Multimedia Mania

home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search

/ Multimedia Mania / abacus-multimedia-mania.iso / dp / 0121 / 01211.txt < prev next >

Wrap

Text File | 1993-07-27 | 22KB | 476 lines

$Unique_ID{bob01211} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 16, 1973. (12:00pm - 12:31pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres haldeman hr say get am len ron ehrlichman} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 16, 1973. (12:00pm - 12:31pm) Meeting: President Nixon and HR Haldeman, Oval Office ---------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential actions deleted ---------------------------- Pres. Nixon: Now we got a plan on how we stage this damn thing in the first stages. Ron's got it all worked out. We've gone over, and then he's got the use of this Advisory Group and - Pres. Nixon: What does this amount to Bob? HR Haldeman: Well the trouble is, you can't leave that out because you get into invariables of whether you do it before or after the Magruder story is out. He feels, and they all feel, I guess, that you have to establish your position and what you have done and the scenario works pretty well on that. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, but you don't do a backgrounder on that. HR Haldeman: It works out pretty well on that. The ideal time to do it is when you break the case. Get Petersen over here. You run your backgrounder, tell your story. You know, I got into this and this is what I have done. Or Ziegler does, or however you do it. I guess you will do it. And then you say this has led, as we fully suspected it would, to the next major step. That Mr. Petersen here will describe which is the status of the case today. And then Petersen says "As the President has reviewed these steps, and I can tell you today that we have broken the case and that Jeb Magruder, one of the principal figures in this, has given us a full report on exactly what did transpire. It clearly establishes by his own testimony his own guilt as a high official of the Re-Election Committee and provides charges against others which we are pursuing with the same diligence that we have up to now, and I will not discuss the others. We will get to that and report to you periodically as developments take place. But this is following up proper processes and I am not going to jeopardize the rights of others. He could say that I am not going to say anything, and nothing should be said, that will jeopardize the rights of the defendants, but I also am not going to say anything that will jeopardize our prosecution because we are moving on people and we are going to get them." Ron will mention to you, and Steve chatted with me, Len Garment, as you would expect, has followed your orders that he steep himself in Watergate. He has steeped himself in the Watergate and now says it is imperative that he meet with you for at least five minutes, preferably prior to 2 o'clock today, to report to you. And what he will say to you is that it is clear to him that you are in possession of knowledge that you cannot be in possession of without acting on. And that your action has to include cutting cleanly and that you've got to remove me and probably Ehrlichman, although he has an interesting thesis, according to Ron - I have not talked to Len - which is at least worth considering, which is that I move ahead of the game now, put out my whole story, including the factual details without pulling any punches of my, you know, that $350,000 fund. Yes, I sent it back to the Committee - and I go into specifics. That I understand that Mr. Strachan delivered it to Mr. LaRue and that my motive was not to provide funds for the defendants. My motive was to move these funds back where they belonged, but I have to agree that I fully recognized that LaRue's motive in accepting money was, as I had been told at least, was a need to provide money for the defendants, to provide legal fees and to provide support for their families. And I acted at all times at the instigation of and through John Dean. In other words I didn't do any of this. John Dean came to me and said we need this and I knew I wanted to get rid of the money and said this is the way to do it, etc. And I must say that John Dean, the President's Counsel, through whom I was working and who was my only contact in this matter, at no time advised me that I was involved in doing anything that was illegal or improper and I would assume and have to act on the assumption that Dean got away with it. Pres. Nixon: Now, look. I don't want to get into the position of - HR Haldeman: Hanging someone else? Well, but he is going to have hung himself at that point in time. Pres. Nixon: But the whole point is whether he then gets off and gets on other things. See what I mean? I don't want him - he is in possession of knowledge about things that happened before this. I told him that was all National Security. HR Haldeman: OK. Len makes a rather interesting case which is that we have to look at this in terms of the President and the Presidency. Pres. Nixon: Right. I'll see him. HR Haldeman: That is what we all say. Pres. Nixon: Does he know what I have already done? HR Haldeman: I don't know. Pres. Nixon: Peterson and all the rest? HR Haldeman: I don't know. Ehrlichman and Ziegler feel you shouldn't see him and that Ron should just assure him that you have all these facts and that you are moving and what he wants done is in the process of being done. Pres. Nixon: Why don't you call and tell him (unintelligible) in and tell him that now - HR Haldeman: I don't think I should tell him that. John should. Pres. Nixon: I see your point, because he is asking for you to be fired? HR Haldeman: Well he is suggesting a route. He mentioned a case that is a better route for me and is a better route for the Presidency. Pres. Nixon: But you would be the first one to go out? HR Haldeman: Yeah. I go out and I resign. I resign and tell my story publicly. Not to the jury, but do it publicly in some fashion and tell the whole story, all the details. And say that I am absolutely clear in my own mind that I have done nothing legally or morally wrong; that that might be up to the Grand Jury to determine. Then his argument is that I am in a position - he thinks that I can bring something like that off. He feels that Ehrlichman should not try to do it because he doesn't think he can bring it off and he thinks, therefore, you've got to cover up and try to hold Ehrlichman in but if you get a problem you will just have to let him go. But at that point it is a pretty rough spot anyway. Pres. Nixon: Yeah - we just don't know what the situation is on Ehrlichman, on what there is. HR Haldeman: No. And there are more potentials there than there are on mine. Mine I think we have them all out and we know them all and Ehrlichman's - Pres. Nixon: Well, there may be more potentials. I think Dean, frankly, is more inclined to give Ehrlichman a screwing than anybody else. I have that feeling. HR Haldeman: Well, and if Colson gets hung up anywhere, he will go on Ehrlichman and not on me. He can't get me because I didn't work with him on any of that stuff. John did. Pres. Nixon: What would this be, Bob? Would this be before I said anything? HR Haldeman: I don't think so. I don't know. Ron just raised this at the last minute. He wasn't even going to raise it and then he said, "Well, you might as well know how Len spins it out." Pres. Nixon: What the hell information has Len got that I don't have? HR Haldeman: None. Pres. Nixon: Is he just basing this on minutia, this, that or the other thing? HR Haldeman: He doesn't have anything you don't have. All he says - he says it isn't a question of the legal thing. He said there is no question but that you could get through the whole legal thing but then look up the damn road you have to go through all these trials and everything. They are going to get back into it again there Pres. Nixon: That's right. HR Haldeman: They are going to get into the money and where the money went. If we haven't told them by then, they are going to drag it out of us drop by drop. Pres. Nixon: That's right. HR Haldeman: I can see it is a weak appearing case in terms of what did I think I was giving the money back to them for. Where did the money go? Now there is no question about that, some of it. I don't think all of it did. But I knew where some of it was going to go. Pres. Nixon: But again you guys have to see what in the hell, again what LaRue testifies. What the money was for; to shut them up, or was it to provide help for their families. HR Haldeman: You see, that is the whole point. In my viewpoint it wasn't to shut them up, but that is a hard case for anybody to believe I suppose. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, they will say it was to keep them quiet. HR Haldeman: Well, absolutely. But that - so they can't make the legal case. Pres. Nixon: Does Ron like this scenario of your going out? HR Haldeman: No. He is opposed to it. He thinks it is wrong, but he says you know I am biased so that is a judgment call that I probably shouldn't even try to make. Pres. Nixon: Rogers. I will see him this afternoon. HR Haldeman: I haven't raised that with Rogers. Pres. Nixon: Rogers has not said that either you or Ehrlichman should leave has he? HR Haldeman: But he doesn't know the facts. Pres. Nixon: Well - could you, you know really, so that - HR Haldeman: Want me to meet with him and Bill and try to fill in the facts? Pres. Nixon: I really think you - as to what the points of vulnerability are, and you can just do this cold turkey. Say I just wanted him to know this as I haven't made notes. I just want him to know this, all cold turkey. I have just made a few. Say that is what I want to talk to him about. Could you do that? And point out that it is my view, and others, that this is a damn arguable, damn hard, case. Would you mind doing that? Have him come over, I should say at 3:30 and I will see him at 4:00pm. HR Haldeman: Sure. Pres. Nixon: That would be very helpful. Pres. Nixon: I would just say, so that Len doesn't think that I don't want to see him, I just don't want him to tell me the obvious. That is the point. Could Ehrlichman just let Len know that the events have overtaken us? Is that dangerous? No, we better tell him. HR Haldeman: He knows pretty much on that. Pres. Nixon: He knows about Magruder and the rest? HR Haldeman: I don't know that he knows it in specific terms, but he has come up with the same information that John did and anybody that was looking into the picture. Pres. Nixon: Well, the reason is I think I know everything Len would be telling me - HR Haldeman: Oh, yeah. Pres. Nixon: hell you know, we talked about this a week ago. You know how you handle it. HR Haldeman: On the way to San Clemente I made the pitch for my going out ahead, but not going into it in as much detail. If I do it now with what they've got, if I do anything I have to do everything. That's Ron's point and I think he is right on that. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. What does Ron think about this, leaving out the PR: does he think we should try to tough it through? I am going to ask Rogers that, frankly. HR Haldeman: I am not sure. I think Ron would say just wait and see. You see his point is that there is no question that I will be tarnished. Pres. Nixon: The question is whether your useability, basically, - HR Haldeman: And you have to evaluate that at that point and it seems to me at that point you have the option of my saying to you that I have concluded and I will. I haven't, but I will sure say it - that I have concluded that I am tarnished to the point where I can't be useful. Pres. Nixon: Right. Your usefulness has been impaired and, therefore, we can't be useful. That's the way you put it. HR Haldeman: Sure, then I go out. Garment's statement is that then I go out and hit this, use the position that I have established that way from the outside to Pres. Nixon: To fight? HR Haldeman: Yeah, somehow or other. I don't exactly know how. I think he spells that out but Ron didn't get into it with me. And a - Pres. Nixon: Let me get some (unintelligible). Was it Ron and John Ehrlichman who said they did not think I should see him? They did not think I should bother seeing Len? On what grounds? HR Haldeman: No. Ron is the one who saw Len. Pres. Nixon: I was up so late last night. Go ahead. HR Haldeman: Yeah. Ron thought you had to see him just for internal reasons. You know, Len's so concerned about things that you almost have to see him just to keep the Pres. Nixon: Why don't I see him after I see Rogers? How would that be? HR Haldeman: That you could do easily. Pres. Nixon: In other words, I will have a plan in mind. I'm going to set some thoughts in my mind. I am not going to have any trouble with them. HR Haldeman: Ziegler has been meeting with this group of Chappie Rose and Moore and they have been running out of there with (unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: Could you ask Ziegler to have Len put it on a piece of paper before I meet? That would be helpful. Tell him I am meeting with Rogers at 4:00 o'clock and would just like his recommendation on a piece of paper before that. How does that sound to you? Pres. Nixon: Let me say that I can move the Rogers thing up or down. HR Haldeman: Can you move him up to three? Pres. Nixon: Well, wait a minute. 1:30pm. I've got to get some rest this afternoon. HR Haldeman: Yeah. Still, leave it at four. You might know something by then. Pres. Nixon: Have you filled Henry in, Bob? HR Haldeman: Nope. Pres. Nixon: You haven't? He's got enough problems in Laos. I haven't. Somebody else - he seems to know of it. HR Haldeman: Well, Garment took it upon himself to go meet with Henry and Al Haig to discuss his concern about the whole situation, apparently. Pres. Nixon: Well, what the hell did he do that for? HR Haldeman: ON the basis that he thought there was a real danger and threat to the Presidency and that - Pres. Nixon: Maybe I don't want a memo from him first. What do you think? Maybe he just better do it orally. HR Haldeman: Well, John thought he should have written to you. That that is what he should have done at the beginning. Maybe you have a problem with that. That means the Secretaries got to write it up. Pres. Nixon: Yep, yep. Well just say, tell him that I am meeting with Rogers this afternoon. I think somebody should say that. Who has he put the request through? Through John? HR Haldeman: No, he just sent it up through Steve Bull. Ron knew he was. He is working with Ron now, rather than John. Pres. Nixon: Ok. HR Haldeman: You know, it is impossible. That is why I hope Rogers can stay cool and sort of above it. It is impossible for any of us - Pres. Nixon: All the concerned people. If we could get a feel. I just have a horrible feeling that we may react. Pres. Nixon: Reacting like Dean? HR Haldeman: Yes. That we are way over dramatizing. Pres. Nixon: That's my view. That's what I don't want to do either. HR Haldeman: As I say, that is self-serving too, so its - Pres. Nixon: Well, as you know of course, that would be the tendency. That is the trouble with Garment. I wanted him to get into this on the legal side. I didn't mean, I must say, I really didn't mean for him to get into the problems of each day and all that, because Len always reacts to things. Am I right that we have got to do something to restore the credibility of the Presidency. HR Haldeman: Of course you know the credibility gap in the old days. Len is the panic button type. If we had reacted in Garment's way in other things, we wouldn't be where we are. That doesn't mean he isn't right this time, incidentally. Pres. Nixon: I know. It would be very helpful to me if you could see Rogers yourself. I would get him in at 3:00 o'clock, give him an hour on the whole damn thing. I wonder if you and John shouldn't see him together? HR Haldeman: I would like to if that is ok with Bill. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Will you ask him? HR Haldeman: I will ask him. Say that we want to give him a full run before he meets with you. Pres. Nixon: I have suggested, John, too, because he has made a study and we want you to come in. In balance, he can meet with just you, but I prefer he meet with the two of you and then I want to see him at 4:00 o'clock. HR Haldeman: Ehrlichman makes a strong case that on my making a statement or anything, that as of now that my potential - Pres. Nixon: Guilt? HR Haldeman: Well, not guilt, but that I should not do anything without my lawyers. Pres. Nixon: That's my inclination. I don't think you can say a thing - HR Haldeman: What can the lawyers tell me? Pres. Nixon: I think the time has outrun that, because Peterson has told me that you, Ehrlichman are going to be called to the Grand Jury soon. He has told me that. Under the circumstances, I could not advise you with my limited knowledge of the law. I could not advise anybody to make a statement. You know what I mean? HR Haldeman: Check. Pres. Nixon: Because, basically, when you get in there they are going to question you on your damn statement. HR Haldeman: Of course, for my dough, that is alright, because whatever I say in the statement is exactly what I say in the Grand Jury. So Pres. Nixon: But, nevertheless, I wouldn't give them that opportunity. I'd keep that. HR Haldeman: I think Len's view is that what you need is a bold, new, you know, really some kind of a dramatic move. Henry feels that, but Henry feels that you should go on television. Pres. Nixon: I know, 9:00 o'clock. HR Haldeman: Which is his solution to any problem. Pres. Nixon: Do you believe I should do the 9:00 o'clock news? HR Haldeman: On this, no. Pres. Nixon: I don't think so either. HR Haldeman: I said, we are all steeped in this, but look at the newspaper. Where is the Watergate today? Pres. Nixon: Well in the country it is not that big. It is just a little bit in the evening news and it should be handled as a news story. I am not going to go on and say, look, we are in a hell of a shape. It will be a big news story, it will be a big story for a couple or three weeks. Let's face it, - HR Haldeman: Yep, that's right. Pres. Nixon: But it is not going to be at the moment. We are going to have one hell of a time.