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************ Topic 24 Wed Oct 13, 1993 M.RANDALL2 [Maurice] (Forwarded) Sub: New CD-ROM for 64/128 Commodore now has the machine we've all been waiting for. Read about it... ...what do you think? 32 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 1 Wed Oct 13, 1993 M.RANDALL2 [Maurice] (Forwarded) Yes, you are hearing it right! Commodore has just released a CD-ROM drive that can connect directly to the serial port of your 64 or 128. It is the new AmigaCD32 machine. Think of it this way: Contained within a 1541 is a computer with built-in software on a ROM chip. This computer takes care of interfacing with the disk that you slip into the drive and also handles the communication to the 64 via the serial cable. Now, inside the AmigaCD32 is a computer also. In fact, this little machine contains what is more or less an Amiga 1200, so to speak. This machine is capable of communicating with an external device through a port in the back of the machine. It also has the DOS needed to interface with a CD that you would place in the machine. Since this is an Amiga, it can load software into ram that, depending on how that software is written, can perform many different tasks. One of those tasks could be the very simple job of sending data through a serial cable to an external device which could be a 64 or 128. So basically, all we need now is the correct software on a CD that when inserted into the machine, would autoboot and the AmigaCD32 would then become a massive storage device for a Commodore 64 or 128. You wouldn't even need to have a monitor connected to the CD32 or the keypad controller either. The CD could not only contain the neccessary software for emulating the Commodore DOS, but could be jam-packed with all kinds of GEOS and PD software. Commercial software companies could also release their software on CD. Commodore could sell a lot of these machines for this purpose. I'd buy one. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 2 Thu Oct 14, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) Are you saying that the CD32 comes with a C64/128 serial port connection? CD-ROM players for the IBM are selling for $300-$400 and are expected to drop to $200-$250 by the 1st quarter of 1994. How much is this one selling for anyways? ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 3 Thu Oct 14, 1993 M.RANDALL2 [Maurice] (Forwarded) No, it doesn't come with the cable. I'm only saying that because of it's design, a company could design the software and manufacture a simple cable with a serial port connector on one end and an appropriate connector on the other end. It wouldn't have to be any kind of interface, just a cable connecting some lines together. The software could even emulate JiffyDos if it recognizes that the host computer is using it. Just imagine the entire QLink library on a 3 CD set. I think the selling price of the CD32 is $299 if I'm not mistaken. A cable could sell for somewhere around $20-$30. The DOS software could be supplied on every CD intended for this application. As far as GEOS is concerned, the directory size would not be a problem as long as geoSHELL was being used. geoSHELL has no limit on directory size. There is also no reason why a 64 couldn't access any graphics and text files that would be on most any CD since the software would handle the transfer of files. As far as the 64 is concerned, it would just look like a Commodore disk drive, much like CMD has done with the HD and RamLink and the other devices. Imagine the entire QLink library at your fingertips, with no 'plus' time. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 4 Fri Oct 15, 1993 D.BURR (Forwarded) It is a great thought (the cd32 to C= idea), but I doubt anybody would do the necessary work to craft the software tools to drive it for a 128 or 64. In theory at least, it would be quite simple; according to one of the CD32 engineers (quoted in Amazing, this month) the expansion port on the CD32 gives you access to virtually EVERY signal on the machine, i.e. it could be almost entirely controlled from an external source, possibly even a remote source. It IS an Amiga 1200 with some minor changes to the graphics hardware to speed up polygonal manipulation, 3d, etc. What would be an even better hack IMHO, is a custom interface to hook the CD32 up to a Ramlink parallel port or an HD scsi connector. Again, we are just playing with ideas, but in theory you could slave the entire Amiga inside the CD32 to the 128 or 64, and have the world's smartest drive (GRIN). Heh, I would love to see an Amiga being a workengine for my 128, kind of poetic justice Daniel ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 5 Sun Oct 17, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) As someone who is now keeping two computer systems alive ( a maxed- out C128 and a new i486 clone), let me add two cents worth. The major use of CD-ROM, at least in the clone world, is for various multimedia programs. There are also a few high-tech, high-realism (and easy to crash) flight sims, and then there are massive reference works like on-disk multimedia encyclopedias. Examples of these are: MicroSoft Dinosaurs, The 7th Guest, F-15 Strike Eagle III, MicroSoft Encarta. Multimedia is not workable on the C128 because of the massive amounts of RAM needed for realtime animation sequences with sound, and the need for a processor capable of running fast enough to retrieve the data and display it while remaining reasonably close to realtime. Don't get me wrong: I am very aware that some forms of multimedia already have existed on 8-bit platforms for years. But thte clone standard has become photo-realistic, and the 8-bit platforms simply cannot drive a screen capable of showing these images. A merely *decent* IBM clone display is now up to 1024 X 756 with 256 colors onscreen, and can be driven at thirty frames a second while accessing the CD- ROM and driving the sound card. No eight-bit machine has the hardware to handle this kind of multimedia, but this is precisely the kind you need a CD- ROM for: large image and sound files of tens of megabytes each are very common. I'm not saying multimedia can't be done on a C128. But the image and graphic requirements of a 128 multimedia program would of necessity be orders of magnitude smaller. A CD-ROM simply is not needed for this. As for flight sims, there are many good ones already in the hands of nearly every 64 and 128 owner. True, the market has dried up for new ones, but I personally have over ten really excellent ones for my 8-bit machine--why do I need more? The idea of putting hundreds or thousands of programs on a CD-ROM is an attractive one for any computer, I'll grant you. You could fit an enormous amount of software on a 560-meg CD-ROM. But, trust me, in an 8-bit world, you can fit all the software you're likely to have on a 40-meg CMD SCSI hard drive, already available, and even becoming inexpensive. My clone has 600+ megs of hard drive space, and it will hold far fewer programs than the 128's 40-megger. Why? Well, just one flight sim for the clone, Falcon 3, takes up almost 30 meg of hard drive space. That's the rule in the clone world, not the exception, and it's one reason why massive CD-ROM drives are catching on so fast in that computing sphere. To install a program on your hard drive may take hours if you are installing even from 1.4 meg floppies. CD-ROM access is instantaneous by comparison, and doesn't take hard drive space. Now reference works are the one place that CD-ROM makes sense for any computer, no matter how fast it is or what the width of its data path. 560 meg is big enough to put an entire encyclopedia on, with sounds and generous illustrations to boot. A CD-ROM is the only way I know of that this kind of software can be practically created and distributed. But an encyclopedia is just an encyclopedia, friends and neighbors. It may be flashy but it just ain't much fun. Adapting a CD-ROM drive to a 64 or 128 is certainly possible, and CMD really already has created the hardware. Most CD's are SCSI, and they've already created a valid SCSI interface for their hard drives. A CD-ROM is really only a read-only hard drive, after all. But I don't really see the software advantage of hooking a CD-ROM up to my 128. That's IMHO, of course! If you feel differently, post it, and let's all get a lively conversation going! :) --James Peeples ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 6 Sun Oct 17, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) I think the main people to be attracted to a CD-ROM interface (at first) would be BBS owners. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 7 Sun Oct 17, 1993 M.RANDALL2 [Maurice] (Forwarded) I'll accept your two cents and throw in another couple of cents. First of all, I never said anything about multimedia. I wouldn't need a CD-ROM to do animation on a 128. Leave that to the Amiga. And I certainly see no need to adapt any of the existing SCSI CD-ROM drives to the back of a CMD HD. You are absolutely right that an HD can hold most of what you need. But, the new AmigaCD32 can be 'the' CD to plug into your 64 or 128 and at the same time it can serve as a stand-alone machine for other purposes. There is a vast library of CD's flooding the market with graphics and text files that could be imported into a 64 or 128 for various reasons. Heck, the CD32 could do the graphics conversion 'before' it sent it to the 64! Try and do that with any of the other CD-ROM drives out there. Speaking of multimedia, that is a buzzword that is just a big marketing hype to sell more MS-DOS machines. I don't think anybody really knows what multimedia is supposed to be. Simply plugging a CD- ROM into a 486 machine is not multimedia. Although it would be another source of media wouldn't it. Hmmm... does that mean that an AmigaCD32 is a single- media machine unless you can plug another storage (media) device into it? ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 8 Mon Oct 18, 1993 D.BURR (Forwarded) Good points there Maurice, and well taken. I am in agreement as regards the virtues of a CD32/c64-128 interface, because you are really not adding a drive to your c128 or c64, you are creating a 2 machine network between 2 different cpu's. The advantage of slaving an Amiga with a 68020 processor to an 8 bit machine is obvious: you can have it process a LOT of data before it spits the results out to your humble 8-bitter. Graphics conversion, text conversion, lots of these things could be done. In a similar vein you could treat it as a super-accelerator for the 128 or 64. Simply allow the 128 to control the CD32 and you can access the AGA chipset. As I said previously, I doubt anybody is working on this right now, but it IS a really nifty idea for a hack! ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 9 Tue Oct 19, 1993 J.JONES36 [LOADSTAR] (Forwarded) I don't get this. The The CDs will contain graphics that exceed the ability of the C-64 to display (16 million colors and REALLY big bitmaps that even Amiga 2000's without 24-bit video boards can't display. You will need tools to convert Amiga graphics to C-64. This means painstaking and SLOW conversions, because these BIIIG bitmaps are sometimes 100 200 and 300K -- and that's COMPRESSED. You can't run the programs on the CD. You're not going to get C-64 programs on CD unless somoebody with a LOT of money to do it. Softdisk has a LOT of money, and an IBM and MAC mag, and we don't have a single program on a CD. A CD holds over 600 meg of data and are generally much slower than hard drives. How much slower on a C-64? Don't get me wrong. I love the 64 mode, but if you want to play with a CD, I suggest buying the CD32 and using it in the CD32 mode. Use an Amiga tool to convert the pics to GIFs or MACPAINT and then port them over to GEOS or IPAINT. There is nothing wrong with having two computers and using them both. There is no need to mangle a CD32 or create flaky schemes that "control" the CD32 through its serial port. It can't be controlled through that port unless a program on the CD32 side reads bytes passed through the port and acts on them (null modem). If you want to control the CPU ala accelerator, you're talking CD32 expansion port or slots. I say if you want to use a C-64 with a CD32, just buy the CD32 and then by the C-64 emulator by questronix. You should get 100% C-64 speed and access to all connected Amiga drives, includiing the CD. Trouble is, most of the CDs are going to be commercial, possible encrypted or compressed. I just don't see the point. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 10 Tue Oct 19, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) If you think multimedia is hype, you've never played The 7th Guest, or checked out MicroSoft Dinosaurs. Multimedia is what CD-ROM is all *about*, at least in the clone/Windows world! Curiosity: just what DO you want run from a CD once it's hooked up to a Commodore? ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 11 Sun Oct 24, 1993 MIKE.DUNCAN (Forwarded) CD-ROM drives have been dropping in price, just like everything else. NEC is now selling triple-speed and quad-speed drives. Just take a look through the Nov. Computer Slopper and you'll see the old out-daed single-speed CD-ROM drives for $200. And the internal ones for the messy dos systems are as low as $150. You can probably get them for _less_ at the trade shows. The point is, CD-ROM is catching on. The prices will continue to drop, and eventually someone will make an interface for the 64/128. Doug has mentioned (more than once) that the CMD HD will pass any SCSI commands you send it. It seems like an upgrade for a CD-ROM reader wouldn't be a major undertaking. I don't know. But I _do_ know that there's a company in Virginia Beach that makes custom CD-ROMS. The fella I talked to said that he can put up to 680 megs on one CD-ROM. He said he sells single disks for $150, and additional copies for $75 each. And they sell em for less, depending on how much data you want stored, and how many CDs you order. Sounded pretty flexible. So I did some checking around and found out that you can get a pack of 25 blank CDs for $450 ($18 ea.). Anybody care to guess how cheap these things are going to get in the near-future. So I don't say it's pointless to ponder CD-ROM for the 64/128. I say it's only a matter of time. Like I said before. Someday nobody will want any of this stuff, and we'll be picking-up read/write SCSI CD-ROM drives at garage sales dirt cheap. Mike D. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 12 Sun Oct 24, 1993 CMD-DOUG (Forwarded) As a read-only medium (considering prices), CD-ROM isn't really viable for the 64/128. It's applications are limited, and nobody is going to produce CD's specifically for the Commodore. When you consider the size of programs for the 64/128, you could fit just about every decent piece of PD/Shareware on 1 or 2 CD's. The main application of CD-ROM for a 64/128 that I can see at this time is for BBS operators. This tends to do little for the actual Commodore user, since these would be MS-DOS downloads for the most part (though things like graphics files from the other platforms can be used by Commodore users, with conversions). I'm not one to say something won't be done, but I don't think this will be done by anyone hoping to make any money off the idea... which is most likely why it hasn't been done thus far. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 13 Fri Nov 05, 1993 R.SNYDER2 (Forwarded) First, what ever happened to the $39 CD-ROM interface from europe? Second, sooner or later some body will hack an interface for themselves, after that it's just a matter of convincing him (green) to do more unless it is a complicated hack. Third, if you have school age children that need to go to the local library every other night for research the encyclopedia even without the animation of the DOS version would be a God-send. I am waiting for my grandchildren to get a little older before I pop for one but reference is one of the CD-ROM drives bright spots. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 14 Fri Nov 05, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) I don't believe it would be possible to read CD-ROMs for IBM or Mac on a 64/128 even if you did have a viable interface and drivers. But I could be mistaken... ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 15 Fri Nov 05, 1993 P.BORDERS [Pete Borders] (Forwarded) CD-ROM's aren't really for a MAC or an IBM, or a UNIX box for that matter. CD- ROM discs virtually comply with the ISO-9660 standard which specifies the format of the disc, the way data is stored and also the naming conventions. I am not familiar with MAC discs but in the case of UNIX discs there are a set of extensions to the ISO-9660 standard called the Rock Ridge Extensions that let the discs support longer, mixed case, file names and both hard and symbolic links. The nice thing is that these discs are still ISO-9660 and can be put into an IBM pc, or a MAC, and read perfectly. The main problem for the C64/C128 would be a driver to convert ASCII to PETASCII and to understand the format of the disc. Pete ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 16 Fri Nov 05, 1993 M.RANDALL2 [Maurice] (Forwarded) We are all forgetting my original concept here. I am talking about the AmigaCD32 machine. This unit could be made to plug directly into the serial port of a 64. Any conversions, whether it be graphics or text could be handled from within the drive by the built-in Amiga before sending the data to the 64. We are not talking about a 'dumb' CD drive plugged into an IBM here. I think it would be fun to continue to use a 64 in GEOS and load graphic files from a CD as though they were stored in GEOS format. To the user it would look just as normal as can be. These drives are priced in the ballpark too. Imagine the amount of text that could be read or accessed. The Amiga could do all the translation and unarchiving on the fly before sending it on the serial bus. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 17 Sun Nov 07, 1993 RANDOM-MAG (Forwarded) Wait a second here.. First off, a look at multimedia. Multimedia is an overused phrase that really means next to nothing. Our lovely Amiga 1000 is recognized as the first multimedia machine, but what that really is no one really knows. The idea, anyway, is to have graphics, sound, music, animation, and so forth all in one, as in the animated encyclopedias. So far, though, its not going to well. Take the 7th Guest for example. While praised as such a great multimedia game with over and hour of digitized animation, etc etc, the game itself is extremely boring. With CD ROM drives, they're not actually making the programs more advanced, rather turning what would have been a ten second intro screen into an hour. Nor are CDs taken to their full capacity... Take the CD 32 games, many right now are simply conversions staright from the Amiga, and many only use less than five megs of the 580 megs available. As for the Commodore using CD Roms, it could easily happen, but through which way? On the one hand, a simple interface between the casette port and headphones on the CD would take advantage of the CD's space, but for a fraction of the cost of a CD ROM drive. This was like Camamerica's CD project for the 64. The big question is whether the support would be there. If you expect software companies to make CDs for the 64, they would need to know that there's a base for them. Obviously, the CD32 idea would not be ideal, because its doubtful a good number of Commodore users are going to buy the CD32 for a CD ROM drive. The SCSI drive would also be unlikely. However, a simple interface to the cassette would be most likely. One last thing: CDs AREN 'arent that expensive to make. For a little over $1,000, one can buy a CD maker from Phillips. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 18 Sat Nov 20, 1993 R.KANE [edgarderby] (Forwarded) Back to the original idea: it's truly elegant! But don't get hung up on how/why to access CD-ROM on the 64 (or, drool, the 128 ;] ) This concept would apply across the Amiga line. With a background task, an amiga monitors a serial cable from the c= 8-bit. All directories, inincluding RAM:, PC0:, hard drives, or CD drives, would be accessable (as(as devices with logical numbers, as well as subdirectory commands sent by the C=8bit. It IS possible for the Amiga, recognizing an IFF format, could send the file pre-converted to a pre-selected format for the 64/128. (grammar !?!?!) Of course, that would take some benevolent programmer a lot more work than simply sending the data as requested, which would still be great. I I know CMD wouldn't like this to effect drive sales, but it would solve the 64/128 <>Amiga file transfer problems. While that serial port cable is connected, the handler on the Amiga could recognize printer devices and provide a multi-meg printer buffer/spooler! As a side benefit, this would eliminate the need for a printer switchbox. The printer benfits would be enough in themselves, IMHO, but the drive access would be irrestible! ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 19 Tue Nov 23, 1993 D.TUOMI [Doctor] (Forwarded) Personally, I would like to see someone make a LAN cartridge for the 64 & 128. While this is a little off the subject, I think that such a beast would provide all that has been mentioned, at probably a much lower cost. With such a cartridge you could connect the 128 or 64 up to a file server system. Whether it be a Amiga or a PC, it doesn't matter. Once that's done, you can import all the stuff you want from the server's CD-ROM without getting into custom hardware for the 64/128 (beyond the LAN system). This would be of great benifit for BBS sysops. For such a CD system as has been discussed would really be a boon for them, more-so than the average 8-bit user. I think that the LAN system would be even better, because it would allow you to have more than one 8-bit running your board, all sharing your Amiga or IBM files from your server. Considering that cards for the PC to do such things are now in the $100-$300 range, it might just get me to drag out my 386 and do something with it other than play games. Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 20 Wed Dec 01, 1993 L.MCCLURE (Forwarded) The following is from a message on comp.sys.cbm (Usenet), dated 11-30-93: ----------- Hello, Well here in Australia I was lucky enough to find some C64 software from a local supplier. I purchased Impossible Mission 1 and 9 other games in a compilation which comes on CD. There are also about 5 music tracks on the CD (not music to play through the C64). It was all for $19.99Aus, which I thought was a good deal. There's a small gadget which goes into your dattasette port and there you plug an RCA plug from either a left/right audio out or headphone socket from your CD player to load the games. They all load in about 30-40 seconds. Some of the other games I remember are Dropzone, Fist II, David's Midnight Magic, Leaderboard Golf... sorry can't remember the others right now.. :) If you wish I can get an address, phone/fax number for you if you're really interested. Cheers... :) Mail : int367g@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au ---------- Since everyone on GEnie now has Internet mail access, I would suggest contacting this fellow directly if interested. If you don't know how to send Internet mail from the standard GEmail menu, type "GO INTERNET", and you'll find a special option on the menu there for sending Internet mail. Note that this interface and CD-disc uses a standard audio CD player, not a CD-ROM drive. (In other words, it uses the CD player as a rather spacious, and apparently fast, play-only datasette. As it uses the audio outputs, this rules outs decoding purely digital data, such as standard CD-ROMs. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 21 Wed Dec 01, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) Sounds like the one that was selling earlier in the U.K. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 22 Sun Jun 05, 1994 C.HANNA at 17:02 EDT sign me up! I would love to have a CD rom drive with the thimgs Maurice men tioned! ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 23 Mon Jun 06, 1994 D.TUOMI [Doctor] at 03:36 EDT You know what the best way to make a CD-ROM for the 64/128 would be? There is an 64 emulator for the PC called 64S or something like that. It emulates a 1541 in memory, and uses standard image files of 1541 disks for disk data storage, as well as a custom SEQ format for single files, which is called "tape" on the emulator (it doesn't load like tape!) If you were to stick a bunch of these type of converted disks onto an IBM readable CD-ROM, you would have three markets. 1 for the 64/128 (with the approriate driver software for your CMD HD), 1 for the IBM PC and its emulator, and one for the Macintosh and its 64 emulator (uses the same type of image disk files). That might make it almost worth it. Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 24 Mon Jun 06, 1994 CMD-DOUG at 22:44 EDT Might I point out that most of the programs I've seen in that format are illegal copies of copyrighted software? There's no question that we could fill one CD, maybe even two, with legal stuff and/or PD. Problem is, we don't have the time to collect and weed through it all, and we really can't see much sense in putting out something that we would then have to spend a lot of time supporting ourselves through putting together additional releases, utilities, etc. IOW, if we can't count on software support from other 3rd parties, there isn't much incentive for us to create the device, or for the end user to buy it. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 25 Tue Jun 07, 1994 C128.JBEE at 01:49 EDT If someone developed a CD-ROM interface I would support it. Soon I will be offering software in .ARC form on FD-4000 disks. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 26 Tue Jun 07, 1994 D.TUOMI [Doctor] at 03:48 EDT I think there is enough PD stuff around to fill a few disks. I know that my user group's library has several CD's worth of PD stuff. And, its all collected in one place. This stuff is GEOS, old PET stuff, 64, 128, programming, SID's, etc. Can you image SID music on a CD? There would be enough space to put A LOT of them. The problem is that there is no way any third parties can develope software if there is no hardware to do it with. Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 27 Tue Jun 07, 1994 RHHAYDEN [Robert H.] at 05:09 EDT CMD-DOUG, I don't see what new hardware you would be selling? Just hook a SCSI CD- ROM drive (like one of the new NEC 4x speed models) to the back of a CMD hard drive, no? Robert ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 28 Tue Jun 07, 1994 CMD-DOUG at 19:26 EDT A. Count up the space it takes to store those programs. One CD ROM can hold approximately 600 to 650 MB. If you're lucky, you might fill one CD with good, useful, and interesting software. Think about it. That's enough space to hold over 100,000 SID average size SID files. B. We've been over this subject time and again internally. Regardless of how we go about it, there is not enough of a 'real' buying market for us to do anything with CD ROM on a Commodore. If there were, we'd already be involved in doing one. The approach of just hooking an external SCSI CD ROM drive to an HD means that you must limit the market to users willing to buy both an HD and a CD ROM drive. Not to say it isn't doable. This territory is wide open to ANYONE willing to do it. It just isn't going to be CMD. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 29 Wed Jun 08, 1994 RANDOM-MAG [Random Mag] at 22:00 EDT Yes, it can be said that there certainly ARE enough public domain and shareware files out there to make two or three CDs, that's just it. If every PD and shareware program ever made could fit on just one or two CDs, then where is the market? One CD is 660 megs, one 1541 is 170k. Simple division tells us that that means 3,975 floppies could fit on ONE CD-Rom. Commodore programs, even the largest ones, rarely take more than three or four double- sided disks. How then, could software producers justify the use of CD-ROM as the media for their software on the Commodore? It's overkill. True, when produced in MASS quanitities, CDs actually cost less than floppies to produce. But, the C64 CD-Rom market, if one was created would be very small. Besides, CD-ROMs are not exactly fast. In fact, even the new quad- speed CD-ROMs are slower than hard drives. With that in mind, WHY would someone want software produced on a CD-ROM on the Commodore? If you already own an HD, then running from the hard drive is much faster and more convenient anyways. Plus, you can't write to CD-ROMs without a $10,000.00 drive, so the average user can't exactly use it for archival uses. Still, it's true there are quite a few CD-Roms out there for IBMs and Amigas filled with clip art, etc which Commodore users could access with a drive. While it's true that there are a few users out there who could use such a drive, the cost of producing the proper software simply doesn't seem worth it. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 30 Thu Jun 09, 1994 D.TUOMI [Doctor] at 00:19 EDT I don't think that you would need a 4x CD-ROM for the Commodore. I think you could get by with a standard speed CD-ROM drive, considiering that the transfer speed over the serial, or even parallel lines is not going to be the best the CD-ROM could do. The only painful part will be in the search times. My earlier suggestion was to put it into a format that more people could use. If a CD-ROM were formatted using the X1541 standard of storing floppy disks you could peddle the ROM to Mac and IBM users of the new 64 emulators for those machines. If you made it readable on an Amiga CD-ROM drive, you would open things up even more to those people who are using 64 emulators on that machine. Also the X1541 standard isn't exactly the most efficient of storage meathods. So, you'd be occupying a bit of waste space for every disk you made available in the CD-ROM. For example, if you were to do a SIDPlayer CD-ROM. You would get all your SID utilities and stick them on there. Get the public domain players for the IBM and the Amiga and stick them on there. And then fill it up with everything you can. You could also include all the text to the SIDPlayer books that you sell (just OCR it into text). And wrap it up with a few extra goodies and you have something sellable and usable on more than one machine. Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 31 Fri Jun 24, 1994 CBM-DENNIS at 01:07 EDT The main use I see for a CD-ROM drive for the Commodore 8 bit computers is for the BBS folks to be able to read GIF CD-ROMs etc. You could read text files as well, but that would depend on how the text was saved. A standard IBM external CD-ROM will connect to the back of the CMD hard drive, but the standards on programming the SCSI-II interface is less than clear! Dennis ------------ Category 2, Topic 24 Message 32 Mon Jun 27, 1994 C.SOPKO at 18:54 EDT Goodness.. a current message :) First time to this area.. was hoping to find a topic on User groups in my area! :D Cin ------------ ************ Topic 25 Fri Feb 04, 1994 MRABOY at 21:57 EST Sub: Grapevine 14 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 1 Fri Feb 04, 1994 MRABOY at 22:01 EST I have a computer at Grapevine for repair and its been there for over amonth . are these people reputable. When i call they say they will have it in ad ay or two. Any suggestions. Thanks Mike :) ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 2 Sat Feb 05, 1994 C128.JBEE at 04:17 EST If they have had it for a month, I think it is time to ask for it back and send it to someone else. ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 3 Fri Feb 11, 1994 L.SCHONDER [Lou] at 10:08 EST It might take longer than that to get it back. ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 4 Sat Feb 26, 1994 I.MCKINNEY [TheBigMac] at 01:35 EST I'm not really sure if Grapevine is reputable at all. I ordered two 1581 "new" power supplies from them through their BBS a month ago. I got them today. Neither one of them were new and neither one of them worked. If this is going to be our only source for Commodore parts and supplies, we are in big trouble. The power supplies are going back along with a demand for a refund. I guess I should include a note that they have a problem with the people who package that stuff to send out. Those power supplies had red stickers on them which normally tells you (if you have ever been to a repair shop) that the component is bad. I'm going to start searching high and low for a new source for Commodore products. ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 5 Sat Feb 26, 1994 C128.JBEE at 05:54 EST I think it is more like they do not know what they have vs. being dishonest. C= says "here are C-65s, C-64s with a built in disk drive". We now know what they really were. I am sure they thought the 1581 power supplies were new and they were sold to Grapevine as new. Trouble is when you buy or get consigned warehouses full of hardware and software from OEMs you always get a few surprises. I am equally sure the person putting the 1581 power supply into the box could not tell the difference between a 1581 power supply and a IBM PC power supply. Since Grapevine has taken an interest in C= computers and is trying hard to provide support, I would grant them a little leeway and try not to judge them too harshly. ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 6 Sat Feb 26, 1994 THE.OUTLAW at 15:54 EST I too have some doubt about them JBEE, I ordered a 1581 drive before xmas. As of last week it still wasn't shipped. I canceled the order. I now have another 81 plus a mouse for the cost they quoted me. Maybe sometime in the future I'll try thme again but I'm not sure. I can recommend another place: Commodore Country Burleson,Tx 817-295-7658 All they deal in is C= Stuff & Amiga with reasonable prices. :> And of course for the Hard Drive or FD series Drive Folks Can't Beat CMD :> ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 7 Sun Feb 27, 1994 MRABOY at 08:35 EST They keep telling me that they are sending out my repaired c128d. They have had it since Christmas. I still haven't seen it. s ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 8 Fri Jul 01, 1994 B.MASSE [BIG BOB] at 21:21 EDT I would like to put my two cents in about the Grape Vine Group... I recently had the opportunity to order a floppy-drive replacement from these folks. They were all out of 1581 assemblies but, after talking to one of their Techs, I ordered an amiga 500 internal assembly. I placed the order less then two weeks ago and it came today. It also worked very well. This is the first time I have dealt with this company and I would recommend them highly. The reason I posted this message is since I have been a member of the flagship I have read nothing but negative things about dealing with this company. I was scared about loosing my dough or getting sent defective merchandise. In my case I was pleased with their service. Bob - - - ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 9 Sat Jul 02, 1994 C128.JBEE at 03:58 EDT I have never had any problem with the Grapevine Group either except trying to get the infamous C-65 delivered. I just figured it was a case of people being over worked and not completely knowing what Commodore had sold them. Instead of an intent to make people unhappy. ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 10 Sun Jul 03, 1994 MRABOY at 09:44 EDT They still haven't fixed my computer. Since last NOVEMBER! s* 3 ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 11 Mon Jul 04, 1994 J.STAFF [James] at 16:14 EDT Are they still around? I had ordered a 128 motherboard back in February, then I noticed it on my June's Credit Card statement. Going to call tomorrow and see if they shipped it. James ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 12 Wed Jul 06, 1994 P.KELLER5 [Knight Rider] at 05:17 EDT If they posted a charge to your credit card, I would definitely check on it! Since that charge was on your June's statement, which would mean probably May that they charged you (check for the date they charged you), I would wonder. Shouldn't take a month to get back to you, unless they are not going by UPS. ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 13 Thu Jul 07, 1994 J.STAFF [James] at 20:59 EDT I finally called them this week, it should be delivered this week, due to the backlog. Then, the floods here in Georgia, so it should be either next week or two. Roads are limited here. James ------------ Category 2, Topic 25 Message 14 Thu Jul 07, 1994 MRABOY at 22:57 EDT believe it when you see it ------------ 2 ************ Topic 27 Fri Sep 24, 1993 J.SCHWARTZ1 [DuneWalker] at 21:50 EDT Sub: History of Commodore The illustrious history of Commodore Business Machines 13 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 1 Fri Sep 24, 1993 J.SCHWARTZ1 [DuneWalker] at 21:52 EDT There is a text file floating around... somewhere... that gives a history of the Commodore Business Machines: its humble beginnings as a typewriter repair store in Toronto, etc. Does anyone here know where that file is? Perhaps I saw it on Quantum Link when I used to be a member. If anyone here is a member of both GEnie and QLink, can you look there for that file (and bring it over here)? That's assuming, of course, if QLink is still around. ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 2 Sat Sep 25, 1993 CBM-MARK at 07:59 EDT I seem to remember reading something like that out of an older issue of one of the C= mags. Don't remember which one though. Ahoy, Compute's Gazette, ? ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 3 Sun Oct 03, 1993 R.HARRIS1 at 23:09 EDT Yes, those Commodore history files do still exist on Q-Link. ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 4 Thu Oct 14, 1993 D.TUOMI [Doctor] at 02:22 EDT I think some effort should be brought forth to move those files from Q-Link over to GEnie. If for nothing else, if Q-Link does ever go then that information will no longer be widely available. Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 5 Thu Oct 14, 1993 CBM-YLR.ROSE at 09:08 EDT Doctor.. sad as Q's demise is.. they do hold a 'copyright' of sorts on their programs.. same as GEnie does. Only the author of the programs or someone with their permission, can transfer the files here to Genie. Copyrights are sticky, and we sure don't want to jeopardize our position here by doing anything remotely smelling of a violation. Hugs! ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 6 Thu Oct 14, 1993 C128.JBEE at 22:44 EDT Actually, as long as it is freely distributable (going by Q-Link's Terms of Service) anyone is free to do what they wish with the file, including uploading it to other networks. Unless of course someone starting uploading thousands of files here. But then again Omega Q is using an illegal copy of .ARC (which I own;) so I would not sweat the details too much. :> ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 7 Sat Oct 16, 1993 C128.JBEE at 04:42 EDT History of Commodore joke: How do you know if you are on the way out at Commodore? They promote you to president ;D ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 8 Sat Oct 16, 1993 D.TUOMI [Doctor] at 06:57 EDT As a president of a user group I have to offically frown upon copyright infringement. However, the way many companies of treated Commodore users in the past, to me, should invalidate their copyright. A copyright is to protect the origial creator of an item for his work. However, in my opinion, should that original creator decide not to distribute his work because he doesn't feel like supporting that machine, I feel that that piece of software should enter public domain. I think the current copyright laws are inadequate, since they don't take into account the rapid changes of computers and the comoditiy trading of the programs that run on them. Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 9 Sat Oct 16, 1993 CBM-YLR.ROSE at 09:02 EDT Its Hot news!! The latest Loadsar Letter mentions more happenings at CBM!! Get your issue now. :D ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 10 Fri Oct 22, 1993 E.FERNANDEZ5 at 23:18 EDT What sort of news? >:) ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 11 Sat Dec 18, 1993 DUNEWALKER at 12:03 EST I found it! I found three text files that I had printed out long ago: 1) "The Evolution of the (Commodore) disk drive"; "The History of Commodore"; and 3) The Commodore PET. I had lost the files on diskette, so, using my Amiga and a hand scanner, and Migraph's OCR text recognition software, I converted back to disk form. I uploaded the files here today (12/18), in library #33 (I think). The file name is CBMHistory.txt. I found it very entertaining. I also uploaded the file to the Starship Amiga library, in AmigaGuide (hypertext) format. ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 12 Sat Dec 18, 1993 C128.JBEE at 13:22 EST Thank you :) Can't wait to read it. ------------ Category 2, Topic 27 Message 13 Sat Dec 18, 1993 DUNEWALKER at 18:27 EST Yes, it's online now... file #13974, library #33. Enjoy! ------------ ************ Topic 28 Wed Feb 09, 1994 H.STEVENS5 [KHaroldOH] at 21:36 EST Sub: Compute Gazette Disk This topic is devoted to the discussion of the change in Compute Gazette from hardcopy to floppy disk. Tell us what you think about the change. Do you like the changeover or dislike it? 35 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 1 Wed Feb 09, 1994 T.GOSSER1 [PowerUserMag] at 22:18 EST I like it! A few refinements would make it better. But as is, it is a winner. :) Tom ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 2 Wed Feb 09, 1994 GEOS-TIM at 22:30 EST I like it too. I wish I had gotten January, but February's disk seems to have quite a bit of info in it. I guess, I probably liked the hard copy better, but as far as disk publications go, I think it will do alright. : :) -Tim ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 3 Fri Feb 11, 1994 L.SCHONDER [Lou] at 10:09 EST I'm still waiting for my January disk. I guess at this point I should call them! ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 4 Sat Feb 12, 1994 H.STEVENS5 [HaroldOH] at 11:05 EST If you are waiting to get the January issue you will not get it. I had to call the editor, Tom Netsel, to see if he could send me a spare copy (I am one of the feature writers). According to the circulation department if you changed over from hardcopy to the disk in November, you will start with the february issue. And I have yet to get the February disk, despite calling three times to get it. --Harold ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 5 Sat Feb 12, 1994 P.KELLER5 at 21:48 EST Hmmmmm, a couple of yeas and a couple of nays on Compute's Gazette disk. Well, I'm not convinced yet if I should try it or not. How about a few more replies on their subscriptions to the Gazette disk? ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 6 Wed Feb 23, 1994 H.STEVENS5 [HaroldOH] at 20:52 EST Well, it seems that they haven't got all of the kinks worked out of them yet. On the January disk when you try to read Steve Vanderark's PD column I kept getting an error message that said it was not on disk. I discovered the problem to be a different name for the file than what was in the menu. And I finally got the February disk after calling Compute three times. There is a great C-128 game on the backside of the disk that takes up almost the whole side. Too bad there wasn't a C-64 version of the game. --Harold ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 7 Thu Mar 03, 1994 C.KELTS at 21:17 EST I still have not received a disk for either January or February. I have been a long time subscriber and had a complete collection of Gazettes and Computes going back to 1982. If someone who has gotten those two disks would email me please. C.KELTS ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 8 Fri Mar 04, 1994 PIXELS at 18:52 EST Support for ANY Commodore product in Baltimore, Md., is almost non-existant. Can someone supply me with an online or US mail contact for this or any other C64 "publication" that still exists. Thanks in advance! ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 9 Fri Mar 04, 1994 C128.JBEE at 19:47 EST Cat 2 Topic 3 contains the addresses of most of the magazines along with whatever GEnie addresses. I *think* you can Internet an e-mail to Tom Netsel on AOL ... not sure though. Most of the Gazette writers are on GEnie. ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 10 Fri Mar 04, 1994 D.PHELPS1 [Tim Phelps] at 21:55 EST C.Kelts and to all: I have not received the niether the March Gazette nor the March Compute. However, I did get the February Gazette and every Compute since January 1993 (including all Gazette editions up to Dec. 93). Is there something with my subscription particullary or is this not an uncommon event? ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 11 Fri Mar 04, 1994 J.THOMPSON75 [Wyrkham] at 22:00 EST I recieved the Jan disk but it won't spin in my drive. I have requested another disk but I probibly will not get it. JimBo ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 12 Mon Mar 07, 1994 J.THOMPSON75 [Wyrkham] at 20:19 EST Here are two publications. LOADSTAR in 128 and 64 format. 1 800-831-2694 Sofdisk Publishing POB 30008 Shreveport, LA 71130-0008 dieHard 1-208-383-0300 POB 392 Boise, ID, 83701-0392 ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 13 Wed Mar 09, 1994 H.STEVENS5 [HaroldOH] at 21:42 EST This is for C.KELTS and other Gazette subscribers. If you have not recieved the Jan. or Feb. Gazette, call the subscription department and demand to speak with the subscription manager. I had to keep bugging them to get my Feb. issue and I have yet to get the March issue. If you don't receive your Gazette disk by the 15th of the month, call them and raise heck, it might help to threaten to cancel your subscription. And for those whose disk just sits in the 1541 and spins, check it out on another disk drive as your di [Drive could be out of alignment. But if the disk continues to act up, there is a good possibility that the U.S. Postal Service laid the disk near a magnetic source and wiped it out. --Harold ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 14 Thu Mar 10, 1994 C128.JBEE at 00:53 EST From my own experience the disks do not work because they are squished flat and the media disk is sticking in the jacket and giving a 18,00 read error. ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 15 Sat Mar 12, 1994 H.STEVENS5 [HaroldOH] at 00:29 EST Hey, JBEE, it sounds like the usual and customary work of the U.S. Postal Service! :) And these guys want to raise the price of a first class stamp. Don't they realize that the more they raise the cost of mailing a letter, the more that E-mail becomes the norm? ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 16 Sat Mar 12, 1994 L.SCHONDER [C128.LOU] at 11:06 EST I didn't threaten to cancel my Gazette subscription after receiving nothing but a bill so far. I just CANCELLED it. Simple solution. ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 17 Mon Mar 14, 1994 R.TAHSLER [RUSS] at 11:14 EST It sounds like I'm not the only one still waiting for his Gazette disk to arrive. I subscripted in Jan. 94 via MasterCard, received my bill in Feb. and still no issue of Gazette. I don't want to cancell just yet. I'll give them till the end of March and see what hppens. Still Waiting, Russ :P ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 18 Mon Mar 14, 1994 GEOS-TIM at 23:24 EST Take heart......I subscribed in Early December, missed the January issue, but got the February issue. I think it takes at least 6 weeks. That is about par with most magazines, so I would imagine you'll be getting it at any time now.......hmmmm. come to think of it, I haven't gotten my March disk yet. I plan on giving them a little slack, there is bound to be a few problems as they sort out their new environment. :) -Tim ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 19 Tue Mar 15, 1994 C128.JBEE at 01:52 EST You really should give them 4-8 weeks just to process your order. It is the "norm" for big magazines that use separate subscription services. ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 20 Thu Mar 17, 1994 L.SCHONDER [C128.LOU] at 01:12 EST I received the March issue (disk) yesterday. I'm impressed! Maybe I WAS hasty in cancelling........ Oh well. Time to pull out that 800 number again! ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 21 Sat Mar 19, 1994 R.TAHSLER [Russ] at 21:04 EST Well, as of today and my weekly phone call to the Gazette offices, they told me that my March disk was shipped aound the first week of the month, but I still haven't received it. They told me that they had NO STOCK on March's issue and that they would extend my subscription one month......GREAT but in the mean time I'm missing all the articles and programs. Would anyone be kind enough to send me copies of Steve Vander Ark's GEOS columns Still Waiting, Russ ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 22 Sun Mar 20, 1994 H.STEVENS5 [HaroldOH] at 22:00 EST Russ, I called two days after the March 15 deadline that we're supposed to get the Gazette and I was told that it was mailed around the first of the month too. However, when I told the operator that this was the third month in a row that I had to call and complain that I did not get my disk by the 15th of the month, I was told that a mail trace was going to be put on my account. BTW, I did finally received the Feb. disk about a week after I called last month and then got the replacement disk on March 18. Go figure! --Harold ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 23 Thu Mar 24, 1994 J.THOMPSON75 [Wyrkham] at 20:54 EST what new enviroment? I have recieved disks since 1982. They need a better menu system. They tried GOS which I liked. Then went back to thier old one. I would prefer if they would make the whole disk GEOS compatitable then all the articles could be read without switching between 128 and 64 mode. any non Geos programs could easily be copied over at home to a standard CBM disk format. Plus a GEOS format could easily be used with CMD's hard drive or dual desk top.. JimBo ; ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 24 Fri Mar 25, 1994 GEOS-TIM at 20:53 EST Things are looking up!!! I got my April Gazette disk. They must be getting it all together. This is the earliest I have gotten it. It seems to be a pretty informative issue. :) -Tim ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 25 Fri Mar 25, 1994 T.GOSSER1 [PowerUserMag] at 21:21 EST April?! I just got my March issue! In fact I have 2 of them, if anybody needs one... ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 26 Sat Mar 26, 1994 J.STEPHENSO1 [Jimbo] at 00:19 EST I received my March issue last Tuesday. Who do you know and what are you doing? :) Jimbo ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 27 Sat Mar 26, 1994 R.DAY at 05:24 EST I got the April one yesterday. I called them on the 15th because I did not get the March one and they said call if I did not get it by the 15th So about a week later I got a March gazette disk. Then the next day I got a nother March disk. Now just yeter day I got a April one. I never did get a February one. But some one sent me a January one. At lest it looks like I will be getting them now :) ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 28 Sat Mar 26, 1994 H.STEVENS5 [HaroldOH] at 09:53 EST The same happened here. I called on the 18th and got my March disk a couple of days later. Pray tell, Tim, who DO you know to get your disk early? (Heh, heh) --Harold ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 29 Sat Mar 26, 1994 GEOS-TIM at 11:24 EST I gave my mailman a tip at Xmas. :D -Tim ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 30 Sat Mar 26, 1994 L.VICTORY [FO#1] at 21:37 EST I got my March disk about a week ago and the april issue came yesterday. Go figure! Larry ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 31 Sun Mar 27, 1994 L.SCHONDER [C128.LOU] at 02:57 EST Ditto for me, my March disk arrived about 10 days ago, and the April disk showed up yesterday! I WILL send them my $$$$$$ after all... ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 32 Sat Apr 02, 1994 I.MCKINNEY [TheBigMac] at 03:59 EST I received my April disk Wednesday and my March disk Thursday. Go figure. I think the "new" format that has been advertised could be better and more programs could fit on disk if they tried a different menu program and spent more time checking out the disk before they send it into production.= So far, Loadstar has the best menu setup I've seen so far. The only things I hate about it is the outrageous price and the number of useless programs youyou get for that price. I was going broke subscribing to Loadstar when the only programs on their disks I could use were oversized GEOS fonts. But let's leave them alone (I did) and keep on suggesting new ways to spruce up the Compute! disks. ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 33 Sat Apr 02, 1994 C128.JBEE at 21:41 EST The bad disk sent out to Compute subscribers was a one-time error. The person responsible for doing it is no longer at Compute. Write to Compute (Tom Netsel) with your suggestions, I know he will listen. ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 34 Sun Apr 03, 1994 F.OGLE [Color BBS] at 20:11 EDT Pixels, there is a fairly strong netrk of C= support in Baltimore, but you need to associate with the users on the local bbs's. Sports Zone BBS 410/285-4312 Sonic Temple BBS 410/285-0428 Contact me (Betelgeuse) on either bbs, I run the latter one. I can put you in contact with a technician affiliated with the local user group. He is both reasonable and dependable. Fred ------------ Category 2, Topic 28 Message 35 Sun Apr 03, 1994 H.STEVENS5 [HaroldOH] at 21:39 EDT Like every other C-64 user on here, I got my march disk two weeks ago and then got my Compute disk on Wednesday. Maybe somebody in the subscription department listened to me when I told them that I was a semi-regular writer and didn't care for the way they were handling the distribution. --Harold ------------