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********** Topic 20 Sat Mar 22, 1986 S.RICH (Forwarded) Sub: compiler question! looking for Mr. Goodcompiler! ********** ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 1 Sat Mar 22, 1986 S.RICH (Forwarded) Deb, Courtney, or anyone else who can help: I should be very interested in getting a "tear-and-compare" of the Blitz-128 compiler and the Abacus Basic-128 Compiler, before plunking down the big ones for one of them? If it's too long to post here, feel free to leave me E-Mail. Thanks Simon ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 2 Sat Mar 22, 1986 WHIRT [WDHIRT] (Forwarded) Simon, I've had Basic 128 from Abacus for a while and I am very happy with it. If your familiar with their Basic 64 compiler, you won't have any problem making the change to the Basic 128 compiler. One thing with Basic 128 you have to be very careful about is when transferring files around. A Basic 128 program transmitted over the modem using the Xmodem can get padded and will refuse to work on the receiving end. lso the DOS shell adds an extra character at the end of a file when opying which causes the program not to work. I've had the second occur a couple of times. Despite these "problems", Basic 128 is a very powerful compiler and I would recommend it whole heartedly. Bill ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 3 Sat Mar 22, 1986 ZELNICK [TIGER] (Forwarded) I am very happy with the BASIC 128, it is a very good compiler, I had one problem: when I compiled my basic program, in the second pass it said: SYSTEM ERROR 20 - COPY PROTECTED. any explanations? thanks. ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 4 Sat Mar 22, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) In my experience both Blitz128 and Basic 128 work well. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between the two. I find Blitz easier to work with and it passes varables between files easier. But, it is also more expensive. Too expensive actuially. Basic 128 is a fair program at a fair price. My suggestion: if you really have no real favorite, go with Basic 128. If you have used and like Blitz, then stick with Blitz 128. Hope that helps. It's like cars. They all have 4 wheels and keep you dry in the rain. Some are prettier than others and get you where you are going a bit faster. ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 5 Sun Mar 23, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Another note about BLITZ...it uses a *USER PORT* dongle...so if you are testing any communications software, you can imagine what a pain that is! I've also heard of other folks having better success rates with BASIC 128 in hybrid BASIC/ML variations and in general compatibility. ** ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 6 Sun Mar 23, 1986 S.RICH (Forwarded) Deb: A USER PORT dongle??????? Now THAT's exotic! Simon ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 7 Sun Mar 23, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) Deb is right. I forgot about that dongle. The first thing I did when I got the prm was deblitz it and remove that pain in the neck routine that checked for the dongle. I change my recomendation...maybe Basic 128 would be best. ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 8 Mon Mar 24, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Oh, Courtney.....are you telling me that Unblitzing programs WORK on the C-128 BLITZ, too?! Care to elaborate for us??? ** ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 9 Mon Mar 24, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) Hi Deb-- Someone wrote one that deblitz's 128 version very nicely. There is some concern about if it is legal...or PD or wherever. Do you the status of DeBlitzer's for the 64? If those are Ok, then I shall assume the 128 version too and will upload it. courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 10 Tue Mar 25, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Courtney ... LEGAL, yes, a deBlitz is legal. Whether its non-copyrighted or not, is the real question. There were *2* deBlitz's for the 64, one was a custom hacker tool, called deBlitz, and available first. The other was a commercial product called UnBlitz, from MegaSoft, I think, don't really remember. So, the first is PD, the second was not. Tracing the sources of some of these programs is very interesting....! But, perhaps you would know more about the source of the 128 deBlitz? I've neither seen nor heard of a commercial product - but that doesn't really mean it doesn't exist. ** ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 11 Tue Mar 25, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) Deb-- the deBlitz for the 128 was written by a demented 14 yr old hacker here in Honolulu. I'll contact him and ask if he minds it being placed in the public domain. I have one of two beta-copies he passed out. I'll let ya know. courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 12 Wed Mar 26, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Question of the hour: Are 14 year old hackers any more demented than 30 or 40 year old hackers? *grin!* ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 13 Thu Mar 27, 1986 SZARETSKY [Steve Z] (Forwarded) Yes, 14 year old hackers are MUCH more demented than 30 or 40 year olds, especially when you're a high school teacher!!!!!!! ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 14 Fri Mar 28, 1986 S.LEWIS (Forwarded) $#%#%#$%""'&%'' thing dumped me after a nice explanation of Basic 128, so I'll recap: It offers two levels of optimization, plus options for p-code and true ML compilation. It will configure the compiled program to operate in just about ANY memory map you need and interfaces nicely with ML. It will just about be impossible to "de-Basic 128" one of these things given the many options available to you, so your program security is not sacrificed in the least by demented hackers of any age. It is a *STEAL* at under $60 compared to Blitz at about a hundred and offers so many features for the bucks that it would be a shame not to have a copy! It is SENSITIVE to any sort of padding at the end of a compiled program which will cause minor inconveniences when transfering programs from disk to disk or over the phone. PUNTER transfers will NOT pad the end of the compiled program file and will allow modem to modem copies (Sorry, DEB!?!?). A system error 20 indicates that you have a bogus copy (shame on YOU) OR you have a VERY EARLY release of the program which apparently did not have any copy protection applied to the diskette. Abacus was totally helpful on the phone and sent me a copy NEXT DAY UPS the same day I phoned them after supplying them with the registration number from the original diskette. ---------- Nobody has yet mentioned the SM-Compiler 128 - is it not generally available across our great land? It is not nearly as difficult to use as Basic 128, but, unfortunately, will not compile certain C128 keywords and requires specific format for others. I will not judge this product too harshly at this moment because the version I had was not completed. I do not recall the cost, but believe it was under $50. So much for compilers... without them, life would be a slow basic program file. Steve PS-Please DO upload that de-blitzer as I want to peek into a couple of Blitz'd 128 programs! ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 15 Fri Mar 28, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Hey ... don't apologize to me, Xmodem's penchant for padding is a pain! ...but its fast, and it works! Steve, thank you so much for the details on Basic 128!! Now, did I read you right...it compiles into 6502 opcodes...???!!! ** ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 16 Sat Mar 29, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) I'm awaiting permission from the author to upload the Blitz128 de-blitzer. As soon as he gives it, I'll put in the library. courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 17 Sat Mar 29, 1986 S.LEWIS (Forwarded) Yes, oh dear SYSOP of the lamp... Or at least that is what is says it does and I have no reason to dis- believe. Please keep in mind, however, that it is compiling a BASIC program, and will do some really wierd things to keep the syntax of basic working... Such as do some crazy stuff with variables and strings!!! Steve ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 18 Tue Apr 15, 1986 BOBR [Bob Retelle] (Forwarded) Deb... yes, the second mode of BASIC128 compiled directly into native 6502 code, but at a price of larger object programs... The 'p-code' version, while slower (it has to be interpereted at run-time), is smaller... It's nice to have the choice..! Bob R ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 19 Thu Apr 17, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) WHY is the object larger if its REALLY 6502 codes???? ** ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 20 Thu Apr 24, 1986 S.LEWIS (Forwarded) Basic code to say, print "hello" takes up: 2 bytes for link address, two bytes for line number, one byte for statement end, one byte for the PRINT token, two bytes for quotations, and five bytes for the "hello." That makes a grand total of 13 bytes. A quick and dirty ML program to do the same thing might look like: LDX #$05 (2 bytes) LDA zzzz,X (3 bytes) JSR FFD2 (3 bytes) DEX (1 byte ) BNE (line 7) (2 bytes) RTS (1 byte ) .BYT o .BYT l .BYT l .BYT e .BYT h (5 bytes) This ugly ML routine takes up 17 bytes to accomplish the same task. The compiler has to basically do exactly what I have done here to end up in the same place. If you were to do any arithmetic, the resulting ML would probably be much longer. Out of curiosity, may pull out BASIC 128 and play with it and see what it ends up with as far as code lengths are concerned... Steve ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 21 Thu Apr 24, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Good Point, Steve....I suppose that any translation, directly from Basic just won't make good compact code! deb! ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 22 Thu Apr 24, 1986 RICKERS [Rickers] (Forwarded) If you're willing to use ML routines provided in the OS on the 128 you can use.... JSR PRIMM TXT 'HELLO' DFB 0 .... Thats 9 bytes.... PRIMM is located at $FF7D Rick ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 23 Thu Apr 24, 1986 S.LEWIS (Forwarded) PRIMM is the answer on the 128 machine but the 64 and other Commies don't have it. I'd almost be willing to bet that the Basic 128 compiler doesn't even use it! And PRIMM doesn't address the need to perform math of any kind or memory shuffling or nice convenient variables (in place of tables of data). Steve ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 24 Fri Apr 25, 1986 RICKERS [Rickers] (Forwarded) Yes, in both cases a constant is being printed.... 'hello'. No more,no less. ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 25 Tue Sep 16, 1986 DEBS-GUEST [MIKEM] (Forwarded) While re-reading the messages in this topic I saw something that could stand repeating again <and again>. Programs compiled with BASIC-128 are very susceptible to Xmodem padding (those little CONTROL-Z critters appended to the file). If you download a program and it does not run as specified (either just sits there with a blank screen or dumps you to the monitor), check for the padding and remove it! My experience has been that Sixth Sense strips padding automatically. BT PRO-128 does not strip, but the padding can be removed through the editor functions. (Correct me if I'm wrong). -Mike ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 26 Tue Sep 16, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Mike....right, BTPro's full screen buffer editor will allow you to strip out the padding manually. <<Or anything else you want to strip>> Every once in a while we get files uploaded with the WRONG characters used as padding...BTPro allows you to judge for yourself what you are looking at and delete just what you specify. On things which pad with spaces or ###'s, automatic stripping just won't work. <<Tho we try to catch these and re-upload before they are made public...>> ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 27 Tue Sep 16, 1986 KEVIN-S. [KeS] (Forwarded) Grrrr..... ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 28 Tue Sep 16, 1986 SURVIVOR [S. Gutknecht] (Forwarded) DOES not ARC.210 have a ""padding stripper"" for any program? (((((Just use BLITZ!)))))) ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 29 Tue Sep 16, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) I just recieved "Basic 128". Is this thing really as bad as it seems?!?!? It won't run in the FAST mode because of what ABACAS says is a bug in the 1571 ROM. It kicks out errors right and left and maybe successfully compiles once in 4 or 5 tries. Am I alone or is this a good example of: bug-ware Courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 30 Wed Sep 17, 1986 RICKERS [Rickers] (Forwarded) Chrs$(0) and Chr$(26) are the only valid pad characters for Xmodem. Any terminal program that uses characters other than these should be corrected. ( Deb.... have you seen any uploads with extraneous pad chars??? ) Rick ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 31 Wed Sep 17, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Yes, Rick....####'s and spaces and CTRL A's. I agree, its messy, but its a fact. ** ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 32 Wed Sep 17, 1986 SURVIVOR [S. Gutknecht] (Forwarded) COMMODORE =/= (not equal) VALID XMODEM. ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 33 Thu Sep 18, 1986 RICKERS [Rickers] (Forwarded) Hopefully we don't have terminal programs in our database that do this.... Sheesh!. <grin> Rickers. ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 34 Thu Sep 18, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) <<gulp>> That's what we're trying to find out right now, Rick. I *think* that CXTERM is one that does... ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 35 Thu Sep 18, 1986 RICKERS [Rickers] (Forwarded) I'll have to pull it down and check it.... if so, I'll correct it if possible. Rickers ---------- Category 14, Topic 20 Message 36 Tue Oct 07, 1986 GBARRETT [VISION100] at 23:15 CDT GEE... ...no GEnie, actually... -with this re-construction I had to re-read all the OLD messages and one just flashed before my eyes... COURTNEY, if you're still among us...did you ever get the OK for the 128 deBlitzer(don't remember it in the Library!)...if so, could u upload? (always a sucker for a good deblitzer!) -GaryB (sweeping away the cobwebs in this section!) Category 14, Topic 20 Message 38 Wed Oct 08, 1986 CHARRINGTON at 19:48 PDT Re: the 128 de-compiler. The kid that wrote it asked I wait until he fancied up the menu's etc....before releasing. I forgot to check back with hi. I'll get right on it and let you know. Courtney