I have been reading TT over the past month or so and
observed many 'conversations' about so called 'women
travellers'. Comments such as 'Is it safe for women?' or
'Will I be harassed?'. At the risk of starting a
controversial thread I really have to ask the following:
why is it that there is a general inclination for men, and
not women, to travel as lone travellers to remote, 'hard-
core', dangerous (and so on) parts of the world? Do you
think that women in this day and age are still subject to
the 'prejudices' of an older and less enlightened
generation? Are they in some way conditioned to expect that
because they are women, they will attract trouble? This is
not to say that women choose not to travel because of such
reasons, but that they are conditioned to EXPECT attention
because of their gender? Are we right to assume that men in
other parts of the world carry the same attitudes towards
women as men of our own country do? Do men head out in fear
of their own safety? What do they fear? Please read my
words carefully before commenting, slam me if you will, but
to anyone who has something serious to say, I at least
would like to know what it is. I will post in other TT
branches and judge the reactions......
[There are 20 posts - the latest was added on Tue 25 May, 4:01]
Use the form at the end of this page to add your own post.
Topics
| Thorn Tree
| Home
Maybe in the country that you come from, you are not
subject to these prejudices against women - that is
wonderful.
However, we must be aware of the fact that much of our
globe consists of societies where the religeon and culture
dictate the way women are viewed as individuals.
Of course women are subject to extreme prejudices in some
cultures - think of the house arrested women in
Afghanistan, massively widespread female genital
mutilation, forced marriages at very young ages in India,
Africa, the list goes on...
This is the reality of women in MOST of the world, whereas
we of the relatively small developed portions of the world
think we should and will be treated as stong, independent
equals everywhere...of course this is not the case; how
could the people in a country where women's rights don't
exist see a Western woman as this vison of independence
when their own mothers and daughters are subjugated?
Therefore, the way female travelers are treated will be
solely based on the attitudes of the culture you are
traveling INTO, rather than the one you bring WITHIN
yourself. We must keep this in mind, and I think most
women travelers on the TT are totally aware of this. Men,
too.
It would be great to think that anywhere you go, you would
be observed as an equal and respected as such, but the
simple truth is that the world is a wonderfully diverse and
fascinating place, partly because of these differences in
attitudes and culture, some good, some bad, but diverse
nonetheless...and the truth is, would we really need to
travel if the cultures and social structures were the same
everywhere we went?
Hey hey Shazzer and hello Suzie
Umm, have to agree with Susie on this one. But yeah, of
course there are sooooo many places that it would just be
insane to travel around on your own, but then why bother?
I have always found that the so called old
fashioned attitudes to women have been very helpful indeed.
The obvious fear for your safety that many people have has
resulted in numerous offers of help, wether that may be
going out of their way to drop you off where you need to be,
or offering free accomodation just to know that you are
safe.
Sod equal opps in this case.
Women are often physically smaller and weaker than men, so
this means there is a higher likelihood that a woman could
be physically overpowered by a bad person. Bullies look for
easy victims, and a small woman is an easier target than
some big, hulking man. The elderly are often victims of
crime in the USA for the same reason. I think this is why
women have more concerns about their physical safety. It is
because they are often more vulnerable.
Thanks for your intelligent replies. To #3 - I do wholly
respect your views but do you think that physical
'weakness' can be overcome to some extent by a 'stronger'
mental attitude. Do you all think confidence, or the way
you 'carry' yourself, has a lot to do with how one is
percevied in other parts of the world, rather than ones
physical stature, or gender? I have an Irish friend who is
short, female and incredibly gutsy. She is still on her way
around the globe after having had some great adventures
(fun and not so fun) but she has never been attacked or
picked on because of her gender. I admire her and would
like to follow her example but am curious to know just how
exceptional she is. Thanks...this is a great discussion!!
As a woman (medium size and street smart), I feel more
vulnerable, similar to what #3 was saying. I've done solo
travel - India, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Mauritius and a bit in
Africa and generally haven't had too many problems. I have
been groped a couple of times while walking on the street
(crowded street, broad daylight) and that pisses me off! In
many places, I have certainly attracted more attention as a
solo woman and been hassled more than a man would be.
~
There are places I would not travel to because I feel that I
am more likely to be physically threatened - whether this is
assault, rape, robbery or murder! I feel this way for most
of Africa and some of South America - safety isn't a solo
woman traveller, safety is a group. I hate to think that,
but it is a sad reality. Some women may go alone and
probably most will be okay, but it can be risky and I prefer
to take more precautions.
~
There are other places that I would not feel as comfortable
travelling to, but I may feel safe. I put parts of the
Middle East in this category. I haven't felt physically
threatened in these places, but as a solo woman, I can not
necessarily do the same things as men. I may not have the
same opportunities, be given the same respect, etc.
~
Generally, I feel sorry for the state of women in the 3rd
world. As an American woman, I have no many opportunities
and can do anything with my life. My "sisters" in other
parts of the world are often condemned to a miserable life -
female children are less desired than male children (in much
of Asia - India, China, Taiwan, Korea, etc), given less
health care than boys, receive less education than their
brothers. In large parts of Africa, female genital
mutilation is praticed. In much of the Middle East, from
puberty women must be covered. Things don't get easier after
marriage either. One of my best friends is a Pakistani woman
and she says that if she was to be born again, she would
pray that she was born male. That is really a sad statement!
As women we're at risk. That's the reality we live with EVERY DAY of our lives. I think many men don't realize this.
I certainly believe that the way you present yourself to
the 'outside world' has a lot to do with how you are
treated. I certainly would not avoid a so-called hard-
core/underdeveloped/'adventurous' destination because I
felt threatened as a woman. On th eother hand I am
reasonably well-informed about world affairs and can make
informed decisions about where I go and what can happen
when I'm there.
~
I go about my daily business, travels, work, relationships
as a confident and capable person. I think this shows to
the casual observer, and I have never been subjected to any
form of harassment, personal violence, lascivious
treatment/remarks etc etc.
~
Some countries such as Algeria are dangerous because there
is an active movement against foreigners (and locals for
that matter!). I have been caught up in civil unrest in
Central Africa, but I would go back there tomorrow. I
realise that Africa is the kind of place where
unrest/wars/danger can flare up at any time. It is a risk I
choose to take. On the other hand I love going to Singapore
(a bit closer to home) but my chances of getting run over
by a bus or mad cyclist is greater than being shot in
Africa.
~
I guess it comes down to why you travel in the first place.
For some, they want a glimpse of the other side of the
world and that will satisfy their curiosity. Others (me
included) will always be off somewhere. Ten years ago I
told my then boyfriend, at the end of our relationship,
that when he is an 80 year old grandpa taking his grand
kiddies to Disneyland (or Disney Planet - by then!), I will
be a wrinkly old woman wandering the Himalayas or boating
down some jungle-cloaked river. But I'll be happy and so
will he, so what the heck!!
~
But then that's what I want from MY life and I will go as
far as I can to see that I get the most out of it. Is this
relevant? Oh well........
I have a keen interest in historical travelogues and those
who are interested in the subject should read accounts of
such women as Isabella Bird (Africa & the world), Isabelle
Eberhardt (North Africa), Gertrude Bell (Iraq & the Middle
East), Freya Stark (Middle East & Saudi).et al. If anyone
ever feels that women in this day and age face social
prejudices then you should read about these women's lives.
The question is complex - as good questions are. Islamic
attitudes toward women for example. They range from
respecting women as heads of countries to the abominable
treatment in today's Afghanistan. And the "progressive" USA
has yet to come even close to a woman president.
~
As for traveling, much depends on attitude and respect for
local customs. I remember one girl, traveling in Pakistan.
who thought the male white flared dress shirt made a cute
mini-skirt dress. Any local thought she was simply wearing
a man's shirt, with no pants on. She wondered why she was
hassled. Prostitutes in Iran typically worked the roads
outside of Teheran. Women travelers wondered why they were
hassled when they hitch-hiked. Duh.
~
Fortunately, most places I've been there is a very high
respect towards "guests and visitors" and special
exemptions for their mistakes and blunders, -- at least
among the average {good} majority. Gangs and criminals are
a threat to locals and foreigners, male and female alike.
~
For me, a male, I feel far safer walking the back streets
of most "un-developed" areas I've visited than many cities
of the "developed" "liberated" countries.
~
Right now, in Alaska, I am warned that there is a severe
danger to people from spring bears outside of town. It is
unique in history that so many of us think we have the
"right" to travel un-protected and un-molested. It is a
luxury most humans (or other animals) have never expected.
~
~
I think this guy has a very good point. Which is that you
should go off into the world armed with as much information
about your destination as possible. No one can forsee the
unforseeable but even if you know a bit of background to
the country's situation, it may give you the edge in a
tricky situation. I also am constantly astounded when I see
western men and women in Islamic or conservative countries
baring themselves, being larks and generally just being
prats (and I use this word to refer to both men and women).
I really do cringe and feel embarassed. It is a bit of a
paradox though, because through travelling a person matures
and develops, but some folks just go out there and have
quite clearly not learned a thing. This is a good
thread.....
"Are they in some way conditioned to expect that because they are women, they will attract trouble?" You bet. That conditioning keeps us (hopefully) alive. Forget foreign countries for a minute. How many women feel comfortable walking around at night in their own town; don't get apprehensive when alone in a parking lot at night and one male walks through; or aren't totally aware that the man she just met might be some wacko who attempts to physically harm her? Even just walking down the street she knows that a 'situation' can occur at any turn. This is the known. Travelling to another country brings the possibility of different threats. You pose an interesting question - what do men fear?
Men fear pretty much the same things women would fear. The
chances of being raped are lower for men, and the AVERAGE
man would be more intimidating (physically) than the average
woman (as for the "choosing the easy victim" point), but men
could be robbed or murdered just as well as women could.
Some places (especially Muslim countries) would be harder
for women to travel in (not necessarily more dangerous), but
the reason that there are less women doing rough travelling
(if indeed there ARE less), would be also the way THEY were
brought up in their so-called enlightened environment. I
think anyone thinking he lives in an entirely equal society
is kidding himself, we still have a long way to go. Men
still have more than a trace of "macho" behavior and
attitude, and women still tend to be more "delicate", in
general. I think less women picture themselves as
solo-travellers in 3rd world countries also because of the
way they picture their status in their own society (are
there as many female as there are male builders, miners,
soldiers, etc. in YOUR society?). However, I'm glad that
women doing hardcore travelling is becoming more common, and
I'm sure that in a generation or two, there will be no male
dominance in this field at all, as I really don't think the
risks involved in travelling should deter women more than
men.
I read the question and thought to myself - good one.
Unfortunately the replies are too long and from what I can
gather to serious so I can't be bothered reading them.
Pretty irrelevant but thought you might want to know...
first of all, it so good to see a thread like this *not*
degenerate into insults. hooray!
moving on... as a young woman from the u.s. who often travels
solo to some places considered "dangerous" or remote, i am
frequently discouraged and warned by my 'enlightened'
american friends, family, and coworkers. usually one of the
main reasons cited is that im female. nothing makes my
parents happier than a call home saying im going to my next
destination with others that ive met, particularly if some of
them are male.
in addition to the more serious crimes discussed above, which
men and women deal with, i would say women certainly get
alarger share of the more subtle, persistant annoyances (not
a danger so much as a constant irritation) - such as certain
parts of the world where it is hard for a woman to walk a few
blocks without men approaching to offer advice,
companionship, (a "place to stay", etc), etc. guys ive
travelled with in the past never even realized this happened.
Susie, when I was in Turkey a few years back I had a very
illuminating event happen to me. I was walking in a town
in central Turkey (Pammukale, if memory serves me right)
with an Australian woman, dressed in quite conservative
fashion. Susan saw something up ahead that she was
interested in and ran ahead of me...I was on a bit of a
rise, so I could see the whole thing. As she left my side
and went forward I could see the reaction of the men who
noticed her for the first time change, focusing on her and
shouting things. Nothing bad happened, but I will never
forget watching her move from a world in which she had a
male "protector" to one in which she was on her own.
I am not a petite female. At 190cm or 6' 3" and of a healthy weight I can not be considered "a small female who atracts attention". That is only because i am so ludicrously tall. When I walk into a room I am almost always noticed. And weather it is because a man feels threatened or for other reasons I am often approached and regularly hassled. I think that beeing a female certainly means that you have to take more care, weather you are petite or freakishly tall. And I live in a "more developed" society (Sydney Aust.) and fear walking in many areas at night. I would not contemplate catching a train on my own at night.
In "less developed nations'? I can only speak from my experiences in Indonesia. In a remote part of Borneo on the island of Kalimantan I was accosted in a market place in a small village that sees few western tourists. I do not think that there were any intentions of harm towards myself, however with approximately 15 men surrounding me I could not help but feel threatened as their interest in my presence had not abated after approximately half an hour. I think if my travelling comanions had left my sight and I was left on my own I would have begun to panic. Meanwhile, my fair headed, petite female friends were ignored.
My two points are mearly that as a female you do have to be very weary of certain cercumstances and this warning is too all females and not merely the delicate looking ones.
I am not a petite female. At 190cm or 6' 3" and of a healthy weight I can not be considered "a small female who atracts attention". That is only because i am so ludicrously tall. When I walk into a room I am almost always noticed. And weather it is because a man feels threatened or for other reasons I am often approached and regularly hassled. I think that beeing a female certainly means that you have to take more care, weather you are petite or freakishly tall. And I live in a "more developed" society (Sydney Aust.) and fear walking in many areas at night. I would not contemplate catching a train on my own at night.
In "less developed nations'? I can only speak from my experiences in Indonesia. In a remote part of Borneo on the island of Kalimantan I was accosted in a market place in a small village that sees few western tourists. I do not think that there were any intentions of harm towards myself, however with approximately 15 men surrounding me I could not help but feel threatened as their interest in my presence had not abated after approximately half an hour. I think if my travelling comanions had left my sight and I was left on my own I would have begun to panic. Meanwhile, my fair headed, petite female friends were ignored.
My two points are mearly that as a female you do have to be very weary of certain cercumstances and this warning is too all females and not merely the delicate looking ones.
I am not a petite female. At 190cm or 6' 3" and of a healthy weight I can not be considered "a small female who atracts attention". That is only because i am so ludicrously tall. When I walk into a room I am almost always noticed. And weather it is because a man feels threatened or for other reasons I am often approached and regularly hassled. I think that beeing a female certainly means that you have to take more care, weather you are petite or freakishly tall. And I live in a "more developed" society (Sydney Aust.) and fear walking in many areas at night. I would not contemplate catching a train on my own at night.
In "less developed nations'? I can only speak from my experiences in Indonesia. In a remote part of Borneo on the island of Kalimantan I was accosted in a market place in a small village that sees few western tourists. I do not think that there were any intentions of harm towards myself, however with approximately 15 men surrounding me I could not help but feel threatened as their interest in my presence had not abated after approximately half an hour. I think if my travelling comanions had left my sight and I was left on my own I would have begun to panic. Meanwhile, my fair headed, petite female friends were ignored.
My two points are mearly that as a female you do have to be very weary of certain cercumstances and this warning is too all females and not merely the delicate looking ones.
I am not a petite female. At 190cm or 6' 3" and of a healthy weight I can not be considered "a small female who atracts attention". That is only because i am so ludicrously tall. When I walk into a room I am almost always noticed. And weather it is because a man feels threatened or for other reasons I am often approached and regularly hassled. I think that beeing a female certainly means that you have to take more care, weather you are petite or freakishly tall. And I live in a "more developed" society (Sydney Aust.) and fear walking in many areas at night. I would not contemplate catching a train on my own at night.
In "less developed nations'? I can only speak from my experiences in Indonesia. In a remote part of Borneo on the island of Kalimantan I was accosted in a market place in a small village that sees few western tourists. I do not think that there were any intentions of harm towards myself, however with approximately 15 men surrounding me I could not help but feel threatened as their interest in my presence had not abated after approximately half an hour. I think if my travelling comanions had left my sight and I was left on my own I would have begun to panic. Meanwhile, my fair headed, petite female friends were ignored.
My two points are mearly that as a female you do have to be very weary of certain cercumstances and this warning is too all females and not merely the delicate looking ones.
Susie mentioned an irish friend, i think for an irish woman
she's not extrodinarily unusal. The trick with anywhere you
don't know is to be confident and relaxed (most of the time)
and I think irish people do this well because most of us
some from small towns so we trust people in general. This is
harder to do if you're from a big city were there are more
dangers to your safety when you're growing up so you are
more wary of people.
Humans are animals above everything else and are lookinf for
easy prey. Getting rid of the victim mentality goes a long
way in making you safer. With a confident stride I've walked
with troubles in many foreign cities, whereas a mate of mine
(who's male) has gotton mugged outside his door.
I'm not suggesting its the whole deal but its very
influential