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- Organization: alt.support.childfree
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- Subject: alt.support.childfree Charter and FAQ
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- Keywords: childfree, child-free, childless by choice
- Originator: faqserv@penguin-lust.MIT.EDU
- Date: 11 May 2004 10:51:35 GMT
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-
- alt.support.childfree Charter and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
-
- Charter statement of alt.support.childfree:
-
- alt.support.childfree provides information, discussion and a
- supportive environment for people who choose or are in the process of
- choosing to remain child-free. This is not a newsgroup for anyone
- trying to bash the childless state; here, being childless is not
- something that has to be defended. (Control message posted by Jonathan
- Grobe, 12 January 1996.)
-
- Our charter's URL is at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/support/childfree/faq/index.html
-
- Violation of a newsgroup charter is considered to be abusive behavior
- by many ISPs. More importantly, *this is a support group*, with an
- important function to fulfill, and the legal right to fulfill it.
- Therefore, attempts to flood the group with off-topic trolling, spam,
- advertising, and "bot baiting" may be treated as a "Denial of Service
- Attack," which can have serious legal repercussions for the attackers.
- All institutions that have the ability to counter such attacks have
- the full support of our newsgroup's regular members, to take care of
- this problem when it arises.
-
- Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.childfree
-
- Here is the list of Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for the
- alt.support.childfree Usenet newsgroup. This FAQ has been regularly
- posted to alt.support.childfree, alt.answers, and news.answers since 1
- November 1997. Its master copy is available on the Web at
- http://www.faqs.org/faqs/support/childfree/faq/index.html.
-
- This document is now in two parts:
-
- Part 1 contains a brief description of terms, a list of support
- groups, and a description of this particular support group. It is
- meant for people who are not necessarily interested in the Usenet
- newsgroup, but are searching for any kind of support toward the
- absence of childrearing.
-
- Part 2 contains guidelines for posting to this group, and some
- responses that childfree people have already made to frequently asked
- questions about the desire not to raise children. It is meant for
- people who wish to post to the Usenet newsgroup alt.support.childfree.
-
- If you have comments, either post to alt.support.childfree, or e-mail
- blahdeblah@myrealbox.com
-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Disclaimer: The information in this document is a matter of opinion,
- as is the entire newsgroup it represents. As such, nobody here takes
- responsibility for incorrect or inaccurate information in this
- document, beyond correcting the error in the document.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
- Part 1: Terminology, Support, and About the Group
-
- Contents:
-
- Terminology:
- 1. What's the difference between childfree and childless?
- 2. I'm infertile; can I be childfree?
- 3. What do all those acronyms and other strange terms mean?
-
- Support:
- 1. How difficult is it to get a tubal/vasectomy or hysterectomy?
- 2. Where else can I go for support?
-
- About the Group:
- 1. Why does alt.support.childfree exist?
- 2. So, you all hate children?
- 3. Don't people hate you for your unpopular stance?
-
-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Part 1: Terminology, Support, and About the Group
-
- Terminology:
-
- 1. What's the difference between childfree and childless?
-
- "Childless" people want them and physically can't, or don't have them
- and are thinking about having them. "Childfree" people don't want
- them, don't have them and are positive they don't want them. (Rabbit)
-
- Childfree means that you don't have children, aren't going to have
- children, and are happy about this. Childless means that you don't
- have children, aren't going to have children, and wish you could.
- Personally, I think both words and the distinction between them are
- *extremely* useful. (Jennie D-O'C)
-
- 2. I'm infertile; can I be childfree?
-
- If you've decided that you don't want children, you're childfree,
- regardless of whether or not you're actually fertile and have to
- therefore work hard at *staying childfree. (Jennie D-O'C)
-
- I am child free - I made a choice despite my subfertility. I am not
- childless - I could still have a child, but I don't want to have a
- child on anybody's terms but my own. My life is fulfilled and complete
- without children, thankyouverymuch. (Cinnamontoast)
-
- 3. What do all those acronyms and other strange terms mean?
-
- CF, CBC and CFC = Childfree, Childless By Choice, and Childfree By
- Choice, meaning we really Really want no children. Most people who
- post to alt.support.childfree are not only proud of being CF, we're
- smug about it.
-
- The following terms may appear in message headers, to help categorize
- messages. If you use these terms in your message headers when
- appropriate, many people who just skim the newsgroup will appreciate
- it.
-
- XP = crosspost.
-
- OT = off topic (according to the group charter).
-
- TR = Troll Response.
-
- IDWIYO = It's Different When It's Your Own.
-
- FOAK = Font (or Fount) of All Knowledge.
-
- SQUICK = Something truly gross.
-
- MOO = Mindless, bovine mother.
-
- NEWS = News item ripped fresh from the womb of the daily headlines.
-
- PET = Pet-related topic.
-
- For many other terms one might encounter in alt.support.childfree,
- such as "PNB," "BNP," "breeder," and "sprog," check out the ASCF
- "Lexicon of Spawn" at
- http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/7404/
-
- Support:
-
- 1. How difficult is it to get a tubal/vasectomy or hysterectomy? How
- bad is the scarring from a tubal ligation? How soon can I (go to work,
- exercise, bungee-jump) after a tubal ligation?
-
- I had a much easier time, before and after my tubal, than I thought I
- would. My primary-care dr. approved my request for a tubal referral
- (at the ripe old age of 27 ;> ) with very few questions asked. I had
- the surgery on a Friday, and was back to work on Monday. By that time,
- I didn't even need painkillers, although I couldn't do any heavy
- lifting for about two weeks after I got my tubes tied. Physically,
- it's pretty much business as usual--I have a normal sex drive, I
- ovulate, I have normal menstrual cycles. Emotionally, I've decided my
- family's problems with my decision are just that--THEIR problems--and
- I do not need to make them MINE. I know I made the right choice for
- me. (Marisa Wood)
-
- Keep in mind that the rate of failure for a tubal is much higher than
- doctors are willing to admit, and the rate of failure is higher the
- younger you are. Make sure that your doctor uses the absolute most
- dependable method. If he jokes around about failure, tell him to drop
- dead and find yourself a doctor who cares about your desire to avoid
- pregnancy. (Anonymous)
-
- It (the vasectomy) was most undignified. But painless at the time. And
- it doesn't hurt much now, though it is a bit uncomfortable sitting
- around with ice in my pants. My only regret about the surgery is that
- I waited this long to do it. (Karl Zadoc)
-
- In my experience, if you're female, doctors will at the very least ask
- you lots of personal questions and make you undergo psychological
- counseling if you want to try to get tubal before you've had children.
- Most will refuse you outright. I find this extremely ironic, since
- it's possible to choose to change your life permanently and *parent*
- as early as fourteen or so, but if a healthy 28-year-old woman wants
- to get herself sterilized, that's not allowed. (Jennie D-O'C)
-
- 2. Where else can I go for support?
-
- Planned Parenthood: http://www.plannedparenthood.com/
-
- For information about tubal ligations, a good place to start is
- http://www.herownwoman.com/tubalstuff.html. This site belongs to
- ASC's Monica L. For information about birth control, see
- http://www.herownwoman.com/birthcontrol.html.
-
- For information about vasectomies, see the newsgroup
- alt.support.vasectomy, or the websites
- http://www.vasectomy-information.com or http://www.vasectomy.com.
-
- Please see the Links section of the FAQ for even more sources of
- support for both sterilization and childfree living.
-
- About the Group:
-
- 2. Why does alt.support.childfree exist?
-
- Because we need a place to vent. If somebody's child rams a mini
- shopping cart into the back of my legs, or a child at the next table
- in a restaurant wanders around and screams, or someone changes a
- diaper on the bench in the ice cream parlor, I'm not the type of
- person to create a scene. I'm seething inside, but I generally keep my
- mouth shut. That's not healthy. If I mention at work or among other
- people that these things annoyed me today, I'm just as likely to hear,
- "Well, what do you expect? They're just children." I don't want to
- hear that. I want to hear, "Hey, what a jerk that parent was, let me
- tell you about the one that tore all the posters we'd just put up
- today." I can come here to a.s.cf, moan about it, and people will
- commiserate. (Rabbit)
-
- There are lots of things in this world that bug people (isn't there
- even a site on the net for discussion nothing but peeves??), and I
- think this newsgroup just gives CBC'rs a place to rant about things
- that bug them regarding kids, parents, and people who nose into their
- lifestyle. I believe (at least I hope) that it is nothing more than
- that. (Liz Guzzi)
-
- To provide a place that being childfree is a *given*. (Jennie D'O-C)
-
- 3. So, you all hate children?
-
- I do. The next poster doesn't. But then, I hate metalhead music,
- Brussels sprouts, small foreign cars, McDonald's, and that song from
- 'Titanic," and no one gives me a hard time about it ... (Rabbit)
-
- Chilllllll-druuuuuuun are quite nice actually. With bernaise sauce and
- a good Merlot. 8) (Marisa Wood)
-
- What it all boils down to for me is that I don't tend to like
- interacting with people who think that the world revolves around them.
- Since the vast majority of young children don't yet have the cognitive
- skills to realize that this isn't the case, I'd rather not have
- anything to do with them. (Jennie D-O'C)
-
- 4. Don't people hate you for your unpopular stance?
-
- Some do. That's why there's a need for support. (Rabbit)
-
- Oh come now, it's not like we're proposing to ship our surplus
- children to the Congo for famine relief or anything. Despite the
- answers you see above, some of us actually get along nicely with lots
- of parents, some of whom have actually posted to this newsgroup.
- (Scott Eiler)
-
- I've had more trouble with being misunderstood than with being hated.
- Not that that's exactly fun, either. (Jennie D-O'C)
-
- Some do, mainly out of jealousy that they weren't smart or thinking
- enough to make this same choice for themselves. (Glenna99)
-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Part 2: Posting Guidelines, Snappy Comebacks, and Links
-
- Contents:
-
- Posting Guidelines:
- 1. Can I post here if I like kids but don't want my own?
- 2. If I'm a parent, can I post here?
- 3. What kind of posts should I avoid writing?
- 4. Why are there arguments and negative postings here?
- 5. Why all the off-topic postings?
- 6. Why does this group complain about children all the time?
-
- Snappy Comebacks:
- 1. But you were children once!
- 2. But children are our future!
- 3. What if your parents had felt that way?
- 4. Don't you worry about who will take care of you when you are older
- unless you have children?
- 5. Why do you think you have anything of value to say about children,
- parents, or childrearing?
- 6. But you'd be such a good parent!
- 7. Children are just like very small adults, and you can help them!
- 8. It takes a village to raise a child...
- 9. What if everyone thought the way you do?
- 10. You're just being selfish...
- 11. When will you have your own children?
-
- Links
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Part 2: Posting Guidelines, Snappy Comebacks, and Links
-
- Posting Guidelines:
-
- 1. Can I post here if I like kids but don't want my own?
-
- Of course, as far as I'm concerned. But don't be upset if things get a
- bit ... um, nasty. (Rabbit)
-
- As far as *I'm* concerned, as long as you don't start saying how cute
- all kids are, you're covered by the charter. (Scott Eiler)
-
- 2. If I'm a parent, can I post here?
-
- No. Parents are not welcome to post to alt.support.childfree. This group is for the
- childfree and for childless people in the process of deciding whether
- to be childfree. (Jason G)
-
- 3. What kind of posts should I avoid writing?
-
- If you read this group and feel you have to oppose the absence of
- children: bear in mind, we've heard it all before. If you don't
- believe it, check out Breeder Troll Bingo, conveniently available on
- the Web at http://www.cybercomm.net/~flamingo/breedertroll_bingo.htm.
- If you say anything that's on the Breeder Troll Bingo card, you will
- be ridiculed, at the very least. (Scott Eiler)
-
- Avoid "yabbuting." "Yabbuting" is saying things like "yeah, but it's
- perfectly normal for children to do that" or "yeah, but that's not the
- parents' fault" in response to someone's rant. This is generally
- frowned on in alt.support.childfree.
-
- When the denizens of alt.support.childfree are ranting, we don't
- *want* to have an argument about what we're ranting about. We just
- want to blow off steam, or commiserate with others who might feel the
- same way. And since it's looked down on in our culture to complain
- about children or parents anywhere else, alt.support.childfree is the
- only place where it's accepted. Therefore, "yabbuting" is particularly
- heinous invasion of space. (Jennie D-O'C)
-
- People who have wandered over to ASC from misc.kids or other parenting
- newsgroups are used to one type of newsgroup experience--one where
- there is a desire to share information and correct misconceptions on
- issues about being a parent or raising children. ASC is a completely
- different ball game. ASC denizens are not interested in performing
- cultural anthropology upon parents, in understanding why parents or
- children do the things that they do. They will therefore not respond
- with gratitude to being "enlightened."
-
- Most parents would never think of posting along the lines of "Geez,
- why don't you guys adopt?" on alt.infertility. Posting "yabbut" on
- ASC is the same thing.
-
- 4. Why are there arguments and negative postings here?
-
- It's real people posting, and real people often disagree. Sometimes
- it's difference of opinion, sometimes misunderstandings. Cyberspace
- doesn't allow for body language and inflection. (Rabbit)
-
- For some reason, some people who would never think of starting an
- argument in support groups like alt.support.shyness or
- alt.support.grief don't hesitate to troll to our particular support
- group. (Scott Eiler)
-
- Yes, (insert name of troll here), we can't make you leave, but make no
- mistake about it that you *do* cause damage by your presence here. You
- are putting your selfish need for entertainment and the last word
- before our need for a support group. (Elise)
-
- Just as freedom of religion is now generally seen to include freedom
- FROM religion, the childfree state properly includes the right to be
- free of lectures on parenting issues. (Stella)
-
- 5. Why all the off-topic postings?
-
- 'Cause they're FUN! I feel like the a.s.cf posters are my friends. In
- real one-on-one life, I talk about everything with my friends, and I
- like to do that here. I figure that if someone doesn't like the
- off-topic postings, they can scroll by them. (Rabbit)
-
- Well, this is alt.SUPPORT.childfree, and sometimes you have to support
- people by talking about things they want to talk about. (Scott Eiler)
-
- Sorry... it's kinda like a big childfree cocktail party. (Bill)
-
- 6. Why does this group complain about children all the time?
-
- Because the idea behind a support group is venting. Why does AA always
- talk about drinking? To someone just stepping in, it would indeed seem
- that all we do is complain. But here's another way to look at it. I
- work with my computer a lot, and 90% of the time it works properly and
- does what I need it to do. I feel no need to say, and most people
- don't want to hear, "Well, I did my work today, computer worked fine."
- But if it "misbehaves," eats my work, etc., then my natural response
- is to want to throw it out the window. I won't do that, of course, but
- it makes me feel better to be able to turn to someone and say,
- "Goddamn computer! I'd like to send it to Mars!" So in real life, 60%
- of the children I see are well behaved. But all it takes is one
- screaming one to make life miserable for everyone in the restaurant,
- and that's when I want to complain about it. (Rabbit)
-
- Snappy Comebacks:
-
- 1. But you were children once!
-
- I would never put anyone through that hell again. (Scott Eiler)
-
- When I was a child, there were people then who didn't want children,
- and didn't want the company of children. You know what? That was okay
- with me. (Mari)
-
- Yes, and I wasn't a planned, wanted child. You have no idea of what
- kind of misery that can cause a child - they pick up on that very
- easily. What kind of parent would intentionally do that to another
- person? And yet you suggest I be that kind of parent. (Mari)
-
- And the Blessed Virgin Mary managed to raise the Son of God without
- "personal bonding leave," lactation breaks, or a special pumping room.
- (Gutterboy)
-
- Yes, and you can DAMN WELL believe I would never have been allowed to
- act like THAT in public! (Kent)
-
- Yes, and fortunately I grew out of it. (Joann)
-
- "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I
- reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind
- me." (St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 13:11)
-
- 2. But children are our future!
-
- Death is our future. Children would just ruin the time I have left to
- live. (DPH)
-
- Maybe, but unless a lot of people stop turning out 3 of them, there
- won't be much of a future. (Rabbit)
-
- I care enough about "our future" not to subject it to my lack of
- maternal instinct. (Marisa Wood)
-
- Most of the high-achieving women in history have not had children
- (Queen Elizabeth 1, Florence Nightingale, Jane Austen etc.) (Janet)
-
- No, badly disciplined and selfish adults are our future, if parents
- don't start training them for true adulthood. (Sunfell)
-
- Only if you believe that as soon as those children turn 21, every
- older generation will retire.
-
- I expect to work until the day I die.
-
- I am my own future.
-
- We are making our future RIGHT NOW.
-
- We can't cop out by saying that somebody else is the future.
-
- When I'm dead, it certainly won't mean anything to me if the human
- race goes on or not.
-
- Making a baby, or even a clone, does not make you immortal. You
- yourself will still be dead someday.
-
- 3. What if your parents had felt that way?
-
- Well, I wouldn't have to worry about it then, would I? (Rabbit)
-
- How do you know they didn't? (Ilene Bilenky)
-
- Yup, and the planet would be in somewhat better shape, too. People
- have no responsibility, zero, to sprog they don't produce. (Elise)
-
- Then maybe my mom would have gotten her Ph.D and never crawled into
- the ol' booze bottle. If I'd had the option, I woulda given up my life
- for that. (Dorothea Salo)
-
- Then I would have been the child of *other* parents! (Robin Kornides)
-
- Well, maybe you would have had an easier time finding a parking space
- today. (Daniel Reynolds)
-
- Mine did. Unfortunately, they lived in such a narrow, closed-minded
- society that they felt pressured into having kids. As a result, they
- resented their own children. If my parents had never had me, I
- wouldn't be here to have any regrets about it. (Dulcinea West)
-
- 4. My child will wipe your ass when you're older!
-
- Which means s/he won't be hanging around wiping YOUR ass, I suppose?
- (Mari)
-
- My hypothetical spawn won't wipe my ass; they'll just name themselves
- trustees of my retirement fund and pay *your* children to wipe my ass.
- Why not eliminate the middlemen? (Scott Eiler)
-
- If you would be so kind, please show me the iron-clad guarantee you
- have that shows that beyond a shadow of a doubt, your children will
- support you and comfort you in your old age. (Rabbit)
-
- You make children, I'll make friends. (Rabbit)
-
- On your way home tonight, why don't you just drop by the nursing home
- and see how many people wait day after day after day after day for
- their children to visit them? (Rabbit)
-
- The same people who will be wiping yours when your kids too busy with
- their own children to take care of you. (Tara D)
-
- Are you currently wiping your parents' asses? (Tara D)
-
- If your children are young, it remains to be seen whether they will
- turn out to be worthwhile, as ass-wipers or anything else! (Janet)
-
- 5. Why do you think you have anything of value to say about children,
- parents, or childrearing?
-
- You've never been a politician. How dare you criticize the way they
- spend your taxes! You don't know what they go through! Once you've
- been a politician, then you can talk! (Gutterboy)
-
- If one believes that, then one also believes that men should never be
- gynecologists, or indeed that any *parent* could possibly have an
- opinion on any other parenting or child other than their very own.
- (Brenda Peters)
-
- We have all been children, so we have some idea of normal behaviour!
- And the fact that we have no children enables us to view children in a
- more objective way than parents do. (Janet)
-
- Sometimes an outside, unschooled perspective is MORE valuable than
- that of the practitioner. Often those who work on something day after
- day lose perspective; they get so caught up in the parts *they* see,
- they lose sight of the parts they *don't* see but others do. (Jim
- Paradis)
-
- 6. But you'd be such a *good* parent!
-
- I usually snicker and say, "Believe me, you're not the first person
- who's ever called me a 'mother'." (Rabbit)
-
- So? I give good blowjobs too, doesn't mean I want to be a hooker!
- (Sixkats)
-
- But smothering is illegal you know?!? It's so much easier to avoid the
- issue entirely *my* way. (Tara)
-
- 7. Children are just like very small adults, and you can help them!
-
- Okay. My advice is they get a job. (Jason G.)
-
- If they're small adults, can I date them? (Scott Eiler)
-
- Charity begins at home. They DO have their own parents, don't they?
- (T. Van Voris)
-
- If children are little adults, why aren't they out working alongside
- the rest of us? Why are there tax breaks for them? Hell, if they are
- little adults, they should be paying taxes. Also, if they are little
- adults, this nonsense about taking violence off TV for the sake of the
- chilllddddrrruuuuunnnnn would be moot. After all, they are little
- adults, right? (HCF)
-
- 8. It takes a village to raise a child...
-
- It takes a child to raze a village. (Ilene B.)
-
- I'm not a member of that village that's supposed to raise your kid for
- you. (Scott Amspoker)
-
- I moved out of the village with no forwarding address. (Melody)
-
- In order to save the village, we had to destroy it. (Jim)
-
- You may live in the village but I live in the jungle. (Veronique)
-
- The day that parents took away my rights as a village member to
- chastise, and educate their children; they also lost their right to
- assume I would mind and attend to children. (Tara D)
-
- 9. What if everyone thought the way you do?
-
- 200 years from now, the earth would again be a green and flourishing
- place. Whales would have stopped stranding themselves as oceanic
- pollution levels dropped back to zero. Without the EMF fields,
- migration routes would re-establish. New species would begin to
- develop, and the Earth would once again be whole and well. (Swan)
-
- And if everyone thought like you, every *other* species on this planet
- would die out. (Mari)
-
- Give me a call when there are fewer than 2 billion people on the
- planet; until then I'm not particularly concerned about extinction.
- (DPH)
-
- Given the overwhelming social pressure in society to breed, it seems
- highly unlikely that this will happen. Since the world is
- over-populated, perhaps it would be better if more people thought like
- us. (Janet)
-
- I'll bet that the chances of human extinction are made greater by
- rampant overpopulation, than by some of us deciding to remain
- childfree. (Renee)
-
- 10. You're just being selfish...
-
- Selfish people make lousy parents. (Ellen)
-
- Selfish is popping out a kid that you can't afford to raise and then
- expecting other people to make the sacrifices necessary to raise it.
- (DPH)
-
- Can you give me 5 reasons you had kids, which don't begin with "I
- wanted"? (Renee)
-
- In a polluted and overcrowded world, it is not unselfish to breed.
- (Janet)
-
- I see most *parents* as the selfish ones; they're concerned only for
- their *own* kids. Instead of "me, me, me" it's now "mine, mine, mine!"
- (Ellen)
-
- 11. When will you have your own children?
-
- This one has so many snappy responses, we refer you to
- http://www.eilertech.com/text/asc/when.txt. (Scott Eiler)
-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ASC Links:
-
- ASC Archives, home of great past posts and the ever-popular
- Breedertroll Bingo and Drinking Games:
- http://childfree.netfirms.com
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- ASC Lexicon of Spawn:
- http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/7404/
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- The ASC Killfiles FAQ
- http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/killfaq.html
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- ASC Guide to Fancy Restaurants (inspired by a "breedertroll" visitor
- to the newsgroup)
- http://www.eilertech.com/hhgg/fancy.htm
- _________________________________________
- Copyright (c) 2003, by the authors mentioned above.
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-