...so much? Half of the posts in this group is Americans
asking if it is safe to go to certain countries and if
there's racism. Yes people, it is safe to go to Latvia - the
country is not affected by war in Kosovo. No, there is no
more racism in Europe than in United States. I'm starting to
be sick of questions like these. Why do you people ask them?
Why would any place (except Kosovo, Albania, Yugoslavia) be
affected by the war? Just because they're close? Is
Washington state affected by riots in California? Hell no!
And the racism question... You know who we Europeans have a
problem with? You, the ones who ask that question. You
are the ones who obviously like the topic and who watch
if someone is being racist or not. If you don't piss
people off, no one will touch you. Use common sense, for
the love of God. Why would we be racist against you? Good
God people, get a grip on reality and ask relevant
questions in this group.
Cheers.
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I'm also sick of these idiotic questions... I'm from
Slovenia - ex Yugoslavia, so you can probably imagine
what's the first question people ask me...
Just for your info!
I saw already in some cafetirias in Moscow signs:
WE DON'T SERVE NATO COUNTRY CITIZENS.
These were the most gentle signs.
On demonstrations you could see signs like:
Clinton, Yugoslavia is not Monica, You can't give her a
blow j...!
And what I heard when talking to people about the NATO
countries. Well, just go and listen PERSONALLY.
Hope you;ll be back all right!!!
Bon Voyage guys.
You just don't go to the places where they have such signs.
If I were black, I don't think I'd ever walk into the house
that had KKK written on it, but that doesn't mean that the
entire country is like it. If you feel safe in USA, you
should feel SAFER anywhere in Europe, no matter what the
circumstances.
Well, I agree with your first sentiments, Marko. I am really
sick of seeing these 'Is it safe to go to X/Y/Z right now?'
posts. These people shoudl contact the appropriate
departments of their own governments if they are so
concerned. If they are still so uptight, they probably
should not be going abroad anyway, as any sort of new
experiences tend to upset such nervous dispositions.
The question of racism, however, is a true and valid one for
many nations and many people. Trends in differ in every
culture as to how people react to people who look different,
how men and women interact, etc. Claiming any different is
akin to denying the uniqueness of all the different cultures
in the world.
I partially agree. In my opinion no one (or very few people)
are racist unless provoked. If you go abroad and you look
and act different, I think people would be willing to learn
about where you are coming from, rather than criticise you.
Of course, there are also 'laws' of the country that you are
visiting and which should be obeyed - i.e. in Iran, I don't
think that a woman should walk around in a bathing suit. But
if she is dressed accordingly, people would realize that she
is trying to adapt to their culture and thus would be
willing to learn about hers.
Now we're getting somewhere. Most people who post these
sorts of questions are trying to get just exactly the
information they need in order to try and fit in in the
country they are heading to. Because the way Iranian society
will react to her is different than the way it will react to
a man.
I have gotten in arguments regarding the nature of racism in
E.Europe on this board before and don't wish to do it again.
But I think that some people's inquiries into the nature of
racism in some of these countries is valid. I have lived and
travelled all over the US and do not know very many people
who believe jokes and anecdotes about Jews/Blacks/Koreans to
be appropriate conversation. Yet in my travels in Russia, I
can recall at least one such instance with every Russian I
interacted with for any period of time. Additionally, I
think a Black American might be shocked to walk into a
university building and see graffiti reading 'Black Monkey
Go Back To Africa,' day after day after day (i.e., It was
never removed). A dark haired young exchange student might
get riled by being stopped and hassled by the police
every day. (It sure wore my Portegeuse neighbor down).
It doesn't neccesssarily make Russia 'racist', but it
indicates that, as a society, this particular area has a lot
to learn about the heterogeneous nature of our planet.
In my opinion, this is something a potential traveller has a
right to know about.
Now if only they'd stop with the 'Is it safe for Americans
to go Bavaria right now' nonsense.
I also occasionally grin at the 'Is it safe?' questions in
TT. But for Marko; it's not only the Americans who seem to
over-react here. I believe I'm from the same European
country as Marko and I must say we Europeans don't know much
better. My friend's mother just wanted to cancel her trip to
Rome because she's sure the war would affect Italy and she
wouldn't be safe. We managed to get her go but she's still a
bit unconfortable to go. So, that much about that. By the
way, I don't think it's very intelligent and fair to mock
Americans about their safety concerns. I know loads of my
fellow citizens who'd love to visit New York but are too
afraid.
many people, including us americans, realize that you can't
get the information you need to gauge the stability of a
region from a guidebook or the media (if the u.s. papers
even cover the area, it will be slanted, and if you can
access the local papers, they too tend to be slanted). The
entire purpose of posting these types of questions is to
find out, from people at the destination or people who have
recently been there, what the current atmosphere is.
By the way, when L.A. burned in the riots, NYC was also
affected with "sympathetic" rioting -- and that's a whole
lot further away than Washington, but I guess you'd have to
ask a local to know . . .
Fuck you all! I'm from washington and my city seatlle was
definitly \effected by the riots, don't act like Europe
lives in a vacume you pompus British cunt.
First to lole: please refrain from posts like those. I hope
you do participate in the discussion, but in the civilized
manner. Thank you.
I am aware that racism in some countries still exists. But
it is the part of the culture. I understand it is awkward
and makes one uncomfortable, but every traveler should rise
above ignorant remarks written on walls and look at the
nicer side of every country. If you inquire about racism
somewhere, I can right now bet money that you will encounter
some. Every country in the world is racist in some way, no
matter how. But if we inquired about racism and made our
travel decisions based on the answer, we'd never go
anywhere. I'm just saying that you should EXPECT certain
amount of racism and if there's more than you expected, just
try to ignore it (as much as possible) and if it's less...
excellent. Everyone should be prepared for it. Everyone of
us experienced it in some way or another. But it is the part
of the experience and it is irrelevent how much of it is
happening.
As for asking about region stability, I think these
questions are also irrelevant and need not be asked. The
wars are always well contained and if they spill over to the
neighboring countries, I can bet you will know about it,
just by reading your own LOCAL paper. Things like that don't
go unnoticed. The problem is that people ask those questions
based on the DISTANCE from the war - just because Dubrovnik,
Croatia is few miles from Kosovo, it doesn't mean that they
are affected. Legitimate questions don't bother me, it is
the fact that people associate vicinity of the war with
trouble. I believe that you might find that Russia is more
affected by war in Kosovo than let's say Croatia or
Slovenia.
Well, as a fair-haired, fair-skinned woman, I don't expect a
whole lot of racism when I travel. But I also do not travel
as broadly as some people do. I think a lot of these
questions arise with people who simply really have no idea
what to expect in a foreign culture. Not everybody knows to
"EXPECT certain amount of racism", so that's where the
question arises. It's not really an invalid question, it's
just a tiresome one.
As for what you've said about Kosovo, I also (as you know)
agree. I was really wondering when somebody would make a
mention of it. I think Russia probably is a
less-than-friendly place for a lot of Americans right now,
but that's for socio-political reasons (i.e. aggresive
feelings toward a NATO- nation) rather than for reasons of
immediate physical danger (i.e. bombs). For the most part
anyway.
Since you've incriminated Americans from the start in this
anyway, just give me a minute to excuse us for our ignorance
on the spread of war. We haven't really actually *had* one
here in over 130 years. So we assume that it may be just as
dangerous 30 miles away from the war as right in the middle
of it. . .
While the US is fairly diverse both culturally and
geologically, it's mind- boggling for even educated
Americans to imagine what it's like to live within a 3 hour
train ride of 3 different nations. I've never been to Europe
proper and I have no concept of it (European space).
Here's the flipside of that coin: whenever I mention to a
non-north-American that I'm from Florida, the response is
usually 'Ah, Miami.' Well, Miami is a good 10 hour drive
from the town I come from. Or how about the people who post,
asking whether there will be any signifigant temperature
difference between New York and Orlando, Florida
(Disneyworld)?
The above examples make it seem clear to me that a lot of
the confusion here has to do with people not having a clear
understanding of space. It's not a matter of intelligence
and not a matter of continental identity- it's something
that can only come with experience.
Sorry Marco but you're still off-base. Just about every
question concerning "is it safe to travel" has been about a
country that we in America have been told is affected by the
war -- even the poor canadians getting flamed for asking
about Greece -- well, over here, we've been shown pictures
of riots and demonstrations outside embassies, flag burnings
and a lot of anti-american, anti-western sentiment, even in
Greece. Not everybody has unlimited travel time. If you
only have two weeks to travel a year, you don't want to
spend it stressed out because the area you are travelling
through is dangerous in general or dangerous to your
particular nationality that day.
I think people who haven't cancelled their travel plans to
central/eastern europe or russia should be commended, not
flamed. Don't forget, the americas -- north, south and
central -- are incredibly huge, diverse places. Australia
and New Zealand are incredibly beautiful and the people
there are great. Asia is wicked cool and offers an
incredibly diverse view of cultures, religions, social and
political structures. Canadians and americans don't have to
"cross the pond" for culture, natural beauty or excitement
-- that seems to be something that most of the europeans on
this board don't seem to grasp. I can't tell you the number
of people I know in their 50s/60s who cancelled trips to
Europe this summer and are looking at South America instead.
And as for racism, I don't think I've ever seen worse racism
than when I was in Slovakia and saw how the Roma were
treated. And don't forget, it was that forward thinking
country, the Czech Republic, that actually proposed building
a wall to separate the Roma from the fine citizens of one
town. In America, especially NY, there are so many
different colors, and so many mixed colors, that you can't
blame us for worrying about countries that discriminate
based on ethnicity. You have to wonder how they treat
people of different races.
kudos, elizabeth, for your comment on the different concept
of space between europeans and north americans. i think
that's a big part of the problem. also for the pointer
that people should consult embassies and weather pages
before coming here.
marko, if you don't like the posts, nobody's forcing you to
read them. if it makes someone feel a little more secure,
a little safer and more confident, go to! and the more i
travel, the more i realize that it's the stupid questions
that should be asked.
i'm not american, but i do, in a small way, sympathize with
americans. people from other countries link the individual
american with his/her gov't, leading to innocent travellers
or ex-pats to be the recipients of undeserved
harrassment/expectations. ie. all americans love guns.
all americans are rich. all americans are ignorant of
culture. americans are war-lovers. i don't think there's
any country at this moment which is so loved and so hated
at the same time, often by the same people.
americans should be asking questions; who wants to spend a
long dreamed of holiday hiding?
speaking of which, it's time for me to leave this hiding
place, and go outside to put up with the carpet sellers who
have assumed that i'm a rich european with nothing better
to do than look in their shops all day long.
I think the main problem with some people in this branch is
the lack of empathy for people from other cultures. Marko,
you're a white man from a small European country and your
nationality or complexion are very unlikely to rise any
problems to you when abroad. But think of the Americans for
example. Even if the leaders of most European counries more
or less accept the bombings in Jugoslavia it's the poor
Americans (as always) who get the blame and are the
risk of being targets of (possible) aggression. I'm from
Scandinavia and I have never had to face aggression
because of my nationality. However, I was once mistaken for
a German in latin America. Some teenagers started yelling me
"Heil Hitler" and raising their hands to a nazi greeting.
They were not aggressive; it was perhaps consided as a some
sort of thoughtless bad joke. But all of a sudden I realised
something I had never thought before as a Scandinavian:
German tourists (who have simply nothing to do with the
atrocities of their past dictator) are at risk that that
sort of comments spoil their holiday every time they are on
holiday. So Marko, praise God you were born up north and try
to imagine how things would be if you were, let's say
(black) American, German or Serbian (yes, they are really
not all responsible for what their abominable leader is
doing). So, try not to blame people if they wish to visit a
place they are welcome.
Dear Marko and others,
I realize for Europeans that it might get a bit old to hear
these questions about safety issues, but to dismiss them as
irrelevant and not needed is ridiculous. You say that you
are bothered by the fact that people associate vicinity of
the war with trouble. I'm sorry if that bothers you. You
are lucky to be savy enough to know otherwise, but there
are many people in the world, especially non-Europeans who
do not know how war works. They are not experts on wars,
having maybe never experienced one in their lives. How are
they supposed to know that a few miles from a war zone will
or will not make a difference? Some of these people might
be spending life savings to go abroad and see other
places. I think, no matter how ignorant their questions
seem to you, they have the right to ask how safe a place
is. We can't all be as knowledgable as you.
By the way, concerning your question: "Why would any place
(except Kosovo, Albania, Yugoslavia) be affected by the
war?" Maybe you could ask the Macedonians that question.
All of you have raised some good points. First I have to
say to Pekka that I am not Scandinavian (unfortunately :)) -
I am Croatian. I do have to admit I make some assumptions
based on myself. I have lived in Croatia during the war and
the past 6 years I've been in America and I have traveled
extensively, so I understand how both places work. I didn't
mean to offend anyone, but you do have to admit that most
of those questions were asked by Americans. But I still
think that the questions regarding security and safety are
irrelevant. Just accept people for what they are. Pekka
mentioned the incident in S. America and I think that she
dealt with the problem very well - just brush it off,
ignore it and learn something from it. Racist people are
everywhere and we all know that they are extremely ignorant
and should be ignored. Maybe I'm being ignorant that
violence doesn't happen when you travel to 'iffy'
countries, but similar thing could happen to you in your
own home city.
I guess questions about safety don't bother me much, per
se. There is a recent post in which a girl heard a rumor
that Hungary will be taking refugees from Kosovo and she is
asking if the accomodation will be a problem. I consider
this to be a legitimate question. The ones that bother me
are "I'm going to Bavaria for three months. Will I be
affected by the war in Kosovo?" People like that don't even
know why they're asking the question and it is ambiguous.
the Hungary question was clear and to the point and can be
precisely answered. The second question is ridiculous and
questions like that should not be allowed. :)
I agree with Elizabeth on 'the distance problem'. It just
happens that most questions in this group are asked by
Americans. Maybe I should go to the North America group and
read some of the idiotic European postings. Sorry again, I
didn't mean to offend anyone.
I don't have to go there!
I live there. You understand nothing about our country and
about Russian-Serbian friendship and you are stiil trying
to discuss the things here.
Remember we can tell you are a foreigner in a second. Even
if you put on some authentic Russian look it won't help you
to look like one.
And the signs of serving you or not they put inside the
cafetiria, so when you realize it it's too late to reatret.
Also the media is making people feel anti NATO stronger and
stronger.
So keep on discussing the things you have no shit idea
about.
So this is the case we used to joke:
Rad vidyety tyebya bez petlyi na sheye, means "Glad to see
you without a rope on your neck"
Bon voyage.
To lole, First of all you live in Seattle, can you spell
it? Why is all that language needed? I'm a native new
yorker who now lives down southl Yes I remember the riots
in NY, Boston and LA as well as Detroit and Newark. I
would avoid those areas also. Though I do feel safer in
europe. To Katje, Slovenia is a beautiful country went
there in 1993 when the fighting was going on in Bosnia. As
an American I felt safe. I usualy find americans in europe
trend to speak louder than anyone else andhave limited
understands of the countries we are visiting. americans
also tend to bring our bias' to europe especially about
smoking. Remember we are the visitors and europe is not
Epcot center at disneyworld. alan
To lole, First of all you live in Seattle, can you spell
it? Why is all that language needed? I'm a native new
yorker who now lives down southl Yes I remember the riots
in NY, Boston and LA as well as Detroit and Newark. I
would avoid those areas also. Though I do feel safer in
europe. To Katje, Slovenia is a beautiful country went
there in 1993 when the fighting was going on in Bosnia. As
an American I felt safe. I usualy find americans in europe
trend to speak louder than anyone else andhave limited
understands of the countries we are visiting. americans
also tend to bring our bias' to europe especially about
smoking. Remember we are the visitors and europe is not
Epcot center at disneyworld. alan
Marco, you are right that questions like 'is Bavaria
affected by the Kosovo war' do seem a bit silly, and
perhaps most of the these types of questions were asked by
Americans (though a English-looking name, doesn't mean the
person is American), but still to lump all Americans into
this category is wrong. I am American and have been living
in Europe for 6 years (so like you, I know how both places
work). I've lived 2 years in Eastern Europe and 4 years in
Scandinavia. Like you, I am not that bothered, per se, by
security issues. But, when I wanted to travel from the
Czech Republic to Latvia and Lithuania four years ago many
Czechs told me, "Are you crazy? It is so dangerous there.
Don't go! You will definitely be robbed or attacked on the
trains, etc., etc." So, these were Czechs, not Americans,
who were worried about saftey issues, and there wasn't even
a war going on in Latvia or Lithuania!! And then here in
Scandinavia, I have done a lot of traveling in nearby
Estonia. I've had some Finns tell me, "Oh, it's so
dangerous there! People are attacked there, it's very
unstable, etc." Again, to make my point, these people were
Finns, NOT Americans, who were worrying, and there is not
even a war going on in Estonia. I should point out, that I
am NOT claiming that all Finns or all Czechs make stupid
statements about safety. I only mention these examples to
show that it's not just Americans who do these things, but
also Europeans. I don't blame you, Marco, for being
annoyed by some of the questions, just don't blame only one
group of people for them.
Just yesterday when I was typing my letter, some guys
bombed the American/British consulate in Ekatyerinburg
causing very serious material damage.
Probably the Western Media won't even mention it, because
watching the CNN or alike broadcasts, you can see the HEAVY
Censorship about the events in Yugoslavia.
This case wasn't the first one.
A few weeks ago some guys in Moscow tried to launch a
grenade on the US embassy. Probably that guy never been in
the army, otherwise he would have succeeded in launching
the grenades. The Russian RPG (grenade launcher) has two
safety grips and he released only one and of course failed
to shoot. The only thing he did was only firing a few shots
from his Kalashnyikov.
Oh, and what about those NATO ammunitions containing
Uranium? Those glorious guys dropped quite a significant
amount of them already and keep on dropping still. Of
course the NATO tried to refuse the fact, but was forced to
admit the evidence at last. After that, even in new NATO
member countries, people started to look at those things in
a new and not very pleasant for NATO way.
I returned to the States lst week after spending almost
three weeks in Belgrade. I arrived in Yugoslavia 4 days
after the airstrikes started. No one knew I was a foreigner
unless I started to speak English (even though I have blond
hair and blue eyes). And even though 5 rich white guys
control all the English-language media, I would defintely
say that I trust CNN and SkyNews more than I trust Politika
and Studio B, who broadcast rumors just to get people
riled. And although I wasn't alive in pre-war Nazi Germany,
I have a very good idea of what it's like after all that
time in Belgrade. I'd talk more about this, but I'm pressed
for time...
The readings have been very interesting. Having been in
the States for a while and having spent most of my life in
on insignificant tiny former SU country, I can only add
that its difficult for Europeans to understand that US is
huge and though divided to 51 states, one and the same
country (the same sitcoms, the same toilet paper, the
same cars, the same language). In Europe at the same time
you can travel through 3 countries in 9 hours. In these
9 hours you pass three different language and money zones,
different systems for paying gas and bying tickets for
public transportation. Every single country is confided to
that space they live and as a rule is rather xenophobic to
strangers (different nationality or race, just stranger)
Every country in Europe has its share of jokes about
their neighbour country but it doesn't mean racism - its
sort of neighbourly love :). We in Europe have learned to
live with the fact that the rest of the world is not like
us. For Americans this notions is difficult to grasp.
If in US you're asked "Where you're from" and you say
Baltics and they ask "Oh is the war really horroble".
Then there's nothing else to do but shrug your shoulder
and say "Oh not really". There are ignorant people every-
where. People have right to worry it doesn't mean that
every silly question has to be answered. MARKO I was in
Croatia last summer, I have a good friend there, I
absolutely loved the country, I am trying to come again
in June. All the best!
Hi, I'm an American living in Vienna, and after reading the
above posts, I can definitely understand both sides of the
story. On one hand, you really can't blame Americans for
seeming so aloof, because, as some have already said, the
U.S. is so large, and everything so standardized, and so
peaceful (meaning we haven't had a war in a very long time,
and are totally clueless as to the effects of WWI and II in
Europe), that they think everywhere else is the same. We
really have no concept of living in such small countries
where it takes a few hours to go from border to border.
Furthermore, most Americans don't even know where many
European countries are located on the map. They have no
idea how far Bavaria is from Kosovo. I think most
questions of this type are asked in all honesty, with no
intent to demean.
The other hand, is that Europeans are sometimes so hard on
Americans. I know here in Europe they study much more
geography in schools than we do. They know more about
international politics and their neighbouring countries
because it's something they've had to deal with their whole
lives. I can imagine that to a European, a question like
how far Bavaria is from Kosovo must be a joke, but don't
forget it's just as funny when we hear Europeans afraid of
visiting NYC because of the violence.
Dear Worry,
Actually some Western media did cover the bombings in
Yekaterinburg. I saw it on both BBC World and Deustch
Welle TV, the German news channel.
I will not defend all the actions of NATO. They have made
some serious mistakes, that is for sure. I even question,
if they are the ones who should be taking care of this
situation. But, on the other hand, how can the ethnic
cleansing of the Albanian Kosovars be justified? You
seemed to be angered by NATO's actions, but what about the
unspeakable things the Serb government has been and is
doing to the Albanian Kosovars: Raping, Murdering, Burning
villages! These things were going on before NATO'S
bombings.
You are right, though, that the Western media is biased.
That's why I appreciate your posts, because it is very
important to hear all sides to a story. I think the media
tries to make things black and white. In the West they
want to say that only NATO is good and only Serbia is bad.
This, of course, is ridiculous. Things are never that
clear. But, I'm sure that all medias are biased, including
yours in Russia. I have Russian friends who live in
Udmurtia, and they told me that they have heard almost
nothing about the genocide of the Albanian Kosovars by the
Sebian authorities. So, I guess in Russian too, "you can
see the HEAVY Censorship about the events in Yugoslavia."
There is racism in Europe. In Moscow,A Black US Marine was
severly beaten and the perpatrators got away with it. They
even boast about it on Russian TV! After seeing the movie
"Broken English" I believe the Croats are racist and never
tolerent of people of color. The African-Americans who post
on racial concerns do it to avoid the pitfalls of
encoutntering skinheads and other racist thugs who poison
the European Union. It's better to be informed than to be
unaware of the facts.
... Croats are racist, eh? Aren't you being racist now when
you base your opinions on a movie? I could easily say that
USA is violent, because I saw Rambo 1. Please don't make
assumptions like that. There are no more racist people in
Croatia than in USA or anywhere else for that matter. Take
people on individual basis - not all blondes are stupid, not
all white people belong to KKK and not all Irish are drunks.
As for TV propaganda, every country in the world has that.
People would attack their governments everyday if there were
no propaganda. In US (I get an impression) is that they use
'if-we-don't-talk-about-it,-it-didn't-really-happen' method,
while in Serbia they use propaganda to actually rally their
people, which is understandable. Needless to say, you want
to hide all the bad things that you did.
I do have to admit that we Europeans are sometimes hard on
Americans. In some cases it's only a joke, sometimes it's
envy and sometimes we're just mean. I guess our cultures
differ quite a bit, although they are very similar.
Europeans cherish their history, while Americans don't. I
guess we live in the past and that is what we go by. I don't
know why, but that is just the way it is. CURTIS - Europeans
do study a lot of geography, true, but shouldn't Americans
do it too? Let's assume that Europeans know about Europe and
Americans know about USA. What about the knowledge of the
rest of the world. I bet Europeans know Mexico better than
Americans, although Americans are directly attached to it
and directly affected by people and culture. But we are
getting into education issues right now and that's not what
this group is about.
I'll be back later to continue....
Racism is everywhere, I think. I hate to generalize, but I
seriously doubt that there is any place in the world where
the concept of "Different- not like 'Us'" does NOT exist. I
suppose we grow accustomed to the ways racism is practiced
in our own culture.
If you ask any young Black man in the US whether there is
racism in the US, I'm sure he would unequivocally agree.
Statistics will tell you that a clean-cut 20 year old black
american male is more likely to be followed by clerks in a
store or stopped by the police than 20 year old white male
'Phishhead'.
Racism is a fact, it is everywhere. I certainly hope that
the people who post here are not trying to insinuate that
there exists no racism in their homelands- if that is their
intent, then they are certainly deluding themselves.
I think the real question, and the way it should be posed,
is 'What is the NATURE of Racism in ________?'
To Marko - you are right about the racism issue (as well
as Elizabeth). Croatians cannot be any more racist than
any other country. In some countries it may be more
institutionalized, by laws, etc., but nevertheless, it
exists equally in all countries.
Concerning the belief by Europeans that Americans don't
know much about geography, I have to say that belief is a
bit hypocritical. When I first came to Europe 6 years ago,
I heard a lot of people tell me how ignorant Americans
are. I had to admit that they were right. I personally am
a geography fan, but I know that many Americans don't know
much about other countries, and that there is some shocking
examples of ignorance in the U.S. BUT what bothered me was
that the statement implied that Europeans themselves are
never ignorant about geography, and I soon found that to be
untrue in many cases. Actually, I found it true for many
Central and Eastern Europeans, but not for Western
Europeans. I find that people in Western Europe know very
little about Central and Eastern Europe. I lived in
Central Europe for 2 years, and I was always shocked by
Western Europeans who continued to called the Czech
Republic, Czechoslovakia, and who had no clue about the
different countries of the Balkins. Don't even try to ask
some of them the difference between Slovakia and Slovenia!
My German friend had no understanding of the 3 Baltic
states. I know many Finns who when I asked them how many
countries are in the E.U., they answered: 25?, 19?, 10?
Some even thought Switzerland and Norway were in the E.U.!!
And this is their own union!!! One Finnish friend told me
that her husband was a Finnish diplomat in Paris, and that
many French diplomats thought that Finland was a part of
the Soviet Union, and they wouldn't believe her when she
said it wasn't true! These were diplomats not just people
on the street! So, you can understand that I was a bit
angry that I had to hear how stupid Americans were, only to
find that many Europeans don't know much about their own
continent, not to mention my British friend who thought San
Fransico was a U.S. state! And that Florida was in
California! Perhaps there seem to be so many ignorant
Americans because the U.S. is such a big country, almost
the size of Europe. It's a bit unfair to compare all of
America with just one country of Europe, since most
countries of Europe are only about the size of a U.S.
state. So, if you counted all the ignorant people of
Spain, Iceland, Belarus, Malta, France, Moldova,
Liechtenstein, etc., then you would probably find that
there are as many ignorant people as in the U.S. So, my
feeling about ignorance of geography, is the same as that
of racism: You can find an equal number of people in every
country who are racist and an equal number of people in
every country who are ignorant about other countries.
I want to say that my friends were studying in Skopje and
one was in the American embassy while people tried to burn
it down. the state department made them come home. so now
I wouldn't exactly think it would be safe to visit at this
point. but you are right, it is not Yugo, Albania or
Kosovo, so we don't need to worry about it. but I want to
add that Croatia and Bosnia have also been war torn,
Americans don't know what is safe, especially since this
fucking world is so anti-american. not to mention we get
fed a lot of propaganda news ourself.
Some of the responses imply that Europeans intuit -- or
possibly just believe -- that wars tend to stay contained
within the national boundaries of the warring nations.
Americans, so far removed not just from so many
elbow-jostlingly-close nationalities, but also historically
from war itself, are not born with this same perspective. We
are grossly inexperienced in that arena, and like a person
unfamiliar with the crime of burglary, for instance, should
that person be chastised for their innocent na∩vetΘ? It is
unfortunate, rather, that so many on this planet are not so
na∩ve. Yes, America is involved with most of Europe in
trying to squelch what they consider an offense to humanity
with an offense to humanity. I have not authorized this; I
just hope that people of other nations will be astute enough
to recognize this fact when I visit their countries. The
fact is, we all know there are loose screws the world over,
and what we need to know as tourists is just how riled their
national media has gotten them. We can't blame "the people"
(what is that?), but what we want to know about a country
before we go there is how tolerant or even encouraging they
are of such misapplied, targeted hate.
I'm not an American (I'm Canadian -- yes, there is indeed
quite a large difference), but I was put off by your post;
in fact, I'm inclined to think you did it to insure you'd
get a response, otherwise you'd fall victim to the very
ignorance for which you criticize "Americans". If you are
so sick of people inquiring whether or not it is safe to go
to Europe because of Kosovo, then ignore them -- why get
yourself so worked up over other people's perceived
ignorance, especially in such a casual forum as this
Thorntree? Furthermore, why is it so inconceivable to
acknowledge that people can be plagued by fears that are
sometimes irrational. You have to understand that the news
is almost completely composed of footage from Kosovo, as
well as various US embassies being vandalized/attacked;
this coupled with the fact that Europe is a lot smaller
geographically than the US or Canada could easily instigate
large-scale possibly misplaced fears about the potential
safety of many eastern European travellers from US or
Canada. I myself, who have been to Europe several times am
a little wary of going to Greece. Why shouldn't I be?
Greece isn't that far from the war and has ambiguous
political allegiance. My fear may very well be in vain;
that is why I seek assurance from those who can give me an
accurate picture of the situation. This feedback could
influence whether or not I go. Why is it so difficult to
understand that people can have irrational fears? Do you
never have such fears yourself?
I'm not an American (I'm Canadian -- yes, there is indeed
quite a large difference), but I was put off by your post;
in fact, I'm inclined to think you did it to insure you'd
get a response, otherwise you'd fall victim to the very
ignorance for which you criticize "Americans". If you are
so sick of people inquiring whether or not it is safe to go
to Europe because of Kosovo, then ignore them -- why get
yourself so worked up over other people's perceived
ignorance, especially in such a casual forum as this
Thorntree? Furthermore, why is it so inconceivable to
acknowledge that people can be plagued by fears that are
sometimes irrational. You have to understand that the news
is almost completely composed of footage from Kosovo, as
well as various US embassies being vandalized/attacked;
this coupled with the fact that Europe is a lot smaller
geographically than the US or Canada could easily instigate
large-scale possibly misplaced fears about the potential
safety of many eastern European travellers from US or
Canada. I myself, who have been to Europe several times am
a little wary of going to Greece. Why shouldn't I be?
Greece isn't that far from the war and has ambiguous
political allegiance. My fear may very well be in vain;
that is why I seek assurance from those who can give me an
accurate picture of the situation. This feedback could
influence whether or not I go. Why is it so difficult to
understand that people can have irrational fears? Do you
never have such fears yourself?
I understand your statment and I dont think that this is
the place to ask questions about little fears but as an
Israely jew a couple of peaple who are well traveled told
me to not where my star of David chain in some countrys I
said ok and didnt evan think about it until this letter
dont you think its strange that I took it as completly
obvias that I should hide my religion there must be
something to the "dirty jew etc.." comments that I have
heard secand hand and for the record I would keep the star
on my neck if I was traviling to the states I would be
happy to hear from someone who has been to europe and
thinks other wise but until then the star stays hidden.
Marko and all you other Europeans who keep on generalizing
all Americans: STOP saying "Americans do this, Americans do
that, Americans don't" etc. Don't tell me or others what
Americans know or don't know. Until you put on my shoes
and skin your opinions are just off base. I am so sick of
the stereotype "stupid American" played up by Europeans.
When people ask questions it means they want to learn more
and be aware of the situation. You should not put people
down for asking legit questions. By the way I'm willing to
bet that Americans DO know more about Mexico than most
Europeans.
How many US states? 52?
Yes, there are predjudices (sorry about the spelling)
everywhere, and dangers everywhere. We were concerned about
our daughter and her boyfriend traveling to third world
countries because of attitudes toward women and health
issues as well as political. Well I am pleased to tell you
they have had many wonderful experiences interacting with
the local people of each country. They are now in Europe
and I pray daily for their continued health and safety.
Meanwhile back in the states we have had horrendous
shootings in high schools (human caused disasters) and
massive distruction due to tornadoes (nature caused
disasters) We have also have a friend die of cancer, and a
relative die of old age. So my point? Enjoy the
oppoutunities that are given to you. Always be respectful
and polite, to yourself and others. Live each day with the
knowledge that it may be your last or the last day of
someone you care about. Don't do things that may cause
regret. Oh, they convinced me to join them backpacking in
Europe. At first I thought "I can't do that, and listed all
the reasons. When I ran out of ezcuses, I realized that I
could go, and we will all have exciting adventures and
special memories to share and bring us closer together. I
can't wait for the next two weeks to pass. Be wise, and
enjoy what the Lord has given you. Take Care.
Generally, Americans are less informed about what they can
expect in other countries. As a previous poster mentioned,
it's a question of space. Unlike most Europeans, none of us
live within a few hours of several neighboring countries.
So many Americans, quite reasonably, ask the question: what
can I expect? Hey, how the hell else do you find out?
It's a totally different cultural perspective growing up
entirely in America. In my opinion, someone who claims to
be more culturally "enlightened" than his American
counterpart is demonstrating just the opposite by making
that claim.
Also, it is an individual thing. I have years of road time
logged and feel quite comfortable going anywhere (Algeria,
Iraq, Yugoslavia not included). The more borders you cross,
the more at ease you feel crossing them. American's just
don't have the border crossing opportunities that exist in
Europe.
You are all worrying about racism? I agree with Herbert's
point about a black marine being beaten in Moscow...sick.
But Marko, how can you say that the Croats are not racist!!
I have friends there who are not tolerant at the best of
times, and just take a look at their history! Pavelic
killed millions of Jews, Serbs and Gypsies in WW2, and the
formation of the football club 'Hrvatski Dragovoljac'
(means Croatian volunteer soldier and is mainly a
fascist team) shows that 50 years doesn't change a nation.
Although the racism in Croatia is a minority thing...their
people are capable of being much more vicious than a lot of
racists in other places.
Anyway Marko, I love Croatia anyway, and if anyone is racist
to me, I just say "COME ON THEN!!!" and that's usually the
end of it!!
Tommy
Tommy!
First of all,in Croatia there is much less fascists then in many other countries(including the US).Pavelic did kill lot of people(but not millions)and big part of that people were Croats.Only very small number suported Pavelic and on each fascists there were at least 5-6 partizans.You said that nation can change in 50 years.That's so stupid.During WWII there were nations where there were much more fascists(for example,Baltic states)and I really don't see why should Croatia be marked.
You say that some of your friends aren't tollerent.Well,lets say that your father or grandfather was killed by Japs or Germans in WWII ;how tollerent would you be towards them(not now,but over then),could you shake the hand of your fathers killer and say no hard feelings.I don't think so.
Besided,in the last 50 years Americans killed more inocent people then Croats in 1000 years.
Okay, I accept that I was wrong on a great many points about
Croatia. Sorry. Anyway, I wasn't trying to slag Croatia
off, as I like it very much.
Tommy
all you guys are worying about racism in usa and europe,
Just take a good look on the globe on the botom half you'll
fing a huge continent callEd AUSTRALIA. IT IS ABOUT 22000 KM
FROM EUROPE far enough?
here you find more racism than anywhere in the world.. i
know i live here, i am originaly from central europe.
i only wanted to say racism all over the world .. not only
in europe and usa.