Okay, I'm going to get labelled as a racist, but what the
hell...
Why do so many Asians litter? I'm not thinking of alleyways
and stuff, but in National Parks in Korea, Taiwan, Thailand
and China, I've seen just amazing amounts of garbage thrown
around. Granted, the government isn't real good at making
trashcans convienient, and yes there is littering in the
west, but either it's not this bad or it's picked up more.
I'm not an eco-freak, and I know environmental issues are
fairly new over here...but how "green" do you have to be to
realize "Gee whiz, maybe I shouldn't just throw my empty
beer cans on the beach."
[There are 22 posts - the latest was added on Thu 15 April, 22:44]
Use the form at the end of this page to add your own post.
Topics
| Thorn Tree
| Home
I don't know if this is directly related but I worry about
the craze for individual transport as opposed to developing
mass transit, the spread of tobacco (I doubt if corrupt
governments in the region can really resist the
multinationals whose market is shrinking in the US and
elsewhere and so forth)
To get closer to your concern, I guess it's a case of
lack of education. So long as people lived in their villages
with fresh soil and abundant water and sunshine and threw
away organic matter, spat, defecated left and right, it was
no big deal, all was absorbed. Rapid urbanisation and lack
of reorientation/education leads to problems. Wonder if you
agree.
I've often asked this same question. I don't know if I have
any answer. It's a shame, but I don't think they even think
twice when they do it. It's out of habit now, and no one
around them seems to care either. In Thailand, they have a
few days a year where they go out and clean up or plant
trees, etc. I remember taking my students out to plant
trees on the Queen's Birthday. I had to go around and make
sure my students collected all the plastic the trees came
in. They were just tossing them wherever.
The way companies package many of their products is
also disgusting and a big waste. It would take a major ad
campaign or a push by the government to enforce any laws.
Having traveled and lived in Asia, I can there are many
laws. Enforcing them is another story. It's a sad
situation.
I have often wondered why people in HK and China have so
little regard for their environment. They keep their houses
and themselves spotlessly clean, yet anywhere beyond the
doorstep they treat like a big garbage tip.
I think itÆs a wider cultural thing about attitudes to
nature. In Chinese culture at least, it seems that natural
things are seen as ôbackwardö, and nature is something to
be conquered and exploited. Just look at Hong Kong æs parks
û whoever designed them obviously hates grass and any-thing
natural. Kowloon park is just a maze of concrete paths,
rock forma-tions and patches of bare ground.
And just as Chinese have little regard for anyone with whom
they donÆt have a personal connection, likewise they seem
to believe that care of the environment is someone elseÆs
problem.
I was recently reading a report on a joint EEC-ChinaÆs
nature conser-vancy project in Sichuan. The Chinese
conservationists wrote ôWe were most impressed by our
European colleagueÆs habit of keeping their litter in bags
and taking it home with themö.
If this is the attitude of people who care about the
environment, can you imagine what the ordinary folk are
like.
Perhaps the only way to foster a more positive attitude
towards the envi-ronment is to play on the resurgent
nationalism/paranoia and convince the Chinese that
pollution/litter is somehow a foreign plot against China.
And in Hong Kong, perhaps a refundable cash bond would help
ensure that visitors to country parks tok care of their
garbage.
In Japan I've often noticed that the cities are reasonably
litter free, but the country side areas, mountain trails are
dreadful. Then one morning I figured it, there are troops of
blue and pink uniformed ladies that pick up the litter in
the cities. So I wondered if in Japan the reason for the
disgusting state of the countryside is because they have
gotten used to having people pick up litter for them, so
they just drop it anywhere. In the city it gets picked up,
in the countryside it doesn't.
I also think that #3 may have it right in that there is this
kind of "So long as it's not in my backyard it doesn't
matter" policy; once watched a householder in Kyoto picking
up papers from in front of his house - and then just dump
them inside the entrance to the park opposite!
A few years ago I was told that the path up Mount Fuji is flanked by litter on both sides as far out as the arm can throw. Evidently the mountaineering traditon of "pack it out" is not followed and the many climbers just pitch their cans and papers. Since this is a location of major historical significance it would seem that it would be free of litter, but not so, at least a few years ago. Have things improved recently?
I was just in Shenzhen "Window of the World' theme park.
Even there the amount of rubbish is amazing. On the other
hand, I have seen very few litter bins. The logic is
probably ' why litter bins, people don't use them anyway.
Well....
My friend said 'I don't understand coz labout is cheap..'
but see, no labour is even chaeper.
No, things haven't changed. The litter on Mt Fuji is as bad
as you say. The actual path is just about OK, but there is
litter strewn along either side and heaps of it in any
hollow or ditch. It is one enormous garbage heap.
You mentioned the mountaineering tradition on "packing it
out", but most of the people who climb Fuji are not
mountaineers. Despite its height, Fuji is an easy mountain
to climb and every year hoardes of people with no idea about
wilderness preservation climb it, from kids to grandmas. So
it's not a case of these people not following the tradition,
but probably not even knowing about it. It's probably like
Jenny said, they expect someone will come along and clean
up after them like they do in the city, so they just drop
their cans and paper where they stand.
Incidentally, the people who climb Mt Fuji often know
nothing about mountain climbing, and quite a few succumb to
altitude sickness each year. Mt. Fuji might be an easy
mountain to climb, but it is still pretty high!
Yep living in Japan makes me wonder if I'm living in a huge
rubbish tip. This place is attrocious really. Goes also for
their general lack of regard towards their environment,
building incinerators willy nilly, dumping chemical and
toxic waste into their rivers and so on. One day it will all
flick back in their face. Who said Japan is an educated
nation. Me thinks they're pretty stupid really.
for noticing that people in some countries have a tendency
to litter. I, too, have wondered why people in Korea, who
take great pride in the natural beauty of their country,
treat national parks like giant garbage dumps. A friend
who can't stand the site of trash on the ground always
picks up at least two bags of trash at any national park we
visit. It is appalling to see empty boxes of soju stuffed
between the branches of a tree. Part of the problem is a
lack of trash cans, but part of the problem, too,is a lack
of consciousness, I think. Nobody thinks twice about
pitching garbage on the street.
Bear in mind we in the West have only V-E-R-Y recently
developed a sense of the wild Earth as shrinking,
vulnerable and precious. And that we tend to combine
that with an almost as recent habit of tidiness which gives
us a sensitivity to litter and the environment we can't
reasonably expect others to buy into immediately.
Besides, Chinese and Japanese are generally much less
sensitive to what we would call uglness. I mean - look at
their architecure.
And that 'we' is only some of us. I'd say that most Brits
couldn't give a monkeys and will discard anything anywhere.
Slobbier Brits don't go near mountains and beauty spots,
whereas Mount Fuji has a wider clientele so you're maybe not
comparing like with like.
We DO pick up more in the west. But not always and I've
seen some appalling piles of food and film wrappings in
British and Irish beauty spots that are easy of access but
difficult to patrol Regular cleaning does set a standard
and has the effect of making potential litter droppers a
little bit more conscious of what they're doing - there's
some sort of maintenance&pride /
nonmaintenance&what-the-hell formula that town planners
study.
But having said all that, I know lots of individual Japanese
and Chinese hate the litter they see around them and would
never themselves discard carelessly.
Don't know about Japan but I'd have to disagree with your comment on China, they have a great aesthetic tradition going back thousands of years. I think you are dismissing all Chinese arcitecture pre 1950 or so. Factories and high rises are never beautiful, no matter what the country, but these guys need somewhere to work and live. An industrialising country with 1.2 billion people is going to generate a certain amount of ugliness no matter what you do. But I would agree that maybe socialist ideology has made things unnecessarily functional looking.
As for litter, I think a large part of the problem stems from the fact that most people have got more pressing things to worry about. Concern over the environment is a bit of a luxury and if you live from hand to mouth it would I suppose be something not to burden yourself with. However that certainly doesn't explain it all as I've seen peolple litter when it would have been LESS trouble to throw things away carefully. Work that one out.
Having lived in China and HK for 14 years, I totally agree about the lack of interest in the environment. I have seen very well educated people who are certainly not living hand-to-mouth chuck their garbage on country walks. However, the thing that amazes me just as much is how many Europeans smoke! You can almost guarantee that if a foriegner is smoking, they'll be European, especially if they are also 'trendy', 'green', or 'alternative', and they do it a lot more than the 'exploited by the west' locals. And just take a look at where these people throw their cigarette butts afterwards! It certainly isn't in an ashtray. Just a personal gripe, but also a reminder that in many respects the western mentality is no better.
Most of the observations more or less mesh with my
thinking...that it's a result of the incredibly rapid
modernization, and with that the thinking that
Modern=urban=manmade=good.
I also understand Leslie's comment about architecture. I
remember one Korean freind being shocked that most US
houses are "still" made of wood. He thought that concrete
houses were much better.
A small point, but Hong Kong has bins coming out of its
arse. This doesn't stop people from littering. Why would it?
Why if the people stopped litering then there would be one
less job for those old ladies who are up at the crack of
dawn in every city in China!
Japanese are certainly very civilized but boy, do they like
their garbage! Try to go to a "hanami" cherry blossoms in
Ueno Park.It's coming up soon. No wonder some people call
it "gomi-mi" (gomi means garbage).The mountains of plastic
bags, bottles, cans, paper etc compete with the cherry
blossoms overhead . and lots of drunk people in between.
This certainly contrasts with mostly spotless houses, they
do clean them just about every day. My theory about all
this si that the Japanese (and probably other populous
nations in Asia) just have to unwind; they are so mane of
them, they live very close to each other and they are just
surrounded by noise and GARBAGE. So you just insulate
yoursef from all of it and keep your little turf clean.
It's a horrible mess out there, outside your little cocoon
but you can do bugger all about it.
I live in Korea - I've been told by Koreans that people
litter because of status issues - it's seen as low status to
clean up garbage, even your own. Yangban (noble) people
never had to clean, so now everybody wants to be yangban.
I have also seen civic groups out cleaning up the paths on
the mountains, but there is way too much garbage there to
deal with this way unless people stop littering.
The university students who I teach are becoming concerned
about the environment, but as of yet can only conceive of
bandaid solutions to deal with the problems.
Actually, in Central America they have the same attitude
towards littering, or worse - I remember one mother on a
first class bus in Mexico helping her young son to throw a
drink can out the window - and so the process is learned.
That's the key. When you have more people per sq. mile than
a certain number, shit happens. The solution is to migrate
a couple hundred million people to the U.S. (maybe half?)
from China, since the Americans are also so concern that
average Chinese family can't have their "human rights" to
have as many kids as they want. The U.S. can definitely
hold another couple billions. How about some people from
Japan and India too?
Europe is too crowded already, that's the thing with the
sigarette butts.
See, that solves all. End of discussion.
Another big contributing factor is the bases of many East
Asian beliefs and the corresponding different bases of many
Western beliefs. In, for example, Confucianism, morality
is what you might call relative; your family comes first,
friends second, people you know third, people you don't
know next, and so on, on out to inanimate objects. Notice
that most East Asian folsk take great care of their
families and vice versa -- and note that they often
criticize Westerners for being uncaring about their
families. Conversely, they just have no concern (not that
they ignore something, they just have the concern in the
first place) about things unrelated to them.
Westerners, on the other hand, tend to think that
everything and everyone are equal under the eyes of the Law
(be it God, physics, ethics or whatever). Thus, "Thou
shalt not lie." Not, "Thou shalt not lie except when it's
to protect a friend from something that would disturb
them," but "thou shalt not lie" -- ever, to anyone, about
anything.
So what does all that mean? When (for example) a Taiwanese
person throws a piece of garbage on the ground, they're not
doing anything wrong in their eyes -- they're not hurting
anyone related to them, or anything related to them. Of
course, for a westerner, it's heinous. But if a Westerner,
for example, wastes time picking up garbage when that time
could be spent doing something for their family, then the
Westerner is committing an equally-bad act.
Does that make sense? Does that sound racist? I think it
explains a lot -- traffic, litter, some parts of the
education systems, etc.
Personally, I thin kthe best way to combat any problems we
see is with Buddhism -- the most pervasive, most-
universalist belief system around. I mean, Buddhism has a
lot of the same absolutist morals as, for example,
Judaism. The thing is to get people to understand the
stuff right under their noses...
No you're not necessarily a racist at all. I think S.Asian , posting#1 has hit the nail righton the head..as he has pinpointed the cause. I n most rural parts of Asia, most locals have , for generations , assumed that nature reabsorbs their biodegradable waste productd. Ex.banana leaf wrapers , paper etc. Combine this factor with the urban mentality of rapid modernisation with profit and plactic....then add to this the fact that lots of asians still give more priority to cleanliness and order of their inner environment . The general view is the most of the outer world is only temporary ( and I share this view too...but only to this point) so dont worry too much about it...its only maya and illusion and temporary.
I hope thatI too won't be seen as a racist with a selected perspective for mentioning the following:
Lots of Asians make parallel but inverse observations to your question of bad sanitation but in reference of the inner environment of western society and non-chalant jettisioning of emotional garbage on each other . Expression foul energies are mostly looked down upon by asians , Ex;Thailand , but unfortunately this is interpreted by others and suppresion or repression of emotions.
In other words the western is ordered and clean on the outside whilst the inside gets more and more pollute as technology progresses.
If only both concerns could compliment one another rather than oppose by think one is more superior than the other
I appreciate and share all of the views expressed above.
I get quite angry and share guilt especially when trekking in very remote untoughed areas of this globe where litter is just starting to appear . In such situations I channel my discomfort into picking up rubbish whilst in the company of my asian hosts.
I followed everything you said, except for the last part.
If Westerners gather up all their trash after a meal, would
any Asian really think they were "wasting time" which
"could be spent on their family"? Would any Asian really
think that cleaning up your own trash was "bad" or "a waste
of time"? C'mon! Don't Asians want their families to
enjoy clean surroundings?
In fact, Koreans, who are arguably the most Confucian of
all Asians, organize occasional clean-up campaigns. Slogan-
bearing banners are hung everywhere and middle-aged men and
women walk around parks and pedestrian areas stabbing at
garbage with spears and loading the waste into their
trashbags.
And as far as I can see, a lot of the emphasis on "family"
is bogus. Families here aren't significantly more loving or
emotionally supportive that in the US. They are AROUND each
other more, and more finacially linked, but it aint like
the parents in asia love their kids more. Many many
salaryman saty out drinking every night to AVOID the
family.