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<C> 1994 by GEnie ========================================================================== This file is brought to you by The Commodore 64/128 RoundTable on GEnie This file may be published or excerpted in User Group newsletters providing credit is given in this manner: "Copyright 1994 by GEnie From the Commodore 64/128 RoundTable File#:#####" This file maybe be distributed, if distributed whole and unaltered, on <RETURN>, <S>croll, <Q>uit ? non-profit BBSs or non-profit networks. For more information on GEnie call by modem: 1-800-638-8369 (8-N-1 300/1200/2400) Enter: HHH Then reply: xtx99018,commrt Then enter: Commodore And enjoy! ========================================================================== Tuesday April 4th, GEOS-TIM, brought in Ron Hackley Author of FUN GRAPHICS MACHINE. Explore with workings of FGM and learn how versitile this progam is. The Commodore Library contains a Demo of this great program, file numbers: 16940 - 16941 - 16942 ========================================================================== <GEOS-TIM> Welcome to the FUN GRAPHICS MACHINE conference with .... Ron Hackley as special guest. There will be 6 topics in tonight's conference: 1) Beginnings 2) Starting in Programming 3) FUN GRAPHICS MACHINE 4) First time using FGM 5) GeoPaint vs.Fun Graphics Machine 6) FGM questions and answers Room will be in listen mode. Type /rai if you have a question. You will be called in the order that we recieved your request. Be patient. :) Welcome to the Commdore RT, Ron! <FGM RON> Thank you Tim. Rather exciting to be here, I haven't been online in over a year but Tim dragged me out of hiding :). <GEOS-TIM> I'm glad I did to. This is the first time I really got a peak at the Fun Graphics Machine. It is an impressive program! Before we get in to the conference I would like to introduce the two other members of the team. QT our behind the scenes greeter <QT> Hi!! <GEOS-TIM> and Bandit, the editor and capturer of tonights transcript <Bandit> Evening! :) <GEOS-TIM> Ron, as I was saying, I got a chance to look at your program, Fun Graphics Machine. And it makes me wonder how such a talented programmer got into computers in the first place. Could you tell us a little abouthow you got interested and involved with computers in the first place? <FGM RON> My first exposure to computers was in the Navy, back in the days of punched paper tape and massive 512 BIT magnetic core memories. The actual work was VERY boring with little to do. I decided I didn't like computers and got transferred to other work. <GEOS-TIM> LOL <FGM RON> My first personal computer was a Sinclair ZX-80 (the one you assembled yourself). You almost HAD to learn programming in order to use it. After many long nights I found I really enjoyed programming. Then support for the Sinclair began to wane. So I took a look at the C64. The wealth of info and products was a junkies dream, so I jumped in. Figured I could get away with a tape drive but that lasted about two days before I sprung for a disk drive. When Print Shop came out I was really impressed. Then I started wanting to do more, like seeing the graphics on the screen, manipulating them etc. One thing led to another, and after while I realized that these things, collectively, were really neat, and maybe I could market it and support my computer addiction. Thus was born FGM. <GEOS-TIM> Well, that answer covered a lot of ground...:D That is great..BTW what computers do you use now? <FGM RON> I've got a C64 in one corner, a 128 in the other corner, an SX under the table, and a few boxes of parts scattered around :). <GEOS-TIM> Are you running any of the new CMD devices? <FGM RON> Dunno about NEW, but I have a 20 meg HD. One of the earlier ones and is kinda loud so I don't use it much. An FD-4000 which I love and use all of the time. An JiffyDOS of course, a MUST! <GEOS-TIM> Great. CMD has been a great supporter of C= users, just as you have with your FGM support. Since we sort of broached the programming topic... did it take long for you? What problems did you run into when you developed the FGM? <FGM RON> FGM kinda grew and grew, after I accomplished one thing another few ideas would come along. The main problems I had were time, memory, and trying to keep compatibility with what everyone else had. The Programmers Reference Guide was a big help, but also a constant source of frustration in learning how to program the C64. LOTS of trial and error! <GEOS-TIM> Well, from what I've seen of the demo from the Commodore RT library, you did an excellent job. <FGM RON> Thank You:) <GEOS-TIM> Your welcome. :D We have gone through the first two topics and are going to be getting into the crux of our dicussion on your program. Are there any audience questions concerning Ron's beginnings or programming problems? Brenda has a question...go ahead Brenda <Brenda> This might be way to technical, but anyway... I know that FGM has to use programming tricks to all fit in memory. Care to explain any of that? <FGM RON> Mainly overlays, which means certain areas are replaced by other code in other areas, either from other parts of RAM where it's stashed (ANYPLACE I could find)... Or from disk, kinda like GEOS does. I also use a lot of self-modifying code, which means a routine is modified by various calls to do various things. Thus, if you go into FGM and look at the code it may do MUCH more than is apparent :). <GEOS-TIM> Reub has a question <Reub> Since you have a 128 in one corner, are you working on any 128 pgms? <FGM RON> I mainly use the 128 for word processing and telecommunicating. I couldn't see enough benefit to writing and FGM for the 128, FGM uses 120 columns (up to) and the 80 column screen wouldn't work well for that. The extra memory would be nice, but that's about all. I still may do something with the 128 though. I like the Commodore and plan to be with it quite a while longer:). <GEOS-TIM> Brenda has a question <Brenda> Um, what about doing a 40 column version of the FGM for the 128? You said "the extra memory would be nice, but that's about all" more memory would really help add features wouldn't it? <FGM RON> Not now Brenda... I've got too many other things in mind for the C64 and FGM. But I won't say the bug won't hit me:). <GEOS-TIM> QT has a question <QT> Dare I ask what else you have in mind for the 64 and FGM? <FGM RON> I hate to say right now because things end up taking years longer than planned (literally). Eh, probably more CMD device support, maybe REU... I better shut up now :). <QT> Thanks, Ron. <GEOS-TIM> LOL! Ya, those can get you into trouble, Ron. Well, we are all here to learn more about the Fun Graphics Machine. And the next topic, is exactly that. Ron, if you were to tell someone what the FGM is. What would you tell them? <FGM RON> In short, FGM is a program for manipulating graphics and hi-res screens. Graphics and text can be placed anywhere on a 120 column (up to) screen, flipped, inverted, reversed, expanded, reduced, slanted, smoothed, and various other things. I'm not an artist, thus FGM is NOT a drawing program (although some users defy me and draw with FGM anyway). Screens and graphics from nearly any program can be imported into FGM either directly, or using a reset and capture. With FGM you can construct screens to print as card, posters, labels, maps newsletters, forms, or nearly anything else you can dream up. <GEOS-TIM> That sounds like a pretty versatle program. I notice that it takes into accouunt just about anything that a program can do or should I say you would want a program to do. <FGM RON> Forgot to mention, FGM also lets you rotate graphics or screens 90 degrees. <GEOS-TIM> That brings up an interesting question... Do you think it would be possible for FGM or any C= graphics program to rotate objects a degree or a few degrees at a time? <FGM RON> I've spent many late nights on that one. It may be possible, but I haven't cracked it yet. Even doing it on paper is a nightmare (which pixels get reassigned). Then there's the distortion to account for. Whew! <GEOS-TIM> Sounds like a almost insurmountable one... the only place that I know of a programmer working on that is a fellow that is using Post Script to do it. <FGM RON> It might be the ultimate challenge! <GEOS-TIM> Lets get back on track. Of all the capabilities of FGM, where does FGM really shine? <FGM RON> I guess that depends on the user, I've seen it shine doing many things. It's great for making forms, cards, newsletters, and it's a terrific labelmaker. <GEOS-TIM> What are the recommended hardware requirments of FGM? <FGM RON> Just the basics, computer and a disk drive will get you started... A printer certainly helps. FGM supports CBM printers but they are really limited in output. An Epson or compatible is needed to really do good output with FGM. FGM's PRINTER section allows selecting a full range of densities and other options that the CBM printers simply don't support. A CMD device speeds things up. The disk is not copy protected and FGM may be installed in a CMD device. <GEOS-TIM> Is FGM compatible with any Laser printers? Do you have any plans for post script capabilities? <FGM RON> I haven't looked into PS. I've heard from people using FGM with a laser printer but I haven't personally tried it. I think you need an Epson emulation cart with a laser printer (as you'd probably need to use a laser with nearly any C= program (except perhaps GEOS). <GEOS-TIM> Looking at you answer concerning the CMD device, and the fact that it speeds it up. Brings up a question. Have you ever thought of an FGM that is CMD device specific, such as a bigger FGM that runs in a Ramlink? <FGM RON> You can put FGM into RamLink and go between areas of FGM very quickly. The CMD devices only speed up FGM when it goes between areas (ie: creating a document to printing it), and when loading or saving files. FGM isn't really a slouch when you're working on the hi-res screens. As for "CMD specific", things are being worked on:). <GEOS-TIM> What would you advise for the first time user of FGM? <FGM RON> 1. Follow the "GETTING STARTED" tutorial that comes with the program. 2. Watch the demos that are on the flip side of the disk. Demos are pre-recorder keystrokes, as though I was at your computer showing you things with FGM. YOU can record demos with FGM too (even the demo up here on GEnie:). 3. With the manual handy, play around with the program. You can't hurt anything. 4. Don't expect to learn everything in a couple of nights (or even weeks). I packed FGM with a lot of features and there is a learning curve. 5. Have a project, a reason for using FGM. Print some labels. Make a sign. Write someone a letter. Etc. 6. And... RTFM (Read The Funny Manual :). <GEOS-TIM> LOL! I like that....If it is a Funny Manual...I'll probably read it. <FGM RON> Well, not sure how funny, but it does have examples :). <Bandit> Actually it's a Fine manual ;> <FGM RON> Thanks Bandit! <GEOS-TIM> Well, we have had it confirmed. Ron, could you give us, a step by step example of drawing a graphic with the FGM ? <FGM RON> FGM is NOT a drawing program. :) However, you could use the pixel editor to draw with. Trace something on a piece of plastic wrap, then stick it to your screen (works with other programs too :) First one might select some Print Shop graphics and load them into FGM, and start moving them around the screen until they were where you wanted. Maybe edit a little with Pixel Edit, perhaps stretch a bit horizontally or vertically. You might even start with a hi-res or Doodle! screen that you downloaded, then modify and add text or graphics to it. FGM is not a color program. However, it does have a STRIP GRAY function which does a pretty good job of turning many KOALA type pix into nomal black and white hi-res. BTW, Jack Blewitt and others have done some fine color work with FGM by creating color plates and then using multi-pass printing (rolling the paper back and changing ribbons). <GEOS-TIM> I guess that the misconception that it is a drawing program is pretty prevalent among the uninitiated ( like me.LOL). <FGM RON> I can't draw! I need something to start with :). <GEOS-TIM> I'm sure there are some questions preceding "GeoPaint vs. Fun Graphics Machine" Any questions? I have learned quite a bit, so far. Brenda has a question. <Brenda> This is just a comment... what Ron said earlier about learning FGM #5 and #6 are the most important. Find something you want to do and then get your manual and do it. Otherwise, it is like staring at the blank page when you are starting your book report ,) <GEOS-TIM> That is true of most programs. You must work with it. <FGM RON> Print Shop prompts you and leads you, FGM doesn't. <Brenda> Well, watching the demos really helps too. It's like Ron is there helping you and showing you how to do each option. And you get to see what it really looks like, in real time. You know the old adage, its easier to just show you than try to describe it ,) <GEOS-TIM> probably <GEOS-TIM> Reub has a question. <Reub> Have you created any new printer drivers since ver 6 of FGM was released? Like one for the HP-540? <FGM RON> What printer(s) do you ave in mind Reub? The HP printers still have me a bit stymied, but I'm still trying to look into it. I don't have access to any and that's almost a must. <Reub> What about a geocable? <FGM RON> There will eventually be GEOCable support for FGM (you're dragging things out of me:). <Reub> :D <GEOS-TIM> Well, we are to the topic I love. GeoPaint vs. Fun Graphics Machine. But from what I've learned from this conference, I can see that they can comingle. Every program has its strengths and weaknesses What do you see as strengths and weakness for FGM? <FGM RON> Whew! For Strengths, you can move anything anywhere quite easily, you've got full control over every pixel. With GEOS I find it sometimes annoying to have to define areas, I like to be able to work on everything at once. That's a tough question Tim... <GEOS-TIM> Barbara Walters told me to ask tough questions. LOL If you were a tree, which tree would you be? <g> <FGM RON> So, I'll try Weakneses...probably the biggest weakness I see is that it doesn't have the big luxurious fonts that GEOS has, although you can bring them into FGM. Other "weaknesses" I'm working on. FGM does NOT crash with "ERROR NEAR xxxxx" messages :). Maybe a Douglas Fir? <GEOS-TIM> LOL! Okay, lets go to GeoPaint,you have already told us about a strength. The big fonts. And a weakness - the "ERROR NEAR xxxxx" Although if you have the hardware you don't get many of those <FGM RON> MANY? <GEOS-TIM> So lets outline some of the strengths and weaknesses of GeoPaint. What are they? <FGM RON> I'm not a big GEOS user, though I find it to be an impressive program. GeoPaint IS a drawing program with many tools. And it has pull-down menus and can be mouse driven. <GEOS-TIM> As a Big Geos user I have to agree. One of the strengths are in some of the Desk Accessorys that have been developed to work with it. Programs such as NewTools, geoStamp, etc. The biggest weaknesses are probably the small drawing window, and low dpi But after this lesson in Fun Graphics Machine, I can see some commonalities. In some ways the two programs probably can compliment each other. How do you see the possibilities as far as the two programs working together? Are there ways to use the two? <FGM RON> I don't consider FGM and GEOS to be competitors, they operate differently and each can be used to do things the other can't. FGM screens can be saved in Doodle! format and loaded into GEOS, and if you do a reset while and GEOS (64) screen is present, when you load FGM the GEOS screen will be there to do with as you wish. I most often use GEOS when I need some fancy fonts in an FGM document, type them in GeoWrite, reset, load FGM, and they are there to do nearly anything with. I believe FGM has more printer options available than GEOS (ie: more horizontal densities are supported). FGM also lets you bring in things from a variety of sources rather easily. BTW, Print Shop's SCREEN MAGIC is a good source for fonts to use in FGM. The 120 columns across lets you construct more involved documents, hence it can be handy to import GEOPaint into FGM and add to it. <GEOS-TIM> Have you looked into the Shell printer drivers by G.H.Wells? They are in a shell and can be customized <FGM RON> Nope, I don't use GEOS to do printouts :). <GEOS-TIM> I was just wondering if they were comparable with some of the drivers FGM has. <FGM RON> I can't comment on the Shell drivers, not familar with them. <GEOS-TIM> Are there any questions or comments from the audience? Bill has a question <Bill> What is the current version number of FGM and is an upgrade program available? <FGM RON> The current version is V6.5 which is only one byte different from v6.4 (an obscure bug for an obscure printer was fixed). If you have 6.0 then the update does add a few noticable things. <Bill> I think mine is 6.4 <FGM RON> There is an UPDATER for $2 + the $3.50 S&H. Once I get up here on GEnie I'll be uploading it. The UPDATER updates your existing disk. It also has some other handy things on it. If you have 6.4 then you should be OK. <GEOS-TIM> Brenda has a comment, I believe. <Brenda> Tim mentioned the add ons for GEOS. Ron, what are the add-on type things for FGM? <FGM RON> I'm not sure what you mean about add-on, but I'll hazard a guess. There is Clip Art (which is compatible with the ILLUSTRATOR II for TWS), a Font disk, a disk for making keyboard overlays, a calendar template disk. We now have three Clip Art disks and another that covers all of the seasons is almost done. Also keyboard overlays for FGM and CMD devices (like Leroys Cheatsheets). <Brenda> Hardware requirements were brushed over a few times. I wanted to bring up that , and Ron can comment further of course, that FGM runs better on low hardware than GEOS does. So it is much cheaper to get into to start with. <GEOS-TIM> Reub has a question. <Reub> Can you link across and down at the same time? <FGM RON> Not that you can see on the screen. There's only room for three screen in FGM at once (FGM doesn't access the drive while you are working on the hi-res screen like GEOS does). <FGM RON> One thing overlooked is tha if you have a full page of screens (across and down) you can down-link the screens and then load/edit only the left, middle, or right side of the document. For those without FGM, LINKING means connecting several screens across or down. Say you linked three screens across, then you'd have 120 columns across of workspace. Once you saved that set of screens you could work on the next set under, continuing down as far as you want (3.5 screens is about a full sheet of paper). When linked screens are saved in FGM they are saved with names such that when you go to print you only need give FGM the starting name and it will find all of the screens and print them as one large document. All screens are actually saved as individual hi-res screens (32 block, or you can save fewer rows if you wish), thus you could just edit one screen if you wished. It might be easier for some to think of the screens as panels, a'la Newsroom. <GEOS-TIM> Brenda has a question. <Brenda> What did you mean by, "one thing overlooked is that if you have a full page of screens. down link the screens and then load/edit only the left middle or right sides? <FGM RON> Let's say you had three screens across by three screens down saved. You could load any set of three screens down or any set of three screens across. If you were doing a newsletter and you wanted to do columns, you would link screens down, do the left, then center, then right column. Then you could load the top set of screens across and add a masthead or something. <Brenda> I had a problem with this. When you save the screens down, they are named with s.a1 name s.b1 name s.c1 name across, they are s.a1 name s.a2 name s.a3 name. So, if you save them down, and then want to load them across, you can't load them automatically with the LINK. Hmm, I don't know if that came out right... anyway, you have to be aware of how the filenames work if you are trying to do across and down work at the same time. <GEOS-TIM> Reub has a question. We will be going into the next topic after this question. <Reub> When printing linked screens from disk, is there a way to clear the printed screen before the next screen is loaded to be printed? <FGM RON> You could have blank screens loaded. Why would you want to clear a screen (I'm curious, might be a useful addition). <Reub> If the 1st screen is 25 lines and the 2nd is 20, there's 5 lines left over from the 1st screen that will get printed on the 2nd screen <FGM RON> In the above example, save the first screen as 25 rows and save the second as 20 rows. When prompted for HOW MANY ROWS to print, press "f" and FGM will only print however many rows it loads (page 86 in the manual). <GEOS-TIM> Now we ease into the last topic,FGM questions and answers,I guess we've been here. First of all, after this conference, where can a FGM user get help if he/she has problems with FGM? <FGM RON> They can call me at (503) 496-2234. Note that the number (prefix 496) may be different in your manual, it's a change). Days are fine, nights are better. Weekends are fine, again, evenings are best. Up until around midnight West Coast time. I hope to get up here on GEnie and then you'll be able to get help from me here too. <GEOS-TIM> The next very important question: Where can a user purchase the Fun Graphics Machine? <FGM RON> from THE FGM CONNECTION, PO Box 2206, Roseburg OR 97470. The basic cost for the program is $24.95 + $3.50 s&h. The $3.50 s&h is the same whether you order one or ten FGMs (or more), so is a hidden discount. <GEOS-TIM> I do want to point out to those who have not tried FGM, that there is an excellent demo in our library. Filenumbers 16940, 16941, and 16942. The demo is quite entertaining. We are open to more questions, and Brenda has a question. <Brenda> Earlier you said that you use GEOS for the fonts. Why don't you just use GEOS instead of FGM? Also, why not just import these fonts to FGM? <FGM RON> The demo docs also include a list of the FGM support disks. I find FGM a lot easier to use than GEOS, GEOS and I have been in some big battles. Besides, if a glitch comes along and resets the computer all I need do with FGM is reload it and the screens will still be there. Try THAT with GEOS As for importing GEOS fonts into FGM, I've looked into that and talked with Jim Collet, a pure nightmare working with GEOS font files. Still, I may someday do it. <Brenda> I mean why not print to the screen and capture? ie: type abcdefg etc and capture with FGM's option <FGM RON> If you mean type text in GEOS and then capture it into FGM, you don't need to use the (included) FGM SCREEN FINDER program, all you need do is load FGM after resetting the computer (did I understand the question?). <Brenda> uh no it isn't a question... isn't there a way to put stuff at the top of the screen and capture it as a character set in FGM? <FGM RON> Oh... You CAN capture character sets into FGM and save them for your own use. However, FGM will choke on large GEOS fonts if you try to load them into FGMs font buffers. You CAN bring in character sets from various games and things LoadStar has. <GEOS-TIM> The capture of the screen after reset is a nice feature. <FGM RON> A SCREEN FINDER is included with FGM to capture screens left behind by other programs It also lets you try out many parts of the program :). <GEOS-TIM> Well, we are about to go into open forum, where we will be in a more informal setting. I want to thank you Ron for coming in. It has been quite educational! <FGM RON> Thank you Tim and everyone. This really kept me hopping, but was a lot of fun. I'll be hanging around for awhile, although I MUST take a quick break from the keys :D. <GEOS-TIM> Tired fingers, eh. LOL The transcripts should be available in a few days. <FGM RON> Something more pressing than that... I've been sucking down the coffee and Pepsi :D. <GEOS-TIM> It is always good to have someone in that has supported the C= user so well. Yes....so you will be afk for a few.....