ftp.pasteur.org/FAQ/

home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search

/ ftp.pasteur.org/FAQ/ / ftp-pasteur-org-FAQ.zip / FAQ / C++-faq / turbovision / tvplus / part3 < prev

Wrap

Internet Message Format | 1995-08-15 | 31.9 KB

Path: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news!uhog.mit.edu!news.mathworks.com!newshost.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!warrane.connect.com.au!godzilla.zeta.org.au!not-for-mail From: grove@zeta.org.au (Rachel Polanskis) Newsgroups: comp.os.msdos.programmer.turbovision,comp.answers,news.answers Subject: C++ Turbo Vision FAQ, part3/3 Followup-To: poster Date: 15 Aug 1995 01:11:19 +1000 Organization: Kralizec Dialup Unix Sydney, +61-2-837-1183 V.32bis Lines: 824 Approved: news-answers-request@mit.edu Message-ID: <40np2n$jn0@godzilla.zeta.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.zeta.org.au Summary: This article is a compilation of information on the use of, and resources for, Turbo Vision for C++ (Borland's application framework). Xref: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu comp.os.msdos.programmer.turbovision:5086 comp.answers:13672 news.answers:50724 Archive-name: C++-faq/turbovision/tvplus/part3 Posting-Frequency: monthly Last-modified: 1995/08/14 Version: 1.8 URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/tvhome.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Applications written with Turbo Vision ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are interested in pushing software you have written using TV, download the ASCII text outline to help you prepare a catalogue entry describing your application. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CATALOGUE PRO FORMA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This pro forma has been prepared to make it easy for you to present information about an application written with Turbo Vision C++, whether you were the sole author, a project leader, an interested third party, or the like. The sort of information we are looking for is outlined below but the file should be no bigger than 4K: Name of application What you call your program. Purpose of the application This is a short description of what your programme does, and the needs it fulfills for users. This is a good place to state briefly what makes it distinctive, e.g. a word processor that sounds like your grade teacher when you mis-spell a word. Distribution category Is your application freeware, shareware, in-house or commercial distribution. Any copyright information may be mentioned here. Availability Specify the distribution filename if the application is freeware or shareware. State whether the source code or a library is available for your programme. Description of application Describe what your program actually does, from a user's perspective. Developmental problems and response Disclose any problems you encountered in building your programme, and what workarounds you used to resolve them. Did you encounter any bugs or incompatibilities with 3rd party libraries or did you have to modify the source code, etc? A few thoughtful comments here may solve a problem someone will encounter with their use of TV. Contact Your name and, if you wish, the address where you may be contacted for further information about the programme. The time spent in presenting something about your programme will allow others to learn from your experience and you also get the benefit of wider exposure for your product. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CATALOGUE CONTENTS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Even though not all of the applications listed in this chapter provide sources, they do make good examples of what can be achieved with Turbo Vision. BIBLIOGRAPHIC SERVICES SinoCat Wee-San Lee NETWORK SOFTWARE INCLUDING SL/IP AND TCP/IP DOSLynx the University of Kansas NEURAL NETWORKS the Welstead programmes PC UTILITIES HDInfo James Thorpe w/source: free NewsWerthy William Werth Upfront Rachel Polanskis PROCESS CONTROL DAQPAK and MAST Craig Schlenter TEXT MANAGEMENT LaTeX2hyp Roger Nelson VOCATIONAL GUIDANCE JIIC-CAL Career Advice Package Alan Dobbie BORLAND INTERNATIONAL PRODUCTS the Integrated Development Environment for some versions of Borland C++ the spreadsheet, Quattro Pro Because of the similarities in appearence with applications written using Turbo Vision, this seems an appropriate place to mention these two products. However, the BC3.1 IDE was not written with Turbo Vision. It was written with an in-house library that has grown over the years from the TC1.0 version. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- APPLICATIONS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sinocat ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Purpose of the application SinoCat is a library technical services tool which is the first cumulated edition of the Chinese National Bibliography on CD-ROM. The cataloging database comprises 200,000 Chinese records from the National Central Library, Taiwan, ROC. Distribution category SinoCat is a commercial product which is now marketed in Taiwan. Availability The source code is not available and is copyright. Description of application You use SinoCat to locate books or articles by selecting one of the available options such as general search (search by keyword), boolean search (full text searching with boolean operators), browse, etc. Once the reference is found, it shows a cataloging screen with title, author, description, ISBN, location, etc. It supports retrospective conversion effectively and downloads into the local system in ISO-2709 structure. The application also performs original cataloging, supports printed catalogue cards, processing labels and various kinds of reports. It also provides a lot of important information on-line (context-sensitive help) like Chinese MARC, cataloging rules, etc. Developmental problems Conflict with the Chinese System. Although this is not the main point, source code of TV 1.03 was modified to allow it to work well with the Chinese System. TListBox. The programmer wanted to list over 64k of items on the screen due to large amount of database in CD-ROM, but could not do so. Finally, he inherited a class from TListBox to read a certain number of items at a time and read others when necessary. Size of executable. SinoCat is a huge application which does a lot of things for librarians. Its size is over 640k and relies on the overlay provided by Borland. The author tried to use Blinker 3.0 which indicated that it could load the program to protected mode without modifying source code, but it failed. Size of DGROUP. Because there is a lot of data structures and variables in this application, the size of DATA_SEG is over 64k. Using objxref.exe provided by Borland, the author inspected the size of each function which he modified by declaring auto variables or arrays to be global, using modifier 'far' to force variables to be far and the like - in order to minimize the size of DATA_SEG. Context-sensitive help. The programmer used TVHC to make context-sensitive help for the application. The problem was that the help could not tab backward through the help screens which he overcame by simply defining a keyword pointing to the previous help screen. Reason for choosing Turbo Vision First of all, this application was developed in DOS because it was the common platform (DOS + Chinese System) for the library in Taiwan at that time. This is the main reason. Secondly, TV provides context-sensitive help which is used widely in the application. Thirdly, TV provides a very impressive user interface. Last, TV is, in the opinion of Wee-San Lee, very similar to OWL 1.0 and should not be difficult to port applications from TV to OWL 1.0. The application was written using TV1.03. Contact Wee-San Lee formerly of FlySheet Information Inc. (Taiwan) <wlee@chaph.usc.edu>. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- DOSLynx (alpha release) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Purpose of the application DosLynx is a distributed hypertext browser with some World Wide Web capabilities supporting DOS users. Distribution category DosLynx is copyrighted by the University of Kansas and is free for instructional and research educational use. Non-educational use will be licensed at a later date. Availability DosLynx is available in its source and binary forms by binary anonymous FTP from ftp://ftp2.cc.ukans.edu/pub/WWW/DosLynx/ The self-extracting archive file name is DLX0_8A.EXE; the source file name is SCR0_8A.ZIP. Description of application DosLynx is a straightforward menu driven application. It supports the following URL types: file, ftp, gopher, http, news, wais. DosLynx is a MDI (multiple document interface) application, so each window represents an open file at any given time. The application can download an inline image and display inline GIFs; it has a mail developer and will suggest a file name when prompting the user to save a file. A feature of DosLynx is its blind support. The /B command line option was implemented to aid blind users using DosLynx with a screen reader. Developmental problems 640K barrier: Documents are, therefore, written to disk to save memory and then read from disk in chunks to display on the screen. On the one hand, the application is adversely affected but, on the other, it pays off in that large documents can be displayed - sometimes! CERN libwww 2.14: This code was hard to port to DOS because the code is not well written (it still has many remaining memory leaks) and, in many cases, there were no correlating system functions from unix to dos. TCP/IP driver: Integrating the WATTCP as the tcp/ip package was not so hard, but that left only DOS packet driver enabled machines as the market. Combining sources: The three code sources combined (libwww, wattcp and doslynx) run dangerously close to the 64K limit in DGROUP. Time: Once the original author (Garrett Arch Blythe) was put in control of both Lynx and DosLynx about May 1994, there was little time for dedicated DosLynx development. There was a hiatus in the application's development between August 1994 and early 1995 when Ravi Kolli is reported to have taken over the project at the Kansas University <doslynx@lark.cc.ukans.edu> Reason for choosing Turbo Vision DosLynx was developed, ground up, from late November 1993 to mid May 1994 on a 386sx16 4M Ram 40M hard drive; around a 40 minute compile time. Unknown to the rest of the world, Lynx had been ported to DOS one year earlier by the author. This was the pre-WWW capable version of Lynx. When the second chance came around, he decided to use TV because it was first and foremost readily available and familiar. It cleanly cut DosLynx and Lynx into two seperate entities. Having taken a long time deciding what to call this DOS www browser, it became, in the end, simply DosLynx because Lynx was already associated with the Kansas University though the two browsers had nothing in common. Also, TV would help with the implementation of the forms interface. This was never done, in part, due to the lack of support in the libwww for forms. Contact Garrett Arch Blythe http://home.mcom.com/people/blythe blythe@netscape.com Netscape Communications Corporation +1 415 528 2639 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Newswerthy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Purpose of the application NewsWerthy offline reader for DOS is used to read and reply to usenet messages in the SOUP format. These are generally generated by uqwk, which is freeware. Distribution category NewsWerthy is shareware. Availability The distribution file name is NWRTH1??.ZIP. It is copyright and no source code is available. Description of the application SOUP packets are uncompressed using pkunzip. The newsgroups are then organized into a listbox so that a newsgroup can be selected. The messages are also listed in a listbox. Each message is read in a TScroller window, with many options available from the status line, such as save to file, reply, etc. Replies are compressed using pkzip. The messages in the reply packet can be edited with an external editor. Messages can also be deleted. The list of messages can be sorted by date, from, subject or no sort. Developmental problems The library is compilied with 80286 code, which meant recompiling the library so that 8088 systems could run the program. There are several bugs, one of which the author corrected himself. There is a bug which causes monochrome systems to generate a divide by 0 error in any dialog boxes that use TInputLine (has to do with the cursor). The bug fix that resulted has been added to the rest gathered on the CompuServe TurboVision forum. Reason for choosing Turbo Vision Basically, because it came with Borland C++ 3.1 and, at the time, the author wanted to write a DOS program. Contact William Werth (Bill) billw@eskimo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Upfront ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Purpose of the application A file and program manager. Distribution category The academic version of Upfront is site specific and subject to a site licence. Upfront as shareware is not yet available but will be shortly at USD30.00. Availability The code is copyright and is not available. Description of the application The application is a user friendly shell for launching programmes (from a list of programmes nominated by the user) without having to go near the DOS prompt. Upfront provides a number of file and disk functions commonly used in MSDOS such as a file finder, disk formatter and calls MSDOS programmes such as backup and restore. It performs background printing and contains context sensitive on-line help for the novice PC user. Developmental problems The main problem was, for an inexperienced beginner in C++, the manuals and the learning curve associated with Turbo Vision. Many concepts were not presented clearly and the documentation provided was not aimed at a completely new programmer. This problem was overcome by experimentation and asking lots of questions. Reason for choosing Turbo Vision Consistency with software already purchased. The application was developed on a 386SX16, a 486DX2/66 and a 486BL75 using BC3.1/TV1.03 for 8088+ and up. Contact Rachel Polanskis at grove@zeta.org.au ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Schlenter ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The two applications under this heading are known as DAQPAK (Data AQuisition PAcKage) and MAST (Manual and Automatic Scheduling Tool) respectively. Purpose of application (a) A program to read an A/D converter connected to some strain gauges and plot some cute pictures of stress vs. strain as rocks are crushed - the code contains a cute circular buffer based interrupt routines (commercial). (b) A manual and automatic scheduling tool that uses a modified list scheduling heuristic and user interaction to schedule tasks from a block diagram onto a multiprocessor transputer hardware platform - the code produces cute postscript gantt charts (Masters project). Distribution category (a) Commercial and site specific; (b) academic and project specific. Availability The author advised that he was not sure if he is allowed to distribute the code of either (a) or (b) or whether he would want to since neither is particularly cleanly written or useful to mankind outside of the environment for which it was produced. Description of application See statement above. Developmental problems and response The programs were too large for DOS mode. Debug under TD and had to run it under Pharlap to be able to debug it. The author had a messy problem getting the main program to update entries in the dialog box listbox and communicating in the other direction. Reason for choosing Turbo Vision The author stated that Turbo Vision was far less resource hungry than Windows and required less spectacular hardware to run. Also a GUI was not required for the applications written. Contact Craig Schlenter University of Natal <cschle@daisy.ee.und.ac.za> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- LaTeX2hyp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Purpose of application LaTeX2hyp is a program which converts LaTeX to ASCII text file documents. Distribution category Freely distributable but not public domain. Do not redistibute modified sources. Availability Distribution includes: sources, executable (MS-DOS or Amiga) and documentation. Archived: LHA (MS-DOS, Amiga) and Tar/compress (UNIX). ftp://iris1.bsyse.wsu.edu /pub/latex2hyp http://www.eecs.wsu.edu/coea/ (Biological Systems Engr. item /pub/latex2hyp) Email: rnelson@mail.wsu.edu MIME encoded/please specify version. Description of application LaTeX2hyp is not just a deTeX program, but actually formats the text, performs character set substitutions, generates cross references, etc. Although this program is intended for LaTeX, the author has been informed that it often satisfactorily converts TeX documents as well. It can also be used to generate hypertext cross references compatible with the Borland Turbo Vision help compiler. This allows you to maintain a single document for a printed manual and Online context sensitive help, and WorldWideWeb documents! Developmental problems and response None specified. Reasons for choosing TV None specified. Contact Roger Nelson rnelson@mail.wsu.edu Biological Systems Engineering Department Washington State University, Pullman, WA 99164-6120 USA Work: +1 509 335 1100 Home: +1 509 332 8387 FAX: +1 509 335 2722 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- JIIC-CAL Career Advice Package ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This career advice package from JIIG-CAL consists of: SubjectScan, FormScore, Pathfinder and Explorer. Purpose of the application SubjectScan: Suggest subjects for a young client to study at school. FormScore: Generate an interest profile and job suggestions for a client via OMR read forms - large batches. Pathfinder: Generate an interest profile and job suggestions for a client; PC user interface - single clients. Explorer: Allows client to access a database of jobs with several different search tools e.g. job factors, name search, level of study required. Distribution category The applications that form part of this package are commercial. Availability Code is unavailable. Description of application SubjectScan: Psychometric test - young students (about say 12 or 13 years) fill in forms in response to a set of questions - OMR scans forms, software processes responses and generates reports for the student, giving lists of subjects in groups most likely -> least likely to suit the student for study. FormScore: Psychometric tests - clients (14-18 or 18+ yrs) fill in forms in response to a set of questions - OMR scans forms, software generates reports - Interest Profile, Job Suggestions and information, pros and cons for any specific job. Pathfinder: Psychometric tests - clients (14-18 or 18+) respond to questions from the software, software generates Interest Profile, Job Suggestions and information, pros & cons for any specific job. Explorer: Allows client to access a database of jobs with several different search tools e.g. job factors, name search, level of study required, careers library area. Developmental problems and response Poor documentation - persevere. Many classes in TV not well coded for inheriting - tended to use TV's more basic classes and build up what we required. Trying to keep up-to-date with TV bug fixes - code around problems and avoid upgrading to unknowns. Reason for choosing Turbo Vision Needed standard interface, easy to use, attractive front end for software. The applications were developed on PC 486 33MHz, DOS 6.2, BC 3.1, TV 1.03 for 8086+ targets. Contact Alan Dobbie Edinburgh University Alan@srv1.jig.ed.ac.uk ======================================================================= EXIT TVPLUS ======================================================================= Thank you for using this service which, we hope, you will use again soon. Because this material is copyright, you may not reproduce this document or parts of this document by any means without the consent of Robert Hazeltine and Rachel Polanskis except to the limited extent essential for review. We would appreciate a copy of any such review. A general consent has been given to reproduce this document only under the terms outlined in the section Distribution rights and no other. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Acknowledgements ----------------------------------------------------------------------- TVPlus wishes to acknowledge the assistance of: CRAIG SCHLENTER Craig Schlenter maintained the first FAQ about Turbo Vision for C++ until December 1994 while studying at the University of Natal, Durban, South Africa. The information he put together on TV became the point of departure for the original issue of TVPlus published in January 1995. After Craig gained his BSc Eng (Electronics) and submitted his thesis for an MSc Eng (Electrical), he started work as a C programmer/ electronics engineer in February 1995. His interests include software, digital hardware, the internet, linux and Turbo Vision. OTHER CONTRIBUTORS We would also like to thank for their overall assistance and support Eric Woodruff <mailto:72134.1150@compuserve.com> and Pat Reilly <mailto:71333.2764@compuserve.com> Our special appreciation to the following people for their contributions to TVPlus Scott Sumners <mailto:scottasumn@aol.com> Frank Hohmann <mailto:fhohman@rols1.oec.uni-osnabrueck.de> Eddie Stassen <mailto:stasseed@telkom11.telkom.co.za> Vincent Van Den Berghe <mailto:vvdh@knuth.bvd.be> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- APPENDIX A -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From r.polanskis@kilo.uws.EDU.AU Tue Aug 1 11:10:09 1995 Received: from kilo.uws.EDU.AU (kilo.uws.EDU.AU [137.154.156.30]) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA01948 for <grove@zeta.org.au>; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 11:05:50 +1000 Received: from kilo.uws.edu.au ([137.154.212.165]) by kilo.uws.EDU.AU with SMTP id AA10190 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for <grove@zeta.org.au>); Tue, 1 Aug 1995 11:04:44 +1000 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 11:04:44 +1000 Message-Id: <199508010104.AA10190@kilo.uws.EDU.AU> X-Sender: rachelp@kilo.uws.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: grove@zeta.org.au From: James Love <love@Essential.ORG> (by way of r.polanskis@nepean.uws.edu.au (Rachel Polanskis)) Subject: Ralph Nader on WINDOWS 95 Problems Status: RO ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- TAP-INFO - An Internet newsletter available from listproc@tap.org ----------------------------------------------------------------- TAXPAYER ASSETS PROJECT - INFORMATION POLICY NOTE July 31, 1995 MICROSOFT WINDOWS 95 - Ralph Nader and James Love send letter to Clinton Administration outlining criticism of two features of Microsoft WINDOWS 95. - Letter objects to Microsoft decision to "bundle" its new Microsoft Network (MSN) with WINDOWS 95, and the Microsoft "Registration Wizard," which provides Microsoft with information on files located on customer hard disk. - Nader and Love express support for Department of Justice (DOJ) antitrust action to address both problems, and ask Clinton to prevent federal agencies from buying WINDOWS 95 until the information gathering features of the "Registration Wizard" are disabled or modified. jamie (love@tap.org; 202/387-8030) The letter follows. Ralph Nader P.O. Box 19312, Washington, DC 20036 James Love Consumer Project on Technology P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 love@tap.org; voice 202/387-8030 July 26, 1995 President William Clinton the White House Washington, DC Dear President Clinton, We are writing to ask you and your administration to take actions which address problems arising from Microsoft's near monopoly position in the market for personal computer operating systems. As you know, two features of Microsoft's WINDOWS 95 software have been widely criticized -- the "bundling of Microsoft Network (MSN) and Microsoft's online "Registration Wizard." These issues are discussed below. 1. Microsoft Network. The "bundling" of Microsoft Network (MSN) with WINDOWS 95 has raised alarm among Microsoft's competitors that Microsoft will use its dominate market position for operating system software to give MSN an enormous advantage over its rivals in the market for online service providers. In brief, Microsoft has written its new version of Windows with a built-in way to register for its new online service. According to reports by beta users of the product, Microsoft has given the MSN a very high priority, including a special icon which cannot be deleted by the user, and periodic queries by the operating system to the user, encouraging registration. Apparently no other rival online services vendor will have the opportunity to receive similar status within Windows 95. In our view, Microsoft's actions are a predictable attempt to exploit its dominance in the operating system market to benefit its penetration into other fields that are potentially more competitive. One analogy to this practice is in the area of airplane reservations. American Airlines operated the dominant online service for airline reservations, and arranged the available flights in alphabetical order, giving American Airlines what turned out to be a large advantage over its rivals. The government subsequently regulated this practice, so that the online reservations systems would not be used in an anti- competitive manner. We believe it is appropriate and justified for the Department of Justice to take actions that would prevent Microsoft from bundling MSN with WINDOWS 95 as has been done in their beta releases of the product. 2. Registration Wizard. Another objectionable feature of WINDOWS 95 is the Microsoft online "Registration Wizard." This part of the program is designed to scan automatically a user's hard disk, dial-up Microsoft, and download information to Microsoft about the files on the user's hard disk, including the titles and versions of software applications. Critics of this practice, including the Department of Defense, have questioned the impact of this practice on data security and privacy. Microsoft's rivals also believe that it will give Microsoft an enormous advantage in marketing by virtue of the fact that it gives Microsoft excellent intelligence on its competitors, including the names and addresses of their customers. Microsoft has defended the Wizard by saying that the information is gathered to help its product support personnel debug its software, and that consumers can choose not to send the information to Microsoft. We believe that both arguments are disingenuous. First of all, the registration process is separate from customer service, and if Microsoft really wanted to use the information for customer service it could devise far less intrusive methods of doing so, such as a program to printout relevant information for use during a consumer service call, rather than at the point of registration. Secondly, consumers are likely to be confused and intimidated by the registration process, because of concerns that this complex software might not function correctly if they refuse to give Microsoft the information it wants to collects. In our view, the Registration Wizard is an intrusive measure that uses technology to erode customer privacy, and we urge you to take steps to discourage its use. Specifically, we urge you to ask OMB officials Sally Katzen, Administer of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA), and Stephen Kelman, Administrator for Federal Procurement Policy, to issue a directive to all federal agencies, advising them not to purchase WINDOWS 95 with the Registration Wizard. This would be similar to the very successful actions taken by federal agencies in the 1980's to refuse to purchase spreadsheet and database software that placed "hidden" files on hard disks as part of copyright protection schemes, a proactive measure which moved the entire market away from such ill-conceived practices. We also believe it is appropriate and justified for the Department of Justice to take actions that would prevent Microsoft from sharing the information gathered from the Registration Wizard with its marketing personnel. Please let us know what you will do about these important matters. Sincerely Ralph Nader James Love Consumer Project on Technology ps: Of course, we were pleased to read press reports that Microsoft recently said it would make the MSN abide by the European Union's Directive on Data Protection, and we urge Microsoft's competitors in online services, such as American Online, Prodigy or Compuserve, to embrace these rules which protect customer privacy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- TAP-INFO is an Internet Distribution List provided by the Taxpayer Assets Project (TAP). TAP was founded by Ralph Nader to monitor the management of government property, including information systems and data, government funded R&D, spectrum allocation and other government assets. TAP-INFO reports on TAP activities relating to federal information policy. TAP-INFO is archived at gopher.essential.org in the Taxpayer Assets Project directory, and at http://www.essential.org/tap/tap.html Subscription requests to tap-info to listproc@tap.org with the message: subscribe tap-info your name --------------------------------------------------------------------- Taxpayer Assets Project; P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 v. 202/387-8030; f. 202/234-5176; internet: tap@tap.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- ================ END OF TEXT ===================== -- Rachel Polanskis grove@zeta.org.au Robert Hazeltine http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html r.polanskis@nepean.uws.edu.au ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~