he said. So, I guess that's where we stand with Dean. J. Ehrlichman: Well, it's as broad as it is long as far as I'm concerned. If I'm to take leave - you think I should - that is or has the same effect as being - Pres. Nixon: As resigning? (unintelligible) taking leave you couldn't come back. J. Ehrlichman: Ya, I'll never come back. Pres. Nixon: Of course not. I understand that. J. Ehrlichman: On the other hand, if I'm indicted and take leave, and then I'm acquitted, I could come back. But to take leave and then not appear on the Magruder list, it's a confession. Pres. Nixon: That's right. So I think their (unintelligible) approach just doesn't work. HR Haldeman: Well, then you look worse by that than you do the other way. You look better to have us on the list, than to have us take leave and then not be on the list. J. Ehrlichman: Cause that looks like you're covering up, that it hasn't come out. Pres. Nixon: I think so, too. HR Haldeman: If we're going to be on the list, so be it! Pres. Nixon: That's right. I think you're right. HR Haldeman: I think we're in a terrible - These guys are working in a most bloodthirsty way. They've lied to Strachan. They've told him they had all this stuff. They've not told him what his rights are properly. I'm sure his lawyer has gotten it straightened out, but it's really something. J. Ehrlichman: They're trying to get him. HR Haldeman: Trying to get him to take a cop-out and they won't make a deal. They told Strachan if he covered everything that he had. everybody he knows, they assured him they already had it anyway Pres. Nixon: That's a tactic. HR Haldeman: They said you, Strachan, have a chance of getting out because you'll become a witness and not a defendant, but they will not give him immunity. Pres. Nixon: That is immunity, however. HR Haldeman: Well, unless - it keeps their options open and his closed. Pres. Nixon: Strachan is (unintelligible). HR Haldeman: (expletive removed), I hope so. And the (expletive removed) you know Strachan made that mistake on the 350, called Silbert the next day and said, "I would like to correct that. I made a mistake." They said, "Fine, come up in the morning and we'll straighten it out." He went up Monday morning, and they laughed at him and said we're not going to put you before the Grand Jury. See that's when they kicked him around, yesterday morning. Then today when he went in they said, "We will not let you correct your statement on the 350, we've got you on a perjury count." Pres. Nixon: That's not true. HR Haldeman: That's what they told him. It certainly is not fair. HR Haldeman: Well, apparently by the law. Pres. Nixon: I think under the law if you go forth and volunteer something - HR Haldeman: But they wouldn't let him go in, so he didn't volunteer, but he sure did it constructively as far as - Pres. Nixon: Well, shall we get to work? Shall I just go out and read it. J. Ehrlichman: I think so. I'm having Timmons just read this first part to Ervin. Pres. Nixon: All members of the White House staff will appear (unintelligible) when requested by the Committee and will testify under oath and answer all proper - Are you getting all this or should I get a girl in? J. Ehrlichman: Voluntarily, when requested by the Committed O.K. Pres. Nixon: The next part is what I'm concerned about. "I began new inquiries," shall we say? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I don't know. Pres. Nixon: "I began new inquiries into this matter as a result of serious charges which were reported publicly and privately." Should we say that? J. Ehrlichman: Publicly, comma "which in some cases were ported publicly." Pres. Nixon: "Four weeks ago we," Why don't we say, shall we set a date? That sounds a hell of a lot stronger if we set a date. J. Ehrlichman: All right. Pres. Nixon: "On March 21, I began new inquiries," Strike that. "I ordered an investigation, new inquiries throughout the government -" J. Ehrlichman: How about saying, "On March 21 as a result of serious charges which were reported publicly and" - Pres. Nixon: "Some of which were reported, publicly and some of which were reported privately to me J. Ehrlichman: "Some of which I subsequently" Pres. Nixon: "As a result of serious charges reported publicly and privately" - J. Ehrlichman: "Some of which were reported publicly" - and then not say about the result of them. I - Pres. Nixon: In other words, "On March 21 we started an investigation because of the public hearings." J. Ehrlichman: That's right. Pres. Nixon: "As a result of serious charges reported publicly - publicly reported - "I began intensive new inquiries into this whole matter." I think we better get Petersen back in here. J. Ehrlichman: Name him. Pres. Nixon: Ya. After all, this Kleindienst thing is very general (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: "And Assistant Attorney General Petersen." Pres. Nixon: "Assistant Attorney General Petersen have met to review the facts at length in my investigation and the process of the Department of Justice Investigation." How's that? "I can report today that there have been major new developments in the case." Right? That sound right? J. Ehrlichman: How about just saying, "Have been major developments in the case concerning which I should not be more specific now, except to say that real progress has been made." Pres. Nixon: "Major developments in the case, concerning which - specific - which would be improper for me to be more specific now except to say that real progress has been made in getting to the bottom." What do you say, "in getting to the bottom of this matter?" J. Ehrlichman: "Has been made in exposing the truth." Pres. Nixon: "In finding the truth." J. Ehrlichman: All right. Pres. Nixon: "In this whole matter." J. Ehrlichman: Well, we've already said matter. Pres. Nixon: Well. J. Ehrlichman: "I can report today that major developments in the case. concerning which it would be improper to be more specific now, except to say that real progress has been made in finding the truth." Pres. Nixon: "Real progress has been made in finding the truth." And then you go on to the (unintelligible). J. Ehrlichman: If you don't mind. Pres. Nixon: I don't want to put the immunity thing in. I don't think there's a hell of a lot gained by saying it publicly. J. Ehrlichman: Except - Pres. Nixon: All right. "If any person in the Executive Branch is indicted by the Grand Jury, my policy will be to immediately suspended" - all we (unintelligible) of what we know is going to happen? Should we say "indicted"? Why don't we just leave it "indicted" and not indicate what charges are made? Don't you agree? J. Ehrlichman: I think so. I think "indicted" ought to be the test. Pres. Nixon: "Indicted by the Grand Jury." My policy would be, "If he is convicted," and then I would say, "If he is convicted, he would be automatically discharged." And then, the way I could put it, "I expressed to the appropriate authorities my views that no individual holding a position of major importance should be given immunity from prosecution. That means that no person can expect" - J. Ehrlichman: Yep, this is fine. Pres. Nixon: I don't think I want to say "lead to believe." Do we have to say that? J. Ehrlichman: No, I was just trying to get you off the hook, and say, you know, well, this - How about going on with the next sentence? Pres. Nixon: "The judicial process is moving to get all the facts." Or. "Moving -" J. Ehrlichman: "moving ahead as it should." Pres. Nixon: "Moving ahead as it should. As I have said before, all government employees, especially members of the White House staff, are to fully cooperate with the Grand Jury." Or do we want to say "Grand Jury"? J. Ehrlichman: How about "fully cooperate" - period. Pres. Nixon: "Fully cooperate in this investigation." "to fully cooperate with law enforcement authorities." How's that? J. Ehrlichman: Ervin and Baker are out of pocket. I - I don't want to use the next sentence, John. J. Ehrlichman: All right. Pres. Nixon: Then I think the last sentence should be - I think if he puts that in there we're going to have a hell of a tough time. (unintelligible) HR Haldeman: I think if he'll cover the truth - Pres. Nixon: Yep. HR Haldeman: That's what he's got to do. Answer their questions truthfully. Pres. Nixon: Why didn't he say, "Sure I'll be a witness." Why didn't he just say that, take their offer? Maybe that's what he said. "I'll take your offer." HR Haldeman: I think that's what we want him to do. Pres. Nixon: I think what you should do is say, "I don't have anything to hide. I'll take your offer," and just make the point. HR Haldeman: Given that offer, he doesn't have to volunteer anything. All he has to do is answer their questions. Pres. Nixon: That's right Bob, he should just take their offer. Believe me, we don't have to have (unintelligible). He isn't trying to hide anything. HR Haldeman: I'd feel fine with his doing that, cause - so he says some things that are damaging. They are only slightly damaging, and we've had plenty of damaging things already. Pres. Nixon: That's right. Bob, just tell him to take it. All right? Tell him to take it but tell them the mere truth. You see, they think it is worse than it is. They think he is covering up and they are wrong. That's what it really gets down to. HR Haldeman: They are trying to confuse him. That's what has him bothered. The poor guy. What's really worried him is that he's covered everything with Dean, every step of the way. Everything he has done, he's talked with Dean about it over the last year and he's scared to death Dean - on make up something or take something that is partly right and twist it, which is what Dean is doing, and hang him on it. And I think what he's got to do is just go with what he believes is correct and hang with it. Pres. Nixon: Don't you think we are right (unintelligible) tell the U. S. Attorney, "Fine. You want to name Haldeman and Ehrlichman. You just (unintelligible) they put you on as unindictable co- conspirators, then they've got a case to prove. Now they aren't going to do that unless they figure they can prove the case, so that would give them the problem. I think his argument is, and I must say I don't know what to hell Petersen is up to (unintelligible) I think, on the other hand, it looks like. Let's look at that. HR Haldeman: That makes his case for him. That makes his case for him. Pres. Nixon: Maybe you're right. I was going to suggest that we would get back, call you, and we get Rogers over here. And I think in this instance, you and Ehrlichman with Rogers can just sit down and talk about this? HR Haldeman: I think so. Yes. Pres. Nixon: You don't have any other lawyer? Would you mind getting him over at 5:00 p.m. HR Haldeman: We're meeting with our lawyer at 4:30 to 5:30, which is the only time we could get him. Would you want me to get him in at 5:30? Pres. Nixon: Sure, Bob, my time is your time. HR Haldeman: Well, I don't want to screw up your time. Pres. Nixon: You're not. HR Haldeman: That was the only time he could take us. He's taking time out of a deposition. Pres. Nixon: I understand, but hope he can learn from it in that time. HR Haldeman: Well, we'll give him a quick fill and get him started on it. That's all we can do now, but we need to get started on it. Pres. Nixon: I less (unintelligible) may resign. J. Haldeman: That would be a very foolish thing for him to do. Pres. Nixon: Hmm? HR Haldeman: That would he a very foolish thing for him to do. Pres. Nixon: He didn't say that. But, I meant, you know how strongly he feels. He's wrong. He's wrong, Bob. Look, the point is, (unintelligible) throwing you to the wolves with Dean. What does that accomplish? I don't know what it accomplishes. Except the President learns the facts and as a result of learning the facts (unintelligible). I say, "Fellas, you've been charged and I know that Dean has made some charm." Right? HR Haldeman: There's another way you could do it. John won't buy this if I don't. I won't do it if John won't. We've got to do it together. Either one of us has to hang together playing this game. But, maybe we request of you a leave of absence on the basis of the information you have, which we have, because we've been involved in the investigation too. Now if we're going to be on that list, we're going to have to ask for a leave of absence anyway, if he puts the list out, and has us on it. Pres. Nixon: It's going to be out. And I don't know that you'll be on it. That's the point. We've got to see. Nevertheless, you will be called. But we've always talked about being called to the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: That's right. J. Haldeman: And said that we would appear. You made a statement weeks ago saying that anybody in the White House would welcome the opportunity to testify before the Grand Jury. Ah. Do you automatically suspend any witness whose called before a Grand Jury? Of course not. Pres. Nixon: Well, now, if you come on that list, the only problem here is that (unintelligible). J. Ehrlichman: Oops. Pres. Nixon: The problem we have here, John, as I was just saying (unintelligible) Dean's lawyers, are they going to try this Administration? J. Ehrlichman: Believe me, everybody is going to try this Administration regardless of what (unintelligible). Ervin's going to try this Administration. J. Haldeman: We went through your statement. Why don't we go see the lawyers? Why don't we re-group at 5:30 and decide then J. Ehrlichman: You have the first page intact? Pres. Nixon: Did she use the speech typewriter? I don't want to go through this. J. Ehrlichman: Take this back and put it on the speech typewriter. She's running it off on the typewriter now. Pres. Nixon: Well, maybe it's too soon for Rogers. Well, I guess we just let Dean go ahead and try the Administration. J. Ehrlichman: He's going to do his work anyway, with or without immunity. Ervin is going to get him up there if he has immunity or not and will take him over the jumps. What you've done here is to lay a ground rule for Ervin on immunity which is going to be very tough for him to live with if there are Ervin hearings. But eventually there will be Ervin hearings. I don't think there's much (unintelligible). The more - Pres. Nixon: There will be Ervin hearings, Bob. J. Ehrlichman: The more battles the President wins, like the economical stabilization performance, the more urgent the Ervin hearings become; it's the only thing they have left, now. You're winning all the big ones. HR Haldeman: We better leave now. It's 4:30. J. Ehrlichman: Yep, ya. HR Haldeman: If you want to see Bill at 5:00 p.m. ahead of us, we can join you at 5:30. Pres. Nixon: You may not be ready by then. J. Ehrlichman: He can only stay an hour. Pres. Nixon: Fine. I'll see him at 5:00. And the situation that you have here is a (unintelligible). Dean (unintelligible) Administration if I'm wrong? Damn, no, it can't. J. Ehrlichman: I'll tell you as we lay this out, and I'll be anxious to see what this lawyer has to say, Dean's testimony may not be admissible. Pres. Nixon: On what grounds? J. Ehrlichman: That his communication to us was a communication to you, and vice versa. As an alter ego to the President. Pres. Nixon: I don't have any separate existence. J. Ehrlichman: But you have to assert privilege, in a sense, but I don't know what kind of political problems that make (unintelligible) Solicitor General, as a disability, strictly from that standpoint (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Would you discuss with your lawyer the legal (unintelligible) and let's think about this business, about whether - Ron? R. Ziegler: Ya Pres. Nixon: Come on in. R. Ziegler: Len needs the ground rules before he calls, and he's in my office. Could you fill him in? J. Ehrlichman: All he has to do is read that to them. Period. He doesn't have any comment, he doesn't have any reflection. O.K.? Pres. Nixon: Who is this? J. Ehrlichman: Len Garment. He's going to call back. He's just reading the first page since we can't get Ervin. Look, I don't want him to get into an argument with him. R. Ziegler: O.K. All right, fine. Then John, afterwards when they ask me what the ground rules are, I'll just say - J. Ehrlichman: Up to the Committee (unintelligible) R. Ziegler: We have plenty of video tape recorders, so there's no film problem. Pres. Nixon: They got it yet? Bring it in. R. Ziegler: Ya. Did John raise with you the couple of questions in terms of the next day or so? And afterwards just say, "Is Dean still in charge of the investigation?" We ought to just say, "No." Pres. Nixon: Just say that the President - that we discussed and that, "No." that the President is dealing with that the Assistant Attorney General, Mr. Petersen, is in charge of the investigation. R. Ziegler: Then, secondly, they will say does the President stand by the August 29 statement that no one presently employed in the White House had knowledge and so forth? There. I think, I suggested to John, that this is an operative statement - position as it stands. Pres. Nixon: You could say that the August 29 statement - that was the report that was made to the President by White House Counsel at that time - and the facts will determine whether that statement is correct, and now it would be interfering with the judicial process to comment further. R. Ziegler: I will just say that this is the operative statement. Pres. Nixon: You're not going to answer questions today are you? R. Ziegler: No, no. But I mean if I walk into the Press Room they'll be pounding on my door. Pres. Nixon: Of course, Ron. Go ahead. Don't (expletive removed) on Dean. R. Ziegler: No, I'm not going to. Pres. Nixon: He is, just say he - R. Ziegler: I'll try to avoid it altogether, but I just want to get guidance. Then I could give the wires some background on how aggressively and how much time you've spent on this the past three weeks and so forth. Should I do a little of that?