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************ Topic 17 Tue Nov 16, 1993 TOM.PATCH (Forwarded) Sub: Commodore First Annual Census This was found on a Baltimore BBS and seemed to originate in KS. It may be worth a 29 cent stamp. 4 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 17 Message 1 Tue Nov 16, 1993 TOM.PATCH (Forwarded) Found this posted on a BBS in Baltimore. Sounds like a good idea at least worth a 29 cent stamp. Omicron, Inc., a software production company is pleased to announce the First Annual Commodore 64/128 computer census, The goal of this census is to give software and hardware manufacturers an accurate representation of the number of Commodore 8-bit users there are and the hardware they own. This information will be crucial to these manufacturers in deciding whether or not to support the Commodore 8-bit computers. The results of this census will also determine whether or not Omicron, Inc., as well as several other software companies, will participate in a joint venture to import European software titles. To participate in the census, please send the following information: 1) What Commodore Computer(s) do you own (C=128, 64, ect)? 2) What disk drives(s) do you own (1541, 1571, 20 meg Lt. Kernal, etc)? 3) What RAM devices do you own (1750, 1764, Quick Brown Box, RAMLink, etc)? 4) What peripherals do you own (1351 mouse, 1670 modem, NX-1000C Printer)? 5) What type(s) of software are you interested in (adventure games, word processors, Geos products, spreadsheets, etc)? 6) On the average how much do you spend on computer software in one year? Please mail your answers to: Omicron, Inc. Official Commodore 8-bit Census 1406 Euclid #1, Berkeley, CA. 94708-1944 ------------ Category 2, Topic 17 Message 2 Fri Nov 19, 1993 G.CORREA [RAMRunner] (Forwarded) Well it good enough for me, I think it's worth a first class stamp. All we need now is a form to make it fool proof. ------------ Category 2, Topic 17 Message 3 Wed May 18, 1994 RHHAYDEN [Robert H.] at 07:34 EDT Omicron, Inc. is in Berkeley, CA? I wonder if there is any relationship to Berkeley Softworks/Geoworks? Robert ------------ Category 2, Topic 17 Message 4 Sun May 22, 1994 J.BARBER9 [Dan Barber] at 13:45 EDT I sent one in about a month ago. Have not heard from them. Dan ------------ ************ Topic 18 Mon May 31, 1993 C128.JBEE at 02:14 EDT Sub: Meeting Commodore users offline - UGs A Topic about meeting Commodore Users offline in a User Group setting. 14 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 1 Mon May 31, 1993 C128.JBEE at 02:20 EDT Someone mentioned how nice it would be to meet other Commodore users offline in a User Group setting. We will be running a survey in the future that will gather (with permission!) the mailing address of people online for the mailing of materials from vendors. Do you think supplying a database of people (that gave their explict permission to be contacted by EMAIL) with just their user names and first three digits of their zipcode would be useful? Mine you, this wouldn't be a dating service :D Just something along the lines of a User Group service. I already do this for people that ask if local user groups exist in their area since I sort all my customers by zipcode/name now. ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 2 Mon May 31, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 06:19 EDT It would be ok by me. The thing I miss most about the Commodore specific magazines is the ads. Especially now with the dwindling number of suppliers. ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 3 Mon May 31, 1993 HOWIE-CBM at 08:54 EDT JBEE, This sounds like a fine idea. It also sounds like an awful lot of work.... However, since I would be the recipient of benifits from such a database, if you are willing, I am all for it! :) Howie ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 4 Mon May 31, 1993 A.PEROTTI at 22:56 EDT I want to register my YES vote. It sounds like a great idea. Just let me know when and where to post my address. ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 5 Tue Jun 01, 1993 CBM-MARK at 23:23 EDT You got a YES vote from me too ;) Like Ed, I miss reading all the ads from the former C= magazines. ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 6 Wed Jun 02, 1993 RHI.JLORIAN [Jay Fisher] at 02:23 EDT You have a YES from me! (knowing grin) ;) ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 7 Sun Jun 06, 1993 M.NEUS [Neusoft] at 16:14 EDT Well, it looks unanamous! Count me in too!! Mike ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 8 Sun Jun 06, 1993 P.KELLER5 [Diesel II] at 23:18 EDT Same here! ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 9 Mon Jun 07, 1993 E.FERNANDEZ5 [cyprox] at 23:34 EDT YEP, count me in too. ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 10 Sun Aug 22, 1993 A.ANDERSON16 at 22:27 EDT I'll make that another YES vote! ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 11 Mon Aug 23, 1993 C128.JBEE at 10:26 EDT Okay, I will work this into one of our upcoming (new) menu items. :) ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 12 Sat Oct 16, 1993 C128.JBEE at 04:43 EDT Have not forgotten about this, just busy implementing it :) ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 13 Mon Nov 08, 1993 G.CORREA [RAMRunner] at 23:52 EST Finally got to this message string, so I'll also vote with my split personally a double yes vote. (grinning twice at you JBEE) ------------ Category 2, Topic 18 Message 14 Tue Nov 09, 1993 C128.JBEE at 01:06 EST Okay, two more ;) ------------ ************ Topic 19 Thu Nov 04, 1993 L.COX10 (Forwarded) Sub: Classic Computing - NEW MAGAZINE! F O R Discussion about a new magazine covering all 8 bit computers in general. Similiar to Compute! magazine years ago. 2 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 19 Message 1 Thu Nov 04, 1993 L.COX10 (Forwarded) Commodore magazines come and go. Run, Ahoy!, geoWorld, plus many others - GONE! I am pleased to announce that a new magazine is in the planning stage. Classic Computing will cover all eight bit computers and as a result will have a much larger reader base. Hopefully this will help the magazine keep going. To give you an idea of what kind of magazine I am starting - look at back issues of Compute! from the early eighties. Right now, I am looking for input and ideas from users of "classic" computerd. Email me with any suggestions you might have. I will send more info. ------------ Category 2, Topic 19 Message 2 Thu Nov 04, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) I got one, use the magazine topic a few topics up :) I would not say "come and go" and group RUN and AHOY in there. RUN ran for 10 years didn't it? Until they added 68xxx stuff AHOY was probably the 2nd best magazine (after Transactor), same with .info. I can't see grouping small magazines and newsletters into the same class as RUN, Transactor, AHOY, or INFO. Besides circulation in the 10,000 vs. 100s, you just can not lump RUN, Ahoy, Transactor, and Compute in with those that did come and go. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary. ------------ 2 ************ Topic 21 Thu Jul 08, 1993 HOWIE-CBM at 17:32 EDT Sub: I am HOT!!! I'm melting... 16 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 1 Thu Jul 08, 1993 HOWIE-CBM at 17:32 EDT I melted... <gulp> ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 2 Fri Jul 09, 1993 C128.JBEE at 10:09 EDT It is so hot here (104) I have the fans on the computers :D ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 3 Sat Jul 10, 1993 HOWIE-CBM at 03:21 EDT JBEE, That IS hot! We got up to only 101 yesterday, combined with lots of humidity, and bad ozone. It is a good thing our 128's don't have to breathe this air. Howie ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 4 Wed Dec 29, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] at 15:42 EST Seeing as to how its September now, it's a little late to reply to this one, but just for a grin, I miss how cool my C-128 runs! A 486 makes a real good space heater, and the screen probably puts out enough radiation to be effective birth control. ;) ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 5 Tue Jan 18, 1994 CBM-MARK at 00:44 EST Boy what I wouldn't give for a little more heat outside right now! Brrrrr it's cold here. Hasn't been above zero temps since, I think it was, last thursday. Actually I could go for a little more heat inside where my computer is. I have an area in the basement for my computer & stuff and in this 'older' home the basement walls have a fine coating of frost on them just several feet away from me. Of course, wouldn't you know it my space heater quits on me the other day just before the cold snap :( Part I need for it won't be here until later in the week at earliest. ::sigh:: Guess I don't have to worry about my 'puter overheating, do I? ;D Mark ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 6 Tue Jan 18, 1994 H.HERMAN1 at 02:13 EST Mark, Now that is what I call dedication: going into a frig in order to compute. I am definitely impressed! :) We had a heat wave here in NY today. 37 degrees. As cold as it was ( and we broke all records) we never went below zero. Did get to 4 degress tho, which is close enough. I think I am ready to visit Florida. Or, maybe Puerto Rico? Howie ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 7 Tue Jan 18, 1994 GEOS-TIM at 21:28 EST I love the snow, and the cold....but they are threatening to put me back in the institution. Oh, well I ski, and the cold weather keeps the sane people off the mountain. That leaves me .....still out there, of course. :) -Tim PS Now for a 64 laptop that can take the cold. ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 8 Tue Jan 18, 1994 CBM-MARK at 22:25 EST Opps , sorry about the blank message above. My phone line from the modem froze up and I had to get a hair dryer on it so the data would start flowing again. Well the last I heard the high for today was something like 17 below zero! When I went to work this morning it was 28 below. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!! Same thing is predicted for tonight again. Kids love it, no school again ;) ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 9 Wed Jan 19, 1994 H.HERMAN1 at 02:21 EST Mark, Well, at least you can quote all those temperature readings in the "below zero" category. Here it is just plain old cold, and nothing startling to show for it.... While I am thinking about it, I wonder if perhaps you could help me with a scientific experiment I have been intending to conduct. You see, when I was in high school they told us that the colder wires would get, the faster the electrons would travel. So I was wondering if you could check out that frozen telephone wire and let us all know if all this sub-zero weather is actually a way to increase 2400 bps up a notch or two? And, while doing all this experimenting: It would sure be intersting to know how much cold actually enters the house from the frozen telephone wires.... I think I liked the July 8th melt better... Howie ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 10 Sun Jan 23, 1994 CBM-MARK at 21:01 EST Howie, I tried the experiment with the 'frozen' phone line vs a warm one and didn't notice any difference in baud rate. One thing I discover though is that it sure is easier to type now that I don't have to wear mittens to keep my hands warm! ;> Yep, temps are back to normal here. Even above normal! Mark ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 11 Mon Jan 24, 1994 LLOYD at 01:30 EST Frozen fingers and phone lines, huh? Well, I do have a few fingertips that were cutup slightly making it sore to type. But as some of you know, I travel all the time carrying my C64C from motel to hotel to motel all across the USA. I have been in the L.A. area of California for 3 weeks now. The temperature here is in the 80's. It rained for the 1st time this year today. The rest of the time it is between 75 and 85 here during the day. But during the night it drops into the 40's during the winter. But before you say that I wish that I was there, think about how they do the Rock-AND-Roll out here. They REALLY Rock and Roll out here! The big earthquake hit here Monday with a force of 6.6. But because of the unusual way it hit, it had the effect of a much larger quake in places. The week prior to quake, there were two quakes in the bay off of Long Beach measuring 3.5. Since the quake there have been 4 aftershocks measuring between 5.0-5.9, (A 5.0 is considered a major quake) a half dozen measuring between 4.0-4.9 (The most recent one was at 8:15 pm today), and a total of about 2,000 aftershocks. This will probably continue for years... (Yesterday, there were four 4.4 aftershocks from 4 seperate faults.) Some sinkholes have started to appear close to the beach soon after the main quake. The main Earthquake lasted 40 seconds and over 20,000 people are without a home because of it. Many people are sleeping in tents and makeshift shelters because they are afraid to sleep in a building with a roof. (Several 3 story buildings became 2 story buildings with the ground floor apartments or garages being flattened. The majority of deaths were because of this.) It sort of looks like you have your choice. You can put up with artic weather, or come and watch me do the Rock & Roll. Neither one is a picnic Lloyd ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 13 Tue Jan 25, 1994 H.HERMAN1 at 05:22 EST Mark, ha! We seem to be getting your weather, about 24 hours after you. Monday was sweltering hot at 50 degrees. And just a few days ago we were -4..... Howie ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 14 Thu Jan 27, 1994 CBM-MARK at 10:38 EST Gee, and Ithought only Wisconsin had erratic weather like that ;D ------------ Category 2, Topic 21 Message 16 Fri Mar 11, 1994 GULLIBLE [Jon] at 13:29 EST Ooops. The number I posted in the previous message was incorrect. It is 1-800- WOW ITS Hot. I just tried it and it still works. ------------ 2 ************ Topic 23 Sat Oct 30, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) Sub: Upgraded to 486, thoughts and stuff A set of disjointed thoughts about my recent upgrade to a 486 clone 32 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 1 Sat Oct 30, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) This posting relates some of my experiences since obtaining a 486 machine to go along with my Commodore c-128 system. Initial impressions: (1) The keyboard has a much better feel, but it was very hard to get used to typing on it because some of the keys are in strange places. Now I'm used to it, and typing on my C-128 can be a little challenging at times. (2) A 486/DX at 33 mHz is a very fast machine. Hard disk access times are approximately fifteen to thirty times faster than a CMD hard disk with RAMLink interface. EVerything happens instantaneously--a wait of three seconds for Windows and all its systems to load now seems about as long as the old six minute wait for GEOS to boot up. (3) Hard disks on clones are huge--and with reason. My system came with a 120-meg IDE drive, and I had filled it before I had bought fifteen programs! IBM programs are ENORMOUS... it is "nothing" for a program to take over twelve meg of disk space, and a really good flight sim, like Falcon 3.0, might take twice that. I then bought a 245-meg second drive to add to the first. I then bought MS-DOS 6 with its disk compression, which effectively doubles your hard drive space-- we're up to 600+ meg now, remember? I bought several more programs...and now my disks are 90% full again! ARRRGH!!! (4) Floppy drives on clones are nearly useless. They are used for two things: to take data files from machine to machine, or to initially load a program onto a hard drive. Almost no IBM compatbile programs can be run from even a 1.4 meg floppy. (5) Did I say nearly everything was instantaneous? I lied. To load your hard drive with a program on even a 486 machine usually entails at least ten minutes--up to thirty for the really big programs. (6) In the CBM world, I often was frustrated because some programs I really wanted badly were incompatible with my system due to disk-based copy protection. This problem no longer exists in the clone world, where disk based copy protection is a thing of the past, thank God. (7) In the clone world, I am often frustrated because some programs I really want have been impossible to run due to BIOS incompatibilities, and some hardware even has refused to work! (For example, a Thrustmaster Mark II...which is a throttle and weapons control system for combat flight simes). Usually, however, the company will work with you to solve the problem, which was unheard of in the CBM world, where all the companies assumed if you wanted to defeat their cop protection, it was to pirate their program, not because you couldn't run in because of their stupid protection. However, usually there is at least a weeks delay before the company can come up with a working solution, which equals ungodly amounts of frustration. (8) MS-DOS is a cryptic and nearly meaningless operating system, always has been, and so it remains. Windows, though easier to use once you are used to it, is worse to learn-- GEOS worked like a Mac. Period. Windows doesn't, and never will. Period. (9) However, if you are good with CP/M on the 128, you will be almost an "instant guru" when you switch to MS-DOS, where the standard is to learn just enough of the system to copy, erase, and run files. (10) Graphics on the 486 are outstanding. The lowest resolution I am used to looking at these days is 640 by 480 noninterlaced, with 256 colors. I run Windows 3.1 at 1024 by 768, with 256 colors, unless I'm dealing with True Color "photographs" (JPEG files), which are 640 * 480 * 16.1 million colors. And even at the highest resolutions, the graphics are fast, thanks to a graphics accelerator hardwired on the motherboard. (11) "Fast graphics" on a CBM means eight frames a second. "Fast graphics" on a 486 means at thirty to sixty frames per second. (12) My clone came with a graphics controller, I/O controllers (parallel and two serial ports), and mouse port already in place on the motherboard, but this is a recent development in the clone world. Commodore always has built its computers this way. (13) It's not uncommon to find even the big-name magazines make serious technical errors that are caught by the readers. Such mistakes would have been considered unforgivable in the CBM mag world--when there was once. Unfortunately, it has gone like the planet Krypton--all that is left are old issues and memories. (14) CD-ROM is great, and mutlimedia on clones is no longer the meaningless hype it used to be--it is a working standard of photorealistic software. (15) Sound on clones is vastly inferior to even a C-64...UNTIL you add a sound card, like the Sound Blaster 16, which supports 20 independant voices, digital sound, and is MIDI compliant, and includes a built-in amp, game controller port, and MIDI port-- and comes with the software to make use of all these things! (16) Flight sims are EXCELLENT on the 486! They are ultra- realistic, and are simply beautiful to watch. (17) They also have a very steep learning curve--expect to literally spend months relearning how to fly and fight. Expect to die frequently and spectacularly. Even the best CBM flight sims are arcade- quality at best by comparison. Overall, I've been very pleased with the new system, though it was very expensive to put together and had a steep learning curve. However, the frustrations of computer use have not diminished, with the exception that now most companies will actually work with you instead of against you. Favorite things: SVGA graphics, fast frame rates, high-realism flight sims, multitasking under Windows 3.1, overall system speed, and CD-ROM multimedia, photographic quality graphics. Least favorite things: a demented keyboard layout. BIOS incompatibilities. Memory management software. Single programs that take up 20+ meg of precious hard drive space just because modern "professional" programers are too darned lazy to write tight, efficient, bullet-proof code. The enormous power consumption of the whole system. The enormous money consumption of the whole system. Cables snaking everywhere. Monitors that produce enough radiation to be effective birth control. Was it worth it. I think so...but I don't know if I'll ever be --sure--. Have I stopped using my C128 system? No, and maybe that final word speaks loudest, eh? ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 2 Sat Oct 30, 1993 M.RANDALL2 [Maurice] (Forwarded) Upgrading is a term that can be used here. You obviously have upgraded from something. But the upgrade is actually from the old XT that was the 64's competition in it's most popular days. Let's just say that you have purchased a different system instead of an upgrade. Because as far as 8-bit computers go, there 'is no upgrade' to a 128. Commodore built the finest 8-bit computer ever. And the closest competitor to the 128 is Commodore's own 64. 64's have been accused of being nothing more than a game machine. Well, I think that everyone who is buying 486's are buying nothing but very expensive game machines. The home user does not need all the power contained within these computers. My opinion is that the general public is beginning to get very frustrated with the constant upgrades that have been needed in the last few years. MS-DOS machines get outdated very fast. I think that Microsoft has extended this thing about as far as they are going to go. They have patched and fixed and updated and literally screwed the system up until it works half- way decent. But it's got the programmers all messed up with what to support and what not to support. Thank goodness that IBM, Microsoft and all (most all) the other companies involved know how to market this bungled up technology. The public is really hyped up about computers. They think that 'Windows' is the standard. Well, the real standard is in the person's mind, and how that person can put his thoughts and ideas into the finished product. For most people, the finished product is a piece of paper that comes off of a printer, created with a word processor. And I've yet to make my fingers move faster on the keyboard than what my 64 or 128 can accept them. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 3 Sat Oct 30, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) Exactly...a very SERIOUS game machine with ultra-realistic flight simulators ...precisely why I bought my i486! :) I'm not sure "upgrade" is the best term (though I did use it first, I guess), because I have certainly not ceased to use my C128. I use both. They each have their strengths. It doesn't have to be "either/or"...I find that "both" works quite well for me. BTW, I -have- had my fingers type faster than a 128 could accept them... in the early versions of GEOS and GEOS-128. Not that it really mattered...I always used CP/M WordStar for the serious stuff. I do use Ami Pro 3.0 on my 486, and I like it...but also BTW, the CP/M version of WordStar 4 is to me a superior word processor, even better than the orders-of-magnitude larger WordStar 7 for DOS. IMHO... ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 4 Sun Oct 31, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) I have never faulted anyone that bought a decked out 486 as a game machine, some of the games are really awesome and the 3d multi-player war games online certainly are simulating :) Of course, the price of a 245 meg harddrive is how much a whole used C64 system sells for here. Then again a 486 system can be bought for what a C-64 and 1541 drive cost new when they were introduced. Times change, that is all, and as they do respective pieces of hardware get cheaper and cheaper. Then again, you have seen the post about someone trying to sell a 68xxx machine for what C-128Ds go for used. Just depends on what you like to use and the software available. I have had 68000 and 286 machines and sold them for more 128s. I just like using the C-128 (and C-64) better. Some day maybe some better will capture my attention, but for now I still get a real kick out of using my C-128 and they others do too. Like most people I use my C-128 mostly for word processing type of work and I spent my money on my printers. My next printer will cost more than a good P5 (586) system, so it is not a case of money, just what I like. BTW: My C-128 drives my 6 ppm printer at its max printing books at over 5 ppm. The C-128 waits for the printer even with 150k worth of buffer. Can't get any faster than that for word processing :) Long live Paperclip III :-) ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 5 Sun Oct 31, 1993 G.NOGGLE [Greg] (Forwarded) In a lot of ways I agree about the cp/m version of wordstar. The only thing on the word processing side I dislike about wordstar is that you have to hit a key to reformat the text instead of constantly doing it as you would in wp 5.1. But thats a minor point.I use both machines and others on a fairly regular basis.IBM and MAC programmers have gotten so riducously lazy with 13+ meg flight simulators. Every 18 months a technology changeover is occuring in the ibm world so every 3 years you can not go to the store and buy software than can run on your machine.What this means to me anyway that ibm'ers think its perfectly fine and everyone can afford to spend 2500 every two years to upgrade your system,Whats wrong with this picture? I will stick to using my 'dead' 128 where the price of what I want to do is not going to cost me my house. Hmm not sure what I am trying to say anymore. except that there is nothing wrong the the 64/128 machines and software. There is nothing wrong with the other machines either amiga,ibm etc. except the attitude of some people why aren't you up to date. Well I got something and it works for me and it didn't cost me house. Is not going to go anymore out of date have the manufacture go away on me and leave me with over 2000 worth of paperweight my example is the xt now days,finding stuff for that plaform you have to look for it in the same places as you do 64/128 stuff.5 years down the road the 486 svga might very well be in the same place.I be willing to bet there still be some level of support for the 128. Can the xt,286,386 Mac SE,Mac?? say the same. This is MY OWN OPINION of course :) Greg ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 6 Sun Oct 31, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) Any computer is better than no computer...but I really think -comparing- CBM's 8-bit line to a 486 machine is a mistake--not because of better/ worse, but they are very different machines, with different strengths. To my way of looking at it: Software is more important than hardware, with the exception that the hardware limits the software that can be run, and how it can be run. The software is more important than the operating system, with the exception than the operating system limits the software that can be run, and how it can be run. Software is what it's all about...and, as I've said before, flight sim software was the primary reason I bought my 486, just as in the past, the massive amount of entertainment software was why I bought my 128. I compute primarilly for entertainment. I've done some very serious work with both systems also, but serious work on computers is just a hobby to me: computers, to me, exist so I can run games and flight sims on them! :) Gotta keep some perspective, after all! Fer instance, I have Arkanoid on the 128, as well as some really nice Arkanoid-type public domain games. So if I wanna play suped-up Breakout-type games, I fire up the 128, not the 486. If, on the other hand, I wanna fly, the 486 gets the vote (and the power). Just depends on what I want to do. I see no reason to try to find and repurchase every single piece of software I like on my 128 for my 486, and then sell the 128, which is what several good friends of mine have done. Makes no sense to me. After all, the IBM-compatible world has a rate of obselesence that is matched only by throw-away razors! And I know that, I know in five years (or three, to be more realistic), my new system will be "obselete", and won't even be entirely paid for yet. I knew it when I bought it. When you buy a car, you know it's gonna be worth a lot less right after you drive it off the lot, and you can be pretty sure that before it's over, many things on it will have broken, until it finally becomes of so little value that it makes more sense monetarilly to buy another new one than to keep fixing the one you already have. Even so, I want my car, and I want my computers, if you can dig that. -- James ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 7 Sun Oct 31, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) >J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] at 15:26 EST >Software is more important than hardware, with the exception that the ... >The software is more important than the operating system, with the exception No truer words have been spoken ;> ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 8 Sun Oct 31, 1993 C.TAYLOR37 [C=Hacking] (Forwarded) Mighta as well throw my 2 cents in: *plunks them in jar* I just ordered a 486/66 system the other day costing about 6 times more than the Commodore 64 originally did when it was introduced. Why? To program. The 486 for me is something that will give me a job in the future. I _love_ the C= line of computers a whole lot better but due to the C=128/64 no longer being produced they're going to die a death - they'll probably go kicking and screaming but they're gonna die. *sighs* The 486 / x86 line of computers will probably exist for another 10 years before something else becomes more predominant. I personally do not really care for the MessyDos systems but right now there is not anything else out there that has a large established base. As for games: Whatever... I never play them on the Commodore anymore - doubt I'll do it on the Beemer that much either - for me, I get more fun out of making my own games, programs than I do playing someone else's... (And they're usually either too hard or too easy to beat...) ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 9 Mon Nov 01, 1993 J.JONES36 [LOADSTAR] (Forwarded) Re-uploaded, censored post: I have a 40MHZ Amiga with a hardware 16MHZ 286 inside and two software C-64 emulators. I think the C-64 and the Amiga knock MS-DOS dead. But there are a lot of things you can do on an Amiga, MAC, and IBM that you can't do on a C-64, no matter how hard you try. The C-64 is more interesting and fun to program. I have a C-128 set up facing the hallway at Softdisk that runs a different demo everyday so the MAC and IBM programmers can walk by and say, "Wow!" The point I'd like to add is that while we all love our C-64's let's not do the same sin of the Beamer by pissinig on other comuters platforms. All computers are fun if you sink your teeth into them. Why? Human ingenuity. Programmers hack through the cold circuits and make warm games. Windows? Okay, from a programmer's point of view, it's... [terrible vile expletive deleted, many souls saved, many corneas spared a clouding]. The wrath of God is checked for I have chosen not to utter the vile word which has been said to unwravel creation. Cherebum sing! Angels rejoice! Yes, I despise windows that much. Windows is so slow that the average user is buying an accelerated system just to gain normal speeds. Commodore's version of windows (Workbench and GEOS) do great jobs with less overhead. Especially Workbench, which multitasks at 512k. It used to be we programmers and graphics oriented people bought machines on the level of 486s because we were trying to cut down on rendering or compile time. But to an IBM user who's been typing in cryptic commands for the past ten years, a reasonabally fast and properly configured (if yer lucky) Windows system is indeed liberating -- even great. Why do I love my C-64? It's my friend. My Amiga? It's my tool. My IBMs. Er, I really don't use them at all, but when I start back to college this January, I suspect I will. :/ ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 10 Tue Nov 02, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) You make good points, however: You should try Windows on a fast 386 or a 486, with plenty of RAM. While its not as intuitive as GEOS, it is not the crawling monster you describe, and with my 486 DX/33, its quite fast. Far faster than CBM based computing, in or out of GEOS. I cannot speak on the AMIGA platforms, because I have no direct knowledge. However, after the [expletitive deleted] way Commodore treated the 128, I can and -do- say that I will -never- own another CBM computer. Period. Not now or ever will I buy a new CBM machine, no matter how great or advanced a system they produce. You cannot treat your customers like dirt and expect them to keep buying things from you. --James ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 11 Wed Nov 03, 1993 G.NOGGLE [Greg] (Forwarded) speaking as a user of the 64,128 and the amiga I don't blame. too bad Commodore never caught on,if they did they might not be in the finacial crunch they are now.They might even have a decent North American Market to fall back.But Noo we will annoy the users the dealers,and anybody we can find. If C= goes bye bye it will not be fault of the enigieers for not coming up with great products it will be the executives. Maybe no body will hire them after the way the botched up c=. This is being mean but so much promise ::sigh:: Greg ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 12 Wed Nov 03, 1993 J.JONES36 [LOADSTAR] (Forwarded) I think the only difference between CBM and IBM is that when CBM abandoned its 8-bit line of computers, the customers didn't blindly follow. Apple has done the same thing. Commodore shouldn't be singled out for this. The C-64 and 128 come out of the same era as the PC jr. and the IIe and even pre-date the GS. It's grgeat that we still have them and love them, but we can't blame Commodore for moving on. They can't make money on the same model for more than a couple years. They've got to be "bigger and better." ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 13 Wed Nov 03, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) Commodore had "moved on" before the 128 ever hit the shelf. No computer company I've ever seen is ever going to qualify for anybody's vision of a saint, but in an industry characterized by greed, avarice, laziness, and preplanned obselescense, CBM is definitely one of the worst, if not the worst, out there. I feel no sympathy for CBM: if they are in trouble, then they definately are exactly where they deserve to be. I -do- feel a great deal of sympathy for their victims though: i.e., you and me. To defend CBM's machines is a noble undertaking. To attempt to defend Commodore itself is unfortunately only a refusal to remember how it all actually happened. But, as I've said before and will say again, it doesn't matter whether you agree with or approve of my views or not. What matters is simply that I will NEVER buy another machine of any kind from Commodore, no matter what they come up with or how "neat" or advanced it is. Any CBM has definitely made some excellent computing platforms. The 64 and 128 were YEARS ahead of their competition, and the Amiga was multitasl er, that is multitasking, long before any other PC that I know of. Too bad they didn't know a good thing when they had it. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 14 Thu Nov 04, 1993 J.JONES36 [LOADSTAR] (Forwarded) CPM Survivor, Sure, Commodore has apparently made some mistakes, but again, manufacturers have to crank out new models to generate excitement and get free press. Plus Commodore is an underdog. The amiga was one of the first computers I heard of that could be accelerated to (then) VAX speed. You'd think that would attract businessmen. After all, time is money. It didn't. At the same time, dealers didn't want to sell $100 C-64s and $200 C-128s because they didn't make enough money on them, especially salemen on commission. Also authorized Commodore dealers didn't like dealing with Commodores if commodores weren't moving in their store because (as I was told by a dealer friend) Commodore gives you credit on your next order instead of actually paying for warranty repairs. Maybe underdogs can't make the same moves as big computer companies. I think that instead of accusing Commodore of not playing with a full deck, maybe thay aren't playing with a full walet, and never have. I remember seeing some Commodore reps on the old JC Penney Shopping Channel. They were selling Amiga 500s and 1084 monitors. They said that the 1084 was great with the Amiga and CGA PCs -- and, with an incredulous grin, noted that they're also selling well to the C-64/128 crowd, which they hadn't expected. I think Commodore has realized too late that we wouldn't drop the C-64/128 for something "better" and faster. After they realized it, they figured: "Okay, NOW it's REALLY too late to do anything with this dead market. They're all going to use their 8-bits as doorstops and buy Macs, PCs, Amigas and clones. And we'll have warehouses full of 8-bit computers that we'll be lucky to unload." Wrong again. Now we're all supposed to buy something to run Windows. Does Commodore dare invest in American C-64/128s? Okay, we say yes, but how do they convince the banks to finance this? ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 15 Thu Nov 04, 1993 C128.JBEE (Forwarded) For what it is worth JP, I agree with you and know you are speaking as a C-128 fan and CP/M survivor says it all :) I have always said they should let the engineers run CBM. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 16 Thu Nov 04, 1993 J.STAFF [James] (Forwarded) Here's my 2 cents worth. I've been at computers now for about 10 years. I hate IBM's and their clones. Nothing can come near any of the 64/128 and Amiga stuff! At work I "have" to use a 386. When I come home I have my new Amiga and 128 sitting side by side. What a pleasure it is! Now, if IBM came out with good quality stuff like a 64 back then, it'd be a different story. James ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 17 Fri Nov 05, 1993 C.OGLE2 [breadstick] (Forwarded) I just felt like adding my 2 cents worth as well (I think we're upto a dime by now...) As far as Commodore creating the Amiga... they didn't, they simply bought out a small company called Amiga Lorraine that had big plans for the Amiga computer... It wasn't long after the deal was finalized that the C128 product line was trashed... Anyhow, my point is that Commodore didn't really have anything to do with the Amiga until it had been running for awhile, as opposed to the Mac and MS-DOS machines which were designed as true upgrades for those original machines, C=saw a machine that was nearly as inexpensive, and contained more processor-power, while the 8-bit market was declining. I'm just suprized that production of the C64 was continued so many years after the 128 was dropped, as there wasn't near as much of a profit margin after around 1988... ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 18 Fri Nov 05, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] (Forwarded) Was the 8 bit market really declining or did CBM drop the 8 bits so the Amiga would not have to compete with them. I tend to think it was the latter because of the number of units that had been sold and because only recently did they stop producing 8 bit computers for the foreign markets. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 19 Sun Nov 07, 1993 MIKE.DUNCAN [Scratch] (Forwarded) [Maurice] > "...there 'is no upgrade' to a 128." Amen to that! I've never seen windows do multitasking. (I've seen it on VAXes.) It would be interesting.....Well hold on a minute. I have edited a document while downloading a file from a BBS. I'll take that back. Most WinApps are HOGS! There are some nice ones. But if it weren't for Norton's Destop for Windows, and 4DOS as a replacement for Command.Com....Wow! What a horrible thought! Stay tuned. A lot of systems will pass before our eyes before the dust settles. Better living thru computing! Computers for the masses! ....and all that. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 20 Tue Nov 23, 1993 D.TUOMI [Doctor] (Forwarded) I used to love computers. I don't anymore. After all that has happened, how can you love a machine which will be derided by others in a few months time? How can you enjoy what you're doing when you know it will all be for nothing? That in the end, your machine and your time is worthless, and that no lasting mark can ever be made because the machine is obsolete before it ever hits the store shelf. The big problem isn't with the machines, it's with people. People always have to consider themselves better than other people. Debates over machines are just another way for someone who has shelled out $2500 to make himself superior over other people. It's just buying prestige, just like Trump with his silly hotels. And all of you simply perpetuate this by this debate. Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 21 Sun Nov 28, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) Doctor, I have NEVER derided the C-128 or C-64 computers! They were the ones that began the whole home computer industry! I own both a C-128 and a 486 clone, and I use both. The 486 gets the most use, but the 128 still holds its own. I get the idea from your comments that you feel that to make using a computer worthwhile, it must meet some kind of "approval" from other "recognised" users, and that nothing good can be done with a machine that's "obsolete". It's just not true. Aw3 computer is never really obsolete until it no longer functions, or no longer meets the requirements of its USER...not bystanders. I bought my 486 with the knowledge that in a maximum of five years, it too will be "obsolete". Cars are obsoleted even faster than that...just by driving one off the lot you depreciate its value by several thousand dollars!r I happily say that my '81 Olds is absolutely obselete! But it is one fast car, and it gets me where I'm going just as well as a Porsche would! I suggest that you try this: Make a list of the things you would like to be doing with your computer if it were to suddenly become the "market standard". Then just do them anyway! :) I agree that computer bigotry is a real problem, and it's not going to go away, but it is, at the bottom line, a childish behavior at best. A faster computer doesn't make a person superior, nor does the size of his hard drive or the width of his prow3cessor. And let me state that when I started this post, it was NOT with the idea of opening ANY kind of "debate." Having made the plunge from the CBM world to the IBM world, I thought I would share my thougts and observations...not saying you w3SHOULD go the 486 route, by any means, but just;Hin case anybody was thinking about picking up one, maybe my comments could help them decide if it's really what they want. Remember, it's not how much ya got, but how ya use it that counts! ;> --James Peeples ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 22 Tue Nov 30, 1993 D.TUOMI [Doctor] (Forwarded) CPM Survivor, Unfortunately, people are mostly childish. After re-reading my original message, I must say that I cannot fully say that I'm immune to this either. However, owning a computer isn't what creates the problem. It's that the difference between the 81 Olds and the 94 model isn't quite as extream as the difference between a PET and a 486. I heard once someone said that if cars were to evolve as fast as computers had over the last 20 years, we'd all be driving around in automobiles that got 100 mpg and ran on the any kind of fuel. In a world like this, the status symbol of the computer is ever more used, since there is such a difference in machines. No one really cares what a 64 or 128 can do. They don't want to know. The only want to know that they made the correct decision by buying a $2,000 machine. The want to know that they're right, and that all of us who still own old computers are wrong and too stupid to know it. It's really sad that people are like that, but perhaps this isn't a problem with computers at all, but a problem with our society in general. Computers are simply mere machines they'll do what they're told, for good or for evil. And when people are around, they're used to further their own ends, and sometimes that is done simply by owning the appropriet computer name-plate and operating system. Doc. -By the way, James, I really was making more of a general complaint than really singling you out and saying that you're doing what I was complaining about. It's just a complaint about humanity that I have. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 23 Tue Nov 30, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) Doc, I sympathise. Just remember, what people think about your computer has NO impact on what you do with it. It's what YOU think about your computer that counts. I wish I could say you get away from computer bigotry when you go IBM, but you don't. People wish Pentiums feel vastly superior to people with 486 DX/2 66's, people with those feel very sorry for us folks with wimpy little 486 DX/33's, people with any kind of 486 feel sorry for anyone with a wimply little 386 'game machine'...etc...etc...etc... Bout all I can say is when people criticise your system without knowling (knowing, that is) anything about it, just don't listen to them. People also criticize people for their weight, skin color, country of origin, political opinions, religion, and a host of other things. It's all bigotry, and the best thing to do is ignore it when you can, and try to get away from it when you can't. And always remember two things that Mark Twain said: The first is to never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and it annoys the pig. ;) And if you ever feel like your stuck in "computer hell" when people are verbally bashing your machine: "Pick Heaven for climate, Hell for companionship." ;> --James ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 24 Sun Dec 05, 1993 D.TUOMI [Doctor] (Forwarded) Well, it's simply tiring. I know it's not just me. I had a writer aquaintence of mine have his machine to go down. He owns a Morrow MD-4. The Morrow is a CP/M machine from the early 80's. It's rather nice, I happen to own an MD-3 which is the non-HD version of the machine. I use mine to keep my diary and schedual. He uses his, however, for writing of motion picture scripts. About 3 months ago, he had his terminal to go down on the Morrow (old CP/M designs used an external terminal for its desplay consol/keyboard). He went to his local computer store, and they basically laughed him right out of the store. He was upset, but heard through local channels that my employer was an old member of the Morrow Minority (CP/ M) user group in L.A. So, he called up, but my employer had gone IBM. He was directed toward me (since I had probably the last working Morrow in Ventura County) and we managed to reorganize his configuration to use a different sort of terminal than was originally supplied. But, because of the treatment he received from that store (which as like a PC clone store), he went out and bought a MAC when he finally did decide to change platforms. That store just lost a customer because they were too stupid to be polite. Why do people do these things!? Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 25 Wed Dec 08, 1993 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] (Forwarded) I know where you're coming from. In 1988, I was going to buy an Epson printer to hook to my C128, I think it was an Epson FX-85. I went to a local computer store, where a very rude salesman quickly refused to sell me the printer. He said that it would invalidate the warranty on the Epson if I hooked it up to a "game box", and that he didn't want his store to get the bad publicity that the CBM crowd could give it. Things like that leave a bad taste in your mouth, dontcha know. That store went out of business not long ago, and I was pleased to see it go. Another branch opened across town about a year ago, and I recently bought a copy of Netroom 3 from them. When I told the salesman what had happened at the other store, he was amazed. I do know where you are coming from, man. I also sympathize about the CP/M machine and the problem getting the monitor replaced. One of the reasons I did get a 486 was because I knew eventually something on my 128 would break that I couldn't fix, and I'd be computerless. About all I can say is I sympathize, and I'm sorry that things like this happen. It makes the whole industry look very bad, and it makes individual users look like religious fanatics. (1st man: "What faith are you friend? I am a Baptist..." 2nd man: (laughing) "Oh no, man, no way...I use an IBM!!!) Hang in there, and don't let it get to you. --James ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 26 Fri Dec 10, 1993 D.TUOMI [Doctor] (Forwarded) Well, one certainly tries not to let you down, but this is a problem that is fairly widespread. I own about 3 128's and, being the local 64/128 user group president, I have a lot of ways of getting them repaired should one of mine go down. But, the way people treat you if you don't have the current "in" computer is absurd. Personally, I own about 1 of every kind of computer around. I love computers (not necessarily all the people who use them). I use a Macintosh Classic to do word processing. It seems to be very much up to the task. However, when a friend recently was giving me the rundown on how great a program called Photoshop was he asked me if I wanted a copy. I asked the usual question of what it required, and it seemed to require about 10mb of main memory to run. I have only 4mb on the Classic, which is actually quite a lot considering they come standard equiped with only 2. But, after this little revelation my friend recomended that I should go out and get a "real" computer, and proceeded to tell me how great the new Centris 950 systems are. I can't say that I appreciated that. And, to make it worse, if my Mac isn't a real computer, what does that make my Commodore? Well, the only morle to all this bitching and griping I can come up with, is that if you have a computer and it does the job why bother changing. As for your new 486 machine, I'm happy your into it. I wish I could afford one, my aging 386 20mhz system has gotten slow (which is ironic considering their is a 32bit processor under the hood, it shouldn't be that slow!). Times change, but you don't have to go with the latest fads of computing. Personally, I wouldn't mind if every x86 processor in existance was to break down tomorrow. It might be fun to see, but then what would I do with my VGA monitor? Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 27 Sun Jan 23, 1994 S.VANDERARK [Steve VA] (Forwarded) Having nothing important to do at the moment, I let my 386 running Aladdin browse through a few of these message areas that I previously marked to be ignored. I am surprised that while Windoze was derided as being a poderous, resource-ravaging, moronically-designed and -programmed heap of kitty puke and GEOS on the 64/128 was remembered with fond nostalgia, no one mentioned that there is GEOS for the IBM compatible machine. It works just like it's precursor for the 64/128, only better. It works, as someone said, like a Mac. If you like GEOS and find yourself switching to the IBM for some reason, do yourself a favor and get a copy of GEOS Ensemble 2.0 for the PC! It is an incredible operating system, far superior to Windoze in nearly every respect (except you can't buy $300 programs to run under it...they come with it, all for the $80 total...) Even if you are forced to run Windoze because of circumstances beyond your control, by all means get a copy of GEOS to be your main operating system. It is a simple matter to create a launcher, complete with nifty little icon, to run Windoze right out of GEOS. When you're donw with Windoze, you'll find yourself right back in GEOS. Steve Vander Ark Proud PC/GEOS user Windoze Loather (won't have it cluttering up my hard drive...) ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 28 Tue Feb 15, 1994 R.SNYDER2 at 03:05 EST DITTO!! ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 29 Mon Mar 21, 1994 C128.JBEE at 02:14 EST In case you missed it, Hewlett-Packard and Novell have taken equity positions in Geoworks. Another reason you will probably never see any one get the source code for GEOS. The basis of all their PDAs GEOS is based on the original GEOS as far as I know. :) ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 30 Fri Mar 25, 1994 C128.JBEE at 02:01 EST BTW: in case you did not know, Novell has bought Digital Research (CP/M). ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 31 Sun Mar 27, 1994 D.TUOMI [Doctor] at 17:12 EST Can we expect a new version of CP/M then? Doc. ------------ Category 2, Topic 23 Message 32 Sun Mar 27, 1994 J.PEEPLES [CPM Survivor] at 17:35 EST >>Can we expect a new version of CP/M then? Doubtfull...Novell bought DR primarilly for DR-DOS, which is a MS-DOS clone with some superior abilities like preemptive multitasking and better memory management. Novell's biggest selling point is its networking equipment and software, and DR-DOS is better suited as a platform for a network server or workstation than MS-DOS. As in interesting aside, though, MS-DOS is -itself- a CP/M clone, so you wouldn't be too far wrong if you thought of the different PC operating systems as new versions of CP/M, just for a different family of processors. --James ------------