at the number of unqualified people "teaching" English in
Asia or asking about doing this.
-
It makes me so angry - I hate to think what students are
getting for their money.
-
They are definitely not learning English!!!!
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In response to 'Real Teacher' who is angry over the number
of foreigners wanting to work as english teachers in Japan,
you have largely missed the point behind the purpose of most
foreigners who work there. While they are not trained
teachers they are qualified enough to meet the needs of the
language schools who employ them- and that is to teach
Conversational english skills. For this a broad mind and
people skills along with a reasonable level of intelligence
(a requirement of most language schools is for their foreign
workers to have a Bachelors degree)are sufficient
qualifications needed to teach non-english speaking students
how to speak in English. I have been a foreign student in
Chile trying to learn spanish at an institute, which was
great for vocabulary and spelling lessons but I found that I
learnt the most by being forced to have a conversation with
the local people. By exposing their students to english
conversation, the language schools are helping them to meet
their goal, which is usually to beable to communicate in
english!.
The teachers there are a scam and only rip off the locals.
Wait a while and the economy will get worse.. Thats when
they will start booting out the scum teachers.
(Real) Teacher, you have obviously not been in Asia.. or
you would not have spoken these narrow minded words.
Compared to asian education standards western influence is
a breath of fresh air which is desperately needed...
If you want to critizie some asian countries educational
teaching methods, that would be a valid point.
Assuming your post is not just flamebait, though I strongly suspect it is....
"Real Teacher" should have nothing to worry about--if you have a Master's Degree in TESL
then there are "real jobs" for you--like at a university. And as for "ripping off the locals", most
of the people you hate are working for their Asian slave-drivers, oops, bosses, who are making
ten times the money than the teachers make.
Hello. I am a "real" teacher. Or at least, I am now. I started my English teaching career 11 years ago, when I was 17 and backpacking around Asia. At the time I did not even have a high school diploma. I walked into a job teaching English conversation in Hong Kong. That was interesting and turned out to be the start of a long time in the educational field. Now I have a Masters in Tecahing ESL, am an adjunt professor at a university in the States, and instruct a methods course for other techers to learn about ESL, as well as instruct ESL classes. I have taught in Japan, Ecuador, Cuba, and the States.
My experiences as a teacher of ESL/EFL/ESOL, or however you choose to call it, have been varied and have allowed me to see some very distinct advantages between 'real' teachers and people who just happen to speak English. As someone who taught for years as an untrained, unqualified teacher, I can say that I did many hundreds of students a diservice by being their instructor. That is not to say that we did not have fun, or did not learn anything, but, comfort is often mistook for learning in these situations. Moreover, even if students happen to pick something up along the way, there really is no substitute for a well thought out, experienced teacher who can identify learning problems, and utilize techniques to make the best of each student and each situation, rather than just plow through a book or sit around a table and chat.
There are so many aspects to this- multicultural understanding also plays a vital role in the foreign classroom. Is it OK to pat a student on the shoulder in Vietnam and tell her/him "Good job!" (Obviously the answer is usually no-- but why not?) Or the more apparent, touching children on the head in SE Asia--- there are hundreds of examples. And this is just one small piece of many pieces.
The most important part if teaching ESL is to know some methodolgy. That does not mean that you know how to speak English----- and, since I am here, how many native speakers can speak proper English? By this I do not mean some rubbish like "British English" or what have you, I mean formal, correct usage. Not applicable to conversation classes, do I hear? Well, to some extent it is. One needs to know the different 'levels' of English-- how to speak to your child, friend, and boss- how to greet each of them--- et cetera.
I could go on and on about this, but this is enough--- my opinion, anyway, is to agree for the most part with "Real Teacher". Students are being ripped off by psuedo instructors who really don't know how to teach a language; whose only assets perhaps are willingness and desire, and native speaking skills.
Someone said that Asian teaching methods coud use an overhaul- I am with you there. But one must have a clear understanding of these methods in order to teach these students effectively. For example, if you have students from Japan, who are used to being given very technical information about the grammar of English, and are used to regurgitating that info on a test; working alone, memorizing, only hearing the teacher explain in Japanese the English grammar points; it will be very difficult to assimilate those students into a classroom that approaches English from a Western educational model, i.e. collaborative learning approaches and group work. These are very new concepts to the Japanese student,and it will be difficult for her/him to be comfortable and learn well.
Anyway, that's enough for now...
My main point is that it makes a huge difference to have a trained or an untrained person teaching any language.
So "real teachers" if the coice is between no english
teachers or substitute unqualified foreign teachers who at
least speak decent english the choice would be no teachers ?
Because that's what youre saying... Andrew especially if
you've been in Hong Kong you should know chinese level of
english (and teaching english) leaves a lot to be desired
(as so many western students find out every year before
they quit their studies in China and travel around instead)
My point : The choice in Asia is not qualified good local
teachers or unqualified western teachers, if it was your
points would be valid.
Andrew, why don't you come down from that high horse of
yours and join the real world?
Yes, it would be great if all of the "teachers" in SE Asia
were properly qualified with TEFL certificates, like
yourself. But if schools insisted on that, then, as Rhonda
said, there would not nearly be enough teachers to fulfil
the need. Sometimes it is necessary to make do with second
best.
And even with your TEFL qualification what gives you the
right to say that British English is not is not "proper
Englsih"? I know that American English predominates, but
that does not mean that other variants are not correct.
And before you attack the grammar of other native English
speakers, perhaps you should correct your own;
you ask "how many native speakers can speak proper English?"
but the correct grammatical construction would be "how many
native English speakers can speak English properly?"
And yet, I'm sure everyone understood what you meant, which
surely disproves your point about correct usage being
necessary.
I agree with "real teacher". I don't understand people who think it is all right to teach "the natives" English (or anything for that matter) when they're not qualified to do so. Please, spare us the condescension, that we have to settle for lousy, not up to scratch teaching or nothing. True educators would never think it right to impart half-baked nonsense to anyone, especially for selfish reasons like financing their own travels. I for one think this is unethical and amoral.
I've always tried to be willing to learn anything from
anyone who knows more than me. I learned a lot of Japanese
from an native speaker that understood high school level
English and had no training as a teacher. She corrected my
pronunciation and explained the vocabulary. The rest is
grammar which is where qualified teachers are preferable.
But, if you can't understand or make yourself understood,
grammar is irrelevant. A lot of people don't have the
choices that we have in the West and the desire to learn
still plays the biggest part of any education endeavor.
What surprises me about what has been said so far is that nobody
has said anything about why conversations schools exist in the first place. The conversation
school industry only exists to fill in the major gaps that Asian governmental education policies
leave behind. The comments of the poster and "Honto no Sensei " are valid only insofar as
the teachers are actively making curriculum decisions and teach from the fundamentals up.
But in a conversation schools, the Japanese managers and staff essentially make all the
decisions including what books to use, what pace to proceed on, what to omit, and everything
else. The people working at the conversation schools are not real teachers, but then the
conversation schools are not real schools either.
Most of the schools have similar approaches to teaching the students conversation skills, and
pretty much use the same materials. The book Side By Side for example is widely used. The
contents are nothing more than page after page of robotic drills, and if the Japanese staff could
get a trained parrot to to do it, they would. If you look around, I'm sure you'll find some people
who are incompetent, but for what most schools require the vast majority of the people there
satisfy the need--and if not, get replaced pretty quickly.
In fact, at the school where my friend worked the Japanese managers were thinking of a new
policy--to build a glass case and sit the teachers inside, and then have the students pick out
which teacher they liked and go to that class. Sort of like choosing your favorite Thai stripper
and then taking your new whore to a private room. If you really worked through graduate school
to get a degree in teaching English as a second language, which you really like to work in a
school like THAT?
And if Andrew works in a conversation factory his career really IS in the skids.
Nor is a degree in teaching English as a second language an absolute necessity. One of my
friends in Asia has a Master's degree in Education, and currently teaches at a prefectural
university as well as operating two of his own private schools. There's nothing lacking in any of
his classes. So if you have a degree in EFL, then more power to you. You should find a secure
job in an Asian university with good pay and a long-term commitment. But expecting that
instuctors in conversation schools to have the same qualifications as you is about the same as
demanding your neighborhood garage grease monkey to have a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering,
or a taxi driver to have a degree in Urban Design.
Well, I am not on any high horse, and if I gave that impression to you, Prof Grammar (rather, if you chose to see it that way) then perhaps those are your own insecurities whispering to you.
As far as my spelling and grammar being absolutely perfect in the last posting- sorry, Professor Grammar, but you did not destroy my universe by pointing out some of my errors (though I am glad that you had the chance to feel linguistically superior for a moment!)
This is not an academic site- I didn't realize that I was going to be graded.
You missed a lot of what I was trying to say- but I know that it is more popular on these sites to pick something wrong from what someone has posted, and lambast her/him over it, than to work it out or propose another point of view in a calm manner.
Now just what else did you say darling...
-Yes, making due with second best is better than nothing, perhaps, but the point of the original post, as I see it, is that a lot of students are getting less than their money and times worth. I still agree.
-I never meant to say that British English is not proper English--- though I can see how it may have been innocently misconstrued as that-- and I KNOW you would not allow any chance to slip away from you to put me in my lowly place. What I meant was, British English is not the only manner of speaking English-- a lot of people have the misconception that one type of English is superior to another-- not true, unless it is for a specific purpose. Want to work on Wall Street? Then perhaps don't learn from someone from Northern Scotland. Desire to work in a pub in London? Then maybe your teacher ought not be from Mississippi. I meant that all English is valid English, from anywhere that English is spoken. But some dialects may be better suited to different purposes.
You quibble:
"And yet, I'm sure everyone understood what you meant, which
surely disproves your point about correct usage being
necessary. "
_Again, this post is not part of a grammar class, Prof Grammar.
And now to Peter...
I do not teach at a conversation school-- I teach at a university. I train teachers to teach ESL. I once taught at a conversation school, but it was many moons ago.
Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I was not trying to get people pissed off, and I was not trying to act superiour- not at all. I was just trying to add something to the discussion based upon my own experiences in different areas of the English teaching game-- why the hell do people have to be such bastards just because they can hide behind their keyboard? Why can't a discussion be held without insults? Just try to have some manners and keep up an adult, reasonable discussion, if you can. Or stay out of it.
Personal attacks aside, it's refreshing to see a debate in
which everyone participating has something constructive to
offer and, more importantly, in which everyone is
essentially right.
Real Teacher's assertion that there are a lot of unqualified
teachers working in Asia is difficult to refute.
Unfortunately, once Real Teachers get Real Egos to match,
their teaching often suffers as they come to believe their
own methods (or the methods of other Real Teachers) are the
most beneficial to students and that Unreal Teachers have
nothing to offer. This isn't the case, as Michelle rightly
pointed out: anyone with good intentions, curiosity,
intelligence, and creativity can do a world of good for
students desperate to learn and converse from a
native-proficient speaker. These people can often teach
circles around an academic elitist or a crusty warhorse
hardened by years in the classroom. As Andrew argued, a
background in teaching methodology, psychology, and other
disciplines related to learning will raise the quality of
instruction in a classroom, but as he also pointed out, only
to a certain point. Please note that none of this is meant
as a direct attack on Real Teacher, Andrew, or any other
teacher I haven't met or know nothing about.
Michelle also raised the issue of qualifications. She is
correct in saying many people meet the needs of schools and,
by extension, it's really up to an individual school or
chain of schools to set their own policies for hiring.
Peter is also correct for saying that these schools exist
for a reason (by the way, although I've never used Side by
Side in a class, I've looked through the series and
materials are what you make of them...I haven't seen a book
yet that I couldn't glean something useful from). If
schools can survive in the market, then their policies must
work for them. Sorry to sound like a laissez-faire, free
marketeer but, if they're not doing it already, students,
parents, adults, whoever, in Asia better wake up and start
to shop around asking hard questions and demanding precise
answers from the schools they are think of enrolling at. If
Asian students complain about low-quality teaching, well, to
a degree it's their own fault for supporting low-quality
schools. I do realize in some cases there may be very few
choices (although in Japan, Taiwan, and Korea this is
certainly not the case) and I'm directing these comments at
private schools, not public education where students have
much less of a voice in what goes on.
Despite the rather blunt response, Teacher is probably
correct too. I've heard of a few universities in China that
are raising their standards for foreign teachers to Master's
level and above and trying to recruit from more elite
universities abroad. Admittedly this is a drop in the
bucket, but if economies continue to stay depressed and
governments begin taking hard looks at education, people who
lack teaching or other desirable skills might find the going
a lot more difficult in the public sector.
Although Professor Grammar is right for taking Andrew to
task for his baffling comment about British English (sorry
Andrew, as someone with so many qualifications, you should
have been able to see how your sentence construction could
so easily be misconstrued), there is no need to fear for the
survival of his native tongue: come to China where British
English rules and, moreover, British publishers have a
virtual stranglehold on the educational material market.
Without starting another war, this is ironic since most
students I've spoken with really want to learn American
English and often get frustrated when they realize how
different pronunciation and usage can be.
I guess Alan must have some sort of axe to grind; It would
be a shame if he had a bad experience in Asia with some bad
bosses, but, again, teachers should follow the same rules
when shopping for schools as above: ask detailed questions
and get precise answers. I suppose there are unscrupulous
companies everywhere, but, to great degree, a contract does
make the situation a whole lot more transparent. I almost
got sucked into a bad situation while dreaming of high times
in exotic Asia, but stepped back long enough to see the
reality before the proverbial signing on the dotted line.
By questioning Asian educational systems and demanding the
best quality instruction, Rhonda and Dill are certainly well
within their rights. It's tremendously frustrating to work
with students who have learned by rote, have been spoon-fed
information most of their lives, and have been taught that
cramming a huge amount of information in and then
regurgitating it out on various exams equals learning. It's
good to hear that slowly some of these issues are being
addressed by governments and academicians. There's a long
way to go before students get the education all their
efforts deserve and the revolution can't happen soon enough.
Over a period of 8 years I accumulated close to 11,000 clock
hours of English teaching and training experience working
for a private company. I still make mistakes, give crummy
lessons at times, have to look in all sorts of reference
books, and worry about what materials to use and what to
teach when. Now I'm towards the end of my first academic
year teaching in China and trying to help students the best
way I can. My situation is a bit precarious because I don't
have a college degree...I wish I could work in some other
countries but educational requirements for visas generally
preclude it. Am I a Real Teacher or an Unreal Teacher?
Issues like these are never one- or two-dimensional.
Y'know, I had intended to leave it at that---------- but,
hey man, let's have a beer or something if ever we meet up.
You kind of put us all in our places! Very well said.
Teaching is a boring job god knows why you need to be a real
teacher its a good thing I can save some money thanks to all
my students.
Hey! Everyone here has a valid, reasonable angle and it
hardly got unpleasant. Way to go Thorn Tree! This has to be
the nicest string of thoughts I've seen in ages! So why is
it that so many Asians think we teachers are inept losers
who can't hack it in their own country? "Why you foreigners
come my country make money from my country?" goes the cry.
Because your entire society is absolutely falling over
itself to learn ridiculous 'American' idioms, and still uses
them wrong. That's why. The point is usually lost. But then
again, as we've discussed, there are so many teachers out to
fund a stretch in Goa (and dressed like it), that I guess
they did have a point after all.
The teachers in Japan are easy lays esp for the Jap
businessmen
If you want a fuck go get an english teacher/whore
I teach in Japan, and I have never slept with any of the businessmen whom I instruct.
English good teach long time money happy make me. Richard
example english good teacher. studetns know Richard good
teacher. His English more better than mine and I only
teacher in Asia for after five years. I love you
Richard!! Hee hee.
I just wanted to say that I totally agree with Dill, but I
have to
add that the unqualified/uncompetent foreign teachers are
not the only ones to blame. Their bosses are Asians as are
the students and they should be asked why they have hired
someone who cannot do the job properly.
Living in Hong Kong right now I was looking for a Putonghua
course and after ten minutes in an otherwise OK (and very
expensive) language school I was offered the job as English
teacher. They didn't know I am actually trained to teach EFL
neither I told them afterwards. I just left and never joined
their Putonghua course - I just cannot be sure the teacher
is not a passer-by. Losing more clients, they might start
to think about it.
Yes, it is unethical.
How much for your cunt?
Nice to see you again here! So you live in Hong Kong and
you teach English to Asian people! I didn't know it!
I saw you in the South East Asia section, saying that
Aussies are racists (which is by itself a racist assert)!
Don't forget that when you are a teacher, one very
important thing to teach is multiculturalism and tolerance
and etc.
*
Sorry to bother your discussion about teaching English, I
am not a native and I don't want to teach English in Asia
or elsewhere, this is just a private word with Jaana.
Those who can't teach!
Anyways, who's gonna work for peanuts in a hostile
environment?!
Maybe not all people who attend English Language Classes want a 'formal education' from a 'real teacher'. Although a somewhat tenuous comparison, I study French. I will actually move to live in France in the next 2 years so consider myself a serious student. A lot of my fellow students take classes because they want a past-time, like the intellectual challenge, are Francophiles etc etc. Why can Asian students not have the same approcah? No doubt those schools attract serious students but also attract those who approcah their studies as a hobby or past time. One does not have to be a 'real teacher' to give good service and meet the expectations of the students. Also, a lot of language schools are run as businesses and have profit making as their primary gain. Who can blame adventurous young people from taking such an opportunities? Maybe the real villans here are the schools themselves!!
I think the fact that Real Teacher made her/himself scarce
after posting this speaks for itself. Wind-up.
.. as for my looks ... it's not a thought foremost in my
mind.
Too busy being concerned on other people's behalf, no doubt.
Incidentally, I hope you don't teach your students that
using quadruple exclamation marks is good style. Was that
part of your TEFL course?
Couldn't think of anything more constructive, hey?
I was unaware that being constructive was your intention
when you started this branch.
Apart from a stint working at a British holiday camp,
Mike Rowse admits he has no hands-on experience of
the tourism industry.
The civil servant, 50, came to Hong Kong in 1972 and
worked as an English teacher and journalist.
He joined the Independent Commission Against Corruption in
1974 and worked in Operations and Corruption Prevention
Departments until 1980, when he became an administrative
officer.
His other posts include deputy information co-ordinator,
principal assistant secretary for the treasury and deputy
secretary for the treasury. In January 1997, he was
appointed director of the Business and Services
Promotion Unit at the Financial Secretary's Office. In
that job he was involved in studies relating to tourism,
including a survey on whether there was a need for
another Convention and Exhibition Centre.
But his main task in recent months has been to attract
Walt Disney to the SAR and he will take that with him
to the position as Commissioner for Tourism.
Last year Mr Rowse married Fanny Wong Lai-kwan, a
former political editor of the South China Morning Post.
She now works in the Community Relations Department
of the ICAC.
The couple have a baby daughter. Mr Rowse also has
two sons from a previous marriage.
He is a keen stamp collector and a Manchester United fan.
I am sorry, but has anyone here ever worked for HESS. The
MacDonald's of English schools. If they paid a better
salary, maybe then they would attract better qualified
teachers. If Joe Chui could teach monkeys to teach
English, he would scrap all the foreigners...more money for
himself.
Now, I work for a small school that offers a very high
monthly salary, but you must have a strong educational
background, experience in Asia and participate in
organizing class materials, as well as prepare class
outlines in advance for review.
The moral.....most Asian bosses don't want a "super-
teacher", because they can make more money by hiring young
people with basic qualifications. And they also tend to
"rip-off" the Chinese teachers that work in the company. I
am not a missionary of the English language; if I wasn't
making good money I would "run screaming from
Taipei"...Thank you very much.