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$Unique_ID{bob01178}
$Pretitle{}
$Title{Nixon Tapes, The
March 13, 1973. (12:42pm - 2:00pm)}
$Subtitle{}
$Author{Various}
$Affiliation{}
$Subject{john
dean
nixon
pres
get
say
now
that's
how
right}
$Date{1974}
$Log{}
Title: Nixon Tapes, The
Author: Various
Date: 1974
March 13, 1973. (12:42pm - 2:00pm)
Meeting: President Nixon and John Dean, Office
HR Haldeman: Say, did you raise the question with the President on Colson as
a consultant?
John Dean: No, I didn't.
J. Haldeman: Was that somebody else?
John Dean: The thought was as a consultant, without doing any consulting, he
wants it for continued protection on -
HR Haldeman: Solely for the purpose of executive privilege protection, I take
it.
John Dean: It is one of those things that is kept down in the personnel
office, and nothing is doe on It.
Pres. Nixon: What happens to Chapin?
John Dean: Well, Chapin doesn't have quite the same problem in appearing as
Colson will.
HR Haldeman: Yeah - you have the same problems of Chapin appearing as Colson.
Pres. Nixon: Well, can't - that would such an obvious fraud to have both of
them as consultants, that that won't work. I think he is
right. You would have to leave Chapin.
HR Haldeman: Well, you can't make Chapin a consultant, because we have
already said he is not.
John Dean: Yeah.
HR Haldeman: Because we wanted the separation. The question is, are you
then, as of now, the way they have interpreted executive
privilege, is that you are not going to let Chapin testify.
Pres. Nixon: Anybody.
HR Haldeman: Because it applies to executive privilege by the former people
in relation to matters while they were here.
John Dean: And the problem area Is.
HR Haldeman: And that same thing would apply to Colson.
John Dean: Well, yes, if Chuck were truly going to be doing nothing from this
day on.
HR Haldeman: That's alright. He is concerned with what he is doing. Colson
is concerned with what he is doing from now on, and he would
apply the consulting tactic if he were called with regard to
actions taken now.
John Dean: That's right.
J. Haldeman: that relate to the Watergate action.
John Dean: The problem is, I think, he will be out stirring up counter-news
attacks and things of this nature.
Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) Is he supposed to do that and be consulting
with the President on it?
John Dean: No, no. But he is consulting. It is a wide open consultantship.
It doesn't mean he would be consulting with you.
HR Haldeman: Yeah. Your idea was just to put this in the drawer, in case.
John Dean: Put it in the drawer, and then decide it.
J. Haldeman: It would be a consultant without pay.
John Dean: I wouldn't even tell Chuck this. Just tell Chuck there is
something in the drawer.
HR Haldeman: There is no reason to tell Chuck is there? Why . . .
Pres. Nixon: I would tell Chuck. Tell him he is not to say anything,
frankly.
HR Haldeman: The point would be to date it back on Saturday, so it is that
day.
John Dean: Continuous.
Pres. Nixon: His consultant fee stopped for the present time, but be is still
available for purposes of consulting on various problems and
the like.
John Dean: Right.
Pres. Nixon: Unpaid consultants?
John Dean: Yes.
J. Haldeman: We have some of those.
John Dean: Good ones.
Pres. Nixon: Well, what are the latest developments Bob should get something
on?
John Dean: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: Before we get into that I was wondering about that jackassery
about some kid who (unintelligible) - which of course is
perfectly proper course of action if it works. I would expect
we were heavily infiltrated that way too.
John Dean: The only problem there Mr. President is that.
Pres. Nixon: Did he get paid?
John Dean: He was paid.
Pres. Nixon: By check?
John Dean: He was paid by personal check of another person over there who, in
turn, was taking it out of expense money. The ultimate source
of the money - and this is ticklish - is that it is pre-April
7th money, and there could be some potential embarrassment for
Ken Reitz along the way.
Pres. Nixon: Oh!
John Dean: So he is. But I think it is a confined situation. Obviously it
is something that will come up in the Ervin Committee, but it
is not another new Liddy-Hunt operation.
Pres. Nixon: It is just a (adjective deleted) thing.
John Dean: Oh, it is.
Pres. Nixon: What happened to the kid? Did he just decide to be a hero?
John Dean: That's right. He probably chatted about it around school, and the
word got out, and he got confronted with it and he knew he had
chatted about it, so there he was. Its absurd, it really is.
He didn't do anything illegal.
Pres. Nixon: Illegal? Of course not! Apparently you haven't been able to do
anything on my project of getting on the offensive?
John Dean: But I have sir, to the contrary!
Pres. Nixon: Based on Sullivan, have you kicked a few butts around?
John Dean: I have all of the information that we have collected. There is
some there, and I have turned it over to Baroody. Baroody is
having a speech drafted for Barry Goldwater. And there is
enough material there to make a rather sensational speech just
by: Why in the hell isn't somebody looking into what happened
to President Nixon during his campaign? Look at these events!
How do you explain these? Where are the answers to these
questions? But, there is nothing but threads. I pulled all
the information . . .
Pres. Nixon: Also, the Senator should then present it to the Ervin Committee
and demand that that be included. He is a Senator, a Senator .
. .
John Dean: What I am working on there for Barry is a letter to Senator Ervin
that this has come to my attention, and why shouldn't this be a
part of the inquiry? And he can spring out 1964 and quickly to
'72. We've got a pretty good speech there, if we can get out
our materials.
Pres. Nixon: Good!
John Dean: So it's in the mill.
J. Haldeman: We have finally started something.
Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) Why haven't we had anyone involved in it
before? Just didn't have enough stuff? For example,
investigations were supposed to have been taken for the 34
(unintelligible) contributed to McGovern. And they say
(expletive deleted) it is all hanky-panky, and their records
are just too bad to find out. Is that the problem?
HR Haldeman: Won't that be an issue?
John Dean: That will be an issue. There is a crew working that, also.
Pres. Nixon: Do you need any IRS stuff?
John Dean: There is no need at this hour for anything from IRS, and we have a
couple of sources over there that I can go to. I don't have to
go around with Johnnie Walters or anybody, but we can get right
in and get what we need. I have been preparing the answers for
the briefing book and I just raised this with Ron; in my
estimation, for what it is worth, that probably this week will
draw more Watergate questions than any other week we are likely
to see, given the Gray hearings, the new revelations - they are
not new, but they are now substantiated - about Kalmbach and
Chapin that have been in the press.
Pres. Nixon: To the effect of what phase?
John Dean: That Chapin directed Kalmbach to pay Segretti, the alleged
saboteur, somewhere between $35 and $40,000. There is an awful
lot of that hot in the press now. There is also the question
of Dean appearing, not appearing - Dean's role. There are more
stories in the Post this morning that are absolutely inaccurate
about my turning information over to the Re-Election Committee
for some woman over there. Mrs. Hoback signed an affidavit and
gave it to Birch Bayh, and said that "I was brought into Bob
Mardian's office within 48 hours after a private interview I
had with the jury and confronted with it." How did they know
that? It came from internal sources over there. That's how
they knew it!
Pres. Nixon: From what?
John Dean: Internal sources - this girl had told others that she was doing
this, and they just told. They just quickly sent it to the top
that she was out on her own.
Pres. Nixon: Did she quit?
John Dean: She did. There have been two or three of those.
J. Haldeman: Why did she do that? Was she mad?
John Dean: She is a registered Democrat.
J. Haldeman: Why did we take her in?
John Dean: To this day, I do not know what she was doing.
Pres. Nixon: Who was she working for?
John Dean: She worked in Stans' operation.
Pres. Nixon: Why did he have her working for him?
John Dean: It wasn't a good move. In fact that was one of our problems - the
little pocket of women who worked for Maury Stans. There is no
doubt that things would have sailed a lot smoother without that
pack. Not that they have or had anything that was devastating.
Pres. Nixon: Well, now, with regard to the question, etc., it would be my
opinion not to dodge it just because there are going to be
questions.
John Dean: Well you are probably going to get more questions this week. And
the tough questions. And some of them don't have easy answers.
For example, did Haldeman know that there was a Don Segretti
out there? That question is likely.
Pres. Nixon: Did he? I don't know.
John Dean: Yes, he had knowledge that there was somebody in the field doing
prankster-type activities.
Pres. Nixon: Well, I don't know anything about that. What about my taking,
basically, just trying to fight this thing one at a time. I am
only going to have to fight it later, and it is not going to
get any better. I think the thing to say is, "this is a matter
being considered by the Committee and I am not going to comment
on it." I don't want to get into the business of taking each
charge that comes up in the Committee and commenting on it:
"It is being considered by the Committee. It is being
investigated and I am not doing to comment on it."
John Dean: That is exactly the way I have drafted these. I have checked them
generally.
Pres. Nixon: I will just cut them off. I think, John, if I start breaking
down, you see like I have done the Court thing on the Watergate
stuff, I am not going to comment on it. I know all of these
questions. I am not going to comment on it. That is a matter
for the Committee to determine. Then, I will repeat the fact
that as far as the Watergate matter is concerned, I am not
going to comment on it, on anything else. Let the Committee
find out. What would you say? You don't agree with that?
John Dean: Well, the bottom line, on a draft that (unintelligible). But if
you have nothing to hide, Mr. President, here at the White
House, why aren't you willing to spread on the record
everything you know about it? Why doesn't the Dean Report be
made public? Why doesn't everything come out? Why does
Ziegler stand up there and bob and weave, and no comment?
That's the bottom line.
Pres. Nixon: Alright. What do you say to that?
John Dean: Well,
Pres. Nixon: We are furnishing information. We will.
John Dean: We have cooperated with the FBI in the investigation of the
Watergate. We will cooperate with the investigation of, the
proper investigation by the Senate.
Pres. Nixon: We will make statements.
John Dean: And indeed we have nothing to hide.
Pres. Nixon: All this information, we have nothing to hide. We have to
handle it. You see, I can't be in the position of basically
hunkering down because you have a lot of tough questions on
Watergate, and not go out and talk on their issues because it
is not going to get better. It is going to get worse.
John Dean: I would agree. I think its cycled somewhat. I think after the
Gray thing takes one course or the other, there will be a dead
period of news on Watergate until the Ervin Hearings start
again. This has obviously sparked the news again.
Pres. Nixon: Well, let me just run over the questions again. If it is asked,
what about Mr. Haldeman, Mr. Segretti, etc., etc. that is a
matter being considered by the Senate Committee and I am not
going to comment on it.
John Dean: That is correct. That is specifically in their resolution.
Pres. Nixon: I am not going to comment on something being investigated by the
Committee. As I have already indicated, I am just not going to
comment. Do you approve such tactics? Another question - ?
John Dean: Did Mr. Chapin's departure have something to do with his
involvement with Mr. Segretti?
Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) What about Mr. Dean? My position is the same. We
have cooperated with the Justice Department, the FBI -
completely tried to furnish information under our control in
this matter. We will cooperate with the Committee under the
rules I have laid down in my statement on Executive Privilege.
Now what else?
John Dean: Well, then you will get a barrage of questions probably, in will
you supply - will Mr. Haldeman and Mr. Ehrlichman and Mr. Dean
go up to the Committee and testify?
Pres. Nixon: No, absolutely not.
John Dean: Mr. Colson?
Pres. Nixon: No. Absolutely not. It isn't a question of not - Ziegler or
somebody had said that we in our executive privilege statement
it was interpreted as meaning that we would not furnish
information and all that. We said we will furnish information,
but we are not going to be called to testify. That is the
position. Dean and all the rest will grant you information.
Won't you?
John Dean: Yes. Indeed I will! John,
Pres. Nixon: My feeling, is that I better hit it now rather than just let it
build up where we are afraid of these questions and everybody,
etc., and let Ziegler go out there and bob and weave around. I
know the easy thing is to bug out, but it is not.
John Dean: You're right. I was afraid. For the sake of debate, but I was
having reservations. It is a bullet biter and you just have to
do it. These questions are just not going to go away. Now the
other thing that we talked about in the past, and I still have
the same problem, is to have a "here it all is" approach. If
we do that.
Pres. Nixon: And let it all hang out.
John Dean: And let it all hang out. Let's with a Segretti - etc.
Pres. Nixon: We have passed that point.
John Dean: Plus the fact, they are not going to believe the truth! That is
the incredible thing!
Pres. Nixon: They won't believe the truth, and they have committed seven
people!
John Dean: That's right! They will continually try to say that there is
(unintelligible),
Pres. Nixon: They hope one will say one day, "Haldeman did it," and one day,
one will say I did it. When we get to that question - they
might question his political savvy, but not mine! Not on a
matter like that!
John Dean: I have a thing on Sullivan I would like to ask you. Sullivan, as
I told you, had been talking with me and I said Bill I would
like for my own use to have a list of some of the horribles
that you are aware of. He hasn't responded back to me, but he
sent me a note yesterday saying John I am willing at any time
to testify to what I know if you want me to. What he has, as
we already know, he has something that has a certain degree of
a dynamite situation already - the '68 Presidency, surveillance
of Goldwater.
Pres. Nixon: I thought he said he saw that the '68 bugging was ordered, but
he doesn't know whether it was carried out.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: But at least he would say (inaudible).
John Dean: Well, I have never talked with Bill about it. I have never gone
into details, because he has always been very close about it,
but he is now getting to the point if we wanted him to do this,
someone - and I don't think the White House should do it -
should sit down with him and really take down some notes of
what he does know, how strong it is, what he can substantiate.
Pres. Nixon: Who the hell could do it if you don't?
John Dean: Well, probably there is no one.
Pres. Nixon: That is the problem.
John Dean: Now the other thing, if we were going to use a package like this:
Let's say in the Gray hearings - where everything is cast that
we are the political people and they are not - that Hoover was
above reproach, which is just not accurate, total (expletive
omitted). The person who would destroy Hoover's image is going
to be this man Bill Sullivan. Also it is going to tarnish
quite severely.
Pres. Nixon: Some of the FBI.
John Dean: . . . some of the FBI. And a former President. He is going to
lay it out, and just all hell is going to break loose once he
does it. It is going to change the atmosphere of the Gray
hearings and it is going to change the atmosphere of the whole
Watergate hearings. Now the risk . . .
Pres. Nixon: How will it change?
John Dean: Because it will put them in context of where government institutes
were used in the past for the most flagrant political purposes.
Pres. Nixon: How can that help us?
John Dean: How does it help us?
Pres. Nixon: I am being the devil's advocate.
John Dean: I appreciate what you are doing. It is a red herring. It is what
the public already believes. I think the people would react:
(expletive deleted), more of that stuff! They are all bad down
there! Because it is a one way street right now.
Pres. Nixon: Do you think the press would use it? They may not play it.
John Dean: It would be difficult not to. Ah, it would be difficult not to.
Pres. Nixon: Why is Sullivan willing to do this?
John Dean: I think the quid pro quo with Sullivan is that he wants someday
back in the Bureau very badly.
Pres. Nixon: That's easy.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Do you think after he did this, the Bureau would want him back?
Would they want him back?
John Dean: I think probably not. What Bill Sullivan's desire in life is, is
to set up a domestic national security intelligence system, a
White House program. He says we are deficient. He says we
have never been efficient, because Hoover lost his guts several
years ago. If you recall he and Tom Huston worked on it. Tom
Huston had your instructions to go out and do it and the whole
thing just crumbled.
Pres. Nixon: (inaudible)
John Dean: That's all Sullivan really wants. Even if we could put him out
studying it for a couple of years, if you could put him out in
the CIA or someplace where he felt - put him there.
Pres. Nixon: We will do it.
John Dean: I think that is a simple answer. Let me just simply raise it with
him.
Pres. Nixon: There is no problem with Sullivan. He is a valuable man. Now
would the FBI turn on him (characterization deleted) ?
John Dean: There would be some effort at that. That's right they would say
he was disgruntled. He was canned by Hoover. He is angry, he
is coming back. But I would think a lot of that would be lost
in the shuffle of what he is laying out. I don't know if he
has given me his best yet. I don't know whether he's got more
ammunition than he has already told me. I will never forget a
couple off-the-cuff remarks.
Pres. Nixon: Why do you think he is now telling you this? Why is he doing
this now?
John Dean: Well, the way it came out when TIME Magazine broke on the fact
that it charged that the White House had directed that newsmen
and White House staff people be subjected to some sort of
surveillance for national security reasons. I called, in
tracking down what happened, I called Sullivan and I said,
"don't you think you ought to come over and talk to me about it
and tell me what you know." I was calling to really determine
whether he was a leak. I was curious to know where this might
have come from because he was the operative man at the Bureau
at the time. He is the one who did it. He came over and he
was shocked and distraught and (unintelligible). Then, after
going through with his own explanation of all what had
happened, he started volunteering this other thing. He said
John this is the only thing I can think of during this
Administration that has any taint of political use but it
doesn't really bother me because it was for national security
purposes. These people worked with sensitive material on
Vietnam that was getting out to reporters.
Pres. Nixon: Of course, the stuff was involved with the (expletive deleted)
Vietnam war.
John Dean: That's right. Then he told me about going to (location and name
deleted) and all that, and he said, "John that doesn't bother
me, but what does bother me is that you all have been portrayed
as politically using"-
Pres. Nixon: And we never did.
John Dean: And we never have! And he said the Eisenhower Administration
didn't either.
Pres. Nixon: Never.
John Dean: He said the only times that he can recall that there has been a
real political use has been during Democratic tenure. I said
for example, Bill, what are you talking about? Then he told me
of the Walter Jenkins affair, when DeLoach and Fortas, etc. -
Pres. Nixon: The Kennedy's, let me say, used it politically in that steel
thing. That was not national security was it?
John Dean: I asked somebody about that and they told me what happened. They
were being defensive of Kennedy, and so he was saying that
Kennedy had given Hoover orders and Hoover, being typical in
his response, tried to get it yesterday as far as the answer
for the President. And that is why sending people out in a
plane in the middle of the night really fell on Hoover. This
might be rumor over there, who knows?
Pres. Nixon: It is still wrong!
John Dean: Sure.
Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted) Can you imagine if a steel company or an
automobile company had raised hell about something Ruckelshaus
does, and we send FBI agents out to arrest? (expletive deleted)
Does he know about the bugging in '68?
John Dean: Yep! I think he would tell everything. He knows!
Pres. Nixon: You do?
John Dean: Uh huh. That's what I am saying he is a bomb!
Pres. Nixon: You think we could get him to do this?
John Dean: That is the real problem. How it could be done, how it could be
structured. He sent me this note and I called up and said,
"Bill, I appreciate getting that note very much. It takes a
lot of guts to send a note like that to me." He said, "it has
been a pleasure to see a man standing up blowing up a little
smoke up him and the like." He said, "well, I mean it! I am
perfectly willing to do anything you want. If you want me to
go up and testify, I will." I said, "well how much, you have
just given me some tidbits in our conversation and I would
really like to again repeat: can you put together what you do
know; just for your own use, put it together on a pad - just
your own recollections; and also tell me how you can
substantiate them - what kind of cross-examination you might be
subject to on it if you did testify." So he is doing that.
The question I have had is, how in the world can we program
something like this? I just have a feeling that it would be
bad for one Bill Sullivan to quietly appear on some Senator's
doorstep, and say, "I have the information you ought to have."
Well, "where did you get it?" "Why are you up here?" "Well
the White House sent me." That would be bad! The other thing
is, maybe this information could be brought to the attention of
the White House, and the White House could say to Eastland, "I
think you ought to call an executive session and hear his
testimony. This is quite troublesome, the information that has
been presented to us. It is so troublesome, we can't hold it
here and hope to be less comfortable."
Pres. Nixon: Why couldn't we have him just present it to Eastland? Why an
executive session? That doesn't serve
John Dean: Well, the first approach would be enough of the story, not to
tarnish the names, but it would leak out of there quite
obviously. If it doesn't we could make sure it did.
John Dean: If Sullivan went up to Eastland cold, say, or Hruska, I think they
would say, "go on down back to the Department of Justice where
you work, and let's not start all this."
Pres. Nixon: Suppose, another thing, Pat Gray knows anyone, or Hruska on the
Committee, who is a tiger on our side on the committee -
John Dean: Gurney has been good. He was good on the ITT Committee. He will
study, he will get prepared.
Pres. Nixon: Could we go after the Bureau? I don't know whether we could or
not.
John Dean: Not quite after the Bureau. What they are doing is taking the
testimony of somebody who is going after the Bureau.
Pres. Nixon: I know that. I am just thinking. They will look down the road
and see what the result of what they are doing is, won't they?
I would think so. Would they go after Johnson? Let's look at
the future. How bad would it hurt the country, John, to have
the FBI so terribly damaged?
John Dean: Do you mind if I take this back and kick it around with Dick
Moore? These other questions. I think it would be damaging to
the FBI, but maybe it is time to shake the FBI and rebuild it.
I am not so sure the FBI is everything it is cracked up to be.
I am convinced the FBI isn't everything the public think it is.
Pres. Nixon: No.
John Dean: I know quite well it isn't.
Pres. Nixon: If we can get Jerry Wilson in there - What is your feeling at
the moment about Gray? Can he hang in there? Should he?
John Dean: They have an executive session this afternoon to invite me to
testify.
Pres. Nixon: Sure.
John Dean: There is no question, they are going to invite me to testify. I
would say, based on how I handle: (1) the formal letter that
comes out of the Committee asking for information, and I
programmed that if they do get specific as to what in the hell
they do want to know, that I've got to lay it out in a letter
sent down here so I can be responsive, fully responsive.
Pres. Nixon: Respond to the letter in full!
John Dean: I feel I can respond to the letter in full. I feel I have nothing
to hide, as far this issue Gray raised.
Pres. Nixon: Would you respond under oath?
John Dean: I think I would be willing to, yes, give it under oath.
Pres. Nixon: That is what I would say: that is, what I would prepare in the
press thing. He will respond under oath in a letter. He will
not appear in a formal session. They might then say, "would he
be willing to be questioned under oath?"
John Dean: That is not what the question is. Yes, I would be willing to be
questioned under oath, but we are not going up.
Pres. Nixon: No, no! Here?
John Dean: No. I think that would be a hell of a bad precedent.
Pres. Nixon: Just so we don't cross that bridge. I agree, but you would
respond in writing. That's it. OK.
John Dean: After that, if we have been responsive, their argument for holding
up Gray's confirmation based on me should be gone. Sure, it
can raise more questions than answers, but it should work. The
effect of the letter we have taken the central points that they
want answers to, given them the responses, given them something
in Eastland's hand. And he can say, "alright, it is time to
vote. And Eastland says he has the votes to get Gray through.
Now, what happens on the Senate Floor is something else,
because Byrd is posing very perceptive, and controlling that
Southern bloc.
Pres. Nixon: Uh, uh! October! Byrd is running for leader of the whole
Senate.
John Dean: But Mansfield, on the other hand, has come out and said he would
support Gray's confirmation.
Pres. Nixon: My feeling is that they would like to have an excuse not to.
And maybe they will use not you. But about these hearings -
John Dean: Well if they say they have to hold up Gray's confirmation until
the Watergate Hearings are completed -
Pres. Nixon: That's great!
John Dean: That's the vehicle.
Pres. Nixon: That's a vote really for us, because Gray, in my opinion, should
not be the head of the FBI. After going through the hell of
the hearings, he will not be a good Director, as far as we are
concerned.
John Dean: I think that is true. I think he will be a very suspect Director.
Not that I don't think Pat won't do what we want - I do look at
him a little differently than Dick in that regard. Like he is
still keeping in close touch with me. He is calling me. He
has given me his hot line. We talk at night, how do you want
me to handle this, et cetera? So he still stays in touch, and
is still being involved, but he can't do it because he is going
to be under such surveillance by his own people - very move he
is making - that it would be a difficult thing for Pat. Not
that Pat wouldn't want to play ball, but he may not be able to.
Pres. Nixon: I agree. That's what I meant.
John Dean: Pat has already gotten himself in a situation where he has this
Mark Felt as his number two man. These other people have
surrounded him. He could have gotten a Wilson in there you
know. Like this: saying, "Gentlemen, I am putting my own team
in, and I am going to put in a team I have met around the
country who are good office directors; Sacks out of Chicago,"
or whatever, and just put his own team together for the
Headquarter's Office.
Pres. Nixon: That's the way it should be done.
John Dean: Gray should have walked in and made these major personnel
decisions. I wouldn't be surprised if death of his nomination
occurs if they say they cannot go forward with Gray's hearings
because of the Watergate.
Pres. Nixon: Where would that be done, John, at what point?
John Dean: It would simply be voted first in the Judiciary Committee. The
question is, then, whether it will be put on the calendar by
the leadership.
Pres. Nixon: The leadership might determine that we will not put It on the
calendar until after the Watergate Hearings. Then Gray would,
in turn, say that he will not wait that long.
John Dean: "Gentlemen, this is damaging to the leadership of the FBI, and I
will have to withdraw based on this." What would be nice for
all is to get Gray voted out of the Committee, with a positive
vote, enough to get him out of the Committee, and then lock him
in limbo there.
Pres. Nixon: What is Moore's judgment about Sullivan? What does he think?
John Dean: He said it speaks dynamite. And we both feel that it is the way
it would be done, that would be the secret. How it is done?
Whether it is the sort of thing that you leak out and do? It
would have to be very carefully thought through. We would have
to decide, should the White House not be involved or should we
be involved? If we are going to play with it, we are probably
going to say that we are involved and structure it in a way
that there is nothing improper with our involvement.
Pres. Nixon: The difficulty with the White House being involved is that if we
are involved in this (expletive deleted), that Is why it ought
to be that he just.
John Dean: I suppose the answer is to say to him, "you have intimated a few
things to me, the proper place to take that information is to
the Senate Judiciary Committee or to the Attorney General,
possibly." And then have him take it to the Committee. Or is
that too close to the President, still?
Pres. Nixon: Well, he works for the Attorney General, doesn't he?
John Dean: If he takes it to Kleindienst, Kleindienst is going to say, "Bill
just don't do it because you are going to take DeLoach's name
down with it, and DeLoach is a friend of ours."
Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted)
John Dean: Something I have always thought.
Pres. Nixon: Nobody is a friend of ours. Let's face it! Don't worry about
that sort of thing.
John Dean: Something I can kick around with Dick Moore. But first of all, it
will have to be thought through every inch of the way. Either
late yesterday afternoon - it wasn't when I talked with Bob -
he was quite excited about it. Ehrlichman said, gave a very
good, "uh huh." I said I am not going to rush anything on
this. We have a little bomb here that we might want to drop at
one time down the road. Maybe the forum to do it in is
something totally out of context between the Gray hearings and
the Watergate hearings. Maybe we need to go to the US News,
sir. Who knows what it would be, but we ought to consider every
option, now that we've got it.
Pres. Nixon: Rather than going to a hearing, do "Meet the Press," and that
will force the hearing to call him. That is quite the way to
do it. Have him give an interview to US News, "Wires in the
Sky" or something. A respected reporter why not give it to
Molenhoff?
John Dean: Well that is interesting. Molenhoff is close, but our guy gets
near Molenhoff. Molenhoff may not do anything.
Pres. Nixon: No, and we are in a position with Molenhoff that he has been
fighting us some. Maybe Molenhoff would be a pretty good
prospect for this thing. It is the kind of a story he loves,
but he digs on something. You couldn't call him, however,
(inaudible)-The (characterization deleted) loves to talk too
much, although he is a hell of a guy.
John Dean: Ok. Can I call Clark and say "listen Clark, a guy has brought me
a piece of dynamite that I don't even want in the White House?"
Pres. Nixon: He will write that, won't he?
John Dean: Yeah. Because that doesn't look like a set up deal. Well Clark
Molenhoff is the first guy to uncover a shield of anything, and
he will say no way -
Pres. Nixon: But he would do it. That is very important piece.
(unintelligible) Getting back, don't you feel that is the need
here to broaden the scope?
John Dean: The focus is right on us. That's the problem.
Pres. Nixon: Nothing on the Democrats. - Nothing on what the previous three
Administrations did?
John Dean: Nothing. If Hunt is still a walking story we'll pull out of this
thing. You can't find anybody who even knows what is
happening. Although it has increased in the network coverage.
That NBC thing last night, which is just a travesty as far and
we're talking about shabby journalism, they took the worst
edited clips out of context, with Strachan saying he was
leaving. And then had a little of clip of Ron saying, "I deny
that." And he was denying something other than what they were
talking about in their charge. It was incredible. Someone is
going through and putting that altogether right now and Ron
ought to be able to (unintelligible) to that one on NBC. It
was a very, very dishonest television reporting of sequence of
events, but out of sequence.
Pres. Nixon: You see, John, when that Ervin gets up there - and a lot of
Republicans even think he is a great Constitutional lawyer - it
just makes us wonder about our even sending Gray up. Who
knows?
John Dean: Who knows? That is right. If you didn't send him up, why didn't
you send him up. Because he wad
Pres. Nixon: I know, but that is one thing: You send somebody else up to
take them on, not a big clown. You know what I mean?
Pres. Nixon: I won't even announce any appointments. I think the problem of
the Senate was with all this stuff hanging out there in the
Ervin Committee.
John Dean: Well one thing, the saturation level of the American people on
this story is cracking. The saturation level in this city is
getting pretty high now, and they can't take too much more of
this stuff.
Pres. Nixon: Think not?
John Dean: There is nothing really new coming out.
Pres. Nixon: I talked with some kid and he said I don't think that anybody
incidentally would care about anybody infiltrating the peace
movement that was demonstrating against the President,
particularly on the War in Vietnam. Do you think so?
John Dean: No! Anyway, I don't care about that. What happened to this Texas
guy that gets his money back? Was he -
John Dean: All hell broke loose for him that week. This was
Pres. Nixon: No, no. Allan -
John Dean: Allan, not Duncan nor (unintelligible). All hell broke loose for
Allan for this reason: He - the money apparently originally
came out of a subsidiary of one of Allan's corporations down in
Mexico. It went to a lawyer in Mexico who put it down as a fee
billed to the subsidiary, and then the lawyer sent it back into
the States, and it came back up here. But the weakness of it
is that the Mexican lawyer: (1) didn't have a legitimate fee;
(2) It could be corporate contribution. So Allan had
personally put a note up with the corporation to cover it.
Allan, meanwhile, is having problems with his wife, and a
divorce is pending. And tax problems -
Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) Watergate
John Dean: I don't know why that went in the letter. It wasn't used for
Watergate. That is the interesting thing.
Pres. Nixon: It wasn't?
John Dean: No it was not. What happened is that these Mexican checks came
in. They were given to Gordon Liddy, and said, "why don't you
get these cashed?" Gordy Liddy, in turn, put them down to this
fellow Barker in Florida, who said he could cash these Mexican
checks, and put them with your Barker's bank account back in
here. They could have been just as easily cashed at the Riggs
Bank. There was nothing wrong with the checks. Why all the
rigamorole? It is just like a lot of other things that
happened over there. God knows why it was all done. It was
totally unnecessary, and it was money that was not directly
involved in Watergate. It wasn't a wash operation to get money
back to Liddy and the like.
Pres. Nixon: Who is going to be the first witness up there?
John Dean: Sloan.
Pres. Nixon: Unfortunate.
John Dean: No doubt about it -
Pres. Nixon: He's scared?
John Dean: He's scared, he's weak. He has a compulsion to cleanse his soul
by confession. We are giving him a lot of stroking. Funny
thing is this fellow goes down to the Court House here before
Sirica, testifies as honestly as he can testify, and Sirica
looks around and called him a liar. He just said - Sloan just
can't win! So Kalmbach has been dealing with Sloan. Sloan is
like a child. Kalmbach has done a lot of that. The person who
will have a greater problem as a result of Sloan's testimony is
Kalmbach and Stans. So they are working closely with him to
make sure that he settles down.
Pres. Nixon: Kalmbach will be a good witness, knowing what Kalmbach has been
through.
John Dean: Kalmbach has borne up very well. In fact, I decided he may be -
Pres. Nixon: Kalmbach is somewhat embarrassed, as he is, they say lawyer for
the President. Well, hell I don't need a lawyer. He and
DeMarco, his other partner, handle our pay out there.
John Dean: He is sensitive on that point. He saw a transcript of a briefing
where Ron was saying, "well he is really not, right
nomenclature, 'personal attorney.'" Herb said, "well, gee
whiz. I don't know whether Ron knows what all I do." - And I
said, "well, don't worry about it."
Pres. Nixon: What I meant is - I don't care about it, but I mean - it is just
the fact that it is played that way, that he - is in talking to
me all the time. I don't ask him anything. I don't talk to
him about anything. I don't know, I see Herb once a year when
we see and sign the income tax returns.
John Dean: That's right!
Pres. Nixon: Now, true, he handles our San Clemente property and all the
rest, but he isn't a lawyer in the sense that most people have
a lawyer.
John Dean: No, no. Although when you had an estate claim, he has some
dove-tailing on it.
Pres. Nixon: Anyway we don't want to back off of him.
John Dean: No, he is solid.
Pres. Nixon: He will - how does he tell his story? He has a pretty hard row
to hoe - he and Stans have.
John Dean: He will be good. Herb is the kind of guy who will check: not
once nor twice, on his story - not three times - but probably
fifty to a hundred times. He will go over it. He will know
it. There won't be a hole in it. Probably he will do his own
Q&A. He will have people cross-examine him from ten ways. He
will be ready as John Mitchell will be ready, as Maury Stans
will be ready.
Pres. Nixon: Mitchell is now studying, is he?
John Dean: He is studying. Sloan will be the worst witness. I think
Magruder will be a good witness. This fellow, Bart Porter,
will be a good witness. They have already been through Grand
Jury. They have been through trial. They did well. And then,
of course, people around here.
Pres. Nixon: None will be witnesses.
John Dean: They won't be witnesses?
Pres. Nixon: Hell, no. They will make statements. That will be the line
which I think we have to get across to Ziegler in all his
briefings where he is constantly saying we will provide
information. That is not the question. It is how it is to be
furnished. We will not furnish it in a formal session. That
would be a break down of the privilege. Period. Do you agree
with that?
John Dean: I agree. I agree. I have always thought that's the bottom line,
and I think that is the good thing that is happening in the
Gray hearings right now. If they send a letter down with
specific questions, I send back written interrogatories sworn.
He knows, the lawyer, that you can handle written
interrogatories, where cross-examination is another ball game.
Pres. Nixon: That's right!
John Dean: You can make a person look like they're inaccurate even if they
are trying to tell the truth.
Pres. Nixon: Well now, really, you can't mean that! All the face-making and
all that. Written interrogatories you can handle?
John Dean: Can be artfully, accurately answered and give the full
information.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) Well, what about the sentencing: When the hell
is he going to sentence?
John Dean: We thought he was going to sentence last Friday.
Pres. Nixon: I know he should have.
John Dean: No one knows what in the world Sirica is doing. It is getting to
be a long time now. It frankly is, and no one really has a
good estimation of how he will sentence. There is some feeling
that he will sentence Liddy the heaviest. Liddy is already in
jail, he is in Danbury. He wants to start serving so he can
get good time going. Hunt, he will probably be very fair with.
Pres. Nixon: Why?
John Dean: He likes Hunt - he thought Hunt was being open with him and being
candid, and Hunt gave a statement in open court that he didn't
know of any higher ups involved and Hunt didn't put him through
the rigors of trial. Hunt was a beaten man who had lost his
wife, was ill, and still they tried to move to have him severed
from the trial. And Hunt did not try to cause a lot of
problems. Bittman was cooperative, whereas Liddy played the
heavy in the trial. His lawyer raised all the objections and
the like, and embarrassed the Judge for some in-chambers things
he had said.
Pres. Nixon: But Liddy is going to appeal the sentence?
John Dean: Liddy is going to appeal the decision, the trial. He will appeal
that.
Pres. Nixon: He will appeal the trial? He was convicted!
John Dean: There is an outside chance that this man, this Judge, has gone so
far in his zeal to be a special prosecutor
Pres. Nixon: Well some of those statements from the Bench -
John Dean: Incredible statements!
Pres. Nixon: To me, incredible!
John Dean: Commenting on witnesses testimony before the Jury, was just
incredible. Incredible! So there may be a mistrial. Or maybe
reversible error.
Pres. Nixon: What about the Cubans?
John Dean: The Cubans will probably be thought of as hired hands, and receive
nowhere near the sentence of Liddy, I would think. Not all of
them. Barker, the lead Cuban, may get more than the others. It
is hard to say. I just don't have any idea. Sirica is a
strange man. He is known as a hanging judge.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible)
John Dean: That's right. He's tough. He is tough. The other thing, Sirica,
there was some indication that Sirica might be putting together
a panel. There is a system down there now, based on informal
agreement, where a sentencing judge convenes a panel of his own
to take advice from. If Sirica were being shrewd, he just
might get himself a panel and take their recommendations.
Pres. Nixon: When will the Ervin thing be hitting the fan most any day,
thinking from the standpoint of time?
John Dean: Well, I would say the best indications we have Dow is that public
hearings will probably start about the first of May. Now,
there will probably be a big bang of interest, initially. We
have no idea how they will proceed yet. We do have sources to
find that out, other than Baker. Incidentally, Kleindienst had
called Ervin again, returned the call. Ervin is going to see
him this week with Baker.
Pres. Nixon: Public hearings the first of May. Well it must be a big show.
Public hearings. I wouldn't think though, I know from
experience, my guess is that I think they could get through
about three weeks of those and then I think it would begin to
peter out somewhat. Don't you agree?
John Dean: No, I -
Pres. Nixon: ITT went longer, but that was a different thing, and it seemed
more important.
John Dean: When I told Bob, oh, several months ago, I hope they don't think
(unintelligible). He said the way they could have those
hearings and do a masterful job on it, would be to hold one
hearing a week on Thursdays, Thursday mornings, they cover it
live. That way, you get live coverage that day; you get the
networks that night; the national magazines that week; get the
weekend wrapups. You can stretch this thing out by, really.
Pres. Nixon: Our members of the Committee at least should say, let's get it
over with, and go through five day sessions, etc.
John Dean: Well you see, I don't think they are that perceptive. They just
think they are.
Pres. Nixon: Well, so be it. I noticed in the news summary Buchanan was
viewing with alarm the grave crisis in the confidency of the
Presidency, etc.
John Dean: Well the best way -
Pres. Nixon: How much?
John Dean: Pardon?
Pres. Nixon: How much of a crisis? It will be - I am thinking in terms of -
the point is, everything is a crisis. (expletive deleted) it
is a terrible lousy thing - it will remain a crisis among the
upper intellectual types, the soft heads, our own, too -
Republicans - and the Democrats and the rest. Average people
won't think it is much of a crisis unless it affects them.
(unintelligible)
John Dean: I think it will pass. I think after the Ervin hearings, they are
going to find so much - there will be some new revelations. I
don't think that the thing will get out of hind. I have no
reason to believe it will.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, yes - there would be new revelations.
John Dean: They would be quick (inaudible) They would want to find out who
knew -
Pres. Nixon: Is there a higher up?
John Dean: Is there a higher up?
Pres. Nixon: Let's face it, I think they are really after Haldeman.
John Dean: Haldeman and Mitchell.
Pres. Nixon: Colson is not big enough name for them. He really isn't. He
is, you know, he is on the government side, but Colson's name
doesn't bother them so much. They are after Haldeman and after
Mitchell. Don't you think so?
John Dean: Sure. They are going to take a look and try to drag them, but
they're going to be able to drag them into the election -
Pres. Nixon: In any event, Haldeman's problem in Chapin isn't it?
John Dean: Bob's problem is circumstantial.
Pres. Nixon: Why is that? Let's look at the circumstantial. I don't know,
Bob didn't know any of those people like the Hunts and all that
bunch. Colson did, but Bob didn't. OK?
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Now where the hell, or how much Chapin knew I will be (expletive
deleted) if I know.
John Dean: Chapin didn't know anything about the Watergate.
Pres. Nixon: Don't you think so?
John Dean: Absolutely not.
Pres. Nixon: Strachan?
John Dean: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: He knew?
John Dean: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: About the Watergate?
John Dean: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: Well, then, he probably told Bob. He may not have.
John Dean: He was judicious in what he relayed, but Strachan is as tough as
nails. He can go in and stonewall, and say, "I don't know
anything about what you are talking about." He has already
done it twice you know, in interviews.
Pres. Nixon: I guess he should, shouldn't he? I suppose we can't call that
justice, can we?
John Dean: Well, it is a personal loyalty to him. He doesn't want it any
other way. He didn't have to be told. He didn't have to be
asked. It just is something that he found was the way he
wanted to handle the situation.
Pres. Nixon: But he knew? He knew about Watergate? Strachan did?
John Dean: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: I will be damned! Well that is the problem in Bob's case. Not
Chapin then, but Strachan. Strachan worked for him, didn't he?
John Dean: Yes. They would have one hell of a time proving that Strachan had
knowledge of it, though.
Pres. Nixon: Who knew better? Magruder?
John Dean: Magruder and Liddy.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, I see. The other weak link for Bob is Magruder. He hired
him et cetera.
John Dean: That applies to Mitchell, too.
Pres. Nixon: Mitchell-Magruder. Where do you see Colson coming into it? Do
you think he knew quite a bit and yet, he could know quite a
great deal about a lot of other things and not know a lot about
this. I don't know.
John Dean: Well I have never -
Pres. Nixon: He sure as hell knows Hunt. That we know. Was very close to
him.
John Dean: Chuck has told me that he had no knowledge, specific knowledge, of
the Watergate before it occurred. There have been tidbits that
I have raised with Chuck. I have not play any games with him.
I said, "Chuck, I have indication that
Pres. Nixon: What indications? The lawyer has to know everything.
John Dean: That's right. I said, "Chuck, people have said that you were
involved in this, involved in that, involved in all of this. He
said, "that is not true, etc." I think that Chuck had
knowledge that something was going on over there, but he didn't
have any knowledge of the details of the specifics of the whole
thing.
Pres. Nixon: There must have been an indication of the fact that we had poor
pickings. Because naturally anybody, either Chuck or Bob, were
always reporting to me about what was going on. If they ever
got any information they would certainly have told me that we
got some information, but they never had a thing to report.
What was the matter? Did they never get anything out of the
damn thing?
John Dean: I don't think they ever got anything, sir.
Pres. Nixon: A dry hole?
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted)
John Dean: Well, they were just really getting started.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Bob one time said something to me about something, this
or that or something, but I think it was something about the
Convention, I think it was about the convention problems they
were planning something. I assume that must have been
MacGregor - not MacGregor, but Segretti.
John Dean: No, Segretti wasn't involved in the intelligence gathering piece
of it at all.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, he wasn't? Who the hell was gathering intelligence?
John Dean: That was Liddy and his outfit.
Pres. Nixon: Apart from Watergate?
John Dean: That's right. Well you see Watergate was part of intelligence
gathering, and this was their first thing. What happened is -
Pres. Nixon: That was such a stupid thing!
John Dean: It was incredible - that's right. That was Hunt.
Pres. Nixon: To think of Mitchell and Bob would have allowed - would have
allowed - this kind of operation to be in the campaign
committee!
John Dean: I don't think he knew it was there.
Pres. Nixon: I don't think that Mitchell knew about this sort of thing.
John Dean: Oh, no, no! Don't misunderstand me. I don't think that he knew
the people. I think he knew that Liddy was out intelligence
gathering. I don't think he knew that Liddy would use a fellow
like McCord, (expletive removed), who worked for the Committee.
I can't believe that.
Pres. Nixon: Hunt?
John Dean: I don't think Mitchell knew about Hunt either.
Pres. Nixon: Well Mitchell thought, well, gee, and I hired this fellow Fred
Fielding who works for me. Look, he said, Magruder said to me,
"will you find me a lawyer?" I said,
John Dean: Magruder says - as he did in the trial - well, of course, my name
has been dragged in as the guy who sent Liddy over there, which
is an interesting thing. Well what happened they said is that
Magruder asked - he wanted to hire my deputy over there as
Deputy Counsel and I said, "No way. I can't give him up."
Pres. Nixon: Was Liddy your deputy?
John Dean: No, Liddy never worked for me. He wanted this fellow Fred
Fielding who works for me. Look, he said, Magruder said to me,
"will you find me a lawyer?" I said, "I will be happy to look
around." I checked around the White House, Krogh said, "Liddy
might be the man to do it - he would be a hell of a writer. He
has written some wonderful legal opinions over here for me, and
I think he is a good lawyer." So I relayed that to Magruder.
Pres. Nixon: How the hell does Liddy stand up so well?
John Dean: He's a strange man, Mr. President.
Pres. Nixon: Strange or strong?
John Dean: Strange and strong. His loyalty is - I think it is just beyond
the pale. Nothing -
Pres. Nixon: He hates the other side too, doesn't he?
John Dean: Oh, absolutely! He is strong. He really is.
Pres. Nixon: Is it too late to go the hang-out road?
John Dean: Yes, I think it is. The hang out road -
Pres. Nixon: The hang-out road (inaudible).
John Dean: It was kicked around Bob and I and -
Pres. Nixon: Ehrlichman always felt it should be hang-out.
John Dean: Well, I think I convinced him why he would not want to hang-out
either. There is a certain domino situation here. If some
things start going, a lot of other things are going to start
going, and there can be a lot of problems if everything starts
falling. So there are dangers, Mr. President. I would be less
than candid if I didn't tell you there are. There is a reason
for not everyone going up and testifying.
Pres. Nixon: I see. Oh no, no, no! I didn't mean to have everyone go up and
testify.
John Dean: Well I mean they're just starting to hang-out and say here's our
story -
Pres. Nixon: I mean put the story out PR people, here is the story, the true
story about Watergate.
John Dean: They would never believe it. The two things they are working on
are Watergate
Pres. Nixon: Who is "they?"
John Dean: The press, (inaudible), the intellectuals, -
Pres. Nixon: The Packwoods?
John Dean: Right - They would never buy it as far as one White House
involvement in Watergate which I think there is just none for
that incident which occurred at the Democratic National
Headquarters. People here we just did not know that was going
to be done. I think there are some people who saw the fruits
of it, but that is another story. I am talking about the
criminal conspiracy to go in there. The other thing is that
the Segretti thing. You hang that out, and they wouldn't
believe that. They wouldn't believe that Chapin acted on his
own to put his old friend Segretti to be a Dick Tuck on
somebody else's campaign. They would have to paint it into
something more sinister, more involved, part of a general plan.
Pres. Nixon: Shows you what a master Dick Tuck is. Segretti's hasn't been a
bit similar.
John Dean: They are quite humorous as a matter of fact.
Pres. Nixon: As a matter of fact, it is just a bunch of (characterization
deleted). We don't object to such damn things anyway. On, and
on and on. No, I tell you this it is the last gasp of our
hardest opponents. They've just got to have something to
squeal about it.
John Dean: It is the only thing they have to squeal -
Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) They are going to lie around and squeal. They
are having a hard time now. They got the hell kicked out of
them in the election. There is not a Watergate around in this
town, not so much our opponents, even the media, but the basic
thing is the establishment. The establishment is dying, and so
they've got to show that despite the success we have had in
foreign policy and in the election, they've got to show that it
is just wrong just because of this. They are trying to use
this as the whole thing.
John Dean: Well, that is why I keep coming back to this fellow Sullivan. It
could change the picture.
Pres. Nixon: How could it change though? Saying here is another -
John Dean: Saying here is another and it happens to be Democrats. You know,
I know I just -
Pres. Nixon: If he would get Kennedy into it, too, I would be a little bit
more pleased.
John Dean: Let me tell you something that lurks at the bottom of this whole
thing. If, in going after Segretti, they go after Kalmbach's
bank records, you will recall sometime back - perhaps you did
not know about this - I apologize. That right after
Chappaquidick somebody was put up there to start observing and
within six hours he was there for every second of Chappaquidick
for a year, and for almost two years he worked for Jack
Caulfield.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, I have heard of Caulfield.
John Dean: He worked for Caulfield when Caulfield worked for John, and then
when I came over here I inherited Caulfield and this guy was
still on this same thing. If they get to those bank records
between the start of July of 1969 through June of 1971, they
say what are these about? Who is this fellow up in New York
that you paid? There comes Chappaquidick with a vengeance.
This guy is a twenty year detective on the New York City Police
Department.
Pres. Nixon: In other words we -
John Dean: He is ready to disprove and show that
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible)
John Dean: If they get to it - that is going to come out and this whole thing
can turn around on that. If Kennedy knew the bear trap he was
walking into
Pres. Nixon: How do we know - why don't we get it out anyway?
John Dean: Well, we have sort of saved it.
Pres. Nixon: Does he have any records? Are they any good?
John Dean: He is probably the most knowledgeable man in the country. I think
he ran up against walls and they closed the records down. There
are things he can't get, but he can ask all of the questions
and get many of the answers as a 20 year detective, but we
don't want to surface him right now. But if he is ever
surfaced, this is what they will get.
Pres. Nixon: How will Kalmbach explain that he hired this guy to do the job
on Chappaquidick? Out of what type of funds?
John Dean: He had money left over from the pre-convention -
Pres. Nixon: Are they going to investigate those funds too?
John Dean: They are funds that are quite legal. There is nothing illegal
about those funds. Regardless of what may happen, what may
occur, they may stumble into this in going back to, say 1971,
in Kalmbach's bank records. They have already asked for a lot
of his bank records in connection with Segretti, as to how he
paid Segretti.
Pres. Nixon: Are they going to go back as far as Chappaquidick?
John Dean: Well this fellow worked in 1971 on this. He was up there. He has
talked to everybody in that town. He is the one who has caused
a lot of embarrassment for Kennedy already by saying he went up
there as a newspaperman, by saying; "Why aren't you checking
this? Why aren't you looking there?" Calling the press
people's attention to things. Gosh, the guy did a masterful
job. I have never had the full report.
Pres. Nixon: Coming back to the Sullivan thing, you will now talk to Moore
and then what?
John Dean: I will see if we have something that is viable. And if it's -
Pres. Nixon: You plan to talk with him again.
John Dean: Yes he asked me last night to give him a day or so to get all his
recollections together, and that was yesterday. So I thought I
would call him this evening and say, "Bill, I would just like
to know
Pres. Nixon: You see, right after you talk to him it will become known. So
maybe the best thing to say is that he is to turn this over and
be maligned. But anyway, the Committee is going to say the
White House turned over information on the FBI. I don't know
how the (expletive deleted) we get it down there?
John Dean: I think I can kick it around with Dick Moore. He and I do very
well just bouncing these things back and forth and coming up
with something. We would never be embarrassed about it.
Pres. Nixon: To give it to a newsman, it would be a hell of a break for a
newspaper, a hell of a story! The STAR just run a whole story
on a real bomb on the FBI. Then the Committee member, the man
you would use, for example, in this case would be to call
Gurney, and to say, "Look! We are on to something very hot
here. I can't tell you any more. Go after it, you'll get your
other end this fall." Then he goes. It seems to me that's a
very effective way to get it out.
John Dean: Uh huh. It seems to me that I don't think Sullivan would give up
the White House. Sullivan - if I have one liability in
Sullivan here, it is his knowledge of the earlier
(unintelligible) that occurred here.
Pres. Nixon: That we did?
John Dean: That we did.
Pres. Nixon: Well, why don't you just tell him - he could say, "I did no
political work at all. My work in the Nixon Administration was
solely in the national security." And that is thoroughly true!
John Dean: That is true.
Pres. Nixon: Well, good luck.
John Dean: Thank you, sir.
Pres. Nixon: It is never dull is it?
John Dean: Never.
