Why doesn't Syria just mind it's own business. It rules
Lebanon as virtually a proxy puppet state, it funds the
Kurdish terrorists in Turkey, it's ruled by a dictator Hafez
Assad who allows no opposition, it's not very enthusiastic
about the peace process, either. Smarten up, Syria!
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Er, Brenda, I'd say that Middle East affairs are pretty closely tied in with Syria' "business". Sure, Syria has plenty of troops in Lebanon, but so does Israel. Sure, Syria funds the Kurds in Turkey, but America funds the Kurds in Iraq. Sure Syria is ruled by a dictator, but, well, there's no shortage of THEM in the world. And there are very very good reasons why Syria is not very enthusiastic about the peace process -- largely because it expresses the very widely-held view in the Arab World that the much-vaunted process, that is so dearly beloved of American presidents, is a whitewash, a means by which Israel can dictate the terms to the Palestinians and get pretty much exactly what it wants. Syria is hardline -- but where's the crime in that? It espouses principles within international affairs that are rarely held these days; those of a right and an unforgivable wrong in the Arab-Israeli conflict, of an unwillingness to submit to the dictates of the US-led international community. It is governed by a kind of revolutionary-style socialism that has been utterly discredited by the western media, but which has much resonance for the Syrian and wider Arab peoples.
.
I think the problem here is one of image. Syria's image in the West is terrible, about as bad as any country's in the world; worse than Iran, about on a par with Libya. But Syria, and Libya too, are simply Arab countries (one Muslim, one secular) which choose to live according to ideas and principles entirely different from Western democratic ideals. These ideals, after victory in the Cold War and all, are NEVER EVER questioned in the West; western-style liberal democracy is seen as an unimpeachable triumphant good, the crowning achievement of human politics. To my mind, that simply isn't necessarily true. As in all things, it's a relative good. It has achieved many things, but it tends to exact a high, and often insidiously corrosive, price. I have no special love for Hafez al-Assad (in fact, I have no love for him at all), but I do have a love for countries and peoples who wish to live according to different principles from the West, who see as bad certain things that in the West are viewed as good, who choose to nurture ideals and principles that have become unfashionable in the West. To the Syrians (and to many Palestinians and others around the world) the peace process is a Trojan horse, and can never bring peace in the form in which it has been defined; Oslo was a betrayal, Netanyahu is what Israel deserves, and rejection of all Israeli offers is the ONLY way to proceed with care, reason, dignity, truth and honesty. That is not the view held in the White House, but hallelujah SOMEONE holds it.
.
It seems really important, to me, to ask WHY the US wants to outlaw certain countries like Syria, Sudan, Libya, Iraq, North Korea. What is going on behind that? Is it a genuine heartfelt desire on the part of the CIA and the Pentagon to advance the cause of truth and justice in the world? Or do they perhaps have other, less savoury, agendas running in tandem? Views like those held by Syria seem to me to be extremely important; it's just that we never really get to hear what they are, because most of us only hear what the Pentagon and Rupert Murdoch decide we should hear. So, as a result, we come to the conclusion that Syria should smarten up and get back in line with everyone else. It ain't necessarily so.
It would seem that any and every country formerly aligned
with the USSR will continue to be maligned by the western
media until those countries kowtow to the US.
If, Brenda, you are posting because of the border
skirmishes in the Hatay, read up about the events leading
to Turkey's acquisition of the area. I have never met Mr.
Assad or Mr. Clinton by I can vouch for Syrians in general
as being gracious, polite and also concerned about obtuse
misconceptions regarding their country.
Repeating without reflexion does not really lead us
anywhere, Brenda. Look at the region, get a feeling for the
developments of the last 100 years or so. And then think.
Maybe things do not seems so sure anymore as you think the
do at the moment.
Just get a knowledge of the region.
A little bit of an over-confrontational response, wouldn't you say, Carsten? Telling someone to "get a knowledge of the region" -- what do you mean by that? Brenda clearly has a deep and well-considered knowledge of the region that deserves more respect than you seem prepared to give her. You tell her to get knowledge, but offer nothing of your own for her to consider. Or were you trying to tell her "get MY knowledge of the region"?
that part of its national territory was ceded to Turkey in
1939 by a vote of its residents...and can't get over it.
The French occupied Syria for years after the first World
War, and the plebiscite is still not recognized by Syria on
its national maps. Syria is well aware that the Ataturk Dam
on the Euphrates can be closed or its flow reduced at any
time of Turkey's choosing. And in that part of the world,
water is paramount to continued existance. Syria is making
a wise, long-term move to rid itself of Ocalan and his
forces and seeking rapprochement with Turkey, a neighbor of
great power and endurance. You may not agree with this
move, but it is all part of a return to Turkish hegemony in
this region. The Ottoman Empire, weak and corrupt as it
became, is slowly being recreated economically if not
politically. Mustapha Kemal Ataturk would be pleased. And
the borders of all Turkey's neighbors may once again become
secure and peaceful, something we should all applaud.
While I agree with much of what you say I have to go with
Brenda on this one. Assad has used chemical weapons on his
own people. He had two towns completely wiped out
(estimated fatalities: 30,000)because of opposition
fomenting there.
Assad is as big a monster as Saddam Hussien.
There's a lot of knee-jerk crap above in defence of Syria.
It is indeed ruled by a brutal, murderous dictator whose
ugly mug is plastered all over Syrian imperial army posts
throughout Lebanon.
On the other hand, if Assad weren't there, Syria would be
ruled by brutal, murderous Muslim extremists like the ones
Assad's army turned into hamburger at Hama. Assad has kept
Syria relatively secular and life is okay (i.e. people
aren't very poor) if you don't expect western-style freedom.
Syrians are some of the most hospitable people in the world
(second only to Iranians).
The quarrel with Turkey has a long history, as mentioned
above (Antakya/Antioch is the region in dispute). As for
Israel, I'm not a blanket supporter of Israel, but I have
been to the Golan Heights from both sides and I can't blame
Israel for not wanting to give it up.
I have seen and enjoyed your postings many times. Sometimes
you are right (my opinion) and others not. This time you
are partially. I am from Syria and yes Hafez is known to
be brutal. I do take exception with your depiction of
events in Hama. I guess my nephew and his mother are now
hamburger. My nephew was 12 and his mother 32. They were
lined up on a wall and around the corner was my brother.
The ones on their wall were shot, the other wall wasn't
hence sparing my brother his life. He is not from Hama, he
just happened to be working there. Yes it was brutal but
Assad was shoring up his power from a group who tried to
assasinate him. On the other hand this group had their
definite differences with the government. You can't say
the people of Hama or the Muslim brotherhood were MUSLIM
murderous extremist. Almost everyone in Syria is Muslim so
Islam is hardly a distinguishing factor. It seems no
matter how many times we discuss the stereotyping of
Muslims on this tree, the message never gets through, even
to LONGTIME veterans of the tree like you. I am really
disappointed in your choice of words. I mean EXTREMEMLY
disappointed. Many times you have been a voice of reason
but you do hold stereotypical views. By now you should know
better. Just for your info, there are many, MANY people in
Syria who are extrememly poor. School teachers for
instance earn about 100 dollars a month. This is NOT
enough to live on. Not enough to take care of a family.
Have you not seen people begging? Granted it is not nearly
as bad as Cairo but there is dirt poor in every country.
This is a fact of economics. Things have been opening up
in Syria lately and this is a sign of encouragement,
however political discussions are still not advised.
The reason that Syria controls Lebanon as a puppet-state
is that Syria doesn't consider it a separate country. The
borders imposed on the Middle East after WW1 were totally
artificial and separated people who had traditionally been
linked.
But yes, Hafez Assad is a psycho.
and perhaps you are not -- Hafez Assad, let us say, is a
megalomaniac, a modern-day Nero. His actions seem quite
rational to me because power is his game, and his
personality type is most dangerous when he feels that he is
threatened. But, like all of us, he is mortal and will pass
from the stage in time. So one must ask: after Assad, who?
If I understand 'from Syria' correctly, he is unhappy that I
referred to Assad's Hama opponents as Muslim extremists; he
feels this lead to a stereotype of Muslims. The fact is,
these were Muslim Brotherhood, who are Muslim extremists or
extremist Muslims, I don't know if there is a difference.
These were people who would use violence to impose
extremist Islamic rule on Syria. Criticizing them does not
constitute a criticism of Muslims, any more than criticizing
Jerry Falwell (an extremist US protestant preacher)
constitutes criticism of Christians.
.
Not everyone in Syria is Muslim, by the way, there is a
significant Christian population. (There used to be lots of
Jews but most were driven out; a handful are left.)
.
But anyway, the Muslim Brotherhood and other extremists feel
that religion is a political matter and who want to
establish dictatorial governments based on religion (as in
Iran). There is no question that such people were running
things in Hama and beginning to challenge Assad.
.
Does his excuse Assad's wholesale slaughter in Hama? Of
course not. I have been very clear about what I think of
Assad. But the alternative, which is rule of Syria by the
Muslim Brotherhood, would be far, far worse.
.
Some book written many centuries ago (I don't care which
book) is an absolutely ridiculous basis on which to run a
country. If you want to run your life according to one such
book, that's another matter, that's your business.
.
PS After Assad, le deluge. No question.
Well it seems I was completely wrong and you actually don't
have any clue at all. Too bad, and you actually travel in
the Middle East. I AM FROM SYRIA AND YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE
WHAT WAS REALLY GOING ON IN HAMA. JUST WHAT YOU HAVE
OFFICIALLY READ. First, the Muslim Brotherhood was about
politics not MUSLIM EXTREMISM. It was about disagreeing
with the dictatorship of Hafez Assad. It was about not
liking the brutality, or having people disappear. Don't you
get it at all. No, I can see you don't. And the Christian
minority is that a MINORITY. So it had nothing to do with
Islam and I hardly think Hafez was fighting against the
development of an Islamic state but to keep power. You
honestly have no clue what is really up in Syria. I can't
believe that in a Muslim majority state, just because
someone is opposition and muslim they MUST want to
establish some extreme state. That is so stereotypical.
You are so wrong and the majority of Syrians would welcome
relief from the present govt. But they would never tell
you that because you have a big mouth and would probably
accidentally tell the wrong person and get them killed or
disappeared. But you don't know that do you. The only ones
who may discuss it with you would be the Mukabarah and they
would let you trash the govt. then follow you to see who
your friends are and then you can't imagine the problem
this would cause them. Also I can't believe the cheap shot
you made at the Holy Koran. You can have your own views
but don't insult others. Just because you think it is
stupid to have religon doesn't mean others agree. That was
a pathetic cheap shot. Many people can't imagine life
without that book and think it is strange NOT to have it in
your life. Many Syrians and hardly extremists. Too bad for
you that the one thing you couldn't take from the Middle
East is respect religon and for others. I know you will say
that the people are wonderful but the govt.'s aren't.
Well what do you think makes the people so wonderful. I
honestly hope you find peace in your life because it is so
sad that you can't have any kind of faith.
but I'm oppressed anyway right?
I know (from the press...) that the "Muslim Brotherhood" in
Egypt is a murderous terrorist organization that has
attacked foreigners in a few occasions. I'd like to ask
you (as a person that obviously knows what he's talking
about): Is it true? And what about the "Muslim Brotherhood"
in Syria? I would like to know the accurate facts.
(No disrespect to Islam intended, Just an innocent
question).
The "Dictionary of the Middle East" by Dilip Hiro (published in the UK by Macmillan; in the US by St Martin's Press) has quite good, clear and concise impartial factual information on the history and background to the Brotherhood, where it came from, what it stood and stands for, and the wide divisions in philosophy, aims and methods that have developed between the branches of the Brotherhood in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Palestine (Gaza and the WB) and Jordan.
.
Sorry for butting in; back to you all.
I am sorry that I upset you by not thinking what you think I
should think. To repeat, the Muslim Brotherhood is a
murderous group. Regrettably, there is a minority of Muslims
who think killing your opposition takes you to heaven. And
you wonder why people have a bad opinion of Islam.
Yes, I've been almost everywhere in the ME. But that doesn't
mean I have no opinions about what's good and what's bad
about the ME. Islam has many wonderful aspects but some
really wacky, primitive aspects (like two women being needed
to counter the testimony of one man) and some violent
aspects. There's a lot of junk in the Bible too but most
Christians reject the literal interpretations; Christian
thought has evolved with time as a result of theological
debate that hadn't yet occurred at the time the books of the
Bible were written. But a Muslim has to obey the Koran as
originally written or be accused of apostasy (which means
he/she can be killed...murder of apostates is authorized by
the Koran, hence the Rushdie issue for example). Another
tragic aspect of Islam is the lack of a distinction between
private and public life. In your own message you make no
such distinction. If Syrians are nice people because they
are Muslims (I doubt it, since most Syrians I saw totally
ignored the calls to prayer!) that's fine and I have no
problem with individuals following whatever personal beliefs
and pratices they choose. The question is, should
governments be run on the basis of religious strictures
originally designed for sixth-century Bedouins? No, and
that's whay I am grateful for people like Assad, Arafat,
Mubarak, even Saddam Hussein. The alternatives to them are
worse.
It is easy to say that when you live in a country that you
don't have to worry about these things. Believe me I am
holding back from fear. You have no clue, really what I am
talking about and to be grateful to any leader that kills
his people or makes them live in terror is shameful. You
have no clue what the Muslim Brotherhood was about and if
you did you would be so ashamed of what you have said. Just
because they are Muslim does not make them necessarily a
worse threat. And to group Assad, Arafat and Hussein and
Mubarak in the same category just because they are Muslim
is stereotypical. And the Koran was designed for all
humanity not 6th century bedouins that is why it is the
fastest growing religon in the world. And in the US where
there is freedom of religon. Apparantly there are a lot of
people who feel religon is necessary. Have you ever even
tried a religon or is it hard for you to have faith? Is
it uncool? Is it to hard to walk a straight path? Is it
hard to say no to things that aren't good for you? Do you
have the strength? If you honestly believe religon is just
a book then I am truly sorry for you. You have missed out
on one of the finer pleasures in life. I follow Islam and
everyday I learn something new in my religon that is
amazing in its sense. Religon is so much more than reading
a book, it is also about self discovery and finding the
best path to walk that brings you the most happiness. So
many people know this and I wish it for you. You can read
the same sentence a thousand times and then one day, due to
your personal growth all of a sudden you understand what
was meant and it makes sense ..and then you learn to have
faith. The more something works for you the more you
embrace it and the more you learn that even if you don't
completely understand the advice at that time.. based on
past experience you have learned that it is good to listen
and follow it. You will eventually see that it is right.
Religon is like a wise older person who has been there and
you know it, you learn from them and their experiences.
This is how faith grows, it is not just blind. You have to
learn it. I wish for you that one day Allah will open a
door and you can see. Obviously he is knocking or you
wouldn't be all over the ME and have learned to love the
culture.
I don't really want to get wrapped up in this debate, but I would like to point out to you that many of the things you say about Islam are actually plain wrong, and many of the others are fact-snippets taken wildly out of context and which require explanation which you neglect to give. I would urge you, should you care about this whole thing, to pick up an explanatory book or two on Islam (John L. Esposito's "Islam: The Straight Path" is impartial and quite outstanding, as is Ruqaiyyah Maqsood's "Teach Yourself Islam"), both of which can, in a day's reading, overturn many of the Western media cliches about Islam and also help provide some background to your current beliefs about the religion. Equally, the Muslim Brotherhood has many nuances of philosophy which a brief investigation can draw out to stand as perspective to the inexplicability of their violence. Otherwise, thank you for taking the trouble to debate so vigorously.
Name one thing I said that was wrong.
There are indeed many books that attempt to whitewash the
unsavory aspects of Islam. And indeed most Muslims do not
practice these unsavory aspects (or I, as a Hindu
polytheistic idol-worshipper would not have survived my
trips to ME). But they are ther. Again, name one of the
supposed 'many things' I said that was wrong.
As for 'from Syria', I don't have any response to her
religious fervor; she's clearly not all there and I'm sorry
I attempted to engage her in rational dbate.
I don't really want to get wrapped up in this debate either,
but your Christo-centrism (I made up that word) bothers me
(post #16). Not even because you see one religion as
superior to another (which is your right) - but because of
your apparent lack of critical understanding of your own
religion. Most of what we accept in organized religion is a
long process of human interpertations of religious documents
- whether it's church practices, the Talmud or Islamic
interpretations. We may find some practices performed in
some Islamic countries offensive - but remember, many of
these are not stated in the Koran, they are the result of
human interpretations over the centuries, as shown by the
fact that many practices are not static over time, nor are
they common to all Islamic countries. My point here is that
nothing (or very little) in the Koran itself makes it
offensive to the sensibilities of followers of any other
monotheistic religion. I mean, lets look at Christianity
for a minute. What part of the Bible directed the Crusaders
to slaughter Muslims and Jews during the Middle Ages? What
part of the Bible directed Catholics and Protestants to
slaughter each other during the 30 Years War? What part of
the Bible tells someone to shoot abortion doctors? These
are all things which have been committed in the name of
Christianity - but shouldn't make someone decide that
Christinanity is a religion of murder, should they?
(Additionally many Christian practices have been decreed by
mere mortals - that Jesus is the son of God, that women
can't be priests, etc., etc., etc....) Look, this line of
argument could apply to just about every organized religion
- my intent is to point out that religious understanding
doesn't come from observing news stories at a particular
point in time. It is only possible from a thoughful (and
critical) look at religious texts and
interpretations/developments throughout the ages.
I woud urge you not to denounce an entire religion just
because of what you happen to be observing (at the surface)
in particular countries, at a particular point in time.
R. Kalia - Oops, your comment in Post #16 made me think you
were Christian. Anyway, just change "lack of critical
understanding of YOUR religion" to "lack of critical
understanding of Christianity."
Check out the old testament sometime. There are all sorts
of passages where the god of that book instructs his people
to kill everyone in a city they've just conquered(also at
his command). There are also instructions over who you can
kill and who you can enslave when you capture a city.
Anyone who believes this nonsense about divine revelation
is a danger to other believers, and rational people who
live by common sense.
My point is that, given a question about what to do, most
Christians (and most Hindus, Buddhists etc) don't say "What
does it say about this exact matter in the book?" They say
"What do I think is right given the general principles
of morality I've learned from my religion?" Well, Islam
works differently. The rules are derived from a literal
reading and interpretation of a specific book, and the
'logical' justifications may be attempted afterwards
(like "Two women must testify against one man only
because everyone has things they're good at and things
they're bad at, and women just aren't so good with facts,
but that doesn't mean we think any less of them, for example
they're better than men at housekeeping") but the core
reason is that the Koran says so. (If the Koran says
nothing, the next test is what was done by Muhammad or in
Muhammad's time, whether it makes sense or not---the Taliban
insist that everyone should have beards because the Prophet
had a beard. The Prophet also owned land in Arabia, but
strangely, Muslims aren't required to own property in
Arabia.)
.
Except for a few fundamentalists and cultists, no major
non-Muslim religion believes in submission (that is the
literal meaning of the word Islam). Islam is not just
another religion; it is a very different kettle of fish than
the other major religions. This doesn't justify the many
prejudices that exist, but it is important to understand
Islam as it is and not just a rose-tinted PC version of it.
Your unwillingness to explore reading around a subject you claim to know very well, and your (excuse me) bull-headed confrontationalism makes me shy away from locking horns with you. If you are capable of rejecting the knowledge of specialists out of hand, then I am not prepared to debate the rights and wrongs of Islam, or the truth or falsehood of what you said, with you. What I would like to ask you, though, is since you seem to have embarked on a solo hatchet-job on the spiritual beliefs of around a billion people, what do you propose to do with your insight? Disavow people of their religion? Lobby for increased intolerance of Islam worldwide? Establish information centres where non-Muslims can learn just how different Islam is from Christianity, Judaism and the rest?
.
Or are you simply going to stand alone, a bad-tempered doom merchant, dismissing impartial scholarship as a whitewash, rejecting Muslims' own heartfelt statements of faith as their being "not all there", and repeating ad nauseam your own claims as to what Islam stands for? Just interested how you see your role in all this, and trying to keep it all cool and sensible.
...of the "many things (I said) that are just plain wrong".
No one else has listed any. Why do you think that stating
the facts is improper or aggressive?
Are you the one in your group that always is negative?
Always the partypooper? The miserable person who can't see
anything good in anything? The one EVERYONE wants to be
around cause he is just so much fun? I can't believe that
just because I sound so sincere in my faith that I am just
out there. You just flat out dismissed anything I had to
say because you decided I was one of those fervernt Muslims
and thus could not see reason for anything. No you are
wrong, I learned my faith. Just because I was born into
Islam doesn't mean that I didn't have to learn and study my
religon. No one made me feel my faith. I saw excellent
examples around me and that made me want to learn. SO here
is where you are wrong - you state: The rules are derived
from a literal reading and interpretation of a specific
book and the logical justifications may be attempted after
but the core reason is the Holy Koran says so. I beg to
differ, in Islam we have schools of thought where very
learned people who study the Holy Koran pass judegements
and rulings on different situations based upon what they
believe is the intention of the Koran. Schools of thought
can and do differ and many times both views are equally
correct. It is then up to the person to decide which they
believe to be correct or the best. Some may decide that one
school is correct and follow those rulings exclusively,
however the majority consider several opinions on any
subject and decide which is correct for themselves. On may
subjects there are consensus opinions by all of the
scholars. This is what makes Islam so incredible. It is a
continuing education. It is hardly literal. You too often
confuse politics with religon R. Kalia, believe me they are
so different. Allahu Akbar.
To choose between the opinions of learned scholars rather
than decide on your own is not freedom of belief. And there
is no variation in opinion between different scholars on the
basic issues, like female witnesses (which Kalia mentioned),
eating pork (my favorite meat!), having four wives and
divorcing them by saying 'talak' three times, etc. It is
true that there are differences of opinion about
other matters, such as whether to kill Rushdie, whether
growing long beards is required, whether women have to be
totally covered except for eyeholes or the face and hands
can show, whether suicide bombing will take you to heaven,
etc.
Tell me a religon that doesn't prescribe a way of life! And
anyway the cholars give opinions not edicts, which is more
than you can say for the pope. We are free to chose one of
these thoughts or none at all and go with our own opinion,
which is ultimately going to happen anyway. The scholars
simply help clarify issues by giving opinions based upon
their knowledge and experience. This is used to help people
to decide on which couse of action is best and what the
Koran says is correct. If you can not see the value of
this, I am sorry, I for one find it extrememly helpful. As
for the rest- your differences statements are designed to
be inflamatory as well as stereotypical. And how do you
know what there is variation of opinion on and what there
isn't? Are you an Islamic scholar? It takes many years and
much experience for you to be considered a scholar. Have
you actually compared different schools of thoughts and
different opinions issued on any of the subjects you
brought up?
I just want to say: the sky is blue.
How do you know the sky is blue? Have you studied this
issue? What are your qualifications? People study these
things for years. Don't make ignorant statements even if
they are true, you have no right to make true statements. If
everyone started thinking for themselves, where would we be?
It's one thing to iussue a fatwa against Rushdie, but we
can't issue fatwas against millions of people. This
freethinking business must be nipped in the bud.
and the dear old USA is funding the Kurd to unite against Saddam so Turkey is mad as hell at Syria.Whens it going to really blow up.Not too far away.everyone has a bitch with everyone in this region!
Please try to understand that human beings have always behaved in this way...some use religion as a vehicle for power and the ordinary people get hurt.It changes with time but is the same scenario, different countries, different people. Perhaps the challenge is to endevour to rise above this behaviour and try to live in peace and use what ever 'book' or spiritual system you find suits you most and practise tolerance of others beliefs and cultures.
Syria is a fine place. It's crime free. People seem happy.
So what's the problem ?
hi there.
i was reading the hot debate above, and now I'm more sure
than ever that I know nothing about Syria (I can't really
rety on israeli press, can I?).
so, 'from syria',if you feel the same about Israel, I would
like us to communicate through the web. No big politics, no
names if you don't want to.
what do you say?
Hi everyone,
I think it would be useful to clarify some points
discussed above:
- first, about the muslim brotherhood: before saying what
"was done to them", you should know what they have done to
syrian innocent civilians. The muslim brotherhood of the
early 80s used to blow up buses full of innocent
passengers, murdered many syrian intellectuals (doctors,
eminent university teachers, etc.)... Is this a modern
means of political opposition?????
- Second, the syrians are present in Lebanon to ensure
security to the lebanese people.. I think everyone knows
that Lebanon managed to get out, thanks to Syria, of a 15-
year dirty civil war that opposed religious militias, and
then the israeli invasion of Lebanon..... (By the way, did
you know that Lebanon and Syria (and others) were one
country before the Sykes-Picot treaty of 1921 ?)
- Third, Syria does not support terrorists against
Turkey, because Syria has no interest in doing so,
furthermore, Syria does not have the means (political and
economic) to arm and train a Kurdish movement in war for
over 14 years. On the other hand, the PKK is officially
recognized by most European countries (esp. Italy)... The
historical links between the Syrian people and the Turkish
people is deep and important, and there is no reason to
affect it !!
This is it, I hope I gave useful points to those who are
interested.
PS: Dear Brenda, the image given to Syria by the US is
exagerated, and in order to make a conclusion about a
country, you should investigate and collect information
from all sides to try to be fair and unbiased..
thats channeling into fighting ! Its oft quoted that
discussions on virtually any topic on the middle east seem
to turn out a full scale war, and in the meantime this
somehow seems to excuse the fact that people are suffering.
I dont care whether these people are Palestinian, or Syrian,
or Israeli for that matter, may I have the indulgence of
pointing out that when one cares for these things one gets
violence rammed down ones throat, and that this does not
excuse the inflicting of pain upon anybody.
Congrats to #34, I think thats an amazing post.
Boo all round to 'post moderns' who believe that cultural
relativism mean we should forget our hearts.
first thing i'd like to say assad is a very smart men. he
has knowledge of internal politics all over the mid-east.
about hte peace process, may i remind u that not only the
arabs see it as a trojan horse, but also the israellis.
there has been many bad blood between the israelis and the
arabs in past 100 years. too many jews were massacarred,
too many arabs were murderd. the want for peace is genuine,
the problem is the mistrust. the israelis r afraid of
giving back the golan hights, because then the syians will
one again be "above" us. the "monster in the heights" will
be back. from the golan an attack on israel is an easy
thing, and retaking the golan heights in case of war, as
the Yom Kippur was has proven costs too many lives. one
might call it paranoia, i would call it pasism. after all
who would ensure our safety during peace? the UN? the
americans? after, by the time they'll get here ther'll be
no one to protect.
i just have to comment that i'm sure that this views from
israel must be the alike from sirya and the rest of the
arab world. peace is a gamble... all or nothing.
and about getting assad back in line. why should he. i say
every country lives in it's own way, and as countless
revolutions have shown, if the people don't like the
goverment, they rebel!
also, who draws the line??? each person does as he sees
best, and i'm for it!!!
i'd just like to say that everyone in the middle east
fights with everyone else: jews with jews, muslims with
muslims, palestinians with palestinians, arabs with jews,
iraq vs. iran, turkey vs. kurds and sirya... hizballa,
plo, black september, eyal (extremist jews) amal and even
the americans. mideast politics r too acient and
complicated to be solved in one argument. in the mid-east
nothing is that simple!!
Since decades now Syria has been sheltering the highest
ranked nazi still to walk on this earth, the infamous SS-
general Alois Brunnner, who is responsable for the death of
350.000 jews or 5% of the total holocaust. This says enough
about this countries military regime, I think.
After spending 5 years studying Syria and a year living in
Damascus - Syria has got a lot going for it, not the least
standing up to Israel and the US. Sure, there are human
rights violations, and it's not a democracy, but Assad has
bought stability to Syria, and if people are not as poor
elsewhere... the only time I saw people asking for money in
Syria was during Eid. Most people in Syria get along with
large families and lots of different jobs all bring in a
little bit of income... Comparing Assad with other dictators
in the region is counter-productive, on a personal level he
is very approachable and cordial (not something I'd say
about Saddam), and his life story has been one of rags to
riches - quite impressive for a farmer's son from the hills
around Lattakia...
I have to agree with Christian and his comments regarding
Syria. Syrians may not have the political freedoms we enjoy
but they certainly have a better quality of life in many
other areas.
In my own country, I am appalled at the crime and the
general lack of good behaviour by many to other people -
especially older citizens. Syrians, by way of contrast, are
warm, friendly, polite and friendly and take care of their
old.
Travel to Syria (if you are thinking of it) is a very
worthwhile experience.
okay syria experts, what happens when Hafez Asad dies(he may
have lukemia,according to one source). Does Dr Bachir, the
son from Britian,rule automatically or is there is
struggle?and what about other influentials, like brother
Rifaat? where is the leadership future?
and the answer ..no one knows.
Bashar is only 34 at the moment, but is being groomed to
take over. If Assad were to die tomorrow, there would
prob. be a triumverate of Foreign Sec, Interior and Head of
Security running things. Rifaat does not seem to have much
of a foot to stand on, even if Hafez did die suddenly.
I think neutral that he probably has cancer of some kind,
but he is trying to hang on for as long as possible. Big
blow of course that Bassel was killed in that road accident
in '94....
Not..every Syrian I know was privately thrilled.
Well, given the fact that Bassel was seen as being
(relatively) uncorrupt and honest (compared with others),
and given the fact that's it not a democracy, you don't have
a choice, so the main problem with his death is the problem
of who will come after Assad. "Big blow" did not imply that
Bassel was a high quality candidate, but that he was a
certainty after Assad. Now it's much more complicated and
uncertain... So if you can live with Alawite domination,
then Bassel would have been a reasonable choice.
That Basel Assad had over 30 billion dollars stashed in
Swiss Bank accounts when he died? Did you know that he had
huge secret stockpiles of weapons hidden away? Did you
know that when he would walk into a restaraunt...people
would quietly leave so as not to draw his notice? Basel
was the SON of ASSAD and was every bit as ruthless.
Hopefully when assad goes..the people will fight for
democracy and there will be an uprising such as has been
seen when other dictators have been deposed. Hopefully.
Well - given the fact that Bassel was the son of a dictator,
what else can you expect, plus the fact is that the Alawite
dictatorship (or Ba'athist one if you prefer) is a reality
on the ground. I think it is extremly unlikely that there
will be an uprising after Asad dies, but that's just my
opinion...
one part of me says that things have relaxed enough lately
that maybe there won't be an uprising...but another part of
me says that there are people waiting for the chance. I
think that after Assad dies..one of the generals will take
over..not Assads son. This is the big question. No one
knows but everyone hopes that the Alawite regimes days are
numbered. When a new leader comes around in a
dictatorship, things have a way of unravelling. For
instance, right now there are many informers in the
government..neighbors who spy on neighbors. They do this
because they get special favors and treatment..if nothing
else but to live. This happened in USSR too. However,
when a new person takes over..all favors from the previous
ruler become ..not null but not necessarily owed or known
anymore. The new ruler is surrounded by people offering
help but is suspect of these people and tends to put his
"own" people in places of authority. It is very difficult
to transit a dictatorship. For the reason that a
dictatorship comes into being usually in armed
conflict..and that is the basis of power..it is very
diffictult to peacefully trasit the power status.
It is suspected that one of the generals or several may all
try to grab power and Assads son and his supporters will
fight causeing an internal war. At this point..as none of
these people have the support of the majority Syrian
people...they will all lose. Hopefully. This is the point
when informers get turned on by the population. As the
alawite regime is backed up by the alawite guard..when
these people go to fight..this group will be sorely split
up and thuus can no longer retain controll of the
population. Lets just hope there are people in place who
are ready for this and are pro-democracy as well.
to ..:
Bassel did NOT have anything (not a penny!) in swiss banks,
and I bet. This person specially was known for his honesty,
uncorruptibility and modesty (and his brother Bashar too).
If I am wrong, please prove it, and tell me where did you
get this information from, what are your sources? You know,
anyone can say anything, so do not try to play the smart
guy who knows everthing!
What is this 'alawite regime backed by the alawite guard'?
This is completely nonsense. There are no differences
between Sunni, alawites, shi'ites or any other sect in
Syria: they all are Syrians working for Syria. Thanks for
Assad this is true, like it or not, but this is hopefully a
fact: you can visit Syria to check it up by yourself. Assad
is a popular person in Syria, and you can compare him to
other Arab leaders to believe this (read modern history of
Syria).-- He is a respectful man too, and many world
leaders respect him for his clear policy and way of
thinking. They all agree that he is the most intelligent
president in the middle-east (even Israelis say it).
Christianity is the scourge of humanity, it is the worse
evil ever created. Fight it with all of your strength.
and to another one...if you don't know about the Alawite
regime of Assad in Syria then it is obvious you don't have
any clue at all about Syria. I was shocked unbeliveably
that you wrote this post. It is Funny actually. For your
information, Assad is Alawite and his people and guard
around him are Alawite mostly from the Latkia region. Where
he grew up. As for Basel being known as honest and
uncorruptable..he doesnt have to be corruptable in
Syria..they control everything and everyone. So what is to
corrupt...what by corruption you mean someone may take
bribes? He didn't have to he could demand anything and
noone and I mean no one except for perhaps his father would
dare to say no. I will agree witht he swiss bank part. ..it
may have been French Banks. I am not sure which but it is
one of the 2. Basel was FEARED by the people. People were
completely relieved when he died. You will probably not
hear to many admit this because everyone is afraid of
everyone and you just dont talk politics..even if you are
out of Syria. You never know who works for who and you
have to be careful of your family back home. But looks and
what you don't say can say as much as words.
Dear Hmm:
About '[Assad's] people around him are Alawite', let me
tell you that:
* the 2 vice-president (Khaddam and Masharqa) are Sunni
* more than 2 thirds of the ministers are Sunni
* in the one third left, some are Christians, and some
Alawites ( 2 exactly!!)
* the army is formed mostly of Sunni
To add to this Syria is not Lebanon: I mean by this that
the constitution does not reserve the 'seats' in the
ministerial cabinet, I repeat there are no differences
between the sects in our country: in Syria, 'religion is
for God, the state is for all' as the Arabic proverb says
it. You may be living with some beliefs, or complexes
surely about sects and religion, that Syrians do not have,
and the ones who had these complexes (they were very few)
have overcome them years ago. I think you are an extremist,
or maybe a low-educated person, and perhaps a terrorist of
the early 80's. I believe you know nothing about Syria, and
that you are not from Syria as you pretend. So I really
advise you to go read some more, for your own sake.
If you still do not believe me, I invite you to visit Syria
and see how life is going.
I repeat again for the 100th time: there is a great unity
among the Syrian people, THERE ARE NO DIFFERENCES RELATED
TO SECTS OR RELIGION IN SYRIA, and Syria is one of the few
Arab countries where there is a 'full liberty' as what
concerns religious beliefs.
By the way, Sunni, Alawites, Druz, Shi'ites are MUSLIMS
after all, unless you have another opinion (this is your
problem and complex as I mentioned earlier).
You are completely clueless. And I never said that there
were religious problems in Syria. I said that Assad
surrounds himself with Alawite's of which he is one. And I
guess this could be construed as religious differences
however, it is more about who is in power. If you believe
any differently about Syria you are the one who is
clueless. You don't believe I am from Syria, I don't care.
Do you honestly believe any of his ministers hold real
power. Assad IS the power in Syria. The ministers have
power over the people but not Assad. However he does place
token people to fill positions but they have no real power.
The army is formed mostly Sunni is because the population
is mostly Sunni and Military service is MANDATORY for males
you dumb****. The full Liberty you describe for religon is
not the issue. I said that Assad surrounds himself with
Alawites..not for religious purposes but because those are
the people he grew up with and that is his "clan" for want
of a better word. If you believe any different you are one
dumb ****. By the way, I am from Syria and I LOVE MY
country. I was there 2 months ago and I go every year. My
family is still there. But I am not going to deny what the
reality is in my country. If you think that Syrians find
everything rosy that is because they won't tell you diddly
because you are a foreigner and they wont say anything
political. Nobody talks politics in Syria unless it is
their brother and even then you are careful. However, the
government has nothing to do with how good of a time the
tourist will have. Damascus is great fun and you wont feel
the political problems.
If you don't know the difference between Alawites, Shia's,
Druz, Sunni, Suffi's, then you don't have a clue about
Islam either and you really are talking out of your A**.
This is not to say that these groups have problems in Syria.
Dear HMM, again:
I am afraid to say that you are contradicting your own
words, you claim I am clueless, well in my previous post I
gave you names and facts (about the ministers, army, etc.)
showing that Assad is NOT surrounded by his "clan" as you
defined it. Give me a single proof about the contrary, I
may believe you then. I told you last time that you have
some "complexes" about sects in Syria, and you deny this,
then how can you explain to me why you used repeatedly the
expressions "Alawite regime" and "Alawite clan"??? Fine, if
you don't have anything about sects, then it shouldn't be
any problem for you if the president was of that or that
sect, it wouldn't matter, would it?
I have a simple question to ask: if the president was of
the Sunni sect, and his cabinet was formed of Sunni (...),
could we claim that the regime is a Sunni regime, or that
the 'Sunni clan' was ruling Syria, it is nonsense.
As long as the president of Syria is a Syrian citizen,
working for the benefit of Syria, then whatever religion or
sect can he belong to with no harm (this is the Syrian
constitution).
By the way, if you really are Syrian, then believe me you
are a part of the small community that thinks the way you
do, and that have these opinions and thoughts (+complexes).
.
You said that I "don't know the differences between Muslim
sects", well, I don't know what conceit affects your
personality. It would be possible that I do not know
'everything', but I am sure I know more than you do, trust
me!
NB: Do not be insolent, be polite. This advice will
help you!
um, anybody know where i can get a good falafel in damascus?
Okay ladies, I need your help
I am planning a 10 to 14 day trip to sometime in the
next month in
Turkey,Burusa,Istanbul,Cappodocaia,Ephesus,Antalya etc.
Since I won't have much time and don't want to spend
what
time I do have constantly on the go, which place would
you
recommend? I need also some good hotels. Thanks for
your help.
Alison
Please, if you know more than me about Islam tell me about it. Do you know the prayers, (or will you go look them up then post them) hey please do, most of the pronounciations posted on websites are off anyway. So that is a dead giveaway. I can't believe that you say the Assad is working for the better of Syria. Assad is working for the betterment of himself only. He is a dictator that surrounds himself with alawites, especially in his personal guard. Any names that you mention as being Sunni or the rest are irrelevent because Assad controlls EVERYTHING is Syria. Do you not get this point? You quote the SYRIAN CONSTITUTION to me? That is Laughable.....ASSAD CONTROLLS EVERYTHING. If he has some Sunni ministers it doesnt matter. The reason I mention Alawite is not a religious thing really but more of a family/clan loyalty thing. They are his protection. Why do you think something like Hamma can happen? He CONTROLLS EVERYTHING!!! DO YOU NOT GET IT? And you say IF I am Syrian then I am in the minority in my opinions. NO actually I am not but you would never know because just about EVERY Syrian would NEVER tell you otherwise becasue they don't know you/or your sympathies. It would take a long time before they would open up to you, even in the west because we fear spies (and it does happen) that if we speak out to you all, even in the West our families could be in danger back home. DO YOU NOT GET THIS? PEOPLE SIMPLY DISAPPEAR!!!! Especially with your attitude I find it highly unlikely that anyone would confide in you. The ONLY reason I am doing it here is because I am relatively anonymous. Belive me, Wallahe, if you were sitting across from me, I would be agreeing with everything you say because there is NO WAY IN H*** that I would risk myself or my family to enlighten you. This is a FACT. Even the lonely planet guidebook says that if asked Most Syrians will simply say that Assad is a very clever man. This is nice and neutral.
Let me give you a story about Hamma. There are some people I know that are from Hamma. The day that this trajedy happened, they lined up people against a wall, there was a corner and they were lined against both walls. The Army started shooting along one wall, they then told the next wall, leave. On the first wall was a sister and her son, she threw herself over her 12 yr old to protect him, she died...and he still carries a bullet in his wrist. The brother of the lady was around the corner and was spared for simply this reason. Another brother disappeared, everything thought he had been killed or imprisoned. 10 years later the mother was in Canada visiting her children adn they were all at a Mosque. There was a visitor from a close country there and when he heard their last name he said, I have a friend with that last name In this other country!! They asked what his first name was and when they heard it, the mother just collapsed. The son had managed to escape there and had been living for the 10 years there. He did not even DARE to ever contact his family for fear of putting them in jeopardy. He could not even let them know he was alive. When they found out, they went through channels to get him to Canada where he now resides. His brother paid about a million dollars cash to the embassy in Iraq to get him out of there. The kind of people these are, the brother that paid this money, never told the brother in Iraq or even the mother, he just did what he had to do and that was it, money was not an issue. (Bribery to the embassy's is very common in the Middle East). To know these people and to know this story still sends chills down my back becasue I know what humble and hardworking people they are, mashaALlah This is just one of a million stories.
But for your information, if you just stay out of politics and are lucky enough to not live in a neighborhood where any type of opposition might be, then you can and will live a relatively peaceful life, inshaALlah. There really hasnt been any major political opposition in quite a while. Assad has brought stability politically to Syria but there is NO freedom in government. Believe me, I wish to Allah that it was as rosy as you say but the reality is that it is not. However, the average tourist should not feel these political tensions because as I said, most people just keep out of it and thus no tensions. InshaALlah. Go to Damascus, you will have a wonderful time, but you need to be aware of these situations so as to not put anyone you may know or meet in Danger. Do not talk politics with anyone while you are there. Chances are the only ones who will with you are Mukabarat (secret police) or informers. They are the ONLY ones who would dare. Even a casual statement that they dont even ask your opinion may be said just to see your reaction, a simple nodding in understanding that Assad is a dictator could be taken as a political statement. You will not suffer for this but someone you know might because they might connect that these people told you these things. The best thing to do is to say who? and then say...oh I don't know anything about the government here. Who did you say again? Oh yeah, I have heard that name, they say he is really clever man. And then let it go. And change the subject by asking something simple like the weather or something.
inshaAllah. You have my explanation and my words. If you discard what I say then you are only doing yourself a diservice. I hope that ego does not get in the way for you to understand what I am saying for I speak the truth. Maybe something you will never hear from another Syrian because of the fact that I am anonymous. Take it or leave it, it is up to you. If you feel the need to refute again what I am saying so be it. I would suggest to anyone reading this thread to take into consideration both view points and do your own research. Pick the one that you feel is correct. May ALlah guide me on the straight path. Ameen.
BRENDA, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE SYRIANS STOPED A 15 YEARS OF
CIVIL WAR IN LEBANON ??????
HAVE YOU BEEN TO SYRIA TO SEE HOW BUITEFUL IT IS ?????
IT MIGHT NOT BE THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, BUT SYRIANS
CAN DO AND GET ANY THING THEY WANT.
PLEASE DON'T TALK ABOUT ANY THING YOU HEAR IN THE WESTERN
MEDIA AND TRY TO MAKE SOME SYRIAN FRIEANDS AND SEE FOR YOUR
SELF.
AND NO, SYRIA DOES NOT SUPPORT THE KURDS, THIS IS WHAT THE
AMERICANS SAY.
AND ABOUT THE PEACE PROCESS, DIDN'T NETINYAHO STOPED IT
WHEN HE CAME TO POWER, IT WAS GOING VERY WELL BEFOR THAT,
WASN'T IT, OR YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT TOO.
um, I still want some good falafel in "dimashq"... nobody
wants to clue me in on where... hmmm...
you people are all too uptight and serious. get back to
travelling and away from debating.
Hi Blue or somebody else,
First Blue:
Thank you very much again for sending me to the Moroc
bookshop. My Iraq pupils are talking very well Dutch
nowadays. It's a pity they are still unsure if they can
stay here. It makes them very unsure.
I'm planning to go next summer to Syria.
Can anybody help me to see things what must be seen.
What about the hotels, are they similar as those in Turkey?
(Turkey was allright)Or must I carry a tent
What about transport, is it the same way as in Turkey
(Sort of Dolmustaxi?)
What about drinking a beer, is it impossible?
Any answer is very welcome and highly appreciated,
thanks in advance,
harry
(Blue: the telephone waiting times by worldonline are
reduced to 25 minutes, hehe)
I'm really a nice guy. And if you don't believe it I'll
stick you in front of a firing squad.