Toronto's the place...

This topic was created by Evan
[Mon 3 May, 13:44 Tasmanian Standard Time]

Just got back from an eight month trip in which I and my
woman-friend bought a car and travelled all over North
America. As much as we enjoy nature, we're city lovers who
are contemplating a move to North America in the near
future. So this trip was part fun, part serious
investigation.
The results? Mexico City is the most intriguing city on
the continent - there is an intense sadness there, you feel
it the minute you walk out of the arrival lounge of the
airport. New York could never live up to the hype - we
weren't surprised at our disappointment with the place -
perhaps being Londoners, we have more literary expectations
than can be satisfied by belligerent heroin addicts in the
park in Greenwich Village. We'll give Boston a positive
nod, though. Yes, on the East Coast Boston seems the most
cosmopolitan, although at the same time it's disturbingly
segregated.
Chicago seemed to want to hold us, but then we realized it
was only its skyscrapers that were entreating us. After a
few days the boorishness of its citizens' "midwestern
charm" became overwhelming. And while staring up at Frank
Lloyd Wright masterpieces is nourishing, one wishes there
were more to see at ground level. How do they live in
those ubiquitous four-floor walkups?
San Francisco is far too self-conscious in its attempt to
appear European, and that spoiled it for us. For every
hipster in a cafe in North Beach there are ten "49ers fans"
driving pickup trucks around the block. Perhaps when
compared to the rest of America this city has a European
feel, but then that's going to the lowest denominator. We
felt like asking people there, "Why don't you just pack up
and move to Europe, instead of sitting in San Francisco
pretending you are?" A bit like playing American football
at a park in London - doesn't fit, does it?
Forget Los Angeles. Forget Seattle (what a waste of gas -
do Americans really believe that Seattle has a music scene
capable of producing more than Pearl Jam grunge-ofied rip-
offs?) Forget Austin too (another waste of gas - a liberal
oasis in a sea of "cracker" culture is, again, going to the
lowest denominator).
We came to the conclusion that the only bearable city in
North America is Toronto. Very cosmopolitan, very quirky,
with some of the reserve you find among Canadians (a
delight after American boorishness), yet as the world's
most ethnically diverse city the neighbourhoods are
distinct and charming. Only New York touches Toronto for
breadth and variety of ethnic groups in one city (You know
a Londoner is being honest when he admits of this - we have
our own conceits to being one of the world's grandest
ethnic stews) Architecturally, Toronto relies a little too
much on Victorian brick "row housing", and its yearning to
have a financial district full of gleaming glass towers is
suspect, but that can be forgiven. What really impressed
us about Toronto was the amount of cultural activity
happening, especially musically in the clubs along Queen
Street and also along Bloor Street. While no city in the
world can touch London for live music, Toronto is
astounding for its variety and quality, and I would rate it
second to London if only for those two reasons - obviously
New York is bigger, so it surpasses Toronto in quantity
(but not London, of course). The theatre as well seems to
be flourishing - we read that Toronto now has the world's
third most active theatre life, after London and New York.
Quite impressive for a city of only 3 or 4 million all told.
Is this a love letter? No, merely an appreciation of what
urban North America has to offer. If it ever came to the
day that I and my woman-friend were to move to that
continent, I believe we know which city would be the most
attractive to us.

[There are 63 posts - the latest was added on Mon 17 May, 13:31]

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  1. zzzz Added by: Impressed
    [Timestamp: Mon 3 May, 17:24 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Thank you. Now do fuck off, you pedantic little git.



  2. Thanks Added by: Torontonian
    [Timestamp: Mon 3 May, 18:07 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Evan,
    I won't take up much space, but I simply wanted to say
    thanks for the kind words. I am living in Europe now, but
    I am from Toronto. I am really pleased to hear that you
    really enjoyed the city. I miss the cultural diversity, it
    is something which Toronto should be proud of, something it
    can show the world. People of different believes and
    background can live and work together peacefully. But you
    are correct in saying that is it the second best in the
    world. London is obviously No.1.
    Thanks again.



  3. Did you do Toronto Added by: Walt
    [Timestamp: Mon 3 May, 19:58 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    in the winter time? Try driving or flying into Tronno
    between the end of January to mid February. If there is the
    usual blizzard and temperatures hovering around -30
    celcius, I am sure you and your woman friend would opt for
    Mexico city. Toronto in the winter is a mass of boring, ice
    cold concrete during the longest season of the year that
    lasts 8 long months.



  4. Toronto in winter Added by: Evan
    [Timestamp: Mon 3 May, 23:10 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    To Walt:
    We were in Toronto for all of January and much of
    February. The weather, while certainly colder than London,
    was the same as in New York, and not as cold as Chicago.
    It never fails to amaze me how ignorant Americans are of
    the geography of their own backyard! Fully 3/5 of your
    country's population live in the same climate as Southern
    Ontario.



  5. Yer crazy Added by: New Yorker
    [Timestamp: Mon 3 May, 23:19 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    New York is the best city in the world, it's the most
    happening place on the planet. If it ain't here, it don't
    exist. We got Broadway, we got Jerry Seinfeld in the Upper
    West Side, we got Brooklyn, we got St. Mark's Place and the
    CBGB for underground music, and we got all the best writers
    in the world.
    You can take your London and Toronto and go on pretending,
    but you aren't fooling anybody.



  6. Another Toronto supporter Added by: Eccles
    [Timestamp: Mon 3 May, 23:25 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Evan, please forgive the belligerence of the New Yorkers on
    this website - they're just as obnoxious on-line as they
    are in person. Toronto has 80% of what makes New York
    great, and only 20% of what makes it bad. I'll take those
    odds any day.



  7. Bravo! Added by: GangWarily (durmil@earthlink.net)
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 0:31 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    What a wonderful recapitulation of your trip...beautifully
    written and a very fair analysis of these cities, imho.
    Yes - we Midwesterners do have our earthy charms
    *laughing*...and we get mightily bored with ourselves too,
    believe you me. Stoicism is fine for a while, but after
    half a lifetime it just tips over into repression. We mean
    well, though. :)
    Thank you for posting this great review - let's hope the LP
    staff takes note (folks?) and archives it!
    Best regards.



  8. The best...troll ? Added by: Franτois (flasalle@cldvs.com)
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 0:37 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Evan, it seems a little arrogant to say that Toronto is "the
    only bearable city in North America" when you certainly
    didn't see all of them, especially since you said you had
    spent almost two of your eight months in Toronto. What
    about Miami, Vancouver, MontrΘal, Atlanta, Washington and a
    host of others ? What's more, I don't see how spreading
    your remaining time in seven other cities, a few weeks each,
    would give you a clear picture. You should at least spend
    two seasons (if not a full year) in a place before you claim
    such expert knowledge. Or were you charmed by the fact that
    Toronto is one of the most royalty/Queen-loving towns in the
    Commonwealth ? They serve afternoon tea in Victoria BC too,
    you know ;- )



  9. oh, please, Francois Added by: frege
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 6:22 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Lovely post. Now Francois, if Evan found BOSTON
    disturbingly segregated, why do you think he would give a
    thumbs up to places like DC or Atlanta or Miami? I really
    doubt he or anybody would find any of those cities to be
    more liveable than TO, because they simply aren't. And the
    option of living in one of their gated, monocultural
    suburbs doesn't sound like his cuppa tea either.
    Vancouver's great but his interest is a mjor city and Van
    ain't major. Montreal? Nice place to visit but what
    anglophone would even consider *living* there? I think that
    Evan's urban tour of North America is perfectly
    appropriate-- he visited the only cities that could
    possibly vie for world-clas status and discovered, like any
    observant observer would, that Toronto is the most liveable
    major city in North America. Live with it.



  10. A bit one-sided, aren't we frege ? Added by: Franτois (flasalle@cldvs.com)
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 6:59 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    I have no problem with your opinion that Toronto is the best
    city in North America or even the world. Fact is, each
    major city has people who say the same for their neck of the
    woods, and your attitude is no different - live with that !
    Thanks for that "anglos won't live in MontrΘal" barb, it's
    really cute. FYI a large number of anglophones here live
    their entire lives without speaking a word of french, since
    MontrΘal is a far more bilingual city than Toronto, and IMHO
    even more ethnically diverse.
    *
    My argument is that getting to know and evaluate a city is
    way more demanding time-wise than taking a 3-4 week vacation
    there like Evan did. You can't rank things like atmosphere,
    cultural festivals or seasonal events in 3 weeks, forget it.
    Besides, choosing a place to live is as subjective as the
    tastes of the person making the choice: some will find Miami
    to their liking, some will prefer Boston. There are no
    universal criteria except some very unemotional data on cost
    of living, crime rate, etc... The rest is up to each of us,
    even if our friend Evan proposes that his preferences be
    accepted as gospel. As I said, a bit arrogant.



  11. ee Added by: ee
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 7:14 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    For the last time, America is our place not yours. We don't
    give a damn if our cities appeal to your fish and chip
    eating palate or not. 50 years after the world stopped
    giving a damn about what Britain thinks, you still walk
    around like the sun never sets on your empire.



  12. Toronto is a great place until you actually live there Added by: western man
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 7:16 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Please move to Toronto. Just what Eastern Canada needs:
    another self congratulatory wind bag.



  13. Yeah, this is a troll post but what the hell. Added by: Conrad
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 9:44 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Well, I agree with Francois on one point and disagree with him on another. First of all, yes, there is no quantitative means to determine what makes a city good or bad. It is all personal taste. I live in Toronto and think it's a great city, but I also spent a few years in Winnipeg and actually would rather live there. Not many people would pick Winnipeg as the "best city" in North America, but it was good fit with my personal tastes; relatively small, very friendly, and with just enough going on in the city to keep me interested. Different strokes for different folks. I've met people from Hamilton that would never live anywhere else!! Makes no sense to me but it does to them. Fine. So, of the places in North America that Evan (original poster) has been, Toronto was the best fit for his personal tastes. What's the big deal?



  14. He's trying to appear objective... Added by: New Yorker
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 12:46 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    ... is the point. He's expressing his opinion, but trying
    to appear objective at the same time.
    If he was only expressing his personal tastes, then he
    could go live in Toledo Ohio and be happy. But he's trying
    to speak for lots of people, and be urbane.
    If that's the case, then New York's still the place. It's
    got everything. You can't deny it.



  15. It's a pleasant place Added by: Geoffrey
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 13:08 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Toronto left me feeling enervated. Boston left me feeling
    cold, uncomfortable, weary of blacks on the subway and on
    some of the streets. I spent much of my time in Boston
    looking over my shoulder.
    But Toronto has very little to be afraid of, and much to
    enjoy. It truly does have the most varied ethnic makeup of
    any city in the world. During one week I ate a different
    culture's food for every meal of every day. And I didn't
    have to go very far to do it (stayed around Kensington
    Market, Spadina, College).
    I think we English are too reticent, while you Canadians
    have just the right amount of reserve.



  16. Trawno? Forget it... Added by: travel grrrl
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 13:17 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    If you love a mass of wasps (white anglo-saxon protestants)
    who are afraid to admit that they're being suffocated by
    the immigrants (but admit it amongst themselves), then go
    to toronto. toronto has the most immigrants of any city in
    the world, but so what if the wasps keep control and
    relegate the afro-canadians to jane and finch?
    the world is a big place, this lonely planet site is
    supposed to be opening up your eyes... you should be
    wanting to get AWAY from toronto, to see the places that
    the immigrants came from.



  17. Thrilled Added by: to listen
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 13:32 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Uh, sorry. I nodded off. Can you repeat that?



  18. Toronto is special Added by: Kant
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 13:33 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Let me add my voice to those praising Toronto. I have been
    chained, by my job, to the city of St. Louis Missouri for
    the last five years. For any urban American being
    consigned to St. Louis is a harsh enough fate; for this
    Londoner it's been, erm... pure hell. Not that the people
    aren't friendly, but then Goofy the Walt Disney dog is
    friendly too - now and then one needs some intellectual and
    artistic stimulation that go beyond scarfing Budweiser beer
    at the cookout.
    I was lucky enough to attend a convention in Toronto this
    past winter, and was immediately charmed by the people and
    the city. I agree with Evan that the Victorian row houses
    do get a bit monotonous, but then I find that much
    preferable to mid-western clapboard. Nevertheless, I felt
    as if London had dressed up in American clothes, yet still
    remained British enough to be bearable. Excellent theatre,
    music, and literary prospects are to be enjoyed in Toronto
    as well. And, I've never eaten so well in North America as
    I have in Toronto, although nothing, in my mind, will ever
    surpass the curry take-away in London.
    Needless to say I've put in for a transfer to Toronto, but
    will have to wait for a few months to see if it comes
    through. Ahhh... it will be good to come up for air and
    breathe freely of things cosmopolitan again. The Midwest
    can be so stifling!



  19. T.O. is the place to go Added by: Hogtown Hank
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 13:43 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    T.O. has got everything New York has, except for the worst
    parts of the Bronx. But really, who needs the Bronx and
    the dismal celebration of mediocrity that people there are
    doing with their art and retrospectives at politically
    correct galleries?
    The world comes to Toronto, and we welcome it. Hey, I'm a
    wasp... but damned if I want to live in a lily-white city,
    or an american style city where there are lots of whites, a
    minority of blacks, and 0.001% of other ethnic groups
    (yeah, I've been to St. Louis once... ONCE!)
    Forty years ago my father ate fish and chips in Kensington
    Market. Today, within a three or four block stretch you've
    got the whole world's culinary treasures waiting to be
    sampled.
    Where else in the world do you get this? I've been all
    over Asia and Europe, and I still haven't found a place as
    ethnically diverse as Toronto. Where, I ask?



  20. my 2 cents Added by: mikey (m_silk@hotmail.com)
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 14:00 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    grrl#16, who ever told anybody to live at jane and finch?! walt#3, are you aware that a temperature of -30 has happened once in the past twenty years?! francois, how can you give an opinion that montreal is MORE ethnically diverse, keeping in mind that it made headlines last week that for the first time in history a black judge was appointed in quebec? even ex-montrealers like myself are realizing that the place is WAY behind the times. the only ethnicities you care about are frog and bloke. (anyone outside the immediate area will not understand the last sentence but don't worry about it.) oui, je t'invite a continuer la conversation en francais si tu veux.



  21. And it's got the CN Tower Added by: Mark
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 14:03 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    You know it MUST be good



  22. CN Tower? Added by: Kelsey
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 15:19 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    The CN Tower is penis worship gone haywire, and adds
    nothing at all to Toronto save for making the skyline look
    like something out of the Jetsons. Better to chat up the
    neighborhoods - that's what makes Toronto distinctive.



  23. What's this Toronto thing? Added by: Thurmond
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 15:31 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Call me an ignorant American, but I don't see what all the
    fuss is about. No, I haven't been to Toronto. And no, I
    don't want to go. I'm happily settled down here in Western
    Pennsylvania, thank you very much. What do you have that
    the States hasn't got?
    Evan: you should have come to Pittsburgh. The world's
    best kept secret. It isn't just steel anymore.
    #7 Gangwarily: I guess you don't mind foreigners stomping
    all over Uncle Sam. Midwesterners are the friendliest,
    most truthworthy people in the world.
    #11 ee: You said it all. This is OUR country! It's the
    best in the world!
    #15 Geofrey: Canadians may be reserved, but we've got the
    largest standing reserve unit in the world, bar none.
    #18 Kant: Go back to England if you don't like St. Louis.
    Cause if you don't like St. Louis, you ain't much. My
    sister happens to live there, and everytime I go there I
    think it's cool. Go back to England. This is our country.
    #19 Hogtown hank: where else can you get what? What? What
    the hell are you talking about?!?! Weird food? Cause if
    you're talking about liberty, freedom, and justice for all,
    you're talking about the best damn country in the world,
    the grand ole U. S. of A.!!!



  24. Wave the flag... Added by: Eccles
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 15:36 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    ... until you're dead, Thurmond. Then, allow those of us
    with a more refined outlook to continue living. Would that
    be too much to ask?



  25. Okay, Thurmond Added by: Geoffrey
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 15:57 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    We'll call you an ignorant American.



  26. Evan, have you lost your mind? Added by: Wilbur
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 16:04 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Listen, I've never been to Toronto, but I sure as hell have
    been to London. Evan, stay in London already. I know it's
    crowded, traffic's lousy, and you pay a thousand pounds a
    month for a shoebox-sized apartment, but that place is
    happening. It's the center of European finance, if nothing
    else. And I hate to use the "R" word, but it's a damn
    sight more refined than New York will ever be.
    If you could get me a job there I'd be back in a minute.



  27. OK, OK Added by: Walt
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 16:59 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    I exagerrated a bit then. The temperature in Toronto gets
    down to minus 29 celcius and with the wind chill factor
    coming off of the frozen banks of Lake Ontario, it feels
    like bloody minus 30, 40, 50 or 60. Even minus 10 for a few
    weeks is pretty tough to take. Its awful having to drive a
    car coated in frozen mud and salt for half a year because
    its too damn cold to wash the car. In my first winter in
    Toronto, I couldn't get the car door open cause it and the
    lock was frozen shut. Had to use a friend's hair blow dryer
    on two extension cords to get it open. Terrible to have to
    put on 40lbs of clothing just to walk the two or three
    blocks to get my favorite ethnic take-out food. Alot of
    Torontonians cocoon throughout those long winter months and
    sink into a lifestyle of lethargy and self preservation.
    WASPS sitting around eating Jamaican pasties, pizza by the
    slice (99cents), almond chicken guy ding in black bean
    sauce, etc., while complaining about immigrants. Come
    spring, they all have the same look; slightly pink,
    overweight and arrogant.
    Take off to the Carribean for the winter months and Toronto
    gets to feel like one of the greatest cities on earth.
    Finally... Evan, you had made the biggest mistake you could
    have by assuming that I (a Canadian) was an American.
    Please be more careful. Many of us have a bit of Canadian
    pride-even if we hate winters in Toronto.
    Cheers!
    Walt



  28. Walt, you still missed... Added by: Evan
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 23:03 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    ... the point. While I admit I may have been hasty in
    assigning you an American nationality, you might be
    generous and admit that, looked at through my eyes, your
    post could have easily been written by an American. No?
    About the cold, then - your description of Toronto in
    winter applies to 3/5 of the American population living in
    the northern states. In my comparison of the most
    interesting cities in North America, only Mexico City and
    San Francisco don't experience the same winters Toronto
    does. New York, Chicago, Minneapolis and Boston have the
    same climate (for that matter, my friend in Minneapolis
    claims that temperatures there regularly drop to -40 C,
    while another friend in Toronto swears that it almost never
    gets below -10 C -- is she wrong?)
    We did feel cold in Toronto, but there were also a few days
    that were extremly pleasant - romantic even, with the tufts
    of white snow drifting around Hyde Park.
    Your gregarious self-deprecation seems almost a bit too
    Canadian, if I may say so. Were I to be lauding the merits
    of Philadelphia (horrors) or Atlanta (even worse), the
    residents of those cities would have been patting
    themselves on the backs to no end. Then again, we have now
    discovered first-hand that this lack of arrogance is indeed
    one of your country's charms.



  29. You know, the biggest reason I hate Toronto is because Added by: BC-boy
    [Timestamp: Tue 4 May, 23:11 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    it sucks really bad.



  30. Seems we all agree... Added by: Franτois (flasalle@cldvs.com)
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 0:16 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    ...to each his own ! I'll clarify my point one last time,
    for the sake of arguing (which I love so much): I have
    nothing against Toronto and indeed I think it's a great
    city, even if it's not MY favorite. I'm just irritated by
    Evan's attitude and lopsided evaluation methods - you might
    say I'm arguing the format instead of the contents. My main
    beef is probably with the way Evan passes off his taste in
    cities as an official announcement, but I applaud devotion
    to a city, especially one not his own to begin with.
    *
    mikey (#20), there's no need for me to test your french or
    use it to communicate in here, that would be a bit rude. I
    don't calculate some sort of "ethicity factor" by the number
    of black judges, it's more a feel than anything and I can't
    support it with reliable stats. I get the impression that
    MontrΘal has a more integrated ethnic background as opposed
    to the neatly divided 'hoods of Toronto, but that could just
    as easily be related to city size or the fact that I've
    never lived there. Like I wrote, it's an opinion. If you
    feel like starting some sort of discussion on the subject
    of MontrΘal's "behind the times" status, create a thread and
    I'll show up ;- )



  31. Geez Added by: Impressed
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 4:31 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    It's too funny. Toronto is a nice place but this fawning
    by several Canadians over being patted on the head by a
    twenty-something sophomoric English cunt who talks in
    adolescent speak of "music-scenes" and ridiculous self-
    important generalizations is downright puke-making.



  32. Mexico City is SAD???? Added by: debi
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 4:47 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Good lord, I could think of thousands of ways to describe
    Mexico City but sad is never one of them! Did you do
    anything there or just flew in and left? It has one of the
    world's best archeological museums, one of the most awesome
    parks, Xochomilco-the floating gardens, a huge ruin with
    more being uncovered all the time, one of the hugest plazas
    in the world, etc., etc., etc.! Unfortunately I was not
    there long enough because the pollution and altitude
    bothered me quite a bit but I will go back again and again.
    It's nice to know you won't be there making it seem sad. I
    think you are a sad Brit. A true traveller sees beauty
    everywhere, you are a TOURIST and therefor not permitted to
    post on Lonely Planet ever again. Adios!



  33. Airport lounges... Added by: Carlos
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 8:17 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    are not exactly the best way to appreciate any city.
    Certainly the literary pretentions of our cultivated Brit
    friend here do not include Malcom Lowry, Antonin Artaud,
    Surrealists such as Breton and some filmakers such as
    Eisenstein, Bu±uel even Scouce Alex Cox.
    This is the kind of Brit that make people think Brits are
    pretentious cunts.
    Fuck!



  34. Oh, I Say! Added by: Karlo
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 13:53 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    By Jove! Egad! Went to Mexico City, you know. Wretched. Poor
    blighters have a single emotion among 'em. Doubtless the
    beans. Blimey!
    -
    Tried New York; what you'd expect. Putting on airs about
    being the financial capital of the world. Really! Don't
    they know that measure of success went out years ago?
    -
    Boston, though. More beans, but a bit of all right. Homey.
    Cold. Gray. Episcopaleans and Irish. Very Cosmopolitan.
    Could do with a bit more fog, though.
    -
    Chicago, now. Something there. Big shoulders, what? Too big,
    really. And everything so bloody MEATY! Hard on the teeth,
    don't you know.
    -
    And San Francisco! Full of Italians acting Italian, and the
    like, and yet 49ers T-Shirts! I ask you! Did they hope to
    take us in with such a flimsy ruse? Those blighters in
    Silicon Valley pretending to be European, and living in the
    past.
    -
    There are other cities, too, you know, but why go on? In all
    of them, it was the same. We did our best to enlighten them,
    but I fear they were too boorish.
    -
    But Cheerio! What hey! Yoiks! Toronto! Ah, Toronto. They
    love the Queen Mum there, you know. They all wish they were
    back in England, so they do the next-best thing, and suck up
    handsomely to an important representative of the superior
    ways of the Old Country like myself.
    -
    Makes me a bit dewy just thinking about going back to where
    the colonials know how to value a British gentleman at his
    true worth. Truly, we won't be giving those bloody Yanks any
    more opportunities to call us pretentious little lightweight
    fops. Sniff.



  35. Responses Added by: Evan
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 15:29 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    #31 Impressed: I don't know how you came up with your
    reference to my "patting" Canadians on the head -- in this
    day and age "twenty-something sophomoric English cunts" are
    already two generations removed from the wistful arrogance
    of empires declined. You read "self-important
    generalizations" into my complete sentences and non-
    American syntax. This never fails to amuse English people,
    who are so often confronted by Americans intent on "dumbing
    down" the language while at the same time being completely
    oblivious to the xenophobic and imperialist nature of their
    distaste for other varieties of English -- the very problem
    we English used to have. Funny how the tables turn.
    #34 Karlo: I'm flattered! How did you know that we
    English love to hear Americans imitate our peculiar accents
    and speech patterns? Really top-notch. Well done.



  36. The Yanks can be so sensitive, can't they? Added by: Canadian bystander
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 15:37 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Funny how when the English write an appreciation of
    anything American, the Yanks take it as a matter of
    course. But when, the horror! - an English person
    expresses a preference for something Canadian over
    something American, they find it so unbelievable that their
    only recourse is to bewildered sarcasm. Karlo lampoons
    English self-importance, but doesn't realize that the
    parody has no bite, because English travellers under the
    age of 30 don't show any of the self-importance that many
    (not all) Americans do.
    And Karlo doesn't realize just how imperialistic his parody
    is - ironic when you consider that he's making fun of the
    imperial attitude of a bygone era!



  37. What is all this? Added by: Thurmond
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 21:15 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    What the heck is this long thread going on for anyway? Why
    are you all getting upset over Toronto? I mean, for
    Christ's sake... what are so many people getting riled up
    about Canada for?
    Besides, this is the American part of Lonely Planet, for
    people who want to come to the U.S.A.
    Get on topic!!



  38. Why can't we all... Added by: Julia
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 21:25 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    ... just get along? I'm American, but I consider myself a
    citizen of the world. We are all brothers and sisters,
    when you get down to it.



  39. We're sensitive all right Added by: Dude
    [Timestamp: Wed 5 May, 21:30 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Sensitive to the kind of crap I see on display here. An
    American would never have written the kind of crap that the
    English jerkoff did.



  40. Why can you all.. Added by: Fool-lia
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 1:07 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    ... just move along? You're American, but you consider
    yourself a citizen of the world. You are all brothers and
    sisters, when you get down to it.



  41. Irony, Indeed Added by: Karlo
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 1:11 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Well, Evan and Canadian bystander, you poor watercressed
    souls, the true irony is that your assumption of my
    Americanism overlooks my basic Canadian nationality. I'm not
    lampooning the Brit imperial attitudes of a bygone era, I'm
    lampooning Evan's present condescending atitudes of last
    Monday. He's the sort of sad fop who would wilt if uprooted
    from Limey or pseudo-Limey soil. The self-parodying anxious
    lapdog desire of the all of the Torontonians posting to lick
    Evan's kindly English hand shows me that Travel Grrl has it
    pretty right about the place, although BCBoy might be overly
    harsh.
    -
    I also have a preference for things Canadian, but some
    compliments are best left untaken. I've met any number of
    very fine Englishpersons of all ages who don't write the
    sort of sweepingly superior judgmental claptrap that Evan is
    foisting off here. A compliment to Canada from a dip like
    Evan is sort of like a compliment on your wardrobe from Don
    Cherry or Peewee Herman; accepting the compliment shows
    more about your own bad taste than your mutual grandeur.
    -
    But tell me, Canadian observer, do the Brits all become
    imperialistic on their 31'st birthday, or did some change
    come about so that those born after 1970? And how do you
    know that Evan isn't over 30? While I was expressing my
    sardonic amusement at Evan's personal vaporings, you seem
    desperate to turn thing nationalistic. You aren't waving the
    Maple Leaf when you glorify T-O, buddy, just the town flag.
    It's a big country.



  42. Um, Thurmond... Added by: Franτois (flasalle@cldvs.com)
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 1:15 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    You wrote "Besides, this is the American part of Lonely
    Planet, for people who want to come to the U.S.A."
    Whaaaaaaat ? Duh ? Please tell me you don't confuse "North
    America" with "USA property" ! Or is this a dum troll and
    you're perfectly aware this topic is in the NORTH AMERICA
    (as in US/Canada/Mexico) branch ?



  43. What exactly was #33 about? Added by: Cameron
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 1:24 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Being from Toronto, I've been following this debate with
    interest. Aside from the invariable American sludge in
    posts #31 and #34, and some of the other toss-off messages,
    the one post that stands out is #33.
    -
    Carlos said: "Airport lounges... are not exactly the best
    way to appreciate any city."
    -
    This is a valid point, although it has nothing to do with
    what Evan said. He said you start to feel the sadness as
    soon as you get to the arrival lounge, implying that it
    continues for the rest of your stay in el D.F. Which is
    absolutely true, and raises the question of whether debi in
    #32 was actually in the same Mexico City I went to.
    Anytime you have 10 million destitute people living in
    shanty towns surrounding another 10 million people living
    just one slight step beyond utter poverty, surrounding 4
    1/2 million people in the lower echelons of Mexico's
    working class, surrounding some 1/2 million economically
    comfortable to rich people, you've got a recipe for a sad,
    sad city. Add a history made up of Spanish subjugation, of
    war-time defeats, invasions, a huge loss of territory to
    the enemy to the north, extreme class tension and conflict,
    an unfinished revolution which started in the 1910's with
    Zapato and STILL hasn't resulted in a fair distribution of
    land, and then take a walk through the streets of Mexico.
    Even better, take a ride on the metro.
    -
    When you've done that, immediately go to the capital city
    of virtually any other country in the world outside of
    South America and Africa, and then tell me you didn't feel
    a sense of sadness in Mexico City in comparison with other
    cities.
    -
    Carlos, you'll have to explain what the aitch you meant
    when you said:
    "Certainly the literary pretentions of our cultivated Brit
    friend here do not include Malcom Lowry, Antonin Artaud,
    Surrealists such as Breton and some filmakers such as
    Eisenstein, Bu±uel even Scouce Alex Cox. This is the kind
    of Brit that make people think Brits are pretentious cunts"
    -
    You've piqued my curiosity with your references, but I
    don't quite see what you're driving at. Could you explain
    further?



  44. Karlo, you make some good points, I'll admit... Added by: Canadian bystander
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 2:09 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    You said:
    "I'm lampooning Evan's present condescending attitudes of
    last Monday. He's the sort of sad fop who would wilt if
    uprooted from Limey or pseudo-Limey soil."
    Granted, re-reading Evan's original post, he did use the
    term "boorish" twice, which is two too many times in my
    book. Although, dammit if I can't help but agree with
    him. He makes these grand generalizations about cities
    based on fleeting impressions, yet they all corroborate
    with my own impressions of those cities. Maybe one
    person's charm is another person's boorishness? As for
    your characterization of him wilting "if uprooted from
    Limey or pseudo-Limey soil", that's vacuous venom that only
    serves to make people wonder what inspires you to write it.
    -
    "The self-parodying anxious lapdog desire of the all of the
    Torontonians posting to lick Evan's kindly English hand
    shows me that Travel Grrl has it pretty right about the
    place..."
    Again, none of the other Canadians exhibit even the least
    bit of "anxious lapdog desire", save for post #2, although
    even that post was more a straightforward expression of
    appreciation for the appreciation. You're reading a
    "fawning" posture into posts that just don't have it, which
    only leads to speculation on the nature of your own
    insecurities.
    And another thing - I live in Toronto, and I don't know
    where the hell you and Travel Grrl are getting this
    colonial subject mentality from! Granted, this city does
    seem to be the conduit through which a lot of British music
    makes its appearance on the North American scene (to use
    the music example), but the Anglo connection is stronger in
    Victoria B.C. (get it? it's even CALLED Victoria) than in
    Toronto.
    -
    "I also have a preference for things Canadian, but some
    compliments are best left untaken. I've met any number of
    very fine Englishpersons of all ages who don't write the
    sort of sweepingly superior judgmental claptrap that Evan
    is foisting off here. A compliment to Canada from a dip
    like Evan is sort of like a compliment on your wardrobe
    from Don Cherry or Peewee Herman; accepting the compliment
    shows more about your own bad taste than your mutual
    grandeur."
    This is a wonderfully expressive paragraph, so well written
    that I wanted to be swayed by it. Mostly because it's
    true. Problem is, it's not true about the postings on this
    thread, and so your rhetorical straw man is still standing
    in the other corner, waiting for you to stop punching air.
    Having said that, during my three years in London (during
    which I, at times, missed Toronto a lot -- ooops, shouldn't
    have said that!) I came to the realization that a lot of
    English people sound arrogant to the North American ear
    because they use a larger vocabulary than we do. Even the
    stall owners on Electric Avenue in Brixton (most of whom
    aren't Caribbean, though - poor example) sound like
    university professors compared to mechanics in Mississauga.
    -
    "But tell me, Canadian observer, do the Brits all become
    imperialistic on their 31'st birthday, or did some change
    come about so that those born after 1970?"
    It was a figure tossed out of thin air, gimme a break.
    "And how do you know that Evan isn't over 30?"
    Didn't he imply as much? See post #35.
    "While I was expressing my sardonic amusement at Evan's
    personal vaporings, you seem desperate to turn thing
    nationalistic."
    You got me there. I assumed you were American. Which was
    off base, actually, because aside from the nut-bar named
    Thurmond, your average American wouldn't have read past the
    title "Toronto's the place", so I should have assumed that
    you were Canadian.
    -
    "You aren't waving the Maple Leaf when you glorify T-O,
    buddy, just the town flag. It's a big country."
    Point well taken, when in a discussion with a group of
    Canadians. Although in the context of Americans griping
    about things Canadian, perhaps not.



  45. My dear Cobserver... Added by: Karlo
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 2:45 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    For corroboration of the condescending Brit attitude that
    oozes out of evan's post, may I refer you to Kant's cant,
    Canto 18, on his visit to TO: "I felt that London had
    dressed up in American clothes, yet still remained British
    enough to remain bearable." If my lampoon fails, it's
    because there's no way short of saying it with Kantian
    conviction to really convey that provincialism disguised as
    cosmopolitanism. The vast majority of Brits aren't that way
    at all, but these two are.
    -
    A lot of people above thought this was a troll. The sad part
    is, it wasn't meant to be. The sadder part is seeing fellow
    Canadians acting like fawning colonials. I don't have
    problems with people speaking advanced English; I have a
    degree in English Lit. I only object when the words spoken
    are ludicrous.



  46. Dear Evan Added by: Impressed
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 4:12 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    England holds no mysteries for me, syntactical or otherwise.
    I was born and raised there by English parents. Matter of
    fact I have an elder brother who went to Sandhurst and was
    a member of Her Majesty's Horse Guards and I drink lots of
    tea so I am an authentic anglophile. My problem with you
    is that you don't represent England very well coming across
    as a stereotypical silly snob.



  47. Karlo... Added by: frege
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 4:13 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Where do you live? I will guess it isn't Toronto.
    .
    The hatred that non-Torontonian Canucks feel and express
    towards Toronto is even stronger than American's jingoism.
    If you did live in TO, you would know that Anglophilia is
    pretty thin on the ground here.
    .
    I'm an American who emigrated here a couple of years ago,
    and I don't see any of the pandering to England that you
    are so strident about. I do see a lot of proud citizens who
    are pleased to get the affirmation that Evan provides. And
    a lot of those citizens- perhaps the majority, the really
    committed Toronto boosters- are, like me, immigrants. They
    aren't "fawning colonials"; they have seen the horrendous
    conditions in other cities and love what Toronto offers.
    They often have no connection with or orientation
    whatsoever toward England.



  48. Frege... Added by: Karlo
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 10:14 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    I'm a Western Canadian, but I don't dislike Toronto. It's a
    fine city. I'm glad you've found a place to embrace and
    boost. There's no crusader like a convert, they say, and if
    evan's little spiel brings out the blush in you or the TO
    Chamber of Commerce, I'm glad for the lot of you.
    -
    I'm not responding to this post out of hatred for Toronto,
    it's the pomp and smarminess of evan in the original and
    Kant,Torontonian and Canadian bystander in sycophantic
    support that are ludicrous. My reading of walt, francois,
    western man, travel grrrl, carlos, impressed, etc. is that
    they were moved by emotions similar to mine.
    -
    I don't dislike the British, either. Some of my best friends
    are limeys. But "Impressed" in post #46 condemns eloquently
    and succinctly the type of Britishness that rankles even a
    born anglophile, and that evan represents. If you're finding
    the United Empire Loyalist types thin on the ground in
    Toronto these days, great. Like marmite, they're best spread
    extremely thin, or left off altogether. You can be certain,
    though, that even in an attenuated state, they disapprove of
    you, my formerly-boorish lad.



  49. ...thanks... Added by: frege
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 10:51 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    I've met UEL types and have had some nice conversations
    with them- when they gather how utterly anti-American I am
    they soften right up.
    .
    Toronto is just not an "English" city. It is the kind of
    place that could only exist in Canada... well, Canada or
    Australia.



  50. Anglophiles of the world unite! Added by: Evan
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 14:21 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    I'm a little shocked that I've provoked so much response to
    my appreciation for Toronto. Thanks, Canadian Observer,
    for coming to my defense. And even more, thank you for
    pointing out that too much use of the term "boorish"
    doesn't sit well with people on the receiving end. That
    you mentioned that I probably don't sound so snobbish in
    person as I have in this Thorn Tree was a very astute
    comment, and hopefully true.
    I feel compelled to reply to "Impressed", who wasnt very.
    I never said that I wanted to represent England - good
    gawd, is every American who writes into this Thorn Tree a
    representative of the U.S. then? If that's the case, I'm
    surprised that anybody dares go there! I'm more for
    democratic representation. Round up all the Brit posts and
    glean a sort of consensual ethos, and make that the
    representative. This isn't a parliament, just an opinion
    page.
    I still can't help but think how uniquely Canadian this
    whole debate is - refreshing, really. I you'd taken my
    post and changed the cities about, perhaps inserting
    Chicago for Toronto, what would the response have been?
    Thirty Chicago residents yelping "yee-hah!", two or three
    admitting "it ain't that great, really", one or two Brits
    calling me a bad representative for anglophiles everywhere,
    and perhaps one person protesting that there is a better
    city over to the east.
    Called Toronto.
    It might have been me.



  51. Tell me, frege... Added by: Karlo
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 14:33 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    could you give us a sample of the spiel you'd use to impress
    a UEL type? Because last time I rode the Main St. bus in
    Vancouver, I was behind two of the chaps, and as the third
    of three Caucasians on a bus full of Chinese-Canadians, I
    was at a loss for words.
    -
    They were saying, loudly, "Just look at these people. Forty
    years ago, you didn't have to rub elbows with this lot. Now,
    just look! Damned immigration! And they breed like rabbits!"
    Etc.
    -
    I wish I'd had your help, because I couldn't think of a
    thing to say, except, "You gentlemen are living in the past,
    and it's only the grace and politeness of these people that
    keeps you healthy in the present. I suggest you think what
    you're saying." For which I was roundly cursed.
    -
    If I'd had some ready anti-Americanisms, I'm sure we'd have
    gotten on fine. Like maybe I could have said, "Hear,hear!
    Victoria now, pip of a town. It's as though London had
    dressed up in American clothes, but remained British enough
    to remain bearable. None of this lot. Rule Britannia, what?"
    -
    No, never mind. I'm glad I said what I did. By the way,
    frege were you struck blind on the road to Toronto?



  52. Where's Carlos? Added by: Cameron
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 17:21 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Hey Carlos, what were you talking about back in 33? Please
    explain!



  53. What the fuck! Added by: New Yorker
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 17:32 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Is this still going on? This many messages about a second-
    rate city like Toronto?
    Get a life already! There's only one city in the world
    that is OF the world, and that's the grand-daddy of them
    all, the BIG APPLE.
    Always insist on the best.



  54. Toronto has got to be Added by: BC-boy
    [Timestamp: Thu 6 May, 17:48 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    the ugliest city on the planet



  55. UEL Added by: frege
    [Timestamp: Fri 7 May, 1:30 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    I was in London (Ontario) last Canada Day and there was a
    UEL-sponsored event at the Armory there. I got to talking
    with a woman at one of the tables passing out UEL info and
    we had a conversation about how Canada should sue the US
    for loss of loayalists' property after the Revolutionary
    War (you remember, after Helms-Burton and the US right-wing
    tirades about canuck investment in Cuba) and I also
    reflected on the paltry teachings I had in school about the
    War of 1812. It was a pleasant conversation but one in
    which I iterated my great preference for living in Canada,
    so there was certainly no animosity from her about my being
    American. Discussions, good or bad, about immigrants,
    immigration, Chinese breeding practices, or anything else
    in your non-sequiter of a post weren't included.
    .
    Why do you ask if I was "struck blind" on the road to
    Toronto? Given the irrelevant nature of your last post I
    must ask in response if you suffered a neurological event
    of your own as you wrote it.
    .
    If you want to complain about racism in BC perhaps you
    should start a new thread-- FWIW one of my students is from
    Vancouver and is Chinese (I teach sociology at Ryerson) and
    he said, in a presentation on racism in Vancouver and
    Toronto, that he is shocked at the level of acceptance he
    feels in Toronto. And as an American who was seen, and
    indeed lived in, the worst of America (I grew up outside
    Gary Indiana), the multiculturalism and the ethnic and
    racial mingling and (relative, of course) PEACE astounds me
    here.



  56. Frege Added by: Karlo
    [Timestamp: Fri 7 May, 5:41 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    The "blind on the road" reference is to St. Paul, a fervid
    persecutor of Christians who was miraculously struck blind
    on the road to Damascus, miraculously healed on arrival, and
    as a result, became the most fanatical of proselytizers for
    his new outlook. I detected some of the same fervor in your
    post; possibly it was your self-identification with the
    "really committed Toronto boosters".
    -
    As to the nice little UEL lady, you must have spoken to her
    at the height of their smug little "we'll show you what
    hypocrites the Americans are over Helms-Burton" phase. That
    ended quickly when their lawsuit to recover damages for
    United Empire Loyalists (Tories, to Americans) from the
    American Revolution revealed that compensation had been paid
    by the US government at the time. Since this made claims by
    Cuban nationals whose property was expropriated by Castro
    look extremely justified, the UEL's were forced to fall back
    on their ever-so-current 1812 gloats. You might have missed
    it; for some reason, the CBC boosted the suit bigtime, but
    the egg-on-the-face outcome came out as a whisper.
    -
    From your earlier posts, I had assumed that "some" UEL types
    that you'd impressed meant "more than one lady whose
    misinformation you concurred with". I also assumed that your
    anti-American statements to ingratiate yourself were more
    current than 1812.
    -
    What makes my tale of the unreconstructed imperialists in
    Chinatown sequential is the point that you can endear
    yourself to them by being anti-anything-nonAnglo, if you're
    willing to sell cheaply enough. If you just bought into one
    nice lady's good graces by pointing out that you prefer
    Canada, bravo. Kind of a weak interpretation of your
    original suggestion that you found your way into "their"
    good graces by being "utterly anti-American", though. You
    can see how a guy might be misled.



  57. Thanks for the explanation Added by: frege
    [Timestamp: Fri 7 May, 6:01 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Well, thank you for that explanation Karlo. I'm a little
    remiss on my St Paul biography (imagine that!) so I didn't
    catch your reference. And goodness what a lovely example
    you are as a real stickler for detail- I recount a
    coversation with a UEL member and you scour my previous
    post- "Eureka! He wrote 'their,' not 'her,' so I'll
    castigate him for this." Bravo. I am sure this manner of
    "winning" an argument gives you that sense of satisfaction
    that you doubtless carry around with you all the time.
    You've demonstrated a really effective and laudable way of
    exchanging ideas! And how
    .
    My turn: Did you really say to those racists, "You
    gentlemen are living in the past, and it's only the grace
    and politeness of these people that keeps you healthy in
    the present. I suggest you think what you're saying"? Did
    you really SAY that? I cannot imagine anybody actually
    SPEAKING in that manner. Did you really SAY that? If I
    heard anybody speaking in a manner that so dripped with
    pretension I would get a gaggle of my Chinese friends to
    attack YOU!



  58. That Tricky English Language Added by: Karlo
    [Timestamp: Fri 7 May, 10:18 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Well, frege, I guess it was when you said in post #49 that
    you'd met "some UEL types" and had "some nice conversations"
    that I fell into my sticklerism and thought you meant that
    there had been some people, rather than one, and some
    conversations, rather than one. And then when you said
    "they" came to love you for your utter anti-Americanism I
    assumed that you were using a plural form. Sorry. An
    unforgivable blunder on my part. I thought you were a guy
    who wore his anti-Americanism on his sleeve and displayed it
    proudly as an entree with a certain type. It didn't take a
    lot of dissecting, you know. If you don't mean things, don't
    say them.
    -
    As far as what I said to those other hypocritical types on
    Bus #4, give or take a word, it's what I said. It obviously
    conveyed the meaning I intended, given the quality of their
    curses in response, the closing of their mouths thereafter,
    and the nods of appreciation and smiles I got from the other
    people on the bus whose humanity had been egregiously
    assaulted. I was trying for UEL tone to chastise UEL types,
    and if you find it pretentious, let me refer you back to
    evan's original post, Kant's cant, and my original parody.
    I'm still waiting for what you would have said. It should be
    priceless.
    -
    And I'll save a seat for your "gaggle" of Chinese friends,
    because if your proficiency with plural forms in the past is
    any indication, this term (usually applied to geese, not
    humans) leads me to expect a single nice little Chinese lady
    with sweet reminiscences of the Sung Dynasty.



  59. Where are you... Added by: Cameron
    [Timestamp: Wed 12 May, 15:24 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    Carlos?



  60. Toronto Added by: BC-boy
    [Timestamp: Wed 12 May, 15:29 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    has been cancelled until further notice.



  61. Toronto Added by: Winnie
    [Timestamp: Sat 15 May, 2:07 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    rules. Amusing to see all the others displaying, simply
    put, JEALOUSY?



  62. Toronto Added by: Winnie
    [Timestamp: Sat 15 May, 2:39 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    There is a word for a lot of the comments on this post,
    "Jealousy"



  63. Toronto... Added by: BC-boy
    [Timestamp: Mon 17 May, 13:31 Tasmanian Standard Time]

    ... is now officially over. Thanks for coming.




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