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correctly, the Xmodem download(BBS) routine did not work properly. Yes, beacuse I remember someone having to upload me a file using the Punter code. Is there a working version of Xmodem out there. I would rather use it than Punter since Xmodem seems to be more popular. P.S. I'm also looking for a fastload program that will work with this thing. The BBS ML is at the bottom of BASIC. Will a fastload program work with this BBS if the ML is at the bottom of basic? Will any compilers work? I have been told that compilers need that area to stre they code. Please help. Thanks! ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 4 Fri Aug 13, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 08:44 EDT Michael: MS> Ok. Can this be the problem? I'm opening a file such as 'open MS> 2,8,2,"games,p,w"' just before calling the Xmodem MS> download(BBS). You stated that I need not to do this so I'm MS> assuming this is done automatcially. I didn't say that. I said for READing the file (when you use ,#,r) you don't have to add the ',p,r' for example. When you open for write, you absolutely MUST use those entries. In addition, you should check the source code that came in that APPEND file. It seems to me that the ML uses channel 5 to write to the disk, not channel 2. That would explain why nothing is getting written to the file. In other words, check the code. If I'm correct, you will have to ' open 5,8,5,"games,p,w" '. How do you tell from the ML? Look at the section that writes to disk for some code that looks like this: ldx #5 jsr chkout If it is 'ldx #2' your code is correct, but check. Whatever it s for downloads will be the same for uploads. So if you are opening channel 2 for downloads, your example is probably correct. It just kind of sticks with me that Punter and Xmodem shells I've seen generally use 2 for the modem (open 2,2,2,####) and 5 for the files. MS> As far as you saying implement his code, I'm totally confused MS> and don't know where to start. I have to rewrite the U/d MS> section and if my memory serves me correctly, the Xmodem MS> download(BBS) routine did not work properly. Yes, beacuse I MS> remember someone having to upload me a file using the Punter MS> code. Is there a working version of Xmodem out there. I would MS> rather use it than Punter since Xmodem seems to be more MS> popular. That shell works. The bug is subtle and I believe would only affect a call from a BLITZ!ed program. But I have used the shell as a basis for my own when I was first starting out, and it does work. There is also a Wxmodem shell on GEnie that includes Xmodem CRC. The APPEND file you got only does checksum, which is kind of a dinosaur. On the down side, in my opinion, that code is kind of sloppy, but it does the job also, and I know it works too. MS> Will a fastload program work with this BBS if the ML is at the MS> bottom of basic? Will any compilers work? I have been told MS> that compilers need that Compiled programs I've seen include their own runtime package and the code generated is pretty much contiguous, and loads in the normal BASIC program space (for the 64 mode). So I would have to give a qualified ' I suspect it will work' when compiled. It is actually better than that, because there are a LOT of programs that are compiled that use ML.... including BBS programs. As for fast loaders, some do and some don't. PCG Term, which I wrote in the mid 80's, worked with ffastloaders until I made it support different fonts. BellTerm worked (works) fine with fast loaders. Since John Brown kindly uploaded the source to BellTerm, it might pay you to spend the time downloading and examining it as it is 100% ML and includes Xmodem and Punter and calling routines, routines to open files and check the error channel, etc. ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 5 Sat Aug 14, 1993 M.SEABRUM at 01:44 EDT Hello. The compilers that I have, all PD will not compile properly. Other people have told me that compilers need the BOTTOM OF BASIC to work properly. Hmm.. The BBS MAIN ML code is stored there as stated before. I don't program in ML, but from judging from other people programs I'm learning slow. Anyway, I don't know how to move the BBS ML from the bootom of basic to another area of memory because I'm recieving no hel! Does Genie have a HELP ROOM or something? I have compute's ML and Basic relocator on a disk, but no instructions came with the programs. I was thinking I could use the ML relocator to relocate the BBSML, but with no instrcutions I quickly got lost. Why would someone need to relocate Basic?? As far as the Xmodem goes, I will try to download Wxmodem and get that source for Bellterm. I have a book for ML - ML for the ABSOLUTE BEGINNER and I must say it's not very well written. The book was given to me so I can't complain. There's typo's in it to add to the confusion of the beginner. I'm trying to implement a TIMEOUT routine in the BBS. I have a hardcopy of a message you left before, but it was abbreviated and very confusing. In order to get a timeout, how would I go by doing this? I kinda figure by looking at the BBS ML code that it will properly have to be programmed in the Kernal GETIN routine? Correct? When this routine is called, does it wait there until a key is pressed? That looks like the problem to me.. How can I implement a timeout in the kernal routine if this is the case? Editing this ML seems SCARY to say the least. One mess up and that's all she wrote. I have 3 monitor programs, SUpermon+, X-mon, and Bugmon. Is there a monitor out there that will take the confusion out of Hexadecimal? I know it's the base of 16, and makes up half of a byte. But when you get into all of that $c000 stuff, things really begin to get confusing!! Typing something like LDA #25 or LDA 828 would be more simpler. I studied the ML and will go through a ML learning program after I leave here with the files that I seek. (Wxmodem, and Bellter source). Is learning to assign string values hard in ML. Something like in$=(user input). I still can't figure out how the guy get the user input into the variable in$. I know this is the first variable that must be defined after the open statement. As far as the filenumber goes for Append2.... The numbers are correct. 2 is for the disk and 5 is for the serial or modem. Hmm.. I need a ML editor. Tell me this. Can ML disk routines read files from any drives (1541-1581 series?) This guy has a routine in the ML to read files. The problem is that he has them set up as lda #08. I was wondering if I poke a location of the drive I intend to use in location 828 or something. This was I can say lda 828... You see. Something simple. I'm wondering would the routine still work if the drive being accessed is either a 1541, 1541II, 1571, or 1581.?? That's something I will implement in the next version of this most time consuming project. Judging from what I said earlier about the loads of the BBS... I have ML at the bottom of basic but no fastloaders seems to want to work. Hmm.. What would you say the problem is? I have a ton of fastloaders that start at 2049. That's the start of basic right? I have one that starts a 4, and one that starts at 52480. Luckily the BBS pokes are relocatable. At the present time, the MAIN BBS takes 82 seconds to load in. That's 82 seconds too long. Zap load took about 17 seconds and I was very impressed. After the main part if loaded, I can't loader anything else. If I do, all I get is garabage. This included all my fastloaders, including FASTLOAD. Can you suggest a cure for this problem without having to buy commercial equipment. I'm trying to put out a quality BBS. Believe me there's nothing more aggravating than downloading a BBS that does not WORK!! I have done it alot. This BBS is a prime example. More BUGS that a SOUTH AMERCIAN JUNGLE. Very unreliable. I have plans for it though. The author dropped this thing off in PD and I since have cared for it :). Anyway, tell me this. I have modified a Callback validator to work with this thing. The problem is the modem is not hanging up. I'm sending the following. po$="+++":gosub120(output to modem/screen):fork=1to1100:nextk:po$="ATH0":gosub120:fork=1to1100:nextk:return( Return to calling routine) The modem does not hang up. I wonder why? Should I pause before sending the "+++" also? Should I put the whole routine into a loop to insure it get executed? Nah... Ml looks to be fun and challenging... I'm ready to explore. Please help! Hmmm... I think that it. I know I have a big shopping list, but that alone makes your job as SYSOP very respected and entertaining. Any help with Fastloads, Relocating ML, Editing ML without too many hassels such as HEX, or any other of the above questions would be greatly appreciated. I'm making hardcopies of this entire message(s) so please be specific. By the way, did you hear about Mr. James Jordan? Michael Jordan's father. It's a tradegy ... I wonder who, and why? Please respond as soon as POSSIBLE> ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 6 Sat Aug 14, 1993 HOWIE-CBM at 06:20 EDT Michael, I can reply to a part of one question. The probable reason the ATH0 is not working is that the routine is not properly capturing modem control. I would recommend an ever so slight pause between each of the three +'s. So it would be something like: + (pause) + (pause) + After which you should be able to successfully send the ATH. Howie ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 7 Sat Aug 14, 1993 C128.JBEE at 08:17 EDT re:getting input into a string What you do is have a loop that constantly scans the keyboard input buffer, sometimes people set it to one character when using ML, when it reads the "empty" value (88?) it just loops until a key is pressed. Once a key is pressed the value is either stored or displayed. hen you have finished getting the string, you put a 00 after the last byte of the string you just received. When you want to recall the string to the screen you call a Kernal routine that will read the string until it finds the terminating zero. Jim Butterfield had a ML to string routine called "string thing" for the C-128. I do not know if there was one for the C-64. For a lot of general routines that could save you a LOT of time, Compute's "Machine Language Routines for the C-64/128" can't be beat. There are Basic routines for reading ANY disk directory uploaded by Ed Parry (EBBS?). About 1988. Here are a few files online you might find helpful: #3585 Basic Dir (EBBS^) #4774 disassemb.arc #8794 learn-ml.sfx (a few tiny mistakes in this but generally okay) #3297 ml/hex/bin chart ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 8 Sat Aug 14, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 09:10 EDT Michael: MS> I'm learning slow. Anyway, I don't know how to move the BBS ML MS> from the bootom of basic to another area of memory because I'm MS> recieving no help! Does Genie have a HELP ROOM or something? I MS> have compute's ML and Basic relocator on a disk, but no MS> instructions came with the programs. I was thinking I could MS> use the ML relocator to relocate the BBSML I don't know how you can say you are receiving no help. How many replies have we given you so far. The only way I can see we could give you more help would be to write the program for you. I told you you would need a disassembler and that there are at least 2 in our libraries. Did you search for them and download them? At some point you are going to have to help yourself also. I would venture to say that all of the ML programmers who are answering you had a lot less help than you are getting. You need to 1] disassemble the block of code you want to relocate, and 2] reassemble it in the desired location. If you are *lucky*, there will be no address tables used and it will be a straight assembly job. If not, you are simply going to have to learn ML and either diassemble the code you need or write your own. Did the guy who gave you the BBS code not give you the source code for the ML? Can you see where that might look suspicious? MS> get that source for Bellterm. I have a book for ML - ML for the MS> ABSOLUTE BEGINNER and I must say it's not very well written. MS> The book was given to me so I can't complain. There's typo's MS> in it to add to the confusion of the beginner. I'm trying to MS> implement a TIMEOUT routine in the BBS. I have a hardcopy of a MS> message you left before, but it was abbreviated and very MS> confusing. In order to get a timeout, how would I go by doing MS> this? If that message was abbreviated, you had to be the one who abbreviated it. I posted a perfect example of exactly what you wanted done. It was in ML. The GETIN routine compares more to BASIC's GET routine than the INPUT routine. It polls the keyboard. If nothing is there, it just moves on unless you loop. Therefore, as in the example code I gave you, you can use the jiffy timer to have a timed input. Check my code again. I took the time to do that for you, but I can't do that over and over again for the same thing. By all means, grab the source code we pointed you to.... look at it. Study it. I bet the ML programmers here spend an obscene amount of time even now poring over source code to learn... I know I do. MS> I kinda figure by looking at the BBS ML code that it will MS> properly have to be programmed in the Kernal GETIN routine? MS> Correct? When this routine is called, does it wait there until MS> a key is pressed? No, it does not wait, and yes, that is where you will have to do your coding call.. as I said in my previous message and in the previous paragraph. MS> Editing this ML seems SCARY to say the least. One mess up and MS> that's all she wrote. I have 3 monitor programs, SUpermon+, MS> X-mon, and Bugmon. MicroMon is the best one I know of for the C64, tho you cannot expect a monitor to do all the work, and for a large project, there is just no way I would even consider using one. But MicroMon is PD and the very best one I've evr seen. MS> Is there a monitor out there that will take the confusion out MS> of Hexadecimal? I know it's the base of 16, and makes up half MS> of a byte. But when you get into all of that $c000 stuff, MS> things really begin to get confusing!! Typing something like MS> LDA #25 or LDA 828 would be more simpler. You may be making it harder than it is, but as I suggested before, and even gave you the model number for, you need a calculator if you are going to work in 64 mode. However, I can't understand why you are working in 64 mode. Even if you are writing code for the C64, you will still be better off working in 128 mode. There is a monitor built in, you have the hex$ function to obviate the need for a hex calculator, and the operations are faster. Yes, you can write code for the 64 in 128 mode... and the assemblers are more powerful in 128 mode too... Which brings me to the rest of the answer to your question. If you were using an assembler, you would not have to worry about loading hex values as you can assign labels, etc. MS> Is learning to assign string values hard in ML. Something like MS> in$=(user input). I still can't figure out how the guy get the MS> user input into the variable in$. Study the POINTER command in BASIC. It will give you the address in bank 1 of the variable... you can pass that to your ML routine so that it can store info right in the string definition. A couple suggestions here though... first, define the string at the start of your BASIC program to equal the largest number of spaces (up to 255) of the longest possible input string you ever expect. Then *never* assign it a value in BASIC... only in ML. Always terminate it with a zero in ML, and update the length byte in the variable description bytes. If you don't know what all of this is, you need to study that too. Can you see just what a lot you are trying to accomplish. One of the best ways to do it is to get other people's source code and study study study. Many don't release their source code. I have released a lot. Have you got it and studied it. MS> Hmm.. I need a ML editor. Tell me this. Can ML disk routines MS> read files from any drives (1541-1581 series?) This guy has a MS> routine in the ML to read files. The problem is that he has MS> them set up as lda #08. I was wondering if I poke a location MS> of the drive I intend to use in location 828 or something You need to learn ML. I know you are trying, and yes, ML disk routines can do what you suggest if properly written or written to do what you ask. What you need to know is what location is used for the device number. If you find that, you can do just what you ask. The problem you may run into is that the author used a variable instead of a direct load. However, any ML programmer could look at the code and find that information just knowing what is involved in opening files from ML. A particularly good reference for this kind of thing is the Commodore 64 Programmers Reference Guide. MS> po$="+++":gosub120(output to MS> modem/screen):fork=1to1100:nextk:po$="ATH0":gosub120:fork=1to11 MS> Return to calling routine) Howie's answer is probably right on the money... a slight delay after each '+', and at LEAST a 1 second delay AFTER you send all three plus's. Being that you are working in BASIC you may get away w/o the delay betw. the + characters, tho probably not when compiled, but the 1 second delay BEFORE and AFTER the +++ is absolutely required by the modem. You will see that in the modem manual. Did you read that? MS> without too many hassels such as HEX, or any other of the above MS> questions There is not going to be any way to learn ML or do what you are doing without hassles. That is the sweat part of the job that consumes so many thousands of hours on the way to the glory part of a finished project. I have stressed reading... I know you are trying to get the info to do that. There is no way you can learn without it though, including the work of others which you *do* have access to. We'll keep on responding but you are going to have to write the program yourself. ;) ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 9 Sat Aug 14, 1993 C128.JBEE at 22:29 EDT I believe there is an article in the REBOCARDO database (menu option on page 625) about using the pointer command from C-128 mode. ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 10 Sun Aug 15, 1993 M.SEABRUM at 05:05 EDT Thanks for all the help that I recieved. I'm going on now to read and study ML code. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by saying that I recieved no help. That really was not my intentions. Any help with fastloaders for the BBS which stores ML at the bottom of basic will be greatly appreciated. Any suggestions? Is there a relocatable fastloader out there (PD?)? /s ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 11 Sun Aug 15, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 08:56 EDT Michael: MS> Any help with fastloaders for the BBS which stores ML at the MS> bottom of basic will be greatly appreciated. MS> Any suggestions? Is there a relocatable fastloader out there MS> (PD?)? I don't think anyone is going to be able to help you regarding the fastloaders and code under BASIC, but I will tell you this. BellTerm used not only the RAM under BASIC, but also the RAM under the I/O block and under the Kernal too, and it always worked with my Mach 128 cartridge (in 64 mode) and Fast Load too. I don't know why any fast loader would have a problem with that unless it overwrote the fast loader. As for the fast relocators.... There is source code around for just what you want, but it is sizable aand I'm not sure it would be the ideal thing for use within a program. The last thing I would want to do would be to devote a big chunk of memory to just loading files. Another problem some fast loaders do cause is with RS232 for some reason... probably because they change vectors. But here is what a search of our libraries came up with... 5926 FASTLOAD1541 X K.CARAPELLOT 880617 1260 107 5 Desc: software fastload for 1541 1548 TURBO 1541 X MIKEW1 860713 1260 206 9 Desc: Speeds up 128/1541 disk access! And while I was at it... 4033 D/UNASMBLE.SDA X ML-BUG 870514 6300 119 5 Desc: Multi-disk un-assembler. The last may help you generate your own relocatable code from the ML progs available that load places you don't want them to. Of course, this all means you are going to have to study study study to learn how to do this stuff. On the bright side, the more you learn, the easier stuff becomes to learn. ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 12 Mon Aug 16, 1993 M.SEABRUM at 01:04 EDT thanks... how cam i make ml relocatable? that seems very difficult! but again, anything can be accomplished. ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 13 Mon Aug 16, 1993 M.SEABRUM at 01:52 EDT Ok. I have a question that need answering. Please help. We already discussed the Xmodem problem. I can seem to relate to what you were saying. However, I'm confused when you said implememnt George Hugs NMI command and things SSHOULD work if it was a TIMING PROBLEM. Well, I'm interested. Now, exactly what is a NMI and what will it do to my program? How do I disable them? You said I will have to disable them right before accessing does. So how would I enable and disable them? I need the info on how to implement them into the program. I will now do my part and loading the ML and seeing what's the starting and ending address.. Also see if there is docs which I seriously doubt. By the way, I really do appreciate all the help that you have given me so far. Thanks alot. ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 14 Mon Aug 16, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 08:56 EDT Michael: MS> implememnt George Hugs NMI command and things SSHOULD work if MS> it was a TIMING PROBLEM. I said implement George Hug's wedge code. It is a whole little NMI interrupt routine that corrects the weakness of the resident ROM routine. It will solve your problem IF you problem is a timing problem. However, I don't remember what your problem was at this point. MS> exactly what is a NMI and what will it do to my program? How do MS> I disable them? You said I will have to disable them right MS> before accessing does. So how would I enable and disable them? MS> I need the info on how to implement them into the program. I MS> will now do my part and loading the ML and seeing what's the MS> starting and ending address.. Also see if there is docs which MS> I seriously doubt. NMI is Non-Maskable Interrupt, which is a misnomer. They are maskable in that you can disable them. It doesn't do anything TO your program, but actually FOR your program. It processes incoming bits over the modem into whole, 8 bit bytes, which your code can process. George Hug's code starts with a JMP table that you use to access the ENABLE and DISABLE routines. His code also changes the CHKIN and CHKOUT vectors to automatically enable and disable the interrupts as I recall. Since I don't use CHROUT or GETIN for my modem code, but instead enter the routines at other points, I call DISABLE before doing any DOS access and ENABLE afterward. There are docs for the routine in the Transactor magazine in which it appeared... February 1989 I believe. Why do you need the starting and ending address of the wedge? I don't have it at my fingertips but don't see where it would be terribly useful to you. More useful would be the JMP table entry points... I can post those when I dig thru my mags to find the article. Just out of curiousity, you are posting elsewhere in the BB an offer for registered copies of your program. Is it that ready, or are you putting the cart before the horse. It sounds to me like you have a lot of plans not yet realized. And I and any of the staff here are more than happy to help where we can. You are what makes our time online so enjoyable! Keep 'em coming! ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 15 Mon Aug 16, 1993 M.SEABRUM at 22:14 EDT Hello again. The BBS is ready.. Release friday. All I'm trying to do is make this version better than it already is. That's why I re-wrote the transfer section and add new protoc.. If that does not work for me, I'll just keep the old transfers section. In other words, I'm doing last minute touch ups.. It's looking more and more like I will have to try to tackle Wxmodem. By the way, I met a guy today that have a # of ML books for sale. They include Compute's ML routines for C64, Compute's Telecomputing, Machine Lanuage for beginners Mapping the C64/and 128, and 64/128 Assembly Lanuage. He had a ton of them, especially for the C128... I'm not interested in the C128 at the moment though.. Say, will ML that I write for 64 mode also work in 128 mode? That is, if ML was stored in the correct address in 128 mode. I know the two have diffrent adresses and all. I kinda figured that 64 ML opcodes should work in 128 as well. Please post the JMP table of Mr. Hug's 2400 baud routine. My problem with Xmodem was that the BBS could not download files from a user, but it could upload them. I don't know if it was a timing problem or not... Talk to you later.. ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 16 Tue Aug 17, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 08:31 EDT Michael: MS> have a # of ML books for sale. They include Compute's ML MS> routines for C64, Compute's Telecomputing, Machine Lanuage for MS> beginners Mapping the C64/and 128, and 64/128 Assembly MS> Lanuage. He had a ton of them, especially for the C128... I'm MS> not interested in the C128 at the moment though.. Say, will ML MS> that I write for 64 mode also work in 128 mode? That is, if ML MS> was stored in the correct address in 128 mode. I know the two MS> have diffrent adresses and all. I kinda figured that 64 ML MS> opcodes should work in 128 as well. Post this guy's phone number here. There are a lot of us scratching for these books, particularly the 128 Mapping book. However, if you have any plans ever to move to the 128, you should SNAP these books up before someone else sees the guy's ad! As for code written for 64 mode working in 128 mode, the answer has to be a posibble maybe. While the opcodes are all the same, the architectue is not. There is a lot of bank switching you have to learn to do in 128 mode. It is sort of like swapping the Kernal and BASIC and I/O in and out on the 64, but a little more complicated. It is a bear to learn but kind of fun once you do. MS> Please post the JMP table of Mr. Hug's 2400 baud routine. Here it is: XX00 jmp setup; set up the timning based on the open XX03 jmp inable; enable modem after dos access XX06 jmp disable; disable modem before dos access XX09 jmp rsget; get a byte from the modem XX0C jmp rsout; send a byte to the modem The XX would be whatever page in memory you assembled the code at. The magaizine article usd $1a, so it would be $1a00, $1a03, $1a06, etc. Immediately after the jmp table is a table of speed settings for the differ ent baud rates. strt24 .word $01cb; 459 start-bit times strt12 .word $0442; 1090 strt03 .word $1333; 4915 ; full24 .word $01a5; 421 full-bit times full12 .word $034d; 845 full03 .word $0d52; 3410 These timing values set the timing for the NMI transfer routine for each bit. Some programs provide a means of 'tweaking' the baud rate. That is, allowing minor adjustments to the start-bit detection timing. So if you want to do this, the value in the 'strt##' tables above are the ones you would tweak. O, and a word table appears in memory in low byte high byte order, tho the source code doesn't look like that. MS> My problem with Xmodem was that the BBS could not download MS> files from a user, but it could upload them. That definitely sounds like timing to me IF it is not working at the higher baud rates. If it won't even work at 300 baud, then you probably have something wrong with your Xmodem protocol code. The WXModem you mention might be an excercise, but I don't think there are enough people using that to make it worthwhile, tho the code with it does include an Xmodem CRC shell too. You can make that decision at the menu level tho. (in other words, if you don't want to support Wxmodem, just don't offer it as an option on the menu). ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 17 Tue Aug 17, 1993 M.SEABRUM at 21:13 EDT One question. You mention source code. Why is this code so valuable? Is it like a BLZ program, but you can actually list it and sees what makes the program tick? I'm downloaded half the Bellterm source last night and will try to download the other half tonight. It mentioned something about protocols being in there.. How can I use this source code and implelemnt it into my program(if I'm allowed to do this)? As far as Wxmodem goes, I tested it and found out there's no TIMEOUT routine. It just hangs when SENDING and RECIEVING a file is the caller never actually uploads a file. This code will do me no good. It seems to me that ML is very difficult to edit. Everything seems to be so TIGHT! How could one go in and change things around? You were right when you said I should be using the 128 monitor. I picked up Compute's First/Second Books on the 128 at my local library. One of the books had a section talking about the 128 monitor and how to take the confusion out of HEX. I understand that now. It also said you can change the ML code by listing it some way and using the screen editor to change anything that you like. Ok, that's find and dandy.. Since everything is so TIGHT, I kinda figured another method had to be used. Someone told me that Monitors were better than assemblers for smaller applications. They also said that assemblers were very difficult to work with. This is the reason I was stuck on Monitors. In my opinion, symbolic assemblers seems to be easier to use. However, they do look very confusing for the first- timers. Can you point me into the right direction? I need a good symbolic assembler with DOCS... How do programmers get the symbolic assemblers to assemble code? Disassemble code? ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 18 Tue Aug 17, 1993 CBM-ED [e.g.bell] at 22:50 EDT Michael: MS> source code. Why is this code so valuable? Is it like a BLZ MS> program, but you can actually list it Source code is what humans work with to write ML programs. You use an assembler to transform it to code that the computer works with. It is the source code which dictates where a program loads and executes. With source code, you can assemble a program wherever you want it (within the limits of the computer) MS> downloaded half the Bellterm source last night and will try to MS> download the other half tonight. It mentioned something about MS> protocols being in there.. How can I use this source code and MS> implelemnt it into my program You can use it to help you learn ML and protocols. BellTerm was written as I write my programs... interdependent. I don't write standalone shell protocols. That is because I don't write them for others to use. Thus you can (if you get permission from JBEE) use the code after filling in the routines that are needed to get the protocol to run. I would recommend you use a shell, modifying it to get it working for you, using my code to learn what your code needs. My code probably would require someone more experienced to implement in their own program, tho it could be done. MS> It seems to me that ML is very difficult to edit. Everything MS> seems to be so TIGHT! How could one go in and change things MS> around? It is only difficult if you don't have the source. A good disassembler would help you along in this, but you have to realize that even some of your questions show how far you have to go. You'll get there. Just keep studying! MS> Someone told me that Monitors were better than assemblers for MS> smaller applications. They also said that assemblers were very MS> difficult to work with I think that may be true *if* you don't ever need to edit the code or change it. I personally will do that for VERY!!! small pieces of code, and I'm talking SMALL. Anything that you will ever need to do again is better assembled. That person who said assemblers are difficult to work with is simply mistaken. MS> Can you point me into the right direction? I need a good MS> symbolic assembler with DOCS... How do programmers get the MS> symbolic assemblers to assemble code? Disassemble code? Get that copy of Compute's 2nd book of ML. There is code in there for LADS, which I used to learn ML. It is one of the best learning tools available for learning ML IMO, and you get a symbolic assembler to boot. (that is, in addition to the book). And oodles of commented source code to tell you what is going on. MS> How do programmers get the symbolic assemblers to assemble MS> code? Disassemble code? If you get the book and read it, you will get the answer to this one. ------------ Category 5, Topic 33 Message 19 Thu Aug 19, 1993 C128.JBEE at 04:19 EDT > M.SEABRUM at 21:13 EDT The reason source code is so valuable is you can easily edit it and recompile it to a new memory location. Also, a lot of program authors put comments (notes) in their source code so they can remember what the