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rea 5-10 nor ************ Topic 5 Sun Nov 18, 1990 D.BURR [Winterhawk] (Forwarded) Sub: Why are there no 'Standards' for C= Questioning the lack of 'standard' programming languages and utils. for C= computers. IBM has 'em, Apple has 'em, Amiga has 'em, why not us? 14 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 1 Mon Nov 19, 1990 D.BURR [Winterhawk] (Forwarded) This is something that has irked me COUNTLESS times while pursuing my programming education. Much of what I have learned has come through the use of programming texts coupled with my own experimentation. Now we all know that learning to program in ANY language requires some means of testing what you have read/been taught/whatever. For example, say you are trying to master the C programming language. You get a book on C and get to work with your compiler. Imagaine your surprise when you find out that the book is describing ANSI Standard C, while your Power C or Super C compiler is doing something else, and at best embracing only SOME of the features of the so- called 'standard'. I personally had a hell of a time just finding out that VOID does not exist in Power C! When you aren't familiar with the ins and outs of a language, that can be a big problem. My real gripe is that every langauge written for the C= series has, hiding somewhere in its manual, a little disclaimer stating that the program will not support the following 'standard' features/commands/structures etc. Why is that? They all say it cannot be done on an 8 bit system. I say BS If every other model of computer can embrace industry standards, so can ours. Otherwise how is one to learn ANYTHING on a C= computer? All the options are denied us, except Assembly. Thoughts, rebuttals? Dan ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 2 Mon Nov 19, 1990 D.RAY1 (Forwarded) Both Power C and Super C were implemented on the C= machines BEFORE the ANSI C standard was written. It would be unrealistic to imagine them complying with a standard that didn't exist at the time. I am a rank beginner in C programming, but from reading on the subject I gather that even the expensive compilers in the MS-DOS world often handle things in different ways with different compilers. I was even reading an article in a C specific magazine by the secretary of the ANSI C committee where he was discussing parts of the standard that ended up with a different meaning than intended by the committee. If they can't completely understand their own standard how do you think the authors of C compilers are going to correctly implement it? I guess my point is twofold; first the C compilers for the C= machines were written pre-ANSI and at that time in the absence of a "standard" the authors took liberties with the "C" language to implement it on the C 64 and C 128, second standards for computer languages are written by us humans, and since they are they are not perfect. It will probably take some time for the ANSI C committee to and the real working programmers who use C to really clarify the standard through interpretation and standard practices. And as a footnote, isn't the lack of standards in the C= world really the result of lack of interest and support by Commodore once the machines were out the door? ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 3 Mon Nov 19, 1990 D.BURR [Winterhawk] (Forwarded) I agree with much of what you are saying D.Ray, but my point was not made as clearly as it should have been. When I said 'lack of standard features' I meant things that are considered 'standard' in more than the ANSI sense of the word. For instance, almost all compilers (Pascal, C, whatever) come with a library of functions. One of these is always a graphics library. Do you see a graphics lib. for Power C? Nope. Super C? Yes, sort of...A lib. that only works in ONE graphics mode, ignoring all others. Useful, eh? Super Pascal offers a library as well, even allowing 80 column graphics, but no color, no circle routines, etc...If you want any features that are provided by other compilers for other computers, you better know how to write them yourself! THAT is what ticks me off. I hate re-inventing the wheel to do some simple task. Oh, and what about prototyping? Nope. Bit fields? nope. I could go on, but you get my point. I am simply frustrated at how much more work I have to do to create a program for my 128 than I would if I were using a (gack) IBM, or a (Gag) Mac, or even a (DOUBLE GAG) Atari! And yes, I think C= itself is largely responsible for this failing. If they had supported the products more capably, rather than copping this 'We made the hardware, let 3rd parties handle the rest' attitude, then programming on a C= 8 bit would be much easier. This ease would mean that more programmers would be programming for it. Or would have been...Too late now though. Sigh Dan ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 4 Sun Jan 20, 1991 PETER-CPM (Forwarded) Lets not blame Commodore for the failings of the 'third parties'. You have to take into consideration the limitations of the machines..the 64 and 128 just don't have the memory available to support a full ANSI C. What does surprise me is that none of the available C packages available for native mode even follow the K&R 'standard! However in CP/M mode on the 128 there are several C compilers that conform to at least K&R. I can't really blame Commodore for this.. If you look at what's offered on the IBM and MAC platforms, you'll find that even they have similiar problems with what one developer has as opposed to another. Not even the MS DOS world can claim a true ANSI C compiler. Most all the computer manufacturers stay out of the realm of producing software for their machines. At most what they'll do is to make sure that the programs produced live up to certain standards pertaining to the use of the particular program in the Operating System (i.e. how it performs, not if it follows some other standard such as ANSI). If you feel that Power C and Super C don't live up to what they should be, you should be talking to whoever developed those programs and make your feelings known.... and not simply blaming Commodore. ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 5 Sun Jan 20, 1991 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) I have to second that! I don't blame a non standard C on either C= or Abacus. With a limit of 64K and a 1541 there is only so much that could be done when they were introduced. It would be nice to have a C that supports all the toys and such. But for software development on ANY 8 bitter you are better off writing it in ML, complied basic, or a combo of both. Though I am going to wet my hands again at C on the C128 for project I want to finish. JBEE (: ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 6 Sun Mar 03, 1991 S.MITCHELL19 (Forwarded) Why are there no "STANDARD" languages for CBM? Let me reply to that, if you don't mind. I have a C-128, an AT Clone and a Kaypro-10, so I am not presenting a _Single_ viewpoint. I first learned Basic on the 128, then ML, and then about the time I started learning C on the 128 (in CP/M) I got my Clone. When you say standard languages, I am not sure what you mean. ML, obviously is going to be different with every processor/hardware combination, so I asssume you are refering to "High-level" languages. Let's discuss Basic first. Since it comes with just about every computer, it's available on just about every machine. All versions of basic have a for-next loop, if/then constructs, etc. But every version has it's own peculiarities. Personally, I beleive Basic-7.0 in the C-128 is more advanced than GW-Basic on the IBM. An example of this is in their looping structures. Let me digress a minute...There are 5 kinds of loops: 1. Known number of iterations at start --eg. FOR/NEXT loops 2. Unknown number of iterations at start a. entry condition loops --eg. While/LOOP or DO WHILE/LOOP b. exit condition loops --eg. DO/LOOP UNTIL loops c. middle exit loops --eg. DO/LOOP w/IF/THEN/EXIT in middle. d. perpetual loop --eg. DO/LOOP loop with no exit condition The IBM GW-Basic has FOR/NEXT & WHILE/LOOPS only! The Amiga Basic has FOR/NEXT & WHILE/LOOPS only! The C-128 Basic has FOR/NEXT, DO WHILE/LOOPS, DO/LOOP UNTIL, & DO/LOOP W/IF-THEN IN THE MIDDLE--every type listed above! Funny thing is, the ANSI standard for Basics includes a DO/LOOP WHILE, but GW- basic doesn't. Maybe the IBM types should be complaining about not having a "standard" language. And that's just one example. There are others. Try to do a Block-save on an Amiga! Unless they've added it with the latest version of workbench, it doesn't exist. The Basic on the C-128 reflects state-of-the-art looping structures. (If we compare it with QuickBasic 4.5 a third-party product, we would have to compare Basic 7.0 with the addition of the Diamond Editor and a compiler.) Next Let's consider C. Ok, which one will we call standard? As anyone who has tried to convert an AztecC program to TurboC, (or any other brand of conversion) can tell you, it ain't easy! They only resemble each other! I have typed up examples meant for TurboC into QuickC and there were enough con- version differences that I couldn't learn anything about C itself in the process, which was what I was trying to do. So I gave up. Let me ask you again, Which C is the standard? If you say ANSI-C, I would have to agree that that is the _closest_ thing there is to a standard in the C world. When Ansi C was finalized, I bought a couple of books on straight-up ansi C, figuring it would all be downhill now. But to my consternation, Ansi-C only defines the MINUMUM library to be included with any C dialect. ALL of the compiler companies add there own extra functions into their libraries, including specific functions for specific hardware. If you say we should call only the common subset of ansi-C to be the standard, then you better forget doing any graphics! Better forget supporting a subdirectory structure, or device 8/9, or CP/M user areas, since they are all machine specific and cannot be codified into a universal standard! Pascal, which I am only passing familiar with, is said to insulate you from the machine hardware so you can concentrate on the logic of the program. Right. How many kinds of pascal are there? I don't know about you, but the 128's hardware is the biggest reason I selected it as my first computer! I WANT to get down and dirty with the hardware. The truth is, there is no standard language that goes between machines without some kind of changes. If you really want IBM type (non)standard languages, I suggest you turn to CP/M mode and start learning Power-C from MIX software. It will set you back $20.00. Here's how standard it is: I purchased both the IBM & CP/M versions from them. I wrote a program on my Clone, transferred it with Big Blue Reader to a CP/M disk, and it ran with NO MODIFICATIONS. Oh, I admit, it was a simple program that had user input, some calculations, and then it printed to the screen--no graphics, etc., but hey dude! it ran! Is that "standard" enough for you? I'm not being sarcastic, but I think what you really want is something other that standards, only you can tell what that is. Perhaps you just want "respect" for your (& my) favorite computer. I used to feel that way. No I have 3 computers and Doc, let the IBM-only weenies eat their hearts out! I _E_N_J_O_Y_ the cosmopolitan flavor of computing. PS. Aztec C also still makes versions of C for IBM & 128-CP/M too. PSS. JRT Pascal was made public domain after they stopped making CP/M versions & now make only IBM stuff. It's standard Pascal... :) PSSS. Forth is available for CP/M. It's standard, too... ;) I'd Love to hear from anybody on this subject, or 128 native or CP/M mode C... S.Mitchell19 *s ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 7 Sun Mar 03, 1991 J.COLLINS5 [GeojoeC] (Forwarded) Where can I get these versions of C, Pascal, Forth, and BASIC, that run under CP/M! I have been exploring higher languages but wanted to get something closer to the ANSI C Or Pascal! You seem toknow alot about languages on the 128. Maybe we can meet in Live Wire sometime and chat Mitchell. I do a little ML and wanted to make better use of C GeojoeC ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 8 Mon Mar 04, 1991 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) Well, I too got my C128 to get "down and dirty" :D As I master ML (I consider myself a coder, not a programmer) and I want to learn C on my C128. I realize it isn't a standard language per say how it is implemented, but it should be "good enough". Which is what I believe S.Micthell was getting across. No matter what machine you come across it's C and Basic and ML is going to be slightly different no matter where you go. One reason for wanting to learn Ml and C on my C128 is because in the near future I am buying a 68xxx machine (atari st and also a lynx) and I figure what I learn easily on my C128 (which i consider the ultimate 8 bit home computer) will prepare me for the tougher stuff. Since the 68xxx series is basically a much bigger 6502 vs learning something completely different with a 80xx series from Intel, for me this is the right "route". Either way I look forward to enjoying myself and my moNitor :D ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 9 Sun Mar 10, 1991 J.COLLINS5 [GeojoeC] (Forwarded) I've found "C" is a little better under CP/M than on the 8502 used in the C128! You may want to try that version of C if you want to go on to IBM or AMI/MAC! ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 10 Mon Mar 11, 1991 S.MITCHELL19 (Forwarded) Hello Joe! Gee, I didn't mean to sound like an expert at c-128 languages, I'm just another hacker. I probably shot my whole wad of knowledge in that one message. About those languages... MIX-C (actually called POWER-C) runs in CP/M. MIX Software 1132 Commerce Dr. Richardson, TX 75081 214-783-6001 For only $19.95 total price you get the program and a 650 page manual that gives examples of the use of every function! I have purchased 23 C language books ( I like to read-- <grin> ) and keep coming back to this one when I actually sit down to code something. In fact, my daughter (8) and I spent this afternoon butting our heads against different input functions in Mix-C to figure out when to use what...none of them suit me, so I'm going to take another look at that SuperInput-128 subroutine (basic) and convert some of it's features to what I'd like to see. I'll post it in a few weeks if I get anywhere. If you ever want to do anything on a clone, MIX's latest version for the IBM is ANSI compatable. CP/M version isn't, but since the code was written by the same guy, Tom Green I think, it crosses over better than most. Anyway, Other Languages... JRT Pascal -- This used to be a commercial program that whet IBM only and released all their cp/m stuff to the public domain about a year later. I have it, if you are interested. Of all languages, I don't like pascal, so have never used it. A friend who is taking Pascal in college said it looked pretty like standard pascal. How good his grasp of standard pascal is, I can't say. It requires 2 sides of a disk-- so you must have a 71 or 81 to run it, or copy both programs to ram-disk... I do have the manual, about 1/2" thick of photocopies. Anybody got a scanner? Forth- this language has always interested me because, like C, it is extensible, with each new fuction becoming a new command. It also uses the stack like HP calculators do, so I'm told. This is where to get it for about $3.00: Gil Cabral 4 terry lane Wareham, MA 02571 I ordered a bunch of CP/M stuff from him and got value for my money. there was a couple of databases, utilities, etc. He has about 70 CP/M disks-- including languages like prolog, several disks of lib's etc for turbo pascal V.3, though he doesn't offer the language. a language called Draco Systems--sort of C like. and lessee, a Small-C disk with a bunch of source programs...and...Oh, yes, BASIC! He offers Z-basic & C-basic on 1 disk --I purchased both of them, for around $3. One of them is interpreted and the other happens to be compiled. Mbasic might interest you more since it was written by Microsoft way back when, & it is as similar to Basic 7.0 as basic can be, given the very different environments. Mbasic came with my Kaypro. What else will you need? An editor. I generally use VDE25 on the Kaypro and VDE-c128 on the 128. Same program, someone just installed the second one for the C128. Both are available here on Genie. Also is an update called VDE266.lbr here too, I believe. Also several other editors, take your pick. I guess I'm assuming you don't have an editor and know little about CP/M already--my apologies if I'm assuing wrongly. One note about VDE. It will only edit files that can fit into memory all at once. That comes to about 40K or so. If you need to edit bigger files (highly unlikely at first) use good old WordStar. I never did like wordstar, but It's all I know that will allow you to edit a file as big as your storage medium. (most others make a temporary copy of the file on disk, and edit that-- limiting you to files half as big as your storage medium, assuming that the editor itself is somewhere else.) Sorry about the verbiage here, I don't know what will be the most useful to you. I also have a program that transfers from a C= disk to CP/M disk, while running in CP/M mode. (Also from Gill Cabral) Using it, you could do your typing in a native mode word processor, and then switch to CPM to do debugging, compiling, linking, etc. I used Fontmaster 128 for that a couple of times, then learned enough VDE commands to just do it there. But since I download on my Clone, a program like that, called IBM<>CPM (another $3 disk from Gil Cabral) comes in handy to get the stuff to CP/M format from there also. I got to say this--the c-128 is my main machine--but you should see CP/M run on my Kaypro-10! About 3 times faster I'd say. From Power-Up to a drive prompt is 3 seconds on mine (4 MHZ). Some guys have swapped chips and got theirs to run at 8 Mhz! The Kaypro-10 has a 10 Mb hard-drive which also adds to its speed. I'm only saying that, since I don't know you, and don't know if your first impress- ion of CP/M was like mine 2 years ago (ho-hum, so that's cp/m?) I just had never seen CP/M run like it was meant to. I got this Kaypro for $100 a couple of months ago, hard drive & all.. I didn't mean for this to sound like an ad for Gil Cabral's PD house. That's the only place I know of to get these programs. Hopefully, others here on Genie can round this out with other sources. I just remembered. there is a FOG (First Osborne Group) area on Genie. I think there is an annual fee to join FOG, but I bet they might have all this stuff too. If you run across any samples of C source code for the 128 (in any compiler) let me know! I don't care if they are as buggy as can be. I learn best by typing in examples and then tinkering. Steve Mitchell (S.Mitchell19) PS. your handle - GeoJoeC - that's pr!4_^ good! Hello Joe! Gee, I didn't mean to sound like an expert at c-128 languages, I'm just another hacker. I probably shot my whole wad of knowledge in that one message. About those languages... MIX-C (actually called POWER-C) runs in CP/M. MIX Software 1132 Commerce Dr. Richardson, TX 75081 214-783-6001 For only $19.95 total price you get the program and a 650 page manual that gives examples of the use of every function! I have purchased 23 C language books ( I like to read-- <grin> ) and keep coming back to this one when I actually sit down to code something. In fact, my daughter (8) and I spent this afternoon butting our heads against different input functions in Mix-C to figure out when to use what...none of them suit me, so I'm going to take another look at that SuperInput-128 subroutine (basic) and convert some of it's features to what I'd like to see. I'll post it in a few weeks if I get anywhere. If you ever want to do anything on a clone, MIX's latest version for the IBM is ANSI compatable. CP/M version isn't, but since the code was written by the same guy, Tom Green I think, it crosses over better than most. Anyway, Other Languages... JRT Pascal -- This used to be a commercial program that whet IBM only and released all their cp/m stuff to the public domain about a year later. I have it, if you are interested. Of all languages, I don't like pascal, so have never used it. A friend who is taking Pascal in college said it looked pretty like standard pascal. How good his grasp of standard pascal is, I can't say. It requires 2 sides of a disk-- so you must have a 71 or 81 to run it, or copy both programs to ram-disk... I do have the manual, about 1/2" thick of photocopies. Anybody got a scanner? Forth- this language has always interested me because, like C, it is extensible, with each new fuction becoming a new command. It also uses the stack like HP calculators do, so I'm told. This is where to get it for about $3.00: Gil Cabral 4 terry lane Wareham, MA 02571 I ordered a bunch of CP/M stuff from him and got value for my money. there was a couple of databases, utilities, etc. He has about 70 CP/M disks-- including languages like prolog, several disks of lib's etc for turbo pascal V.3, though he doesn't offer the language. a language called Draco Systems--sort of C like. and lessee, a Small-C disk with a bunch of source programs...and...Oh, yes, BASIC! He offers Z-basic & C-basic on 1 disk --I purchased both of them, for around $3. One of them is interpreted and the other happens to be compiled. Mbasic might interest you more since it was written by Microsoft way back when, & it is as similar to Basic 7.0 as basic can be, given the very different environments. Mbasic came with my Kaypro. What else will you need? An editor. I generally use VDE25 on the Kaypro and VDE-c128 on the 128. Same program, someone just installed the second one for the C128. Both are available here on Genie. Also is an update called VDE266.lbr here too, I believe. Also several other editors, take your pick. I guess I'm assuming you don't have an editor and know little about CP/M already--my apologies if I'm assuing wrongly. One note about VDE. It will only edit files that can fit into memory all at once. That comes to about 40K or so. If you need to edit bigger files (highly unlikely at first) use good old WordStar. I never did like wordstar, but It's all I know that will allow you to edit a file as big as your storage medium. (most others make a temporary copy of the file on disk, and edit that-- limiting you to files half as big as your storage medium, assuming that the editor itself is somewhere else.) Sorry about the verbiage here, I don't know what will be the most useful to you. I also have a program that transfers from a C= disk to CP/M disk, while running in CP/M mode. (Also from Gill Cabral) Using it, you could do your typing in a native mode word processor, and then switch to CPM to do debugging, compiling, linking, etc. I used Fontmaster 128 for that a couple of times, then learned enough VDE commands to just do it there. But since I download on my Clone, a program like that, called IBM<>CPM (another $3 disk from Gil Cabral) comes in handy to get the stuff to CP/M format from there also. I got to say this--the c-128 is my main machine--but you should see CP/M run on my Kaypro-10! About 3 times faster I'd say. From Power-Up to a drive prompt is 3 seconds on mine (4 MHZ). Some guys have swapped chips and got theirs to run at 8 Mhz! The Kaypro-10 has a 10 Mb hard-drive which also adds to its speed. I'm only saying that, since I don't know you, and don't know if your first impress- ion of CP/M was like mine 2 years ago (ho-hum, so that's cp/m?) I just had never seen CP/M run like it was meant to. I got this Kaypro for $100 a couple of months ago, hard drive & all.. I didn't mean for this to sound like an ad for Gil Cabral's PD house. That's the only place I know of to get these programs. Hopefully, others here on Genie can round this out with other sources. I just remembered. there is a FOG (First Osborne Group) area on Genie. I think there is an annual fee to join FOG, but I bet they might have all this stuff too. If you run across any samples of C source code for the 128 (in any compiler) let me know! I don't care if they are as buggy as can be. I learn best by typing in examples and then tinkering. Steve Mitchell (S.Mitchell19) PS. your handle - GeoJoeC - that's pretty good! ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 11 Mon Mar 11, 1991 S.MITCHELL19 (Forwarded) geez, what happened? somehow I doubled up that last message, repeated everything twice, sorry! ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 12 Mon Mar 11, 1991 C128-BILL [Bill] (Forwarded) If you would like to re-post your message, I'll see that the original one is cleared out, S.Mitchell19. No problem... sometimes it happens! ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 13 Sat Mar 16, 1991 J.COLLINS5 [GeojoeC] (Forwarded) Thanks for all the info! I'm working on a few Hardware hacks to increase the 128's memory to 256K, or more! I only recently got interested in CP/M and C. You already know more than me so to me you are an expert! I am kind of new to CP/M, I'll get into it even more when my native mode CP/M hardive software ships! I have a CMD HD 40. I also have a Northstar advantage that I got for free! I'm considering putting a Hard drive in it. Now if I could just get it to read soft sectored disks! Once I fugure out how to do E-Mail I'll send you my phone number, or if you'ld like you can send me yours. Thanks for the info! I buffered your message twice! So I have it 4 times! B) Ps, the Geo is for GEOS, and the C is for Collins! But I like my handle any way! Best, Joe! ------------ Category 5, Topic 5 Message 14 Sun Mar 24, 1991 S.MITCHELL19 (Forwarded) Hello Joe! I'll send you my address, etc. ini EMail. [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [D [C [C [C [C [C [C [C When you first sign on, I think you just go to the menu about GEmail & chat and follow the prompts to get to e mail. Or I _think_ you can just type an S by itself (& <cr>) at any genie prompt to send mail, same but R to read mail, but I'm not sure if that's at all menus or just some. I've heard that NorthStar Computers are pretty nice! & boy, the price was right on that one! Later! S.Mitchell19 ------------ ************ Topic 6 Wed Nov 28, 1990 E.DURKIN1 [Montana Kid] (Forwarded) Sub: <Pet Drive compatable with 1541?> At school we have a PET and a drive and I downloaded some of the CBM programs in the software librays (uploaded by ME) with my 64 and brought the disk to school and tried... Continued in first message :( 10 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 1 Wed Nov 28, 1990 E.DURKIN1 [Montana Kid] (Forwarded) ...Well anyway I bought the disk to school and tried to load the programs and they wouldnt load. I typed RUN and LIST and all I got was READY. I tried to run the 4032 program (in the software librarys) and that just put a bunch of garbage on the screen. The programs works fine and state that they would work on a PET as well. HELP If you wana look at these files search with E.Durkin1 THANX!!!!!! :'( HELP! )': ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 2 Wed Nov 28, 1990 VOYAGER-1 [Gary V] (Forwarded) That had me stumped for a bit too the first time I tried the same thing. The problem is that the PET computers load everything at the address that it was saved from. On a 64 the start of basic is at $0801 and on the PET series it is at $0400. So what is happening is that the programs have the 64 saved address and are loading in at $0801 on the PET. (oops I ment to say the start of PET basic is $0401, not $0400) The two ways to get arround this are to raise the start of basic on the PET before loading or to lower the start of basic on the 64, load the program & resave it at the lower address. I chose to do the latter. It was a bit more work, but I only had to do it once for each program rather than every time I wanted to run something on the PET. To do this you must first move the 64's screen memory to as high as it will go, lower the pointers to the start of basic and then do a NEW. I wrote a short & dirty program to do this and if you like, I can upload it here. There may be a utility program out there that will convert the files for you, but I haven't found one yet. Just writing a new start address to the file alone will not work. The Basic line pointers within the program also need to be adjusted. ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 3 Wed Dec 26, 1990 E.DURKIN1 [Montana Kid] (Forwarded) Sorry I took so long to reply.. I haven't been in here for a while. Quick and Dirty program hu? GREAT ! Is it in the software libraries yet? If not could you put it there? _`_ 0 0 ^ \_/ ThanX!!!! Montana Kid! ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 4 Thu Dec 27, 1990 VOYAGER-1 [Gary V] (Forwarded) Without any interest, I didn't upload it. Now that you have requested it, it will be there within a day or two. ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 5 Thu Dec 27, 1990 E.DURKIN1 [Montana Kid] (Forwarded) Sorry, I've been reading messages on this board,but it's been a while since I've done a BROuse! :/ M.K. ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 6 Wed Feb 13, 1991 E.DURKIN1 [Montana Kid] (Forwarded) I've been thinking and ... Could I use Maverick's GCR editor to change the load addresses and stuff? If so anybody wana take a guess at how to do this? -=<M.K.>=- ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 7 Wed Feb 13, 1991 VOYAGER-1 [Gary V] (Forwarded) Changing the load address is rather simple to do and an automated program to do so wouldn't take that much effort. The real work is in changing the Basic Line Links. First, the GCR editor would no be the correct utility to do this job. It's purpose is for fixing a corrupted disk or protection hacking. The tool to use would be the sector editor. You would have to find the starting sector for each file from the directory entry, go to the first sector of the file, change the start address, adjust every line link in that sector, continue the process with each sector of the file. IMHO, you are in for quite a bit of tedious work ( quite prone to mistakes ) and I would not reccomend doing it this way. I might have a bit of time in the next week to write something simple in basic that will auto-convert these files for you. BTW: I mailed that listing and map today. You should have it by early next week. gary ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 8 Fri Feb 15, 1991 E.DURKIN1 [Montana Kid] (Forwarded) _`_ O - \_/ Thanks Gary! ---===<M.K.>===--- ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 9 Fri Jul 12, 1991 R.FARQUHAR1 (Forwarded) Well, I've changed just the load address of a program and it's executed fine, maybe that's because I was running the relocated programs on 64s and 128s though. Here's a thought: Move the 64's screen memory to 32768 ($8000), and the start of Basic to 1025 ($0401) like it is on the PET. Load the program, then save it, and bingo, instant conversion (er, as close to instant as the '41 will allow). A program to reconfigure the 64 like that appeared in Mapping the 64. ------------ Category 5, Topic 6 Message 10 Sat Jul 13, 1991 VOYAGER-1 [Gary V] (Forwarded) The 64 and 128 operating systems ( as well as the +/4 ) are designed to allow for relocatable basic program loads and will automatically adjust the line link values as the file is being loaded. It does this on files that are not specified as absolute load with the ,1 command for the 64 or the BLOAD with the 128. The PET's do not have this feature as part of their operating system and everything is loaded as saved. The method of changing the memory arrangement on the 64 and re-saving the file is the way I reccomended earlyer in this thread. The short ( couple of lines ) program that I uploaded a while back does as you said - raises screen memory, drops the start of basic and resets the basic pointers to this new arrangement with a NEW command. This works great for a few conversions here and there, but I'm sure it would become tiresome if you had a hundred or so files to convert. Gary ------------ ************ Topic 7 Sat Dec 15, 1990 AMFORD (Forwarded) Sub: Text as PRG files. How do they get PRG files from text files? 9 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 1 Sat Dec 15, 1990 AMFORD (Forwarded) Had a friend call me up with this question: In word processors, ie. Write Stuff, save their text files as PRG files. How do they do it? Is there any conversion of character sets taking place? Can you use the word processor as a fancy editor? Hmmm, good questions, but I don't know the answers. Anyone want to give them a shot? ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 2 Sat Dec 15, 1990 VOYAGER-1 [Gary V] (Forwarded) Word processors such as TWS and Speedscript save the area of memory that contains the text. This would be the same as saving a ML file that was not at the start of basic. It would still list as a PRG file in the directory. (the first 2 bytes of the file are the load address, folowed by the data). In a SEQ file the first byte of the file is the first byte of data. This is a bit of speculation, but I think the purpose of these word processors working this way was to gain a bit of speed in loading and saving files. Also, these 2 word processors (and some others) store their information as screen codes rather than PETSCII or True ASCII. This method gives them added speed in editing. (also a reason why they are saved as PRG files - there isn't any conversion needed for saves and loads). Only when the text is sent to the printer, is the conversion to PETSCII done. I got the drift that you were thinking of trying to use one of these as a fancy basic editor. I'm afraid that it isn't practical. First because the data is just screen codes and second because there isn't any tokenization of the information. (what you see when you list or edit a Basic program is quite a bit different from the data that is actually in the computer. Line numbers are translated from 2 byte values, there are pointers to the next line that are not displayed, and the Basic Keywords are in a one byte code). Sorry to shoot down that idea. ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 3 Tue Dec 18, 1990 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) I know when saving or loading files from Paperclip III the seq files fly loading and saving compared to the PRG files using a 1581 or Jiffy Dos. I just wish PCiii used the seq files as the standard format so I wouldn't have to type the filename everytime I am finished editing a file. ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 4 Fri Dec 21, 1990 A.BERNHARDT (Forwarded) It doesn't really matter what type of file the data is stored in. The reason some word processors store text as PRG files is because they're using the Kernal ROM's SAVE routine, which saves a block of memory as a PRG file by default. This free's up a little more memory in the word processor because it doesn't have to have it's own load and save routines. It's using the Kernal ones. Aside from the file type, there is no real difference between SEQ and PRG files. The data in the file is dependant on what the word processor is sending to the drive when it saves the data. The file type has no bearing on the data. To prove this, try a little experiment with your word processor... If your word-processor saves files as PRG types, try adding a ",s" to the filename. Unless your word-processor internally adds the filetype to the filename when it opens the file for saving, adding a ",s" will override the default PRG type and save the file as a SEQ file. You can also try adding a ",u" to the end of the filename instead. This should save the file as a USR filetype. Again, the data in the file will be exactly the same as if you saved it without the ",s" or ",u". The filetype makes no difference. To load the file back into the word-processor, you must add the ",s" or ",u" to the filename also (usually). This is because the Kernal LOAD routine expects to load a PRG filetype. Adding ",s" or ",u" overrides the PRG default. This comes in handy in other areas. If, for example, you downloaded a file from your local BBS as a SEQ file, when it should have been a PRG file, all you need to do to load the file later is add a ",s" to the filename. For example: load "filename,s" ,8 ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 5 Wed Oct 16, 1991 R.FARQUHAR1 (Forwarded) This is an old topic, I realize, but there is one more advantage to using PRG files instead of SEQ files. The 1581 drive has an odd habit of "mixing" SEQ files, which I used to notice on Color 64 BBSs. For instance, you would be playing Nuke 'Em, and when you looked at the news file, it would look right, but stats for another game might sneak in. Apparantly, the 1581 occasionally has problems re-allocating scratched files or something when dealing with the SEQ filetype. The problem has never turned up in my personal use (though I do far less scratching of files, etc than a BBS does- a busy BBS will probably scratch and write more files in one night than I have in a lifetime). Just to be safe, I usually use PRG files all the time (except with PC III, because SEQ files are so much shorter and faster). Is this apparant bug present in JiffyDos-equipped 1581s as well? ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 6 Thu Oct 17, 1991 C128.JBEE [* Sysop *] (Forwarded) Well, I had heard this rumor more than once and didn't really believe it because it never happened to me. But it did at the worst moment building my new catalog. I was using PCiii with a almost full 1581 disk. I had been saving the files as PRG ASCII but then decided to save each page as Seq ASCII in case I wanted to read the files on another machine ten years from now. So, I saved the final versions back to disk with the scratch/replace and to my horror when I loaded some of them back in they were fritzed. Boy, I wish I had made backups before I did that. Wasted almost a whole day's worth of work. I was just wondering if it was the old save and replace bug popping back up or a bite or something. Supposely this seq bug was nuked in JD. At the time I don't think that drive had JD, though it did have the new controller. re:PCiii After reading the manual cover to cover I have never figured out how to save files as Seq files with the Control/S command and instead have used the Control/Z command. Any other way? I like Control/S because it saves it under the default filename. Maybe I missed something? ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 7 Thu Oct 17, 1991 VOYAGER-1 [Gary] (Forwarded) As I understand PCiii, when you use the Control/S command - it saves the information as a dump (in screen codes) of the entire memory area taken up by the document. You might be able to add a comma/s to the end of the filename, but, if this worked, it would still be the same memory dump - only the SEQ flag wi . About all that would do is to set the flag in the disk directory to SEQ instead of PRG. The actual inf would be the same and would have to be converted to ASCII to be used by another type of computer. The other thing that has me wondering is that I thought ( or at least it appears ) that PCiii scratches the old file and then saves the new one, bypassing the potential save and replace bug. ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 8 Fri Oct 18, 1991 C128.JBEE [* Sysop *] (Forwarded) It does! ------------ Category 5, Topic 7 Message 9 Sun Oct 20, 1991 H.HERMAN1 (Forwarded) JBEE, Let me put this to rest once and for all!!! With the 1571 and 1581 drives (with the proper upgrade Rom and controller) the `@save' works!! There is *NO* bug. It is fine!!! However.... (what would life be without howevers...) As I was saying, however, there must be disk space available to first write the new file to disk, after which the old file will be scratched. It is the responsibility of the user to see to it that there is sufficient disk space available. If there is it works just fine. If there isn't, then you will run into probs. I never use the `@save' with an almost full disk because of this. And, I use the `@save' a lot, and it always works for me. And.... If this does happen, from what I know of the `@save' there is a quick way out. First, list a directory to see if the original file is there. If not, unscratch it. THEN, do a collect. The original old file will be intact. Howie still REUless :P ------ rea 8-10 nor ************ Topic 8 Sat Dec 29, 1990 H.HERMAN1 (Forwarded) Sub: A useful CP/M hack. Has anyone considered... 12 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 1 Sat Dec 29, 1990 H.HERMAN1 (Forwarded) Referring to expansion of the C128's intenal RAM to 256K, William Wiese Jr., in his "Commodore 128 Programming Secrets" seems to suggest a new wrinkle to this. The machine's designers certainly had this possibility in mind, since the 128 is specifically designed to allow for this. (Or, was it always planned, and just a last minute desicion to limit RAM to 128K?) Either way, there would be limited benefit from this hack, at this time, certainly for the 128's native mode. Only custom written software could take advantage of it, and all the 'mature' 128's existing base of software wouldn't know it existed. However, Weise seems to suggest that this addition was really intended, in the first place, for use on the 128's CP/M side. This seems the most reasonable explanation, from hindsight. The CP/M side would be most likely to be used for business applications. Having two extra banks of memory addressable RAM could allow three major applications to be memory resident (instantly available at a keypress), and have access to, and share, all the data files residing in RAM bank 1. In addition to having access to a WP, spreadsheet and data base, often used maintenance utilities could also be tucked away, and accessible. Add to this combo, the REU, and, in theory at least, you would have a machine that would operate almost entirely from fast RAM, except for end of day disk storage. It all sounds nice. The way I see it, at least two factors negated this from happening: [1] At the time of the 128's intro, in late '85, CP/M was well on the way to being eclipsed by MS/DOS, the de facto business sys of choice, and [2] The 128's implementation of CP/M offered slow screen re-freshes. The slow screen re-fresh prob would exist for a speed typist using WordStar. It wouldn't be a major factor using SuperCalc2, the fastest calculating spreadsheet in benchmark tests on the 128, or dBASE. And, having all the many useful utilities instantly available is a tantilizing possibility. Add to this Z-Sys options, all operating from RAM. Why not? Looking at this hack today, it is still fascinating. Suppose that extra 128K of RAM is limited for use in CP/M? That's 128K of CP/M applications that would be instantly addressable after a 12 second boot from a 1581. An additional plus, would be that data files stored in parts of bank 1 could be shared with existing software on both the 128's native side and CP/M. [To digress for just a minute, those who use dBASEII, might want to consider getting the final release version, 2.43*, which seems to run a lot faster than the 2.4x versions.] And finally, since all the Z80 source is readilly available, perhaps we could coax one of our resident gurus into re-assembly of the ccp to unleash this power. (It is the ccp, isn't it?) :) Did I leave something out? Howie ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 2 Sat Dec 29, 1990 PETER-CPM (Forwarded) You are right in saying that a hack of this sort would benifit CP/M probably more so than native mode. Fact is, it doesn't really matter. All RAM can be accessed by sending the proper code to the MMU to access any RAM bank on the 128..in ANY mode (this includes the 64 mode). Under CP/M, this switching is probably easier to accomplish. You could 'hack' the source code.....and write a .com file to do any bank switching you need but that usually isn't necessary...just a .com file to switch banks should sufffice. I'm not sure I'm familiar with the added RAM 'hack' you mention...is it one where you 'piggyback' RAM on RAM? If thats what it is, the only problem I can foresee is one of 'timing'..and that could be somewhat difficult to get right. The hardware/software needs to get that timing right on or all this is moot. If this sort of mod works in native mode, then it shouldn't be a problem in CP/M mode. ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 3 Sun Dec 30, 1990 R.ROMINE1 (Forwarded) I believe the hack he is talking about is the one mentioned in CAT 4, TOP 6. This is the hack that addes two more banks (blocks) of 64K, for a total of 256K internal memory. There is another hack that adds extra memory to the REU's, also. The hack as designed by Richard Curcio(sp?), *is* supported by the C128's native mode. It can be accessed by its BASIC 7.0, especially the BANK command. The c128's CP/M is the banked version. Adding support for the extra banks of 64K shouldn't be too hard. I believe Kaypro users, use the 256K versions of their machines as RAM Disks. C128 users, already have RAM Disk support via the REU. I would like to see a bank used for disk buffers, in fact for all buffers that could improve with added memory. I'm not sure how banked versions of CP/M would use other banks for TPA. I would like to see one bank for the "prg.com" area, another for "variable/data" storage. Ron. ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 4 Sat Jan 19, 1991 H.HERMAN1 (Forwarded) This one may be a bit off the wall, but recently I've grown to like mousing, and would really enjoy having this in CP/M mode, as well. Does our sys allow for mouses as input devices? Can I just define it as a device, and then start pointing? Or, am I just asking too much from an already overtaxed screen output? :? Howie ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 5 Sat Jan 19, 1991 D.BURR [Winterhawk] (Forwarded) Well, I have only made use of CP/M on my 128 once in a blue moon, but I am fairly certain that the system does not include mouse support. If you can write driver code for the mouse in Z-80 assembly then I see no real reason why it wouldn't work. However, there aren't any programs that will support a mouse are there? What would you be looking to use it for? ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 6 Sat Jan 19, 1991 H.HERMAN1 (Forwarded) Well.... Maybe I haven't thought this thing through... :/ However, I was thinking it would be nice to be able to use a mouse in some of the dBASE things I run. (Haven't yet sat down to figure out how to get dBASE to follow the pointer.) But.... It seems like the coding is available for it... Howie ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 7 Sun Jan 20, 1991 PETER-CPM (Forwarded) While there currently isn't a mouse driver for use under CP/M, there is no reason why there can't be one. Since there is very little in the line o er..GUI's in CP/M, you would need to write the driver to work much like a light pen does using absolute x/y cooridinates. In essence, it would be a form of GUI. Would it overtax the system? I don't think it will all that much. There are already programs out that 'draw' on the 80 column screen using x/y coordinates. One example is COMAL and it does it quite well. If you were to disassemble the mouse driver (native) code I think you'll find that its not all that difficult to do and can be done with Z80 code. Realise tho, that all screen i/o is done with the 6510 under CP/M..so it probably won't be as fast as it is in native mode. ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 8 Sat Jan 26, 1991 G.STAGLIANO (Forwarded) Three cheers for CP/M on the C128. I have Commordores Colt and it is quite niece but CP/M on the C128 makes it a great hackers machine! I will be upgrading my 512K Ram expander to 2 megs soon. Someone pleas write a patch to the Bios that would allow it to operate as ether one large drive or two smaller ones. Can bios be modified? This looks like a doable project. Another Patch is needed for the screen updates. D.Goodenough is making Q-term work at 16.2 Kbaud. We need to modify the source to speed up the 80 collumn screen display. Remember user fucntoion IV subfunction9 akallows for direct 8502 manipulations and User function II 122-126 manipulate the80 collumn chip with block fill, block move and character install must be run from the z80 side as direct calls! <<<---Stag the 128 man--->>> ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 9 Sun Jan 27, 1991 H.HERMAN1 (Forwarded) Stag, I assume that it can be done! After all, Miklos wrote a 6th driver for drive F: for using the QBB along with the REU. Both ram drives ran perfectly. This allowed me to have four disk drives, and the two rams, for a total of six. Running a short routine from profile initialized the extra drive. I quess the same thing could be done to address the 2 Megs. However, I haven't heard about anyone taking this on, yet.... Howie ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 10 Sat Nov 16, 1991 HOWIE-CBM [H.HERMAN1] (Forwarded) help! :( Can someone who doesn't have a RAMLink help me... I cannot get a short routine to work, and don't know if it is a program fault, or <shudder> due to the RL. The idea of the routines is that you put whatever CP/M things you want into a 512k REU. Exit from CP/M, and then in 128 mode run 'reu2disk". This is supposed to make 16 files that will be an image of the REU. With TRON on, it keeps crashing on me at line 140. :( If you happen to be successful, well then, the idea is: You can use the REU for other things, or blank it out. However, next time you want to use CP/M you first run 'disk2reu' to load the REU with CP/M things, and then boot into CP/M, to find your REU ready for use. The idea is to have several of these files, each for different uses. And, since it is filling the REU in 32k batches, it is a lot faster than copying over 90 or so files in CP/M mode. This was written by Brian Nalewajek, who wrote an article for EIGHT BITS AND CHANGE. He was not happy that NZBLITZ would not run on his C128 under Z3PLUS but that those running NZCOM could use it. These routines were his way of effectively doing the same thing. (NZBLITZ has a picture of the user's customized NZCOM (running under CP/M) system, and instantly boots, instead of loading in the many ZSYS files at boot up.) An extraordinary idea. Except for me it just won't work. Before running these, change the UNIT number in line 140, and 130 respectively to write, and then read from whatever drive you want. I had mine set to 16. Here are the routines: reu2disk ======== 100 rem reu memory to disk program 105 : 110 f$="memblock ":n=0:x=0:y=0 115 : 120 for n=0 to 15: rem for the 16 32k blocks of memory 125 n$=(str$(n)): rem this sets the numerical 'tag' 130 fetch (2^15),(2^14),(x*(2^15)),y 135 rem 32k, 4000hex, 1st or 2nd 32k half of reu bank y 140 bsave (f$+n$),d0,u16,b0,p(2^14) to p((2^14)+(2^15)) 145 rem filename start add end add 150 if x=0 then x=1:else x=0:if x=0 then y=y+1:else y=y 155 rem move to next reu bank every second iteration 160 next n 165 : 170 print" transfer complete " disk2reu ======== 100 rem disk to reu program 105 : 110 f$="memblock ":n=0:x=0:y=0 115 : 120 for n=0 to 15 125 n$=(str$(n)) 130 bload (f$+n$),d0,u16,b0,p(2^14) 135 bank 0: rem set config to look at ram only 140 stash (2^15),(2^14),(x*(2^15)),y 145 bank 14: rem back to normal 150 if x=0 then x=1:else x=0:if x=0 then y=y+1:else y=y 160 next n 165 : 170 print" transfer complete " Perhaps someone can recognize a programming error? The 'reu2disk' program doesn't have any of the bank switching that 'disk2reu' has. Could this be why I can't get to first base? Any and all comments welcome!! :) Howie P.S. The author does welcome others improving on this, by using machine code, burst protocols, or (modestly) better Basic code. ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 11 Wed Nov 20, 1991 HOWIE-CBM [H.HERMAN1] (Forwarded) Got it to work!! :) Changed reu2disk by adding the following lines: 105 slow 126 bank0 131 bank14 Changed disk2reu by adding: 105 slow That's all that was required. This thing is absolutely amazing. It compeletely restores the REU which is all ready for use when you get into CP/M. It takes about 5 seconds from a RL, and should run pretty fast from a 1571 or 1581 with the addition of burst loads. Now all I've got to do is a quick boot into CP/M, and then run all the PROFILE.SUB routines direct from the REU, since everything is there. :) Hmmm..... Wondering.... Would this work equally as well with things like CS/DOS, Basic8, the Pockets, GEOS?? Interesting possibilities here! Howie ------------ Category 5, Topic 8 Message 12 Wed Nov 20, 1991 C128.JBEE [* Sysop *] (Forwarded) I have a program of the that type the restores both the REU and Basic 8 structure buffer under Basic 8, so yes, it something like that will work under Basic 8. Most useful if you are experimenting and not even a reset will bring back a cursor. BTW:would have helped you with your program but I was both offline and still REUless :P ------------ ************ Topic 9 Thu Jan 09, 1992 P.HAINES2 [STROBE] (Forwarded) Sub: WRITING BBS PROGRAMS INFORMATION ON BBS PROGRAMMING. 2 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 5, Topic 9 Message 1 Thu Jan 09, 1992 P.HAINES2 [STROBE] (Forwarded) I WOULD LOVE TO WRITE A BBS PROGRAM THAT COULD UP/DOWN LOAD PROGRAMS. I JUST DONT KNOW THE CODING IN BASIC OR ML. IF ANYBODY KNOWS OF A BOOK OR OF A SUBROUTINE THAT WOULD DO THE JOB PLEASE LET ME KNOW. THANK YOU... [ S T R O B E ] ------------ Category 5, Topic 9 Message 2 Fri Jan 10, 1992 C128.JBEE [* Sysop *] (Forwarded) There are BBSs here online that contain source code. You could try checking out those. There really is not much difference between writing a database program and writing a BBS. The file transfer and communication modules are all pretty much the same. You can find some modules here online. ------------ ************ Topic 10 Sat Jan 18, 1992 C.AMEZAGA [GeoBasic] (Forwarded) Sub: PetSpeed Anyone know what a Recompiler for PetSpeed64 is?? For that matter anyone know of something that will decompile PetSpeed64?? 4 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 5, Topic 10 Message 1 Sat Jan 18, 1992 C.AMEZAGA [GeoBasic] (Forwarded) Someone wrote me a letter from sweden asking if I knew of anything that would recompile. After reading through his letter I come to think that what he is asking for is a decompiler. So anyone know of a decompiler for Petspeed64?? The gentleman whats to decompile a program so he can modify it to his specs, and the compile it once again for speed. Anyone?? Thanks and take care..... Carlos ------------ Category 5, Topic 10 Message 2 Sat Jan 18, 1992 C128.JBEE [* Sysop *] (Forwarded) The only decompiler I have seen is for BLITZ! and I believe it only decompiles the program into Assembly Language source files. Which considering the file is now uncommented and a tangled mass of twisted logic because it was originally BASIC I can not see it being of much use to anyone. ------------ Category 5, Topic 10 Message 3 Sat Jan 18, 1992 AMFORD (Forwarded) Nah, the de-BLITZ pgm takes it back to basic. Still no comments and some twisted logic, but what do you expect from basic anyways? :0 ------------ Category 5, Topic 10 Message 4 Sat Jan 18, 1992 C128.JBEE [* Sysop *] (Forwarded) I stand corrected :) ------------ 5 ?