I'm wondering if NATO's operation will ruin my trip to
Greece and Bulgaria next month. I'm trying not to become
too anxious, but with the barrage of reports citing over
90% of Greeks disapprove of the strikes, plus the bombing
of hotels in Athens, I can't help but be a little
concerned. I didn't think much about the Bulgarians until
that errant missle took out a house in Sofia.
...
Has anybody been to Thessaloniki within the past few
weeks? How about Bulgaria? Any updates on the situation
there would be greatly appreciated.
[There are 17 posts - the latest was added on Mon 17 May, 6:42]
Use the form at the end of this page to add your own post.
Topics
| Thorn Tree
| Home
If your government is complicit in this war on Serbia, why
not ask them whether you should go or not. After all, this
war is about the rights of individuals, no?
Must say first off that the post by Angel is a stupid waste
of time - although it serves notice to all that people have
strong, emotive views on events in Serbia/Kosovo.
Anyway, I was in Bg and Greece when NATO commenced its
action. The picture in Bg was that the majority people
sided with Serbia - they did not understand why NATO had
decided to help 'terrorists in their struggle to overthrow
the Serbian government'. They are not generally exposed to
the images that we have been receiving in the West. CNN is
received by some.
When I was there (March) parlimentary speeches were to the
effect that the government supports the UN, but condemns the
use of force against civilians etc etc - trying to show
disapproval to satisfy public opinion, but trying not to get
lumped with the Serbs by the West. It is all a bit tricky.
I trust you understand that there is a war on and that
people do not behave in logical or civilised ways when there
are wars on. Some people in BG also have what I call 'the
usual small town type racism' - ie. never been out of their
own backyard and too stupid to know that there is only one
race - human. That may be a bit hard, but you probably
know what I mean. I experienced a bit of 'anti-NATO'
feeling directed at me on a bus - but nothing too bad.
As you have no doubt factored in, unless you are fluent in
the language, there is a greater than otherwise risk of
getting caught up in a misunderstanding or events which you
would prefer to avoid.
All of that said, the BG people are wonderful. The country
is great. So is Greece. I went to BG because Turkey seemed
too hot in March. It is a decision for you. There is never
no risk, but such risk as there is may be too great for
some.
I am an expat living in Thessaloniki, and despite the daily
street protests and the recent bomb in an Athens hotel, I
would say that you are fine coming here at the present
time. As Andy says, sometimes you might have a few anti-
NATO comments thrown at you, especially as not knowing the
language (or being able to read Greek) - you will stand out
as a foreigner. However, already there are thousands of
foreigners here, with many more tourists and travellers
destined to arrive over the next couple of months so you
will not be alone. As I mentioned in a previous post,
Greece does not want to upset its tourism as it is a huge
income here, so as long as you don't go around supporting
the bombing in public... avoid all demonstrations and avoid
talking politics if possible you will have a fantastic time.
Knock, Knock, yourself. Surely you don't really believe
that the governments of Iceland, Norway, Luxembourg and the
other NATO countries know more about what's going on in
Greece and Bulgaria, than people on this eletronic board who
actually live in or have recently been to Greece and
Bulgaria? I think Quapish's question here is very valid.
I'm sure that NATO governments would give out a bunch of
prepackaged propoganda that would in no way compare to the
information that you could get from people actually living
and traveling in these c
Yes, I totally agree that "the governments of Iceland,
Norway, Luxemburg and the other NATO countries" don't know
what is going on in Bulgaria and Greece, and in the Balkans
in general. Still, in spite of their ignorance, they agree
with NATO policies - bombardments and killing, completely
destroying a country that may never recover. Does that
make any sense?
I certainly believe that Quapish is right to ask. I think
that the greater problem in Bulgaria is that it is too
close to Serbia, and NATO pilots have proven to be less
than accurate (most recent examples, the missile in Sofia
or the massacre in that god-forsaken village in Serbia - by
the way, I didn't see any images of that on CNN. In a way
you are lucky, because after seeing the horror of 20 and
more bodies in small pieces, I don't think that I will ever
be the same again). Our biggest concern is for the nuclear
plant in Kozlodui, south of Sofia. Imagine if a "mistake"
happens there! In Greece (like in Bulgaria)it is true that
the people are almost unanimously against NATO strikes.
Not that much out of "love" for the Serbs, as the western
press says over and over again, but because we are
realizing that war is at our doorstep, and it makes sense
to dislike those who bring it even closer. But generally I
would say that people are not against foreigners, not even
american tourists. We have nothing against american
tourists - it is their country's policy that we oppose.
All in all, I would say that right now, it is safer for an
american to come to Greece than go to school back home.
Thank you all for your input and advice. I truly
appreciate it.
..
On a similar note, I just found out that Abdullah â•“calan
will stand trial the day I arrive in Turkey. There's never
going to be a dull moment this trip.
Dear Sofia,
My original post was not a defense of NATO, but only a
statement defending people's rights to ask questions of
security here on this electronic board.
As for one of NATO'S missiles accidentally hitting Sofia -
I'm not sure what you mean by, "You're lucky." I'm living
in Scandinavia (in a non-NATO country) and I don't have
CNN, but I did see it on BBC World and Deutsche Welle TV
(the German news channel).
I don't blame Greeks or Bulgarians for not wanting this war.
I believe the NATO killings of Serbian citizens are a
terrible tragedy, and should stop. But, those killings are
disportionate to the thousands upon thousands of innocent
Albanian Kosovars who have been raped, murdered and have
had their villages burned by the Serbian authorities. I do
not want Serbian citizens to be killed; they are victims
too. But, how do we stop the Serbian authorities from
committing another holocaust in Europe? Should the world
stand by and watch as the Albanian Kosovars are completely
ethnically cleansed? I hope there is another way, because
killing Serbian citizens (or Bulgarians, Greeks, etc)
should not be the answer. It's so sad that the world has
learned nothing from WWII.
What of the people who actually live there, nevermind the
tepid plans of a traveller who's trip may be "ruined".
This war will have profound consequences on the whole
region for years, not just next month when Quapish et al
decide that the weather there is agreeable to their
delicate constitutions.
What of the people who actually live there, nevermind the
tepid plans of a traveller who's trip may be "ruined".
This war will have profound consequences on the whole
region for years, not just next month when Quapish et al
decide that the weather there is agreeable to their
delicate constitutions.
P.S. 96% of Greeks decry the bombing. Cartoon strips
depict a wayward missile lodged in Mad. Allbright's
skull...perhaps the timid should just stay home, eh?
Of course, this board is here for people to post their
questions about travel, such as "how much is a ticket
to..." or "Is there still a train that runs from Berlin
to...". This is fine, the staff at Lonely Planet can glean
as much of the new, pertinent info as they want. Cheap
researching, understand? There are alot of good questions
raised here, and alot of preconceptions shattered.
But, for goodness' sake, I wish people would refrain from
percieving nationals of the country they wish to visit as
merely 2 dimensional backdrops in their little holiday.
Thanks.
I didn't think you were supporting NATO strikes in the
first place, so you don't have to defend yourself. As for
the "you are lucky" part, I wasn't referring to the missile
in Sofia, which had no victims, thank God, but to the bombs
in the Serb village of Strublenitsa (or something like
that, I don't speak serb and these names are really
difficult). The fact that you didn't understand to what I
was referring, proves the fact that you are (not just you,
all NATO citizens) uninformed, or, even worse, misinformed.
You cannot possibly imagine the horror of these images!
This is why you are lucky, first because you didn't see
them on the news and second because your chances of seeing
them live are quite limited, which is something that I
cannot say for us. As far as the ethinic cleansing is
concerned, I admit that after 1989 things were bad for
ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. Nevertheless, they were never
as bad as they are now thanks to NATO tactics. Accepting
that Milocevic's goal was to cleanse the Albanians, NATO
gave him the opportunity to perform a task that would
normally take decades in just a few weeks. NATO members
are just as responsible as the Serbs for the tragedy of
those people, and I don't see how the killing and the
destroying of serbian villages will offer some kind of
remedy.
Angel, don't be too hard on our western friends. Watch CNN
for a couple of hours and you will understand that it is
almost impossible for them to have a clear picture of the
situation. And also remember that there is a chance that
those people like Quapish, when they come here, they will
see how things are for themselves and may start thinking
the whole thing over.
If you don't like what is posted, don't read it ...
As for the us/them NATO discussion, take it to the "Your
Choice" page ...
Poor old Quapish, all he wanted to know was whether he
should be careful on his little backpacking adventure ...
Dear Angel,
I think you are right that the bigger issue is the affect
the Kosovan War is having on the local peoples of
Yugoslavia and the surrounding countries. You are also
right that people should be more sensitive to the locals of
the countries they visit, especially those in the Balkans
at the moment. We should all be careful of the dangers of
stereotyping.
Dear Sofia, Thank you for clearing up my confusion. But,
I have to say that just because I personally didn't see the
report you mentioned, that doesn't mean that it wasn't
covered in the media here in Finland. You seem to think
that CNN is the only Western media source. As I said, I
don't receive CNN, and I am NOT living in a NATO country.
You are absolutely right that the Western medias are
biased. Aren't all medias biased? Are you saying that
your media is not biased? You have seen the terrors that a
NATO bomb has caused, but I have seen the terrors that
Serbian authorities have done BEFORE the NATO bombing to
entire communities of Albanian Kosovars (men and young boys
slaughtered, women and girls raped, etc., etc.). Did your
media show this? I will not be so presumptious as to make
claims about what your media has or has not shown, because
I cannot speak with any authority about your media, and I
find it strange that you claim to know what the media here
in Finland covers or doesn't cover. Anyway, you are right
that NATO has only worsened the situation in Kosovo, and
they continue to make very serious mistakes, like the
accidental bombing of a civilian bus this weekend. But,
diplomatic means were tried for years with Milosovic, and
he just continued the genocide. Was the world just to sit
by and let all the Kosovar Albanians be wiped off the face
of the Earth? If diplomatic means don't work, does that
mean it's OK to just let ethnic cleansing continue? Is
letting Milosovic leisurely kill all the Albanian Kosovars
over a 10 year period somehow better that what is happening
now? Where were these people who are upset by the Serb
casualities when thousands of Albanian Kosovars were being
butchered? Could it be that their medias were not covering
it? I wish that there would not one Serbian life lost in
this conflict. As I've said before, they are vicitms too.
But, please, how does one stop the Serbian authorities from
committing another holocaust?
Dear Quapish,
Boy, I'll bet you're sorry you even asked. I just wanted to weigh in with my answer to your original question (there was one wasn't there?). Speaking as an American living in Bulgaria (and outside of Sofia), I do not percieve any great risk in coming here.
"But the public opposes the war"-- Yes they do, but I don't get the feeling that this opposition is ever projected at me personally.
"But a bomb hit Sofia"-- Yes it did, but obviously it was a mistake and no one expects anything other than accidental fire here. And if you really want to get into it, we can go on and on about your chances of something bad happening to you in Sofia/Bulgaria vs. Washington, New York, etc., etc.
"What if a ground war starts?"-- I am pretty convinced that any ground troops will not be coming through Bulgaria. And the logistics of putting ground troops into Kosovo seems to suggest a prolonged build-up of troops in the region, so it won't come as a surprise to anyone.
That's about all I can think to relate. I've traveled a good bit throughout the countryside and have not felt threatened or unsafe at all. You can pretty much rely on the strength of Bulgarian hospitality to override any ill feelings towards the US and NATO. I hope you enjoy Bulgaria and can't urge you strongly enough to try and meet the people here. Hope this was helpful to some degree.
Once again I thank the expats for all of their advice and
suggestions.
...
Angel, you appear to have some issues. You automatically
assume I am American, which I'm not. I'm Irish, and my
country isn't even taking part in the bombings. I don't
understand how my simple, travel-related question can be
construed as "percieving nationals of the country [I] wish
to visit as merely 2 dimensional backdrops in [my] little
holiday." I suggest you take your rantings to
soc.culture.greek or some other related area where you can
bitch and moan about American foreign policy to your
heart's content.
cant go anywhere this summer, those bombers cant shot straight and miss their goals like some crazed kids in amusementparks. its hoting up to something, pre-millenial-tension or something.
I'm a romanian guy living in Bucharest. I have just
returned from Greece, were i go often.
I just want to say that Thessaloniki is probably the best
city to live in.
It hasn't so many famous places of interest like others
cities but the people are fantastic. They enjoy every hour
of their life. Don't miss the night life of the city.
Don't worry , you will be safe.