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So, is the Mazrim Taim in LoC the real Mazrim Taim, the Saldaean False Dragon, or is he the Forsaken Demandred in disguise?
Here, MT = the character in LoC, general of the Asha'man. Taim = the False Dragon we heard about first in TGH, captured after Falme. Demandred = the Forsaken.
The BA, or a Forsaken, or some Trollocs broke Taim free from where he was being held in Saldaea. They took him to Semirhage, or someone else who could extract every bit of information from his skull (à la the AS Cabriana who Semirhage tortures) and drained him dry. Then, they killed him. Now, Demandred either 1) Looks kind of like Taim in the first place, or 2) Looks very different from Taim and is using a partial illusion to look like the real Taim. This is why Bashere isn't sure that MT is Taim, and why MT says that he shaved his beard. This also explains why it is MT who brings up the things only he and Bashere know -- to convince everybody that he is Taim.
Then again, MT may really be the original Mazrim Taim. The reason we think of Demandred when we see him is not because he is Demandred, but because he is similar to Demandred in personality -- he wanted to be the Dragon, he doesn't like being second-best, etc. Taim could have the ultimate plan of supporting Rand as much as he can, helping him to win the Last Battle. Since Rand is expected to die in the Last Battle, Taim plans to bide his time and take control in the aftermath. After that, well, as MT says, the winners write the histories.
Finally, there is the possibility that there never was a "real" Taim; only Demandred. The first mention of Taim is at the beginning of TGH (TGH: 5, The Shadow in Shienar, 55), and "trouble in Saldaea" is mentioned in TEotW. At that point, at least some of the other Forsaken are loose, so it is possible that Demandred was, too. We don't know enough about the timing of events.
Here are the indications that MT = Demandred, and arguments against:
MT knows too much. The test, how quickly he picks up gateways, how well he teaches the Asha'man, etc. It's a little hard to believe that he figured all this out on his very own. Look at how much trouble Rand had learning before he got Asm as a proper teacher.
Answer: He's supposedly been channeling for 15 years. He had to have learned something in that time. Plus, MT mentions to Bashere that he used compulsion on two people (LoC: 2, A New Arrival, 76). Since the real Taim did that, the real Taim did know stuff. As for Gateways, maybe Taim is just a fast learner, like Rand, or Nynaeve. In fact, one's ease of learning seems to be a direct function of how strong one is in the Power. (Examples: Rand, Ny, El, Eg are all fast learners, and even SS and Moiraine, who are stronger than your average bear, er, AS, spent a relatively short time as Novices (3 years?).) This probably has to do with the fact that, the stronger you are, the easier it is for you to see the flows required for a particular action, and thus can more readily duplicate it.
The story about finding it in a Saldaean farmer's house is pretty fishy. Could be that Demandred (posing as Taim) gave it to Rand in order to try to gain his trust?
Answer: If MT is Demandred, why would he, and the DO, give a seal to Rand? If the minions of the Shadow had a seal, wouldn't they break it? Maybe the DO could predict that Rand/LTT would try to break the seal, but Demandred couldn't have. MT was certainly shocked when it looked like Rand was going to smash it (LoC: 2, A New Arrival, 80-1). As mentioned, it could be that Demandred would want to give it to Rand to get him to trust him, but that failed utterly. Or there could be some mysterious reason why the DO wants to stay sealed up, at least for the time being. (The origin of MT's seal story is somewhat backed by Bashere's story to Perrin about a farmer in Saldaea who claimed to be the ancestor of the kings of a ancient Kingdom. If MT Farmer = Bashere Farmer, it would be plausible that the seal was the last item of inheritance. Who better for the farmer to give it to than the Dragon Reborn (MT's claim before Rand declared himself)?
MT claims to not be affected by the Taint, after 15 years of channeling (LoC: 2, A New Arrival, 76). This seems pretty unlikely (cf. Owyn, who was going mad after only 3 years of seldom channeling at all). The only Taint protection we know of is linking to the DO. Plus, the Red Ajah seems pretty adept at tracking down male channelers. In 15 years, one would have thought that the AS would have heard of him long before they did.
Answer: Unless Taim was a raving lunatic when he was leading his armies as a False Dragon, he must have still been somewhat sane, even after 15 years. Same argument applies for him not getting caught by the Reds. Plus, Logain, who is not a Forsaken, has been channeling for six years, and isn't going mad. It seems likely that the ease with which one succumbs to the Taint varies widely with the person. Owyn went under in 3 years, MT mentions some other guys who lasted for 2 years (LoC: 2, A New Arrival, 79), and Logain has lasted for 6 (LOC: 51, The Taking, 647).
MT's reaction to Rand's badges and awards -- not pleased to be seen as subservient to Rand LoC: 42, The Black Tower, 543, just like Demandred. (LoC: Prologue, The First Message, 56-7)
Answer: It is entirely possible that Taim is just plain arrogant. Nothing says the Forsaken have a monopoly on over-weaning pride.
LTT thinks of Demandred, and killing him, every time MT is around. Is there a method in his madness?
Answer: Possibly, but again, it could just be that Taim is similar to Demandred in many ways, and LTT thinks he will betray him as Demandred did in the AoL. Anyway, LTT is loony. Plus, LTT seems to get this way about all male channelers who are not him/Rand. LoC: 2, A New Arrival, 83 LoC: 42, The Black Tower, 545
The epilogue -- "Have I not done well, Great Lord?" The DO's orders were to "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule," which seems to refer to Rand/LTT. MT, in building the Asha'man, has certainly helped Rand in gaining control of the world.
Answer: From Sammael's speech with Graendal (LoC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 135), we know that Demandred may be involved in the Seanchan invasion in Tarabon. Maybe this has something to do with it. (If Demandred is MT and is also involved with the Seanchan, wouldn't it be necessary for him to "disappear" from the farm in order to manage his other project? I don't think anybody mentioned anything about MT vanishing. Maybe some of his recruitment trips were to the west coast?) Or, John Schwegler points out, remember the intricate setup that occurred on the way to the White Tower... including the Shaido Aiel. Perhaps, Demandred had a major hand in manipulating the Shaido, and orchestrating a scenario that puts Rand at odds with the rest of the Aes Sedai (White Tower and Salidar). Neither Egwene nor Elaida will be pleased to hear that Rand made their Aes Sedai swear allegiance. Or, this could also have been a set up wrt "Let the LOC Rule" -- it got the AS to swear allegiance to him, plus it probably helped MT gain some favor in Rand's eyes.
If he hadn't, Rand might have gotten information out of it. Alternatively, it could've been a set-up, since MT gates in, oh-so-conveniently, just in time to waste the Gray Man.
Answer: Doubtful Rand could get much information from a Gray Man. The Gray Men have no souls -- they're basicly walking killing machines. They probably have some sort of self-destruct mechanism, too. Jared Samet remarks: "If I were designing a perfect assassin, I'd set him up so that he could never point the finger at me. Remember, the Gray Man who comes after Nynaeve in the Tower has a knife in him the moment they find him. Besides, the Gray Man could only tell Rand anything damaging to MT if Demandred had sent him (possible, I suppose, but why can't Demandred do it himself, if that's what the DO wants?) A Gray Man with a story implicating Sammael or some other Forsaken (easy enough for a channeler to set up) could help MT more than a dead one." As for how conveniently MT showed up, recall that strange and oddly convenient things happen around Rand all the time.
MT's remark on "These so-called Aiel". If he hadn't been around in the AoL, why are they "so-called"? (LoC: 11, Lessons and Teachers, 215) The only other (other?) person to use this phrase is the Mystery Man who is watching Sammael and Graendal in (ACoS: 20, Patterns Within Patterns, 356), somebody who is definitely one of the Forsaken.
Answer: Well, if Taim knew the old tongue, he might be simply saying that he doubts the Aiel are truly "dedicated" to Rand.
Another possible explanation is that, if Taim is about 35, which seems reasonable, then he was alive for the Aiel War, although probably too young to go east to fight. He probably heard tales about Aiel -- 10 feet tall, breathing fire, etc. Here, he sees some in Caemlyn peacefully patrolling the streets. Not what an average wetlander would expect of Savages from the Waste.
Forsaken-class, even (almost as strong as Rand himself). (LoC: 3, A Woman's Eyes, 92)
Answer: The real Taim was thought to be very strong. (TSR: 5, Questioners, 85) Just because he's strong doesn't mean he's evil. Nynaeve is Forsaken-class, but she's on the Good Guys' side.
In the prologue, it is said that Demandred never smiles. LoC: Prologue, The First Message, 15, LoC: Prologue, The First Message, 58 MT doesn't either - at the end of LoC, before "Kneel, or you will be knelt", Rand says something like "His expression was as close to a smile as he had ever seen it."LoC: 55, Dumai's Wells, 695
Answer: Once again, it could just be that Taim and Demandred have similar personalities.
"An invisible man holding a knife to Rand's throat."
This could indicate that Demandred is the "serpent in the bosom," masquerading as Taim.
Answer: This could be the Gray Man, as Rand thinks. Or, it could still be MT, who is not to be trusted, even if he isn't Demandred.
LTT says to Rand, (approx. wording), "Yes, we should kill Sammael. But Demandred first, then Sammael." (LoC: 51, The Taking, 635) LTT and Rand know where Sammael is, but how does LTT propose to go about killing Demandred if he doesn't know where he is? Therefore, they do know where Demandred is; i.e., he's MT. (Dash W.)
Answer: I wouldn't take anything LTT says too seriously. He wants to die forever and end his suffering (LoC: 18, A Taste of Solitude, 299), but he doesn't want to die. (LoC: 46, Beyond the Gate, 560) He says "trust no one" and "the man who doesn't trust is dead" or words to that effect. LTT could be confusing Taim and Demandred.
Demandred takes a gateway directly out of T'A'R while in the royal palace in Caemlyn. Unless Demandred knows some sort of combination traveling/leaving T'A'R gateway, then he must be somebody, or pretending to be somebody, who comes to Caemlyn regularly, and somebody who can channel his way into the palace without inviting immediate destruction upon himself. We know that MT has been visiting Rand in Caemlyn, because Rand's thoughts comment on how MT has taught him to block out heat, and a few chapters later Rand tells MT that his visits to the city would have to stop, because Alanna and Verin have shown up.
Answer: Maybe he went out of T'A'R to someplace that was not Caemlyn. (Problem here: I don't think we've seen anybody enter/leave T'A'R via any means except gating to the spot in the real world corresponding to the spot one is in in T'A'R.) Also, maybe Demandred is gutsy enough to enter into Rand's turf.
Something that should maybe be added as a separate point is MT's whole challenge/submit behavior. He'll argue with Rand about something, telling him it has to be done another way, then suddenly he'll agree and say "As my Lord Dragon commands." I think it's Demandred trying to do things his way, but suddenly remembering the Dark One's orders to do what Rand says. Also, MT sometimes disobeys Rand and frequently does things Rand doesn't expect, as with the Asha'man.
Answer: How is this different from the way the Tairen lords behaved? Or the Andoran nobility? Or Davram Bashere? Hell, even the Aiel tend to do this. Everybody tries to convince Rand to do things their way, but when you get right down to it, he's going to do as he damn well pleases, and all you can say is "As my Lord Dragon commands."
When Rand shows MT how to make a gateway (LOC: ?.?. A woman's Eyes?, ?), he calls it a "gateway." A little further in the same chapter, MT says, "You can Travel, but you don't know how to test for the talent." How does MT know that a Gateway = Travelling? AFAIK, Rand didn't mention anything about "travelling," only "gateways." *check this*
Answer: Maybe MT heard the term described during his 15 years as channeler, and added 2 and 2 to make 4.
ACoS: 20, Patterns Within Patterns, 355:
Sammael and Graendal are discussing their comrades. Sammael says, "I didn't arrange
[Rand's] kidnapping.... Mesaana had a hand in it, though. Maybe
Demandred and Semirhage as well, despite how it ended...." Note the
despite -- there is a strong implication here that Sem and Dem somehow
had a hand in the conclusion of the Rand-kidnapping episode, i.e., in
his rescue. Who was instrumental in the rescue? Taim & the Ashaman,
Perrin and the 2 Riversians, the Wolves, the Mayeners, and the
Aiel. We all know that the most likely place for Demandred is with
the Ashaman, as their leader, in fact. Note that this interpretation
implies that Sam knows where Dem and Sem are situated. We do not know
that he knows this, in fact, as of LoC: 6, Threads Woven of Shadow,
138, Graendal doesn't know where they are. Of course, Sam could have
known, and they could always have discovered it in the intervening
time.
Answer: A totally different spin can be put on the passage. As Mark Loy explains, "To paraphrase... I didn't arrange Rand's kidnapping.... Mesaana had a hand in arranging Rand's kidnapping.... Maybe Dem and Sem had a hand in arranging Rand's kidnapping as well, despite how the kidnapping ended. This interpretation means that they might have had a hand in arranging the kidnapping... in the planning...", despite the fact that it ended all messed up.
Taim has taken to calling himself "The M'Hael," which means "leader" in the Old Tongue. Taim knows an awful lot about the Old Tongue for a Randlander.
Answer: Well, maybe he does know the Old Tongue. Maybe he was a scholar or something before he became a False Dragon.
This doesn't apply one way or the other, but it is interesting to note. In ACOS: 2, The Butcher's Yard, 83 MT is extremely anxious for Rand's entourage of Asha'man to be of his choosing. MT clearly owns the loyalty of some of the Asha'man, and wants some of his boys to spy on Rand.
Rand sees him channeling he does not see the black cord connecting him to the DO and filtering out the taint. This has been seen on all of the other Forsaken, and here's no reason for there to be anything different about Demandred.
Answer: This is not a valid argument! The black cords are only seen/sensed under very special circumstances: Rand has only seen them in two places -- T'A'R and the in-between space used for Skimming. Rand has never seen MT in either of those places. Note that Rand has seen male Forsaken without seeing the cords: Aginor and Balthamel at the Eye and Bel'al in the Heart of the Stone. Thus, the fact that Rand hasn't seen the black threads on MT shows nothing one way or the other. (See section 2.20)
One more thing that has been discussed is that Osan'gar is MT. Osan'gar could have been substituted for the original Taim shortly before he turned up in LoC.
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