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From: "James J. Lippard" <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: Sai Baba
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1992 13:45:30 -0700

Sai Baba is an Indian "God-man" who is known for magically materializing
bits of ash, gold chains, watches, etc.  He unquestionably uses
sleight-of-hand,
and can be clearly seen doing so in a videotape distributed by his followers.
Dale Beyerstein of the British Columbia Skeptics has written a book
examining his claims titled _Sai Baba's Miracles: An Overview_, which
I highly recommend.  (The book is $10 U.S. from Beyerstein, whose address
I don't have handy at the moment.  I'll look it up and post it later,
or feel free to send me email asking.)

Jim



From: Allan=W.=[e-mail]
Subject:      re: Sai Baba
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1992 09:28:46 EST

I'm aware that Sai Baba has been around since the 60's at least.  There is a
book out on him and the miracles he performs - I haven't read it  but I've
picked it up several times and scanned through it.  The miracles described are
truly amazing, which for you skeptics should give you plenty of material to
discredit, reject, disprove, deny, ridicule, or otherwise explain away with
your perfectly logical and untouchable scientific methodology.  I didn't buy
the book because I feel it is another true account of the remarkable abilities
of the many mystics/sidhis/yogis who can do these and other such things that
baffle the western scientists.  I've also seen a TV program (which I think I
taped - will check if asked), probably Unsolved Mysteries or The Strange World
of Arthur C. Clark, whcich did a segment on Sai Baba, showing him
materializing holy ashes from his hands and spreading them on the crowds.  It
was also stated that holy ashes would materialize even from a picture of him
after he had passed by(or after he handed them out, I'm not sure).  The other
miracles he performs are to materialize food from his mouth and hands, and
materialize jewelry of gold and precious stones which he then gives away
freely.

Now, before you all go nuts and jump on my case as if I'M the one proclaiming
all these things to be true, just hold your horses!  I'm not an expert on
SaiBaba, I haven't read the book, I know nothing more about him than what I've
written, I don't promote mystics, I'm not a follower, I've done no
"scientific" investigations, I've done no literature search, -AND I CLAIM
NOTHING!!!  So, go have your fun please.

                                                ****STARSHIP TROOPER****




From: "James J. Lippard" <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Sai Baba critique
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1992 17:18:19 -0700
Those interested in obtaining Dale Beyerstein's book, _Sai Baba's
Miracles: An Overview_, may do so by sending $10 (U.S.) to:

   Dale Beyerstein
   1267 W. 70th Ave., Apt. A
   Vancouver, BC
   Canada V6P 2Y4

Last I heard, he was running low on copies, so you might want to
ask via email ([e-mail]) if there are any left.

This book leaves little doubt that Sai Baba's miracles are tricks.



From: Dr John Gillies <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Gurus and Skeptics (India)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:16:20 GMT,BST

Most subscribers to SKEPTIC will know of Premanand ("India's James
Randi") who travels the country giving "performances" of the kinds of
feats performed by gurus and "holy men" and revealing how these
effects are (or, can be, as Allan McClure will want me to say)
achieved by trickery. Apparently, Premanand regards Sai Baba as his
particular "bete noire" and is engaged in a Randi-Geller style legal
battle against him. Does anyone have further information about this
legal action? What stage has it reached? What are its basic aspects?

Premanand is the founder of the monthly "Indian Skeptic"
(annual subscription 12 US dollars from Indian Skeptic,
10 Chettipalayam Road, Podanur 641 023, Tamilnadu, India)


John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: [phone] ext.5351
Scotland
                         [e-mail]




From: "James J. Lippard" <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: Sai Baba critique
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 12:22:57 -0700

>Date: 17 Dec 1992 08:29:09 -0500 (EST)
>From: Allan=W.=[e-mail]
>Subject: Sai Babs critique

> Interesting to hear from James Lippard that the book that debunks SaiBaba and
>the videotape that his followers distribute constitute the "proof" that his
>miracles are done by sleight-of-hand.  Do all you skeptics accept this
>"unquestionably" as Jim suggests?  If so, then it seems your favorite
>and most famous collaborator, Mr. Randi, is spending a lot of unecessary time
>and energy to debunk someone like, let's say, Uri Geller.  He should just
>write a book and view some films of Uri bending spoons and such and then
>proclaim the obvious - that Uri's a fake.  After all isn't the favored

See James Randi, _The Truth About Uri Geller_, from Prometheus Books.  It
has some revealing photos.  Also see David Marks and Richard Kammann, _The
Psychology of the Psychic_, also from Prometheus.

>argument for verifying "claims" one that says if there's a simpler explanation
>then that's the right one?  If this is true then why does Randi have to try so
>hard to prove Uri is a fake?  Given today's technology and the
>fact that most anything we can dream up we can produce, it seems child's play
>to concoct a sleight-of-hand demonstration that could serve as an alternate
>explanation for Uri's apparent powers.  Just because such a demonstration can
>be devised doesn't necessarily mean that Uri, or Sai Baba, DOESN'T have such
>power, IMHO.

That is correct--just because a magician can duplicate an effect with
trickery doesn't mean that's how the alleged psychic is doing it.  All
it shows is that there is a non-paranormal *possible* explanation.
In the case of Sai Baba, however, he has been caught on videotape using
trickery.  You have to know where and when to look, though.  The section
of Beyerstein's book on Sai Baba which discusses the videotape tells you
exactly where and when to look, and was co-authored by several magicians.

>Another issue - who thinks that Sai Baba's followers would be so dumb as to
>promote him with films that are so obviously being faked?  Don't they see the

They aren't "obviously faked" *unless* you know what to look for.
The average person watching David Copperfield on television won't detect
trickery, either.

>sleight-of-hand being performed? - after all, they see him in PERSON and
>can't(or won't as some of you may argue) see the tricks, but apparently
>skeptics can see the tricks quite clearly ON A FILM!  I'm surprised that a

Actually, the film/video viewer has an advantage--he can watch in slow
motion and get instant replays.

>skeptic would be so content to readily accept such damming
>"evidence."  I bet if someone said that UFO's have been captured on film
>(referencing the most recent claims from home video buffs in Mexico City) that
>the skeptics would have mucho explanations on how such events can be so easily
>and readily faked, especially ones on film!  I think you need to call Randi in
>on this one and ask him to devise a sleight-of-hand demonstration to debunk
>the film - it's not consistent to use the very film you are trying to debunk
>as the proof of it's falsity.

Your reasoning escapes me here.  What better proof of fakery than a tape
of the actual claimant visibly using sleight-of-hand?

>I'm sorry, but apparently no one made the connection to other mystics/gurus/
>sidhis/yogis that I did when I commented on Sai Baba's apparent abilities.
>These are people who can do extraordinary things via their Eastern
>belief/religion/philosophy which baffle Western science.  To label Sai
>Baba a trickster on such scanty evidence as a videotape and a book without
>even acknowledging this man's religious/mystical heritage is certainly doing
>him an injustice and demonstrates how easily even you so-called fair-minded
>skeptics fall into the same traps you love to uncover - disregarding pertinent
>relevant peripheral information, and believing YOU have the one correct
>explanation, from one book, NOW, that negates all the work of this man's life
>for the last 25 years!

Sai Baba claims to be omniscient, to have raised the dead, and to create
objects (ash, watches, gold chains, etc.) from nothing.  Beyerstein looks
closely at all of these claims.  It is rather easy to prove that someone
is not omniscient--demonstrate that the person gets something wrong or
fails to know something, and Beyerstein proves that beyond all doubt
by quoting published statements of Sai Baba from writings of his proponents.

>                                                ****STARSHIP TROOPER****

>P.S. I confess I have not read "Flim-Flam," or "Sai Baba, An Overview," nor
>have I seen the videotape in question.

I suggest you examine Beyerstein's book and watch the videotape, then
see if you still think Sai Baba doesn't use sleight-of-hand.