hi! I had many questions regarding western women and women
in general that live or travel in the middle east. I have
heard that domestic violence against women by their arab
husbands have increased including even if she is western. I
will be going to Saudi this summer and I heard that the
male who is attracted to me can fix it so I couldn't leave
the country. I trust him, but I am weary after the stories
I have heard. I would truellybe grateful for any help.:)
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What you hear is media hype. I am an American woman married
to an arab man. We have been together for 8 years. The
treatment of a woman in ANY society lays on how he was
brought up. If a man is a good moslem, then he will treat
you well. Islam clearly states that a man treat his wife
fairly and decently. She is in no way destined to be a bare
foot and pregnant, punching bag who lives by every word of
her husband. A man can be good or bad no matter where he is
from. An arab or Moslem man is in no way more prone to this
henious behaviour than anyone else. If he is truthful and
honest, then you have nothing to fear. Islam is a wonderful
way of life. Arab men can be very generous and caring.
A man should respect his wife as he does his mother.If he
does not, then he is not a good moslem and person. Arabia
is great place to live. I loved it and wish to return soon.
USA woman gives a good and thoughtful account of her
experience. Many statement are definitely correct. But I
assume you should be aware of the fact that you're stepping
into a completely different dimension if, as I assume
you're westerner and not muslim. A good knowledge of
islamic traditions, culture and law are a must in order to
take a sound judgement and prepare yourself for what is
possibly ahead of you.
It's true that a muslim man has a religious duty to treat
his wife well (and I believe usa woman found one of them)
but how many of them are ready to forget this aspect of
their religion for their own interests (don't misunderstand
me, many non-muslim are just the same).
Also not to forget is, as many people who know the middle
east will probably testify, that many arabs who study
abroad change completely attitude (under the influence of
the family) once they're back home.
Can USA woman swear that saudi men are, in general,
thrustworthy and that their interpretation of the Koran
(according to the Hanbali school) is as respectful of women
as, say, the Hanafi one?
What to say of the freedom of religion?
Yours is a though question for which there can't be a
definitive answer. I will never tell you don't do it but I
definitely issue a stern warning: try to do your best to
get to know what you're heading for and don't jump into
unknown waters. Many had only good experience but many had
to bear the grunt for the rest of their life.
And let me add, finally, that the above consideration apply
if you want to marry a christian, a hindu, a scintoist, a
jew or a plain kafir.
Good luck
Ok, for one thing. Western society and Islam are two
different things. Islam is a religion and is seperate from
culture. For exsample- veiling ones face in Arabia is a
custom and is considered excessive or unnecessary. But
strong traditions and culture are what keep things like
that alive. I read that Latino men are super macho,
egotistic, babies who believe image is the world. Or the
steriotype that Asians are overahcievers...and so on.
Looking at American men one would think that there are far
worse problems. Look at how many battered womens shelters
there are, how many restraining orders are issued every
year, the fact that 50% of marriages in America are doomed
for divorce, look at the styles of clothing that our youth
are wearing now- nothing more than sleazy and revealing. I
am not bashing America becuase I am American- born and
raised. Because of the media in this country it is hard to
NOT form a negative opinion of certain peoples or
religions. Just becuase a man is an Arab does not mean that
he is a tyrant and wife beater. A moslem is expected to
live his life according to the Koran. The Koran states
every aspect of life and how it is to be dealt with. If a
man chooses to ignore his islamic duties, then that is a
flaw within him and shows a lack of respect for his deen.
Certian aspects of islamic life are to ensure things are
harmonious. People think that because a saudi woman cannot
drive that she is imprisoned in her home. People think
becuase a Saudi woman cannot just run out of the house and
run about town without an escort is some kind of crime.
These are all part of Sharia law that ensures that things
that plague western society do not occur in their society.
Cheating spouses, drug abuse, pre-marital pregnancy,
abortion, AIDS, and similar things are not as rampant in
the MIddle East because they fear god more than all else
and thus they obstain from doing wrong. But there are a
handful of moslems who are bad seeds. Wether it be their
upbringing or just in their blood, they do wrong and
disgrace the name of Islam. So to put a label on arab men
as some kind of monsters that are too dangerous to be with
is stupid. I have lived in Arabia and know that life there
is harmonious. It is a mans duty to support his wife. He
must provide for her and in turn, she must do her part as
well. The west thinks we non-working moslem women are
barefoot and pregnant slaves who are abused and neglected.
I am sorry- youre wrong. The plain fact is, is that the
majority os moslem women are content with their lives. My
religion gives me the freedom to be a mother and wife
without having to worry about some stuffy and stressful job
holding me back. But islam also gives me the right to work
if I choose and I have the Islamic right to keep 100% of my
earnings. Yet my husband still has to provide for me
because that is his duty. In arabia I was happier than I am
in America. I drive, my job is my family, I love my husband
and we have a stable life. How many western people can
truly say that they are content? I do not knock wester
ways, but being an American, with American parents of
Scottish dencent, I see no happiness in the lives they have
created for themselves. With 5 divorces between both
parents, another soon from my sister, past drug and alcohol
abuse in our family, 1 baby girl given up for adoption by
my sister, and the financial disaster that is in each of
their lives, I thank god that I have a husband who supports
me, who I support, and the stability we have created in our
lives. We have no secrets, we have no skeletons in our
closet, we have no debt, we have no enemies, and we still
enjoy life to the fullest. I am not saying my life is
indicative of every arab/american match. But once you
overcome the differences in religion and culture- then you
can mesh together and develop a lasting life together.If
you are always going agianst the others ways, then yes- you
are destined to seperate. Yes, I am a moslem, but I chose
it for myself after years of study and finding no
understanding or stability in my christian and agnostic
family.My husband had no say either way. Also bear in mind
that almost all that have been to arabia have nothing but
good things to say about it. And most of those married to
arabs have a good lfe. I feel for those who have entered
into a relationship with a man who does not regard his
religion, what ever it may be, as he should. I am sorry if
this man or woman has been tainted by a western society and
forgotten their roots. If he is mean or bad to her it is
becuase he is a bad person and not because of his religion
or race. Also bear in mind that not all arabs are moslems
and not all moslems are arab. There are equally good and
bad peoples in all religions and races. No ONE race or
religion is particulary more corrupt or bad than any other.
So bear in mind ALL steriotypes. Not all Asians are over
acheivers,not all arab men have 4 wives, not all Mexicans
are lazy, not all blondes are stupid, not all red heads are
feisty, not all arabs are fanatics, not all blacks are
poor, not all French are snobs, islam is not based on
extremism, not all Jews are cheap. You get it? All of what
I am saying is what the media makes you beleive. Unless you
have lived the lives of any particular race, religion or
culture- then do not comment negatively agianst them. As
the year 2000 approaches I would hope that people begin to
realize that we are all different in ever way except one.
We are all human and bleed the same color blood. What
surrounds us makes us who we are, but we have the option to
decide if we go good or bad. So do not tell anyone anything
about other races or religions unless you know first hand
about it. If you just read an article or saw a movie, then
you are in no way an authority on the subject. As an
American woman who immersed herself in the Islamic and arab
society almost as if I were one, I can freely say what I
know and how I see things. I am not the leading authority
or a know it all, but I have a little more room for comment
that someone who gets their info from the over done, over
hyped message of the western media. Bear in mind also that
all cultures, especially of the middle east have had the
truth altered so much that it got twisted into something
sinister and degrading.
This is Saudi Arabia we are talking about, not "any Arab
country". For a western woman in Saudi Arabia, life is VERY
different from what she is used to and the laws are also
very different.
I was in Riyadh only a few days, but that was enough for me
to realize that I couldn't live my life in Abbaya and scarf.
Knowing that merchants could refuse me entry to their shops
merely because I was female - even if I was "properly
covered" was also something I wasn't very good at tackling.
I don't know the exact laws in Saudi, but I do know that
husbands have very much say in whether their wives can
travel outside the country (maybe even within the country).
Dear "Wondering", I suggest you go visit him and see what he
is like "at home". There definitely are many very nice Arab
men, but the Saudi men have a bit of a reputation for being
male chauvenists. There is really no way for you to tell if
this man will treat you well or not, even if you have seen
him in his home surroundings. A couple of things I would do
is A) take a female friend with me when I go to visit and B)
never let my passport out of my sight while I am there.
These are simple precautions that can be very important IF
things should not go well.
Best of luck! :-)
YOU MUST BE AN AMERICAN, HERE IS MY TIP TO YOU, DO NOT GO,
PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND WHO SAYS STUFF LIKE THAT SHOULD NEVER
LEAVE HOME, YOU PEOPLE ARE PATHETIC.
I AM AN AMERICAN AND I AM ASHAMED.
So you should be, if that's the best information/advice you
can offer!
I think that visitors to Saudi have to leave their passport
with their visa sponsor, and their exit visa (yep, an exit
visa) must be approved by the sponsor as well. If your
sponsor doesn't want you to leave, you're pretty much
stranded. I don't know how common this is, but it's possible
under Saudi law.
I read recently that your passport is your ONLY proof of
legal permission to be in Saudi Arabia - if you are a
visitor. I guess residents get ID cards. Anyway, therefore
you should always keep it with you if you are a visitor. As
far as I know, penalty for not having ID/residency
permit/visa on you is jail and I have heard it happened to
someone walking across the road to a shop and leaving his
permit in the apartment. Maybe just a nonsense story.
For expat residents in Saudi, they need an exit visa
everytime they want to leave the country - granted with
permission of the sponsor.
The sponsorship thing means that a resident of the country
takes responsibility for your behaviour while visiting. No
non-local can visit without a sponsor and I would imagine
it's not too difficult for a sponsor (especially a well
connected one) to prevent your exit if they wanted to. The
problem the original writer has is to determine how
trustworthy her sponsor has. Unfortunately, if it turns out
that he is not, and she discovers that once in Saudi Arabia,
then she may be in for a nasty time of it. Discussion of
different cultural values etc etc misses the original point.
There's a film called "not without my daughter" which is
supposed to be a true story. It's worth a look. It gives a
contrasting view to that held by usa woman.
Husbands do have a lot of control over their wives movements
- I think in Saudi, a woman has to get permission of husband
or father to exit country. Fine if husband is a good one,
not if he isn't.
Firstly, Not Withouth my Dauther (the story of Betty
Mahmoody) is about IRAN, not Saudi. If you want to read
horror stories about Saudi, "Princess" is the book to read.
Secondly, the FIRST thing she should do when she arrives in
the country might be to contact her national embassy and let
them know she is there (register).
Stuff talking about the rights and wrongs, to stereotype or not to stereotype... it's your life - it's a risk - only you can decide - I personally would never give a man SOLE charge of my life - he'd have to move somewhere else!! And yes it is sole charge - the decision to leave the country is up to him, the decision to cover up or not to cover up is his...
Bon chance - cos you're gonna need it!
Also remember, arab women have lived like this for a very
long time. They are raised in the traditions and it is
completly normal to them. Having read articles on Saudi,
many Saudi men feel insulted that they must sign for or
speak for their mothers and other female members. Remember
Saudi is an absolute Monarch, so it is the monarchy that
has the say in how the Islamic laws are inplimented or
translated into the society. One man was particulary
insulted at having to sign for his mother of 45years old
for her to board a plane to Europe for medical services.
Having stated that if a women is capable of raising several
children on her own after her husbands death, that she
should be capable of traveling independently. So even
though Saudis accept their ways as the norm, even men do
not accept some of them. Also bear in mind that certian
things are done to ensure nothing that would cause
instability in the family unit. Also just becuase we in
America may feel that their ways are unjust or strange,
doesnt mean that they do to them. As far as that dreaded
movie is concerned, as even Betty Mahmoody has said- some
events of the movie are dramatized. Real events were
changed for the Hollywood effect. Like it was really winter
when she went throught the mountians when she escaped Iran.
Iran is a persian country with very different customs than
most of the mid east. Also Shiites are very different than
sunnis. They are more extreme than sunnis and follow the
quran to the literal letter without much regard for modern
society. Islam does embrace the movement twards modern
life. Mr. Mahmoody is an individual- not a representative
of the whole middle east. Saudis live a very structured
life. Very organized and clean although somewhat spoiled.
So before you knock someone elses culture and society,
think that these are real people and have real feelings.
They have families and jobs and lives. Faith and culture
differ but they are not barbarians or monsters. They do
not kill babies or murder their friends. They are real
people who just happen to be different than me or you. So
before you go quoting some over dramatized movie or book,
remember- sometimes the truth is altered in order to make
the story more interesting. Unless you actually get on a
plane and go to a particular place I do not think you have
room to judge a place just becuase you saw a movie or read
a book. Didnt your mother ever tell you not to believe
everything you read or saw. First hand knowledge is more
reality than second hand. By the way, why does everyone
what to go to Saudi so bad? Just because they dont want
everyone treading through their land doesnt give you the
right to trash them for it. If I was a Saudi I wouldnt want
every traveler trashing their way through my country. They
have every right to protect their nation and people.
Who is the "you" that you are lecturing here?
Well Agian, as far as the reputation of saudis worldwide, I
can tell you that, right or wrong, it is put down by nearly
every person who has been working there. And this is a
first hand experience.
They don't need any help in trashing their country 'cos
they'll manage quite well themselves alone. Go on a trip to
the desert in the outskirts of any big city and you'll
realize why.
Having said that, one thing is trying to save your
environment and your traditions (americans are doing
whatever is needed to protect the people!) another is apply
draconian laws and be intolerant toward any other believe,
culture or tradition. If you've been to Oman you know what
I mean.
of mentioning the film is that it is about a couple - Arab
man and western woman - and what happens when they go for a
short (2 weeks?) trip to his home country. He was apparently
trustworthy, model father/husband etc in the USA. She was
reluctant to go to Iran but finally went. She was restricted
in her movements by husband and family, passport was taken,
and worse. Eventually she escaped (rather than left as a
normal visitor) - with her daughter - back to the west.
The film addresses the concerns of the original poster even
though it is set in Iran. I don't expect Saudi would be an
awful lot different if a husband/sponsor wanted to restrict
their wife's movements.
As for the lecturer, you haven't said anything that answers
the original question. Try again.
As was pointed out, the film takes "artistic liberties". So
if you want to read a horror story, read the book.
Nonetheless, I think that nobody can base their decisions on
the experience of one person 20-odd years ago. Saudi is a
fascinating country in many ways, and Wondering should go,
but take more precautions than she would if she were going
to, say, Spain. A lot more precautions, because the
consequences for mucking things up are rather higher in
Saudi.
That book is a bunch of garbage. The actions of that Iranian
man (Iranians are not Arab) if true, were obviously wrong,
but Mahmoody tended to exaggerate about the conditions in
Iran, from everything regarding the weather to the way that
Iranians eat. As an Iranian, I am appalled at the way she
portrayed Iran, because it certainly is not true the
generalizations that she made about our culture. Personally,
I know many, many American and European women who live in
Iran and are perfectly happy, as well as Western women who
visit Iran with their husbands periodically and look forward
to visiting the country.
A spent a whole lot more time than 2 weeks in Arabia.
MONTHS- not days. I LIVED there. We own a home there and
lived there as citizens. We work and life as we would
anywhere else. I cannot believe the movie "not with out my
daughter" is still being used as some kind of exsample or
as a respresentation of life in arabia or persia. Being
married to an arab and having a normal and decent life is
not abnormal as compared to the women of arabia or others
in the same relationship as I am in. I cannot seriously
believe that people are actually so easy influenced, that
they fall for the lies and stretched truths as they do
here. Can you actually tell me that you believe everything
in print? For all we know she could have been a bitter
wife who after an unfortunate child custody fight, that she
slandered the Iranian people in order to get back in some
sick way against where her husband was from. Anyone who
comes from a bitter situation may alter the truth in order
to do more damage. If the Saudis reacted poorly to you it
may have been your fault. Because most normal balanced
humans do not treat another human badly unless the other
gives reason for due cause. So in other words, you may have
deserved the treatment you recieved. Now some people are
mean out of human nature. But to desecrate all of arabia or
persia out of your own personal ignorance is childish. To
label all people as good or bad, or superior or insuperior
is proof that no matter how many thruths are revealed, a
person can be blinded by their own ignorance. I hardly
believe a person can dis the whole middle east becuase of
one stupid over dramatized hollywood movie produced by jews
and produced on jewish lands in Palestine! Dont believe me-
read the middle section about filming the movie in the
black and white photos section of her book. Also read- for
the love of a child and see that the problems of custody
after divorce is not indicative of Arabia or Persia. Read
the Quran and see what the reality of islam is. How it
spells out all the rights of the people of islam and why
moslems are happy with their lives. Mr Mahmoody may have
been bad, but he chose to be that way. A person can choose
to be a good moslem or a bad one. Islam DOES NOT make you
bad. So dont use islam or race as an excuse for ones
personal behavior.
Please please consider this very carefully. It is a scary
proposition, not ever being able to reenter your country.
And yes, I'm sure you're utterly trusting of him, but as a
poster above mentioned, get him on his home turf and you
can never be completely certain. He may even justify (to
you and to himself) and restrictions he deems it necessary
to put on you, thinking it's for the good of you, or of the
marriage, etc. He knows it'll be his call, what you do, and
if you ever go home.
If I were you, I would not even risk it. It's too large of
a stake.
Good luck.
Megan
"not ever being able to reenter your country."
Where on EARTH did you get that idea??!! If she brings a
friend, keeps her passport and makes sure to notify the
embassy she is there, even if he turns out to be totally
crazy (which he most likely isn't) things will sort
themselves out!
Another tip - get a GSM phone that has international roaming
deal with Saudi. That way, you aren't dependent on someone
to make phone calls.
There is no reason to EXPECT this man to be a maniac - but
since men do have much more power there than most places, it
is wise to take precautions. That's all I am saying.
Way to go Western woman! I want more of that diatribe, you
sure put a grin on my face today! But on to more serious
stuff - a reply. Maybe we can go for a record number of
posts, there's one somewhere with over a thousand.
I didn't say that I agreed or disagreed with the film. Nor
did I say it was an accurate or inaccurate portrayal of
events. It offers one person's point of view. The original
poster can decide on the relevancy of it.
My point is that IF her sponsor turns out to be a bad boy
(and the west does not have a monopoly on arseholes), then
in Saudi Arabia the laws of the country don't offer her the
same protection that she may be used to in her own country.
Embassy notification, GSM phones (good idea though) etc
notwithstanding. The laws of Saudi mean that a husband or
sponsor has control over the exit of wife or sponsee(?).
That's an answer to the original question. Am I wrong about
the law in Saudi then? Anyone? Hello?
Where'd you get the idea that Saudis had reacted poorly to
me? And maybe I'd deserved the treatment etc etc? I've had
no bad treatment from Saudis. And the only time I met one
was a very nice chap who pulled my car out of the sand when
I got stuck. At least I assume he was Saudi judging by the
number plates.
But hey, don't listen to me - I've never been to Saudi
anyway. Have a look at a hateful jewish satan-loving USA
western propaganda website full of biased opinions and
distorted facts. http://travel.state.gov/saudi.html.
One last thing. What's happened to the original poster? Look
what you did. Maybe she just did it for a stir. I'm bored
now. Someone please flame me properly.
http://travel.state.gov/marriage_to_saudis.html
Went to that "marriage" site and, appart from distracting
grammar/spelling, it seems to be quite accurate.
One thing I don't get, though. It says "Women are prohibited
from driving, riding a motorcycle, pedaling a bicycle, or
travelling by taxi, train or plane without an escort." My
female friend and I (female too) took taxis all over Riyadh
without getting into any grief. And it wasn't as if no taxis
would stop, either - we always got the first one we waved
down. (I won't go into language problems and 3 different
names for most locations). I suppose they might mean that
veiled women have trouble with this - or that husbands would
refuse their wives to take taxis with "non-family men".
Another thing, we were in "town" in Riyadh. On the
outskirts, it is apparently VERY difficult to get a taxi -
they just aren't around. (The article says "prohibited" then
goes on to say that many do it! A bit ambiguous, this!)
"In principle, all Saudi men must marry Muslims or converts
to Islam." Far as I know, Islam allows marriage of Muslim
men to both Christian and Jew women (people of the book).
Muslim women can't marry outside the faith, though, as the
faith follows the man of the relationship, according to
Islam.
"Many American mothers are frustrated by the dearth of
things to do with their children. Absent a driver, mothers
are cooped up at home with the children and, even with a
driver, there are few venues to visit." A western couple I
knew experienced that the mother was not allowed to enter
the playground her child was playing on. Luckily, the father
was present. Also, quite a few Saudi couples go to Bahrain
in order to enjoy a park as a whole family, as often women
have to stand outside and watch, or there will be women's
days and men's days at parks etc.
Otherwise, a very sobering article, I would say, and
although it takes a very dim view of things, based on what I
know of Saudi, it seems quite accurate.
SAUDI ARABIA
MARRIAGE TO SAUDIS
DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION IN THIS CIRCULAR RELATING TO THE
LEGAL REQUIREMENTS OF SPECIFIC
FOREIGN COUNTRIES IS PROVIDED FOR GENERAL INFORMATION ONLY.
QUESTIONS INVOLVING
INTERPRETATION OF SPECIFIC FOREIGN LAWS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED
TO FOREIGN COUNSEL.
The following information has been prepared by our Embassy
in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia to assist American citizen women in
understanding more fully the cultural and legal differences
they may face if they are considering marrying a Saudi man.
Our Foreign Service posts in Saudi Arabia estimate that
approximately 500 American women reside in the Kingdom with
their Saudi
husbands. Our Embassy is acutely conscious of the
dual-national marriages which fail, monitoring approximately
40 child custody cases
and instances of extreme marital discord and abuse. But
American women who are both happily and unhappily involved
in relationships
with Saudi men admit to having been appallingly ignorant of
the Kingdom and its culture prior to their betrothal. All
the women
interviewed strongly urged prospective wives of Saudi men to
investigate the Kingdom and meet the Saudi in-laws before
making a
commitment to a culture antithetical to the one in which
they were raised.
Survivors of dual-national marriages provide a checklist for
American women to consider prior to making a commitment to
living in the
Kingdom. The stories of those whose marriages have failed
underline the necessity of looking before leaping into the
cultural chasm that
separates Saudi husbands from their American wives.
The following advice and guidelines for women considering
marriage to Saudi nationals were culled from interviews with
women well
known to our Embassy for their embattled relations with
their Saudi spouses, from anecdotes from women whose
husbands are well
known to the Embassy because of their positions in
government or business, as well as conversations with women
happily or tolerably
married to middle and lower class Saudis.
PROFILE OF AMERICAN CITIZEN SPOUSES OF SAUDI NATIONALS
First, the American citizen spouse of a Saudi national is
with a handful of exceptions - always female. Saudi women
are prohibited from
marrying non-Arabs except with a special dispensation from
the King. (A dispensation is also required before a Saudi
woman may marry
an Arab who is not a citizen of the Gulf Cooperation Council
- i.e., Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman and the United Arab
Emirates). The
Embassy is only aware of four American men who are married
to Saudis. A few daughters of Saudi diplomats, raised and
educated
abroad, are also known to have received Kingly dispensation
for marriage to Europeans. Most Saudi women who are married
to
Westerners tend to reside abroad with their husbands.
American spouses fall into two broad categories: Those who
are married to well-off, westernized Saudis, and those who
are married to
not well-off and non-westernized Saudis. Both meet their
husbands when they are students in the U.S. The former tend
to maintain
homes in the Kingdom and in the West, they socialize with
other dual-national couples, they send their children abroad
for college
education (sometimes high school), travel frequently, and
while in the Kingdom have the luxuries of drivers, servants
and villas separate
from where the Saudi in-laws reside. Their husbands permit
them to appear before men to whom they are not related,
accept - if not
encourage their desire to find employment and generally do
not require them to veil fully (i.e., cover the fact with
one or more layers of
cloth) while in public. The women are allowed to travel
separately with the dual national children. The women may or
may not have
converted to Islam; their conversion may or may not be
sincere. These represent the minority of dual-national
marriages.
Most American women fall in love with westernized Muslim
traditionalists, leery of the West and its corrosive ways,
and eager to prove
their wives' conformity to Saudi standards. The husbands are
not Arab Princes" of western folklore; rather, they are part
of the vast
majority of Saudis who "get along" with the help of extended
family members and marginal expectations. Their American
citizen wives
are often from the South/Southwest (Where many Saudis prefer
to study), they have virtually no knowledge of Saudi Arabia
other than
what their fiances have told them, and do not speak Arabic.
When they arrive in the Kingdom, they take up residence in
the family's
home where family members greet them with varying degrees of
enthusiasm and little English. Typically, their only driver
will be their
husband (or another male family member), their social circle
with be the extended family, and they will not be permitted
to work or
appear uncovered among men to whom their husband is not
related. Initially, the American citizen spouse will be
almost entirely isolated
from the large western community that resides in the
Kingdom. Gradually, the spouses who survive, form a network
with other
American citizen women married to Saudis. The majority of
American citizen spouses fall into this category.
THE MYTH OF THE WESTERNIZED SAUDI
Inevitably, American citizen spouses characterize their
Saudi husbands during their school days in the United States
as being completely
"westernized"; drinking beer with the best of them, chasing
after women and generally celebrating all the diversities
and decadence of a
secular society. Women married to Saudis who did not fit the
stereotype of the partying, or playboy/prince, are careful
to point out that
their spouses nevertheless displayed a tolerance toward all
of these diversions and, particularly, toward them. In other
words, the
Saudi-American relationship virtually always blossoms in the
States, in a climate which allows dating, cohabitation,
children out of
wedlock, religious diversity, and a multitude of other
Islamic sins which go unnoticed by Saudi relatives and
religious leaders thousands
of miles away.
American citizen wives swear that the transformation in
their Saudi husbands occurs during the transatlantic flight
to the Kingdom. There
is the universal recollection of approaching Riyadh and
witnessing the donning of the black abayas and face veils by
the fashionably
dressed Saudi women. For many women, the Saudi airport is
the first time they see their husband in Arab dress (i.e.,
the thobe and
ghutra). For those American women reluctant to wear an abaya
(the all-encompassing black cloak) and for those Saudi
husbands who did
not make an issue of the abaya prior to arriving, the
intense public scrutiny which starts at the airport - given
to a western woman who is
accompanying a Saudi male is usually the catalyst for the
eventual covering up. Since the overwhelming majority of
American citizen
wives never travel to the Kingdom prior to their marriage,
they are abruptly catapulted into Saudi society. When they
arrive, their
husband's traditional dress, speech, and responsibilities to
his family re-emerge and the American citizen wife is left
to cope with a new
country, a new language, a new family, and a new husband.
Whether a Saudi has spent one year or eight studying in the
United States,
each must return to the fold - grudgingly or with relief -
to get along in Saudi society and within the family
hierarchy that structures most
social and business relations.
Social pressures on even the most liberal Saudi are
daunting. Shame is brought upon the entire family for the
acts of an American citizen
wife who does not dress modestly (e.g., cover) in public,
who is not Muslim, who associates with men other than her
extended relatives.
Silent disapprobation from family and friends is matched by
virulent public disapproval by the Kingdom's religious
proctors
(Mutawwaiin) and vigilante enforcers of the faith. Several
American wives, fearing the latest round of religious
harassment, have started
fully veiling; not to do so, they discovered, meant that
public squabbles with the Mutawwaiin who vociferously oppose
dual-national
marriages. The experience of all dual-national couples is
that voluntary and involuntary compromises are made or
simply evolve. The
sum of these compromises is quite often a life very
different than the one imagined and speculated upon in the
safety of the United
States.
WHAT TO EXPECT AND CONSIDER
Quality of Life
Life in a desert Kingdom which prides itself on its
conservative interpretation and application of the Quran
(Koran) requires that couples
talk about very basis lifestyle issues.
How cosmopolitan is the Saudi husband's family?
All American wives encourage prospective brides to meet the
Saudi family before arriving in the Kingdom as a married
woman. (Most
Saudi families will travel to the U.S. during the course of
their sons' studies, if only to attend graduation.) While it
is no guarantee of
acceptance, a family with regularly travels abroad or one in
which the father has been stationed abroad is general more
broad-minded
when it comes to their son marrying a Westerner. It is the
parents who can be the greatest source of pressure on a
dual-national marriage
and it is important to divine their opinions on what an
American wife can and cannot do while living in the Kingdom.
With whom will you live?
Many newly married couples move in with the groom's parents,
in a sprawling villa which may house several other siblings
and their
wives and families. Privacy is elusive and tensions with
family members who for one reason or another resent the
presence of an
American wife often makes this living arrangement difficult.
In a more affluent family, a couple may inhabit one of
several homes which
compromise a small family compound. Some Saudis live
separately in villas or apartments. While that resolves the
issue of privacy,
many American wives find themselves completely isolated
fearing the day, surrounded by neighbors who only speak
Arabic, with no
access to public or private transportation.
One tolerably married American citizen wife is not permitted
to step out on the apartment porch since the risk is too
great that an
unrelated male would be able to see her.
The most western, but least common, housing arrangement
would be an apartment or villa located in a western compound
or on the
Diplomatic Quarter. There, a semblance of western suburban
life goes on behind high walls or, in the case of the
Diplomatic Quarter,
under the protective gaze of a multitude of Saudi police
officers. However, most Saudi owners of western style
compounds ban Saudi
tenants since they fear western inhabitants would object.
The very rare Saudi male who endorses this living
arrangement is generally a
naturalized Saudi, of Lebanese or Palestinian origin. For
the average Saudi family, residence in a western compound
would be an
unnatural renunciation of Saudi culture and would make one
culturally "suspect."
With whom will you socialize?
Saudis socialize within the family. Expatriates who have
lived and worked for years in the Kingdom may never meet the
wife of a close
Saudi friend and, according to custom, should never so much
as inquire about her health. For an American wife, a social
live confined to
her husband's family can be stultifying, particularly since
few American wives speak, or learn to speak, Arabic. Whether
the Saudi
husband permits his wife to socialize with men to whom they
are not related determines how "normal" (i.e. how western) a
social live
they will enjoy. Several American wives have difficulty even
visiting the American Embassy for routine passport renewals
since their
husbands are opposed to their speaking to a male Foreign
Service Officer. Because of the segregated society, Saudi
men naturally spend
much of their time together, separate from wives and family.
(Even Saudi weddings are segregated affairs, often held on
different
evenings and in different locations.) Only the most
westernized Saudi will commit to socializing with other dual
national couples.
What freedom of movement will you enjoy?
Women are prohibited from driving, riding a motorcycle,
pedaling a bicycle, or travelling by taxi, train or plane
without an escort. All
American wives were aware that they would not be able to
drive while in the kingdom, but few comprehended just how
restricted their
movements would be. Only the relatively affluent Saudi
family will have a driver on staff, most American women
depend entirely upon
their husbands and male relatives for transportation. While
most expatriate western women routinely use taxis, an
American spouse will
be expected to have an escort - either another female
relative or children - before entering the taxi of an
unrelated male.
Will you be permitted to travel separately from your
husband?
Travel by train or plane inside the kingdom requires the
permission of the male spouse and the presence of a male
family escort. Travel
outside the Kingdom is even more restricted. Everyone
leaving the Kingdom must have an exit visa. For an American
spouse, this visa
must be obtained by her Saudi husband. The Saudi spouse must
accompany his wife to the airport to assure airport
officials that he has
given his permission for his wife to travel alone or with
the children.
One American's marriage contract specified that "she stated
that she shall never request to travel from Saudi Arabia
with any one of her
children unless with his prior consent."
Most American wives believe that the U.S. Embassy can issue
exit visas in a pinch. This is not the case. The U.S.
Embassy cannot
obtain exit visas for American citizens. Passports issued by
the Embassy are worthless as travel documents without the
mandatory Saudi
exit visa. While some more affluent American relatives offer
to pay for the American wife to travel independently, this
often meets with
disapproval from the Saudi husband or family.
Will you be permitted to work?
There are two hurdles an American wife must overcome before
finding work outside the home: The disapproval of the family
and the
paucity of employment opportunities.
Most husbands will not approve of a wife working outside the
home if it entails contact with unrelated men. One American
wife, who
was a teacher in the U.S. during the entire five years of
her courtship with her husband, was shocked when her husband
threatened her
with divorce when she requested to return to the U.S. to
finish up one quarter of classes in order to qualify for a
state pension. Now that
she was married, the Saudi husband could not tolerate her
being in the presence of other men. However, even if the
husband is willing,
the jobs are few. Employment is generally restricted to the
fields of education (teaching women only) and medicine.
Unfortunately, there
is a tremendous social bias against the nursing profession
and Saudi husbands would not approve of a wife working with
patients, except
in the position of a physician.
Will your husband take a second wife?
Among the younger generation, it is rare for a Saudi to have
a second wife but it does occur. A man is legally entitled
up to four wives,
with the proviso that he is able to financially and
emotionally accord them equal status. One American wife
discovered that her Saudi
husband had married her best friend, also and American,
while he was on vacation in the U.S.
Religion
In principle, all Saudi men must marry Muslims or converts
to Islam. In practice, many American women blur the issue;
participating in a
Sharia wedding ceremony but never actually converting.
The pressure to become a Muslim, or to be come a sincere
Muslim, is enormous and never-ending. There is no separation
of church and
state in Saudi Arabia, and at the popular level there is
simply no comprehension of religious freedom of the desire
to remain Christian or
undecided One American wife, who is approaching her tenth
wedding anniversary has been terrorized by relatives who
insist that the
King has ordered that all women who don't see the light
after ten years must be divorced and deported. For another,
the pressure comes
mainly from her children who are mercilessly teased at
school for having a foreign, non-Muslim mother.
(Half-hearted converts to Islam
find that their children are ridiculed for having mothers
who pray awkwardly or not at all.) One Saudi teacher
informed the children of an
American citizen mother, who has sincerely concreted to
Islam, that their mother could never be a Muslim since "only
Arabs can be
Muslim." Women who don't convert must accept that their
children, through hours of Islamic education a day at school
and under the
tutelage of the family, will be Muslim. Women who do convert
must understand that their conversion, particularly in the
aftermath of a
divorce, will be suspect and their fidelity to Islam
perceived to be less than their husband's.
Family
Saudi Arabia has one of the highest birthrates in the world
and families with five or more children are the norm. The
family is the basic
unit of Saudi life and family members have must closer
relations than in the United States. Every family member
feels free to give an
opinion on any facet of another family member's life.
Siblings - particularly an older brother - are expected to
financially aid each other
and males must band together to guard the honor of their
female relations. Children are not expected or encouraged to
leave the nest;
rather, extended adolescence can occur well into a man's
early thirties.
What are the differences in child raising?
To a much greater degree than in the West, Saudi children
are indulged. Little girls are dressed in miniature prom
dresses, little boys wear
the latest in western sport togs. Both wreak havoc. American
wives must suffer silently when the children of various
relations run riot
through the house. One wife related the story of a
brother-in-law's child who carefully doled out chocolate
pudding on the brand new
furniture. When she scolded the child, she was in turn
scolded for making a fuss about something that could be
cleaned.
On the other hand, the Saudi family is replete with baby
sitters and children always have young and old playmates.
with whom to mix.
Because foreign labor is so cheap in Saudi Arabia, even
lower middle class families will have an Indonesian or
Filipina housemaid to help
with the chores. Among the very affluent Saudi families and
particularly within the royal family, each child will
generate its own servant.
Many American mothers are frustrated by the dearth of things
to do with their children. Absent a driver, mothers are
cooped up at home
with the children and, even with a driver, there are few
venues to visit.
What will it be like to raise a daughter?
Cultural differences are never greater than when it comes to
the role of women and raising a daughter is a challenge in
any
Saudi-American marriage. Growing up in the Kingdom, a young
girl will naturally look forward to the day when she comes
of age and
can wear the abaya and cover her hair. She will naturally be
very devout. She may be expected to marry a first cousin.
While playing a
central role in the family, a girl is nevertheless a
statutory second class citizen who needs to be protected and
whose word is worth only
half of a man's.
For a Saudi girl, this is the natural state of affairs; for
an American mother of a Saudi girl, it can be unsettling.
Not surprisingly, most of
our child custody cases in which a child has been kidnapped
from the United States involve a Saudi father "saving" his
daughter from a
sinful" society and her "decadent" mother.
Since Saudi women are prohibited from marrying western men,
an American mother must expect her daughter to integrate
more tightly
into Saudi society. This is not necessarily the case with
sons who might be encouraged to study in the U.S. (Saudi
girls are permitted to
study in the U.S. only if they are chaperoned by a family
member), who could freely travel to the West, whose business
might facilitate
travel between the two countries, and who might elect to
marry an American woman. Several very liberal Saudi fathers
and the
American wives have been embarrassed by their more
conservative daughters' decisions not to attend school in
the United States in
deference to the disapproval of their culture.
IF THE MARRIAGE FAILS
In the worst scenario, an American wife can find herself
summarily divorced, deported, and deprived of any Light of
visitation with her
dual national children. Sharia law decidedly favors men in
the dissolution of marriage. And the laws of Saudi Arabia
require that all
individuals be sponsored by a Saudi citizen in order to
receive a visa, resident or otherwise. Therefore, once a
marriage breaks up, the
ex-wife must leave the Kingdom and may only return with the
explicit permission and sponsorship of her ex-husband. (In
cases where
the Saudi husband attempts to prevent his spouse from
leaving, the Embassy can call upon Saudi authorities to
facilitate the American
wife's departure. The Embassy cannot force a Saudi husband
to relinquish the children.)
In one instance, an American who had undergone a bitter
divorce and child custody battle with her Saudi husband,
applied for and
receive a visa to work with a company located in the
Kingdom. Once the Saudi husband and the Saudi authorities
discovered her
presence, she was thrown into jail and ultimately forced to
leave her position and the country.
What custody rights to women have under Sharia law?
Theoretically, a mother should maintain custody the children
until the ages of 7-9, when their primary care would be
transferred to their
father. However, the ultimate objective of a Sharia court in
the settlement of custody issues is that the child be raised
a good Muslim.
Whether a convert or not to Islam, an American woman will
not overcome the prejudice against her upbringing and
society. The
Embassy has no knowledge of an American or any western woman
ever winning custody of dual national children in a Sharia
court.
Can an American mother flee the Kingdom with her dual
national children?
It is impossible to legally leave the Kingdom with out the
express permission of the Saudi husband. A woman who wishes
to leave her
husband but is pregnant at the time, can be required to wait
until after the birth of the child. The same would hold true
if the Saudi
husband passed away - custody of the children and any unborn
child would remain with the closest living Saudi male
relative.
Can an American woman be denied visitation rights with her
children?
A Saudi husband must giver explicit permission for a
divorced wife to visit her children in the Kingdom. The
Embassy has worked with
the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to create the "no-objection"
visa. The ex-husband must be willing to sign a statement
that he has no
objection to his ex-wife visiting the Kingdom. In that
statement, the ex-husband establishes how long he is willing
to let his ex-wife
remain in the country. The history of no-objection visas is
mixed.
A husband often objects to the emotional disruption of a
visit from the American wife. Often the husband's second
wife becomes
jealous, and the American mother finds that her visits are
restricted in time and carried out in full view of the
extended Saudi family.
Only one American wife has successfully made no-objection
visits over the course of the last five years. She has been
successful because
she speaks Arabic (Dual national children quickly lose their
English skills once their mother departs the Kingdom), has
managed to
maintain steady relations with her ex-husband, and
reconciled herself to the fact that her child would spend at
least his first 18 years in
the Kingdom. If the custody dispute has involved kidnapping
by one or both parents, then by the time the children reach
the Kingdom
the father has no interest in facilitating relations with
the American citizen mother. In these cases, all
communication can be closed off
and Saudi authorities will not intercede in family disputes.
Consular Officers are rarely permitted to pay "Welfare and
Whereabouts"
visits.
COMMENT
Because the customs and laws of the Kingdom are so at
variance with the expectations and emotional imperatives of
an American citizen
wife in the event of a divorce, an AMERICAN considering
marriage to a Saudi must always contemplate the worst case
scenario.
American wives are bitterly disappointed and angry when they
discover the limits of the Department's and Embassy's
ability to intervene
or resolve family disputes. The Department can provide no
guidance on which marriages will succeed. But knowledge of
Saudi Arabia
and its particular interpretation of Islam should be an
American woman's first step in determining whether the
compromises required are
worth the proposed relationship.
Why go pasting it - and in such a mess, when if we can
access here we can access there! You are just increasing the
load time of the thread!
What is wrong woth these women who go to the middle east
and do not brush up on some of the cultural aspects of
arabian life? The internet has tons of information that is
closer to the truth than some people here. Like looking at
books on middle east dress, studying the Quran- wether you
are moslem or not, ect........ Why do these women act SO
surprised to see how things are when they get there. I knew
far in advance how to dress and where to obtain these
garments in order to be prepared. I knew how to act and
what not to do in certian situations. It is a plain fact
that arabian life IS different from the west, but that
doesnt make it bad. Lack of freedom for some women to move
about the country freely is to prevent things like rape,
pre-marital flings, or any other situation that may make a
man or womans reputation to be put on the line. As most
informed people know- a womans behavior is a reflection of
her family and father. So if she runs about freely like a
'loose' wester woman than she may leave herself open to
unfriendly comment. Even in America I do not just hop in my
car and run to another arab womans house without my husband
becuase it looks disrespectful of him and his rep is on the
line also. BUt I still run my own business and go anywhere
else I please. But arab protocol is different from Western
protocol. I seperate them in my own life. The phrase- step
in to line- is something I follow of my own free will. Not
that I am some obedient wife as you all think arab or
moslem women are, but that I respect his culture and
traditions. I still wear jilbab and hijab in public no
matter where I go becuase it is decent and modest. A moslem
woman is a visual symbol of her faith when she is in
public. A moslem man is not as obvious in faith when in the
west as a woman is, but he should act accordingly. But all
the islamic laws are for the protection of the people. I
was also a pessimist before I met him. I have studied Islam
and the middle east for 7 years. I have lived there. I am a
moslem. So I can understand all that encompases islamic
life and appreciate arab protocol. You can balk at all the
things you hear about arabia all you want, but the fact
remains, pass no judgement on what you do not know frmo
firsthand experience and if you are in a situation similar
to ours, then speak freely, but back it up with experience,
not quotes from a web site, book or tv show. And if your
experience is a bad one- then I am sorry, but dont ruin the
entire vision of arabia and islam for the rest of us who
were open enough to accept and adopt the lifestyle and
religion. Just becuase we take pride in decency, family,
faith, modesty and stability doesnt make us repressed and
misserable. If I am happy then be a decent human and
respect that. Do not paint a rosy picture of the west and
trash arabia. Neither is more superior than the other, but
having lived there I feel they have a better say in regards
to morals and more emphasis on family. I mean who has more
rape, divorse, truancy, gang crime, robberies, thefts,
health problems, poorer educational system, more dirty
streets, and so on? Sorry- America would not even come
close. I could be here all day naming all the gangs in the
USA, give you all the murder and rape statistics, all the
divorse cases, all the victims of crimes, all the poor
health cases, all the aids cases ect......
Did you read the site? It doesn't seem as if you did! It is
SPECIFIC about Saudi conditions, not Arab conditions in
general. It is an article from the GOVERNMENT of the USA,
stating specific examples which can only be known through
embassy references!
Look - nobody here has gone trashing women who mary Muslims!
Relax! The specific case in point is that a western girl is
thinking of a permanent liason with a SAUDI guy! Not just
ANY Arab/Muslim! If you lived in the mid-east as long as you
did, surely you know as well as I do that Saudi is a case
separate from the rest!
You are Muslim or have converted to Islam. I would like to
stress that at least in most of the mid-east, there is a LOT
less pressure to convert than if you are in Saudi.
Personally, I knew a few Christian women married to Gulf
Arabs and very happily so. I wouldn't be by far as sceptical
if this guy was Bahraini or Omani or something. Saudi has
its own set of rules.
My name is Amy Saba. I have never lived in Saudi Arabia,
only in Yemen. I am somewhat unstable and I am likely to
start swearing like a trooper if you disagree with me. I
wear a mask whenever I leave the house. My American
relatives think I'm crazy, and they are right.
So there! - cut the crap, whoever "funnybones" you think
you are. Hoping the real western woman replies.
Thank you so much everyone for all the information. I have
went to the sites and I must say that they made me a little
more worried. My friend is a nice guy but I was reading
that can change once there and he can seize my passport and
visa. I must say it worried me to think that I couldn't get
out of Saudi if he tried to hold me there and the U.S
Embassey could not help me out. I do though thank everyone
so much for the information and if you find more please
feel free to add posts.:)
To the child on post 28 and to all those here. I am not
the moron on post 28. As you all well know there are people
who come here and play pretend as if they were proving a
point. Being that I am in school for Islamic studies and
and have spent 6 years researching the middle east, I feel
I have more knowledge on the region than someone who stayes
glued to the tv. I am also a moslem. Therefore I may not be
an authority on Islam since all moslems are ever learning,
I can say from first hand experience how many moslem women
feel. You all really need to look at islamic and arabian
life from a moslem or arab perspective. Instead you all
look at it from a narrow minded, arrogant, and ignorant
point of view, then you cannot see their lives as they
really are. If you actually went there and spent your whole
time in opposition of their lifestyle, then they will not
be so kind to you. Remember they see us as differently as
we see them. American women look easy, cheap, too sexually
free, too focused on their looks and not on their morals
and decency, and money hungry gold diggers who marry for
money. It was felt to them that I was only with him becuase
he owned a business and in it for the free ride. But upon
arrival in arabia they accepted me with open arms. We retun
in October of this year so I can do my photo documentary on
rural life versus urban life in Yemen using a rural village
in the Ibb province as a comparison to Sana. We will return
in March of 2000. Funny thing though- many come here to
mock me, yet I seem to have the time, money and ability to
go over seas to live in my own home and they will still be
sitting at their computers posting crap here on the LP. I
will start my web site in Yemen from my home computer. So
for all you arrogant trolls here on the LP, look forward to
my post from Yemen on October 15th 1999.
So you admit to being Amy Saba, a convert. You also admit to
having been in Yemen but not SA. Is there anything in post
28 that is untrue?
Amy, do you really wear a mask? Does your husband wear a
mask?
You seem to be so famous!
I don't have a cloue who you are and don't care!
I'm happy you had your studies done in such an interesting
field and looking forward your post from Yemen but, RELAX,
not everybody here is an arrogant troll, nor just sits
behind the computer, nor is not "as learned as all muslem".
Furthermore by giving such a dim view of the opinion of
arab or muslem (I didn't understand exactly) men on
American women you don't actually help their cause.
If this is so, why the hell there would be any "mixed"
marriages?
Thanks for your contribution, by the way.
So how was your weekend? Lots more nonsense to read - bad
news though, I'm getting addicted to this.
I don't recall the website criticising the Saudi way of
life, just pointing out problems that westerners have with
it.
And Western Woman, you're one person (or maybe two on this
site) with your opinions. I'm one person with my opinions.
As is each of the other posters. The USA website is
information gathered from a couple of hundred individuals.
I'd say that's more objective than you or me. Unless they
made it all up. Or maybe it's a hoax planted by the CIA or
Mossad - perhaps you can verify this western woman?
What worked for you Western Woman may not work for someone
else, and in fact hasn't for many women. Especially in Saudi
Arabia.
By the way, I live in the middle east and have dealings with
local arabs fairly often.
Looking forward to your next essay.
Amy Saba is famous for starting to attack everyone and
everything (in great gushes of verbal diarrhea) if anyone
disagrees with her. She is obviously rather troubled, she
should take Prozac.
and why/where is she famous? Should I know her?
I find this thread really interesting. Anyway, I just had
this thought.....
according to muslim time we are in the year 14.. (something
like that, anyway).
Now, was 1400 anywhere in Europe a good time for women. I
don't think so. If I had the chice to choose between
medieval Europe and Saudi Arabia, I think I would prefer
Saudi Arabia.
I know this is a stupid thought, and i know I'll be flamed,
but I just wanted to write...
The Islamic lunar calender lands the time in the 1400's.
That is the Hijra year. 1900 is the amount of years after
Jesus death. Do your homework. As for Kiwi. Those who have
heard me and know me- some agree fully with me, and those
who are uneducated and ignorant oppose me becuase they dont
understand islam and believe what their media tells them
and not reality. I am a moslem, I have lived in Arabia and
will return this year. They are either uneducated, ignorant
or just palin stupid. Go figure.
Aren't you being rather closed-minded saying that anyone not
agreeing with all you say are "uneducated, ignorant or just
plain stupid"? If that is how you feel, what is the point of
joining in DISCUSSIONS on these boards?
I presume you are the same as Western Woman?
I don't agree with you. Therefore I'm uneducated and
ignorant yes? But that has to be your opinion - I know for
a fact that I am at least educated. And I didn't agree with
you in the first place so I'm hardly likely to agree with
your opinion of my ignorance and/or education.
But you never answered one of the original questions. In
Saudi Arabia (not Yemen or other countries in Arabia), is it
true that a married woman needs the permission of her
husband before she can get an exit visa?