Shareware Overload/ShartewareOverload.cdr/windows/cis_win.zip/WINSDK.CIS

Text File | 1989-02-03 | 19KB | 415 lines

Welcome to Microsoft's  Windows SDK conference tonight. This
is Eric Arneson and I will be moderating. With me are Dan and
Melissa from MS Development.

(DaveMc) when I attended the advanced Windows programming ...
(DaveMc) (app) couse at MSU and I complained then about ...
(DaveMc) no response in Nov. we have been at a stand-still ga

(Dan) Please send a request in writing to Windows Program ...
(Dan) Management/Marketing. Reference the compuserve ...
(Dan) conference and I'll make sure you get one asap ...
(Dan) 16011 NE 36th Way, Box 97017, Redmond, WA 98073 ...
(Dan) Not sure what happened to your  mail, but I'll ...
(Dan) definately respond. GA

(DaveMc) OK that would be great.. thanks. ga
(Dan) who is this who I'm connected to at the moment GA

(DaveMc) I'm David McClanahan directing PC conversion of ...
(DaveMc) our Database (image) system you may have talked ...
(DaveMc) to Neil Somos or Glen?? (or Dave Fehr VP)?? GA

(Dan) It was at comdex, I don't recall his name but we had ...
(Dan) a discussion about Windows/386 hi-res display device ...
(Dan) driver development...I have his card in my office I ...
(Dan) believe he is with your Quintar division. GA

(DaveMc) oh yes i See I'm with the Publication Services ...
(DaveMc) Company (now B+H has split into "companies") ...
(DaveMc) in Cleveland... Neil Somos is in charge of the ...
(DaveMc) Hardware side of thins. GA

(Dan) OK.  We can take care of this off line. We have some ...
(Dan) more questions coming in GA

(DaveMc) ok thanks GA

(EricAr-MOD)_OK Guze, Go head! GA

(GUZE) hOW MUCH OVERHEAD IS INVOLVED WITH HANDLES CAN I USE ...
(GUZE) THEM TO IMPLEMENT A VIRTUAL MEMORY SYSTEM WITH 1000 ...
(GUZE) OR MORE DATA OBJECTS.  GA

(Dan) Well, I would have to check into the 1000 objects ...
(Dan) aspect, but using GlobalNotify() I've seen this type ...
(Dan) of thing done ga

(GUZE) It seems like as long as there's not a 100 bytes or ...
(GUZE) so associated with each handle, this would be a ...
(GUZE) practical way to store data in RAM and then refetch ...
(GUZE) from disk when Windows discarded it.  GA

(Dan) I don't know off the top how much is associated with ...
(Dan) GlobalNotify() If you send a letter, I can check ...
(Dan) into it and see exactly. Just write to Product ...
(Dan) Support - Windows SDK Support and we can take GA

(GUZE) OK,, many thanx.
(GUZE) You stumped me a minute ago with GlobalNotify(). ...
(GUZE) I have no info on this in my SDK 2.0. Is this ...
(GUZE) something new?  GA

(Mike) The information should be in the update document ...
(Mike) that came with version 2.0 and later. Sorry I don't ...
(Mike) have it with me now so don't know the page ga

(GUZE) OK, found it.  Never noticed it before and obviously...
(GUZE) was having to go through some contortions to make ...
(GUZE) up for the lack thereof.  This makes my life a lot ...
(GUZE) easier.  Thanx.  GA

(TA-NCR) Is anyone aware of any productivity tools ...
(TA-NCR) available for windows development other than ...
(TA-NCR) the SDK.  How would an object oriented language ...
(TA-NCR) be of ues.  GA

(Dan) There are a couple of tools.  One is a language from ...
(Dan) the White Water group called Actor.  There is also a ...
(Dan) new product, a code generation tool called CASE:W ...
(Dan) from SoftTools.  Not sure about the quality of the ...
(Dan) apps, I know that Actor is quite good.  There is ...
(Dan) also an extrememly good CASE tool from Popkin ...
(Dan) Software & Systems called the System Architect.  ...
(Dan) These guys are based out of  connecticut.  ...
(Dan) 203-323-3434 ask for Jan Popkin.  There is also a ...
(Dan) product from Optima called Design Vision which is a  ...
(Dan) another CASE product.  There is also CommmonView, ...
(Dan) which Microsoft recently endorsed.  Its a C++ tool ...
(Dan) that is apparently very good. You might want to ...
(Dan) request a copy of the Microsoft Windows Software and ...
(Dan) Hardware directory.  This is published by Microsoft ...
(Dan) quarterly.  It includes hardware devices with device ...
(Dan) driver support for Windows and apps vendors as well ...
(Dan) with contact names and phone numbers. GA

(TA-NCR) Thanks, what is a CASE product?

(Dan) Computer Aided Software Engineering they can be very ...
(Dan) helpful in architecting your apps and developing ...
(Dan) various design models. GA

(TA-NCR) I'm really only looking for something that will ...
(TA-NCR) give me a library of routines for screen design, ...
(TA-NCR) menus, input fields and keyboards I'll be writing ...
(TA-NCR) as front-line teller application and don't want...
(TA-NCR) to spend a lot of time re-inventing the wheel ...
(TA-NCR) when it comes to menial things like displays.  ...
(TA-NCR) Will these tools you've listed be useful and ...
(TA-NCR) should I consider using an object oriented ...
(TA-NCR) language like C++?  GA

(Dan) C++ would be very beneficial in keeping your code ...
(Dan) size down.  Actor is also something you should check ...
(Dan) into its quite good its object oriented and is an ...
(Dan) interactive development library with libraries...
(Dan) You can reach them at  312-491-2370 ask for Mark Achler.
(Dan) GA

(TA-NCR) Thanks... GA

(GUZE) Since Windows SDK got me going on OOProgramming, I'm hooked...
(GUZE) Would like to extend the use of SDK to making objects besides...
(GUZE) graphics oriented windows... Has anyone tried creating a window...
(GUZE) this is not visible and creating messages for it indexing off...
(GUZE) WIN_USER?  I have no idea how efficient the windows mssg passing...
(GUZE) procedures are for simple data access and processing... GA

(Mike) Sure, this is entirely possible. I've done it myself. You can create
(Mike) the window, but not ShowWindow() it. Then you can Send or Post
(Mike) messages to it just like any other window. Posting messages may
(Mike) be slow at times, but Sending messages will be fast since the
(Mike) WndProc is called directly as a subprocedure ga

(GUZE) Outstanding... the power of the whole Windows environment just keeps...
(GUZE) getting better for me.  Thanx  GA

(sec) no, windows development
(sec) It is my understanding that you cannot use a font other than...
(sec) System font in an edit control.  It would be nice if users could...
(sec) edit text in other fonts.  Of course, I know that when it comes...
(sec) to other fonts, we can re-invent the edit-control wheel, but it...
(sec) would be nicer if YOU (MS) would do it for us.  Will you? ga

(Dan) Yes, I agree.
(Dan) We are always looking for ways to improve the product and visually, we
(Dan) are evaluating various options available for the system font. At this
(Dan) time it is inappropriate for me to discuss this. <smile> GA

(AndyH) I am developing an application that has a help function like...
(AndyH) the one in the PIF editor.  I would like to just use a DrawText...
(AndyH) command to put the text in a user defined control and then let ...
(AndyH) windows ...
(AndyH) format the text for me.  Is there a call that can be used to ...
(AndyH) find positions...
(AndyH) in the formatted text (halfway etc) so that I can controll ...
(AndyH) the scrolling? ga

(Mike) well, you can use GetTextMetrics to get all of the information
(Mike) stored with the font, such as average character width, max char width,
(Mike) height, etc. If you simply want to center the text around a given
(Mike) point, you can use a static text control object...and let me think...
(Mike) well, I don't remember the call, but you can specify whether the
(Mike) text is aligned centered, right, top of the text, base line etc.
(Mike) ga

(AndyH) my main concern is how to respond to Vscroll messages if I ...
(AndyH) don't know how ...
(AndyH) many lines of text are in the window, since I let the DrawText ...
(AndyH) call format...
(AndyH) it for me. ga

(Mike) ok, let me think a minute I can't think of an easy way to do this...

(EricAr-MOD) Guze, you wanted to add something?

(GUZE) VP Eng of Aldus told me their favorite question for prog. applicants
(GUZE) was this exact problem... how do you relate cursor, etc to X,Y of...
(GUZE) window the answer (as I remember) was to do a binary search using...
(GUZE) the GetTextExtent() function.  GA

(AndyH) I was afraid that it wasn't going to be easy.  THanks...
(AndyH) and I'll remember not to apply for work at Aldus. ga

(GUZE) You would think that simple text in this environment wud be simple...
(GUZE) guess again...  GA

(Mike) I think you will have to calculate how I guess you're right there. ga

(TA-NCR) The latest catch phrase seems to be Object Oriented Language...
(TA-NCR) Can anybody point me to a good article or two (even book)...
(TA-NCR) where I can become familiar with the concept and its advantages?  GA

(Dan) Just a sec were checking on object oriented programming resource ...
(Dan) materials hang on a minute....

(Mike) While Dan is checking on other things...
(Mike) I remember a recent issue of Byte which covered this topic. ...
(Mike) Back in a minute...

(Dan) there is a book called "Object oriented Programming" by Sam Wise (SP)
(Dan) press, the same publications firm that did "programming in MPW"...you
(Dan) should be able to locate this at a book store...check B'Dalton Software
(Dan) they have a good selection of development books.
(Dan) GA

(TA-NCR) Thanks, good help.  GA

(EricAr-MOD) Next Anyone the floor is open!

(GUZE) My impression on Object Oriented Prog. is that most of the stuff...
(GUZE) being published is just tacked on extensions to other things, C++...
(GUZE) etc.  Actually Windows is pretty good OOP, but the real work on...
(GUZE) OOP was done in Smalltalk... The book "SmallTalk-80" Addison Wesley...
(GUZE) is a pretty good definition and working example.  Expensive (they're...
(GUZE) proud of this stuff!).  GA

(Dan) You're right...smalltalk was really the first example of OOP...
(Dan) this would be a good conceptual reference. GA

(AndyH) Speaking of OOP - does anybody have info on price and availability...
(AndyH) of CommonView? GA

(Dan) No price info, however the product was developed by Glockenspiel in
(Dan) Dublin Ireland, it is distributed in the USA by IMagesoft, in
(Dan) Beechhurst New York.  It does include class libraries for both
(Dan) Windows and Presentation
(Dan) Manager.  There is an arcticle about the product in this weeks issue
(Dan) of PC-Week.
(Dan) GA

(AndyH) Thanks - the article was what prompted my question. GA

(GUZE) In the Jan 89 issue of MSJ, the lead article is about how...
(GUZE) Quotron used Windows in combination with OOPs to do their...
(GUZE) application.  Lots of pix, neat info, but nowhere do they say...
(GUZE) just what OOPs language they used with Windows... frustrated... GA

(Mike) I'll have to read that when I get my copy (ironic?), and check
(Mike) with them. ga

(GUZE) The impression from the article is that they did their application
(GUZE) in some...
(GUZE) unknown OOPs and just about when they were done discovered Windows?
(GUZE) and married their application.  They were estatic 'cause Windows
(GUZE) was OOPs...
(GUZE) and their aps was already done in OOPs & wam married in heaven! But...
(GUZE) no where did they say how they wrote the original aps.  GA

(capfan) OK First, I love writing windows apps. However there are two
(capfan) defiencies I
(capfan) see 1) Poor support for talking to other hardware 2) Windows
(capfan) needs a
(capfan) quick basic, or quick C that runs under windows and produces
(capfan) windows
(capfan) apps directly, and has most of the windows functions built in
(capfan) natively.
(capfan) Are we going anywhere on any of these? Can you expand a little
(capfan) on the
(capfan) future of windows, especially 3.0?  GA

(Dan) The latest version of Quick C supports Windows app development
(Dan) in a limited way...this is version  2.0.  Microsoft is
(Dan) committed to supporting
(Dan) the Windows environment by providing development tools to make
(Dan) apps development
(Dan) easier, faster less complicated.  Microsoft has made no announcement
(Dan) of a so called Windows 3.0.  There were some references to this
(Dan) in the press
(Dan) and as you might expect, Microsoft does not stand still...
(Dan) we are always working
(Dan) on product enhancement and we listen to our users when implementing
(Dan) new features
(Dan) or revisions to new products.  It is not so difficult to assume
(Dan) that we would
(Dan) be enhancing Windows.  Thats one of the reasons we take the
(Dan) time to have an
(Dan) online conference like this one...we are hoping for constructive
(Dan) input, that
(Dan) can be applied to future products.  Microsoft has a standing
(Dan) policy of not
(Dan) pre-announcing products.  We will not, and references to such
(Dan) are purely speculation.  GA

(capfan) OK I understand that point, let me shift gears. If you were
(capfan) writing a windows
(capfan) app that needed to talk to a new piece of hardware, how
(capfan) would you do it?
(capfan) I want to support the IBM DCA card. This card generates an
(capfan) int02 when it
(capfan) detects communication from the host. I have some code working,
(capfan) but in EMS and win/386 it dies admirably? Can you tell me a bit
(capfan) about how w/386 gives tsr's etc to each app? GA

(Mike) You would need to request the DDK (Device Driver Development Kit)

(capfan) I saw the DDK docs, and it seems that only keyboard and
(capfan) display drives can be written with the ddk?ga

(Dan) ok, Windows 386 creates virtual machines fok, let's see if I
(Dan) can explain this sufficiently.
(Dan) First, the best way to deal with this issue is to have your interrupt
(Dan) service routine in a fixed DLL which is falgged as GMEM_NOTBANKED.
(Dan) If it is not fixed, not GMEM_NOTBANKED, or in a DOS virtual machine,
(Dan) it can be moved or banked into expanded memory.
(Dan) Of the TSR is run before windows, you can be safe in assuming it will
(Dan) stay in memory. If it is run in a virtual machine, you can't.
(Dan) I would recommend either:
(Dan) 1. Install the device driver as a DOS device driver or TSR before you
(Dan) start Windows. Then have a fixed GMEM_NOTBANKED DLL in Windows which
(Dan) calls the driver/TSR to install the ISR to a routine in the DLL. You
(Dan) will be able to call PostMessage() or PostAppMessage() from this ISR.
(Dan) 2. Put the entire driver in a Windows DLL (fixed not banked).
(Dan) ga

(capfan) OK, Just one ? for this approach, how do I flag the DLL as
(capfan) GMEM_NOTBANKED,
(capfan) Also, i tried putting the isr in a piece of nonbanked globally
(capfan) alloced
(capfan) allocated storage. This works great in regular windows, but not
(capfan) good in EMS or
(capfan) 386. Any thoughts on why/why not? I suspect it has to do with
(capfan) memory getting
(capfan) baked, but im not sure. From the isr I used postmessgae for
(capfan) communication.
(capfan) GA

(Dan) I knew you were going to ask that! Hold on a second while
(Dan) hold on while I check your first question and think about the second.

(capfan) OK

(Dan) I was slightly off. In the update doc, you should find reference
(Dan) to NOTBANKED which
(Dan) you include in your def file  along with FIXED
(Dan) anyway, yes it is a bit more involved. It sounds like you have more
(Dan) of a question?
(Dan) ga

(GUZE) In Petzold's book, he talks a lot about TextOut and DrawText...
(GUZE) but at one point says something about "If you draw a lot of text...
(GUZE) and are dissatisfied with the speed of TextOut" ExtTextOut is the
(GUZE) more efficient alternative... seems like a lot more involved...
(GUZE) alternative... GA
(GUZE) I really can't figure out the purpose of ExtTextOut()? GA

(capfan) can you still talk about question #2? Why a piece of non banked
(capfan) memory wont work? for the isr GA

(Dan) well,  it gives some additional options over TextOut. I don't know
(Dan) that I can expain better in this environment.ga

(GUZE) OK, thanx.  GA

(toby) Yes.  I'm running windows/286 v2.1 on a Telex 1280 (AT compatible)..
(toby) Am having problems with the "Your Memory Configuration Has Changed"
(toby) message at initiation of WINDOWS.  I've run MEMSET and have all memory
(toby) accounted for.  Any way I can get past the error box ?
(toby) GA

(Dan) Have you rerun setup? This message most commonly comes up when you
(Dan) have changed your extended memory configuration. If you installed
(Dan) with HIMEM.SYS installed, HIMEM is no longer being loaded, you will
(Dan) get this message.

(toby) If I disable HIMEM.SYS BEFORE I run Setup, this should cure the...
(toby) problem?  I bumped up from 2.1MB to 6MB, and am using a 2MB...
(toby) SMARTDRV along with HIMEM.SYS.  GA

(Dan) Actually, you should reinstall with HIMEM installed so that SETUP
(Dan) senses that it is there. If you are installing SMARTDRIVE or some other
(Dan) driver before HIMEM in CONFIG.SYS. Then HIMEM may not be getting it's
(Dan) memory.

(toby) I did try that approach.  Left HIMEM at the top of CONFIG.SY

(Dan) Check and make sure it is giving all the right messages on boot. The
(Dan) easiest thing to do is reinstall with your current configuration
(Dan) and see how it goes

(Dan) Well, beyond that I can't think of anything obvious. You might try
(Dan) calling
(Dan) our support line. They can go through your whole setup and probably track
(Dan) down the problem. ga

(Sysop David) Eric and all... thank you for a Herculean effort!!!  Well done!

(EricAr-MOD) Hey GUZE, any last words before we go home?

(GUZE) Nope... it's been interesting... thanx and g'nite! GA

(EricAr-MOD) good night!

(Dan) Good night everyone and thanks for all the questions!

Participants in tonight's conference:

User ID       Nod  Name / Forum Area
------------  ---  -----------------
70003,3171    FTW  toby
72517,1124    CVK  DaveMc
73507,3610    NYP  Frank Mena
73577,444     ANC  LAWRENCE D AGUILAR
74017,337     DCI  capfan
74736,565     VCR  TA-NCR
76056,2012    SCS  GUZE
76505,2141    POR  AndyH
76555,264     NYK  Susan Crayne
76666,2507    LTY  Vic Stone (MAGNA)
76701,55      SEC  tom
76701,56      SEC  Dan
76701,56      SEC  Mike
76701,76      SEC  EricAr-MOD
76701,144     SED  MS SysOp Runnoe
76701,154     SED  Brian Lewis (SL)