can some people please tell me their favorite towns in
slovenia? we will be traveling from budapest to venice and
I want to spend nearly a week in slovenia. is there much to
see in the northwest corner? and how are the alps? do many
people speak german along the austrian border? favorites
things to do in ljubljana? I would most like to stay in
private homes, how much would that cost? many thanks.
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Slovenia is a wonderful little country. To help you get
started, see Footloose Travel Magazine at
www.footloosetravel.com. The Alps are great. Piran is also
very nice - located on the coast. Have fun!
Ljubljana is a great city - lots of small interesting
neighborhoods and easy to get around. I have a few things on
Slovenia and Ljubljana on my web site at
http://www.accesscom.com/~arz/
Go to lake Bohinj. It is a jewel
WHEN IN SLOVENIA VISIT ISTRIA. THIS REGION WAS STOLLEN TO
ITALY AFTER THE 2ND World war: In Pirano or Portorose you
will find all the charm of Venice. In fact Istria belonged
to Venice for about 1000 years.
After that give a look to the Riviera di San Sabba and the
Carso, where slovenians and other yougoslavians, killed
about 20.000 italians suspected to be fascists...Please do
it.
You should see western and SW Slovenia - Postojna, Skocjan
caves, Bohinj, Kanin Mt. and Soca river valley.There is more
people speaking english.
Private rooms costs about 20 dem per day, but in the Alps
region it is sometime hard to find free acommodation. I find
some good mountain houses (see www.si). They are cheep and
clean.
And if you'll visit ISTRA you'll probably hear from
Slovenians and Croats about crimes and killings made by
Italian fascists (not all Italians) between World Wars.
PICCOLO ITALIANO, YOU ARE not ITALIAN at all! Or you are
one of the pure communists survived in Slovenia/Croazia.
Hopfully you said that not all italians comitted crimes.
But I must say that partisans of Tito didn't made any
difference between italian fascists and other italians...So
that they prefered to kill ALL the italians suspected. As
the magazine 'The European' wrote: ''Istria is one of the
last colonies in Europe''
'Vincit omnia veritas'.
Ciao, Piccolo Italiano (or supposed to be).
RYAN, visit beautiful Istria and think about the crimes
committed there by Ustasci from Lubjana and Zagreb!
PICCOLO ITALIANO, YOU ARE not ITALIAN at all! Or you are
one of the pure communists survived in Slovenia/Croazia.
Hopfully you said that not all italians comitted crimes.
But I must say that partisans of Tito didn't made any
difference between italian fascists and other italians...So
that they prefered to kill ALL the italians suspected. As
the magazine 'The European' wrote: ''Istria is one of the
last colonies in Europe''
'Vincit omnia veritas'.
Ciao, Piccolo Italiano (or supposed to be).
RYAN, visit beautiful Istria and think about the crimes
committed there by Ustasci from Lubjana and Zagreb!
I am from Slovenia, so I can offer all the info you want.
Just E-mail me.
To Alessandro: if you're playing 'justice-for-Italy' guy,
let me at least tell the following: Ustasi (not Ustasci)
were exclusively from Croatia. They never had a branch in
Ljubljana, or anywhere else in my country. Speaking of
stealing: what about Trieste? It used to be a Slovenian
city.
I am from Slovenia, so I can offer all the info you want.
Just E-mail me.
To Alessandro: if you're playing 'justice-for-Italy' guy,
let me at least tell the following: Ustasi (not Ustasci)
were exclusively from Croatia. They never had a branch in
Ljubljana, or anywhere else in my country. Speaking of
stealing: what about Trieste? It used to be a Slovenian
city.
I'm Slovenian, so all the info you want is just an E-mail
away. Mine, of course!
To Alessandro: next time you play justice, please check
historic data first. Ustasi (and not ustasci) were
exclusively Croatian business. They never 'operated' in
Slovenia, let alone Ljubljana. And people they killed
weren't Italians, but those from Yugoslavia ('Communists').
I know Tito and others killed all those supposed fascists,
but then, how many people were killed by Italians when they
invaded Slovenia and Croatia? Many more, my dear. And not a
tenth of them were Communists (if that's supposed to be
your argument), but ordinary workers and farmers.
Objectivity, please.
for multiple posts. Browser problems.
Chia Alessandro,
See you in TRST.
Shame on you, Alessandro!
You said that Istria was stolen from Slovenia. That is a
big undisgusting lie. we should talk about TRST, GORICA,
NABREÄINA, VIDEM, DEVIN. what about year 1941 when italians
occupied Ljubljana. What about slovenian minority in Italy??
really shame on you.
We all know about italian "courage" in every war. I think
you lost second WW and not slovenians... I could tell you
many more things, but it is wasting time for such idiots
like you.
Ryan, come in Slovenia, it is really a beautiful country.
(i'm from KOPER on the coast of JADRANSKO MORJE).
The best places: LJUBLJANA, PIRAN, BLED, BOHINJ, SKOFJA
LOKA, POSTOJNA (CAVES) and many others.
Have a nice time in my little, but friendly country.
Dear solevenians (o_girl, piccolo italiano, alen...etc.), I
was sure about your blind nationalism...Thanks to prove it
again! I think that your enter in the European Union is
far, very far. You simply forget the REAL history of you
country (when I read that Trieste was slovenian...I just
laugh!).
RYAN, don't waist your time with us. Go to Slovenia and
(why not) to Croatia if you want. After that visit Italy
(Trieste, Gorizia) and we will chat again about 'human
rights' in those three countries (I have to admit that the
situation is better in Slovenia than in Croatia). Can you
imagine that italians from Istria are not allowed to speak
italian as their mother language?
Have a nice trip!
Dear solevenians (o_girl, piccolo italiano, alen...etc.), I
was sure about your blind nationalism...Thanks to prove it
again! I think that your enter in the European Union is
far, very far. You simply forget the REAL history of you
country (when I read that Trieste was slovenian...I just
laugh!).
RYAN, don't waist your time with us. Go to Slovenia and
(why not) to Croatia if you want. After that visit Italy
(Trieste, Gorizia) and we will chat again about 'human
rights' in those three countries (I have to admit that the
situation is better in Slovenia than in Croatia). Can you
imagine that italians from Istria are not allowed to speak
italian as their mother language?
Have a nice trip!
Yes, Alessandro, it's true - we won't enter EU as long as dickheads deciding on that will 'know' our situation and history better than we do ourselves.
In this confused word, more Fascists is exactly what we need... sic
To Ryan: I hope the posts above gave you an idea of
places to visit in Slovenia. I travel a lot and
wouldn't want to live anywhere else than here. The
posts probably gave you also an idea of slight
problems we have with some of our neighbours. I
guess wherever you go, you will meet lost of cool
people, but also some, well, assholes. Doesn't
matter where, Italy, Slovenia, ...
To Alessandro: a bit of history. Slovenia only
became independent in 1991. Before that, the
territory was under various rules: Yugoslavian,
Austro-Hungarian empire and Italian, Napoleon's
Illirian provinces etc. But the nation (Slovenes)
has lived here for app. 1000 years. Istra was a
part of Venetian republic until 1799 (Pula was under
Venice from 1331 to 1799 - that's 468 years and you
are talking about 1000!). Then it became a part of
Austro-Hungary, which lasted until 1918 (the end of
WW I). Austro-Hungary disintegrated after the war,
but not Italy, which changed sides in 1917. For that
move, Italy was awarded with Istrian territory.
Between WW I and II, Italy became a fascist
dictatorship country, with Mussolini in power. The
fascist rule was oppressive also to its own nation,
and even more to non-Italians on newly adopted
regions like Istra (which had mixed
Italian-Slovene-Croat population). Many people were
killed even before WW II. In WW II, Italy occupied
western part of present Slovenia, including
Ljubljana, to do some more killings. After WW II,
the border between Italy and Slovenia moved towards
west, to its present position and Istra went to
Yugoslavia. Today it belongs to Croatia, with only a
small part being in Slovenia. Now why do you think
that out of all these owners of Istra (Venetian
republic, Austria, Italy, Yugoslavia, Croatia) Italy
is the rightful one? Why do you think it was stolen
from Italy in 1945 when Italy stole it in 1918 from
Austria and Austria stole it in 1799 from Venice
which stole it from... the story could go on
forever. Do you think Ljubljana should be given to
Italy, too? After all, it was Italian territory in
WW II; only between 1941 - 1943 though, but let's
not be so picky here... And, two thousand years ago,
whole Europe was under Roman Empire: so, maybe you
should tell all those French and German people,
that, in fact, their land was stolen from Roman
empire and therefore Italy and you want it back...
My hometown belonged to Austria hundred years ago,
but I don't see any Austrians yelling at me: "That's
our land, you stole it from us!" These political
processes are not always called "stealing",
sometimes they are called "gaining independence"! I
see your violent reaction on the name Istra; maybe
this is new to you, but people use different names
for the same thing in different languages. We don't
say Istria, we say Istra. English people don't say
Roma, they say Rome. Do you jump on them: "It's
ROMA, not ROME!"? We also don't say Lubjana (like
you), for us it is Ljubljana. And Kras instead of
Carso... You accuse people here of nationalism, but
if you don't accept other language but yours
("Istria, not Istra!"), isn't this a touch
nationalistic?
If you invited Ryan to count Italian bodies in
Slovenia and Croatia, maybe you should also invite
him to Italy to count Slovenian, Croatian and
Italian bodies there. Or do you think Mussolini's
Italy was a welfare state? The repression lasted 15
years there (including WW II)... But I am sure Ryan
has better things to do than digging graves...
I heard Italian sources about killings after WW II;
I also heard Slovenian ones. The numbers differ
significantly. As always, the truth probably is in
between.
Maybe you should read some history books: you seem
to be terribly ignorant here (1000 years of Venetian
rule, not knowing that "ustasci" were from Croatia
and they fought on the same side with fascists
etc.). Have you calculated the number of victims
(20.000) with the same accuracy as these historic
facts?
Slovenian part of Istra is officially bilingual
(Slovenian/Italian). I wonder what is your opinion
on Italian side: should the Trieste area in Italy be
bilingual, too, or not? There are Slovenes living
there, you know...
BTW, I like to think that we are all the same,
members of the human race; but apparently not.
Sometimes I am rudely reminded that, in the first
place, we seem to be Italians and Slovenes and
Croats etc.
Hello Jure!
Your love for your country is the same that I have for
Istria, the country of my grand-father.... My grand family,
who lived in Portorose, had to leave that town (where they
had a beautiful home) and Istria after the II WW. If not
they would be killed by partizans of Tito (as happended to
other 20.000 italians in the Foibas of CArso...). It seems
(but who can say the exact number) that not less than
300.000 italians were obliged to leave Istria and Fiume
(sorry, Rijeka). Now my grand father is died and my father
would like to have his house back...like the other italians
who asked for it.But it seems Slovenia is still
undecided... (I am sure you know the official position
better than me).
According to the local and the international press and
medias, before entering in Europe Slovenia (and Croatia, of
course) have to give back to italians what the
yougoslavians (I mean , croatians, serbians ..and
slovenians) burgled. The other descendents of istrian-
italians should have the right to buy a house and to live
in peace (can you imagine 300.000 italians coming back to
Slovenia/Croatia? Poor Tujman!)
Jure this situation is not your fault nor mine. I am really
sorry to hurt you, but I consider Istria my country too.
You are right when you say that probably the truth is in
the middle. We all have to check out for the truth. It's
not time for other wars.
Ciao.
Alessandro, you say Italian minority is not allowed to speak Italian in Istria. Now I wonder which Istria you mean. In Slovenia, Italian minority HAS all due rights. Been there? Then you should know that on the area of Italian minority all names of towns, streets, organisations etc. are billingual - e.g. Piran-Pirano, Koper - Capodistria (same goes for Northeastern part where Hungarian minority lives). There are Italian schools, newspapers, their own TV programme, and Italian minority has a deputy in the parliament.
But then you cross the border where Slovenian minority is very much present (lived there for quite a few centuries), and not see ONE billingual town/street name, not to mention the rest of it. Human rights?
There is only a difference: the slovenian minority in Italy
is composed by italians speaking another language (as in
VallΘe d'Aoste/Val d'Aosta). When ia province the
'minority' is the 'majority' (like in Sudtyrol/Alto Adige)
all is bilingual (and more than this!). Istria is an
italian region, governed by Croatia and (just for some
square kilometers) by Slovenia...
It seems that in Slovenian Istria something have changed
recently (as Slovenia asked to join the European Union...)
but for istrians who escaped it is still imposible to have
back their homes...and live in peace in thei country...
Unfortunately the situation of Croatian Istria doesn't
change at all. Tujman, sponsored by the catholic church and
nationalists, considers Istria part of Croatia...
Meta, think about the artificial border created by
yugoslavian, that separes Istria in two riculous parts...
HAVE A NICE DAY
There is only a difference: the slovenian minority in Italy
is composed by italians speaking another language (as in
VallΘe d'Aoste/Val d'Aosta). When ia province the
'minority' is the 'majority' (like in Sudtyrol/Alto Adige)
all is bilingual (and more than this!). Istria is an
italian region, governed by Croatia and (just for some
square kilometers) by Slovenia...
It seems that in Slovenian Istria something have changed
recently (as Slovenia asked to join the European Union...)
but for istrians who escaped it is still imposible to have
back their homes...and live in peace in thei country...
Unfortunately the situation of Croatian Istria doesn't
change at all. Tujman, sponsored by the catholic church and
nationalists, considers Istria part of Croatia...
Meta, think about the artificial border created by
yugoslavian, that separes Istria in two riculous parts...
HAVE A NICE DAY
There is only a difference: the slovenian minority in Italy
is composed by italians speaking another language (as in
VallΘe d'Aoste/Val d'Aosta). When ia province the
'minority' is the 'majority' (like in Sudtyrol/Alto Adige)
all is bilingual (and more than this!). Istria is an
italian region, governed by Croatia and (just for some
square kilometers) by Slovenia...
It seems that in Slovenian Istria something have changed
recently (as Slovenia asked to join the European Union...)
but for istrians who escaped it is still imposible to have
back their homes...and live in peace in thei country...
Unfortunately the situation of Croatian Istria doesn't
change at all. Tujman, sponsored by the catholic church and
nationalists, considers Istria part of Croatia...
Meta, think about the artificial border created by
yugoslavian, that separes Istria in two riculous parts...
HAVE A NICE DAY
Alessandro, how can you be so narrow-minded? There's
wonderful sentence in your post: "The slovenian minority in
Italy is composed by italians speaking another language." So
you say that Slovenians in Italy are in fact Italians, but
they just speak Slovene languange... That's brilliant
thinking! Maybe this is true for Istra also: so the Italians
in Istra are in fact Croats, but they just speak Italian
language... How about that?
There are some more terrible inconsistencies in your post:
(1) you say that in Slovenia things have changed recently.
Well I've been going to Istra since I was a kid (early 70's)
and all this time, Istra was officially bilingual. There
were bilingual signs everywhere (Portoroz/Portorose,
Pula/Pola etc.), also in Croatia, not just Slovenia. And you
say things changed recently... Have you ever been to Istra
at all?
(2) you say Istra is Italian region, governed by Croatia;
what makes it Italian region? As far as I know, all three
nations live there. In fact, since 1799, Istra was Italian
for just 25 years (1918-1943) and most of those 25 years it
was a fascist rule of terror. In that time, Mussolini tried
to make Istra more Italian by moving in people from South of
Italy and eliminating non-Italians. A lot of Istra's people
were happy when Italian fascist regime was defeated (and
German Nazis in 1945). What about earlier period, 1799-1918?
Was Istra Italian, too? As far as I know, it belonged to
Austria (including Trst/Trieste) and Italy & Austria were
friendly countries, even allies in WW I (until 1917). I
never heard Italy wanted to snatch "Italian" Istra away from
Austria then...
Also, official relations between Italy & Slovenia are quite
friendly at the moment (much better than 3 years ago), which
is good, of course. The property of Italians in Istra was a
big thing a couple of years ago, but now it is rarely even
mentioned. Don't be too surprised if Slovenia joins EU
without addressing this issue. Other EU countries saw
Italian position towards Slovenia as blackmailing ("you will
never enter EU if you don't do as we say, we will always put
veto"), so it softened. Seems like common sense is
prevailing on both sides instead of angry voices. A week ago
I read an article about Slovenian schools in border areas in
Italy with mostly Slovenian population. There are not just
Slovenian pupils, a lot of pupils are also Italians. And
also their parents are learning Slovene language. They say:
"We want to live in friendship with our neighbours, we want
to accept them and be accepted so we decided to learn their
language." I found this amazing, they are Italians, they
live in Italy, but they decided to learn Slovene as an act
of good will. So you see, there are a lot of open-minded
people around, not just the ones that say: "It's Istria, not
Istra!"
My dear AlessandrO!
You put down so many lies that I don't know should I Cry or
should I Laugh.
Just one thing: you said that Italians in Istra are not
allowed to speak their language. So the facts are like this:
I live on slovenian coast and I HAD TO learn italian
language for 8 years in primary school and 4 years in
secondary (12 years all together - OBLIGATORY!!!!!).
Please tell me if there exist one! italian school in Trst
where children HAVE to learn slovene!
Of course you will not answer to me because you already put
down your last message. Yes, it's very smart not to talk if
you don't have any arguments (someone could think-maybe
Ryan- that you are right).
FOR SLOVENIANS: To je res prasec. kar pritisk mi dvigne, ko
berem njegove odgovore. take je potrebno Φim prej zatreti.
oprostite mi za mogoce malo hude besede, ampak si res ne
morem pomagati.
Prav imas, Janez - in ti, Jure, svaka cast, ful obvladas! Glede tega fasista pa toliko: hudo je, da slisis take bale konec 20. stoletja! Se dobro, da smo mi pametnejsi.
Buon giorno, visto che parli l'italiano mi rivolgo a te
nella mia lingua (anzi, nostra?). Tu puoi ridere di quello
che io scrivo e puoi dire che sono tutte bugie... Ma quello
che ho visto io in Istria non Φ quello che tu racconti.
Cinque anni fa ho partecipato ad un meeting
dell'associazione italiani d'Istria (non ricordo il nome
esatto) che mi hanno confermato quello che ho visto. Forse
la situazione nella parte amministrata dalla Slovenia Φ
migliore, rispetto all'Istria croata. Ma certa il passato
non si cancella fingendo che tutto vada bene.
E le case e le terre agli italiani che hanno dovuto
abbandonare la loro terra devono essere restituite... Ti
pare?
A questo punto spero che Ryan non abbia cambiato
destinazione!
Well, if Ryan changes his destination, it's gonna be because of you!
because of me? I don't think so...my dear Slovenian girl.
In any case I didn't want to carry on with this festival of
nationalism ...(why did you send a message in slovenian ?)
What is happening now in Kosovo is the same that happened
in Istria 50 years ago...Maybe you are too young to
remember it... maybe you prefer to forget it.
so. uh... thanks.
But Alessandro, don't you like what's going on in Kosovo? Because you know, you sound just like Milosevic! The most common quotations of him are 'joining all Serbs', 'Kosovo is the cradle of Serbia and Albanians pushed Serbs out, so we just want it back', etc. In case you don't understand metaphors (and I really think you don't), insert 'Italians' instead of 'Serbs' and 'Slovenians' instead of 'Albanians', and Istria instead of Kosovo.
Now farewell!
I don't want to be nasty with you, but your nationalism
makes you blind...You simply ignore (?) european
history...Poor O_Girl!
Don't be surprised if Ryan decides not to visit your
Country.
It's useless to continue with our posts. I am sure that we
are not going to change our opinions... even after 1000
posts! Isn't it?
Ciao, O_Girl. Peace.
I don't want to be nasty with you, but your nationalism
makes you blind...You simply ignore (?) european
history...Poor O_Girl!
Don't be surprised if Ryan decides not to visit your
Country.
It's useless to continue with our posts. I am sure that we
are not going to change our opinions... even after 1000
posts! Isn't it?
Ciao, O_Girl. Peace.
...is simply a wonderful city. Most natives I met while
ther spoke any other language but english (OK, not the
younger ones) so I don't know about the minority issue.
Bevare of Slovenian language though, it's a slavic language
and thus totally uncomprehensible to most Westeners, but
they cunningly write with latin alphabet to fool foreigners
to thinking it is intelligebele ;-> (just some bad
experiences with timetables...)
I got a private room through Hotel Piran for my second
night of stay for 30 DM, which was very reasonable
considering that it was 11 PM and the last bus had left the
city. The room was fine, but the guest house (the name is
in LP) was better value at 22 DM including breakfast.
Cheers,
Teemu
Scrolling down the Thorn Tree my eye caught this topic.
I've never been to Slovenia (I live in London), and since I
intend to go there some day I decided to take a look.
Seeing Alessandro's replies (obviously getting worse and
worse) I was quite shocked. I'm a history student and I
took a course in post-war Eastern and Central Europe last
year, was taught about Istria, too - and never heard of it
being a piece of Italy, not AFTER 1945, of course. I must
say my knowledge agrees with what Jure wrote on the matter.
Now, does it make me a Slovenian nationalist too? Is my
history professor, an Englishman, a Slovenian nationalist
since he told me Istria is a part of Slovenia/Croatia? Has
the world conspired to lie while Italy is the only island
of truth in it? Alessandro, you seem to really believe it,
and this battle "which we couldn't finish after 1000 posts"
was, anyway, started by you. I don't wonder it can't be
finished when you won't read what people actually write
(that's at least the impression) and keep rattling
'nationalism, nationalism' in lack of real arguments.
Sorry, bloke, the only one who is blinded by nationalism
here is you. And I hate to see such attitude on boards
which should in the first place promote tolerance.
Dear Elisabeth,
I think that your 'neutral' view is not really neautral.
Sorry, but your knowledge of european history is not good.
Istria belonged to Venice for centuries and after that it
was Austrian and Italian. After 1945 Italy lost this
region and, by the treaty of Osimo, Istria, Fiume and other
lands passed under Yugoslavia (which gived the north of
Istria to the 'republic' of Slovenia and the rest to the
other 'republic' of Croatia).
Elisabeth, you are american (but I don't think so, sorry)
you study in England...you don't know anithing of the past
of my Istria. I am not a nationalist or fascist (as said in
slovenian O_Girl). I din't study history in Italy, but in
France...and my teacher was greek!! I haven't spent my
life in a small country .
Every weekend when I turn from Ljubljana, where I work and
read your post, mio caro Alessandro, I' m more angry. In
every letter you write more and more lies. This is
unbeliavable at the end of the 20.th century.
It doesn't matter where did you study and who was your
teacher but what do you have in your head. And it seems
that you don't have anything.
I made a degree in two different high schools and one theme
for my diploma was the trade in Koper and Istra in middle
age. So I read many books on this issue and the truth is
something like that: Slovenians came in this areas around
year 600 AD and lived there continously till today. Only
the rulers changed many times, not the people. Of course,
there have been always some Italians (after all, it was
Roman Imperium here), but the big mayority was always
slovenian. And Venice was only one ruler among many others.
So, why do you think, that YOUR (ref. to your las post)
Istra belong to Italia and not maybe to Austria or Hungary
or à..
After second world war many borders were drawn
unjusticously, for Slovenia too. After all, the land which
is now called Slovenia is cca only one third of Slovenian
ethnic territory of some hundred years ago. But I have
never said that parts of our neighbouring country belongs
to us, because Slovenians live there. Slovenia is very
small country yes, maybe because of this reasons too. But
It's nice to live here. What did you want to say with the
statement that you never lived in a small country? Do you
think that the size of country is connected with wisdom,
culture or even right to judge and to change historical
facts? How could you say to Elizabeth that she doesn't know
anything about history of this places? Maybe this means
that I don't know anything about the history of Inkas or
Mayas because i have never been in South and Central
America? Of course you know everything about Istra because
you partecipated 5 years ago to the meeting of Italians in
Istra? Did you participate to any meeting of Slovenian in
Italy? Maybe you could hear totaly different story there?
And after all you didn't answer to my question if there are
slovenian lessons for italian children in Italy. (as in
Slovenia there are for slovenian children in slovenian
school û obligatory)
You are too much patronising (nobody knows anything but
you, we are too young, you studied in France with Greek
professor! ). Yes, very strong arguments.
At the end: you compare Istra and Kosovo. We know what is
suffering because Slovenia got its independence in 1991
after war with Serbia ang Milosevic (thanks god only ten
days and 100 deaths). Maybe you are too young to remember
the suffering in 2 WW. And after Slovenia it was Croatia,
Bosnia and now Kosovo. It lasted 8 years that Europe and
NATO start to do something against serbian leader. (maybe
because we don't have petrol like Kuwait???). And even now
italian communists demand to stop bombing Serbia. In
Slovenia I didn't hear such voices. So everyone could make
own judgement who is more, Let me say, barbar.
Sorry, Alessandro, but you simply don't have right.
Nationalism is shit! Don't play into the hands of the Man.
I am not surprised of your thought about Istria, Slovenia
and Italy. You have studied In Slovenia and it's normal
that you learned only the 'official version' of facts. Try
to give a look even out your small Country. It's important
if Slovenia really wants join Europe.
You say that I am not right...maybe, but you are not right
either when you say that nobody knows the truth but me...
You have your opinions not the plain truth.
On Istria I have my strong opinion:
1)this land doesn't belong to Slovenia nor to Croatia (As
Sudtiyrol, governed by Italy, it's not italian at all... -
as you can see I am not nationalist!). This doesn't mean
that I want to change the borders.
2)the 20.000 istrians killed by yougoslavians (= serbians,
croatians and...slovenians...)after the ii w.w. must be
remembered ; the descendents of the 300.000 istrians forced
to leave Istria should be indemnizated.
(by the way, children of the province of Gorizia and
Trieste CAN STUDY SLOVENIAN on demand. Italian
Constitution recognise it9.
Alessandro, if Kranjski Janez learned 'official version' of
the facts, where did you learn your version? Seems to me
your ideas come from tenth-rate right-wing oriented press
and rumours rather than from anything more reliable. Also,
maybe Elisabeth was subjected to the same 'official version'
that was secretly implanted by our little country into
history books across the world...
Anyway, on http://www.merku.com there is an article, a
comparison between the Italian exodus from Istra and German
exodus from Czech republic after WWII. It's also available
in Italian language. I found several things that caught my
attention:
1. in 1910 (while Istra was in Austro-Hungarian empire), its
population was reportedly 195.000 Slovenians/Croats and
145.000 Italians. Maybe these numbers cannot be 100%
reliable, but important thing is that there were also a lot
of non-Italians in the region.
2. in 1936 (after 18 years of Italian rule), officially
there were only Italians. Where did all the others go? Maybe
this was the result of highly democratic and
friendly-to-other-nations Mussolini's regime? Of course also
other nations still lived in Istra, although their number
shrinked dractically due to brutal 'Italianization'...
3. the official number of people that left Istra after WWII
was 191.000. Then the article says about 10.000 others and
states 250.000 as the theoretical maximum of refugees. You
keep talking about at least 300.000.
4. In the article it says around 2.000 persons from Istra
were killed. It's a high number, but not even close to your
figure: 20.000.
5. the exodus of Italians lasted 13 years: from 1943 to
1956. You say they had to flee or they would be killed by
communist regime; I cannot imagine why someone would wait
from 1945 til 1956 if their lives were in danger... Why not
escape as soon as possible? Since Italian government offered
appealing conditions for Istrian people, looks like many
reckoned they would be better off in Italy.
6. please read the comparison: you will see the things that
happened between Germans & Czechs. You will see much higher
numbers of refugees and deaths. And yet, Germans don't
demand their land back and they admit that it would have
never happened without German repression & terror in the
first place.
7. have you really ever been to Istra/Slovenia/Croatia? Many
Italian tourists come every year and they have been doing so
for decades. If this really was a place so unfriendly
towards them, do you think they would keep coming?
Ce bi vsi Slovenci se tako trudili, kot se vi, potem se
sedaj ne bi prepirali cigav je piranski zaliv..
Svaka cast.
Hi Jure, I must confess that I appreciate your comments.
Really.
You are not a nationalist as others and every time you try
to be correct with me. I have nothing else to say about MY
opinions (they are the opinions of a descendent of Istians
who suffered and lost ALL...).
As you said in a previous message may be that the truth is
in the middle of of the 2 (or more) versions about facts
and reality of Istria. I Have been in Istria, of course. I
also visited Lubiana and Zagreb, and the part of Istria
which now (unfortunately) belongs to Croatia of Tujman...
I know that many italians come to Slovenia and Croatia for
holidays (or for the Casino of Nova Goriτa)...and someone
are ready to say that the situation in Slovenia and
Croatia is ok... It's a question of personale taste. We
still have a lot of 'old style communists' in Italy who
ignore ALL of Yugoslavia...and (maybe) also ignore that
Italy lost Istria after the II w. war...
About the other points of your message I prefer not to
comment as our points of view are still far. You know, it's
not really important to know the number of italian refugees
from Istria (200.00; 250.000: 300.000 ...who can say the
exact number), nor the exact number of persons killed:
2.000, 10.000 or 20.000... (the 'Carso' is still full of
skeletons...who can count them?). The most important thing
is to recognize them and to give back the houses to the
descendants of people forced to leave Istria.
I hope a better future for the few italians still living in
Istria (specially for those living in Croatian Istria...)
Take care.
Dear Ryan, I had to scroll back the screen to refresh your question.
There are tonnes of beautiful places in Slovenia. If you travel from Budapest to Venice and want to see the NW part of the state (the Alps) you will be able to see a lot of it, especcially if you travel from Ljubljana to Kranj, Kranjska Gora then over the Vrsic pass to the south (traveling through the beautiful Soca valley) and finish the route on the coast (all the towns there are magnificent).
You ask if people speak german along the austrian border. Most of them do. It is kind of heritage of the Slovenia's history that was well presented in previous mails. Don't worry about the language cause most of people speak at least one foreign language (mostly English).
I would suggest that you try to find the accommodation on tourist farms so you will be able to get to know the people and the culture much better than in hotels. And the cost of it is cca. 30 DEM/BB.
Please, mail me, I will be very glad to help you or answer any questions you have. I am sure Slovenia will enchant you for life after visiting it.
And for all the people above exchanging facts, please don't fight. This is the site created to help fellow travelers and to spread unity and love among the nations.
It would be better to create some kind of chat room on this topic and exchange opinions (I would be glad to join it).
Take care, enjoy life and visit Slovenija one day.
Alessandro are you still there?
I have a question for you - I tried tio find the toponime
"Italy" on history maps of Roman empire and Venezia. I did
not make - did you? Or did you meet recently some ancient
Romans or Venetians and asked them about their nationality?
Croatian and Slovenian nationalism? Did you ever heard for
Garibaldi?
Did you read book Gli sposi di Via Rosseti? Try it...
Pozdrav Janezu, Juri i O Girl iz Hrvatske.
Maja, a ciji je Piranski zaljev? Zar se i ti spustas na
razinu nasih idiota-politicara koji vec godinama ne
uspijevaju rijesiti osnovne probleme i pustiti nas da zivimo
na miru...
Neno YOUR 'CAZZATE'PROVE THAT YOU WERE DRUNK of FANATISM!
cIAO (not chiao!)
Seeing the writings of an emotional, though not very
rational italian, is quite entertaining, I must admit.
Being a norwegian and a descendant of proud, though badly
mannered vikings, I`m now wondering how I myself can apply
this logic.
My ancestors, while burning monasteries on the
Brittish Isles, also built a few cottages there. I would
very much like to accquire those Isles, though the Danes
are probably entitled to an even bigger part of them.
By the way, while you`re in Slovenia, Ryan, try
taking the train, a few buses and a ferry. Suddenly you
will find yourself on the Croatian island of Rab. An old
roman settlement, by the way. ( yes, tiny letters for
nationalities)
Ryan! Slovenia is simply beautiful if you like nature. Maybe
sometimes can be a little too sleepy at night. Come and
check it yourself!
Grega from Slo.
PS.I love Slovenia and I like Italy and Italians too. Thanks
god there are only few such assholes like Alessandro :-).
Thank for loving italians...An asshole like you calle me an
asshole... Why not... But we are differents: I say the
truth and ...you lie!
Even if you will spend the rest of your (long I hope!) life
saying that ISTRIA is slovenian...YOU ARE WRONG. Or you
lie...
Ciao
Hi there, Alessandro,
Grega never mentioned Istra - so how could he lie about
something he never mentioned?
On the other hand, I saw you being wrong (or lying) many
times on this branch. The 1000 years of Venetian republic,
you were wrong (or you lied) here. Number of exiles from
Istra, you were wrong (or you lied) again. Number of
Italians killed at the end of WWII, you were wrong (or lied)
again - by a factor of 10. So how can anybody still believe
you? Well, looks like nobody really believes you here. A lot
of people left posts on this page, nobody sided with you.
Doesn't this make you wonder?
Seems to me you enjoy arguing with other people - why? Is
this a compensation for something that you lack in your
life? Grega was right, Italians are usually a nice bunch,
very few will have extreme opinions like yourself. Browsing
through Thorn Tree, I found another person getting involved
into verbal fights about Istra - his name was Al/Milano.
Very similar to Alessandro, I would say.
Alessandro - Ryan just asked some questions. An idea for
you: why don't you start your own post about your Slovenian
frustrations - you can then write as much as you want about
your fascist ideas and fight with everyone stupid enough to
reply to you. A title "I hate Slovenians even more than
Jews" would fit perfectly, don't you agree :-). I
suppose Ryan would be grateful to you. See you in Trst!
Alessandro - Ryan just asked some questions. An idea for
you: why don't you start your own post about your Slovenian
frustrations - you can then write as much as you want about
your fascist ideas and fight with everyone stupid enough to
reply to you. A title "I hate Slovenians even more than
Jews" would fit perfectly, don't you agree :-). I
suppose Ryan would be grateful to you. See you in Trst!
Alessandro!
You spend your time accusing Slovenians and Croats while it is so clear that you are tipical fascists.You keep talking about wrights of Italians in Croatia-well,they have hell much more wrights then Croats in Italy.If you come to ISTRA you'll see that at least 80%of streets have Italian names,that almost all signs are on Croatian AND ITALIAN.And I really don't know where did you heard that people can't speak Italian;in almost all shools Italian is,although not officialy,obligatory.
And will you please live TUDJMAN8not Tujman)at peace.Personally,I hate the guy,but I won't let anybody from the outside to speak dirt about him)by the way,how is your Italian government,I've herad you change it every week,aperently majority of Italian politicians is connected with mafia(more one fine product of Italian democratic society).
A message to Allesandro and others!
The homepage of lonelyplanet is not a place appropriate for
such a debate.
Jurij from Slovenia.