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comp.os.os2.advocacy (Usenet) Saturday, 18-Dec-1999 to Friday, 24-Dec-1999 +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mr__sparkle@my-deja.com 20-Dec-99 07:22:27 To: All 20-Dec-99 05:14:17 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (pol From: Truckasaurus <mr__sparkle@my-deja.com> In article <385D3D6F.BC3F3DDB@groovyshow.com>, "Kelly Robinson, friend of all men" <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote: (...) > (anti-gay bigots are cool because they can't think > laterally, okay I don't think they can think at all...) I don't think your friends will be happy about you going about telling, that they can't think ;) > Being proud of an object really is pathetic. "Y'all should use > Windows!" "You're an idiot if you don't use Linux!" "More people > should adopt OS/2 because it's soooooooooo superior." "Steve Jobs > invented the GUI so everybody should own a mac instead and look at all > those losers who copied the design!" Those comments and the people who > say them are shallow nit wits (the mac people especially). It's like > saying "I own a Ferrari" or "I have 5400 cats and I can feed them all." > "I have 7 VCRs, Japanese made, and 6 DVD players." Being proud of something you bought _might_ be pathetic. But being proud of something you helped building, is that pathetic? I have the opportunity to contribute to the GNU/Linux code and/or development (bug reporting, testing, etc), and if I did so, would I be pathetic if I was proud of the result? _I_ don't think so. Then what if my contribution is money? Would I still have the right to be proud? Well, yes, I think so. But what if my contribution was made to MS or Apple, and not to the Linux community, would it then be wrong to be proud, just because there is a company behind the product? I don't think so. The thing you are proud of is _not_ just the physical object, *but the fact that you have seen the greatness of that particular object*; you show insight, taste, or whatever. I don't expect you to be proud to be gay, just because your boyfriend is some kind of hunk, say, but because your _preference_ towards men, while being male yourself, means something special to you. Am I wrong? > There are more important things in life than computers and bullshit > technology. Y2k proves how much rubbish computers are in the first > place - mankind invented them thinking they'd be cool. [bzzt] Not! So, anti-gay bigots can't think, because they have a problem with your prefences. So, now that you show you have a problem with one of my greatest interests (computers), what should I think of you? > Get real and end this eternal bickering. Your adding to the bickering might keep it alive. > If I am not me, then who am I? > Don't ask me, I just live here. "Isn't that Harry Jones sitting over there?" "No, Harry Jones is dead!" "No, he's not! Look, he's moving!" -- "Dear someone you've never heard of, how is so-and-so. Blah blah. Yours truly, some bozo." - Homer Simpson Martin A. Boegelund. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: thorne25@juno.com 20-Dec-99 01:30:21 To: All 20-Dec-99 05:14:17 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! From: "Edwin" <thorne25@juno.com> Dave Tholen <tholenantispam@hawaii.edu> wrote in message news:83k9og$84t$1@news.hawaii.edu... > Kelly Robinson writes: > > > Get real and end this eternal bickering. > > How ironic. Balderdash. > Didn't you claim to be making your last post to > comp.os.os2.advocacy recently? Evidence please. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: ivaes@hr.nl 20-Dec-99 11:03:11 To: All 20-Dec-99 10:21:10 Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2 From: Illya Vaes <ivaes@hr.nl> "Michael W. Cocke" wrote: >>>At work, I support around 100 users who think a logon has something to do >>>with a big tree. Yeah, linux would go over real big...(intense sarcasm). >>Sorry, but I am irritated by this attitude in our "IS" support too. >>If they (and you) did their work as support well, those users would have >>to know diddly squat about 'ls' etc. >>*You* OTOH would have to be able to grasp more than just point-and-drool. >>The users aren't paid to know about computers, software, etc.; you are. >>Of course, many a times "OK" IS staf will just be hindered by management, >>so that they can not put any time into setting up a good environment (that >>will subsequently be easier and cheaper to support); usually they just >>present "Windows" (read "Microsoft") as a prerequisite beyond discussion. >The first two sentences say most of it. It's real easy to criticize >when you don't have to do the job. I want to talk to a few users at the >company where you manage the IS dept. If your new car doesn't work, do you think about how difficult it may be to design and manufacture one? Or do you just go to your dealer and say "it doesn't work, fix it"? You imply the latter if you're consistent. Your inference that I manage an IS department is completely false. I'm a user. So what did you want to ask again? This is all a question of where you put the onus of "knowing your stuff". You seem to want to put it at the software developer's, I only put it at the IS department level while you were implying that Linux requires it at the user's level. It's all fine and dandy to have the developer handle the load, but if he doesn't think of something, you're SOL. If the developer gives knowledgable users (ie. IS staff, says the optimist, and "power users") the tools, then they can use them as they see fit / require. I don't see why it should be a problem to require a certain level of knowledgability from IS staff. They're (or at least should be) employees just like all others and should do their job. Am I so unreasonable in this regard, according to you??? -- Illya Vaes (ivaes@hr.nl) "Do...or do not, there is no 'try'" - Yoda Holland Railconsult BV, Integral Management of Railprocess Systems Postbus 2855, 3500 GW Utrecht Tel +31.30.2653273, Fax 2653385 Not speaking for anyone but myself --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Holland Railconsult BV (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com 20-Dec-99 08:09:05 To: All 20-Dec-99 10:21:11 Subj: Re: Who runs this country? From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> On <3852f738.636767@news.direct.ca>, on 12/19/99 at 04:37 AM, sbm@direct.ca (Siobhan Medeiros) said: > Now, that's ridiculous. If every university which graduated a looney > was boycotted by employers, there wouldn't be a post-grad in the country > still working. This is a bad thing? <GRIN> Actually, many Universities are very zealous in protecting their reputations. Not many would willing allow an idiot like larso to carry on using University equipment and services. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12 MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67 Aut Pax Aut Bellum ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com 20-Dec-99 08:31:04 To: All 20-Dec-99 11:19:25 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (p From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> On <385D21B4.4DEA6ED1@ibm.net>, on 12/19/99 at 01:19 PM, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> said: > The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are > commonly accessed with a browser. My address book, phone lists and > other critical financial data are all safe and protected. Yes MY data > is most important. I wouldn't want to argue with anyone about their > fascination with collecting commercial software. Collecting software is > a great hobby when put in the right perspective. What a bunch of crap. The safest place for data is on a local hard disk which is mirrored and backed up with great frequency with the backup duplicated and stored off-site in a safe facility. If my office burned up any day but Sunday, I could lose no more than 4 hour's work since I do a differential backup of the network every four hours. The tape is then put in my car and taken home every day. A full backup is done every Saturday after a final differential. The full backup is taken home that day along with a copy of the final differential. Each Saturday I bring the oldest full backup set to the office and use it for that day's full backup. I would NEVER in a hundred years consider storing information accessible via the internet with a browser. If you do it and someone wants your data, they will get it. There is no absolute security on the web, NONE. What do you do if your hard disk crashes and the network is down? How fast can you retrieve 20 gigs of data from the network? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12 MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67 Aut Pax Aut Bellum ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mawa@iname.com 19-Dec-99 23:16:28 To: All 20-Dec-99 11:19:25 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (p From: mawa@iname.com (Matthias Warkus) It was the Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:35:40 -0500... ...and Andrew <drachen@mindspring.com> wrote: > > > "Kelly Robinson, friend of all men" wrote: > > > > Y2k proves how much rubbish computers are in the first > > place - mankind invented them thinking they'd be cool. [bzzt] Not! > > This is hands down the most bizzare statement I've seen in this NG. This even > includes statements by such luminaries as Derek Currie, S and Matt Templeton. Yeah. Kelly was clearly in fantasy land when he wrote that. Babbage, Zuse, Mauchly, all the men who pioneered the great "first"s in computing history, had nothing but the uncoolest of things in mind when designing and inventing their machines. Babbage wanted to calculate tables without the usual quota of typos and errors. Zuse wanted a machine for architectural statics and things like that. And the Mark I and ENIAC people wanted to do ballistics and calculations in nuclear physics. Nothing cool there. mawa -- Think! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Question Mark Software / Royal Space Navy (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 20-Dec-99 06:11:26 To: All 20-Dec-99 11:19:25 Subj: Re: New IBM Server OS (K42)? From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> StarOffice? Christian Gustafson wrote: > "Jim Larson" <jwlarson@jvlnet.com> wrote in message news:G06PYUPlofKK-pn2-2d0PULFuLGVh@jvl-pm-1-25.jvlnet.com... > > Does anyone know more about this thing? Is it still in progress? > > > > http://www.research.ibm.com/K42/ > > > > Although the page was created 1999-7-29, the dates on the links are a > > bit dated. > > > > Jim Larson > > But will it run Office? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 20-Dec-99 06:16:18 To: All 20-Dec-99 11:19:25 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> Christian Gustafson wrote: > "David H. McCoy" <fake@forgitaboutit.com> wrote in message news:MPG.12c7372724637fb0989690@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com... > > >> And now, they too are gone. > > > > > >I've got version 3 for Windows, and boy, I tell you, it is *unbelievably* > > >unstable. You can simply open and close a few GIFs, and it hozes with > > >a Dr. Watson fault. Needless to say, I didn't upgrade to v4. > > > > > >The new tools are cool and they work, sure, underneath, it's good old > > >Colorworks, but it could up-and-die at any time. > > > > > I used version 1+. Got it from Kiyoinc back in the day. The interface really > > needed work, but the multithreading was pretty decent. > > I had 2.0 for OS/2. The real shame of Colorworks back then was that it > was so tight and far ahead of other graphics apps, especially with its > multithreaded-ness and multiprocessor support, but IBM never followed- > up with a Warp-era SMP client. One does not need multiple processors to enjoy a multithreaded application. > Your purchase of CW was bittersweet, then, unless you were willing to > run in on OS/2 SMP 2.11 forever. I'm surprised SMP for PCs is still an issue. By now I would have expected the low cost PCs would have clued people into the real value of SMP. IBM's decision to NOT release an SMP OS/2 still seems wise to me. The market, not IBM, rejected SMP. Even Be's successes are on low cost, single processors systems where their threaded OS is superior. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 20-Dec-99 06:29:17 To: All 20-Dec-99 11:19:25 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> "David H. McCoy" wrote: > In article <OIf74.550$H_5.61262@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, kwilas@stardock.com > says... > >In article <385D21B4.4DEA6ED1@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote: > >>The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonly > >>accessed with a browser. My address book, phone lists and other critical > >>financial data are all safe and protected. > > > >That's all fine and wonderful when your Internet connection (and those > >of your web based service provider and anything in between) is working. You have some problem with your infrastructure? It's a 24 x 7 service where I live. The market value of companies relying on 56kb connections is in the billions. 56kb is ample to secure and access data. > Of course, even with my NEW CABLE MODEM:-), I prefer local stuff with backups. And you keep your money in a mattress. > >What's that? Your DSL line is down? Well, I'm sure you'll be happy to > >know your data'll be safe until you get back. Course, you can't use > >it until then (less it's cached locally, but that's arguing against > >your point in this day and time). > > > >>Yes MY data is most important. > > Indeed. My data is safe and secure with me where I can get to it. C > Connection down? No problem. > Computer down? No problem. > House burned down? No problem. > After all, that's what backup media and safe boxes are for. And system administrators. Sure - everyone needs and PC and with that a backup procedure and safe box. > >Absolutely, but w/o being able to get at that data, it's worthless. Unreasonable fear. And why can't I get to my data? Is, say, Yahoo's site down more often than your PC? Simplify the PC and use the web and most common point of failure is eliminated. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jstuyck@home.com 20-Dec-99 14:33:05 To: All 20-Dec-99 11:19:25 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! From: Jim Stuyck <jstuyck@home.com> Joseph wrote: > The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonly > accessed with a browser. Huh? You're not in the "data processing" business as a profession, I hope. Jim Stuyck --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: J. D. Stuyck and Associates -- Retired (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: ewill@lexi.athghost7038suus.net 20-Dec-99 14:52:15 To: All 20-Dec-99 11:19:25 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (p From: ewill@lexi.athghost7038suus.net (The Ghost In The Machine) In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Matthias Warkus <mawa@iname.com> wrote on Sun, 19 Dec 1999 23:16:57 +0100 <slrn85qmap.54j.mawa@audrey.my.box>: >It was the Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:35:40 -0500... >...and Andrew <drachen@mindspring.com> wrote: >> >> >> "Kelly Robinson, friend of all men" wrote: >> > >> > Y2k proves how much rubbish computers are in the first >> > place - mankind invented them thinking they'd be cool. [bzzt] Not! >> >> This is hands down the most bizzare statement I've seen in this NG. >> This even includes statements by such luminaries as Derek Currie, >> S and Matt Templeton. > >Yeah. Kelly was clearly in fantasy land when he wrote that. > >Babbage, Zuse, Mauchly, all the men who pioneered the great "first"s >in computing history, had nothing but the uncoolest of things in mind >when designing and inventing their machines. > >Babbage wanted to calculate tables without the usual quota of typos >and errors. > >Zuse wanted a machine for architectural statics and things like that. > >And the Mark I and ENIAC people wanted to do ballistics and >calculations in nuclear physics. > >Nothing cool there. Oh, I dunno; I think that's pretty cool. :-) (Although not in the physical sense; the tubes filled up half a room which must have been very warm...) After all, that's what they built the machines for -- as tools to solve problems. A screwdriver is cool, in its own way (although a computer is way cooler, as it's more fun :-) ) But it's still pretty bizarre; a myriad of factors (not the least of which was expense of physical memory) contributed to the Y2K problem (if indeed it becomes a problem, at the current time it looks like it will create at most some minor glitches, as a strong storm might). Blaming the computer seems to be rather silly. (I'm also of the opinion that a number of programs -- my watch among them! -- will interpret e.g. '01' as '2001', although in the case of my watch, it matters little as, except for '00' itself, leap years don't depend on the century -- and I can easily adjust my watch on March 1st -- a feat that may not always be possible, of course, for deeply embedded controllers.) >mawa >-- >Think! The IBM logo used in the 70's. It'll never go out of style. :-) -- ewill@aimnet.com -- insert random misquote here --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Verio (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jmalloy@borg.com 20-Dec-99 09:39:00 To: All 20-Dec-99 14:31:22 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> Translation: "I enjoy eternal bickering and being the fool." -- Tholen Dave Tholen <tholenantispam@hawaii.edu> wrote in message news:83k9og$84t$1@news.hawaii.edu... > Kelly Robinson writes: > > > Get real and end this eternal bickering. > > How ironic. Didn't you claim to be making your last post to > comp.os.os2.advocacy recently? > --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: lucien@metrowerks.com 20-Dec-99 15:32:26 To: All 20-Dec-99 14:31:22 Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!! From: lucien@metrowerks.com In article <83h5s6$nd1$1@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote: > Lucien writes: > > >>> The reader will note that Dave does not commit to a position on the > >>> JDK sentence explicitly > > >> On the contrary, I have committed to a position on the JDK sentence. > > > Reproduce it here. > > Why? The reader will note that, again, Dave supplies no explicit statement regarding his position. > >>> Here is the question again: > >>> > >>> Is the JDK sentence ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification? > > >> Irrelevant, given that quantification can be provided in more than > > > The reader will note that, again, no explicit answer to the (central) > > question has been provided. > > The reader will note that, again, Lucien has chosen to delete the > explicit answer, Your response is not an explicit answer to the question, as you are well aware. Therefore, given that your position has now been established as "The JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification", explain why these two variants of the JDK sentence are grammatical, coherent sentences of English: "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality." "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality." Lucien S. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com 20-Dec-99 11:21:17 To: All 20-Dec-99 14:31:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: Brad BARCLAY <bbarclay@ca.ibm.com> Trancser wrote: > And ..I dont THINK OS/2's had an actual "new" feature or something very > significant added to it, in a while. Just pretty much "fixes" for current (or > old) problems, right? (sorry, I havent read any of the readme's inside the > fp's in a while, but I am running aurora - so I dont think I could use them > anyway?) The WARP Server for e-business (Aurora) kernels are pretty much complete rewrites of the old WARP Server/WARP 4 kernels, for both Uni processing and SMP. Specifically new are the 32 bit IFS support (used by JFS) and the significantly larger per process address space (3Gb). Brad BARCLAY =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Posted from the OS/2 WARP v4.5 desktop of Brad BARCLAY. E-Mail: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com Location: 2G43D@Torolabs --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IBM Toronto Labs, DB2 for OS/2 Install Developer (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: possum@road.kill 20-Dec-99 12:40:06 To: All 20-Dec-99 14:31:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: possum@road.kill (Mike Trettel) On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 06:17:48 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: >> >>Wishful thinking. They should get one of the few absolute OS/2 kernel >>insiders on their side first, before they consider rewriting an OS. >>Linus Torvalds is no reference here, he started on a freely available OS >>already (Minix), had a whole unemployed community who wanted to have a >>"Unix", Unix is already an accepted standard (Linux *is* technology of >>the 70s and 80s - nothing really new, just overhyped - reinventing the >>wheel is just a lot of work), and finally, OS/2 is more complex by an >>order of magnitude than Unix (not even just taking the size of the APIs >>into account). >> >>Holger >> > >The kernel for Linux arent really old are they? I mean, take a look at how >MANY times the damn things updated and stuff. And new features and support >are added. I cant say 100% technically myself, but I know that damned >kernel's updated A *LOT* ....heh. > >And ..I dont THINK OS/2's had an actual "new" feature or something very >significant added to it, in a while. Just pretty much "fixes" for current (or >old) problems, right? (sorry, I havent read any of the readme's inside the >fp's in a while, but I am running aurora - so I dont think I could use them >anyway?) I think you missed Holger's point. The difference isn't in timestamps, it's in conceptual layout. Linux is based very much upon '70's technology, and is actually quite a bit simpler in layout and implementation than OS/2. And no, this isn't a bad thing-Unix (and Linux by extension) is based upon what works, and works well, and thus is extremely stable and well designed. This has resulted though in some architectural bottlenecks (POSIX threads, anyone?) that simply aren't as well done as they are in OS/2. Linux is receiving amazing amounts of hype, and much of that is due not to really superior design (although it kicks the snot out of Win95/98, and can be considered to be as good as NT/Win2K) but because it's Not From Microsoft,and will never be under Microsoft's thumb. People can take Linux and make money with it, and not have to deal with MS. That's why there's a mad scramble going on right now to create a "desktop friendly" Linux distro. If technical superiority was the single deciding factor in why an OS is popularly accepted, then OS/2 would have triumphed years ago over Windows. It's not that simple though. -- Mike Trettel trettel (shift 2) fred (small dot) net Death to spammers, and so forth. Fix the reply line to mail me. Sorry. System uptime is 5 days 16:05 hours (en). --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jmalloy@borg.com 20-Dec-99 11:58:10 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: Who runs this country? From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> Anyone who would place the "reputation" of an institution above the actual abilities of the person in front of them deserves what they get -- mediocrity. It's not a mortal sin, but it is mediocre. - Joe <letoured@nospam.net> wrote in message news:385d1d01$1$yrgbherq$mr2ice@news.sover.net... > sbm@direct.ca (Siobhan Medeiros) said: > > >>I have decided that I will never interview a graduate of the University of > >>Alberta if they confer any degree upon you. If you are an example of the > >>university, the university is a disgrace to the name, the province, the > >>country, and the world. > > >>A copy of this message is being sent to the university. > >> > >Now, that's ridiculous. If every university which graduated a looney was > >boycotted by employers, there wouldn't be a post-grad in the country > >still working. > > No its not. Society needs to filter out the loony tunes. Might as well use > the university system as anything else. -- And frankly, considering some > of the stuff I see coming from these folks, we should have started a long > time ago. > > > _____________ > Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net> > --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 20-Dec-99 12:21:13 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Joe Malloy wrote: > > Translation: An obvious lie. > "I enjoy eternal bickering and being the fool." What Dave allegedly enjoys is irrelevant. > -- Tholen Dave never said that. Why the erroneous attribution Joe? Taking erroneous attribution lessons from Eric "- tholenbot" Bennett? > Dave Tholen <tholenantispam@hawaii.edu> wrote in message > news:83k9og$84t$1@news.hawaii.edu... > > Kelly Robinson writes: > > > > > Get real and end this eternal bickering. > > > > How ironic. Didn't you claim to be making your last post to > > comp.os.os2.advocacy recently? Note: no response "'"'I do not "approve" phrases.' - Dave Tholen" - tholenbot' - Marty" - Eric Bennett --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IBM Global Services North -- Burlington, Vermont, (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jedi@dementia.mishnet 20-Dec-99 17:57:12 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (pol From: jedi@dementia.mishnet () On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 07:22:55 GMT, Truckasaurus <mr__sparkle@my-deja.com> wrote: >In article <385D3D6F.BC3F3DDB@groovyshow.com>, > "Kelly Robinson, friend of all men" <ispy@groovyshow.com> wrote: >(...) >> (anti-gay bigots are cool because they can't think >> laterally, okay I don't think they can think at all...) > >I don't think your friends will be happy about you going about telling, >that they can't think ;) > >> Being proud of an object really is pathetic. "Y'all should use >> Windows!" "You're an idiot if you don't use Linux!" "More people >> should adopt OS/2 because it's soooooooooo superior." "Steve Jobs >> invented the GUI so everybody should own a mac instead and look at all >> those losers who copied the design!" Those comments and the people >who >> say them are shallow nit wits (the mac people especially). It's like >> saying "I own a Ferrari" or "I have 5400 cats and I can feed them >all." >> "I have 7 VCRs, Japanese made, and 6 DVD players." > >Being proud of something you bought _might_ be pathetic. But being proud "Being unashamed for actually exercising one's free will in a free market economy" might be a more appropriate way to put it. [deletia] "Foo Pride" has become quite a fad lately. Usually such instances are similar: pride is put into a void where "lack of shame" really should be. -- One of the great lies of our age is the myth that Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: swanee@pillarsoft.net 20-Dec-99 11:11:14 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: HTML problems From: Wayne Swanson <swanee@pillarsoft.net> jasper wrote: > > Hoi, > > I just got the homepage for htmipf (html to ipf compiler) done, but I've > got a major problem. The point is that it is impossible to download the > zip file because the browser tells it cannot set the guest privileges. > Does anybody has an idea how to fix this. I've tried to set http: in > front of the link instead of ftp: but also this gives an error. > > For details see http://home-5.worldonline.nl/~jdekeij/htmipf.html Check your link to the file. Your subdirectory is listed incorrectly. Correct: /~jdekeij/ Incorrect: /~jdkeij/ This link works: http://home-5.worldonline.nl/~jdekeij/htmipf13.zip Wayne Swanson ------------------------------------------------------------ email: swanee@pillarsoft.net PillarSoft: http://www.pillarsoft.net Developers of: WarpZip, DeskTop Backup (DTB), SFX Installer ShowTime/2 and the Enhanced E Editors Vice President: VOICE (Virtual OS/2 International Consumer Education) VOICE: http://www.os2voice.org ------------------------------------------------------------ --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: PillarSoft (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: osbo082@ibm.net 20-Dec-99 17:12:05 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:43:59, David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> said: |In article <OIf74.550$H_5.61262@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, kwilas@stardock.com |says... |>In article <385D21B4.4DEA6ED1@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote: |>>The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonly |>>accessed with a browser. My address book, phone lists and other critical |>>financial data are all safe and protected. |> |>That's all fine and wonderful when your Internet connection (and those |>of your web based service provider and anything in between) is working. | |Of course, even with my NEW CABLE MODEM:-), I prefer local stuff with backups. | |>What's that? Your DSL line is down? Well, I'm sure you'll be happy to |>know your data'll be safe until you get back. Course, you can't use |>it until then (less it's cached locally, but that's arguing against |>your point in this day and time). |> |>>Yes MY data is most important. | |Indeed. My data is safe and secure with me where I can get to it. C |Connection down? No problem. |Computer down? No problem. |House burned down? No problem. | |After all, that's what backup media and safe boxes are for. | |>Absolutely, but w/o being able to get at that data, it's worthless. |> |>Kris |> | |-- |--------------------------------------- |David H. McCoy |dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com |--------------------------------------- Sure and there was a bunch of people in Africa that thought it would be better to stick with drums because they could keep the logs and sticks stored locally too. My gawd, Magumbo what if I don't get a dial tone!!!!! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: letoured@nospam.net 20-Dec-99 13:26:14 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: Who runs this country? From: letoured@nospam.net Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> said: >Anyone who would place the "reputation" of an institution above the >actual abilities of the person in front of them deserves what they get -- >mediocrity. It's not a mortal sin, but it is mediocre. Sorry but the world does not work this way. Back when I use to do the hiring there were a couple of places where we knew from experience that the candidates needed to be checked more carefully. Sometimes they were good, but most of the time they were a problem that showed up later. After we learned that, it meant they were always going to be the second and third choices in the interview lineup and they had better be better, not just in person but on paper, or there wasn't much chance that I was going to give them a shot at a job, much less spending money flying them in for an interview. ><letoured@nospam.net> wrote in message >news:385d1d01$1$yrgbherq$mr2ice@news.sover.net... >> sbm@direct.ca (Siobhan Medeiros) said: >> >> >>I have decided that I will never interview a graduate of the University >of >> >>Alberta if they confer any degree upon you. If you are an example of the >> >>university, the university is a disgrace to the name, the province, the >> >>country, and the world. >> >> >>A copy of this message is being sent to the university. >> >> >> >Now, that's ridiculous. If every university which graduated a looney was >> >boycotted by employers, there wouldn't be a post-grad in the country >> >still working. >> >> No its not. Society needs to filter out the loony tunes. Might as well use >> the university system as anything else. -- And frankly, considering some >> of the stuff I see coming from these folks, we should have started a long >> time ago. >> >> >> _____________ >> Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net> >> _____________ Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net> --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cbass2112@my-deja.com 20-Dec-99 18:34:19 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451531 From: cbass2112@my-deja.com In article <83fedd$edr$1@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote: -- snip -- > Still suffering from reading comprehension problems? Still beating your wife? -- snip -- Curtis Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jedi@dementia.mishnet 20-Dec-99 17:53:25 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: jedi@dementia.mishnet () On 20 Dec 1999 17:12:11 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: >On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:43:59, David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> >said: > >|In article <OIf74.550$H_5.61262@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, kwilas@stardock.com >|says... >|>In article <385D21B4.4DEA6ED1@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote: >|>>The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonly >|>>accessed with a browser. My address book, phone lists and other critical >|>>financial data are all safe and protected. >|> >|>That's all fine and wonderful when your Internet connection (and those >|>of your web based service provider and anything in between) is working. >| >|Of course, even with my NEW CABLE MODEM:-), I prefer local stuff with backups. >| >|>What's that? Your DSL line is down? Well, I'm sure you'll be happy to >|>know your data'll be safe until you get back. Course, you can't use >|>it until then (less it's cached locally, but that's arguing against >|>your point in this day and time). >|> >|>>Yes MY data is most important. >| >|Indeed. My data is safe and secure with me where I can get to it. C >|Connection down? No problem. >|Computer down? No problem. >|House burned down? No problem. >| >|After all, that's what backup media and safe boxes are for. >| >|>Absolutely, but w/o being able to get at that data, it's worthless. >|> >|>Kris >|> >| >|-- >|--------------------------------------- >|David H. McCoy >|dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com >|--------------------------------------- > >Sure and there was a bunch of people in Africa that thought it would >be better to stick with drums because they could keep the logs and >sticks stored locally too. > >My gawd, Magumbo what if I don't get a dial tone!!!!! If you don't get dial tone, your apps are gone, PERIOD. No attempts to call anyone that disagrees with you some sort of throwback will change this. The net isn't quite as redundant as it used to be. At this point, it's far too unreliable to trust your applications to. It's not redundant enough. When your net based services have the redunandancy and high availability that you can throw at your local servers or even your local workstations, then this sort of application will start to make sense. -- One of the great lies of our age is the myth that Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jklewis@dontspam.com 20-Dec-99 12:45:23 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: Re: Preventing a TRAP#### from From: Jim Lewis <jklewis@dontspam.com> --------------D765898ED0594C4F7ACFEB78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trancser wrote: > I was wondering if there was a way to prevent having to actually reboot ones > system, if a TRAP occurs? Is there a way to make the system ...I guess dump > the trap were your actually able to regain control of your system, without > having to press either reset button on your computer, or press the C.A.D. > sequence? > > I know that there is a 'trapdump' parameter one can place inside their > config.sys file, but this doesnt sound like it will help prevent one from > having to reboot.... I see someone has already answered you wrong so I'll give you a more correct answer. It is possible to recover from a "fatal" system trap if you install the Kernel Debugger and know how to use it. Note that only advanced users would even want to think about attempting this. Depending on what the trap was you may be able to "fix" what caused the trap and continue running. Myself and others used to do this more than we would like to admit back when I was in OS/2 ISV support. A better solution of course is to just fix whatever broke. Also, as you suspected the TRAPDUMP thing doesn't let you recover from a trap, rather it dumps the state of the machine to diskettes or the hard drive for analysis later. You can also invoke a dump by pressing Ctrl-Alt-NumLock- Numlock. -- Jim Lewis Not speaking for IBM. Free OS/2 utilities and Java games - http://www.chauvet.com/jim.lewis --------------D765898ED0594C4F7ACFEB78 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML> Trancser wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I was wondering if there was a way to prevent having to actually reboot ones system, if a TRAP occurs? Is there a way to make the system ...I guess dump the trap were your actually able to regain control of your system, without having to press either reset button on your computer, or press the C.A.D. sequence? I know that there is a 'trapdump' parameter one can place inside their config.sys file, but this doesnt sound like it will help prevent one from having to reboot....</BLOCKQUOTE> I see someone has already answered you wrong so I'll give you a more correct answer. It is possible to recover from a "fatal" system trap if you install the Kernel Debugger and know how to use it. Note that only advanced users would even want to think about attempting this. Depending on what the trap was you may be able to "fix" what caused the trap and continue running. Myself and others used to do this more than we would like to admit back when I was in OS/2 ISV support. A better solution of course is to just fix whatever broke. Also, as you suspected the TRAPDUMP thing doesn't let you recover from a trap, rather it dumps the state of the machine to diskettes or the hard drive for analysis later. You can also invoke a dump by pressing Ctrl-Alt-NumLock- Numlock. <PRE>-- Jim Lewis Not speaking for IBM. Free OS/2 utilities and Java games - <A HREF="http://www.chauvet.com/jim.lewis">http://www.chauvet.com/jim.lewis</A> </HTML> --------------D765898ED0594C4F7ACFEB78-- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Network Computing Division (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tgal@pobox.com 20-Dec-99 12:38:23 To: All 20-Dec-99 16:56:01 Subj: which soundcard to buy? From: "Austy Garhi (n. d'e-pl.)" <tgal@pobox.com> I'd appreciate your recommendations. This is what I'd like to get from a soundcard: --COMES WITH OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER. --Takes electret microphones input. --Enables the VoiceType features of Warp 4; in other words, it has the required sampling rate, etc. --When returning from a SLEEP/STANDBY state of APM (advcd. power mngmt.) the soundcard restarts with FULL FUNCTIONALITY: the cheap soundcards fail to process .WAV files after a STANDBY! As you can see, I'm not looking for "CBS-Recording- Studios-on-PCI" type of card: just a reliable card for OS/2. :) -- ===> tgal@pobox.com ╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕ InfoBaHn on: Rockwell, Netscape, InJOY, and OS/2 ____________________________________________________ ((( BOXER ))) fassst, 32-bit character mode editor http://www.boxersoftware.com/ ╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕ ((( InJOY ))) INTERNET DIALER apparatus EXTRAORDINAIRE! http://www.fx.dk/injoy ╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕ ((( BLOWFISH ))) ENCRYPTION for users/developers. http://www.counterpane.com/blowfish.html ╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕╕ --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: meer.net (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cbass2112@my-deja.com 20-Dec-99 21:18:21 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: OS2 comes in 9th (Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating syste From: cbass2112@my-deja.com In article <zozo85gn5s.2b.uno@sage.40th.com>, reply@only.n.news.40th.com wrote: > > For hard-hitting, knock-out numbers, click on this link. It has OS2 > numbers (9th place, right ahead of ... Amiga): > > http://www.thecounter.com/stats/December/os.html > > Summary -- snip -- And how many of the approx. 1.7 million Win3.1 hits are running Win-OS/2? It could be anywhere from zero to approx 1.7 million. The point is that there is no way of knowing. That Win9x is popular is a given. So are Mickey-D's hamburgers. So is Spam. Curtis Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jdesmaraNOjdSPAM@novanthealth.or... 20-Dec-99 13:29:22 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: which soundcard to buy? Message sender: jdesmaraNOjdSPAM@novanthealth.org.invalid From: John Desmarais <jdesmaraNOjdSPAM@novanthealth.org.invalid> In article <385E93D7.BFC4A6CA@pobox.com>, "Austy Garhi (n. d'e-pl.)" <tgal@pobox.com> wrote: > I'd appreciate your recommendations. This is what = > I'd like to get from a soundcard: > --COMES WITH OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER. > --Takes electret microphones input. > --Enables the VoiceType features of Warp 4; in other = > words, it has the required sampling rate, etc. > --When returning from a SLEEP/STANDBY state of APM = > (advcd. power mngmt.) the soundcard restarts with = > FULL FUNCTIONALITY: the cheap soundcards fail to = > process .WAV files after a STANDBY! > As you can see, I'm not looking for "CBS-Recording- > Studios-on-PCI" type of card: just a = > reliable card for OS/2. Look for any board using chipsets from one of these companies. ESS Technology Inc. OS/2 drivers for their various audio chipsets (ESS 1868PnP, 1869, etc). Good driver providing full duplex audio (simultaneous recording & playing) as well as great simultaneous OS/2 & WinOS/2 audio. Crystal Semiconductor Audio chipsets with good OS/2 drivers. Aureal Makers of PCI audio chips with native OS/2 support. Their 8820 A3D chip is used in cards by Xitel, Turtle Beach, Diamond and others. NOTE: Aureal claim these are reference drivers only--you should contact your card manufacturer for specific drivers. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discuss (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org 20-Dec-99 13:57:12 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: "Chad Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message news:slrn85sr5f.bht.jedi@localhost.localdomain... > On 20 Dec 1999 17:12:11 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: > >On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:43:59, David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> > >said: > > <trimmed> > > If you don't get dial tone, your apps are gone, PERIOD. > > No attempts to call anyone that disagrees with you some > sort of throwback will change this. The net isn't quite > as redundant as it used to be. At this point, it's far > too unreliable to trust your applications to. It's not > redundant enough. > Wrongo boyo. The net itself is just as redundant and fault tolerant as it always was. If the dial up points of presence you use aren't as reliable as always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. > When your net based services have the redunandancy and > high availability that you can throw at your local > servers or even your local workstations, then this sort > of application will start to make sense. > > -- > > One of the great lies of our age is the myth that > Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random > collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| > the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ > > Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Hipcrime Vocabulary Organization (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tpkelley@winkinc.com 20-Dec-99 15:55:14 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! From: tim kelley <tpkelley@winkinc.com> "Kelly Robinson, friend of all men" wrote: > There are more important things in life than computers and bullshit > technology. Y2k proves how much rubbish computers are in the first > place - mankind invented them thinking they'd be cool. [bzzt] Not! I believe technology has had a rather deleterious effect on humanity ... but, like it or not, it's here to stay. at least communications technology is interesting, if anything. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net 20-Dec-99 22:02:18 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:46:40, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) wrote: > Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote: > > > On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:39:13, veit@borneo.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: > > > > Minix wan't free when Mr Torvalds started work on the Linux kernel. > > Cheap, yes. Free, no. > > You seem to misunderstand the term "free" here, otherwise you wouldn't > use "cheap" as a level. > I meant "cheap" as in "only USD 40 per license", which is the price I remember from 1990. Compared to what a UNIX license cost back then, it might just as well have been for free. > Minix was indeed not free (and I'm not sure whether it is today), but it > was always free for education purposes if I remember correctly. > > Anyway, the main problem with Minix (from a Linus Thorvalds or hacker > perspective) was that Andrew Tanenbaum (the Minix author) didn't want > Minix to be extended into a full-blown OS, since the very idea of Minix > is that it can be understood in six months. It was developed for > education purposes at a university in the Nederlands and that's what it > is still used for. > You are correct about Tanenbaum's goal for Minix. I think it is freely downloadable nowadays, but I'm not sure if the source is available (the "other" meaning of "free"). Karel Jansens jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net ======================================================= "The method employed I would gladly explain, While I have it so clear in my head, If I had but the time and you had but the brain - But much yet remains to be said." the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll) ======================================================= --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jedi@dementia.mishnet 20-Dec-99 22:19:28 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: jedi@dementia.mishnet () On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:57:25 -0800, Chad Mulligan <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: > ><jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message >news:slrn85sr5f.bht.jedi@localhost.localdomain... >> On 20 Dec 1999 17:12:11 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: >> >On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:43:59, David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> >> >said: >> > ><trimmed> >> >> If you don't get dial tone, your apps are gone, PERIOD. >> >> No attempts to call anyone that disagrees with you some >> sort of throwback will change this. The net isn't quite >> as redundant as it used to be. At this point, it's far >> too unreliable to trust your applications to. It's not >> redundant enough. >> > >Wrongo boyo. The net itself is just as redundant and fault tolerant as it >always was. If the dial up points of presence you use aren't as reliable as In that case, it's never lived up to it's hype. >always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust wrt personal availability? [deletia] -- One of the great lies of our age is the myth that Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 20-Dec-99 17:59:02 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451531 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Consistent with Curtis Bass' recent justification for his snippage: CB] They would have encountered them in previous posts of the thread, CB] and could have gone back to said previous posts were they so inclined. I am deleting almost all but the most recent new text. cbass2112@my-deja.com wrote: > > Still beating your wife? I see you failed to answer the question. No surprise there. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: nehrer@nospam.san.rr.com 20-Dec-99 16:27:26 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: +++GET YOUR FREE PENTIUM CELERON-300+++____________________________ From: "Sock Puppet" <nehrer@nospam.san.rr.com> sent to abuse@usenetserver.com Path: thoth.cts.com!mercury.cts.com!usc!howland.erols.net!news.idt.net!newsfeed.di rect.ca!cyclone-l3!cyclone-l3.usenetserver.com!news4.usenetserver.com.POSTED !not-for-mail Message-ID: <385AD7DC.1BD26A18@yahoo.com> From: PC <pc-reg_englsh@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.win95.misc,comp.os.msdos.djgpp,comp.os.netware.misc,comp. os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.os2.apps Subject: +++GET YOUR FREE PENTIUM CELERON-300+++______________________________________________________________ ______________________________45987ueroiu reuierjhweriouser wuhitouhw Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9D3A03F92B9A31DDCF077F6F" Lines: 132 X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: admin@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:39:18 EST Organization: UseNet Server, Inc. http://www.usenetserver.com - Home of the fastest NNTP servers on the Net. Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:39:56 +0300 Xref: thoth.cts.com comp.os.ms-windows.win95.misc:21710 comp.os.msdos.djgpp:18467 comp.os.netware.misc:20941 comp.os.os2.advocacy:31691 comp.os.os2.apps:17207 --------------9D3A03F92B9A31DDCF077F6F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ===================================================== Submit a simple form to order your Celeron-300MHz PC FOR ONLY $9.99 ***************************************************** CLICK HERE: http://63.71.76.38/reg_form_eng/index.htm ***************************************************** ===================================================== Submit a simple form to order your Celeron-300MHz PC FOR ONLY $9.99 ***************************************************** CLICK HERE: http://63.71.76.38/reg_form_eng/index.htm ***************************************************** --------------9D3A03F92B9A31DDCF077F6F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> <BODY onload="window.open('http://63.71.76.38/reg_form_eng/index.htm','RemoteWindo w')"> ===================================================== Submit a simple form to order your Celeron-300MHz PC FOR ONLY $9.99 ***************************************************** CLICK HERE: <A HREF="http://63.71.76.38/reg_form_eng/index.htm">http://63.71.76.38/reg_form _eng/index.htm</A> ***************************************************** ===================================================== Submit a simple form to order your Celeron-300MHz PC FOR ONLY $9.99 ***************************************************** CLICK HERE: <A HREF="http://63.71.76.38/reg_form_eng/index.htm">http://63.71.76.38/reg_form _eng/index.htm</A> ***************************************************** </HTML> --------------9D3A03F92B9A31DDCF077F6F-- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: CTS Network Services (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: yyyc186.illegaltospam@flashcom.net 20-Dec-99 18:36:29 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: which soundcard to buy? From: yyyc186.illegaltospam@flashcom.net In <jnlargxonggarwc.fn3fw91.pminews@news.tokyo.att.ne.jp>, on 12/21/99 at 08:52 AM, "Wayne Bickell" <wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp> said: >On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:38:47 -0800, Austy Garhi (n. d'e-pl.) wrote: >:>I'd appreciate your recommendations. This is what >:>I'd like to get from a soundcard: >:> >:>--COMES WITH OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER. >:>--Takes electret microphones input. >:>--Enables the VoiceType features of Warp 4; in other >:> words, it has the required sampling rate, etc. >:>--When returning from a SLEEP/STANDBY state of APM >:> (advcd. power mngmt.) the soundcard restarts with >:> FULL FUNCTIONALITY: the cheap soundcards fail to >:> process .WAV files after a STANDBY! >:> >:>As you can see, I'm not looking for "CBS-Recording- >:>Studios-on-PCI" type of card: just a >:>reliable card for OS/2. >:> >Go to: >http://www.os2voice.org/ >and look at the December newsletter. There >is a review of a PCI based soundcard that >works well in OS/2 based on a Crystal chip. Doesn't matter which brand or model you buy. In less than a year IBM will issue a fixpak breaking the product you chose, then have the odacity to blame a bug in the device driver which never changed. Here's an idea! Buy one that doesn't work at all today and never did. In about a year or so the "compile it once & ship it" development style no riding herd over fixpaks will probably introduce a bug into Warp which allows your card to magically start working. You'll be way ahead of the game then. Roland -- ----------------------------------------------------------- yyyc186.illegaltospam@flashcom.net To Respond delete ".illegaltospam" MR/2 Internet Cruiser 1.52 For a Microsoft free univers ----------------------------------------------------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp 21-Dec-99 08:52:28 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: which soundcard to buy? From: "Wayne Bickell" <wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp> On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:38:47 -0800, Austy Garhi (n. d'e-pl.) wrote: :>I'd appreciate your recommendations. This is what :>I'd like to get from a soundcard: :> :>--COMES WITH OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER. :>--Takes electret microphones input. :>--Enables the VoiceType features of Warp 4; in other :> words, it has the required sampling rate, etc. :>--When returning from a SLEEP/STANDBY state of APM :> (advcd. power mngmt.) the soundcard restarts with :> FULL FUNCTIONALITY: the cheap soundcards fail to :> process .WAV files after a STANDBY! :> :>As you can see, I'm not looking for "CBS-Recording- :>Studios-on-PCI" type of card: just a :>reliable card for OS/2. :> Go to: http://www.os2voice.org/ and look at the December newsletter. There is a review of a PCI based soundcard that works well in OS/2 based on a Crystal chip. Cheers Wayne ****************************************************** Wayne Bickell Tokyo, Japan wayne@tkb.att.ne.jp ****************************************************** Posted with PMINews 2 for OS/2 Running on OS/2 Warp 4 (UK) + FixPak 9 ****************************************************** --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: AT&T Internet Service (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: andrew@netneurotic.de 21-Dec-99 02:00:23 To: All 20-Dec-99 20:46:00 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote: > On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:46:40, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) > wrote: > > > Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:39:13, veit@borneo.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: > > > > > > Minix wan't free when Mr Torvalds started work on the Linux kernel. > > > Cheap, yes. Free, no. > > > > You seem to misunderstand the term "free" here, otherwise you wouldn't > > use "cheap" as a level. > > > I meant "cheap" as in "only USD 40 per license", which is the price I > remember from 1990. Compared to what a UNIX license cost back then, it > might just as well have been for free. Still, this is not what "free" means in regard to software like Minix and Linux. > > Minix was indeed not free (and I'm not sure whether it is today), but it > > was always free for education purposes if I remember correctly. > > > > Anyway, the main problem with Minix (from a Linus Thorvalds or hacker > > perspective) was that Andrew Tanenbaum (the Minix author) didn't want > > Minix to be extended into a full-blown OS, since the very idea of Minix > > is that it can be understood in six months. It was developed for > > education purposes at a university in the Nederlands and that's what it > > is still used for. > > > You are correct about Tanenbaum's goal for Minix. I think it is freely > downloadable nowadays, but I'm not sure if the source is available > (the "other" meaning of "free"). Of course the source is available, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to study it, would it? -- Fan of Woody Allen User of MacOS, BeOS, LinuxPPC Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: pcguido@attglobal.net 21-Dec-99 03:32:26 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:03 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: pcguido@attglobal.net Oh-Oh, your assessment of the value of SMP is off. Most people don't know how to use a computer well enough to get much benefit out of multiple processors; but, if you know how to use 'em, there's nothing better. It's like arguing SCSI vs IDE. For the average, everyday stuff (especially a one disk setup) IDE is fine; but if you feel the need for speed, go SCSI (lvd, 10k drives)! If you don't mind the hour-glass (hopefully because you're thinking); or, if you run a singe cpu-bound job, go uni -for everything else: smp. Guido In <385E1014.19D52435@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> writes: > > >Christian Gustafson wrote: > >> "David H. McCoy" <fake@forgitaboutit.com> wrote in message news:MPG.12c7372724637fb0989690@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com... >> > >> And now, they too are gone. >> > > >> > >I've got version 3 for Windows, and boy, I tell you, it is *unbelievably* >> > >unstable. You can simply open and close a few GIFs, and it hozes with >> > >a Dr. Watson fault. Needless to say, I didn't upgrade to v4. >> > > >> > >The new tools are cool and they work, sure, underneath, it's good old >> > >Colorworks, but it could up-and-die at any time. >> > > >> > I used version 1+. Got it from Kiyoinc back in the day. The interface really >> > needed work, but the multithreading was pretty decent. >> >> I had 2.0 for OS/2. The real shame of Colorworks back then was that it >> was so tight and far ahead of other graphics apps, especially with its >> multithreaded-ness and multiprocessor support, but IBM never followed- >> up with a Warp-era SMP client. > >One does not need multiple processors to enjoy a multithreaded application. > >> Your purchase of CW was bittersweet, then, unless you were willing to >> run in on OS/2 SMP 2.11 forever. > >I'm surprised SMP for PCs is still an issue. By now I would have expected the low cost PCs would have clued people into the >real value of SMP. IBM's decision to NOT release an SMP OS/2 still seems wise to me. The market, not IBM, rejected SMP. >Even Be's successes are on low cost, single processors systems where their threaded OS is superior. > --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: dave_yeo@mindlink.bc.ca 21-Dec-99 03:32:14 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:03 Subj: Re: OS2 comes in 9th (Re: OS2 garners 'OTHER' status in operating syste From: dave_yeo@mindlink.bc.ca (Dave Yeo) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:18:42, cbass2112@my-deja.com wrote: > > In article <zozo85gn5s.2b.uno@sage.40th.com>, > reply@only.n.news.40th.com wrote: > > > > For hard-hitting, knock-out numbers, click on this link. It has OS2 > > numbers (9th place, right ahead of ... Amiga): > > > > http://www.thecounter.com/stats/December/os.html > > > > Summary > > -- snip -- > > And how many of the approx. 1.7 million Win3.1 hits are running > Win-OS/2? It could be anywhere from zero to approx 1.7 million. The > point is that there is no way of knowing. > > That Win9x is popular is a given. So are Mickey-D's hamburgers. > > So is Spam. > Don't forget all of us who have to pretend to be a Win browser to get on sites. Dave --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: osbo082@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 04:32:01 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:03 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:53:50, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: |On 20 Dec 1999 17:12:11 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: |>On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:43:59, David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> |>said: |> |>|In article <OIf74.550$H_5.61262@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, kwilas@stardock.com |>|says... |>|>In article <385D21B4.4DEA6ED1@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote: |>|>>The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonly |>|>>accessed with a browser. My address book, phone lists and other critical |>|>>financial data are all safe and protected. |>|> |>|>That's all fine and wonderful when your Internet connection (and those |>|>of your web based service provider and anything in between) is working. |>| |>|Of course, even with my NEW CABLE MODEM:-), I prefer local stuff with backups. |>| |>|>What's that? Your DSL line is down? Well, I'm sure you'll be happy to |>|>know your data'll be safe until you get back. Course, you can't use |>|>it until then (less it's cached locally, but that's arguing against |>|>your point in this day and time). |>|> |>|>>Yes MY data is most important. |>| |>|Indeed. My data is safe and secure with me where I can get to it. C |>|Connection down? No problem. |>|Computer down? No problem. |>|House burned down? No problem. |>| |>|After all, that's what backup media and safe boxes are for. |>| |>|>Absolutely, but w/o being able to get at that data, it's worthless. |>|> |>|>Kris |>|> |>| |>|-- |>|--------------------------------------- |>|David H. McCoy |>|dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com |>|--------------------------------------- |> |>Sure and there was a bunch of people in Africa that thought it would |>be better to stick with drums because they could keep the logs and |>sticks stored locally too. |> |>My gawd, Magumbo what if I don't get a dial tone!!!!! | | If you don't get dial tone, your apps are gone, PERIOD. | | No attempts to call anyone that disagrees with you some | sort of throwback will change this. The net isn't quite | as redundant as it used to be. At this point, it's far | too unreliable to trust your applications to. It's not | redundant enough. | | When your net based services have the redunandancy and | high availability that you can throw at your local | servers or even your local workstations, then this sort | of application will start to make sense. All points well taken, except the current state of redundancy. Of course, maybe you cannot buy good redundancy for $19.95 a month from MSN, but that doesn't mean it is not available to those who need it and actually look for it. Is it too expensive?. . . .no doubt for many applications, however it isn't for all applications. IMO, somebody is a throw back if they adopt an all or nothing viewpoint. Life is too complex for simple-minded dogma. The hard cold and undeniable facts are that remote applications and data exists, its real, and it is being used by many people and in fact in many cases it is irreplaceable by local storage as the essential mission it accomplishes would be lost if it were. The fact is the debate on this subject ended some years ago, at least by those designing real systems. Now it is merely a textbook question where the answer is already largely known. Now it is true that some people still need to beat on logs to get their messages across, and it is also true that many of these people will still be beating on logs long after they should have stopped. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: osbo082@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 04:39:03 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:03 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:57:25, "Chad Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> said: | |> |> If you don't get dial tone, your apps are gone, PERIOD. |> |> No attempts to call anyone that disagrees with you some |> sort of throwback will change this. The net isn't quite |> as redundant as it used to be. At this point, it's far |> too unreliable to trust your applications to. It's not |> redundant enough. |> | |Wrongo boyo. The net itself is just as redundant and fault tolerant as it |always was. If the dial up points of presence you use aren't as reliable as |always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. | Yes even the 56k modem dial-up line can be reliable. I have been an IBM.Net user for about 4 years (now AT&T something). The fact is I use this system at least an average of 25 days a month, for an average of about 4 hours a day, dialing up maybe an average of 3 or 4 times a day for an approximate 1 hour connection. Results of this experiment are in about 4 years I think I have actually had to redial one time about 6 times to get a connection, and only two times in those 4 years where the second dial up failed. One time I got the connect on about the 4th dialup and one time that it actually took me about an hour to get a connection (where in astonishment I actually dialed about 20 times), which BTW, occurred one night around midnight on the Pacific coast. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 20-Dec-99 20:47:10 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:03 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> I use SMP with FreeBSD 3.1 - it is a compute server. 512MB RAM and 70 gig storage. That's for work. Before I ran an dual CPU SGI IRIX system. It's a niche system. For the general desktop, SMP is not as important nor has the market ever matured to justify NT's SMP support. Just look at what's selling despite NT's 2 CPU support and despite BeOSs SMP support and FreeBSD's SMP support. Dirt cheap PCs are in demand and faster connectivity. I wouldn't say that OS/2 should have acquired SMP and if it had SMP would not have mattered much to most of us desktop users. MS hasn't dropped the ball with SMP - they simply added a niche feature to NT and windows9x is a totally incapable OS. STILL the superior multitasking and efficient kernel of OS/2 and apparently the BeOS make them far better than NT and Windows9x for demanding stuff like multimedia and networking. Windows2000 is far too fat and CPU inefficient. Win9x users could use a better multitasking OS, not SMP. Windows is doomed in the home and at work it's going to last a while but the OS family seems unable to evolve. As for SCSI and IDE - I get the point and SCSI would be better than a dual processor IDE system. Still price point seems really important for desktops - even with MS's push for deploying higher end hardware. The market resists them. I like to think of the next wave of devices, systems with highly specialized and dedicated co-processors or complex processors as a kind of SMP. PSX II, NUON processor, etc. I think the addition of dual general purposes x86 CPUs is very inefficient - both cost and system complexity and doomed to fail to these speciality devices. pcguido@attglobal.net wrote: > Oh-Oh, your assessment of the value of SMP is off. Most people > don't know how to use a computer well enough to get much benefit > out of multiple processors; but, if you know how to use 'em, there's > nothing better. It's like arguing SCSI vs IDE. For the average, > everyday stuff (especially a one disk setup) IDE is fine; but if you > feel the need for speed, go SCSI (lvd, 10k drives)! > > If you don't mind the hour-glass (hopefully because you're thinking); > or, if you run a singe cpu-bound job, go uni -for everything else: smp. > > Guido > > In <385E1014.19D52435@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> writes: > > > > > >Christian Gustafson wrote: > > > >> "David H. McCoy" <fake@forgitaboutit.com> wrote in message news:MPG.12c7372724637fb0989690@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com... > >> > >> And now, they too are gone. > >> > > > >> > >I've got version 3 for Windows, and boy, I tell you, it is *unbelievably* > >> > >unstable. You can simply open and close a few GIFs, and it hozes with > >> > >a Dr. Watson fault. Needless to say, I didn't upgrade to v4. > >> > > > >> > >The new tools are cool and they work, sure, underneath, it's good old > >> > >Colorworks, but it could up-and-die at any time. > >> > > > >> > I used version 1+. Got it from Kiyoinc back in the day. The interface really > >> > needed work, but the multithreading was pretty decent. > >> > >> I had 2.0 for OS/2. The real shame of Colorworks back then was that it > >> was so tight and far ahead of other graphics apps, especially with its > >> multithreaded-ness and multiprocessor support, but IBM never followed- > >> up with a Warp-era SMP client. > > > >One does not need multiple processors to enjoy a multithreaded application. > > > >> Your purchase of CW was bittersweet, then, unless you were willing to > >> run in on OS/2 SMP 2.11 forever. > > > >I'm surprised SMP for PCs is still an issue. By now I would have expected the low cost PCs would have clued people into the > >real value of SMP. IBM's decision to NOT release an SMP OS/2 still seems wise to me. The market, not IBM, rejected SMP. > >Even Be's successes are on low cost, single processors systems where their threaded OS is superior. > > --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 20-Dec-99 20:54:13 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:03 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> Jim Stuyck wrote: > Joseph wrote: > > > The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonly > > accessed with a browser. > > Huh? You're not in the "data processing" business as a profession, I hope. It's no longer called "data processing." Advance Information systems technology is the new moniker. Yes I am a professional but not a professional PC data back-up specialist. Yes the internet and "web" is used by SOHO for doing data backups and yes I use the internet and services as well as ftp to "backup" critical data. Someone at SUN said the network is the computer. I think its time to recognize the real significance of that statement. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: ewill@lexi.athghost7038suus.net 21-Dec-99 05:17:10 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:04 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: ewill@lexi.athghost7038suus.net (The Ghost In The Machine) In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Chad Mulligan <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote on Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:57:25 -0800 <83m8hv$8od$1@news.campuscwix.net>: > ><jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message >news:slrn85sr5f.bht.jedi@localhost.localdomain... >> On 20 Dec 1999 17:12:11 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: >> >On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:43:59, David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> >> >said: >> > ><trimmed> >> >> If you don't get dial tone, your apps are gone, PERIOD. >> >> No attempts to call anyone that disagrees with you some >> sort of throwback will change this. The net isn't quite >> as redundant as it used to be. At this point, it's far >> too unreliable to trust your applications to. It's not >> redundant enough. >> > >Wrongo boyo. The net itself is just as redundant and fault tolerant as it >always was. If the dial up points of presence you use aren't as reliable as >always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. I do have a dumb question, though. Suppose there's an ISP/ASP called oopsie.net [+]. Now oopsie.net happens to be a real cheap (in more than one sense of the word!) ISP, and ultimately, after amassing a fair number of customers, goes under. Suppose customer 'foobar@oopsie.net' has established an identity. If he's used somebody outside of oopsie (say, Verisign [*]), all well and good -- although that merely pushes the problem back one level; now Verisign would have a headache of verifying that 'foobar@oopsie.net' has moved onto another ISP. If he's used oopsie.net to establish his identity in order to grab some programs (or some licenses), he's now either got to pay again for these programs, or, again, establish his new identity with the issuers of the certificates requiring his old identity in such a manner as to eliminate fraud (suppose Mister Hacker decided to do something evilly similar?). This problem obviously transcends mere network connectivity, and may also be related to such things as IRC bans (dynamic port assignments can make a reliable method of quickly banning hackers difficult, if not almost impossible). One almost wishes that each and every computer, location, and person be issued a 16-bit UUID for such an emergency -- and even then, the person can fake the UUID (how do we know he hasn't gimmicked the UUID card reader, or stolen another's card?). It would be harder to fake the computer's UUID, though it could be done; the location UUID might even be suspect, although that would take quite a lot of work and there's the risk that a sharp IT manager would notice that the routing doesn't look right... And of course there's the issue of crackers [@] breaking into oopsie.net and doing nasty things with it -- or even *owning* the ISP, letting their fellow crackers wreak havoc on the Net. (Needless to say, I suspect that bans of the form *!*@*.oopsie.net would be very quickly put into place at all major IRC hubs in such a case... :-) ) But I digress. [rest snipped] [+] The DNS shows that oopsie.net either doesn't exist, or can't receive E-mail messages (server failure). It also isn't registered with Internic, although with the new system of domain name registration, who knows? [*] www.verisign.com; they are a certificate service. I don't know if their services include individual verification (as opposed to site or applet verification), but it might be possible... :-) [@] The term "hackers" isn't altogether evil, although the popular press doesn't find them too popular. Strictly speaking, though, a hacker is one who does tasty hacks -- as opposed to a cracker, who jimmies his way into computer systems. One hack might be a very elegant graphics demo program (the Amiga used to abound with some very neat eye candy, for example, mostly written by Europeans). -- ewill@aimnet.com -- insert random misquote here --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Verio (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: ayamanita.nospam@bigfoot.com 21-Dec-99 05:16:13 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:04 Subj: Re: +++GET YOUR FREE PENTIUM From: Akira Yamanita <ayamanita.nospam@bigfoot.com> I also contacted whitewind.ru since it says "Copyright 1999 WhiteWind DVM Corporation." I haven't gotten a response from either company though. The form sends the information to comp_reg_en@chat.ru using a simple mail script. The page offers a Pentium II 366 for $9.95. I think that conflicts with the subject line, unless the $9.95 is for the upgrade. Sock Puppet wrote: > > sent to abuse@usenetserver.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Optimum Online (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 20-Dec-99 21:33:01 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:04 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> Bob Germer wrote: > On <385D21B4.4DEA6ED1@ibm.net>, on 12/19/99 at 01:19 PM, > Joseph <josco@ibm.net> said: > > > The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are > > commonly accessed with a browser. My address book, phone lists and > > other critical financial data are all safe and protected. Yes MY data > > is most important. I wouldn't want to argue with anyone about their > > fascination with collecting commercial software. Collecting software is > > a great hobby when put in the right perspective. > > What a bunch of crap. The safest place for data is on a local hard disk > which is mirrored and backed up with great frequency with the backup > duplicated and stored off-site in a safe facility. If my office burned up > any day but Sunday, I could lose no more than 4 hour's work since I do a > differential backup of the network every four hours. The tape is then put > in my car and taken home every day. A full backup is done every Saturday > after a final differential. The full backup is taken home that day along > with a copy of the final differential. Each Saturday I bring the oldest > full backup set to the office and use it for that day's full backup. The safest place is in a secure building where they have redundant power, multi lines to the network and ... well the place where Yahoo and Hotmail place their servers. As I've been told by those who toured the facilities when seeking a net presence for their DOT.COM. These are unique buildings. > I would NEVER in a hundred years consider storing information accessible > via the internet with a browser. If you do it and someone wants your data, > they will get it. There is no absolute security on the web, NONE. The best way to get to my data is to break into my office - or your car. The web has security - one speaks of security in terms of risks, not in absolutes. The risks of losing my data with a home spun backup system is greater than the risks of a service provider losing my data. I think the hacker risks are over stated - if you walk the streets and send checks in a mailbox then you take greater risks. > What do you do if your hard disk crashes and the network is down? How fast > can you retrieve 20 gigs of data from the network? Why would I need to get 20 MB of data if the network was down? I work on projects with files in tens to hundreds of kb. The content need not be large - text is simple. Such files are easily accessed and downloaded over a phone line. The phone service is more reliable than the power. SF has lost power in the last year but the phones worked, the network stayed and so did Yahoo. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org 20-Dec-99 21:39:20 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:04 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: "Chad Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> "Joseph" <josco@ibm.net> wrote in message news:385EDDD3.3391431E@ibm.net... > > > Jim Stuyck wrote: > > > Joseph wrote: > > > > > The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonly > > > accessed with a browser. > > > > Huh? You're not in the "data processing" business as a profession, I hope. > > It's no longer called "data processing." Advance Information systems technology > is the new moniker. > > Yes I am a professional but not a professional PC data back-up specialist. Yes > the internet and "web" is used by SOHO for doing data backups and yes I use the > internet and services as well as ftp to "backup" critical data. Someone at SUN > said the network is the computer. I think its time to recognize the real > significance of that statement. Yeah, The warning is paramount > > --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Hipcrime Vocabulary Organization (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org 20-Dec-99 21:44:09 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:04 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: "Chad Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message news:slrn85tao9.1q8.jedi@localhost.localdomain... > On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:57:25 -0800, Chad Mulligan <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: > > <TRIMMED> > >> > > > >Wrongo boyo. The net itself is just as redundant and fault tolerant as it > >always was. If the dial up points of presence you use aren't as reliable as > > In that case, it's never lived up to it's hype. > > >always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. > > Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced > to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved > with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust > wrt personal availability? > Well the end users that are part of my customer base don't have these difficulties. We actually take steps to anticipate their problems before they occur. > [deletia] > > -- > > One of the great lies of our age is the myth that > Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random > collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| > the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ > > Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Hipcrime Vocabulary Organization (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: nenad@my-deja.com 21-Dec-99 05:44:15 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:04 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: Nenad Milenkovic <nenad@my-deja.com> veit@borneo.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: > You haven't the slightest idea, what the Aurora kernel rely is. The way you say this, it looks like it's something more than updated and enhaced kernel for an operating system. Is there something special about Aurora kernel that positions it above other operating system's kernels, considering technological advancement in it? Nenad Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja Posting Service (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: osbo082@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 06:24:12 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:04 Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2 From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:14:50, Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> said: | |Windows 9x is horrible in this respect; installing or removing software can |hose a system easily, and there's nothing stopping a user from just up and |deleting the OS and/or application installation. (This is the old "I ran out |of disk space but I found all these files in C:\Windows that I know I didn't |put there so I deleted them. Now my PC won't boot.") IMO Win9x is pretty |much a worst-case TCO scenario for the hardware platform. About the only way |it's manageable at all is if you use something like Ghost that just does a |disk image reinstall -- and all that does is make the fix faster, not the |occurrances less frequent. | |OS/2 has the same problem that Windows 9x does in that it's really easy to |destroy system software (that "I deleted stuff" problem again). Thankfully it |wins big in two respects: most software doesn't go install new patches to the |OS (so installing or removing software doesn't tend to screw other things up), |and there's so little aftermarket software out there that users aren't likely |to be trying to install that nifty new game or screensaver. So I will |definitely grant you that TCO for OS/2 should be markedly better than Win9x. | |But NT ... well, NT is interesting from the POV of an administrator because |you can seriously lock it down such that it's really quite hard to muck with |the system software or applications. No new software, no modifications to old |software, no ability to delete software. Its big problem is that you have to |go visit each system to install or upgrade software (that registry thing is |just a cluster-fuck in terms of group system management) though of course |there are some fairly expensive tools out there to minimize that. (I think |those tools mostly shift the costs from labor to capital, rather than really |saving anything, but YMMV.) But if you want to install a fixed set of |software and leave it alone, well, NT is real good for that. Well one could say that if you can truly lockdown an NT system that same system locked down in OS/2 would be WSOD, which clearly, with its remote management features a lower COO. OTOH, if you do not lockdown the system, you have to deal with your users trying to run a lot of Win95 specific garbage on their NT systems. We have to be careful about how we rate the use of some of these optional features. The bottom line, and this has been argued at length is that Win 9x is a wannabe OS/2. Its feature list reads like an OS/2 feature list, yet it never quite arrives. NT on the other hand is the "promised" equivalent of OS/2. At one time it appeared it might be superior to OS/2 (assuming you can ignore who was manufacturing it), but the cross platform promise pretty much fell on its face. Now what we have is NT machines crashing right and left trying to install software and hardware designed for Win 9x. I won't argue this point as it is inarguable to me as I have experienced it first hand on dozens of installations. The net result is for the past 4 1/2 years, the computer industry in the name of protecting Microsoft marketshare has been fed the pablum for the masses in the form on Win9x. In order to protect NT from true competition on the merits of a true 32 bit operating system, Microsoft continues to divert development effort to this protection plan. NT suffers and OS/2 suffers and the customer suffers. Is this an evil plan? No I don't believe that. But I see it as a fact. Just that sometimes what we did in the past prevents us from advancing in the future. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: osbo082@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 06:29:14 To: All 21-Dec-99 03:29:04 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:19:56, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: |>always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. | | Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced | to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved | with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust | wrt personal availability? Actually, I think he is recommending that if and only if the END USERS in your organization are without any professional support. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 21-Dec-99 08:17:24 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: Thorne digest, volume 2451534 From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) Today's Thorne digest: 1> Balderdash. On what basis do you make that claim, Edwin. 1> Evidence please. Unnecessary, given that I only asked a question. Nevertheless, it is true: ] Message-ID: <3844BA98.32344157@groovyshow.com> ] ] I no longer feel I have the amount of stupidity necessary to hang around ] here. OS/2 is out of my life. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IFA B-111 (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 21-Dec-99 08:15:14 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451534 From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) Today's Amodeo digest: 1> What Dave allegedly enjoys is irrelevant. Very good, Marty. 1> Dave never said that. Very good, Marty. 1> Why the erroneous attribution Joe? He doesn't care about the truth. You didn't know that? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IFA B-111 (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 21-Dec-99 08:14:24 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451534 From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) Today's Bass digest: 1> Still beating your wife? Non sequitur. Hey Curtis, have you kept track of Lucien's latest antics? Now he's trying to attribute positions to me that I haven't taken. And not too long ago he changed his own argument. Now it's not that the sentence is ambiguous, but rather that it "grammatically" ambiguous. And have you noticed how he's ignored the Mozart example five times so far? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IFA B-111 (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: judithr@primenet.com 20-Dec-99 15:07:26 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: which soundcard to buy? From: judithr@primenet.com Right now Indelible Blue has a special on AOpen soundcards which have OS/2 drivers on the mfg. site, not in the box. I appears to have what you want but mine just came today and is not yet installed so I am not sure of that. Hope so, as I bought it so the voice app in Warp would work. I got voice working with a SB Awe64Value a year ago and never want to go through that again. The Indelible Blue or AOpen web pages would probably have the specs you need. >I'd appreciate your recommendations. This is what >I'd like to get from a soundcard: >--COMES WITH OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER. >--Takes electret microphones input. >--Enables the VoiceType features of Warp 4; in other > words, it has the required sampling rate, etc. >--When returning from a SLEEP/STANDBY state of APM > (advcd. power mngmt.) the soundcard restarts with > FULL FUNCTIONALITY: the cheap soundcards fail to > process .WAV files after a STANDBY! >As you can see, I'm not looking for "CBS-Recording- >Studios-on-PCI" type of card: just a >reliable card for OS/2. >:) Judith Russell judithr@primenet.com Saugus Web Coordinator http://www.hart.k12.ca.us/saugus --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 20-Dec-99 17:50:27 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> > > The WARP Server for e-business (Aurora) kernels are pretty much >complete rewrites of the old WARP Server/WARP 4 kernels, for both Uni >processing and SMP. Specifically new are the 32 bit IFS support (used >by JFS) and the significantly larger per process address space (3Gb). > >Brad BARCLAY > That SOUNDS like somethin' good, but since I'm not sure WHAT EXACTLY that would come in handy with, I have to ask :) How does that help OS/2? btw, that 3Gb, that IS 3 Gigabytes, right? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: fisa@jet.uk 21-Dec-99 10:23:08 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: +++GET YOUR FREE PENTIUM From: filippo sartori <fisa@jet.uk> HI By trying to go to a level up in the html address I got into a porno site.... I guess these guys wants your money.... Filippo --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: stan 21-Dec-99 21:30:08 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: InnoVal To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service! From: stan On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 02:48:04, Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> wrote: > stan wrote: > > > I've missed all this can someone pls provide a url for this isp > > TIA..... > > > > Stan.. > > Here's the scoop Stan: > > InnoVal In Partnership With IFST To Offer Low-Cost OS/2 ISP Service! > > For Immediate Release: December 10, 1999 > > IFST Inc, has joined in a business partnership arrangement with National > DialUp Services and InnoVal Systems Solutions, to provide a low-cost > nationwide ISP service for OS/2 users. ISP800, a private brand ISP for > corporate customers, is inaugurating service for consumers on January 3, > 2000. > > Extra special prices are available for any OS/2 user who pre-registers for > the service by December 30, 1999. In addition, three subscribers will be > selected, at random, from the first 100 OS/2 users who signup. These three > subscribers will receive free ISP service for one year until December 31, > 2000. > > Highlights of ISP800 service include: > > Your choice of > > Unlimited 56K access through an 800 dialup number or unlimited service > using a local dialup number. > > A high performance and high capacity POP3 email mailbox > > SMTP outbound email > > Toll free 24/7 technical support > > Very low cost for OS/2 users. ISP800 may also be used with Linux, Mac, and > > Windows95/98 client platforms. > > No signup fees. You may cancel the service at the end of any month. > > Anyone who travels, uses the Internet from more than one permanent > location, or lives in an area not supported by a local access number, is > encouraged to use the 800 number. Performance on the 800 number is equal > to that of local access numbers since all connections are automatically and > instantly re-directed through a close-proximity modem. Access with the 800 > > number is available anywhere in the United States where a dial tone is > available. THERE IS NEVER AN ADDITIONAL FEE FOR USING THE 800 > NUMBER TO ACCESS ISP800. Airfone (in plane service) and some hotels do > charge access fees when you dial an 800 number. > > ISP800 Prices: > > Regular service: $19.95 > For all OS/2 Users: $15.95 *** > > *** Anyone who pre-registers for the service by December 30, 1999, will > receive the first year of service for only $11.95 per month. You must be an > OS/2 user to pre-register at this price. Your pre-registration must be > received by 5:00pm on 12/30/99. > > Additional email accounts are $3.95 per month. Limit is four additional > email accounts. > > Please note: There is no direct USENET newsgroup access at this time. If > enough OS/2 users subscribe and there is sufficient interest, ISP800 will > add newsgroup access for OS/2 users. Deja (dejanews) and other > web-based newsgroup services may be used in lieu of standard USENET. > > For additional information, and to signup for ISP800, please visit > http://isp800.com/os2. In particular, see the price page and the FAQ page. > For additional information send an email to os2isp@innoval.com. > > There's MORE! > > IISP800 To Offer Newsgroup Access With ISP Account! > > For Immediate Release: December 15, 1999 > > IISP800 for OS/2 Users To Include Newsgroups > > Ft. Lauderdale, Florida - December 15, 1999. AFST Inc. is pleased to > announce that it will add high performance newsgroup service to ISP800. > This service will be in place when ISP800 for OS/2 is inaugurated on > January 3, 2000. > > "I am pleased with the number of pre-registrations we are receiving from > the OS/2 community," said Randy Perez, president of AFST, "and I am > overwhelmed by the constructive, helpful and informative suggestions we're > getting from OS/2 users. You told us, in no uncertain terms, that > newsgroups are vital to you because they are a lifeline to technical > support and product information about OS/2 and OS/2 software. Keep telling > us what we need to know to better serve you." > > AFST specializes in premium ISP services and Internet solutions. Its > flagship ISP service, ISP800, is providing special pricing to OS/2 users > throughout the United States. ISP800 offers 100% coverage in the United > States and unlimited Internet access through its unique toll free 800 > number technology. Coverage is available anywhere in the U.S. where a dial > > tone is available. ISP800 also plans to add local access service throughout > much of Canada in the near future. "We have to do it," said Perez. "I'm > amazed at how many OS/2 users there are in Canada. We can't provide 800 > number access in Canada, yet, due to tariff regulations. But we will add > local access numbers for as many of you as possible." > > For additional information, and to signup for ISP800, please visit > http://isp800.com/os2. In particular, see the price page and the FAQ page. > For additional information send an email to os2isp@innoval.com. > > Great Offer! > > Tim Martin > The OS/2 Guy > Warp City (http://warpcity.com) > "Special Y2K Discount For NEW Members!" > Thanks to all who replied, I've forwared it on to others who are interested..... --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 00:53:22 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> > >Minix wan't free when Mr Torvalds started work on the Linux kernel. >Cheap, yes. Free, no. > >Big problem with FreeOS I see is the transition from Assembly to C. >Might be a major speed bump. > Now this is weird. I have heard people say this before, but also are to understand, that C is not only the best langauge to use for pretty much anything, but that is extremely fast. I've heard that you can use assembly langauge in compilers that I guess might not support this or that feature, so if assembly is this really nice way of giving a lot of expandability to your code, why use C anymore? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 00:28:25 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> > >It is nothing that can be described in terms of lines of code, such that >replacing 10 files of the kernel with rewritten versions will produce >a M$ free OS. Large parts of the VM system have been written in 32 bit C >since OS/2 2.0, but still there is conceptual (algorithms, data structures) >property of M$ involved here. > Would Aurora be 100% M$ free code? > >Actually, for the DOS successor, which later split into OS/2 2.x vs. NT 3.1. > Sorry, does that mean that (now) hpfs386 (for /2) is now M$ free? > >Take exemap and analyze the kernel executable. There are about 10 main >16 bit segments (64K) and two large 32 bit segments (code, data). >Most of the 16 bit API (including the driver and IFS interface) is 16 bit, >and must remain 16 bit. Many data structures which have been published, >like the OS/2 "list-of-lists" (SAS, System anchor segment) are in 16 bit >segments, and must remain there, otherwise they'll break existing software. >The obscure session management (SESMGR.DLL), the KBD/MOU/VIO APIs are all >16 bit code, most of it even assembler. The SCI (system call interface), >even for 32 bit API functions, is hybride - the call gates go into 16 bit >code, and from there use a rather complicated (thanks to security enabling >services, performance measurement, and API tracing) procuedure to call >the actual 32 bit API handler. Most of the standard textmode applications, >including CMD.EXE are written in (partly 16 bit) assembler. > >Holger > If 16-bit is known as "real mode" (it takes what it needs w/o asking the OS, if I recall right?) and 32-bit is "protect mode" (it requests whatever resources it needs from the OS) would it not be better to have everything in 32-bit mode, so that the OS itself handles all the memory managment, and whatever else the program(s) need? Or am I missing the concept between user programs, and drivers etc? Trancser --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 00:38:27 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> >>Is there ANYTHING that OS/2 would (or does) NOTICABLY exceed Linux with?? > >Process/thread scheduling and DOS emulation. > >Holger I'm suprised you didnt also add the WPS in there :) (I still wish that OS/2 used a simular method of executing programs like Linux does - that and dynamic disk cache ....but I guess I'll stop saying that, since I doubt anyone would ever add such a feature to OS/2 ...sides me :) --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 00:14:07 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> > >So what? A FP12-Kernel is new...I am not talking about the frequency of >bugfixes or the timestamp of a recompiled kernel. Unix technology is >old and outdated. You can find out about this in discussions on porting >java efficiently to Linux (hint: Posix threads are garbage for usable >multithreading under Linux - it is a conceptual flaw, not implementation >problem). > I do not doubt that there have been changes made to OS/2's kernel but, it still seems that OS/2 needs quite a system to run (this is even stated on IBM's webpage(s) - or were, I cant say I've visited any IBM websites in a while) comfortably. I used to have OS/2 running on a 486/sx 25mhz w/ 8 (upgraded to 20)megs of ram and a li'l 210meg hard drive (which I later installed a 1620meg wd) since OS/2 does use a disk space, but thats ok, I dont really mind that part. What I dont understand, is that regardless of how stable OS/2 is, it can be really annoying when every bit of physical memory is being consumed on a small low-memory system like I was using it on. And by having virtually no free physcial memory free, caused major disk activity with both opening the program and swapping (and on a low- memory 486 system, swappings not fun at all), and swapping on a crappy li'l 210 w/ OS/2 was a bit of a wait. I doubt I would've had to much of a problem, if OS/2 ...perhaps had a dynamically sizing caching system simular to Linux. Cause even if I would've had NO free memory free, since I used a lot of command line based utils have the program I was using cached in memory I believe would've made for a lot less stress on the hd's (cause it really does make a difference in Linux). >>are added. I cant say 100% technically myself, but I know that damned >>kernel's updated A *LOT* ....heh. > >If you can't talk about 100% technical, then please better be quiet. > I would have to direct you to my reference above. I've had OS/2 since v2.99. And since then, IBM's system recommendations seem to go up rather than ....at least stay the same. Although, I have been able to upgrade to at least a Pentium 60mhz (w/ an 120mhz OD in the 60's place) and will not deny that the performance isnt noticably different from my 486 days. > >You think? I "think" that that weather will be better tomorrow. I might be >dead wrong there. I do know pretty well though what's in the OS/2 kernel >and compared to that in the Linux kernel. > I'm sure there are significant difference between the two. > >You haven't the slightest idea, what the Aurora kernel rely is. > >Holger Your right. I'm sure theres absolutely nothing I could tell you about Aurora's kernel that you dont already know. Actually I really WOULD like to know more myself. I think that would really make good reading material. Documentation that is since I really wouldnt know what I'd be looking at, if it were in the form of source (something, believe it or not, I am trying to make an effort of, I would absolutely love to take part in bringin' SOME programs hopefully usefull to someone for OS/2). I still think OS/2's the baddest OS on the planet, but I dont think what I'm wishin' for is that much to ask, and even if it is ....then maybe someday after I master C (wishful think -ing to probably) provided it can actually be done - I've been told so - I'll make that possible myself! later! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 01:30:16 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Using LXLite on OS/2 From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> I was wondering what possible disadvantages there might be, with using lxlite on OS/2 (to compress the entire OS and all programs installed)? Also, do the executables being loaded that have been lxlited need to actually be uncompressed by the system, and would this mean that the whole program would be loaded into swap memory immediately, as to an executable not compressed w/ lxlite? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 00:42:04 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> >IBM has weeded out much of the old 16 bit code, but there is still some in >there. The reason 16 bit code still exists in OS/2 is that the stuff left is >highly optimized assebly code. For the most part there is no advantage to >going to 32 bit code and some portions may actually take a performance hit >going to 32 bit. And to answere the last question, of course they would >work, the question is what is the gain by going to 32 bit? > Wouldnt there be a speed difference? any at all? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 01:58:28 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:02 Subj: Getting EXT2 support under Aurora.... From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> I GUESS it might be, because it CANT be done (I"m REALLY hoping that isnt the case!) but IS IT POSSIBLE to get EXT2 support going under Aurora?! I've had the damn ext2 driver for /2 loaded in aurora's config before, along with all the other required/necessary files, that are stated in the doc's , YET, about the only thing I get upon bootup, is a drive that's UNformatted, and has 27 or so megs of free space available?! I've TRIED using LVM to mount the drive, but it ends up complaining it cant WRITE to the drive ...that its I guess write-protected or some other bullony! So ...is there ANY solution, or is reinstalling warp4 client the only thing I could do? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 04:55:25 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:03 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> > >There are some loose ends that the real source code could resolve. And >there are some parts of the kernel for which interfaces should be available, >but aren't. > Hmm....perhaps this is where a disassemble job could come in :) even though THAT method wouldnt be legal I'm sure. > >Yes, it is possible to write a replacement, the data structures and disk >layout is known - see the Linux "read-only" driver, but since the actually >used allocation and defragmentation algorithm hasn't been published, it >probably won't behave exactly the same. > >Holger > Your probably right. Let's pull out DIA (or whatever that disassembler for OS/2's called :) ....oh well. damn. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net 21-Dec-99 11:58:13 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:03 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 01:00:47, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) wrote: > Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote: > > > On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:46:40, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) > > wrote: > > > > > Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:39:13, veit@borneo.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: > > > > > > > > Minix wan't free when Mr Torvalds started work on the Linux kernel. > > > > Cheap, yes. Free, no. > > > > > > You seem to misunderstand the term "free" here, otherwise you wouldn't > > > use "cheap" as a level. > > > > > I meant "cheap" as in "only USD 40 per license", which is the price I > > remember from 1990. Compared to what a UNIX license cost back then, it > > might just as well have been for free. > > Still, this is not what "free" means in regard to software like Minix > and Linux. > The original poster used the phrase "a freely available OS". From his choice of words I assumed he was referring to the price. Minix did cost money when I first heard of it, although I didn't know some could get it for nothing. I do agree with you that both Linux and Minix are "free", in the sense that their source is available to all. It's a good thing too, in case you wondered. <G> > > > Minix was indeed not free (and I'm not sure whether it is today), but it > > > was always free for education purposes if I remember correctly. > > > > > > Anyway, the main problem with Minix (from a Linus Thorvalds or hacker > > > perspective) was that Andrew Tanenbaum (the Minix author) didn't want > > > Minix to be extended into a full-blown OS, since the very idea of Minix > > > is that it can be understood in six months. It was developed for > > > education purposes at a university in the Nederlands and that's what it > > > is still used for. > > > > > You are correct about Tanenbaum's goal for Minix. I think it is freely > > downloadable nowadays, but I'm not sure if the source is available > > (the "other" meaning of "free"). > > Of course the source is available, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to > study it, would it? > It sounds logical, now that you say it. I never took the step of actually procuring Minix (at the time, Windows 3.x provided better solutions for my business needs; later that became OS/2 and only recently have I started glancing at Linux). Of course, Microsoft assumes that one can become a MSCE without ever glancing at the source of their products, so at least some people are convinced one can study stuff without access to sources. Karel Jansens jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net ======================================================= "The method employed I would gladly explain, While I have it so clear in my head, If I had but the time and you had but the brain - But much yet remains to be said." the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll) ======================================================= --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 21-Dec-99 12:39:01 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:03 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:14:14 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: [...] >What I dont understand, is that regardless of how stable OS/2 is, it >can be really annoying when every bit of physical memory is being >consumed on a small low-memory system like I was using it on. And >by having virtually no free physcial memory free, caused major disk >activity with both opening the program and swapping (and on a low- >memory 486 system, swappings not fun at all), and swapping on a It is a different paging strategy between Linux and OS/2. It seems to be a brain virus injected by DOS that people still believe in the "how much memory is free" myth. A reasonable OS should use any available resource as efficiently as possible. It is nonsense *not* to use the available memory. If you just drive between home and workplace, you basically need one road, not all the other highways and roads all over the country, and taking into acocunt that there are no other people needing roads for going to work like you, you should have plenty of free space you won't ever need? Wrong, there is a lot of stuff going on which doesn't have anything to do with just people commuting, such as transports to fill your supermarket with goods, transports which carry things to plants for producing consumer goods, etc. Same with an OS. Unix uses a greedy paging strategy of "processes take what they can acquire". This results in extreme performance degradation when the system is under load. OS/2, coming from server experiences, cannot be brought to the ground that easily, it pages in from swap space which requires a fast swap disk to be efficient (available in decent servers), but will behave in a balanced way under load. Actually, even Warp-non-server is better suited as a server OS than as a client system. The point is here that most people don't use OS/2 in the way it was designed for. >crappy li'l 210 w/ OS/2 was a bit of a wait. I doubt I would've had >to much of a problem, if OS/2 ...perhaps had a dynamically sizing >caching system simular to Linux. Cause even if I would've had NO >free memory free, since I used a lot of command line based utils >have the program I was using cached in memory I believe would've >made for a lot less stress on the hd's (cause it really does make a >difference in Linux). Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 21-Dec-99 12:45:10 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:03 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:53:45 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: > > >>Minix wan't free when Mr Torvalds started work on the Linux kernel. >>Cheap, yes. Free, no. >> >>Big problem with FreeOS I see is the transition from Assembly to C. >>Might be a major speed bump. >> > >Now this is weird. I have heard people say this before, but also are >to understand, that C is not only the best langauge to use for pretty >much anything, but that is extremely fast. I've heard that you can >use assembly langauge in compilers that I guess might not support >this or that feature, so if assembly is this really nice way of giving >a lot of expandability to your code, why use C anymore? Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language. C is a pretty well suited language to write lousy code, and C++ is even a negative improvement to that. If you write assembler, you have to consider what you do, how you layout structures, pass parameters, call procuedures etc. because every conceptual flaw will shoot back at you pretty fast. With a high level language, you write something and hope that the compiler will optimize your nonsense. Garbage-In, Garbage-out. Disk space is dirt cheap, and you aren't interested why the hell such a lousy little DLL occupies 800KBytes on disk - you normally can't find out at all anyway, normally. Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 21-Dec-99 12:53:03 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:03 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:28:50 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: >> >>It is nothing that can be described in terms of lines of code, such that >>replacing 10 files of the kernel with rewritten versions will produce >>a M$ free OS. Large parts of the VM system have been written in 32 bit C >>since OS/2 2.0, but still there is conceptual (algorithms, data structures) >>property of M$ involved here. >> > >Would Aurora be 100% M$ free code? No. >>Actually, for the DOS successor, which later split into OS/2 2.x vs. NT 3.1. >> > >Sorry, does that mean that (now) hpfs386 (for /2) is now M$ free? No. The real stupidity, American greed has produced, is software patents. You don't need a single line of code from M$, but still may have an entirely polluted product. >If 16-bit is known as "real mode" (it takes what it needs w/o asking the OS, No. 16 bit in the kernel is 16 bit protected mode code; with the few exceptions of the DOS emulation engine that's part of the kernel, which jump between VPM and V86 mode. >if I recall right?) and 32-bit is "protect mode" (it requests whatever >resources it needs from the OS) would it not be better to have everything in >32-bit mode, so that the OS itself handles all the memory managment, and You can't have everything in 32 bit code, unless you give up compatibility with legacy software, for instance also old 1.x device drivers. With OS/2 PPC, these old customs were cut away, so this version should be pretty purely 32 bit only. Infact, the memory management stuff is 32 bit code. >whatever else the program(s) need? Or am I missing the concept between user >programs, and drivers etc? Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 21-Dec-99 12:57:03 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:03 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:42:09 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: >>IBM has weeded out much of the old 16 bit code, but there is still some in >>there. The reason 16 bit code still exists in OS/2 is that the stuff left is >>highly optimized assebly code. For the most part there is no advantage to >>going to 32 bit code and some portions may actually take a performance hit >>going to 32 bit. And to answere the last question, of course they would >>work, the question is what is the gain by going to 32 bit? >> > >Wouldnt there be a speed difference? any at all? No, that's a marketing myth that M$ brought into people's heads, that 32 = 2 * 16. It is the case if you continuously only add numbers, but this is something operating systems don't do. What is expensive is switching between 16 and 32 bit all the time, and WinXX does a lousy job there, whereas the OS/2 kernel is rather well balanced there, giving the impression it could be purely 32 bit code. It isn't but the difference is no longer visible. Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 21-Dec-99 12:57:27 To: All 21-Dec-99 10:47:03 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:38:54 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: >>>Is there ANYTHING that OS/2 would (or does) NOTICABLY exceed Linux with?? >> >>Process/thread scheduling and DOS emulation. >> >>Holger > >I'm suprised you didnt also add the WPS in there :) The WPS is a nice concept and a lousy implementation. -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jmalloy@borg.com 21-Dec-99 12:42:05 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:30:29 Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451534.3463665^-.97958438 From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> Tholen's still tholening: [But it's not doing him any good!] Bye! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jmalloy@borg.com 21-Dec-99 12:42:11 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:30:29 Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451534.45243^-.56998097 From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> Tholen tholened some more: [Some lie or other about the truth; truth and Tholen are two separate and unequal qualities!] Bye! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jmalloy@borg.com 21-Dec-99 12:42:14 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:30:29 Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451534.32453215^-.8583045687 From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> Tholen tholened: [Nothing of interest to anybody but Tholen.] There you have it! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: lucien@metrowerks.com 21-Dec-99 17:53:19 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:30:29 Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451534 From: lucien@metrowerks.com In article <83nctp$pi7$1@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote: > Today's Bass digest: > > 1> Still beating your wife? > > Non sequitur. > > Hey Curtis, have you kept track of Lucien's latest antics? Hey Curtis, have you kept track of Dave's latest antics? > Now he's > trying to attribute positions to me that I haven't taken. Now he's trying to divert attention from the beating he's taking in the other thread by making unsubstantiated claims in an irrelevant exchange with you. > And not too > long ago he changed his own argument. And not too long ago he lost track of his own argument. > Now it's not that the sentence > is ambiguous, but rather that it "grammatically" ambiguous. Now it's the same ambiguity at issue as always. > And have > you noticed how he's ignored the Mozart example five times so far? And have you noticed his continued reliance on diversionary irrelevancies and invective? Lucien S. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: KevH@yorkie.dabsolLL.co.uk 21-Dec-99 18:14:09 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:30:29 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: KevH@yorkie.dabsolLL.co.uk Right! Seems that this is one to erase from the list of possible choices for obtaining some native apps. Thanks to everyone for their input/views. It is quite a journey for me, a new user, obtaining info on residual app availability and what they do. More of a problem is tracking down a supplier. Anyway, enough of my problems Doc. What do you use in place of ColorWorks? What type of app is Embellish? Regards, Kevin --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jimf@frostbytes.com 21-Dec-99 08:29:11 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2 From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> Richard Steiner wrote: > > Here in comp.os.os2.misc, Michael W. Cocke <cocke@catherders.com> > spake unto us, saying: > > >Since when is ls-l defaulted to sort by name? Last time I used it > >(Linux version unknown), it wasn't. > > To my knowledge, the GNU ls command has *always* defaulted to sort the > directory display by filename. That's correct. The BSD version did too, at least by BSD 4.2 (the first version I used). I'm pretty sure the V7 ls didn't, but the SysIII and SysV versions did. > Of course, dotfiles sort to the top, and filenames starting with caps > sort ahead of filenames starting with lowercase, but that is normal for > a Unix system (FreeBSD and Solaris seem to behave the same way). This is a natural ramification of the ASCII collation sequence. jim --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Road Runner (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: reiher@my-deja.com 21-Dec-99 13:17:00 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (pol From: reiher@my-deja.com I'd even live with a Macintosh if the right apps were there, but they are not. Which apps exactly do you mean? What sort of special euqipment do you need? I use OS/2 and have all the apps I need. A good friend of mine uses a Macintosh and has no problems concerning programs. It seems you haven't really looked into the subject properly. Also, I like using a system which doesn't crash regularly, just as most Linux or Apple -Users do. You are certainly right, there are MORE apps for Windows (gee, I wonder why that is?) but there are certainly enough apps for the normal end-user for other operating systems. The other thing is, you are also right to tell people to stop bickering, but what are you doing in the first place? I think people can talk about what they favour and I believe in having a choice. Showing people alternatives is important to me, so why should I not tell them to try OS/2 or Linux or Apple? Greetings/2 reiher Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jimf@frostbytes.com 21-Dec-99 08:44:02 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2 From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> Don Hills wrote: > > In article <3859981A.943B0922@frostbytes.com>, > Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote: > > >Sure you can. You can disable the ability for them to run CMD.EXE. But I was > >thinking of locking it down by making the system and applications directories > >non-writable and non-deletable. They can go to town on the machine and still > >not screw up the configuration. > > You can't stop Word running CMD.EXE for you, though. As for removing > permissions from directories, I spent much of last year fixing the > messes caused by people finding ways to destroy things that they > shouldn't have been able to get to. And the funny part of it is, the > users were all police officers... You sure can stop Word from running CMD.EXE; just remove the execute privilege from the ACL. Done. (You almost certainly want the admin group to be able to run it, though, I bet you'll have booting problems otherwise.) But really this is not important because CMD.EXE access doesn't hurt anything that couldn't be hurt through some application. As for destroying things they shouldn't have been able to get to, you screwed up permissions if they managed to do that. About the only thing a user can do in a properly locked-down NT system is use a partitioning tool (and not the DOS/Win9x partitioning tool) to blow away the partition. This approach will of course work anything that resides on the local disk. Generally problems doing this come down to one or two configuration problems: 1) You're using FAT instead of NTFS so you don't have filesystem access control. 2) You're allowing users to run as administrator. I've run public NT clusters and the only problem we had was that NT doesn't have quota limits so you have to go in and clean up stuff in user directories regularly (we set up an "at" job that helped a lot, but of course you can only automate this task so much). Win2K is supposed to fix this, but it's going to be awhile before I get around to touching Win2K (say, a service pack or three, if at all). This is not to say that I don't have a lot of gripes about NT security. It's asinine that they give you virtually no tools for creating a secure system, and that it installs wide-open, and that it has no quota control, and that you have to log out of a user account in order to log into an admin account (at least using the standard tools). Gripes aside, it is possible to lock down NT quite tightly -- and it's not even all that hard. jim --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Road Runner (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: christian.g@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 07:58:26 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> Microsoft has an excellent package for getting up to speed on Active Directory and Windows2000: http://www.microsoft.com/directaccess/training/sales/hotkit/win2000.asp For $129, you get not-for-resale copies of 2000 Workstation, Server, and Advanced Server when they ship, an extensive training kit, and a MS T-shirt. A great deal, from a company that still sells PC OSes. -- :::::===== Christian Gustafson :::::===== Marina City, Chicago, Illinois ========== ========== --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com 21-Dec-99 08:48:03 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> On <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-VWVyUo876hH6@localhost>, on 12/21/99 at 11:58 AM, jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) said: > Of course, Microsoft assumes that one can become a MSCE without ever > glancing at the source of their products, so at least some people are > convinced one can study stuff without access to sources. Ah, but consider THAT source. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12 MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67 Aut Pax Aut Bellum ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: yyyc186.illegaltospam@flashcom.net 21-Dec-99 07:48:12 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: which soundcard to buy? From: yyyc186.illegaltospam@flashcom.net In <jnlargxonggarwc.fn3k8s0.pminews@news.tokyo.att.ne.jp>, on 12/21/99 at 10:26 AM, "Wayne Bickell" <wayne@SPAM.tkb.att.ne.jp> said: >On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:36:58 -0500, yyyc186.illegaltospam@flashcom.net >wrote: >:>Doesn't matter which brand or model you buy. In less than a year IBM will >:>issue a fixpak breaking the product you chose, then have the odacity to >:>blame a bug in the device driver which never changed. >:> >:>Here's an idea! Buy one that doesn't work at all today and never did. In >:>about a year or so the "compile it once & ship it" development style no >:>riding herd over fixpaks will probably introduce a bug into Warp which >:>allows your card to magically start working. >:> >:>You'll be way ahead of the game then. >:> >:>Roland >If you "love" IBM so much why aren't you using another OS? >Or is it you just love to bitch? Hardly. I've used Warp for years now and I do use other operating systems. Warp 4 with fp8 was one of the most stable OS's this side of DR DOS I've ever used. I do use other operating systems, but over the course of the years have accumulated somewhere between $30,000-40,000 worth of development tools and applications mostly cross platform, but hosted on Warp. In the releases since FP8 the fixpak development team has degenerated into a non caring, non testing, ship anything kind of group which would make MS proud. Around the end of March I will be forced to evaluate the OS's I currently use for development. If I wasn't in the middle of writing a book on VMS development and hadn't started it using my Warp toolset I would be making that decision now. Roland -- ----------------------------------------------------------- yyyc186.illegaltospam@flashcom.net To Respond delete ".illegaltospam" MR/2 Internet Cruiser 1.52 For a Microsoft free univers ----------------------------------------------------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net 21-Dec-99 15:58:06 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 05:53:45, "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: > > > >Minix wan't free when Mr Torvalds started work on the Linux kernel. > >Cheap, yes. Free, no. > > > >Big problem with FreeOS I see is the transition from Assembly to C. > >Might be a major speed bump. > > > > Now this is weird. I have heard people say this before, but also are > to understand, that C is not only the best langauge to use for pretty > much anything, but that is extremely fast. I've heard that you can > use assembly langauge in compilers that I guess might not support > this or that feature, so if assembly is this really nice way of giving > a lot of expandability to your code, why use C anymore? > Speaking from a totally non-programmer's point of view (this means: I'll probably get corrected and likely even flamed even before I actually post this <G>): I heard the advantage of C is not as much the speed (quite the reverse, in fact), but portability and ease of maintainance/development (both being major pluses for a "free" O/S). Assembly is good because it squizes the last drop of efficience out of a CPU. Karel Jansens jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net ======================================================= "The method employed I would gladly explain, While I have it so clear in my head, If I had but the time and you had but the brain - But much yet remains to be said." the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll) ======================================================= --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: OS2Guy@WarpCity.com 21-Dec-99 07:53:12 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in WindowsCRAP From: Tim Martin <OS2Guy@WarpCity.com> Christian Gustafson wrote: > Microsoft has ... <snip> has crap. > -- > :::::===== Christian Gustafson > :::::===== Marina City, Chicago, Illinois This post is completely off topic for this newsgroup but expected from a Microsoft plant. Take a hike. Tim Martin The OS/2 Guy Warp City (http://warpcity.com) "Y2K NEW Member Discounts Now Available!" --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Warp City (http://warpcity.com) (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: lucien@metrowerks.com 21-Dec-99 16:15:18 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!! From: lucien@metrowerks.com In article <83mngq$9to$1@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote: > Lucien writes: > > Therefore, given that your position has now been established as > > > > "The JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification", > > On what basis do you claim that my position has been established as > that, Lucien? By mutual agreement that that is your position. Because you provided no explicit answer to the question "Is the JDK sentence ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification?" (an illogical claim of irrelevancy was supplied instead), you tacitly agreed to the conditions I set forth in my original inquiry and accepted "The JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification" as your position. You may, at any time, override this assumption by supplying an explicit (i.e. yes/no) answer to the original question. Otherwise, the debate continues based on my assumption. > > explain why these two variants of the JDK sentence are grammatical, > > coherent sentences of English: > > > > "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality." > > > > "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality." > > Irrelevant, given that the grammaticality amd coherence of the original > sentence is not the issue. Illogical response, given that we're concerned with the grammaticality and coherence of the JDK sentence variants in this section, not the original JDK sentence. Specifically, your assertion that the original JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT quantification (regardless of the source of the disambiguation) predicts that one of these variants of the JDK sentence should be impossible; yet both are grammatical, coherent sentences of English. Explain why. Lucien S. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com 21-Dec-99 16:37:08 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451534 From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) >Ian "The Moron" Tholen >[Joe] doesn't care about the truth. Of course he doesn't care about the truth when he's reading your posts. Your posts have no truth in them at all. It's not truth he's looking for in your posts, but rather, the ubiquitous, moronic, hypocritical "Tholen Nonsense" to deservedly mock as the dimwitted claptrap that it is --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com 21-Dec-99 16:47:19 To: All 21-Dec-99 20:31:00 Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!! From: jglatt@spamgone-borg.com (Jeff Glatt) You know, pointing out what a dim-witted hypocrite Tholen is, has gotten way too easy nowadays. Nevertheless, it's fitting that it be pointed out the numerous instances of him being a hypocritical fool, especially since the hypocrisy is right here in the same thread, contained in his responses to another ongoing Tholen detractor (ie, someone not so in love with OS/2 that he is blind to just how truly stupid Tholen can be). >>Curtis Bass >>"Typical indication of *the* truth by [Tholen]?" >Ian "The Moron" Tholen >What is a question mark doing inside the quotation marks, Curtis? ... >Under certain circumstances, "up" *IS* a preposition. From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!! Date: 18 Dec 1999 01:26:45 GMT Organization: IFA B-111 Message-ID: <83ensl$r46$1@news.hawaii.edu> Unable to prove your position, I see you're trying to narrow things down by restricting your attention to grammar. What's next, restricting your attention to spelling? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jim.moseby@texfiblends.com 21-Dec-99 14:18:25 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:19 Subj: Re: +++GET YOUR FREE PENTIUM From: Jim Moseby <jim.moseby@texfiblends.com> If you have javascript enabled for mail and newsgroups, they can send a message that will open your browser and take you to wherever they want you to go. In Netscape, click Edit/Preferences/Advanced and uncheck 'Enable Javascript for mail and news...'. HTH - JM/CNA Stephen Bennett wrote: > > This bloody thing opened automatically:-(((( > > Would you trust the following? > > ***your credit card information is needed to check, that you are over 18 > years old to participate in this program. There are no money will be > transferred from your card until you read our additional information and > accept the terms (the terms will be sent to you by e-mail), followed by > confirmation *** > > Oh yes, I'll give you my card number. Right. > > S > > "Tim Cannell" <tim@jacqueline.prestel.co.uk> wrote in message > news:83ded2$2ibi$1@quince.news.easynet.net... > Dont be stupid... > PC <pc-reg_englsh@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:385AD7DC.1BD26A18@yahoo.com... > > ===================================================== > Submit a simple form to order your Celeron-300MHz PC > FOR ONLY $9.99 > ***************************************************** > CLICK HERE: http://63.71.76.38/reg_form_eng/index.htm > ***************************************************** > > ===================================================== > Submit a simple form to order your Celeron-300MHz PC > FOR ONLY $9.99 > ***************************************************** > CLICK HERE: http://63.71.76.38/reg_form_eng/index.htm > ***************************************************** --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Texfi Industries, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jedi@dementia.mishnet 21-Dec-99 19:26:11 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: jedi@dementia.mishnet () On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:44:19 -0800, Chad Mulligan <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: > ><jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message >news:slrn85tao9.1q8.jedi@localhost.localdomain... >> On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:57:25 -0800, Chad Mulligan ><cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: >> > ><TRIMMED> > > >> >> > >> >Wrongo boyo. The net itself is just as redundant and fault tolerant as it >> >always was. If the dial up points of presence you use aren't as reliable >as >> >> In that case, it's never lived up to it's hype. >> >> >always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. >> >> Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced >> to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved >> with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust >> wrt personal availability? >> > >Well the end users that are part of my customer base don't have these >difficulties. We actually take steps to anticipate their problems before >they occur. That's fine for your little infintesimal corner of the net but pretty much meaningless for the rest of it. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jedi@dementia.mishnet 21-Dec-99 19:20:23 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: jedi@dementia.mishnet () On 21 Dec 1999 04:32:02 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: >On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:53:50, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: > >|On 20 Dec 1999 17:12:11 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: >|>On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:43:59, David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> >|>said: >|> >|>|In article <OIf74.550$H_5.61262@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, kwilas@stardock.com >|>|says... >|>|>In article <385D21B4.4DEA6ED1@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote: >|>|>>The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonl [deletia] >|> >|>Sure and there was a bunch of people in Africa that thought it would >|>be better to stick with drums because they could keep the logs and >|>sticks stored locally too. >|> >|>My gawd, Magumbo what if I don't get a dial tone!!!!! >| >| If you don't get dial tone, your apps are gone, PERIOD. >| >| No attempts to call anyone that disagrees with you some >| sort of throwback will change this. The net isn't quite >| as redundant as it used to be. At this point, it's far >| too unreliable to trust your applications to. It's not >| redundant enough. >| >| When your net based services have the redunandancy and >| high availability that you can throw at your local >| servers or even your local workstations, then this sort >| of application will start to make sense. > >All points well taken, except the current state of redundancy. Of >course, maybe you cannot buy good redundancy for $19.95 a month from >MSN, but that doesn't mean it is not available to those who need it >and actually look for it. If you can't buy it from the likes of MSN then it's impractical for nearly any consumer under discussion. The level of expertise and expense required to ensure reliability is too steep when compared to alternate less-networked approaches. > >Is it too expensive?. . . .no doubt for many applications, however it >isn't for all applications. > >IMO, somebody is a throw back if they adopt an all or nothing >viewpoint. Life is too complex for simple-minded dogma. The hard >cold and undeniable facts are that remote applications and data >exists, its real, and it is being used by many people and in fact in >many cases it is irreplaceable by local storage as the essential >mission it accomplishes would be lost if it were. OTOH, those of us that are responsible for corporate services don't view this trivializing of the inherent reliability problems of the current net as productive. It can be fixed, but for the time being it's broken. Merely tolerating it like some 3rd world country with a funky phone network is NOT the approach to take. We simply deserve better and shouldn't trust critical services to the net as it is. > >The fact is the debate on this subject ended some years ago, at least >by those designing real systems. Now it is merely a textbook question >where the answer is already largely known. > >Now it is true that some people still need to beat on logs to get >their messages across, and it is also true that many of these people >will still be beating on logs long after they should have stopped. -- One of the great lies of our age is the myth that Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jedi@dementia.mishnet 21-Dec-99 19:29:00 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: jedi@dementia.mishnet () On 21 Dec 1999 06:29:28 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: >On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:19:56, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: > >|>always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. >| >| Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced >| to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved >| with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust >| wrt personal availability? > >Actually, I think he is recommending that if and only if the END USERS >in your organization are without any professional support. A 'new ISP' won't do. You have to basically 'be your own ISP'. That makes the situation more complicated and increases overhead. It's also a level of reliability you wouldn't tolerate for your other criticial network (phone). -- One of the great lies of our age is the myth that Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygon... 21-Dec-99 15:11:02 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... Message sender: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net From: "Mike Ruskai" <retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net> On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:38:54 -0500 (CST), Trancser wrote: >>>Is there ANYTHING that OS/2 would (or does) NOTICABLY exceed Linux with?? >> >>Process/thread scheduling and DOS emulation. >> >>Holger > >I'm suprised you didnt also add the WPS in there :) > >(I still wish that OS/2 used a simular method of executing programs like >Linux does - that and dynamic disk cache ....but I guess I'll stop saying >that, since I doubt anyone would ever add such a feature to OS/2 ...sides me >:) I personally wouldn't add a dynamic disk cache, but I would add a larger one. Dynamic caches inevitably run into problems of contention, when there's lots of disk activity, and memory becomes overcommitted. Neither Win9x nor WinNT deal with this situation well at all. One of the first things a person should do in these OS's is set limits to the maximum size of the disk cache. -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: TLF (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygon... 21-Dec-99 15:28:26 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: Using LXLite on OS/2 Message sender: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net From: "Mike Ruskai" <retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net> On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 01:30:32 -0500 (CST), Trancser wrote: > >I was wondering what possible disadvantages there might be, with using lxlite >on OS/2 (to compress the entire OS and all programs installed)? > >Also, do the executables being loaded that have been lxlited need to actually >be uncompressed by the system, and would this mean that the whole program >would be loaded into swap memory immediately, as to an executable not >compressed w/ lxlite? You're emitting a significant amount of confusion here. In OS/2, there are two and a half executable formats. The first is NE, and encompasses only 16-bit executables. I believe NE stands for New Executable format (ironically enough). The second one and a half formats are both LX (Linear eXecutable), which supports both 16-bit and 32-bit programs, but is most commonly used with the latter. The first implementation of LX supports the compression of data in the executable. OS/2 2.x can handle this. Then there's a modification to the format (hence the "half") which allows for compression of executable code as well as data. Only OS/2 Warp and above support this. So, the compression of an executable is supported at the OS level. There's no additional overhead, as the kernel already knows how to uncompress the executable. On a system with a fast CPU (i.e. any Pentium or higher systems), this makes for better performance, because the process of decompression during load (and keep in mind that OS/2 doesn't have to decompress the entire executable, only those pages which are called for) is much faster than the process of reading the data from the drive. For a 7MB executable which compresses down to 3MB, this has a substantial impact on load performance (in the positive direction). Whether swapping comes into play at all depends entirely on whether or not the system is overcommitted. As is always the case. -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: TLF (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca 21-Dec-99 23:16:08 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:57:55, veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: ΩOn Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:38:54 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: Ω>>>Is there ANYTHING that OS/2 would (or does) NOTICABLY exceed Linux with?? Ω>> Ω>>Process/thread scheduling and DOS emulation. Ω>> Ω>>Holger Ω> Ω>I'm suprised you didnt also add the WPS in there :) █ ΩThe WPS is a nice concept and a lousy implementation. I don't think it's THAT bad... ;) Ω"Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at Ωdealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic Ωcommunication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Ω Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org This, on the other hand, is hilarious!:) Jack Troughton ICQ:7494149 http://jakesplace.dhs.org jack.troughton at videotron.ca jake at jakesplace.dhs.org Montr┌al PQ Canada --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cbass2112@my-deja.com 21-Dec-99 23:45:13 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: cbass2112@my-deja.com In article <slrn85utiu.fk.veit@simi.gmd.de>, veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: -- snip -- > Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language. C is a pretty > well suited language to write lousy code, and C++ is even a negative > improvement to that. With all due respect, this is true of any language, including assembler and training languages like Pascal. I've seen lousy code written in several languages; there is nothing especially magical about C in this regard, if you are willing to overlook the obvious issue of pointer arithmetic nonsense. > If you write assembler, you have to consider what you do, how you > layout structures, pass parameters, call procuedures etc. because > every conceptual flaw will shoot back at you pretty fast. However, as a software developer, I consider my time too valuable to squander it deciding where each byte of code should reside in RAM. The reason we *have* HLLs is to free us from that kind of tyranny, and allow us to concentrate on the problem at hand. > With a high level language, you write something and hope that the > compiler will optimize your nonsense. Garbage-In, Garbage-out. You are alluding to the pointer arithmetic I mentioned earlier, I hope. :) Beyond that, I take exception to the notion that my code is "nonsense." > Disk space is dirt cheap, and you aren't interested why the hell such > a lousy little DLL occupies 800KBytes on disk - you normally can't > find out at all anyway, normally. Which is probably just as well. Yes, indeed, hardware is cheap, which is another strike against assembler, especially as a general-purpose development tool. Back when assembler ruled the roost, hardware was considerably more expensive, and the programmer's time was comparatively cheap. And don't forget the portability issue -- would you have even *considered* porting XFree86 to OS/2 if it had been written in 100% assembler? Curtis Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 21-Dec-99 23:54:11 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!! From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) Lucien writes: >>> Therefore, given that your position has now been established as >>> >>> "The JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT (grammatical) >>> quantification", >> On what basis do you claim that my position has been established as >> that, Lucien? > By mutual agreement that that is your position. Where is my alleged agreement, Lucien? > Because you provided no explicit answer to the question > > "Is the JDK sentence ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification?" Irrelevant, given that the grammaticality amd coherence of the original sentence is not the issue. > (an illogical claim of irrelevancy was supplied instead), On what basis do you call my claim of irrelevancy "illogical", Lucien? I explained why your modified version of the sentence is irrelevant. You offered no counterargument to that explanation. Thus your claim of "illogic" is nothing more than mere pontification on your part. > you tacitly agreed to the conditions I set forth in my original > inquiry Ah, because you cannot identify the alleged agreement, you instead call it "tacit". I'd call it your fantasy. Of course, if you want to use "tacit" as an indication of position, then you "tacitly" agreed that the title "Andre Watts Performs Mozart" is not ambiguous to those familiar with the amount of music composed by Mozart, and that lack of ambiguity can be achieved by means other than grammar. > and accepted > > "The JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification" > > as your position. Where is my alleged acceptance, Lucien? > You may, at any time, override this assumption by supplying an > explicit (i.e. yes/no) answer to the original question. I provided an explicit answer to the *original* question long ago, Lucien. That's what you've been arguing about for the last several weeks. As for your modified question, it's irrelevant, for reasons previously noted. > Otherwise, the debate continues based on my assumption. Irrelevant, given that I provided an explicit answer to the *original* question long ago, thus no assumptions are necessary on your part. >>> explain why these two variants of the JDK sentence are grammatical, >>> coherent sentences of English: >>> >>> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality." >>> >>> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality." >> Irrelevant, given that the grammaticality amd coherence of the >> original sentence is not the issue. > Illogical response, given that we're concerned with the grammaticality > and coherence of the JDK sentence variants in this section, not the > original JDK sentence. "This section" is irrelevant, simply because it doesn't deal with the original JDK sentence, thus my response is not illogical. > Specifically, your assertion that the original JDK sentence is not > ambiguous WRT quantification (regardless of the source of the > disambiguation) predicts that one of these variants of the JDK sentence > should be impossible; And I previously noted that the second is illogical, because if all Java 1.2 functionality had been implementedm then there isn't a reason for IBM to have called it "1.1.8". > yet both are grammatical, coherent sentences of English. The second is not logical, however. > Explain why. Unnecessary, given that there is more to logical arguments using English sentences than just grammar and coherence. ===================================================================== Meanwhile, I noticed how you deleted for a sixth time yet another example of mine that demonstrates another flaw in your reasoning. I'll restore it: ] Unnecessary, because lack of ambiguity can be achieved by other means. ] For example, if you have a compact disc titled "Andre Watts Performs ] Mozart", are you going to claim that the title is ambiguous because ] "performs" could mean "some" or "all" of the music of Mozart? In this ] case, the ambiguity is resolved because Mozart composed more music ] than can fit on a compact disc. Amazing how unwilling you are to admit how lack of ambiguity can be achieved in a variety of ways, such as by using words whose definitions can make them inherently unambiguous, such as "prevent", or by the application of logic, such as why IBM uses "1.1.8" instead of "1.2", or a little knowledge, such as the amount of music written by Mozart. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IFA B-111 (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 22-Dec-99 00:05:09 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451534 From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) Lucien writes: >> Today's Bass digest: >> >> 1> Still beating your wife? >> >> Non sequitur. >> >> Hey Curtis, have you kept track of Lucien's latest antics? > Hey Curtis, have you kept track of Dave's latest antics? >> Now he's >> trying to attribute positions to me that I haven't taken. > Now he's trying to divert attention from the beating he's taking in > the other thread What alleged beating am I taking in the other thread, Lucien? That's rather ironic, coming from the person taking the beating, as evidenced by the fact that you've been falsely attributing positions to me, the fact that you've been changing your argument, and the fact that you've continued to ignore the Mozart example. > by making unsubstantiated claims The claims are all substantiated in the other thread, Lucien. > in an irrelevant exchange with you. Considering that Curtis had previously commented on our exchange, it shouldn't be irrelevant to him. >> And not too long ago he changed his own argument. > And not too long ago he lost track of his own argument. Where did I allegedly lose track of my own argument, Lucien? I'm not the one modifying sentences to restrict attention to only the grammatical aspects. You're the one doing that. >> Now it's not that the sentence is ambiguous, but rather that it is >> "grammatically" ambiguous. > Now it's the same ambiguity at issue as always. Incorrect, given that the issue was never restricted to the grammatical aspect. >> And have you noticed how he's ignored the Mozart example five times >> so far? > And have you noticed his continued reliance on diversionary > irrelevancies and invective? What alleged "diversionary irrelevancies", Lucien? An example that proves you wrong is hardly diversionary or irrelevant. And where is the alleged invective in the Mozart example, Lucien? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IFA B-111 (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@sea.monterey.edu 21-Dec-99 16:23:28 To: All 21-Dec-99 21:33:20 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: josco <josco@sea.monterey.edu> On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Christian Gustafson wrote: > Microsoft has an excellent package for getting up to speed on Active Directory > and Windows2000: > http://www.microsoft.com/directaccess/training/sales/hotkit/win2000.asp > > For $129, you get not-for-resale copies of 2000 Workstation, Server, and > Advanced Server when they ship, an extensive training kit, and a MS T-shirt. > > A great deal, from a company that still sells PC OSes. The T-shirts are boys sizes. You see, like Windows2000, MS's t-shirts don't scale. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: CSUnet (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: huffd@nls.net 22-Dec-99 01:25:15 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: "David D. Huff Jr." <huffd@nls.net> I am not. >ad removed Self respect intact. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org 21-Dec-99 17:22:19 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: "Chad Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message news:slrn85vkv0.mtv.jedi@localhost.localdomain... > On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:44:19 -0800, Chad Mulligan <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: > > > ><jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message > >news:slrn85tao9.1q8.jedi@localhost.localdomain... > >> On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:57:25 -0800, Chad Mulligan > ><cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: > >> > > ><TRIMMED> > > > >> > >> > > >> >Wrongo boyo. The net itself is just as redundant and fault tolerant as it > >> >always was. If the dial up points of presence you use aren't as reliable > >as > >> > >> In that case, it's never lived up to it's hype. > >> > >> >always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. > >> > >> Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced > >> to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved > >> with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust > >> wrt personal availability? > >> > > > >Well the end users that are part of my customer base don't have these > >difficulties. We actually take steps to anticipate their problems before > >they occur. > > That's fine for your little infintesimal corner of the net > but pretty much meaningless for the rest of it. Actually we aren't an infinitesimal corner of the net, we are part of the backbone. -- Armageddon means never having to say you're sorry. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Hipcrime Vocabulary Organization (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 21-Dec-99 20:27:23 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451534 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Dave Tholen got confused and responded with the following in the wrong thread: > > Today's Amodeo digest: > > 1> What Dave allegedly enjoys is irrelevant. > > Very good, Marty. > > 1> Dave never said that. > > Very good, Marty. As pleased as I am to have met with your approval, your recognition is quite irrelevant. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 21-Dec-99 20:30:24 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451534 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Dave Tholen wrote: > > Today's Bass digest: > > 1> Still beating your wife? > > Non sequitur. > > Hey Curtis, have you kept track of Lucien's latest antics? Now he's > trying to attribute positions to me that I haven't taken. And not too > long ago he changed his own argument. Now it's not that the sentence > is ambiguous, but rather that it "grammatically" ambiguous. And have > you noticed how he's ignored the Mozart example five times so far? How ironic, considering the non sequitur nature of the above paragraph. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 21-Dec-99 20:45:05 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Trancser wrote: > > >IBM has weeded out much of the old 16 bit code, but there is still some in > >there. The reason 16 bit code still exists in OS/2 is that the stuff left is > >highly optimized assebly code. For the most part there is no advantage to > >going to 32 bit code and some portions may actually take a performance hit > >going to 32 bit. And to answere the last question, of course they would > >work, the question is what is the gain by going to 32 bit? > > > > Wouldnt there be a speed difference? any at all? Depends on what the code in question is doing. If it is IO bound code, like those communicating with a hard disk drive, it makes very little difference. If it is code for display drivers or something which needs to manipulate large amounts of data as quickly as possible it can give a nearly 2x performance boost. - Marty --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: rdhughes@home.com 21-Dec-99 20:17:00 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Rob Hughes <rdhughes@home.com> The funniest thing is that's RC2 which isn't even available anymore since w2k went RTM. What a putz... Could that be why he's known as "goofy"? On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:58:53 -0600, "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> wrote: :Microsoft has an excellent package for getting up to speed on Active Directory :and Windows2000: :http://www.microsoft.com/directaccess/training/sales/hotkit/win2000.asp : :For $129, you get not-for-resale copies of 2000 Workstation, Server, and :Advanced Server when they ship, an extensive training kit, and a MS T-shirt. : :A great deal, from a company that still sells PC OSes. Rob "Narphous" Hughes Co 404th KamiKali TFW Western Division F4 IP -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==----- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 73,000+ UN (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: andrew@netneurotic.de 22-Dec-99 03:49:00 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote: > On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 01:00:47, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) > wrote: > > Still, this is not what "free" means in regard to software like Minix > > and Linux. > > > The original poster used the phrase "a freely available OS". From his > choice of words I assumed he was referring to the price. Minix did > cost money when I first heard of it, although I didn't know some could > get it for nothing. > > I do agree with you that both Linux and Minix are "free", in the sense > that their source is available to all. It's a good thing too, in case > you wondered. <G> Minix is considered "semi-free" I believe, but this is being nitpicking. :-) > > > You are correct about Tanenbaum's goal for Minix. I think it is freely > > > downloadable nowadays, but I'm not sure if the source is available > > > (the "other" meaning of "free"). > > > > Of course the source is available, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to > > study it, would it? > > > It sounds logical, now that you say it. I never took the step of > actually procuring Minix (at the time, Windows 3.x provided better > solutions for my business needs; later that became OS/2 and only > recently have I started glancing at Linux). > > Of course, Microsoft assumes that one can become a MSCE without ever > glancing at the source of their products, so at least some people are > convinced one can study stuff without access to sources. I'ts amazing, isn't it? :-) I'm going to study Minix next year at around this time at my university (that is if I don't work during the time instead). I'm looking forward to it. Actually, I've heard that Minix 2.0 (16 bit) can be run in an OS/2 VMB. I'll try out soon. (I got a CD, but it didn't work because of some data error during dd'ing the thingy.) -- Fan of Woody Allen User of MacOS, BeOS, LinuxPPC Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: christian.g@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 21:17:24 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> "Rob Hughes" <rdhughes@home.com> wrote in message news:53d06scdc910gvj0ha8ier5ut2fn2mpimq@4ax.com... > The funniest thing is that's RC2 which isn't even available anymore > since w2k went RTM. What a putz... Could that be why he's known as > "goofy"? No, Rob, they send you RC2 now, and full versions of all three products when they ship, presumably next month. Another example of great developer support from Microsoft. -- :::::===== Christian Gustafson :::::===== Marina City, Chicago, Illinois ========== ========== --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu 21-Dec-99 22:06:10 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451534 From: tholenbot <tholenbot@x3066.resnet.cornell.edu> In article <83p4jv$5mu$1@news.hawaii.edu>, Dave "Bennett" Tholen (tholenantispam@hawaii.edu) wrote: > Lucien writes: > > >> Today's Bass digest: > >> > >> 1> Still beating your wife? > >> > >> Non sequitur. > >> > >> Hey Curtis, have you kept track of Lucien's latest antics? > > > Hey Curtis, have you kept track of Dave's latest antics? Note: no logical response. > >> Now he's > >> trying to attribute positions to me that I haven't taken. > > > Now he's trying to divert attention from the beating he's taking in > > the other thread > > What alleged beating am I taking in the other thread, Lucien? Try using your brain for once, Dave. Sheesh. > That's > rather ironic, coming from the person taking the beating, as evidenced > by the fact that you've been falsely attributing positions to me, the > fact that you've been changing your argument, and the fact that you've > continued to ignore the Mozart example. What alleged "Mozart", Dave? > > by making unsubstantiated claims > > The claims are all substantiated in the other thread, Lucien. Typical erroneous and unsubstantiated claim. > > in an irrelevant exchange with you. > > Considering that Curtis had previously commented on our exchange, Irrelevant. > it > shouldn't be irrelevant to him. On what basis do you make this claim? > >> And not too long ago he changed his own argument. > > > And not too long ago he lost track of his own argument. > > Where did I allegedly lose track of my own argument, Lucien? I'm not > the one modifying sentences to restrict attention to only the > grammatical aspects. You're the one doing that. See above. > Incorrect, given that the issue was never restricted to the grammatical > aspect. The restrictions are not relevant, Dave. What you can prove is relevant. > > And have you noticed his continued reliance on diversionary > > irrelevancies and invective? > > What alleged "diversionary irrelevancies", Lucien? How ironic. > An example that > proves you wrong is hardly diversionary or irrelevant. Irrelevant, given that you have not shown the existence of any such examples. > And where is > the alleged invective in the Mozart example, Lucien? What alleged "Mozart", Dave? -- I do not 'approve' phrases. -Dave Tholen --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IFA BS-1 (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: letoured@nospam.net 21-Dec-99 22:07:10 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: letoured@nospam.net >> >IBM has weeded out much of the old 16 bit code, but there is still some in >> >there. The reason 16 bit code still exists in OS/2 is that the stuff left is >> >highly optimized assebly code. For the most part there is no advantage to >> >going to 32 bit code and some portions may actually take a performance hit >> >going to 32 bit. And to answere the last question, of course they would >> >work, the question is what is the gain by going to 32 bit? >> Wouldnt there be a speed difference? any at all? Side Note: A few years ago I was beta testing Xerox's wonder new 32bit Win95 version of Textbridge (OCR program). For the fun of it I installed the 16bit Win31 version under Win-OS2 and ran tests on both versions. Xeron was not happy when I reported that the Win 3.1 version was 25% faster under OS2 then the W95 was under WinCrap. _____________ Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net> --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: christian.g@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 21:29:17 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> "josco" <josco@sea.monterey.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.SGI.3.93.991221162221.6651A-100000@sea.monterey.edu... > On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Christian Gustafson wrote: > > > Microsoft has an excellent package for getting up to speed on Active Directory > > and Windows2000: > > http://www.microsoft.com/directaccess/training/sales/hotkit/win2000.asp > > > > For $129, you get not-for-resale copies of 2000 Workstation, Server, and > > Advanced Server when they ship, an extensive training kit, and a MS T-shirt. > > > > A great deal, from a company that still sells PC OSes. > > The T-shirts are boys sizes. You see, like Windows2000, MS's t-shirts > don't scale. LOL, good one, Joseph. We'll see, we're building a cluster on it, and I'll let you know how it goes. Personally, I can't wait to install the full Win2K on my home machine. Microsoft '00 has fierce competitors, the current enterprise players, and Microsoft '96-'99. The product *has* to be good, to win both the new installations and the upgrades. Otherwise, they're toast, and they know it. I hope it is as good an upgrade as SQL Server 7 was to 6.5, quite an achievement. I first learned about the free Solaris OS kits here in COOA, so I thought it appropriate to post the link to the MS offer. An excellent value and example of MS's developer support, some of you may order it simply to evaluate the full product, kick the tires, knock it around a bit. Best-tool-for-the-job and all that, right? -- :::::===== Christian Gustafson :::::===== Marina City, Chicago, Illinois ========== ========== --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: fake@forgitaboutit.com 22-Dec-99 04:04:04 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> In article <53d06scdc910gvj0ha8ier5ut2fn2mpimq@4ax.com>, rdhughes@home.com says... >The funniest thing is that's RC2 which isn't even available anymore >since w2k went RTM. What a putz... Could that be why he's known as >"goofy"? > >On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:58:53 -0600, "Christian Gustafson" ><christian.g@ibm.net> wrote: > >:Microsoft has an excellent package for getting up to speed on Active Directory >:and Windows2000: >:http://www.microsoft.com/directaccess/training/sales/hotkit/win2000.asp >: >:For $129, you get not-for-resale copies of 2000 Workstation, Server, and >:Advanced Server when they ship, an extensive training kit, and a MS T-shirt. >: >:A great deal, from a company that still sells PC OSes. > >Rob "Narphous" Hughes >Co 404th KamiKali TFW Western Division >F4 IP > > > -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! >------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==----- > Guess what? OS/2 Warp Beta 2 isn't available either. Nor is Warp 4 beta? Now that's goofy! -- --------------------------------------- David H. McCoy dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com --------------------------------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: OminorTech (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: christian.g@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 22:21:23 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> "David H. McCoy" <fake@forgitaboutit.com> wrote in message news:MPG.12ca1c2b4067cd2e989693@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com... > > Guess what? OS/2 Warp Beta 2 isn't available either. Nor is Warp 4 beta? Now > that's goofy! How 'bout that Warp 5 client beta? cg > --------------------------------------- > David H. McCoy > dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com > --------------------------------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: newyear@KILL_SPAMdeepchaos.com 22-Dec-99 04:22:12 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: test From: newyear@KILL_SPAMdeepchaos.com (newyear) test ------ Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net Complaints to news@netfront.net --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Netfront http://www.netfront.net/ (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: sbm@direct.ca 19-Dec-99 19:20:08 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: Who runs this country? From: sbm@direct.ca (Siobhan Medeiros) "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote: >Kenn Sunley wrote: > >> Go ahead bust some unions - and while you're at it - get rid of medicare, >... > >Sure! > >> old age pensions, ... > >Absolutely! > >> ... all pensions for that matter, > >People should be responsible for their own pensions. If the company they >work for wants to set up a group pension plan, that's fine too. Government >has no responsibility in the matter. > Why not just put everyone over 65 to death? >> universal school educations ... > >Without a doubt! Now this is truly scary. > >> all labour codes - including health and safety... > >Don't work for companies that don't keep responsible health and safety >codes. You don't need a union to uphold that. If nobody works for such a >company, they can't produce; and therefore they disappear. > >... or, at least, only those willing to work in those conditions would work >there, and the company wouldn't produce _good_ stuff, and they'd disappear. > Then by your logic, those third-world shoe factories should be long gone by now. >> ... minimum wage standards... > >Sure! Minimum wage kills jobs. > The type of job which can't pay minimum wage isn't worth having around. >> human rights... > >Don't be stupid. > >The only human rights are (a) the right to life, (b) the right to liberty, >and (c) the right to own and enjoy property. I would have added (d) the right to freedom of speech (e) the right of religous expression (f) the right to vote in a democratic election (g) the right to legal representation in a trial, etc., etc.... > >Any other "right" is a fictitious construct. > >> ... environmental laws... > >Sure! If a company isn't being environmentally responsible, then people >won't do business with them. I notice Exxon is still in business. > >> just cause dismissals ... > >Unions have nothing to do with that; it's a violation of one's right to >liberty because the company, by not dismissing with just cause, is >initiating force against the person they're canning. > It's interesting to see yet another interesting definition of "initiation of force". Just goes to show you that you can define it to mean anything you want it to. >> and thousands of other good laws and societal standards that unions have >> fought for in this country. > >There aren't any. > >> It is strange, that if not for the unions you hate so much - you probably >> wouldn't even have the public voice with which to decry their existence. > >That's pure, unadulterated crap. The three rights I listed above have >always existed and will always exist. Unions had nothing to do with them. Guess again. Your rights only exist so long as there is a strong government to protect them. Otherwise you can scream at the top of your lungs about your right to life all the while they're dragging you out to the firing squad. >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >What have YOU done to bust a union today? >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Work better: Work union-free. > >Steven C. Britton >Calgary > >www.cadvision.com/sbritton > > > --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: sbritton@cadvision.com 21-Dec-99 22:05:08 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: Who runs this country? From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> Siobhan Medeiros wrote: > > > >People should be responsible for their own pensions. If the company they > >work for wants to set up a group pension plan, that's fine too. Government > >has no responsibility in the matter. > > Why not just put everyone over 65 to death? The world doesn't owe anyone a living. That includes people over 65 years of age. It is your own responsibility to make sure you can live after retirement. > >> universal school educations ... > > > >Without a doubt! > > Now this is truly scary. Not at all: private education is far better for people than public. The competition between schools keeps it that way. > >> all labour codes - including health and safety... > > > >Don't work for companies that don't keep responsible health and safety > >codes. You don't need a union to uphold that. If nobody works for such a > >company, they can't produce; and therefore they disappear. > > > >... or, at least, only those willing to work in those conditions would work > >there, and the company wouldn't produce _good_ stuff, and they'd disappear. > > > Then by your logic, those third-world shoe factories should be long gone by > now. Those "third-world shoe factories" of which you speak are probably far safer and healthy than the other businesses that exist in those countries. > >> ... minimum wage standards... > > > >Sure! Minimum wage kills jobs. > > > > The type of job which can't pay minimum wage isn't worth having around. People should be paid what they're worth. > >> human rights... > > > >Don't be stupid. > > > >The only human rights are (a) the right to life, (b) the right to liberty, > >and (c) the right to own and enjoy property. > > I would have added (d) the right to freedom of speech That's liberty. > (e) the right of religous expression Liberty... > (f) the right to vote in a democratic election Liberty... > (g) the right to legal representation in a trial, etc., etc.... Liberty. You see, liberty encompasses all of the fictitious constructs you've postulated in (d),(e),(f), and (g). They're ALL "liberty". > >Sure! If a company isn't being environmentally responsible, then people > >won't do business with them. > > I notice Exxon is still in business. They took a huge hit, and they also took a huge responsibility in repairing the damage. > >> just cause dismissals ... > > > >Unions have nothing to do with that; it's a violation of one's right to > >liberty because the company, by not dismissing with just cause, is > >initiating force against the person they're canning. > > It's interesting to see yet another interesting definition of "initiation > of force". Just goes to show you that you can define it to mean anything > you want it to. Not at all: "Initiation of force" simply boils down to the violation of another's fundamental rights of liberty, life, or property. > >That's pure, unadulterated crap. The three rights I listed above have > >always existed and will always exist. Unions had nothing to do with them. > > Guess again. Your rights only exist so long as there is a strong > government to protect them. Otherwise you can scream at the top of your > lungs about your right to life all the while they're dragging you out to > the firing squad. Tyrannical governments exist all over the place, and they violate one's rights all the time. That doesn't remove that right from the person. People are free (have liberty) by definition. They have the right to property by definition, and they have the right to life by definition. Just because a tyrannical government may violate those rights doesn't mean that those rights cease to exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- What have YOU done to bust a union today? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Work better: Work union-free. Steven C. Britton Calgary www.cadvision.com/sbritton --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: CADVision Development Corporation (http://www.cad (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 22-Dec-99 00:46:05 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> "David H. McCoy" wrote: > > Guess what? OS/2 Warp Beta 2 isn't available either. Nor is Warp 4 beta? Now > that's goofy! Yes it is. The just called it by a different name. "GA" is the term they used I believe. ;-) - Marty --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 23:51:00 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: Using LXLite on OS/2 From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> > >You're emitting a significant amount of confusion here. > >In OS/2, there are two and a half executable formats. The first is NE, >and encompasses only 16-bit executables. I believe NE stands for New >Executable format (ironically enough). > >The second one and a half formats are both LX (Linear eXecutable), which >supports both 16-bit and 32-bit programs, but is most commonly used with >the latter. The first implementation of LX supports the compression of >data in the executable. OS/2 2.x can handle this. Then there's a >modification to the format (hence the "half") which allows for compression >of executable code as well as data. Only OS/2 Warp and above support >this. > >So, the compression of an executable is supported at the OS level. >There's no additional overhead, as the kernel already knows how to >uncompress the executable. On a system with a fast CPU (i.e. any Pentium >or higher systems), this makes for better performance, because the process >of decompression during load (and keep in mind that OS/2 doesn't have to >decompress the entire executable, only those pages which are called for) >is much faster than the process of reading the data from the drive. > >For a 7MB executable which compresses down to 3MB, this has a substantial >impact on load performance (in the positive direction). > >Whether swapping comes into play at all depends entirely on whether or not >the system is overcommitted. As is always the case. > So its loading the portions of the program (or dynamic link librariy) directly into swap file, decompress it there, and finally display its gui on the desktop? And if so, would that mean that even if there is actual free physcial memory, the program (the portion of it requested by the OS) is still loaded directly into swap file? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: fake@forgitaboutit.com 22-Dec-99 05:53:17 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> In article <386065A3.351C0A4E@stny.rr.com>, mamodeo@stny.rr.com says... >"David H. McCoy" wrote: >> >> Guess what? OS/2 Warp Beta 2 isn't available either. Nor is Warp 4 beta? Now >> that's goofy! > >Yes it is. The just called it by a different name. "GA" is the term they >used I believe. ;-) > >- Marty > That would explain why certain "issues" weren't fixed. They were still betas! <g> -- --------------------------------------- David H. McCoy dmccoy@EXTRACT_THIS_mnsinc.com --------------------------------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: OminorTech (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: sbm@direct.ca 19-Dec-99 20:25:11 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: Who runs this country? From: sbm@direct.ca (Siobhan Medeiros) "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> wrote: >Tim Rosnau wrote: > >> "Steven C. Britton" wrote: >> > >> > Only a fascist would try to harm another because they have a different >> > opinion. >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- >> > What have YOU done to bust a union today? >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > >> This is really intelligent coming from a guy who is in favor of >> union busting. > >Yes. > >I advocate union busting. That does not mean I advocate harm to individual >union members. It means that I advocate the decertification and breaking up >of unions. > >For too long, union goons and their rent-a-mob tactics of threats and >intimidation have harmed the owners of reputable corporations, and it is >time for this crap to stop. > Employers are far more likely to use rent-a-mobs than unions. Check out what happened at Echlin's plant in Mexico City sometime when the UAW tried organizing the workers there. In other third-world countries, union organizers tend to...disappear. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Internet Direct - http://www.mydirect.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 22-Dec-99 01:02:11 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: Using LXLite on OS/2 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Trancser wrote: > > > > >You're emitting a significant amount of confusion here. > > > >In OS/2, there are two and a half executable formats. The first is NE, > >and encompasses only 16-bit executables. I believe NE stands for New > >Executable format (ironically enough). > > > >The second one and a half formats are both LX (Linear eXecutable), which > >supports both 16-bit and 32-bit programs, but is most commonly used with > >the latter. The first implementation of LX supports the compression of > >data in the executable. OS/2 2.x can handle this. Then there's a > >modification to the format (hence the "half") which allows for compression > >of executable code as well as data. Only OS/2 Warp and above support > >this. > > > >So, the compression of an executable is supported at the OS level. > >There's no additional overhead, as the kernel already knows how to > >uncompress the executable. On a system with a fast CPU (i.e. any Pentium > >or higher systems), this makes for better performance, because the process > >of decompression during load (and keep in mind that OS/2 doesn't have to > >decompress the entire executable, only those pages which are called for) > >is much faster than the process of reading the data from the drive. > > > >For a 7MB executable which compresses down to 3MB, this has a substantial > >impact on load performance (in the positive direction). > > > >Whether swapping comes into play at all depends entirely on whether or not > >the system is overcommitted. As is always the case. > > > > So its loading the portions of the program (or dynamic link librariy) > directly into swap file, decompress it there, and finally display its gui on > the desktop? You missed his second to last statement: "Whether swapping comes into play at all depends entirely on whether or not the system is overcommitted." It's going to load it and expand it in memory if at all possible. If not, then it and or some other parts of other programs will wind up in the swapper. Most likely the program you just loaded won't be swapped out, but instead an older, less recently touched memory page will be evicted. Empirically, OS/2 does seem to have a threshold of free memory that it tries to maintain, and it employs the swap file while there is still some physical RAM free. However, it is not going to swap out a piece of memory that needs to be accessed immediately if it can help it at all. Otherwise, it would just be spinning its wheels. - Marty --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 21-Dec-99 18:23:05 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> On 21 Dec 1999 12:57:55 GMT, Holger Veit wrote: >On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:38:54 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: >>>>Is there ANYTHING that OS/2 would (or does) NOTICABLY exceed Linux with?? >>> >>>Process/thread scheduling and DOS emulation. >>> >>>Holger >> >>I'm suprised you didnt also add the WPS in there :) > >The WPS is a nice concept and a lousy implementation. > Are you refering to code bloat? I guess this is true, since theres a lot of wps replacement shell's out there (so far though none that appear to have 100% compatability with all the fucntions of the OS like printing and icon's among other stuff probably) --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: EarthLink Network, Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: hbae@primenet.com.REMOVE 22-Dec-99 06:05:25 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: ipt? From: Hansang Bae <hbae@primenet.com.REMOVE> Jim Moseby <jim.moseby@texfiblends.com> writes: >If you have javascript enabled for mail and newsgroups, they can send a >message that will open your browser and take you to wherever they want >you to go. In Netscape, click Edit/Preferences/Advanced and uncheck >'Enable Javascript for mail and news...'. Or you can use a command line newsreader like nn! I've tried Agent, Outlook, NetScape, velocity <?> and none of them can provide what nn provides. SPEED and absolute control. *********** Remove the REMOVE if emailing me directly ************** Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead. ******************************************************************** Hansang Bae Director of Network Operations, Eastern Region hbae@richeysystems.com Reg. Office: (718) 352-9021 Specializing in Network Design/Troubleshooting and Protocol Analysis ******************************************************************** --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 22-Dec-99 01:17:20 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Trancser wrote: > > On 21 Dec 1999 12:57:55 GMT, Holger Veit wrote: > > >On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:38:54 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: > >>>>Is there ANYTHING that OS/2 would (or does) NOTICABLY exceed Linux with?? > >>> > >>>Process/thread scheduling and DOS emulation. > >>> > >>>Holger > >> > >>I'm suprised you didnt also add the WPS in there :) > > > >The WPS is a nice concept and a lousy implementation. > > > > Are you refering to code bloat? Likely he is not. He's probably referring to the poor error tolerance of the WPS. When a WPS spawned action goes sour, it tends to take the whole WPS down with it. That's a poor design. It's not terribly bloated as GUIs go (especially in terms of "bang for the buck"). - Marty --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 22-Dec-99 00:38:13 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> > >It is a different paging strategy between Linux and OS/2. It seems to >be a brain virus injected by DOS that people still believe in the >"how much memory is free" myth. A reasonable OS should use any available >resource as efficiently as possible. It is nonsense *not* to use the >available memory. If you just drive between home and workplace, you >basically need one road, not all the other highways and roads all over >the country, and taking into acocunt that there are no other people >needing roads for going to work like you, you should have plenty of free >space you won't ever need? Wrong, there is a lot of stuff going on which >doesn't have anything to do with just people commuting, such as transports >to fill your supermarket with goods, transports which carry things to plants >for producing consumer goods, etc. Same with an OS. > >Unix uses a greedy paging strategy of "processes take what they can acquire". >This results in extreme performance degradation when the system is under >load. OS/2, coming from server experiences, cannot be brought to the >ground that easily, it pages in from swap space which requires a fast >swap disk to be efficient (available in decent servers), but will behave >in a balanced way under load. Actually, even Warp-non-server is better >suited as a server OS than as a client system. The point is here that >most people don't use OS/2 in the way it was designed for. > I dont doubt that Unix/Linux's pageing stategies do differ from OS/2's. But, Linux's is faster (at least it is for me - and I'm using Stampede, which seems to be the LEAST of the known flavors) I cant say I know why either :), but what I DONT under -stand, is that OS/2 hasnt adopted it. I mean, I hear that there have been some major changes to OS/2's kernel, as far as memory managment, but what's supposed to be better actually causes more disk activity and swapping to occur. I heard from a friend that's used OS/2 from v2.0 on up, and has stated that v2.0 and (I'm pretty sure) v2.1 seem to use the swap file more "reasonably" (as in it didnt use it primarily) but once 2.99 came along, everything was different. Now one cant even boot OS/2 w/o using a swap file if they have less than 64megs (possibly more) of memory (I know - I only have 40megs :). All I'm saying, is that OS/2 REALLY likes to use the swap file BUT it is really reliable and stable nontheless (I very rarely get a trap or crash, except if I've got virtually no space on the boot drive, or dont have enough room for swapper growth and the program that I'm trying to run is swap-heavy ... some -thing that puzzles me as well). But I guess the reason OS/2 still needs a pretty nice system to run efficiantly is because possibly of all the backward compatability that remains in the code. This can have plenty of advantages for many people, concidering the fact that that probably the drivers that are available for their h/w might be from an older version of OS/2. But than again maybe not - you are able to compile Linux w/ compatability to handle older inefficiant A.OUT (pretty sure thats it?) binary types, as well the more used ELF format. But Linux's memory managment still is VERY efficiant even with compatability. I would just like to be able to see swapping speed in OS/2 simular to Linux's, or at least were you DONT NEED to have an insanely fast (and expensive?) harddrive for being able to swap at a reasonable speed (news readers can REALLY jack up ones swap file in EITHER linux or os2, but linux just seems to be able to empty out from the swap file what whatever program's data that was created your using. OS/2 takes a li'l while longer - and with plenty of disk activity). I've said this before, but I really do like OS/2, and really would LOVE to see that type of performance, on a poor mans system! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 22:51:13 To: All 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> Christian Gustafson wrote: > "David H. McCoy" <fake@forgitaboutit.com> wrote in message news:MPG.12ca1c2b4067cd2e989693@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com... > > > > Guess what? OS/2 Warp Beta 2 isn't available either. Nor is Warp 4 beta? Now > > that's goofy! > > How 'bout that Warp 5 client beta? How about Warp V 4.0 Release 9.035. How about getting over OS/2 and trying to help decipher MS's plans for those NOT interested in buying 256MB Pentium IIIs. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 21-Dec-99 23:12:11 To: christian.g@ibm.net 22-Dec-99 03:27:00 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 To: Christian Gustafson <christian.g@ibm.net> From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> Christian Gustafson wrote: > "josco" <josco@sea.monterey.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.SGI.3.93.991221162221.6651A-100000@sea.monterey.edu... > > On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, Christian Gustafson wrote: > > > > > Microsoft has an excellent package for getting up to speed on Active Directory > > > and Windows2000: > > > http://www.microsoft.com/directaccess/training/sales/hotkit/win2000.asp > > > > > > For $129, you get not-for-resale copies of 2000 Workstation, Server, and > > > Advanced Server when they ship, an extensive training kit, and a MS T-shirt. > > > > > > A great deal, from a company that still sells PC OSes. > > > > The T-shirts are boys sizes. You see, like Windows2000, MS's t-shirts > > don't scale. > > LOL, good one, Joseph. We'll see, we're building a cluster on it, and I'll let you > know how it goes. Personally, I can't wait to install the full Win2K on my home > machine. Personally, I can't wait until people try to install W2K on home systems. I can't see a better way to contrast the PC against the alternatives. As for clusters - it can be done with NT and it will be done with NT - that's MS's idea of compute scaling. It runs smack into LINUX and FreeBSD (25% of the PC server market). Clusters isn't what W2K was designed to achieve - it's something NT 4.0 was capable of doing. > Microsoft '00 has fierce competitors, the current enterprise players, and > Microsoft '96-'99. The product *has* to be good, to win both the new installations > and the upgrades. Otherwise, they're toast, and they know it. I hope it is as good > an upgrade as SQL Server 7 was to 6.5, quite an achievement. Really? Why not compare 7.0 to the competition, not a weak prior release from MS? MS SQL has been an under achiever -- it's locked to running on X86 hardware. An accomplishment in terms of where MS has been but not a leading product. The W2K product has to be good but that's not a reason to say it is good. MS put off too many technology upgrades and rolled them into a major release. MS shops will test and deploy. The real killer is the complexity of upgrades - like a new OS - and the excessive hardware needed. IMHO MS has put a lot of effort into reliability. It will come at the expense of CPU cycles and RAM in some mix of additional overhead. In short, the price performance will decrease on the server and that's bad. Whether this means OS/2, LINUX and FreeBSD are more competitive to MS customers is not clear to me. OS/2 is customizable by IBM. LINUX and FreebSD are more profitable alternatives to resellers. The tide runs against MS. They cannot afford to low ball W2K and maintain growth. > I first learned about the free Solaris OS kits here in COOA, so I thought it > appropriate to post the link to the MS offer. An excellent value and example > of MS's developer support, some of you may order it simply to evaluate the > full product, kick the tires, knock it around a bit. Best-tool-for-the-job and > all that, right? Best-tool-for-the-jobs don't come with free T-Shirt offers. You have to ask yourself why consumer gimmicks are being used to sell enterprise class products -- oh I think I understand MS's meaning for enterprise class. Maybe we'll see a CNET ad with a MS T-SHIRT? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygon... 22-Dec-99 02:29:21 To: All 22-Dec-99 05:19:29 Subj: Re: Using LXLite on OS/2 Message sender: retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net From: "Mike Ruskai" <retsiemynnaht@spammoc.beoohaygone.net> On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:51:01 -0500 (CST), Trancser wrote: >> >>You're emitting a significant amount of confusion here. >> >>In OS/2, there are two and a half executable formats. The first is NE, >>and encompasses only 16-bit executables. I believe NE stands for New >>Executable format (ironically enough). >> >>The second one and a half formats are both LX (Linear eXecutable), which >>supports both 16-bit and 32-bit programs, but is most commonly used with >>the latter. The first implementation of LX supports the compression of >>data in the executable. OS/2 2.x can handle this. Then there's a >>modification to the format (hence the "half") which allows for compression >>of executable code as well as data. Only OS/2 Warp and above support >>this. >> >>So, the compression of an executable is supported at the OS level. >>There's no additional overhead, as the kernel already knows how to >>uncompress the executable. On a system with a fast CPU (i.e. any Pentium >>or higher systems), this makes for better performance, because the process >>of decompression during load (and keep in mind that OS/2 doesn't have to >>decompress the entire executable, only those pages which are called for) >>is much faster than the process of reading the data from the drive. >> >>For a 7MB executable which compresses down to 3MB, this has a substantial >>impact on load performance (in the positive direction). >> >>Whether swapping comes into play at all depends entirely on whether or not >>the system is overcommitted. As is always the case. >> >So its loading the portions of the program (or dynamic link librariy) >directly into swap file, decompress it there, and finally display its gui on >the desktop? And if so, would that mean that even if there is actual free >physcial memory, the program (the portion of it requested by the OS) is still >loaded directly into swap file? Where are you getting this swap file nonsense? No action in OS/2 will do anything directly in the swap file. The nature of Intel processing requires code and data to be in physical memory. When OS/2 swaps, it copies code and/or data from the least recently used process to the swap file, and copies code and/or data for the currently active process from the swap file into the memory just vacated, so that the process can actually execute. Each time a process attempts to access an address range that isn't in memory, the processor throws an exception (13, or 0Dh). OS/2 always tries to handle this exception first, so it can move pages from the swap file to memory, if they exist. This is how swapping functions. If the address range in question doesn't point to swapped memory, OS/2 passes the exception on to the application, if it has an exception handler registered. This allows the application to catch its own error, and act accordingly. If the app doesn't have its own exception handler registered, OS/2 takes control once again, and you get a SYS3175, ending the application. If the code in question is running in ring 0, the nature of Intel processing prevents OS/2 from actually handling the error, and you get an internal processing error, TRAP 000D. The process of decompressing all or part of an executable for the purposes of loading it into memory has nothing to do with swapping outside of the context where there is no available physical memory, and OS/2 must page to/from the swapper to make room. -- - Mike Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: TLF (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com 22-Dec-99 03:06:16 To: All 22-Dec-99 05:19:29 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> On <38604207_1@news3.prserv.net>, on 12/21/99 at 09:29 PM, "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> said: > I first learned about the free Solaris OS kits here in COOA, so I > thought it appropriate to post the link to the MS offer. An excellent You were fucking wrong you rude bastard. > value and example of MS's developer support, some of you may order it > simply to evaluate the full product, kick the tires, knock it around a > bit. Best-tool-for-the-job and all that, right? The only way MicroSoft would be of any value would be if they PAID ME to run their crap software and operating system and its tasksharing menu interface. There is NOT ONE STINKING JOB THAT MICROSOFT SOFTWARE IS THE BEST AT. NOT A DAMNED ONE. MS SOFTWARE IS BUGGY, SLOW, BLOATED, UNRELIABLE, AND WORTHLESS. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12 MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67 Aut Pax Aut Bellum ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: osbo082@ibm.net 22-Dec-99 09:05:09 To: All 22-Dec-99 05:19:29 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 19:29:00, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: |On 21 Dec 1999 06:29:28 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: |>On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:19:56, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: |> |>|>always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. |>| |>| Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced |>| to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved |>| with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust |>| wrt personal availability? |> |>Actually, I think he is recommending that if and only if the END USERS |>in your organization are without any professional support. | | A 'new ISP' won't do. You have to basically 'be your own ISP'. | That makes the situation more complicated and increases overhead. | It's also a level of reliability you wouldn't tolerate for your | other criticial network (phone). Its is completely clear you have never tried the services that ibm recently sold to AT&T. My reliability calculations is that this net over the past 4 years has had a 99.99% reliability/availability in the 4 years I have used the service. This level of reliability was something on the order of 200 times the reliability of the local NT network, I experienced, that we used at my previous place of employment. Don't know where you have been looking but it is obviously in the wrong places. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net 22-Dec-99 09:25:08 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:07 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:49:00, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) wrote: > Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote: > > > On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 01:00:47, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) > > wrote: > > > Still, this is not what "free" means in regard to software like Minix > > > and Linux. > > > > > The original poster used the phrase "a freely available OS". From his > > choice of words I assumed he was referring to the price. Minix did > > cost money when I first heard of it, although I didn't know some could > > get it for nothing. > > > > I do agree with you that both Linux and Minix are "free", in the sense > > that their source is available to all. It's a good thing too, in case > > you wondered. <G> > > Minix is considered "semi-free" I believe, but this is being nitpicking. > :-) > .. which is considered a mortal sin in this NG <VBG> > > > > You are correct about Tanenbaum's goal for Minix. I think it is freely > > > > downloadable nowadays, but I'm not sure if the source is available > > > > (the "other" meaning of "free"). > > > > > > Of course the source is available, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to > > > study it, would it? > > > > > It sounds logical, now that you say it. I never took the step of > > actually procuring Minix (at the time, Windows 3.x provided better > > solutions for my business needs; later that became OS/2 and only > > recently have I started glancing at Linux). > > > > Of course, Microsoft assumes that one can become a MSCE without ever > > glancing at the source of their products, so at least some people are > > convinced one can study stuff without access to sources. > > I'ts amazing, isn't it? :-) I'm going to study Minix next year at around > this time at my university (that is if I don't work during the time > instead). I'm looking forward to it. Actually, I've heard that Minix 2.0 > (16 bit) can be run in an OS/2 VMB. I'll try out soon. (I got a CD, but > it didn't work because of some data error during dd'ing the thingy.) > I knew a friend who had Minix installed on a 286, 1 MB, 40 MB HDD laptop. He lugged the thing around, just to show everybody he had UNIX on his laptop.` Karel Jansens jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net ======================================================= "The method employed I would gladly explain, While I have it so clear in my head, If I had but the time and you had but the brain - But much yet remains to be said." the Hunting of the Snark (Lewis Carroll) ======================================================= --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: osbo082@ibm.net 22-Dec-99 09:33:17 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:07 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 19:20:46, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: |On 21 Dec 1999 04:32:02 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: |>On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:53:50, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: |> |>|On 20 Dec 1999 17:12:11 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: |>|>On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:43:59, David H. McCoy <fake@forgitaboutit.com> |>|>said: |>|> |>|>|In article <OIf74.550$H_5.61262@typhoon1.rdc-detw.rr.com>, kwilas@stardock.com |>|>|says... |>|>|>In article <385D21B4.4DEA6ED1@ibm.net>, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote: |>|>|>>The safest place for data is, sorry, web based services which are commonl |[deletia] |>|> |>|>Sure and there was a bunch of people in Africa that thought it would |>|>be better to stick with drums because they could keep the logs and |>|>sticks stored locally too. |>|> |>|>My gawd, Magumbo what if I don't get a dial tone!!!!! |>| |>| If you don't get dial tone, your apps are gone, PERIOD. |>| |>| No attempts to call anyone that disagrees with you some |>| sort of throwback will change this. The net isn't quite |>| as redundant as it used to be. At this point, it's far |>| too unreliable to trust your applications to. It's not |>| redundant enough. |>| |>| When your net based services have the redunandancy and |>| high availability that you can throw at your local |>| servers or even your local workstations, then this sort |>| of application will start to make sense. |> |>All points well taken, except the current state of redundancy. Of |>course, maybe you cannot buy good redundancy for $19.95 a month from |>MSN, but that doesn't mean it is not available to those who need it |>and actually look for it. | | If you can't buy it from the likes of MSN then it's | impractical for nearly any consumer under discussion. | The level of expertise and expense required to ensure | reliability is too steep when compared to alternate | less-networked approaches. Granted that if actually a large percentage of people were looking for internet reliability, many would have to go to MSN. However, they say that the reason the capitalistic system works so well is that usually the system can catch up with the masses once the masses start looking for the product. The fact is that only some are looking now. |>Is it too expensive?. . . .no doubt for many applications, however it |>isn't for all applications. |> |>IMO, somebody is a throw back if they adopt an all or nothing |>viewpoint. Life is too complex for simple-minded dogma. The hard |>cold and undeniable facts are that remote applications and data |>exists, its real, and it is being used by many people and in fact in |>many cases it is irreplaceable by local storage as the essential |>mission it accomplishes would be lost if it were. | | OTOH, those of us that are responsible for corporate | services don't view this trivializing of the inherent | reliability problems of the current net as productive. | | It can be fixed, but for the time being it's broken. | Merely tolerating it like some 3rd world country with | a funky phone network is NOT the approach to take. | | We simply deserve better and shouldn't trust critical | services to the net as it is. Oh, make no mistake about it. I see serious reliability problems from a large number of ISP's. This lack of reliability is tolerated simply because the vast majority of people using the internet only have low grade uses for it. If reliability is a concern of yours, you can find it easily. If it is not a concern, then you won't even look. Because of this fact, it is simply ignorant to conclude that one "shouldn't trust critical services to the net as it is" without qualification. Life is seldom black and white, but indeed it does seem that a large number of people believe that it is. The net is a perfect example of this. The fact is one cannot correctly ascribe any single quality to the net overall, because the net is not one phone line, one ISP, or one of anything. The net is made up of millions of individual pieces each with its own set of qualities. These qualities run the whole gamut of degrees of quality. Calling the "net too unreliable for critical services", is tantamount to saying that "vehicles are too unreliable for important transportation", or that "pans are too small for cooking a casserole". Some vehicles are too unreliable and some pans are too small, but not all. Some pundits, who so far have completely missed the mark, have been predicting for years a great internet meltdown. To date this has not occurred. Their perceptions of the reliability of the internet were as flawed then as yours is today. I apologize for the bluntness of my comments, but when one has had the opportunity to physically observe that your observations are in error, one has to decide if one should just continue to roll on the floor in hysterics and say nothing, or whether one should set the record straight. ROFLMAO --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 22-Dec-99 09:28:27 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:07 Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451535 From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) Today's Amodeo digest: 1> As pleased as I am to have met with your approval, your recognition 1> is quite irrelevant. My so-called "recognition" is at least as relevant as your observations, Marty, given that it dealt directly with them. 2> How ironic, considering the non sequitur nature of the above 2> paragraph. Exactly what response of Curtis' does my paragraph allegedly not follow logically, Marty? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IFA B-111 (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 22-Dec-99 10:33:29 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:07 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:45:27 GMT, cbass2112@my-deja.com <cbass2112@my-deja.com> wrote: >In article <slrn85utiu.fk.veit@simi.gmd.de>, > veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: > >-- snip -- > >> Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language. C is a pretty >> well suited language to write lousy code, and C++ is even a negative >> improvement to that. > >With all due respect, this is true of any language, including assembler >and training languages like Pascal. I've seen lousy code written in >several languages; there is nothing especially magical about C in this >regard, if you are willing to overlook the obvious issue of pointer >arithmetic nonsense. C and particularly C++ have evolved to conceptual mess, a jack of all cards, to provide everything that might be useful somehow to anyone. Other languages of this kind are Perl and VHDL, for instance. The result is: if people can do anything with it, they will do anything. Compare the OO concept in C++ (or rather lack thereof) with pure OO languages like Smalltalk and Eiffel (and to some degree also Java). It is absolutely no problem in C and C++ to write code that is not object oriented - OO is not just the fact that you write the same old spaghetti code as usual, but wrap it with the 'class' keyword. The effect is that a clean concept will be easily given up, whenever some short-sighted hack promises a fast workaround. C and C++ offer all facilities to circumvent good design. This is almost impossible to write anything that is not object-oriented in Java, without directly receiving the feeling that the way to code everything into "public static void" methods is utterly ugly. >> If you write assembler, you have to consider what you do, how you >> layout structures, pass parameters, call procuedures etc. because >> every conceptual flaw will shoot back at you pretty fast. > >However, as a software developer, I consider my time too valuable to >squander it deciding where each byte of code should reside in RAM. The You are no software engineer if you don't care about the problem. You are then just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for. Sorry. In this generality, your statement is absolutely unacceptable. If the problem requires to take care about memory requirements, and you don't because your time is too valuable to look into the pits, then you do a pretty lousy job. In most cases, it is just laziness to solve a problem appropriately - the next generation Pentium with more RAM will clean up the problem. Not only this: as long as people are stupid enough to believe that a computer normally needs to be reboot 5 times a day, there is no reason to provide good artwork. Hence, the term "good-enough software" became popular for this, an excuse to do the work because others don't care either. >reason we *have* HLLs is to free us from that kind of tyranny, and allow >us to concentrate on the problem at hand. If software coders actually cared about the problem, we'd not have banana software all over the place. >> With a high level language, you write something and hope that the >> compiler will optimize your nonsense. Garbage-In, Garbage-out. > >You are alluding to the pointer arithmetic I mentioned earlier, I hope. >:) Beyond that, I take exception to the notion that my code is >"nonsense." Pointer arithmetic is just one minor brick in the whole wall. The only thing it produces is obscure and hard to find bugs who no one really cares as noone really cares to test one's work thouroughly enough anymore. Use the users as guinea pigs to find out what might be wrong, it is less trouble. Some more are: "glueware" or middleware that is required to convert some A data to some B data because developers haven't thought about data structures (i.e. they have hacked something together what they thought would look nice instead to doing a real problem analysis first), excessive code duplication, not only by the use of foreign "component" or "widget" libraries, but mainly because space and time does no longer matter, careless selection of algorithms like using quicksort on a 3-element array or linear lists for random access to thousands of items. And one then wraps the whole stuff into arbitrary classes and sell the product as "new! now using object-oriented design". >> Disk space is dirt cheap, and you aren't interested why the hell such >> a lousy little DLL occupies 800KBytes on disk - you normally can't >> find out at all anyway, normally. > >Which is probably just as well. Yes, indeed, hardware is cheap, which is >another strike against assembler, especially as a general-purpose >development tool. Back when assembler ruled the roost, hardware was >considerably more expensive, and the programmer's time was comparatively >cheap. > >And don't forget the portability issue -- would you have even >*considered* porting XFree86 to OS/2 if it had been written in 100% >assembler? I do not advocate for using assembler for all and everything; don't miss my point. XFree86 contains several parts written in assembler, and one of the main reasons of the xf86sup driver (which also contains assembler) actually was to avoid rewriting these assembler parts. It is BTW possible to write readable assembler code - some of IBMs drivers from the DDK use pretty clever designed assembler macros to structure the code. I do advocate against the "new age" generation of programmers whose first language is Visual Basic, and who have never understood enough of the concept of a CPU register at all to estimate how the system they are programming really works. They are not only the car drivers who don't know how to refill gas, they haven't even a slightest idea what traffic lights are good for, except hindering the free flow of traffic. Interestingly, this "you don't need to understand anything, just assemble parts" concept, is not actually new: it was found already in the 60s, when IBM hired untrained people to write applications in CICS Cobol. The problems that indirectly resulted from that might be still visible (hopefully not) in 10 days. Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 22-Dec-99 11:01:28 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:07 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:38:27 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: [...] >I dont doubt that Unix/Linux's pageing stategies do differ from >OS/2's. But, Linux's is faster (at least it is for me - and I'm >using Stampede, which seems to be the LEAST of the known >flavors) I cant say I know why either :), but what I DONT under >-stand, is that OS/2 hasnt adopted it. I mean, I hear that there >have been some major changes to OS/2's kernel, as far as >memory managment, but what's supposed to be better actually >causes more disk activity and swapping to occur. There are several reasons: there is probably nothing in the world that is so conservative than IBM, maybe with the exceptions of the catholic church, so modifying the foundations of an existing kernel without real demands from a top100 customer is not their thing. There is also the technical reason that the memory overcommit strategy here results in severe problems on systems that are typically low on resources. It is much more safe for an ATM under OS/2 to fail with a message "cannot run more processes because there is no more memory or swap space" than just begin some transaction and fail within under uncertain conditions and with in unsafe state. You likely know the prominent error message of M$ Word "Cannot save document. Press F1 to save your document and exit". If you run out of swap space in OS/2, you get a textmode box with a warning: you can ignore it and will find out about the consequences or terminate this or another application in order to provide more resources. In Linux, the system will simply stop (you won't see it normally, as one rarely runs the system into full load). >I heard from a friend that's used OS/2 from v2.0 on up, and >has stated that v2.0 and (I'm pretty sure) v2.1 seem to use >the swap file more "reasonably" (as in it didnt use it primarily) >but once 2.99 came along, everything was different. Now >one cant even boot OS/2 w/o using a swap file if they have >less than 64megs (possibly more) of memory (I know - I only >have 40megs :). OS/2 4.0 does much more below the surface than 2.0. 4.0 has much more WPS classes around (compare Warp Center stuff with OS/2's taskbar), has the network (IBMCOM/MPTN/TCPIP) integrated, has memory pigs like Netscape and Voicetype which require there share. Yet, Aurora runs on my Notebook with 32 MB RAM reasonably, as long as I don't attempt to compile XFree86 in the background. [...] >But I guess the reason OS/2 still needs a pretty nice system >to run efficiantly is because possibly of all the backward >compatability that remains in the code. This can have >plenty of advantages for many people, concidering the fact >that that probably the drivers that are available for their h/w >might be from an older version of OS/2. But than again >maybe not - you are able to compile Linux w/ compatability >to handle older inefficiant A.OUT (pretty sure thats it?) binary >types, as well the more used ELF format. But Linux's memory >managment still is VERY efficiant even with compatability. OS/2 was not primarily made to run any different file formats, and both ELF and a.out formats are reasonably primitive, compared to NE/LX/PE(=COFF) formats to retain backward compatibility. a.out was the equivalent of DOS COM files, later became a container for the standard segments .text, .data, and .bss . This came from a pure 16 bit system (PDP-11) and there needn't be any provision for 16 vs 32 bit hybride code, having become popular with the 286/386s. Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 22-Dec-99 11:08:06 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:07 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:23:11 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: >On 21 Dec 1999 12:57:55 GMT, Holger Veit wrote: > >>On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:38:54 -0500 (CST), Trancser <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: >>>>>Is there ANYTHING that OS/2 would (or does) NOTICABLY exceed Linux with?? >>>> >>>>Process/thread scheduling and DOS emulation. >>>> >>>>Holger >>> >>>I'm suprised you didnt also add the WPS in there :) >> >>The WPS is a nice concept and a lousy implementation. >> > >Are you refering to code bloat? I guess this is true, since theres a lot of >wps replacement shell's out there (so far though none that appear to have >100% compatability with all the fucntions of the OS like printing and icon's >among other stuff probably) I am referring to code separation. A bug in one WPS DLL will affect the whole WPS. The WPS is only one piece of code, and it is extremely deep integrated into the whole system (including certain special kernel support) that there is no fallback in case of failure. If the X server crashes under Linux (which is also only one process), you switch to another console, remove the remains and start it again. With OS/2, you might still be able to login through a telnet, but you won't be able to revive WPS again without reboot (IBM's enchanted "Session Manager Hack"). Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 22-Dec-99 05:28:09 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:08 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> >> >The WPS is a nice concept and a lousy implementation. >> > >> >> Are you refering to code bloat? > >Likely he is not. He's probably referring to the poor error tolerance of the >WPS. When a WPS spawned action goes sour, it tends to take the whole WPS down >with it. That's a poor design. It's not terribly bloated as GUIs go >(especially in terms of "bang for the buck"). > >- Marty Well, yea. Got a point there! A simple folder on the desktop can die (ya cant close it) ...so ya pretty much have to reboot. ....killing wps (assuming thats what happens when you kill PMSHELL.EXE?) doesnt even help things. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: dmhills@attglobal.net 22-Dec-99 23:41:16 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:08 Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2 From: dmhills@attglobal.net (Don Hills) In article <385F8424.FD229B9D@frostbytes.com>, Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote: > >You sure can stop Word from running CMD.EXE; just remove the execute privilege >from the ACL. Done. (You almost certainly want the admin group to be able to >run it, though, I bet you'll have booting problems otherwise.) But really >this is not important because CMD.EXE access doesn't hurt anything that >couldn't be hurt through some application. The security designers weren't amateurs. This was a law enforcement system and it was designed to be tight. Word was the only app that *could* hurt anything on these systems. The other apps were custom or 3rd party. Search for INCIS, if you have a few evenings free. You'll be "shocked and amazed", it all ended with the NZ Government and IBM suing each other... >Generally problems doing this come down to one or two configuration problems: >1) You're using FAT instead of NTFS so you don't have filesystem access >control. 2) You're allowing users to run as administrator. NTFS, and only the security people could run administrator. I was in the "third level" support group that got the "hard" problems, and we had to pass the call to the security group whenever permissions etc needed setting up or changing- and, for example, to recreate directories that only some task with administrator privileges could have deleted... and the only way to be able to log on as administrator was for the machine to be connected to the network so it could reach the security server, and all accesses were logged and audited. >Gripes aside, it is possible to lock down NT quite tightly -- and it's not >even all that hard. I agree, but I'd phrase it like this: it's not rocket science, but it's not possible to make it airtight. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: christian.g@ibm.net 22-Dec-99 06:08:27 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:08 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> "Bob Germer" <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> wrote in message news:386086fe$2$obot$mr2ice@news.pics.com... > On <38604207_1@news3.prserv.net>, on 12/21/99 at 09:29 PM, > "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> said: > > > I first learned about the free Solaris OS kits here in COOA, so I > > thought it appropriate to post the link to the MS offer. An excellent > > You were fucking wrong you rude bastard. You're a class act, Bob. cg --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: christian.g@ibm.net 22-Dec-99 06:28:03 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:08 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> "Joseph" <josco@ibm.net> wrote in message news:38604ABE.9DD4495C@ibm.net... > > Christian Gustafson wrote: > > > "David H. McCoy" <fake@forgitaboutit.com> wrote in message news:MPG.12ca1c2b4067cd2e989693@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com... > > > > > > Guess what? OS/2 Warp Beta 2 isn't available either. Nor is Warp 4 beta? Now > > > that's goofy! > > > > How 'bout that Warp 5 client beta? > > How about Warp V 4.0 Release 9.035. > > How about getting over OS/2 and trying to help decipher MS's plans for those NOT interested in buying 256MB Pentium IIIs. I'll have to get back to you on this one, especially the CE, er, Windows Powered, angle. I hope that MS will get this one right on the next rev, again, the pressure is on them either to deliver or leave the patient on the table. I confess that I am ordering another 128MB DIMM from http://www.crucial.com (excellent prices) before I install W2K. Isn't there one last "Millennium" version of the 9x series coming out? I'll have to find the latest Ballmer interview / press release / People magazine sidebar to figure out what is their overall strategy right now. I'm not sure of their current plans to support the 486SX and 5-volt Pentium-60 markets -- here's a real opportunity for OS/2 evangelists. cg -- :::::===== Christian Gustafson :::::===== Marina City, Chicago ========== ========== --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: uno@40th.com 22-Dec-99 12:15:18 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:08 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com) Holger Veit? (veit@simi.gmd.de?) wrote (22 Dec 1999 10:33:59 GMT): >cbass2112@my-deja.com <cbass2112@my-deja.com> wrote: >>However, as a software developer, I consider my time too valuable to >>squander it deciding where each byte of code should reside in RAM. The > >You are no software engineer if you don't care about the problem. You are >then just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for. Sorry. As you should be. Anyone using an assembler to do more than a few lines of code is not a real programmer but a has-been hack -- a dinosaur. No wonder you're stuck in OS2 -- it fits you well. Yes, stuck: assembly is very, very OS/CPU specific. That's why OS2 is x86 only, and its port (attempt) to PowerPC was a dismail failure (thanks to all the assembly/CPU specific code). >Pointer arithmetic is just one minor brick in the whole wall. The only >thing it produces is obscure and hard to find bugs who no one really cares >as noone really cares to test one's work thouroughly enough anymore. Use Coming from you, that's not surprising. It's convenient, and not at all bug-prone. If anything, it prevents bugs. Besides, you don't have to use it: just use a char * for everything. BTW, there is no word "noone", no matter how many times you see it on usenet. >I do not advocate for using assembler for all and everything; don't miss Then what exactly is your beef? >actually was to avoid rewriting these assembler parts. It is BTW possible >to write readable assembler code - some of IBMs drivers from the DDK use Only by those who know x86 assembly, and the assembler syntax used. Look at MIPS or SHx assembly and you won't think they're anything close to "readable". Every programmer, just about, can read C. >pretty clever designed assembler macros to structure the code. Macros -- the number one bug generator and cause of unreadability in all of programming. It's a short-cut that seldom is called for, especially with today's compilers where a function call will do nicely since the compiler will just inline it, letting you debug it, etc. (of course, there's no such thing as a smart assembler -- that's even a revolting concept among asm coders). >I do advocate against the "new age" generation of programmers whose >first language is Visual Basic, and who have never understood enough You mean the ones that write 20 useful apps for every one, limited-use utility you might write? Besides, who is going to use your applet? A few dozen OS2 hangers on? Besides, why do you care if these people waste their time trying to do an OS2 clone? 'Fraid they might just do it, are you? Do yourself a favor, Veit, dump OS2 and get on the Windows' train. You won't have so many mood swings, for one, and maybe you'll learn something new. By now, you've probably had your fill of OS2, and it shows. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Yanaguana (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jimf@frostbytes.com 22-Dec-99 07:30:14 To: All 22-Dec-99 10:31:08 Subj: Re: question about OS/2's memory managment and ... From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> Mike Ruskai wrote: > >(I still wish that OS/2 used a simular method of executing programs like > >Linux does - that and dynamic disk cache ....but I guess I'll stop saying > >that, since I doubt anyone would ever add such a feature to OS/2 ...sides me > >:) > > I personally wouldn't add a dynamic disk cache, but I would add a larger > one. > > Dynamic caches inevitably run into problems of contention, when there's > lots of disk activity, and memory becomes overcommitted. Neither Win9x > nor WinNT deal with this situation well at all. Just because Windows sucks at it is no reason to believe it can't be done. Several UNIXen do a very nice job at managing the contention between cache and program requirements. The first such UNIX I used was (I think) SunOS 4.0.3, but there have been many more since. There have also been some notable failures, particularly early versions of AIX. jim --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Road Runner (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov 22-Dec-99 08:15:26 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: Bennie Nelson <b.l.nelson@larc.nasa.gov> "uno@40th.com" wrote: > > Holger Veit? (veit@simi.gmd.de?) wrote (22 Dec 1999 10:33:59 GMT): > >cbass2112@my-deja.com <cbass2112@my-deja.com> wrote: > >>However, as a software developer, I consider my time too valuable to > >>squander it deciding where each byte of code should reside in RAM. The > > > >You are no software engineer if you don't care about the problem. You are > >then just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for. Sorry. > > As you should be. Anyone using an assembler to do more than > a few lines of code is not a real programmer but a has-been > hack -- a dinosaur. No wonder you're stuck in OS2 -- it fits > you well. Yes, stuck: assembly is very, very OS/CPU specific. > That's why OS2 is x86 only, and its port (attempt) to PowerPC > was a dismail failure (thanks to all the assembly/CPU specific > code). By the same logic, anyone who codes games for directx only or someone who codes more than a few lines in VisualBasic is, in your words, "not a real programmer but a has-been hack -- a dinosaur." A craftsman chooses the most appropriate tool available for the task at hand. To a hack who only has a hammer, all problems appear to be nails. Regards, Bennie Nelson --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA, USA (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bv@bigblue.no 22-Dec-99 13:48:14 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: Project Concorde - plan to run Win32 apps under OS/2 From: bv@bigblue.no (Bj¢rn Vermo) On Sat, 18 Dec 1999 14:59:09, Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote: > > Token ring has its own problems. Mainly the lack of competent personell. > > If you have a drive you're not diskless. It makes a difference because the > disk is one of the few components that is likely to fail at least once in the > lifetime of a typical machine. Now, I completely agree that you can utilize > the disk as a local cache for huge wins, but it's not diskless anymore. > Define "lifetime of a typical machine" and "likely to fail". Unless you purchase garbage or turn the drives on and off all the time, the MTBF of even rather inexpensive modern drives is over ten years. Now, if the drive in a WSOD client croaks, the user might complain about the ugly sound and there might be a small drop in performance, but there is no rush to replace it. The client works perfectly well without it. Of course, if you run remotely over TCP/IP with an ISDN connection (or worse), the loss of the local drive would hurt performance seriously, but that is another matter. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jmalloy@borg.com 22-Dec-99 08:49:03 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451535.479037230^-345790 From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> Today's Tholen digest: [is full of nothing newsworthy, as usual, from Tholen.] Bye! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bv@bigblue.no 22-Dec-99 14:07:04 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: do you have OS/2 1.1? From: bv@bigblue.no (Bj¢rn Vermo) On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 02:50:37, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) wrote: > > But there's the old argument about what constitutes an "OS". > I have newer heard anybody claim that GEM was, or even was based on, an operating system. Windows 95 is the first Windows product which manages to satisfy the usual minimum requirements for being called an operating system rather than just a program loader with a file system. GEM and Windows were not even integrated into the underlying program loader (PC-DOS or MS-DOS), so they only qualify as graphical user applications. If we apply the terminology of the mainframe pioneers to the microcomputer world, operating systems were usually only found on minicomputers and larger up to the mid eighties. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: lucien@metrowerks.com 22-Dec-99 14:01:27 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: Navigator 4.7 is available!! OS/2 is behind again!! From: lucien@metrowerks.com In article <83p3vf$1sn$1@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote: > Lucien writes: > > Because you provided no explicit answer to the question > > > > "Is the JDK sentence ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification?" > > you tacitly agreed to the conditions I set forth in my original > > inquiry > > Ah, because you cannot identify the alleged agreement, you instead > call it "tacit". Wrong. As clarified by the conditions set forth in my posts, remaining ambivalent upon the question (see above) constitutes an implicit agreement to "The JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT (grammatical) quantification" as an explication of your position. Your choice to not respond with an explicit answer suffices, therefore, as an agreement to those conditions. Thus, the debate continues upon this basis. You may, at any time, override this assumption by providing an explicit answer to the question (yes or no will do). > I'd call it your fantasy. The reader will note here the continued introduction of frustrated, diversionary irrelevancies, Dave's typical resort when the logic and evidence have run out. > > You may, at any time, override this assumption by supplying an > > explicit (i.e. yes/no) answer to the original question. > > I provided an explicit answer to the *original* question long ago, > Lucien. Reproduce it here. Be concise and clear. Otherwise, the debate continues upon the assumptions made above. > >>> explain why these two variants of the JDK sentence are grammatical, > >>> coherent sentences of English: > >>> > >>> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements some Java 1.2 functionality." > >>> > >>> "OS/2 Java 1.1.8 implements all Java 1.2 functionality." > > Specifically, your assertion that the original JDK sentence is not > > ambiguous WRT quantification (regardless of the source of the > > disambiguation) predicts that one of these variants of the JDK sentence > > should be impossible; > > And I previously noted that the second is illogical, Uninformed response. As I've stated previously, this section is crucially concerned with the grammaticality of the sentences and not any alleged "illogic" of the sentences (the reader will note Dave's apparent ignorance of this important distinction). Most critically, that both sentences are grammatical, coherent sentences of English is inconsistent with your assertion that the original JDK sentence is not ambiguous WRT quantification. Explain why. Lucien S. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 22-Dec-99 09:12:08 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: Using LXLite on OS/2 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Mike Ruskai wrote: > > Each time a process attempts to access an address range that isn't in > memory, the processor throws an exception (13, or 0Dh). Nitpick: Wouldn't that be 0Eh (Page fault)? - Marty --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 22-Dec-99 09:13:25 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Bob Germer wrote: > > On <38604207_1@news3.prserv.net>, on 12/21/99 at 09:29 PM, > "Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> said: > > > I first learned about the free Solaris OS kits here in COOA, so I > > thought it appropriate to post the link to the MS offer. An excellent > > You were fucking wrong you rude bastard. How ironic, coming from a "rude bastard" who was also "fucking wrong" and failed to admit it. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 22-Dec-99 06:38:18 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> "uno@40th.com" wrote: > Holger Veit? (veit@simi.gmd.de?) wrote (22 Dec 1999 10:33:59 GMT): > >cbass2112@my-deja.com <cbass2112@my-deja.com> wrote: > >>However, as a software developer, I consider my time too valuable to > >>squander it deciding where each byte of code should reside in RAM. The > > > >You are no software engineer if you don't care about the problem. You are > >then just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for. Sorry. > > As you should be. Anyone using an assembler to do more than > a few lines of code is not a real programmer but a has-been > hack -- a dinosaur. It would be refreshing to see someone speak intelligently and still make a decent case for using MS's software. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@ibm.net 22-Dec-99 07:00:24 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> Christian Gustafson wrote: > "Joseph" <josco@ibm.net> wrote in message news:38604ABE.9DD4495C@ibm.net... > > > > Christian Gustafson wrote: > > > > > "David H. McCoy" <fake@forgitaboutit.com> wrote in message news:MPG.12ca1c2b4067cd2e989693@news-server.mgfairfax.rr.com... > > > > > > > > Guess what? OS/2 Warp Beta 2 isn't available either. Nor is Warp 4 beta? Now > > > > that's goofy! > > > > > > How 'bout that Warp 5 client beta? > > > > How about Warp V 4.0 Release 9.035. > > > > How about getting over OS/2 and trying to help decipher MS's plans for those NOT interested in buying 256MB Pentium IIIs. > > I'll have to get back to you on this one, especially the CE, er, Windows Powered, > angle. I hope that MS will get this one right on the next rev, again, the pressure > is on them either to deliver or leave the patient on the table. > > I confess that I am ordering another 128MB DIMM from http://www.crucial.com > (excellent prices) before I install W2K. W2K isn't going to cut it on the typical home PC purchase - web surfing and minor tasks. MS has had serious size and performance problems with WinCE on the low end. They've even struggled to get WinCE into WebTV. WinCE 3.0 is due soon (if not out) and it's really a make or break edition. I question if MS knows the market(s). WinCE fits on devices like the Dreamcast but the DirectX API has to be system specific and therefore isn't very portable to PCs. Still WinCE has some promise. The OS comes on the same CD as the application (IE) and enables the Dreamcast to surf the web. (It cannot be embedded into the platform - just shipped with the application) I'm not sure WinCE is going to be an effective multimedia OS. BeOS and Liberate's technology (based on X and NetBSD) seem better suited for home entertainment. > Isn't there one last "Millennium" version of the 9x series coming out? I'll have to > find the latest Ballmer interview / press release / People magazine sidebar to > figure out what is their overall strategy right now. Yes. Millennium sounds significant but it is a minor refreseh of the same Win95 codes base with home networking features added. Little will change from what they did with Win95. Some futute date MS will use W2K for the basis of the next OS but IMHO that's 4-5 years off given their development cycles and still to be completed Enterprise W2K efforts. > I'm not sure of their current plans to support the 486SX and 5-volt Pentium-60 > markets -- here's a real opportunity for OS/2 evangelists. This isn't a small market. Leaving behind these purchases, making customers buy a new PC is one of MS's biggest liabilities as a wanna-be consumer company. Ironically, MS could use OS/2 as a low end consumer OS. It's lean and powerful. Embedded into devices, it could do them well. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 22-Dec-99 15:13:15 To: All 22-Dec-99 15:50:24 Subj: Re: Using LXLite on OS/2 From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:12:16 -0500, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote: >Mike Ruskai wrote: >> >> Each time a process attempts to access an address range that isn't in >> memory, the processor throws an exception (13, or 0Dh). > >Nitpick: Wouldn't that be 0Eh (Page fault)? No. Paging is normal operation. Exception 0D is thrown when paging fails because there is no allocated page for the requested address, i.e. the corresponding PTE (page table entry) is marked invalid. Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@borneo.gmd.de 22-Dec-99 19:50:21 To: All 22-Dec-99 18:17:14 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: veit@borneo.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On 22 Dec 1999 16:20:40 GMT, uno@40th.com <uno@40th.com> wrote: [...] >>You want to demonstrate, as a loser, in a newsgroup for losers, >>(and I trust your judgement to be a loser yourself fully - given the >>garbage you advocate for), that your presence here is essential? > >Essential only to the point that there are so few left in >os2.advocacy these days. Where'd all the OS2 advocates go? >No need to answer -- you know, I know, everyone knows. Well, I agree, I have as well observed that the list of posting incredibly went down in c.o.o.a. after I had killfiled all the garbage from the homeless windows idiots that are trolling around here (I suspect they are here for the only reason that they have been thrown off from the windows groups for long already - these Win-Losers may be worshipping BG on sabbats, but are at least knowledgable enough to distinguish between humans and troll-bots. >>Thanks, Sir, no more questions. > >You've folding? No, no, I've just ranked you from a -1 score to -9999 meaning you are no longer worth to even serve for a good laugh. Already? The truth hurts, but face it, OS2 is >dead and that's all this NG is really about. There's nothing Dead? So you are here in this NG being necrophile? -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cbass2112@my-deja.com 22-Dec-99 19:47:03 To: All 22-Dec-99 18:17:14 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: cbass2112@my-deja.com In article <slrn861a8m.3od.veit@simi.gmd.de>, veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: -- snip -- > C and particularly C++ have evolved to conceptual mess, a jack of all > cards, to provide everything that might be useful somehow to anyone. > Other languages of this kind are Perl and VHDL, for instance. The > result is: if people can do anything with it, they will do anything. > Compare the OO concept in C++ (or rather lack thereof) with pure OO > languages like Smalltalk and Eiffel (and to some degree also Java). > It is absolutely no problem in C and C++ to write code that is not > object oriented - OO is not just the fact that you write the same old > spaghetti code as usual, but wrap it with the 'class' keyword. The > effect is that a clean concept will be easily given up, whenever some > short-sighted hack promises a fast workaround. C and C++ offer all > facilities to circumvent good design. This is almost impossible to > write anything that is not object-oriented in Java, without directly > receiving the feeling that the way to code everything into "public > static void" methods is utterly ugly. Hmm. I was under the impression that this was a C versus Assembler discussion, not a general Software Engineering discussion. For the record, I agree with your sentiments. However, we should understand that languages like C++ and Perl simply have a different philosophical basis than "pure" languages like Smalltalk and Eiffel. For example, Larry Wall explained that Perl was messy simply because reality is messy. You don't have to agree with Wall or use his language, but someone who is not "just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for" should at least respect the philosophy, even if he or she disagrees with it. > >> If you write assembler, you have to consider what you do, how you > >> layout structures, pass parameters, call procuedures etc. because > >> every conceptual flaw will shoot back at you pretty fast. > > > >However, as a software developer, I consider my time too valuable to > >squander it deciding where each byte of code should reside in RAM. > > You are no software engineer if you don't care about the problem. You > are then just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for. > Sorry. In this generality, your statement is absolutely unacceptable. Well, I neither said nor implied that I didn't "care about the problem." Again, I thought this discussion was about C (or any HLL) versus Assembler; I simply consider Assembler a waste of valuable time in the general sense, precisely because you *do* have to sweat over each byte of code, thinking in terms of the machine's architecture rather than the problem space. And, regardless of which language I use for a particular job, I do strive to write intelligent, readable code that's easy to maintain. If I am using REXX or TCL/TK, I am certainly not going to worry about RAM requirements or execution speed. If I do need to worry about RAM requirements or execution speed, then I would choose a more appropriate language. Calling me "just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for" doesn't change any of that. Frankly, anyone who hires me over the mediocrity out there demonstrates a high degree of intelligence. > If the problem requires to take care about memory requirements, and > you don't because your time is too valuable to look into the pits, > then you do a pretty lousy job. In most cases, it is just laziness to > solve a problem appropriately - the next generation Pentium with more > RAM will clean up the problem. Not only this: as long as people are > stupid enough to believe that a computer normally needs to be reboot > 5 times a day, there is no reason to provide good artwork. Hence, the > term "good-enough software" became popular for this, an excuse to do > the work because others don't care either. Again, you are going off on a tangent, and again, I am not disagreeing with any of this. > >reason we *have* HLLs is to free us from that kind of tyranny, and > >allow us to concentrate on the problem at hand. > > If software coders actually cared about the problem, we'd not have > banana software all over the place. Someone once said, "90% of everything is crap." I wish I knew who it was who said that. It certainly rings true with the code I have seen over the years. > >> With a high level language, you write something and hope that the > >> compiler will optimize your nonsense. Garbage-In, Garbage-out. > > > >You are alluding to the pointer arithmetic I mentioned earlier, I > >hope. :) Beyond that, I take exception to the notion that my code > >is "nonsense." > > Pointer arithmetic is just one minor brick in the whole wall. The only > thing it produces is obscure and hard to find bugs who no one really > cares as noone really cares to test one's work thouroughly enough > anymore. Use the users as guinea pigs to find out what might be wrong, > it is less trouble. Some more are: "glueware" or middleware that is > required to convert some A data to some B data because developers > haven't thought about data structures (i.e. they have hacked something > together what they thought would look nice instead to doing a real > problem analysis first), excessive code duplication, not only by the > use of foreign "component" or "widget" libraries, but mainly because > space and time does no longer matter, careless selection of algorithms > like using quicksort on a 3-element array or linear lists for random > access to thousands of items. And one then wraps the whole stuff into > arbitrary classes and sell the product as "new! now using > object-oriented design". I was in a flame-war with an author named Martin (not James Martin, some other guy who wrote a book about developing C++ code from Booch OOD notation) who took exception to calling Smalltalk a "pure oopl." For whatever reason, he took it as a personal insult that someone would call his precious C++ an "impure" object-oriented programming language. I tried to draw parallels with Pascal, in which unstructured code is more difficult to write than it is in a language such as BASIC, just as non-OO code is more difficult to write in Smalltalk than in C++. One of Martin's supporters came back with the idea that one could take non-OO code in, say, Fortran, and simply attach each subroutine to a main object, and voila! You have translated non-OO structured code into "pure" OO. I suppose you could take it one step further (backward) and attach one long-winded, spaghetti-coded subroutine to an object and have spaghetti-coded "OOP." The bottom line is that nothing out there is a magical silver bullet. Any tool requires thought on the part of the user in order to get the most benefit from it, and any idiot can use a tool to produce crap regardless of the tool's sophistication. And don't get me wrong. Although hardware is cheap and developer time expensive, I don't advocate using that as an excuse for poor design and poor implementation. I only use it to justify using a HLL over Assembler in general. Using C or C++ should not translate into hacking without a design. Also, be aware that one can still hack crappy code using Assembler. -- snip -- > >And don't forget the portability issue -- would you have even > >*considered* porting XFree86 to OS/2 if it had been written in 100% > >assembler? > > I do not advocate for using assembler for all and everything; don't > miss my point. XFree86 contains several parts written in assembler, > and one of the main reasons of the xf86sup driver (which also contains > assembler) actually was to avoid rewriting these assembler parts. It > is BTW possible to write readable assembler code - some of IBMs > drivers from the DDK use pretty clever designed assembler macros to > structure the code. FWIW, on the rare occasions I have used assembler, I again made readability my primary goal, and agree that assembler can indeed be readable. Also, don't miss my point; I was only arguing against assembler as a general purpose development language, not against it's very existence. > I do advocate against the "new age" generation of programmers whose > first language is Visual Basic, and who have never understood enough > of the concept of a CPU register at all to estimate how the system > they are programming really works. They are not only the car drivers > who don't know how to refill gas, they haven't even a slightest idea > what traffic lights are good for, except hindering the free flow of > traffic. Interestingly, this "you don't need to understand anything, > just assemble parts" concept, is not actually new: it was found > already in the 60s, when IBM hired untrained people to write > applications in CICS Cobol. The problems that indirectly resulted > from that might be still visible (hopefully not) in 10 days. Well, again, part of the problem is that when these legacy COBOL systems were written, hardware and execution time *were* expensive resources, so saving a couple of bytes per record was considered a viable alternative for a file containing a hundred thousand records. The real problem is the short-sightedness that runs rampant in this industry -- those files should have been converted a decade and a half ago. Instead, we are settling for kludges such as windowing, or even worse, temporary on-the-fly expansion which can increase batch cycle run times by fifty percent or more. And I agree that the average level of awareness on Software Engineering concepts is dismally low, and the glitzy visual development environments are at least partly to blame. The advances made by the DeMarcos and Yourdons have given way to "RAD" and "visual development." We have reverted to the old "hack, run, debug" cycle that we recognized as a losing strategy only decade ago. For the record, I believe that RAD and visual development have their place, but again, having a solid S.E. background would allow the user of such tools to gain more benefit and avoid the pitfalls. -- snip -- Curtis Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: andrew@netneurotic.de 22-Dec-99 21:29:16 To: All 22-Dec-99 18:17:14 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) Holger Veit <veit@simi.gmd.de> wrote: > >Sorry, does that mean that (now) hpfs386 (for /2) is now M$ free? > > No. The real stupidity, American greed has produced, is software patents. Agreement. > >If 16-bit is known as "real mode" (it takes what it needs w/o asking the OS, > > No. 16 bit in the kernel is 16 bit protected mode code; with the few > exceptions of the DOS emulation engine that's part of the kernel, which > jump between VPM and V86 mode. I understand 16 bit proctedted mode code is what apeared when the 286 entered the stage? And OS/2 was originally meant to be _the_ OS/2 for the new IBM PC/AT (advanced technology) with the new 16 bit ISA bus and the revolutionary 286 CPU?` > >if I recall right?) and 32-bit is "protect mode" (it requests whatever > >resources it needs from the OS) would it not be better to have everything in > >32-bit mode, so that the OS itself handles all the memory managment, and > > You can't have everything in 32 bit code, unless you give up compatibility > with legacy software, for instance also old 1.x device drivers. With OS/2 PPC, > these old customs were cut away, so this version should be pretty purely > 32 bit only. Infact, the memory management stuff is 32 bit code. Afaik the PowerPC version of OS/2 ran on an IBM version of the MACH mikrokernel and worked similarly to MkLinux and MacOS X work today. I have used MkLinux. From a user point of view there are two major differences: a) It's slower than "normal" Linux (or OS/2 for that matter) b) you get a new set of boot messages before the Linux kernel boots (because both kernels MACH and Linux are registering all devices). Of course such a system can be easily ported to all platforms to which the mikrokernel in question has been ported already (Intel, PPC, and HP-RISC in the case of MACH and MkLinux). Has anyone here tried out MkLinux on Intel btw? Or even better: has anyone ever used OS/2 Warp Connect PowerPC Edition? Afaik it was based on Warp 3 (Warp Connect to be precise) and first appeared in 1995, only to vanish a few months later. -- Fan of Woody Allen User of MacOS, BeOS, LinuxPPC Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org 22-Dec-99 12:45:25 To: All 22-Dec-99 18:17:14 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: "Chad Mulligan" <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> <jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message news:slrn8620gn.bif.jedi@localhost.localdomain... > On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:22:39 -0800, Chad Mulligan <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: > ><jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message <trimmed> > > > >Actually we aren't an infinitesimal corner of the net, we are part of the > >backbone. > > That would certainly explain some of my connectivity issues... > No your inate lack of ability would explain that. > -- > > One of the great lies of our age is the myth that > Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random > collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| > the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ > > Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Hipcrime Vocabulary Organization (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@borneo.gmd.de 22-Dec-99 22:19:06 To: All 22-Dec-99 18:59:25 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: veit@borneo.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:47:06 GMT, cbass2112@my-deja.com <cbass2112@my-deja.com> wrote: >In article <slrn861a8m.3od.veit@simi.gmd.de>, > veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) wrote: [...] >Hmm. I was under the impression that this was a C versus Assembler >discussion, not a general Software Engineering discussion. For the >record, I agree with your sentiments. However, we should understand that >languages like C++ and Perl simply have a different philosophical basis >than "pure" languages like Smalltalk and Eiffel. For example, Larry >Wall explained that Perl was messy simply because reality is messy. You >don't have to agree with Wall or use his language, but someone who is >not "just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for" should >at least respect the philosophy, even if he or she disagrees with it. Good coders are not necessarily good software engineers. The messy reality argument is not very sound, because it replaces something not necessarily good with something probably bad. It's like the Robin Hood argument of robbing out the thief. I am, besides other things, working on robotic systems where you find a lot of incertainties of the environment. A robot has to cope with this kind of mess somehow. The answer to that is definitely not adding more mess, because the result is much likely more messy. >I was in a flame-war with an author named Martin (not James Martin, some >other guy who wrote a book about developing C++ code from Booch OOD >notation) who took exception to calling Smalltalk a "pure oopl." For >whatever reason, he took it as a personal insult that someone would call >his precious C++ an "impure" object-oriented programming language. I >tried to draw parallels with Pascal, in which unstructured code is more >difficult to write than it is in a language such as BASIC, just as >non-OO code is more difficult to write in Smalltalk than in C++. One of >Martin's supporters came back with the idea that one could take non-OO >code in, say, Fortran, and simply attach each subroutine to a main >object, and voila! You have translated non-OO structured code into >"pure" OO. I suppose you could take it one step further (backward) and >attach one long-winded, spaghetti-coded subroutine to an object and have >spaghetti-coded "OOP." This is just an indication that the person who brought this up misunderstood the whole OOA/OOD/OOP development cycle as the use of the 'class' keyword. An object, in short, is something with a single, precisely describeable function. The trick of the whole OO design is to clearly identify what the function is (in the context of abstraction, interfacing, reuse, etc.). Wrapping some arbitrary code into a class jacket usually violates at least one of such design rules. >The bottom line is that nothing out there is a magical silver bullet. Agreed. >Any tool requires thought on the part of the user in order to get the >most benefit from it, and any idiot can use a tool to produce crap >regardless of the tool's sophistication. My point is that you shouldn't give idiots the chance to use the tool at all, at least not in areas which are critical. And/or establish a design process that has chances to recognize and weed out bad design. It is known that it is not cheaper to produce a bad design in the long run. There are good methodologies and tools, and bad ones, and more important, goodness and badness are defined by the problem you want to deal with. >design. Also, be aware that one can still hack crappy code using >Assembler. Sure you can. But assembler is rather unforgiving, as I already mentioned: the problem with troubleshooting is that the trouble shoots back immediately here. It is educating: if you know that your next step might lead into the abyss, you won't stomp along like an elephant, but be very careful. A HLL gives a false impression of safety, and a bad HLL will honor even bad programming practice. This brings the discussion back to pointers in C: if there are no visible pointers at all, you won't run into the pointer<->number ambiguity, and you directly lose one potential source of problems. You might have pointers, but then don't have downcasts - another way to produce obscure constructs gone. >FWIW, on the rare occasions I have used assembler, I again made >readability my primary goal, and agree that assembler can indeed be >readable. Also, don't miss my point; I was only arguing against >assembler as a general purpose development language, not against it's >very existence. I wouldn't opt for assembler to write the whole CMD.EXE with it (this is to my best knowledge pure assembler) nor even the CONFIG.SYS parser (which is also assembler) - these are remains of the old OS/2 1.X kernel, because in these areas the only benefit is compactness of code. In a device driver or the interrupt handling section of the kernel, or the IPC message passing area of a micro kernel, it is probably esential. >And I agree that the average level of awareness on Software Engineering >concepts is dismally low, and the glitzy visual development environments >are at least partly to blame. The advances made by the DeMarcos and >Yourdons have given way to "RAD" and "visual development." We have >reverted to the old "hack, run, debug" cycle that we recognized as a >losing strategy only decade ago. > >For the record, I believe that RAD and visual development have their >place, but again, having a solid S.E. background would allow the user of >such tools to gain more benefit and avoid the pitfalls. We observe that in classical engineering disciplines, a structured and reliable development process has evolved over the decades. You wouldn't expect a car to stop and reboot once in a while because it is equipped with the add-on traction control and airbag systems. As long as S.E. is still associated with "programming" and "programming" is considered some kind of artwork, rather than craftmanship, the whole software development won't improve. I frankly do not see any light at the end of the tunnel there. Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: andrew@netneurotic.de 22-Dec-99 23:31:27 To: All 22-Dec-99 18:59:25 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote: > On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:49:00, andrew@netneurotic.de (Andrew J. Brehm) > wrote: > > Minix is considered "semi-free" I believe, but this is being nitpicking. > > :-) > > > .. which is considered a mortal sin in this NG <VBG> :-)) > > I'ts amazing, isn't it? :-) I'm going to study Minix next year at around > > this time at my university (that is if I don't work during the time > > instead). I'm looking forward to it. Actually, I've heard that Minix 2.0 > > (16 bit) can be run in an OS/2 VMB. I'll try out soon. (I got a CD, but > > it didn't work because of some data error during dd'ing the thingy.) > > > I knew a friend who had Minix installed on a 286, 1 MB, 40 MB HDD > laptop. He lugged the thing around, just to show everybody he had UNIX > on his laptop.` Well, yes, "Minix-UNIX", that is. However, I believe it can be a fun thing to have Minix standing by, especiallyif you run the 16 bit version in an OS/2 window... -- Fan of Woody Allen User of MacOS, BeOS, LinuxPPC Supporter of Pepperoni Pizza --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: josco@sea.monterey.edu 22-Dec-99 14:43:07 To: All 22-Dec-99 18:59:25 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: josco <josco@sea.monterey.edu> On 22 Dec 1999, Holger Veit wrote: > On 22 Dec 1999 16:20:40 GMT, uno@40th.com <uno@40th.com> wrote: > Already? The truth hurts, but face it, OS2 is > >dead and that's all this NG is really about. There's nothing > > Dead? So you are here in this NG being necrophile? http://dictionary.langenberg.com/ : obsession with and usually erotic interest in or stimulation by corpses --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: CSUnet (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: chris@os2ezine.com 22-Dec-99 15:28:15 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: chris@os2ezine.com (Chris Wenham) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:16:37, Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote: > One does not need multiple processors to enjoy a multithreaded application. ColorWorks had the option of dividing an operation up over n processors (it actually sliced the image into n strips and spawned n processes that the OS would do the job of assigning to different processors). This was a feature that made ColorWorks critically different from PhotoShop - since no matter how many processors you had, PhotoShop would still assign the job of filtering the whole image to only one CPU (only one thread). It was only by splitting the image up and running n threads that a photo application could really take advantage of SMP. So if it took 1 minute to run a gaussian blur on a single processor machine, ColorWorks had the potential to do it in only 25 seconds on a 4-processor system, but PhotoShop would have still taken a full minute on the same hardware. (SPG advertised a 100% return on each additional processor, with the job of splitting and stitching the image back together adding a negligable overhead) If an adequate (read: version 3.0 or later) SMP-enabled version of OS/2 had been made available in time, then ColorWorks would have had something important to compete against PhotoShop with when selling to professionals who could afford that kind of hardware. But there wasn't. Regards, Chris Wenham - editor@os2ezine.com The views expressed are mine. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: OS/2 e-Zine! (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 22-Dec-99 15:06:18 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On 22 Dec 1999 12:15:36 GMT, uno@40th.com <uno@40th.com> wrote: > >Holger Veit? (veit@simi.gmd.de?) wrote (22 Dec 1999 10:33:59 GMT): >>cbass2112@my-deja.com <cbass2112@my-deja.com> wrote: >>>However, as a software developer, I consider my time too valuable to >>>squander it deciding where each byte of code should reside in RAM. The >> >>You are no software engineer if you don't care about the problem. You are >>then just a dilettantic coder who someone really stupid pays for. Sorry. > >As you should be. Anyone using an assembler to do more than >a few lines of code is not a real programmer but a has-been >hack -- a dinosaur. No wonder you're stuck in OS2 -- it fits >you well. Yes, stuck: assembly is very, very OS/CPU specific. >That's why OS2 is x86 only, and its port (attempt) to PowerPC >was a dismail failure (thanks to all the assembly/CPU specific >code). You are talking shit. The failure of OS/2 PPC has nothing to do whatsoever with the amount of assembler in OS/2 x86. The PPC kernel didn't share much common code with the x86 kernel - it is a uKernel compared to the monolithic x86 thing. PPC failed - likewise to NT/MIPS, NT/ALPHA and NT/PPC for the single reason: presence (or precisely lack thereof) of affordable and reasonably widespread hardware (besides software, but the non-x86 NTs were WRT even less usable). That's nothing but a marketing failure, no technical issue. I don't mind being a dinosaur, if this means to use the suitable hardware and software for the job to do. The beef you ask for below is exactly that: if you want a performing system - this particularly accounts for those well-beloved silver bullets named micro kernel - it's a must to select appropriate description level, and this may account to a core of 10, or 20, or even 100k of hand-optimized assembler. If you write a user interface for a database that is accessed once in a decade, you might end up with a box of far-east sararimen punching cards and distributing them by US mail. >>I do not advocate for using assembler for all and everything; don't miss > >Then what exactly is your beef? > >>actually was to avoid rewriting these assembler parts. It is BTW possible >>to write readable assembler code - some of IBMs drivers from the DDK use > >Only by those who know x86 assembly, and the assembler syntax used. >Look at MIPS or SHx assembly and you won't think they're anything I can read RISC assembler...it is not that I want to spend my life writing groups of register load/add/shift stuff just to load a 64 bit literal into some register, but if needed, I'll do it. >close to "readable". Every programmer, just about, can read C. You want to look at the IOCCC... >>pretty clever designed assembler macros to structure the code. > >Macros -- the number one bug generator and cause of unreadability >in all of programming. It's a short-cut that seldom is called for, Macros... they are defined with some commands starting with a hash sign... In C++, you even have more bonus stuff: operator overloading, hidden constructor/destructor calling by intermediates, obscure template instantiation...thanks, been there, done that. >>I do advocate against the "new age" generation of programmers whose >>first language is Visual Basic, and who have never understood enough > >You mean the ones that write 20 useful apps for every one, limited-use >utility you might write? Besides, who is going to use your applet? A >few dozen OS2 hangers on? > >Besides, why do you care if these people waste their time trying to >do an OS2 clone? 'Fraid they might just do it, are you? Do yourself ROTFL. They'll never do it. Where would they acquire the knowledge? I don't see any of the few handful of skilled people able to write an OS from scratch (without basically copying concepts like the Linuxers) there; and if I'd belong to this handful, I'd probably better shoot myself than becoming the chief developer in a horde of engaged hobbyists. >a favor, Veit, dump OS2 and get on the Windows' train. You won't have >so many mood swings, for one, and maybe you'll learn something new. >By now, you've probably had your fill of OS2, and it shows. Why should I change to an inferior system like Windows? Just because everyone else eats shit? BTW, my collection of OS skills does also comprise several versions of Unix, several small embedded systems and, historically, also certain DEC stuff. I don't need colorful lowend garbage to live and work. Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: uno@40th.com 22-Dec-99 15:43:06 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com) Holger Veit? (veit@simi.gmd.de?) wrote (22 Dec 1999 15:06:36 GMT): >You are talking shit. How it tastes to you is your problem! >The failure of OS/2 PPC has nothing to do whatsoever >with the amount of assembler in OS/2 x86. The PPC kernel didn't share It has to do with the way OS2 was written, and assembly was the basis of OS2 1.x, and 2.0 didn't change that much. OS2 is tied to x86, thanks to assembly. NT is/was running on lots of CPUs. OS2 just x86 -- all it ever will run on. >I can read RISC assembler...it is not that I want to spend my life writing So you say. I'd think most programmers would rather read and code in C than assembly, esp MIPS. I won't go into the obvious reasons since you should already know them. >groups of register load/add/shift stuff just to load a 64 bit literal >into some register, but if needed, I'll do it. As soon as your drop into assembly for the "if needed" things, you really just sign your own fate away. Death follows, or at least a dead-end. I enjoy writing code once and compiling it for a half- dozen different CPUs without doing anything different, source-wise. >ROTFL. They'll never do it. Where would they acquire the knowledge? I don't They won't do it if they don't try, that's for sure. For all you know, one or more could be the next Franz Klamer and do an OS that beats all OSes for years to come. >Why should I change to an inferior system like Windows? Just because everyone First, it's not inferior. If anything, NT is Warp 5 and then some. Second, if you're not into buying canned apps, then maybe it's not all that more useful than OS2, but for me (and 99% of the rest of the world) it is the apps (stupid!). >else eats shit? BTW, my collection of OS skills does also comprise several >versions of Unix, several small embedded systems and, historically, also >certain DEC stuff. I don't need colorful lowend garbage to live and work. All dead just like the dinosaur. You and OS2 fit together (but I still think you'd rather be using something else, something that won't waste your future efforts -- I mean, what are you doing in .advocacy, the newsgroup for losers and those that pick on them?). --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Yanaguana (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: letoured@nospam.net 22-Dec-99 09:33:25 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: Who runs this country? From: letoured@nospam.net Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> said: You are the most brainless asshole I've ever seen. >> Why not just put everyone over 65 to death? >The world doesn't owe anyone a living. That includes people over 65 >years of age. It is your own responsibility to make sure you can live >after retirement. Lets apply personal responsibility to everything; only people who fly pay the entire cost of airports, ATC, etc.; only people who want to drive on paved roads pay for them; companies will no longer have any government protection, e.g., the off loading of costs on the public. Only the owners will be personally responsible for everything, good and bad. Or how about those who want churches get to pay all the costs for it; no tax deductions for any of it, the land, the buildings, the contributions, everything is taxed so no one else has to make up the deductions for something that is a personal responsibility, etc. >> >> universal school educations ... >> >Without a doubt! >> Now this is truly scary. >Not at all: private education is far better for people than public. The >competition between schools keeps it that way. Too bad you didn't finish school. <snip the rest of Britton drivel> Why don't you look that last word up. Its what you do all the time. _____________ Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net> --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: uno@40th.com 22-Dec-99 15:47:08 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com) Chris Wenham? (chris@os2ezine.com?) wrote (Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:28:31 GMT): > So if it took 1 minute to run a gaussian blur on a single processor >machine, ColorWorks had the potential to do it in only 25 seconds on a >4-processor system, but PhotoShop would have still taken a full minute >on the same hardware. (SPG advertised a 100% return on each additional >processor, with the job of splitting and stitching the image back >together adding a negligable overhead) So, you've discovered the 100-second minute? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Yanaguana (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: lucien@metrowerks.com 22-Dec-99 15:36:22 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: Bass digest, volume 2451534 From: lucien@metrowerks.com In article <83p4jv$5mu$1@news.hawaii.edu>, tholenantispam@hawaii.edu wrote: > Lucien writes: > >> Now it's not that the sentence is ambiguous, but rather that it is > >> "grammatically" ambiguous. > > > Now it's the same ambiguity at issue as always. > > Incorrect, given that the issue was never restricted to the grammatical > aspect. Wrong. The issue has always been concerned with the grammar of the sentences - the "(grammatical)" qualifier in the assertion merely clarifies this fact. The reader is directed to the other thread for details. Lucien S. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Deja.com - Before you buy. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: chris@os2ezine.com 22-Dec-99 15:52:23 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: chris@os2ezine.com (Chris Wenham) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 02:41:45, Jason <malstrom@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote: > > And don't forget Modula brought to market a product. Which was my point, > several good products were available after Colorworks left. But by then, > IBM had lost so much interest in OS/2 that they didn't have the desire to > get the word out to the people that OS/2 was running fine and that there > were a lot of great products for it. "Stepping up" to replace ColorWorks at about the time it disappeared (June 30, 1997): Dadaware's Embellish, which is now dead. It's best redeeming feature was good anti-aliasing and decent control of objects. Modular Dreams Inc's SX Paint, the one you mentioned, was never ever usable. What was released could have only been considered pre-Alpha quality. It had a learning curve steeper than a equilateral triangle and bugs that made it impossible to operate. It also had zero documentation. Modular Dreams' web site (www.modulardreams.com) has not listed any activity for the year of 1999, so it may be dead, too. TrueSpectra's Photo>Graphics, now defunct as well, was a different type of graphics software. Do not confuse it with PhotoShop, ColorWorks or Embellish. It was not designed to do the same jobs. ImpOS/2 was defunct before ColorWorks made its exit. Later there came PhotoTiger, which is a toy but still being maintained. And finally, GIMP - which outclasses ColorWorks by orders of magnitude but has to run in an X Window session (not much of a loss since ColorWorks barely acknowledged the OS/2 desktop's existance either). I think the quickest way to get a professional grade paint and photo application onto the OS/2 desktop is to write a seamless X Window driver, or contribute to EverBlue :-) Regards, Chris Wenham - editor@os2ezine.com The views expressed are mine. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: OS/2 e-Zine! (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: chris@os2ezine.com 22-Dec-99 16:00:07 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: chris@os2ezine.com (Chris Wenham) On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 02:37:37, "David T. Johnson" <djohnson@isomedia.com> wrote: > There is also a program called Photo Tiger. Photo Tiger is, at best, a Fisher Price paint program. It compares to ColorWorks the way a Barbie Camera compares to a Minolta. Regards, Chris Wenham - editor@os2ezine.com The views expressed are mine. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: OS/2 e-Zine! (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: sbritton@cadvision.com 22-Dec-99 09:01:02 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: Who runs this country? From: "Steven C. Britton" <sbritton@cadvision.com> Siobhan Medeiros wrote: > > In other third-world countries, union organizers tend to...disappear. Not in the one I live in... the government here encourages it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- What have YOU done to bust a union today? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Work better: Work union-free. Steven C. Britton Calgary www.cadvision.com/sbritton --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: CADVision Development Corporation (http://www.cad (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: veit@simi.gmd.de 22-Dec-99 16:05:11 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: veit@simi.gmd.de (Holger Veit) On 22 Dec 1999 15:43:12 GMT, uno@40th.com <uno@40th.com> wrote: [...] >>Why should I change to an inferior system like Windows? Just because everyone > >First, it's not inferior. If anything, NT is Warp 5 and then some. NT was, is, and will never be a Warp 5. The day Dave Cutler left, and M$ overtook control and garbled the concepts for the pure reason to cope with the lousy performance, it became inferior. >Second, if you're not into buying canned apps, then maybe it's not >all that more useful than OS2, but for me (and 99% of the rest of >the world) it is the apps (stupid!). > >>else eats shit? BTW, my collection of OS skills does also comprise several >>versions of Unix, several small embedded systems and, historically, also >>certain DEC stuff. I don't need colorful lowend garbage to live and work. > >All dead just like the dinosaur. You and OS2 fit together (but I Interestingly, the DEC/VMS and other systems did and still do work in high reliability areas, where I wouldn't even spend a single second of thought to consider NT as a potential candidate for the list of potential candidates. If M$ wants to offer Win2000 for mission critical stuff, they surely mean computer-controlled toilet flushs or alike (although I'd better also add a manual flush lever there). >still think you'd rather be using something else, something that >won't waste your future efforts -- I mean, what are you doing in >.advocacy, the newsgroup for losers and those that pick on them?). Well, then what are you doing here, other than uttering flames and insults? You want to demonstrate, as a loser, in a newsgroup for losers, (and I trust your judgement to be a loser yourself fully - given the garbage you advocate for), that your presence here is essential? Thanks, Sir, no more questions. Holger -- "Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: GMD-AiS (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: letoured@nospam.net 22-Dec-99 11:12:26 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: letoured@nospam.net Christian Gustafson" <christian.g@ibm.net> said: >>> > I first learned about the free Solaris OS kits here in COOA, so I >> > thought it appropriate to post the link to the MS offer. An excellent >> >> You were fucking wrong you rude bastard. >You're a class act, Bob. Well Christian you are rude. What the hell makes you think people in an OS2 list would be the least bit interested on your M$ drivel? _____________ Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net> --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: uno@40th.com 22-Dec-99 16:20:20 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com) Holger Veit? (veit@simi.gmd.de?) wrote (22 Dec 1999 16:05:22 GMT): >Well, then what are you doing here, other than uttering flames and insults? And what part of that don't you get? Besides, "uttering flames and insults"? How about "telling it like it is", instead. Anyway, Veit, you're the one that routinely hurls insults. And can calling someone living in the past a dinosaur really be an insult? Seems like a perfect fit to me. >You want to demonstrate, as a loser, in a newsgroup for losers, >(and I trust your judgement to be a loser yourself fully - given the >garbage you advocate for), that your presence here is essential? Essential only to the point that there are so few left in os2.advocacy these days. Where'd all the OS2 advocates go? No need to answer -- you know, I know, everyone knows. >Thanks, Sir, no more questions. You've folding? Already? The truth hurts, but face it, OS2 is dead and that's all this NG is really about. There's nothing you, nor I, nor anyone, can do to ever change that. Sad, but true -- and nothing else matter, my friend (of misery). --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Yanaguana (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com 22-Dec-99 11:50:16 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: Brad BARCLAY <bbarclay@ca.ibm.com> Trancser wrote: > That SOUNDS like somethin' good, but since I'm not sure WHAT EXACTLY that > would come in handy with, I have to ask :) > > How does that help OS/2? > > btw, that 3Gb, that IS 3 Gigabytes, right? Yes, that's 3 Gigabytes :). OS/2, in all current versions, can address a full 4Gb of memory. However, previous to WSEB (with the notable exception of WARP Server Advanced), all versions of OS/2 only allowed a maximum of 512Mb of address space per process. Admittedly, few applications actually allocate this much memory anywhere, but there are a few high-end apps which might desire to do this (servers, DBMS's, etc.) for speed purposes. WSEB raises the bar significantly for such applications. It also means that certain Microsoft applications which purposefully try to load themselves into high virtual address locations (such as Office) may now potentially be convertable and runnable under OS/2 through third-party tools and applications (such as Project Odin). The 32 bit IFS removes many of the limitations on the old 16 bit IFS. The two most important benifits are an increased address space for filesystem drivers, and the ability to run pure 32 bit code. The first allows for cache sizes much larger than the old 2Mb limit. The second means that the kernel doesn't need to thunk between 16 and 32 bit modes when doing filesystem access, making the transfer of data more efficient. (Note that in the second case, most average users won't see a huge difference. OS/2's kernel thunking between 16 and 32 bit modes is already extremely efficient. The constraining factor in filesystem IO is generally the media seek and read times, which are orders of magnitude slower than your systems ability to process instructions. But anyone with a RAID array, or sufficiently fast SCSI hard disks and a high level of activity will probably notice that their filesystem access is smoother - if they're using a 32 bit IFS like JFS). Brad BARCLAY =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Posted from the OS/2 WARP v4.5 desktop of Brad BARCLAY. E-Mail: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com Location: 2G43D@Torolabs --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IBM Toronto Labs, DB2 for OS/2 Install Developer (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jedi@dementia.mishnet 22-Dec-99 16:55:27 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: jedi@dementia.mishnet () On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 17:22:39 -0800, Chad Mulligan <cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: ><jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message >news:slrn85vkv0.mtv.jedi@localhost.localdomain... >> On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:44:19 -0800, Chad Mulligan ><cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: >> > >> ><jedi@dementia.mishnet> wrote in message >> >news:slrn85tao9.1q8.jedi@localhost.localdomain... >> >> On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:57:25 -0800, Chad Mulligan >> ><cmulligan@hipcrime.vocab.org> wrote: >> >> > >> ><TRIMMED> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >Wrongo boyo. The net itself is just as redundant and fault tolerant as >it >> >> >always was. If the dial up points of presence you use aren't as >reliable >> >as >> >> >> >> In that case, it's never lived up to it's hype. >> >> >> >> >always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. >> >> >> >> Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced >> >> to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved >> >> with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust >> >> wrt personal availability? >> >> >> > >> >Well the end users that are part of my customer base don't have these >> >difficulties. We actually take steps to anticipate their problems before >> >they occur. >> >> That's fine for your little infintesimal corner of the net >> but pretty much meaningless for the rest of it. > >Actually we aren't an infinitesimal corner of the net, we are part of the >backbone. That would certainly explain some of my connectivity issues... -- One of the great lies of our age is the myth that Microsoft has somehow managed to turn these random collections of spare parts known as PC clones into ||| the equivalent of a Macintosh. / | \ Searching for sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jedi@dementia.mishnet 22-Dec-99 16:59:07 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:22 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: jedi@dementia.mishnet () On 22 Dec 1999 09:05:19 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: >On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 19:29:00, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: > >|On 21 Dec 1999 06:29:28 GMT, BobO <osbo082@ibm.net> wrote: >|>On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:19:56, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: >|> >|>|>always, or the access to the net isn't there, you need a new ISP. >|>| >|>| Are you actually expecting mere END USERS to be forced >|>| to actually be aware of all the quality issues involved >|>| with ensuring that their 'online applications' are robust >|>| wrt personal availability? >|> >|>Actually, I think he is recommending that if and only if the END USERS >|>in your organization are without any professional support. >| >| A 'new ISP' won't do. You have to basically 'be your own ISP'. >| That makes the situation more complicated and increases overhead. >| It's also a level of reliability you wouldn't tolerate for your >| other criticial network (phone). > >Its is completely clear you have never tried the services that ibm >recently sold to AT&T. > >My reliability calculations is that this net over the past 4 years has >had a 99.99% reliability/availability in the 4 years I have used the I don't really give a damn about YOUR reliability calculations. It doesn't do a damn bit of good for my customers. >service. This level of reliability was something on the order of 200 >times the reliability of the local NT network, I experienced, that we >used at my previous place of employment. > >Don't know where you have been looking but it is obviously in the >wrong places. This seems to be much like the NT roasts. Dissenter: Hey man, it crashes and burns. Shill: No, it's just in your mind or you're not using it right. I never have any problems. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: huffd@nls.net 22-Dec-99 17:29:03 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:23 Subj: Did BillG buy ad space here?? From: "David D. Huff Jr." <huffd@nls.net> There are more people selling M$ opportunities than debating issues. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com 22-Dec-99 12:49:04 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:23 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: Brad BARCLAY <bbarclay@ca.ibm.com> "uno@40th.com" wrote: > >The failure of OS/2 PPC has nothing to do whatsoever > >with the amount of assembler in OS/2 x86. The PPC kernel didn't share > > It has to do with the way OS2 was written, and assembly was > the basis of OS2 1.x, and 2.0 didn't change that much. OS2 > is tied to x86, thanks to assembly. NT is/was running on > lots of CPUs. OS2 just x86 -- all it ever will run on. You forgot to mention that OS/2 is orders of magnitude faster and more memory efficient on x85 because of assembly than NT is on any platform. Your lack of knowledge in large scale programming shows. In a project with as much of a codebase as OS/2, the pure assembly parts are relatively few. So long as the interfaces on assembly parts conform to what the HLL code expects to interface with, these can be rewritten and replaced. Such development efforts are undertaken all the time, and by doing so you achieve near-maximal efficiency and memory usage. > So you say. I'd think most programmers would rather read and code > in C than assembly, esp MIPS. I won't go into the obvious reasons > since you should already know them. Check out VAX assembly. It's nearly a work of art. > As soon as your drop into assembly for the "if needed" things, you > really just sign your own fate away. Death follows, or at least a > dead-end. I enjoy writing code once and compiling it for a half- > dozen different CPUs without doing anything different, source-wise. Okay then - find any scientific, NP-complete or NP-hard problem. My assembly solution will be orders of magnitude faster and more efficient than yours will be in any language. > First, it's not inferior. If anything, NT is Warp 5 and then some. > Second, if you're not into buying canned apps, then maybe it's not > all that more useful than OS2, but for me (and 99% of the rest of > the world) it is the apps (stupid!). Your ignorance continues to show. First, there is no WARP 5. There is a WARP Server for e-business, which reports itself as version 4.5, but there is no v5. Secondly, I have yet to see a version of NT which supports 3Gb per-process addressing space, supports partitions up to 4Tb in size, and which can efficiently scale to 64 CPU SMP. > All dead just like the dinosaur. You and OS2 fit together (but I > still think you'd rather be using something else, something that > won't waste your future efforts -- I mean, what are you doing in > .advocacy, the newsgroup for losers and those that pick on them?). Well, if you don't want the computer scientists here to pick on you, then you should leave. Brad BARCLAY =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Posted from the OS/2 WARP v4.5 desktop of Brad BARCLAY. E-Mail: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com Location: 2G43D@Torolabs --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IBM Toronto Labs, DB2 for OS/2 Install Developer (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com 22-Dec-99 13:04:25 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:23 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: Brad BARCLAY <bbarclay@ca.ibm.com> Marty wrote: > Depends on what the code in question is doing. If it is IO bound code, like > those communicating with a hard disk drive, it makes very little difference. > If it is code for display drivers or something which needs to manipulate large > amounts of data as quickly as possible it can give a nearly 2x performance > boost. Or even faster. If the numerical data you're attempting to "crunch" does not fit inside a 16 bit value, then you're going to wind up running several instructions to fit the solution into a suitable width, where you might only have to run one or two instructions (assuming the values in question fit into a 32 bit register). However, if the values in questions do fit into a 16 bit register, and the solution fits into a 16 bit register, there is no performence gain when manipulating these values. To be very basic, adding 5+3=8 is no faster if you store the values in 32 bit registers and use a 32 bit adder on them then it would be to do the same addition in 16 bit registers with a 16 bit adder. However, adding 2^25 + 2^18 (neither of which fit into a 16 bit value, hence their sum also won't fit into a 16 bit value) would be significantly more efficient as 32 bit values in 32 bit code than it would be to compute and store the same solution in 16 bit code. Brad BARCLAY =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Posted from the OS/2 WARP v4.5 desktop of Brad BARCLAY. E-Mail: bbarclay@ca.ibm.com Location: 2G43D@Torolabs --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IBM Toronto Labs, DB2 for OS/2 Install Developer (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: KevH@yorkie.dabsolLL.co.uk 22-Dec-99 18:16:07 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:23 Subj: Re: which soundcard to buy? From: KevH@yorkie.dabsolLL.co.uk John, :> > I'd appreciate your recommendations. This is what I'd like to get :> > from a soundcard: :> > --COMES WITH OS/2 DEVICE DRIVER. :> Aureal :> Makers of PCI audio chips with native OS/2 support. Their 8820 A3D :> chip is used in cards by Xitel, Turtle Beach, Diamond and others. :> NOTE: Aureal claim these are reference drivers only -- you should :> contact your card manufacturer for specific drivers. I have a Aureal chipped, AU8830A2, soundcard (VideoLogic SonicVortex2) but no OS/2 specific drivers. I doubt if this card will be much use for any OS/2 systems I do as VideoLogic have stated that they no longer will support this platform. A rethink is is order. Whilst VideoLogic have produced soundcards with the earlier Aureal chips the tech support have stated that none of these came with OS/2 drivers either. It seems that I should strike this producer of the list unless anyone can provide any info on config/driver issues/locacation. Terratec used to provide soundcards with OS/2 drivers, I believe, but have not seen anything of them for about a year. Have they been forced to leave the scene? The other areas are as you say; look for a Crystal chipped, ESS chipped card that a manufacturer is supporting for the OS/2 platform. Can anyone supply a few names or leads for me to follow-up? From a soundless Kevin --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: KevH@yorkie.dabsolLL.co.uk 22-Dec-99 18:13:19 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:23 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: KevH@yorkie.dabsolLL.co.uk Right! Seems that this is one to erase from the list of possible choices for obtaining some native apps. Thanks to everyone for their input/views. It is quite a journey for me, a new user, obtaining info on residual app availability and what they do. More of a problem, though, is tracking down a supplier. Anyway, enough of my problems Doc. What do you use in place of ColorWorks? What type of app is Embellish? Regards, Kevin --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: chris@os2ezine.com 22-Dec-99 18:51:16 To: All 22-Dec-99 22:52:23 Subj: Re: Tell me the story From: chris@os2ezine.com (Chris Wenham) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:47:17, uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com) wrote: > > So, you've discovered the 100-second minute? Oops. 15 seconds, then. Regards, Chris Wenham - editor@os2ezine.com The views expressed are mine. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: OS/2 e-Zine! (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu 23-Dec-99 04:48:18 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451536 From: tholenantispam@hawaii.edu (Dave Tholen) Today's Amodeo digest: 1> At least there are more people debating issues than "debating" Tholen for a 1> change. You make it sound as if those are mutually exclusive sets, Marty. It's also a rather ironic remark, considering how you've engaged in "debates" with me, despite having allegedly put me in your killfile. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: IFA B-111 (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 23-Dec-99 00:14:25 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: Amodeo digest, volume 2451536 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Dave Tholen wrote: > > Today's Amodeo digest: > > 1> At least there are more people debating issues than "debating" Tholen for a > 1> change. > > You make it sound as if those are mutually exclusive sets, Marty. How I "make it sound" is irrelevant. Your unwarranted inference is also irrelevant. > It's also a rather ironic remark, considering how you've engaged in > "debates" with me, On what basis do you make this claim? You referred to our dialogs as an infantile game. Do make up your mind. > despite having allegedly put me in your killfile. You were in my message filters. You made the incorrect inference that you would remain there indefinitely. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mirage@iae.nl 23-Dec-99 06:16:24 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: Did BillG buy ad space here?? From: Mirage Media <mirage@iae.nl> Bill's butt-boys like to cruise here with their betters.....makes them feel more intelligent. Corey Mirage Media Nuenen, The Netherlands "David D. Huff Jr." wrote: > > There are more people selling M$ opportunities than debating issues. --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Internet Access Eindhoven, the Netherlands (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: pmacintyre@home.com 23-Dec-99 05:36:28 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: ipt? From: "Phil MacIntyre" <pmacintyre@home.com> What is nn? Never heard of it before. Phil Hansang Bae <hbae@primenet.com.REMOVE> wrote in message news:83ppnu$ojd$1@nnrp02.primenet.com... > Jim Moseby <jim.moseby@texfiblends.com> writes: > >If you have javascript enabled for mail and newsgroups, they can send a > >message that will open your browser and take you to wherever they want > >you to go. In Netscape, click Edit/Preferences/Advanced and uncheck > >'Enable Javascript for mail and news...'. > > > Or you can use a command line newsreader like nn! > > I've tried Agent, Outlook, NetScape, velocity <?> and none of them can > provide what nn provides. SPEED and absolute control. > > > *********** Remove the REMOVE if emailing me directly ************** > Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to > reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead. > ******************************************************************** > Hansang Bae Director of Network Operations, Eastern Region > hbae@richeysystems.com Reg. Office: (718) 352-9021 > Specializing in Network Design/Troubleshooting and Protocol Analysis > ******************************************************************** --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: @Home Network Member (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 22-Dec-99 23:51:01 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> > >There are several reasons: there is probably nothing in the world that >is so conservative than IBM, maybe with the exceptions of the catholic >church, so modifying the foundations of an existing kernel without >real demands from a top100 customer is not their thing. >There is also the technical reason that the memory overcommit strategy >here results in severe problems on systems that are typically low on >resources. It is much more safe for an ATM under OS/2 to fail with a >message "cannot run more processes because there is no more memory or >swap space" than just begin some transaction and fail within under >uncertain conditions and with in unsafe state. You likely know the >prominent error message of M$ Word "Cannot save document. Press F1 to >save your document and exit". If you run out of swap space in OS/2, >you get a textmode box with a warning: you can ignore it and will >find out about the consequences or terminate this or another application >in order to provide more resources. In Linux, the system will simply >stop (you won't see it normally, as one rarely runs the system into full >load). > I dont know about that. I was running out of swap room a lot even in Linux, but I was able to regain memory by quiting applications that were monopolizing the memory needed. As far as the system stopping cold turkey w/o any error messages is not entirely true (at least not with recent kernels), IF the system is unable to allocate the required memory the program is requesting, it will at least give a "The system was unable to allocate <number of bytes> bytes of virtual memory" (it goes something like that, I havent been in Linux in a quite a while to remember right now :), OR (if its a gui prog) it will blantely stop and be pulled from the desktop entirely, seemingly w/o any warrent for such an action, but this is not true - if you look in the '/var/log/ -messages' you are likely to find some possible explaination (maybe a page or segmentation fault). But I kinda wish it was like that in OS/2 as well, especially with gui programs that alone would prevent a lot of crashing ...or should anyway. OS/2 DOES seem to be able to do that with DOS programs and command line-based OS/2 programs. But something thats really swapping heavy (netscape? voicetype?) might cause the system to trap (sometimes if you run out of disk space on the swap drive - thats happened to me before :) > >OS/2 4.0 does much more below the surface than 2.0. 4.0 has much more >WPS classes around (compare Warp Center stuff with OS/2's taskbar), >has the network (IBMCOM/MPTN/TCPIP) integrated, has memory pigs like >Netscape and Voicetype which require there share. Yet, Aurora runs on my >Notebook with 32 MB RAM reasonably, as long as I don't attempt to >compile XFree86 in the background. > Hmm...is the networking (ibmcom/mptn/tcpip) stuff technically "integrated"? I mean, today, normally it gets installed because naturally anyone wants an internet-ready system. But unlike Linux, OS/2's networking is additional set of drivers for config system, along with a heavty amount of dll's, which already compromise some disk space, and then finally you have the actual basic set of internet programs (ftp, telnet, gopher and some additional misc. net programs). but before you can install or use this (tcpip) OS/2 needs the Multi Protocol and Transport Services package, which is additional drivers compromising memory and disk space again :) but I guess where the disk space thats required for this comes in, I'm guessing is for the gui configuration program for these services. Linux, on the other hand, has (or can have) most of the internet drivers built-into the kernel. Now I CAN think of ONE possible inconvenience with this method, and that would be, that upgrading / installing more recent and possibly improved network support in general would probably mean a complete recompile of the kernel all together. Whereas one using OS/2 would only need to replace the current set of drivers that are loaded with the config.sys file. > >OS/2 was not primarily made to run any different file formats, and >both ELF and a.out formats are reasonably primitive, compared to >NE/LX/PE(=COFF) formats to retain backward compatibility. a.out >was the equivalent of DOS COM files, later became a container for >the standard segments .text, .data, and .bss . This came from a >pure 16 bit system (PDP-11) and there needn't be any provision >for 16 vs 32 bit hybride code, having become popular with the >286/386s. > Mmmm... but should this have an impact on efficiant memory managment? Linux can have additonal code added to be able to execute different binary types, while still maintaining execution speed, and fast memory (including swapper) managment! I think if OS/2 adopted this method, regardless of the disk space requirements, I dont see how anyone could possibly complain. Linux would become pretty much useless :) --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 22-Dec-99 23:56:00 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Loading LARGE files in PMView! From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> I've noticed PMView can actually trap a /2 system by trying to load images that require more memory (physical or virtual) than is available. Could this actually be a problem with PMView, or OS/2 itself (by not stopping when the swapper's ate all available disk space in virtual memory even)? This I've tried, while having no other programs loaded. Having 40megs of physcial memory, and 64meg swap file! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jbergman@ixc.ixc.net 23-Dec-99 00:13:06 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: how much of OS/2 is .... From: "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> >> >>Sorry, does that mean that (now) hpfs386 (for /2) is now M$ free? > >No. The real stupidity, American greed has produced, is software patents. >You don't need a single line of code from M$, but still may have an >entirely polluted product. > Eek, anyone find this comforting. Knowing that M$ code could (or is) contained w/in the hpfs386 driver? Damn. cant IBM just jazz up the current hpfs support that comes with all versions of OS/2. >>If 16-bit is known as "real mode" (it takes what it needs w/o asking the OS, > >No. 16 bit in the kernel is 16 bit protected mode code; with the few >exceptions of the DOS emulation engine that's part of the kernel, which >jump between VPM and V86 mode. > >>if I recall right?) and 32-bit is "protect mode" (it requests whatever >>resources it needs from the OS) would it not be better to have everything in >>32-bit mode, so that the OS itself handles all the memory managment, and > >You can't have everything in 32 bit code, unless you give up compatibility >with legacy software, for instance also old 1.x device drivers. With OS/2 PPC, >these old customs were cut away, so this version should be pretty purely >32 bit only. Infact, the memory management stuff is 32 bit code. > Wouldnt it work, if instead of polluting the kernel with 16-bit compatability, instead have a driver loading in the config.sys file so 'rem' out 16-bit comp. mode if you wanted to? >>whatever else the program(s) need? Or am I missing the concept between user >>programs, and drivers etc? > >Holger > >-- >"Well, from what I've read, scientific studies show men tend to be better at >dealing with visual concepts, while women are better at complex linguistic >communication." - "You mean..." - "Men are from MACs, women are from VMS" > Erwin the AI, www.userfriendly.org --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 23-Dec-99 01:15:00 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: Loading LARGE files in PMView! From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> Trancser wrote: > > I've noticed PMView can actually trap a /2 system by trying to load images > that require more memory (physical or virtual) than is available. Could this > actually be a problem with PMView, or OS/2 itself (by not stopping when the > swapper's ate all available disk space in virtual memory even)? > > This I've tried, while having no other programs loaded. Having 40megs of > physcial memory, and 64meg swap file! So where did you come up with a 104MB picture file? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca 23-Dec-99 06:49:02 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 05:38:27, "Trancser" <jbergman@ixc.ixc.net> wrote: Ω> ΩI would just like to be able to see swapping speed in OS/2 Ωsimular to Linux's, or at least were you DONT NEED to have Ωan insanely fast (and expensive?) harddrive for being able Ωto swap at a reasonable speed (news readers can REALLY Ωjack up ones swap file in EITHER linux or os2, but linux Ωjust seems to be able to empty out from the swap file what Ωwhatever program's data that was created your using. OS/2 Ωtakes a li'l while longer - and with plenty of disk activity). I've Ωsaid this before, but I really do like OS/2, and really would ΩLOVE to see that type of performance, on a poor mans system! Try this. I used to think the swapper in warp sucked, until I set the initial size of the swap file way up high (around 80 MB on my 64 MB RAM machine). You set this with the SWAPPATH statement in the config.sys; type HELP SWAPPATH at the command line to see the help on it. The thing that slows it down is growing and shrinking the swap file, not actually using it. I have a lot of sofware running all the time so you may not need a swap file that large. Basically, my system is always in swap, but I rarely ever notice it. When my initial swap size is set to 2 MB (the default) the system turns into a pig as the system makes the swap file larger when I open a program, and then shrinks it when I close it again. If the size remains constant, that use of the hard drive is avoided. The way to find a good initial size for the swap file is to load up all of your apps and use them a bit (some surfing in Netscape, open and edit a doc in StarOffice/Smartsuite, yadda yadda yadda) and then go check the size of the swapper.dat file in the \os2\system directory. Add about five or ten megs to it, and you're set. Linux does this automatically when you create your swap partition; since there is no need or even possibility of the swap partition changing size, allocating and deallocating sectors to virtual memory never occurs. Properly tuning your swap file makes a HUGE difference in overall system performance. We have to do it because of a design decision, but I can see understand that there are reasons why that particular decision was made... Oh yeah, SCSI helps a lot too; now that I've experienced SCSI, I can never go back to IDE devices:) Take it easy! Jack Troughton ICQ:7494149 http://jakesplace.dhs.org jack.troughton at videotron.ca jake at jakesplace.dhs.org Montr┌al PQ Canada --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca 23-Dec-99 07:02:28 To: All 23-Dec-99 03:21:22 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:47:06, cbass2112@my-deja.com wrote: ΩSomeone once said, "90% of everything is crap." I wish I knew who it Ωwas who said that. It certainly rings true with the code I have seen Ωover the years. Theodore Sturgeon. That's Sturgeon's Law your bandying about there, boy! :):):) Jack Troughton ICQ:7494149 http://jakesplace.dhs.org jack.troughton at videotron.ca jake at jakesplace.dhs.org Montr┌al PQ Canada --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca 23-Dec-99 07:13:03 To: All 23-Dec-99 05:15:02 Subj: Re: Using LXLite on OS/2 From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 06:02:23, Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> wrote: ΩEmpirically, OS/2 does seem to have a threshold of free memory that it tries Ωto maintain, and it employs the swap file while there is still some physical ΩRAM free. From here, that seems to be 512k... Jack Troughton ICQ:7494149 http://jakesplace.dhs.org jack.troughton at videotron.ca jake at jakesplace.dhs.org Montr┌al PQ Canada --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: letoured@nospam.net 23-Dec-99 04:42:20 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:27 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: letoured@nospam.net uno@40th.com (uno@40th.com) said: >Essential only to the point that there are so few left in >os2.advocacy these days. Where'd all the OS2 advocates go? >No need to answer -- you know, I know, everyone knows. No. They have just become quite because they learned it is impossible to have a conversation with the single-threaded brains driving M$ Munchkin assholes like you uno! _____________ Ed Letourneau <letoured@sover.net> --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: bCandid - Powering the world's discussions - http (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com 23-Dec-99 07:13:18 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:27 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Bob Germer <bobg.REMOVEME.@pics.com> On <3860DC9E.9ECBE414@stny.rr.com>, on 12/22/99 at 09:13 AM, Marty the Liar <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said: > How ironic, coming from a "rude bastard" who was also "fucking wrong" > and failed to admit it. You have not proven yourself truthful in my opinion. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: bobg@Pics.com Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12 MR/2 Ice 2.01 Registration Number 67 Aut Pax Aut Bellum ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jimf@frostbytes.com 23-Dec-99 07:51:04 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:27 Subj: Failure of portable OSs, and HLLs versus assembly From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> Holger Veit wrote: > You are talking shit. The failure of OS/2 PPC has nothing to do whatsoever > with the amount of assembler in OS/2 x86. The PPC kernel didn't share > much common code with the x86 kernel - it is a uKernel compared to the > monolithic x86 thing. PPC failed - likewise to NT/MIPS, NT/ALPHA and > NT/PPC for the single reason: presence (or precisely lack thereof) of > affordable and reasonably widespread hardware (besides software, but > the non-x86 NTs were WRT even less usable). That's nothing but a marketing > failure, no technical issue. OS/2 PPC failed for all kinds of reasons, including: - Various factions within IBM fought over who would get to build different subsystems, virtually halting development for over a year. This ensured that the product would be very late to market. - OS/2 PPC suffers from the same debilitating handicap that OS/2 does -- IBM. In order for a healthy hardware vendor market to develop the OS cannot be under the control of a single hardware vendor. To put it another way, someone like Compaq would be insane to tie their future to an OS that IBM, a major competitor, controls. - NT made it to the PPC platform two years before OS/2 PPC was in any way useful. IBM absolutely did not want to be beholden to Microsoft again on this new platform, so they simply delayed the release of the low-end platform (as opposed to the workstation, which was sold with AIX). This gave Intel more than enough opportunity to catch up in performance. As for NT's cross-platform failures, it's more than just marketing -- and it was quite deliberate. NT made it to x86, MIPS, PPC, and Alpha within 18 months of its release and there was a working port for SPARC v9 in that same timeframe. Clearly the product was technically capable of running cross-platform. Unfortunately there's the old software problem: without a hardware customer base for the software no one will build it, and without software no one will buy the hardware. But Microsoft's goal wasn't really to support multiple platforms, it was to ensure that they weren't SOL if the market jumped to something new. Remember, when they started with NT RISC was beating CISC silly in performance and there was every reason to believe that the market might dump Intel. They were scared to death of that possibility. On the other hand they didn't want to have any more versions of Windows out on the market than they could avoid -- every extra version causes segmentation of the software vendors, and segmentation destroys the network effect that made them a monopoly. It was important that they be able to respond to a shift in the hardware, but not important that they support multiple hardware platforms simultaneously. So when it became obvious that RISC wasn't going to unseat Intel any time soon they dropped everything else -- except Alpha. There's a story behind their extended support of Alpha, of course. You see, NT was built by a team led by Dave Cutler, who came from Digital. He left DEC when his project, Prism, was cancelled. Prism was a next-generation VMS, built using modern OS design principles including a microkernel. Sound familiar? Anyone familiar with VMS can see a lot of similarities between it and NT. The general assumption is that DEC simply built what he knew. But there was more to it than that. When he left Digital he took Prism with him. And that, my friends, was theft. So years go by and NT is finally released and Microsoft allows various hardware vendors, including DEC, to port it to their hardware. But DEC found that some of the source code was pretty familiar. In fact, that it was derived from code that DEC owned. Now, there are a few ways that DEC could handle this. One of them is that they could sue Microsoft for all they're worth, making them look really bad, and really benefitting no one since DEC wasn't going to do anything with Prism anyway. Or they could use that as a bargaining lever against Microsoft, and perhaps gain a significant advantage in this new NT marketplace. The deal they worked out was that they wouldn't tell anyone that the NT code was stolen in exchange for supporting the Alpha for at least ten years, or until DEC decided to let it go. This deal should sound familiar: it's pretty similar to the deal they worked out with Intel when they sold the Alpha chip fabs to them in order to settle a patent infringement issue regarding the Pentium. So NT supported Alpha until Compaq, who had bought DEC, decided that it just wasn't worth doing anymore. Compaq dropped support for it and one business day later so did Microsoft. Ahh, intrigue in the software industry. > >>actually was to avoid rewriting these assembler parts. It is BTW possible > >>to write readable assembler code - some of IBMs drivers from the DDK use > > > >Only by those who know x86 assembly, and the assembler syntax used. > >Look at MIPS or SHx assembly and you won't think they're anything It's perhaps worth noting that it's not all that easy to read most computer languages if you don't know them. It isn't all that hard to follow assembler if you know what you're doing, and it's not particularly hard to transfer that ability to new assembly languages (though there are always nuances). The reason not to use assembly isn't so much for its lack of understandability as a tendency to be error-prone. Brooks (who managed the IBM OS/360 project) makes the case for high level languages in the terrific _Mythical Man Month_: his claim is that the rate of mistakes is about the same no matter what you use, but that HLLs generate more basic instructions per programmer-written code statement than assembly so the effective error rate goes way down. He also surmised -- this is back in the early 1970s -- that optimizing compilers would make it possible for HLLs to be more efficient than raw assembly language. That has been true over long stretches for more than a decade now, though a good assembly programmer can usually beat a compiler for short stretches of code (on the order of a few hundred instructions). These facts have led to a big change in the way a lot of assembly code is written. Often you write it in a high-level language, debug it, and then take the compiler-generated code and improve it. This is much faster and much less error prone than writing it in assembly in general and tends to result in better code all around. > In C++, you even have more bonus stuff: operator overloading, hidden > constructor/destructor calling by intermediates, obscure template > instantiation...thanks, been there, done that. True! So many C++ constructs are abused that it isn't even funny, and there sure are a lot of things going on that aren't obvious. (Somebody should string up Stroustrup for the use of operator overloading in iostreams. That's a perfect example of how NOT to use the feature, and yet it's the standard....) jim --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Road Runner (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jimf@frostbytes.com 23-Dec-99 08:01:23 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:28 Subj: Re: FreeOS - project to Clone OS/2 From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> Brad BARCLAY wrote: > You forgot to mention that OS/2 is orders of magnitude faster and more > memory efficient on x85 because of assembly than NT is on any platform. "Orders of magnitude" is stretching things a lot, but ignoring that for a minute it's worth remembering that algorithms generally make more difference than implementation language. Notice, for instance, just how fast and capable Linux is despite being written almost 100% in C. The fact of the matter is that only a very small percentage -- usually under 5% -- of code is stressed hard enough to make the small efficiencies you may gain by writing in assembler worthwhile. > Secondly, I have yet to see a version of NT which supports 3Gb > per-process addressing space, supports partitions up to 4Tb in size, and > which can efficiently scale to 64 CPU SMP. While the scalability issues are worth noting, NT's address space limitations stem from hardware limitations of the MIPS platform rather than an inherent design problem. I believe that one of the recent service packs eliminated them from x86, but I never cared enough to verify it. As for large filesystems, that has never been a problem for NTFS. jim --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Road Runner (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jimf@frostbytes.com 23-Dec-99 08:13:17 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:28 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> Joseph wrote: > > I'm not sure of their current plans to support the 486SX and 5-volt Pentium-60 > > markets -- here's a real opportunity for OS/2 evangelists. > > This isn't a small market. Leaving behind these purchases, making customers buy a new PC is one of MS's biggest liabilities as a > wanna-be consumer company. > Ironically, MS could use OS/2 as a low end consumer OS. It's lean and powerful. Embedded into devices, it could do them well. At this point it's very nearly the same price to buy a new system, complete with Windows and some kind of bundled office suite, than to buy OS/2 with similar applications. As for embedding OS/2 into devices, there are leaner things to choose from, and most of them aren't locked to x86. jim --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Road Runner (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jmalloy@borg.com 23-Dec-99 08:13:27 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:28 Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451536^.99999999999999999 From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> Today's Tholen digest does little more than demonstrate the inanity of Tholen's ASSumptions. For example, he ASSumes that one cannot take out an entry into a killfile, but what do you expected of such a limited mind? The actual digest: [naw, nothing worth repeating!] Glad to have saved you some time! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: prather@exis.net 23-Dec-99 08:15:21 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:28 Subj: Re: which soundcard to buy? From: prather@exis.net (Jerry Prather) In message <NEWTNews.945915502.14116.yorkie@yorkie.dabsol.net> - KevH@yorkie.dabsolLL.co.uk writes: :>:> :>From a soundless Kevin :> Take a look at the AOpen AW230. It works in both OS/2 and WinOS2 and was a painless installation. Costs about $30 from Indelible Blue, so the price is right. Be soundless no more. <G> Jerry Prather prather@exis.net "Many religions are worth dying for; no religion is worth killing for." - Me (circa 1998) --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Exis Net Inc (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: jmalloy@borg.com 23-Dec-99 08:19:02 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:28 Subj: Re: Tholen digest, volume 2451534.439896^-0000000000001 From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@borg.com> Tholen writes: [stuff which, as usual, is "wrong"!] You're welcome! --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Origin Line 1 Goes Here (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: mamodeo@stny.rr.com 23-Dec-99 09:17:14 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:28 Subj: Re: In case you're interested in Windows2000 From: Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> "Sideshow Bob" Germer wrote: > > On <3860DC9E.9ECBE414@stny.rr.com>, on 12/22/99 at 09:13 AM, > Marty <mamodeo@stny.rr.com> said: > > > How ironic, coming from a "rude bastard" who was also "fucking wrong" > > and failed to admit it. > > You have not proven yourself truthful in my opinion. Your failure to examine the evidence is your problem, not mine. Meanwhile I have proven you to be both a "rude bastard" and "fucking wrong" on several issues. In addition, you've again failed to respond to my challenge: "Bob, I don't know everything about OS/2, but I'd wager that I know more about the guts of OS/2 than you do, and I'm prepared to prove it. You, on the other hand are content to meerly throw around baseless fairy tales and run away. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, given your brand of 'advocacy'." How long are you going to keep running away? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-boch... 23-Dec-99 16:11:28 To: All 23-Dec-99 14:39:28 Subj: Re: which soundcard to buy? Message sender: christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de From: Christian Hennecke <christian.hennecke@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> KevH@yorkie.dabsolLL.co.uk schrieb: > Terratec used to provide soundcards with OS/2 drivers, I > believe, but > have not seen anything of them for about a year. Have they been > forced > to leave the scene? They are still making very good cards, but no OS/2 drivers. The XLerate (not XLerate Pro!) has a Vortex 1 chip. They are also using ESS Solo-1 for their 128 i PCI soundcard. And some of the still available ISA cards (32/96, EWS64L/XL) have Crystal chips. Christian Hennecke -- Keep passing the open windows! ("The Hotel New Hampshire", John Irving) --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: not organized (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: osbo082@ibm.net 23-Dec-99 17:43:14 To: All 23-Dec-99 15:23:03 Subj: Re: I use _____ and I'm proud of it! I'm not ashamed of it either! (po From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:59:14, jedi@dementia.mishnet () said: |> |>My reliability calculations is that this net over the past 4 years has |>had a 99.99% reliability/availability in the 4 years I have used the | | I don't really give a damn about YOUR reliability calculations. | It doesn't do a damn bit of good for my customers. Perhaps I could help your customers. Email me your customer list and I will point them in the direction of a reliable ebusiness solution. |> |>Don't know where you have been looking but it is obviously in the |>wrong places. | | This seems to be much like the NT roasts. | | Dissenter: Hey man, it crashes and burns. | Shill: No, it's just in your mind or you're not | using it right. I never have any problems. Well see there you go again, confusing the reliability of a single product versus the reliability of a product class. Are you saying here, that your customers have no reliable operating system either? If you are not trying to make that case, your anecdotal story is apples and oranges and not worth the ether it was written on. If you are trying to make the case that there are no reliable operating systems, then the question becomes is there any reliable net, local or internet? --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & Ne (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From: hbae@primenet.com.REMOVE 23-Dec-99 18:02:05 To: All 23-Dec-99 15:23:03 Subj: ipt? From: Hansang Bae <hbae@primenet.com.REMOVE> "Phil MacIntyre" <pmacintyre@home.com> writes: >What is nn? Never heard of it before. I was going to eamil this since it's off topic, but I figured others would ask as well. But "nn" stands for "no news is good news" and is a Unix based reader. Comes with linux and other platforms. I believe the updated form is called "trn" (not the same as tin) but haven't used it yet. *********** Remove the REMOVE if emailing me directly ************** Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead. ******************************************************************** Hansang Bae Director of Network Operations, Eastern Region hbae@richeysystems.com Reg. Office: (718) 352-9021 Specializing in Network Design/Troubleshooting and Protocol Analysis ******************************************************************** --- WtrGate+ v0.93.p7 sn 165 * Origin: Usenet: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. (1:109/42) +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ +============================================================================+