Just got back from an eight month trip in which I and my
woman-friend bought a car and travelled all over North
America. As much as we enjoy nature, we're city lovers who
are contemplating a move to North America in the near
future. So this trip was part fun, part serious
investigation.
The results? Mexico City is the most intriguing city on
the continent - there is an intense sadness there, you feel
it the minute you walk out of the arrival lounge of the
airport. New York could never live up to the hype - we
weren't surprised at our disappointment with the place -
perhaps being Londoners, we have more literary expectations
than can be satisfied by belligerent heroin addicts in the
park in Greenwich Village. We'll give Boston a positive
nod, though. Yes, on the East Coast Boston seems the most
cosmopolitan, although at the same time it's disturbingly
segregated.
Chicago seemed to want to hold us, but then we realized it
was only its skyscrapers that were entreating us. After a
few days the boorishness of its citizens' "midwestern
charm" became overwhelming. And while staring up at Frank
Lloyd Wright masterpieces is nourishing, one wishes there
were more to see at ground level. How do they live in
those ubiquitous four-floor walkups?
San Francisco is far too self-conscious in its attempt to
appear European, and that spoiled it for us. For every
hipster in a cafe in North Beach there are ten "49ers fans"
driving pickup trucks around the block. Perhaps when
compared to the rest of America this city has a European
feel, but then that's going to the lowest denominator. We
felt like asking people there, "Why don't you just pack up
and move to Europe, instead of sitting in San Francisco
pretending you are?" A bit like playing American football
at a park in London - doesn't fit, does it?
Forget Los Angeles. Forget Seattle (what a waste of gas -
do Americans really believe that Seattle has a music scene
capable of producing more than Pearl Jam grunge-ofied rip-
offs?) Forget Austin too (another waste of gas - a liberal
oasis in a sea of "cracker" culture is, again, going to the
lowest denominator).
We came to the conclusion that the only bearable city in
North America is Toronto. Very cosmopolitan, very quirky,
with some of the reserve you find among Canadians (a
delight after American boorishness), yet as the world's
most ethnically diverse city the neighbourhoods are
distinct and charming. Only New York touches Toronto for
breadth and variety of ethnic groups in one city (You know
a Londoner is being honest when he admits of this - we have
our own conceits to being one of the world's grandest
ethnic stews) Architecturally, Toronto relies a little too
much on Victorian brick "row housing", and its yearning to
have a financial district full of gleaming glass towers is
suspect, but that can be forgiven. What really impressed
us about Toronto was the amount of cultural activity
happening, especially musically in the clubs along Queen
Street and also along Bloor Street. While no city in the
world can touch London for live music, Toronto is
astounding for its variety and quality, and I would rate it
second to London if only for those two reasons - obviously
New York is bigger, so it surpasses Toronto in quantity
(but not London, of course). The theatre as well seems to
be flourishing - we read that Toronto now has the world's
third most active theatre life, after London and New York.
Quite impressive for a city of only 3 or 4 million all told.
Is this a love letter? No, merely an appreciation of what
urban North America has to offer. If it ever came to the
day that I and my woman-friend were to move to that
continent, I believe we know which city would be the most
attractive to us.
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Thank you. Now do fuck off, you pedantic little git.
Evan,
I won't take up much space, but I simply wanted to say
thanks for the kind words. I am living in Europe now, but
I am from Toronto. I am really pleased to hear that you
really enjoyed the city. I miss the cultural diversity, it
is something which Toronto should be proud of, something it
can show the world. People of different believes and
background can live and work together peacefully. But you
are correct in saying that is it the second best in the
world. London is obviously No.1.
Thanks again.
in the winter time? Try driving or flying into Tronno
between the end of January to mid February. If there is the
usual blizzard and temperatures hovering around -30
celcius, I am sure you and your woman friend would opt for
Mexico city. Toronto in the winter is a mass of boring, ice
cold concrete during the longest season of the year that
lasts 8 long months.
To Walt:
We were in Toronto for all of January and much of
February. The weather, while certainly colder than London,
was the same as in New York, and not as cold as Chicago.
It never fails to amaze me how ignorant Americans are of
the geography of their own backyard! Fully 3/5 of your
country's population live in the same climate as Southern
Ontario.
New York is the best city in the world, it's the most
happening place on the planet. If it ain't here, it don't
exist. We got Broadway, we got Jerry Seinfeld in the Upper
West Side, we got Brooklyn, we got St. Mark's Place and the
CBGB for underground music, and we got all the best writers
in the world.
You can take your London and Toronto and go on pretending,
but you aren't fooling anybody.
Evan, please forgive the belligerence of the New Yorkers on
this website - they're just as obnoxious on-line as they
are in person. Toronto has 80% of what makes New York
great, and only 20% of what makes it bad. I'll take those
odds any day.
What a wonderful recapitulation of your trip...beautifully
written and a very fair analysis of these cities, imho.
Yes - we Midwesterners do have our earthy charms
*laughing*...and we get mightily bored with ourselves too,
believe you me. Stoicism is fine for a while, but after
half a lifetime it just tips over into repression. We mean
well, though. :)
Thank you for posting this great review - let's hope the LP
staff takes note (folks?) and archives it!
Best regards.
Evan, it seems a little arrogant to say that Toronto is "the
only bearable city in North America" when you certainly
didn't see all of them, especially since you said you had
spent almost two of your eight months in Toronto. What
about Miami, Vancouver, MontrΘal, Atlanta, Washington and a
host of others ? What's more, I don't see how spreading
your remaining time in seven other cities, a few weeks each,
would give you a clear picture. You should at least spend
two seasons (if not a full year) in a place before you claim
such expert knowledge. Or were you charmed by the fact that
Toronto is one of the most royalty/Queen-loving towns in the
Commonwealth ? They serve afternoon tea in Victoria BC too,
you know ;- )
Lovely post. Now Francois, if Evan found BOSTON
disturbingly segregated, why do you think he would give a
thumbs up to places like DC or Atlanta or Miami? I really
doubt he or anybody would find any of those cities to be
more liveable than TO, because they simply aren't. And the
option of living in one of their gated, monocultural
suburbs doesn't sound like his cuppa tea either.
Vancouver's great but his interest is a mjor city and Van
ain't major. Montreal? Nice place to visit but what
anglophone would even consider *living* there? I think that
Evan's urban tour of North America is perfectly
appropriate-- he visited the only cities that could
possibly vie for world-clas status and discovered, like any
observant observer would, that Toronto is the most liveable
major city in North America. Live with it.
I have no problem with your opinion that Toronto is the best
city in North America or even the world. Fact is, each
major city has people who say the same for their neck of the
woods, and your attitude is no different - live with that !
Thanks for that "anglos won't live in MontrΘal" barb, it's
really cute. FYI a large number of anglophones here live
their entire lives without speaking a word of french, since
MontrΘal is a far more bilingual city than Toronto, and IMHO
even more ethnically diverse.
*
My argument is that getting to know and evaluate a city is
way more demanding time-wise than taking a 3-4 week vacation
there like Evan did. You can't rank things like atmosphere,
cultural festivals or seasonal events in 3 weeks, forget it.
Besides, choosing a place to live is as subjective as the
tastes of the person making the choice: some will find Miami
to their liking, some will prefer Boston. There are no
universal criteria except some very unemotional data on cost
of living, crime rate, etc... The rest is up to each of us,
even if our friend Evan proposes that his preferences be
accepted as gospel. As I said, a bit arrogant.
For the last time, America is our place not yours. We don't
give a damn if our cities appeal to your fish and chip
eating palate or not. 50 years after the world stopped
giving a damn about what Britain thinks, you still walk
around like the sun never sets on your empire.
Please move to Toronto. Just what Eastern Canada needs:
another self congratulatory wind bag.
Well, I agree with Francois on one point and disagree with him on another. First of all, yes, there is no quantitative means to determine what makes a city good or bad. It is all personal taste. I live in Toronto and think it's a great city, but I also spent a few years in Winnipeg and actually would rather live there. Not many people would pick Winnipeg as the "best city" in North America, but it was good fit with my personal tastes; relatively small, very friendly, and with just enough going on in the city to keep me interested. Different strokes for different folks. I've met people from Hamilton that would never live anywhere else!! Makes no sense to me but it does to them. Fine. So, of the places in North America that Evan (original poster) has been, Toronto was the best fit for his personal tastes. What's the big deal?
... is the point. He's expressing his opinion, but trying
to appear objective at the same time.
If he was only expressing his personal tastes, then he
could go live in Toledo Ohio and be happy. But he's trying
to speak for lots of people, and be urbane.
If that's the case, then New York's still the place. It's
got everything. You can't deny it.
Toronto left me feeling enervated. Boston left me feeling
cold, uncomfortable, weary of blacks on the subway and on
some of the streets. I spent much of my time in Boston
looking over my shoulder.
But Toronto has very little to be afraid of, and much to
enjoy. It truly does have the most varied ethnic makeup of
any city in the world. During one week I ate a different
culture's food for every meal of every day. And I didn't
have to go very far to do it (stayed around Kensington
Market, Spadina, College).
I think we English are too reticent, while you Canadians
have just the right amount of reserve.
If you love a mass of wasps (white anglo-saxon protestants)
who are afraid to admit that they're being suffocated by
the immigrants (but admit it amongst themselves), then go
to toronto. toronto has the most immigrants of any city in
the world, but so what if the wasps keep control and
relegate the afro-canadians to jane and finch?
the world is a big place, this lonely planet site is
supposed to be opening up your eyes... you should be
wanting to get AWAY from toronto, to see the places that
the immigrants came from.
Uh, sorry. I nodded off. Can you repeat that?
Let me add my voice to those praising Toronto. I have been
chained, by my job, to the city of St. Louis Missouri for
the last five years. For any urban American being
consigned to St. Louis is a harsh enough fate; for this
Londoner it's been, erm... pure hell. Not that the people
aren't friendly, but then Goofy the Walt Disney dog is
friendly too - now and then one needs some intellectual and
artistic stimulation that go beyond scarfing Budweiser beer
at the cookout.
I was lucky enough to attend a convention in Toronto this
past winter, and was immediately charmed by the people and
the city. I agree with Evan that the Victorian row houses
do get a bit monotonous, but then I find that much
preferable to mid-western clapboard. Nevertheless, I felt
as if London had dressed up in American clothes, yet still
remained British enough to be bearable. Excellent theatre,
music, and literary prospects are to be enjoyed in Toronto
as well. And, I've never eaten so well in North America as
I have in Toronto, although nothing, in my mind, will ever
surpass the curry take-away in London.
Needless to say I've put in for a transfer to Toronto, but
will have to wait for a few months to see if it comes
through. Ahhh... it will be good to come up for air and
breathe freely of things cosmopolitan again. The Midwest
can be so stifling!
T.O. has got everything New York has, except for the worst
parts of the Bronx. But really, who needs the Bronx and
the dismal celebration of mediocrity that people there are
doing with their art and retrospectives at politically
correct galleries?
The world comes to Toronto, and we welcome it. Hey, I'm a
wasp... but damned if I want to live in a lily-white city,
or an american style city where there are lots of whites, a
minority of blacks, and 0.001% of other ethnic groups
(yeah, I've been to St. Louis once... ONCE!)
Forty years ago my father ate fish and chips in Kensington
Market. Today, within a three or four block stretch you've
got the whole world's culinary treasures waiting to be
sampled.
Where else in the world do you get this? I've been all
over Asia and Europe, and I still haven't found a place as
ethnically diverse as Toronto. Where, I ask?
grrl#16, who ever told anybody to live at jane and finch?! walt#3, are you aware that a temperature of -30 has happened once in the past twenty years?! francois, how can you give an opinion that montreal is MORE ethnically diverse, keeping in mind that it made headlines last week that for the first time in history a black judge was appointed in quebec? even ex-montrealers like myself are realizing that the place is WAY behind the times. the only ethnicities you care about are frog and bloke. (anyone outside the immediate area will not understand the last sentence but don't worry about it.) oui, je t'invite a continuer la conversation en francais si tu veux.
You know it MUST be good
The CN Tower is penis worship gone haywire, and adds
nothing at all to Toronto save for making the skyline look
like something out of the Jetsons. Better to chat up the
neighborhoods - that's what makes Toronto distinctive.
Call me an ignorant American, but I don't see what all the
fuss is about. No, I haven't been to Toronto. And no, I
don't want to go. I'm happily settled down here in Western
Pennsylvania, thank you very much. What do you have that
the States hasn't got?
Evan: you should have come to Pittsburgh. The world's
best kept secret. It isn't just steel anymore.
#7 Gangwarily: I guess you don't mind foreigners stomping
all over Uncle Sam. Midwesterners are the friendliest,
most truthworthy people in the world.
#11 ee: You said it all. This is OUR country! It's the
best in the world!
#15 Geofrey: Canadians may be reserved, but we've got the
largest standing reserve unit in the world, bar none.
#18 Kant: Go back to England if you don't like St. Louis.
Cause if you don't like St. Louis, you ain't much. My
sister happens to live there, and everytime I go there I
think it's cool. Go back to England. This is our country.
#19 Hogtown hank: where else can you get what? What? What
the hell are you talking about?!?! Weird food? Cause if
you're talking about liberty, freedom, and justice for all,
you're talking about the best damn country in the world,
the grand ole U. S. of A.!!!
... until you're dead, Thurmond. Then, allow those of us
with a more refined outlook to continue living. Would that
be too much to ask?
We'll call you an ignorant American.
Listen, I've never been to Toronto, but I sure as hell have
been to London. Evan, stay in London already. I know it's
crowded, traffic's lousy, and you pay a thousand pounds a
month for a shoebox-sized apartment, but that place is
happening. It's the center of European finance, if nothing
else. And I hate to use the "R" word, but it's a damn
sight more refined than New York will ever be.
If you could get me a job there I'd be back in a minute.
I exagerrated a bit then. The temperature in Toronto gets
down to minus 29 celcius and with the wind chill factor
coming off of the frozen banks of Lake Ontario, it feels
like bloody minus 30, 40, 50 or 60. Even minus 10 for a few
weeks is pretty tough to take. Its awful having to drive a
car coated in frozen mud and salt for half a year because
its too damn cold to wash the car. In my first winter in
Toronto, I couldn't get the car door open cause it and the
lock was frozen shut. Had to use a friend's hair blow dryer
on two extension cords to get it open. Terrible to have to
put on 40lbs of clothing just to walk the two or three
blocks to get my favorite ethnic take-out food. Alot of
Torontonians cocoon throughout those long winter months and
sink into a lifestyle of lethargy and self preservation.
WASPS sitting around eating Jamaican pasties, pizza by the
slice (99cents), almond chicken guy ding in black bean
sauce, etc., while complaining about immigrants. Come
spring, they all have the same look; slightly pink,
overweight and arrogant.
Take off to the Carribean for the winter months and Toronto
gets to feel like one of the greatest cities on earth.
Finally... Evan, you had made the biggest mistake you could
have by assuming that I (a Canadian) was an American.
Please be more careful. Many of us have a bit of Canadian
pride-even if we hate winters in Toronto.
Cheers!
Walt
... the point. While I admit I may have been hasty in
assigning you an American nationality, you might be
generous and admit that, looked at through my eyes, your
post could have easily been written by an American. No?
About the cold, then - your description of Toronto in
winter applies to 3/5 of the American population living in
the northern states. In my comparison of the most
interesting cities in North America, only Mexico City and
San Francisco don't experience the same winters Toronto
does. New York, Chicago, Minneapolis and Boston have the
same climate (for that matter, my friend in Minneapolis
claims that temperatures there regularly drop to -40 C,
while another friend in Toronto swears that it almost never
gets below -10 C -- is she wrong?)
We did feel cold in Toronto, but there were also a few days
that were extremly pleasant - romantic even, with the tufts
of white snow drifting around Hyde Park.
Your gregarious self-deprecation seems almost a bit too
Canadian, if I may say so. Were I to be lauding the merits
of Philadelphia (horrors) or Atlanta (even worse), the
residents of those cities would have been patting
themselves on the backs to no end. Then again, we have now
discovered first-hand that this lack of arrogance is indeed
one of your country's charms.
it sucks really bad.
...to each his own ! I'll clarify my point one last time,
for the sake of arguing (which I love so much): I have
nothing against Toronto and indeed I think it's a great
city, even if it's not MY favorite. I'm just irritated by
Evan's attitude and lopsided evaluation methods - you might
say I'm arguing the format instead of the contents. My main
beef is probably with the way Evan passes off his taste in
cities as an official announcement, but I applaud devotion
to a city, especially one not his own to begin with.
*
mikey (#20), there's no need for me to test your french or
use it to communicate in here, that would be a bit rude. I
don't calculate some sort of "ethicity factor" by the number
of black judges, it's more a feel than anything and I can't
support it with reliable stats. I get the impression that
MontrΘal has a more integrated ethnic background as opposed
to the neatly divided 'hoods of Toronto, but that could just
as easily be related to city size or the fact that I've
never lived there. Like I wrote, it's an opinion. If you
feel like starting some sort of discussion on the subject
of MontrΘal's "behind the times" status, create a thread and
I'll show up ;- )
It's too funny. Toronto is a nice place but this fawning
by several Canadians over being patted on the head by a
twenty-something sophomoric English cunt who talks in
adolescent speak of "music-scenes" and ridiculous self-
important generalizations is downright puke-making.
Good lord, I could think of thousands of ways to describe
Mexico City but sad is never one of them! Did you do
anything there or just flew in and left? It has one of the
world's best archeological museums, one of the most awesome
parks, Xochomilco-the floating gardens, a huge ruin with
more being uncovered all the time, one of the hugest plazas
in the world, etc., etc., etc.! Unfortunately I was not
there long enough because the pollution and altitude
bothered me quite a bit but I will go back again and again.
It's nice to know you won't be there making it seem sad. I
think you are a sad Brit. A true traveller sees beauty
everywhere, you are a TOURIST and therefor not permitted to
post on Lonely Planet ever again. Adios!
are not exactly the best way to appreciate any city.
Certainly the literary pretentions of our cultivated Brit
friend here do not include Malcom Lowry, Antonin Artaud,
Surrealists such as Breton and some filmakers such as
Eisenstein, Bu±uel even Scouce Alex Cox.
This is the kind of Brit that make people think Brits are
pretentious cunts.
Fuck!
By Jove! Egad! Went to Mexico City, you know. Wretched. Poor
blighters have a single emotion among 'em. Doubtless the
beans. Blimey!
-
Tried New York; what you'd expect. Putting on airs about
being the financial capital of the world. Really! Don't
they know that measure of success went out years ago?
-
Boston, though. More beans, but a bit of all right. Homey.
Cold. Gray. Episcopaleans and Irish. Very Cosmopolitan.
Could do with a bit more fog, though.
-
Chicago, now. Something there. Big shoulders, what? Too big,
really. And everything so bloody MEATY! Hard on the teeth,
don't you know.
-
And San Francisco! Full of Italians acting Italian, and the
like, and yet 49ers T-Shirts! I ask you! Did they hope to
take us in with such a flimsy ruse? Those blighters in
Silicon Valley pretending to be European, and living in the
past.
-
There are other cities, too, you know, but why go on? In all
of them, it was the same. We did our best to enlighten them,
but I fear they were too boorish.
-
But Cheerio! What hey! Yoiks! Toronto! Ah, Toronto. They
love the Queen Mum there, you know. They all wish they were
back in England, so they do the next-best thing, and suck up
handsomely to an important representative of the superior
ways of the Old Country like myself.
-
Makes me a bit dewy just thinking about going back to where
the colonials know how to value a British gentleman at his
true worth. Truly, we won't be giving those bloody Yanks any
more opportunities to call us pretentious little lightweight
fops. Sniff.
#31 Impressed: I don't know how you came up with your
reference to my "patting" Canadians on the head -- in this
day and age "twenty-something sophomoric English cunts" are
already two generations removed from the wistful arrogance
of empires declined. You read "self-important
generalizations" into my complete sentences and non-
American syntax. This never fails to amuse English people,
who are so often confronted by Americans intent on "dumbing
down" the language while at the same time being completely
oblivious to the xenophobic and imperialist nature of their
distaste for other varieties of English -- the very problem
we English used to have. Funny how the tables turn.
#34 Karlo: I'm flattered! How did you know that we
English love to hear Americans imitate our peculiar accents
and speech patterns? Really top-notch. Well done.
Funny how when the English write an appreciation of
anything American, the Yanks take it as a matter of
course. But when, the horror! - an English person
expresses a preference for something Canadian over
something American, they find it so unbelievable that their
only recourse is to bewildered sarcasm. Karlo lampoons
English self-importance, but doesn't realize that the
parody has no bite, because English travellers under the
age of 30 don't show any of the self-importance that many
(not all) Americans do.
And Karlo doesn't realize just how imperialistic his parody
is - ironic when you consider that he's making fun of the
imperial attitude of a bygone era!
What the heck is this long thread going on for anyway? Why
are you all getting upset over Toronto? I mean, for
Christ's sake... what are so many people getting riled up
about Canada for?
Besides, this is the American part of Lonely Planet, for
people who want to come to the U.S.A.
Get on topic!!
... just get along? I'm American, but I consider myself a
citizen of the world. We are all brothers and sisters,
when you get down to it.
Sensitive to the kind of crap I see on display here. An
American would never have written the kind of crap that the
English jerkoff did.
... just move along? You're American, but you consider
yourself a citizen of the world. You are all brothers and
sisters, when you get down to it.
Well, Evan and Canadian bystander, you poor watercressed
souls, the true irony is that your assumption of my
Americanism overlooks my basic Canadian nationality. I'm not
lampooning the Brit imperial attitudes of a bygone era, I'm
lampooning Evan's present condescending atitudes of last
Monday. He's the sort of sad fop who would wilt if uprooted
from Limey or pseudo-Limey soil. The self-parodying anxious
lapdog desire of the all of the Torontonians posting to lick
Evan's kindly English hand shows me that Travel Grrl has it
pretty right about the place, although BCBoy might be overly
harsh.
-
I also have a preference for things Canadian, but some
compliments are best left untaken. I've met any number of
very fine Englishpersons of all ages who don't write the
sort of sweepingly superior judgmental claptrap that Evan is
foisting off here. A compliment to Canada from a dip like
Evan is sort of like a compliment on your wardrobe from Don
Cherry or Peewee Herman; accepting the compliment shows
more about your own bad taste than your mutual grandeur.
-
But tell me, Canadian observer, do the Brits all become
imperialistic on their 31'st birthday, or did some change
come about so that those born after 1970? And how do you
know that Evan isn't over 30? While I was expressing my
sardonic amusement at Evan's personal vaporings, you seem
desperate to turn thing nationalistic. You aren't waving the
Maple Leaf when you glorify T-O, buddy, just the town flag.
It's a big country.
You wrote "Besides, this is the American part of Lonely
Planet, for people who want to come to the U.S.A."
Whaaaaaaat ? Duh ? Please tell me you don't confuse "North
America" with "USA property" ! Or is this a dum troll and
you're perfectly aware this topic is in the NORTH AMERICA
(as in US/Canada/Mexico) branch ?
Being from Toronto, I've been following this debate with
interest. Aside from the invariable American sludge in
posts #31 and #34, and some of the other toss-off messages,
the one post that stands out is #33.
-
Carlos said: "Airport lounges... are not exactly the best
way to appreciate any city."
-
This is a valid point, although it has nothing to do with
what Evan said. He said you start to feel the sadness as
soon as you get to the arrival lounge, implying that it
continues for the rest of your stay in el D.F. Which is
absolutely true, and raises the question of whether debi in
#32 was actually in the same Mexico City I went to.
Anytime you have 10 million destitute people living in
shanty towns surrounding another 10 million people living
just one slight step beyond utter poverty, surrounding 4
1/2 million people in the lower echelons of Mexico's
working class, surrounding some 1/2 million economically
comfortable to rich people, you've got a recipe for a sad,
sad city. Add a history made up of Spanish subjugation, of
war-time defeats, invasions, a huge loss of territory to
the enemy to the north, extreme class tension and conflict,
an unfinished revolution which started in the 1910's with
Zapato and STILL hasn't resulted in a fair distribution of
land, and then take a walk through the streets of Mexico.
Even better, take a ride on the metro.
-
When you've done that, immediately go to the capital city
of virtually any other country in the world outside of
South America and Africa, and then tell me you didn't feel
a sense of sadness in Mexico City in comparison with other
cities.
-
Carlos, you'll have to explain what the aitch you meant
when you said:
"Certainly the literary pretentions of our cultivated Brit
friend here do not include Malcom Lowry, Antonin Artaud,
Surrealists such as Breton and some filmakers such as
Eisenstein, Bu±uel even Scouce Alex Cox. This is the kind
of Brit that make people think Brits are pretentious cunts"
-
You've piqued my curiosity with your references, but I
don't quite see what you're driving at. Could you explain
further?
You said:
"I'm lampooning Evan's present condescending attitudes of
last Monday. He's the sort of sad fop who would wilt if
uprooted from Limey or pseudo-Limey soil."
Granted, re-reading Evan's original post, he did use the
term "boorish" twice, which is two too many times in my
book. Although, dammit if I can't help but agree with
him. He makes these grand generalizations about cities
based on fleeting impressions, yet they all corroborate
with my own impressions of those cities. Maybe one
person's charm is another person's boorishness? As for
your characterization of him wilting "if uprooted from
Limey or pseudo-Limey soil", that's vacuous venom that only
serves to make people wonder what inspires you to write it.
-
"The self-parodying anxious lapdog desire of the all of the
Torontonians posting to lick Evan's kindly English hand
shows me that Travel Grrl has it pretty right about the
place..."
Again, none of the other Canadians exhibit even the least
bit of "anxious lapdog desire", save for post #2, although
even that post was more a straightforward expression of
appreciation for the appreciation. You're reading a
"fawning" posture into posts that just don't have it, which
only leads to speculation on the nature of your own
insecurities.
And another thing - I live in Toronto, and I don't know
where the hell you and Travel Grrl are getting this
colonial subject mentality from! Granted, this city does
seem to be the conduit through which a lot of British music
makes its appearance on the North American scene (to use
the music example), but the Anglo connection is stronger in
Victoria B.C. (get it? it's even CALLED Victoria) than in
Toronto.
-
"I also have a preference for things Canadian, but some
compliments are best left untaken. I've met any number of
very fine Englishpersons of all ages who don't write the
sort of sweepingly superior judgmental claptrap that Evan
is foisting off here. A compliment to Canada from a dip
like Evan is sort of like a compliment on your wardrobe
from Don Cherry or Peewee Herman; accepting the compliment
shows more about your own bad taste than your mutual
grandeur."
This is a wonderfully expressive paragraph, so well written
that I wanted to be swayed by it. Mostly because it's
true. Problem is, it's not true about the postings on this
thread, and so your rhetorical straw man is still standing
in the other corner, waiting for you to stop punching air.
Having said that, during my three years in London (during
which I, at times, missed Toronto a lot -- ooops, shouldn't
have said that!) I came to the realization that a lot of
English people sound arrogant to the North American ear
because they use a larger vocabulary than we do. Even the
stall owners on Electric Avenue in Brixton (most of whom
aren't Caribbean, though - poor example) sound like
university professors compared to mechanics in Mississauga.
-
"But tell me, Canadian observer, do the Brits all become
imperialistic on their 31'st birthday, or did some change
come about so that those born after 1970?"
It was a figure tossed out of thin air, gimme a break.
"And how do you know that Evan isn't over 30?"
Didn't he imply as much? See post #35.
"While I was expressing my sardonic amusement at Evan's
personal vaporings, you seem desperate to turn thing
nationalistic."
You got me there. I assumed you were American. Which was
off base, actually, because aside from the nut-bar named
Thurmond, your average American wouldn't have read past the
title "Toronto's the place", so I should have assumed that
you were Canadian.
-
"You aren't waving the Maple Leaf when you glorify T-O,
buddy, just the town flag. It's a big country."
Point well taken, when in a discussion with a group of
Canadians. Although in the context of Americans griping
about things Canadian, perhaps not.
For corroboration of the condescending Brit attitude that
oozes out of evan's post, may I refer you to Kant's cant,
Canto 18, on his visit to TO: "I felt that London had
dressed up in American clothes, yet still remained British
enough to remain bearable." If my lampoon fails, it's
because there's no way short of saying it with Kantian
conviction to really convey that provincialism disguised as
cosmopolitanism. The vast majority of Brits aren't that way
at all, but these two are.
-
A lot of people above thought this was a troll. The sad part
is, it wasn't meant to be. The sadder part is seeing fellow
Canadians acting like fawning colonials. I don't have
problems with people speaking advanced English; I have a
degree in English Lit. I only object when the words spoken
are ludicrous.
England holds no mysteries for me, syntactical or otherwise.
I was born and raised there by English parents. Matter of
fact I have an elder brother who went to Sandhurst and was
a member of Her Majesty's Horse Guards and I drink lots of
tea so I am an authentic anglophile. My problem with you
is that you don't represent England very well coming across
as a stereotypical silly snob.
Where do you live? I will guess it isn't Toronto.
.
The hatred that non-Torontonian Canucks feel and express
towards Toronto is even stronger than American's jingoism.
If you did live in TO, you would know that Anglophilia is
pretty thin on the ground here.
.
I'm an American who emigrated here a couple of years ago,
and I don't see any of the pandering to England that you
are so strident about. I do see a lot of proud citizens who
are pleased to get the affirmation that Evan provides. And
a lot of those citizens- perhaps the majority, the really
committed Toronto boosters- are, like me, immigrants. They
aren't "fawning colonials"; they have seen the horrendous
conditions in other cities and love what Toronto offers.
They often have no connection with or orientation
whatsoever toward England.
I'm a Western Canadian, but I don't dislike Toronto. It's a
fine city. I'm glad you've found a place to embrace and
boost. There's no crusader like a convert, they say, and if
evan's little spiel brings out the blush in you or the TO
Chamber of Commerce, I'm glad for the lot of you.
-
I'm not responding to this post out of hatred for Toronto,
it's the pomp and smarminess of evan in the original and
Kant,Torontonian and Canadian bystander in sycophantic
support that are ludicrous. My reading of walt, francois,
western man, travel grrrl, carlos, impressed, etc. is that
they were moved by emotions similar to mine.
-
I don't dislike the British, either. Some of my best friends
are limeys. But "Impressed" in post #46 condemns eloquently
and succinctly the type of Britishness that rankles even a
born anglophile, and that evan represents. If you're finding
the United Empire Loyalist types thin on the ground in
Toronto these days, great. Like marmite, they're best spread
extremely thin, or left off altogether. You can be certain,
though, that even in an attenuated state, they disapprove of
you, my formerly-boorish lad.
I've met UEL types and have had some nice conversations
with them- when they gather how utterly anti-American I am
they soften right up.
.
Toronto is just not an "English" city. It is the kind of
place that could only exist in Canada... well, Canada or
Australia.
I'm a little shocked that I've provoked so much response to
my appreciation for Toronto. Thanks, Canadian Observer,
for coming to my defense. And even more, thank you for
pointing out that too much use of the term "boorish"
doesn't sit well with people on the receiving end. That
you mentioned that I probably don't sound so snobbish in
person as I have in this Thorn Tree was a very astute
comment, and hopefully true.
I feel compelled to reply to "Impressed", who wasnt very.
I never said that I wanted to represent England - good
gawd, is every American who writes into this Thorn Tree a
representative of the U.S. then? If that's the case, I'm
surprised that anybody dares go there! I'm more for
democratic representation. Round up all the Brit posts and
glean a sort of consensual ethos, and make that the
representative. This isn't a parliament, just an opinion
page.
I still can't help but think how uniquely Canadian this
whole debate is - refreshing, really. I you'd taken my
post and changed the cities about, perhaps inserting
Chicago for Toronto, what would the response have been?
Thirty Chicago residents yelping "yee-hah!", two or three
admitting "it ain't that great, really", one or two Brits
calling me a bad representative for anglophiles everywhere,
and perhaps one person protesting that there is a better
city over to the east.
Called Toronto.
It might have been me.
could you give us a sample of the spiel you'd use to impress
a UEL type? Because last time I rode the Main St. bus in
Vancouver, I was behind two of the chaps, and as the third
of three Caucasians on a bus full of Chinese-Canadians, I
was at a loss for words.
-
They were saying, loudly, "Just look at these people. Forty
years ago, you didn't have to rub elbows with this lot. Now,
just look! Damned immigration! And they breed like rabbits!"
Etc.
-
I wish I'd had your help, because I couldn't think of a
thing to say, except, "You gentlemen are living in the past,
and it's only the grace and politeness of these people that
keeps you healthy in the present. I suggest you think what
you're saying." For which I was roundly cursed.
-
If I'd had some ready anti-Americanisms, I'm sure we'd have
gotten on fine. Like maybe I could have said, "Hear,hear!
Victoria now, pip of a town. It's as though London had
dressed up in American clothes, but remained British enough
to remain bearable. None of this lot. Rule Britannia, what?"
-
No, never mind. I'm glad I said what I did. By the way,
frege were you struck blind on the road to Toronto?
Hey Carlos, what were you talking about back in 33? Please
explain!
Is this still going on? This many messages about a second-
rate city like Toronto?
Get a life already! There's only one city in the world
that is OF the world, and that's the grand-daddy of them
all, the BIG APPLE.
Always insist on the best.
the ugliest city on the planet
I was in London (Ontario) last Canada Day and there was a
UEL-sponsored event at the Armory there. I got to talking
with a woman at one of the tables passing out UEL info and
we had a conversation about how Canada should sue the US
for loss of loayalists' property after the Revolutionary
War (you remember, after Helms-Burton and the US right-wing
tirades about canuck investment in Cuba) and I also
reflected on the paltry teachings I had in school about the
War of 1812. It was a pleasant conversation but one in
which I iterated my great preference for living in Canada,
so there was certainly no animosity from her about my being
American. Discussions, good or bad, about immigrants,
immigration, Chinese breeding practices, or anything else
in your non-sequiter of a post weren't included.
.
Why do you ask if I was "struck blind" on the road to
Toronto? Given the irrelevant nature of your last post I
must ask in response if you suffered a neurological event
of your own as you wrote it.
.
If you want to complain about racism in BC perhaps you
should start a new thread-- FWIW one of my students is from
Vancouver and is Chinese (I teach sociology at Ryerson) and
he said, in a presentation on racism in Vancouver and
Toronto, that he is shocked at the level of acceptance he
feels in Toronto. And as an American who was seen, and
indeed lived in, the worst of America (I grew up outside
Gary Indiana), the multiculturalism and the ethnic and
racial mingling and (relative, of course) PEACE astounds me
here.
The "blind on the road" reference is to St. Paul, a fervid
persecutor of Christians who was miraculously struck blind
on the road to Damascus, miraculously healed on arrival, and
as a result, became the most fanatical of proselytizers for
his new outlook. I detected some of the same fervor in your
post; possibly it was your self-identification with the
"really committed Toronto boosters".
-
As to the nice little UEL lady, you must have spoken to her
at the height of their smug little "we'll show you what
hypocrites the Americans are over Helms-Burton" phase. That
ended quickly when their lawsuit to recover damages for
United Empire Loyalists (Tories, to Americans) from the
American Revolution revealed that compensation had been paid
by the US government at the time. Since this made claims by
Cuban nationals whose property was expropriated by Castro
look extremely justified, the UEL's were forced to fall back
on their ever-so-current 1812 gloats. You might have missed
it; for some reason, the CBC boosted the suit bigtime, but
the egg-on-the-face outcome came out as a whisper.
-
From your earlier posts, I had assumed that "some" UEL types
that you'd impressed meant "more than one lady whose
misinformation you concurred with". I also assumed that your
anti-American statements to ingratiate yourself were more
current than 1812.
-
What makes my tale of the unreconstructed imperialists in
Chinatown sequential is the point that you can endear
yourself to them by being anti-anything-nonAnglo, if you're
willing to sell cheaply enough. If you just bought into one
nice lady's good graces by pointing out that you prefer
Canada, bravo. Kind of a weak interpretation of your
original suggestion that you found your way into "their"
good graces by being "utterly anti-American", though. You
can see how a guy might be misled.
Well, thank you for that explanation Karlo. I'm a little
remiss on my St Paul biography (imagine that!) so I didn't
catch your reference. And goodness what a lovely example
you are as a real stickler for detail- I recount a
coversation with a UEL member and you scour my previous
post- "Eureka! He wrote 'their,' not 'her,' so I'll
castigate him for this." Bravo. I am sure this manner of
"winning" an argument gives you that sense of satisfaction
that you doubtless carry around with you all the time.
You've demonstrated a really effective and laudable way of
exchanging ideas! And how
.
My turn: Did you really say to those racists, "You
gentlemen are living in the past, and it's only the grace
and politeness of these people that keeps you healthy in
the present. I suggest you think what you're saying"? Did
you really SAY that? I cannot imagine anybody actually
SPEAKING in that manner. Did you really SAY that? If I
heard anybody speaking in a manner that so dripped with
pretension I would get a gaggle of my Chinese friends to
attack YOU!
Well, frege, I guess it was when you said in post #49 that
you'd met "some UEL types" and had "some nice conversations"
that I fell into my sticklerism and thought you meant that
there had been some people, rather than one, and some
conversations, rather than one. And then when you said
"they" came to love you for your utter anti-Americanism I
assumed that you were using a plural form. Sorry. An
unforgivable blunder on my part. I thought you were a guy
who wore his anti-Americanism on his sleeve and displayed it
proudly as an entree with a certain type. It didn't take a
lot of dissecting, you know. If you don't mean things, don't
say them.
-
As far as what I said to those other hypocritical types on
Bus #4, give or take a word, it's what I said. It obviously
conveyed the meaning I intended, given the quality of their
curses in response, the closing of their mouths thereafter,
and the nods of appreciation and smiles I got from the other
people on the bus whose humanity had been egregiously
assaulted. I was trying for UEL tone to chastise UEL types,
and if you find it pretentious, let me refer you back to
evan's original post, Kant's cant, and my original parody.
I'm still waiting for what you would have said. It should be
priceless.
-
And I'll save a seat for your "gaggle" of Chinese friends,
because if your proficiency with plural forms in the past is
any indication, this term (usually applied to geese, not
humans) leads me to expect a single nice little Chinese lady
with sweet reminiscences of the Sung Dynasty.
Carlos?
has been cancelled until further notice.
rules. Amusing to see all the others displaying, simply
put, JEALOUSY?
There is a word for a lot of the comments on this post,
"Jealousy"
... is now officially over. Thanks for coming.