I am fortunate enough to have discovered the Thorntree a
couple of weeks ago and since than have found it diffiuclt
to leave. During my sojourn along its branches I have,
however, discovered an emerging theme amongst the entries
which grace its pages. Often people write in to share a
particularly nasty experience or give warning about a place
they have travelled,which will inevitably involve passing
judgment on the local people they have met in those places,
usually something along the lines of "I found the
inhabitants of X to be dishonest, untrustworthy, unfriendly
etc. etc." (ther has been a bit written on Egypt and
Kashmir in this regard). Now, what really pisses me off is
the indignant, vitriolic and repetitive responses these
people invariably receive. The response usually goes
something along the lines of "you are obviously a naive and
inexperienced tourist who has failed to appreciate the
local culture and understand the inhabitants". The
implication is one of racism. This fucks me right off.
These respondents are a shining examples of a pretentious
'traveller's culture' in which it becomes absolutely taboo
to say anything even remotely critical of a place a person
has visited. However, this rule seems only to relate to
develiping, third-world countries or those which are
relatively untainted by Western corruption. It stems from a
simplistic, naive belief that "the 1st world is decaying
and filthy" whilst everywhere else is a nirvana of virtue.
There is a ridiculous presumption that the people and
culture of distant places are beyond all reproach whilst
anything connected with modernity it corrupted. BOLLOCKS! I
can see where this idea comes from - in my brief 21 years I
have managed a little travelling, to Thailand, Indonesia
and the Pacific. I intend on going on a trans Asia trip in
about 18 months. What I am searching for is pristine
wilderness and the 'untouched' people who inhabit those
places, something as far removed from the Australian middle-
class lifestyle I enjoy as possible. However, I am postive
that on my travels I will meet groups of people less
friendly and trustworthy, and not through any failing on my
part, than others. It all comes down to a simple fact -
certain groups of people have certain qualities and certain
failings. No ethnic group is perfect, regardless of how far
they live from a city. So, for example, Australians might
generalyy seem to be loud, rude and cocky but at the same
time we're also able to have a good laugh at ourselves and
we're also very friendly. If someone comes to Australia and
recognises our weaknesses, they are not guilty of cultural
insesntivity. In the same way, it would be fair to say that
Jews are aloof, the Highlanders of Papua New Guinea are
violent or the Irish are pissheads (I'm not sure that
that's a fault!. These negative traits in no way detract
from the many positive traits those peoples posess. I
should also add that these ARE only generalizations but it
is rarely possible in life to make any kind of statement
that is not general. SO DON'T RESPOND BY TELLING ME I AM
GENERALIZING - I KNOW I AM. I'd like it if people remotely
interested in what I'm saying post their responses.
[There are 18 posts - the latest was added on Wed 26 May, 8:41]
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what's your point?, cheers gus
I found your letter very interesting. I am a bit older than
you and have done a fair bit of back packing in my time. I
am a white South African which immediately places me in the
rank of confirmed racilists by so many of the misinformed.
However I am always amazed at the intolerance travellers
have towards others and the almost superior manner
westerners adopt to those from developed countries. I have
also been to Kashmir and been through the mangle of deceit
corruption etc which every one is so quick to point out. In
this regard I want to relate an incident that happened to me
while on Dahle Lake. My boatman said he would take me for
the day at 250 rupees, but as expected in a short while the
price suddenly esculated and he demanded more. I went
totally balistic, swore at him and even jumped up and down
in a child-like tantrum. My response took him by surprise
and he agreed to accept the original price. However soon
after all was forgotten and I hope, forgiven, and I ended up
at his home for tea. He had a large famly of about 9
children. They made carpets, I forget how long it took to
make these things but it is years. Two of the younger ones
were already going blind from the close work involved. His
wife looked very ill and they did not have a stick of
furniture, in fact they were dirt poot and that's not an
understatement. What was amazing he actually considered it
an honour to have me in his home and that it would raise his
status in the community. I on the other hand had behaved
really badly and would never have tolerated anybody speaking
to me the way I had spoken to him. I had a zoom camera,
binocs and not to mention all the other gear to boot. By his
standards I was immensely rich and I am in fact, but in
terms of my status here at home I earn an average salary and
can only afford to budget travel when I go anywhere.I have
seen so often before then and after,how travellers would
tell you how to beat them down when arranging prices etc and
it would even go as far as 10 rupees ( that less then 1 cent
USA). I agree with a good bargain but there are limits.
I find that the behaviour of people is always proportinate
to the amount of tourism and may be we should ask our selves
how much are we responsible for the way the local people
behave. May be if we took a little more time to understand
their culture, circumstances and situation we too might be
better people for it. On that note I have to say this,
having come from a very racialist background I have never
experienced racialism as blatent as I see it in my fellow
travellers when dealing with local people irrepective of
what country they in. I confess to being racialist in nature
due to many years of living in that environment so I
understand intolerance when I see it.
I disagree with Gus: I think Robin makes agood point. No one
is perfect, and it's foolish for us to think that just
because someone is form a dvloping country,that
automatically makes them perfect. I think it's a trap lots
of travellers fall into, probably partly because they're
amazed by how different everything is in comparison to where
they're from. Thus, if their overall impression of the
west/developed countries is a bad one, the assumption is
that people from less developed countries are somehow
better. Hope this makes sense.
Robin, as you are new here I'd like to say welcome. If you
want to get people to respond to your posts,PLEASE MAKE THEM
BRIEF! Experience has shown me that most people who people
who ramble on in long posts are usually full of shit and
should be bypassed.
When you post sweeping generalized statements about groups
of people, you are stating an opinion as a fact. This is a
common error made by people with little education or life
skills. You seem to be none of the aformentioned so I am
puzzled. Could you explain to me how personal, subjective
experiences between individuals can somehow be transformed
into facts about a race of people?
Yeah, okay, so maybe I got a bit carried away but I don't think I was being childish. All I was saying was that I was getting a bit pissed off hearing travellers with bad experiences to tell of being abuse because of their lack of 'cultural sensitivity'. Anyway, thanks for your response.
I have no problem with someone saying they had a bad time
with certain people in certain countries or areas, but to
make the leap to labling a whole people as such is simply
insensitive and shortsighted. Yes, I had experiences with
rude people in China, but I also met some brilliantly
pleasant and charitable folk along the way. I dealt with
some dishonest Kashmiris, but also left the region with some
wonderful friends. To say '(all)Jews are aloof'or '(all)
Irish are pissheads' is simply perpetuating a stereotype
based on predjudice and severely limited experience.
Make generalizations about countries if you want, about the
customs, or foods, etc. But to make blanket generalizations
about the people is rather close-minded and jingoistic.
Bill, personal subjective experience is often the only way we are able to form an opinion about a person or group of people. So if someone goes to Kashmir and finds, through personal experience, that the locals like to pilfer they shouldn't necessarily be criticised for that judgment. They can only base their opinion of Kashmiris on what they have experienced. However, I do accept that is unfair to brand a whole group as being thieves just because of what a few individuals have done. I think a lot of bad experience comes down to being in the wrong place and sometimes bevause of inappropriate behaviour on the part of the traveller. I also take your point about length which is why I am going to stop waffling. Cheers cobber!
Blah blah blah, didn't they teach you how to be concise in
University?
Stereotypes ARE bad...but you know what? They exist for a
reason. People don't make this stuff up...it comes from
somewhere. One person having one specific experience
doesn't start off this a whole chain of stereotypes.
If I went to Kosovo today this is how I would stereotype the
people. They are always on the move. Permanance means
nothing to them. They neglect their chidren. They don't
smell very nice. Their clothes are dirty. They beg for
handouts. Yes stereotypes have a grain of truth to them. But
without supporting data detailing why they are this way the
stereotype is invalid. Yes Jennifer, one person can start a
chain going with little empirical data to support the
position.
do you draw the line at your particular right to defend
your own sense of what is right, or standards, vs diplomacy
towards local culture? I'm SO glad, Robin, that you
breached this subject because it has been on my mind after
noticing the same phenomenon in 'TT'. If a place is an
irredeemable, festering, sewer-pit with subwestern
infrastructure and standards when do you make the call?
Yes, we are lucky to be blessed with our western standards
and level of existence and should be careful of looking
down on developing societies. But does that mean that their
petty conduct - and yes, general common tendencies to
childishly cheat - (and they do do that whether your grand
sense of overbearing sainthood lets you admit that or not)
is free from criticism? I take Robin's side. Whether the
west is doing this to the 3rd world using more
sophisticated methods is perhaps an other argument for
later. It's ironic that this slow social growth is what
probably preserves Indian monuments and the sense of
ancient culture that we visit India for in the first place.
The west probably has faults arising from problems of
overdevelopment, etc., that it could be rightfully disliked
for. It's just when I see people recommending eating the
pakoras and tea at a train station for a sense of Indian
atmosphere that I can't hold back my repulsion. Those
pakoras have been sitting in diesel residue and flies for
who knows how long? The tea water probably came from a
ditch near the station and is served from an algea covered
fish tank with a film on top. YYUUUUCK!!! Yes I do love
India, don't get me wrong, but Robin is right. I know that
the knee-jerks will probably reply "then why go"? I can
hear it already. All I can say is if they have to ask then
I can't really answer. If people are liars and cheaters
then they are liars and cheaters and I am not so meek as to
fear expressing that for some false sense of political
correctness. Is the whole worth the flaws? I just don't
like being preyed upon.
Bratty: I think 10 rupees is about 25 cents US, not 1 cent.
I have also gladly given a little more in India for the
reasons you expressed. I just prefer the charity to be
somewhat voluntary.
First, I agree with the post written by Robin. It's really
easy to lable a person that writes a post like Robins' a
racist. But life isn't just that simple, as each one opinion
about a subject isn't easily labeled too, and neither an
entire people. I was born and live in a third world country
and I know all the bad things there are here, as the bad
things in the first world, but I don't consider myself a
racist. It's just my opinion. But, hey, everyone should
agree that we live on a "politically correct dictatorship".
Example: Can anyone remember that movie with Eddie Murphy
that he acts as a fat man? I heard of a group (of fat
persons)trying to sue the producers the movie! This is just
a simple example only!
I agree with Robin's post. It is disappointing to see so
many people personally attack posters on the Thorn Tree for
simply expressing their own opinion. Even if a comment is
couched as an opinion, it still seems to attract an abusive
response. Unfortunately, the Indian subcontinent page is (n
my opinion!) far worse than other parts of the Thorn Tree.
Ah, now could somebody explain to me what a stereotype is?
Nice point Bill 01 at post #10...you smacked Jennifer pretty
good (although this entire stereotype conversation is
getting tired.) Just for the record, I think for now on all
Kashmiri's should have to wear stars on their sleeves so
we're better able to identify them.
...about how bad a time it is for the tourism dependent
society of kashmir at this juncture.
draw your own conclusions...every extra buck earned makes
surviving a little easy.
Robin...everyone
Just go and do it - travel, meet the people, enjoy the good
times. Get the experience - India, anywhere.
This has already deteriorated into something unpleasant...
but I think Xulo needs to take a nice long houseboat
vacation in Kashmir where he and Bill01 can use their
contorted sophistry to will away any unsavory deals. I have
never gone to Kashmir and have no personal feelings towards
it myself, and I don't like attacking people on this site,
but I think they are ignoring Robin's point to a fault. I'm
sure that after that vacation he will wear stars on his own
sleeve and become an advocate.