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<C> 1994 by GEnie ========================================================================== This file is brought to you by The Commodore 64/128 RoundTable on GEnie This file may be published or excerpted in User Group newsletters providing credit is given in this manner: "Copyright 1994 by GEnie From the Commodore 64/128 RoundTable File#:#####" This file maybe be distributed, if distributed whole and unaltered, on <RETURN>, <S>croll, <Q>uit ? non-profit BBSs or non-profit networks. For more information on GEnie call by modem: 1-800-638-8369 (8-N-1 300/1200/2400) Enter: HHH Then reply: xtx99018,commrt Then enter: Commodore And enjoy! ========================================================================== On February 7, 1995 the Commodore RTC had two guest speakers: Peter Fiset from Performance Peripherals, Inc. and Paul Gardner-Stephen the author of 64NET. Paul was communicating from Adelaide, South Australia via internet and a node in Arizona. The topic of discussion was 64NET. This is the program that allows a Commodore 64/128 user to access PC hardrives. The evening was spent exploring the different ways to use 64NET. If you have an old XT or 286 that you find you use sitting around, this is the conference that you want to download.s GEOS-TIM (Tim Hewelt) was the host for the night, and THE.OUTLAW (Cam Stewart) edited these transcripts. =============================================================================== <GEOS-TIM> Our guest tonight are Peter Fiset and Paul Gardner-Stephens. Peter is the designer and owner of such great hardware developments as Ramdrive, BBG Ram, BBU battery backup, and the most recent addition: BB RTC. Welcome Peter. <Peter Fiset> Hello Tim. <GEOS-TIM> Peter has brought a guest that is communicating from Australia. Paul Gardner-Stephens has written a program that is being used in Australia. It is called 64NET, and is the topic for tonight. Welcome Paul. <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Hello :) <GEOS-TIM> Paul- I guess the first question is.. What is 64NET? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> 64net is a system for the C64/C65/C128 and IBM compatible computer systems which lets your commodore 8bit computer take advantage of the large storage devices of the IBM compatible computers. The access to this storage is also much faster than regular 15xx drives. <GEOS-TIM> I understand that 64Net is being used in Australia. How long has it been out? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> I first started work on 64NET in 1992, and the first "public" release was in late 1993 (v1.46) <GEOS-TIM> With this program, can you run C= programs from the PC hard drive, or are you limited to data files? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> You can LOAD,SAVE, OPEN & CLOSE to the PC drives. So , yes, you can run programmes directly from the PC's drive. You can also give the files "proper" 16 char names. <GEOS-TIM> Outlaw has a question.... <Outlaw> Are you saying you've found away to use an IBM HD without the CMD's controller chip? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> no. 64NET operates by using a cable and a software wedge or replacement kernel in the C64/C128. The PC does all the "hard" work. <GEOS-TIM> Doc has a question... <Doctor> Greetings, Mr Gardner. I was curious as to how compatible your system is on the Commodore software side. <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Obviously not a great deal of software is compatible when using the wedge (especially in C64 mode) would Work <Doctor> In particular does the I/O functions of this cable interfere with other functions of the computer, such as modem I/O. <Paul Gardner-Stephen> For modem I/O, 64NET will interfere, unless you are using a swiftlink, or a 64NET acceletor card. For software compatibility, 64NET in combination with the replacement ROM's will work with most software, with the exception of some fastloaders and a few programs which are "operating system unfriendly" and assume particular drive information <Doctor> It sounds like this system isn't what you'd call JiffyDOS compatible. <Paul Gardner-Stephen> 64NET will in fact work with Jiffy DOS, when using the 64NET patches to the JD Kernel. The Patch program will be available soon for those who have a PROM burner, or proof of JD ownership. OH.. and after all, JD is handy, but it isn't the whole world! <GEOS-TIM> We will be running through several topics tonight....we sort of jumped the gun on compatibility... Our next topic is How does it Work? After that we will be getting into compatibility....then Practical considerations, followed by future developments So lets go into the next topic First, I guess we should ask....What hardware requirements are there? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> A C64/C65/C128, and some sort of IBM compatible computer. An XT with say 512KB is quite adequate. A HDD is prefered, but 64NET will also happily run from Floppy disks! So in other words for as low as A$75 you can have a hard-disk for your C64! which can take SCSI,IDE,MFM,ESDI or whatever! <GEOS-TIM> Is there any limit to size as far as the hard drive is concerned? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Nope, you can theoritically have an unlimited capacity. I have my IBM on a network at University occasionaly where I have approx 14GB of disk online. BTW.. A$75 approx = $55US I think. <Peter Fiset> WOW <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Files can be upto 2billion blocks. <GEOS-TIM> So exactly what goes on when one uses 64 NET? How is the C= looking at the program? And what is the IBM doing? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> From the C64, 64NET just appears as another device number (anwhere between 4 and 255). :) The IBM can either display a "network console" or run 64net in the background. The two are connected by a cord which goes from the C64's user port to the IBM's printer port (any one) <GEOS-TIM> Snogpitch has a question. <Snogpitch> How many C-64's can be hooked up to the PC? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Upto four C64/C65/C128's (any combination) can be connected to a single PC. This is limited only by the fact that you cant get 5 printer ports on an IBM! Multi-user operation can have network style "logins" with a password option. <GEOS-TIM> OUTLAW has a question <Outlaw> I take it in order to make this work, you have to buy an IBM.. why would I really want to? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> To "purify" the Evil IBM's soul by allowing it become a humble servant of a C64 or C128 :) And also to get you a dirt cheap C64/C128 hard0disk <Peter Fiset> Excellent <Outlaw> if I'm going the route to buy an IBM, I'd prefer to use it as such.. I can't see the cost effectiveness here.. if you can find one <Paul Gardner-Stephen> What can you use a 4.77Mhz XT with 512KB for? other than 64NET and maybe PACMAN? Here in Australia you can easily find second hand XT's and stuff at Computer Auctions or in the "Trading Post" newspaper, I'm sure there are similar publications over there You can pick up such a computer for about A$25 with a 20MB hard-disk. And many of the people have a PC already (for work or whatever) <GEOS-TIM> Doc has a question. <Doctor> How fast does data come from the PC into the Commodore? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Depending on your setup, it can be as fast as 45KB/seconds. However with a "bog standard" C64 rates of upto 10KB/sec can be expected. and approx 18KB/sec with a C128 in "fast" mode. <Paul Gardner-Stephen> The C65 clocks approx 32KB/second. oh.. the 45KB/sec is with a C64 and Flash/8 .. I forgot to mention is 100% !! <Peter Fiset> Super! <GEOS-TIM> Lets ease into compatibility,again. How compatible is 64NET with my favorite program...GEOS? I know you have a lot of GEOS users over in Australia...what kind of feedback have you been getting? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> 64NET Drivers are available for GEOS, which allows you to have 1541,1571 ,1581 and possibly "native" partitions. <GEOS-TIM> that was my next question. LOL <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Several utilities are included eg 64net MOVE, 64NET Config etc. ll copies of 64net. The GEOS drivers are not yet freely available as we have yet to negotaite the royalties with the GEOS programmer who wrote them. btw.. "Native" partitions refers to 64NET Native, not CMD HD partitions. 64NET Native partitions can be approx 2GB <GEOS-TIM> How are they different? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> 64NET Native partitions can be upto 2GB, as compared to a mere 16MB. <GEOS-TIM> Doc has a question. <Doctor> Commodore DOS uses 16 character filenames, while the PC only uses 8 characters with a three character extension. Do you reconcile the filenames? Also will you be providing a "programmer's" guide? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> 64NET allows full 16 character filenames via several methods. A "Programmers Reference" will be made available for 64net. <Doug Cotton @ CMD> With such large 'native' partitions, how do you get around the track and sector pointer compatibility issues for block read and write commands? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Simple! Track, sector, and the optional "head" or "extra/spare" field. <Doug Cotton @ CMD> You mean the side variable? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> yes.. It is sort of like some of the early SFD drives.. I won't go into details here as there are quite a few of them! <GEOS-TIM> Doc has a question. <Doctor> Are files, like text, that are saved from the Commodore still accessable by the PC in its own native mode? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Yes, the 64NET saved files a small header which can be removed with an included utility. This system works both ways, and MessyDOS files are available from the C64 also. I can dump in a small sample directory if people would like a look? DH0 "/64NET " 64NET 0 "UTILS": DIR 147 "1!FLIBB": VOL 2 "STARTUP SEQUENCE": PRG 745 "64NET.DOC": IBM xxxx BLOCKS LISTED. xxxxxx BLOCKS FREE. I have left bits out of the dir as it was REALLY long. <Doug Cotton @ CMD> Hmmm... what's the filetype for VOL? ;) <Paul Gardner-Stephen> VOL represents an archive, in this case a ZIPCODE archive. These can be decompressed just by LOADing them! The decompressed archive is stored in a special temporary directory. <Doug Cotton @ CMD> So there are compression and decompression utilities included as well? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> The decompression and compression is a part of 64NET itself, and will decompress almost any archive type you configure it to (it comes pre-configered). Some of the default supported types include PKZIP 2.04g, ARJ, LHA/LZH and ZIPCODE. <GEOS-TIM> Doc has another question. <Doctor> Is the 64Net compatible with the 1541 disk images that some of the 64 emulators on the IBM use? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Yes! as well as .D71 , .D81 and .DHD file types. 64NET will allow sector read and writes to these images as well as file acces. .d71 are 1571 images , and .d81 are 1581 images etc... .dhd are CMD Native partition images. 64NET can also use the .T64 Tape images <GEOS-TIM> Okay, Lets say I have an XT with a HD with 20 megs..... I am ready to boot up my GEOS. It is in a partition on that hard drive. What steps do I need to go through to get both the C= and IBM going, and be up and running? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> If you have the 64NET replacement ROM's in your C64/C128 all you have to do is run 64NET on the IBM (this can be done automatically on boot-up). Then all you would do is run the 64NET version of RBOOT which would load GEOS from the PC. GEOS would then start normally, but with one or more drive configured to 64NET. <GEOS-TIM> What does it take to get the 64 NET replacement Roms? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> They can be ordered with your registeration of 64NET. at a minimal cost for the ROM <GEOS-TIM> Okay, I guess that brings up the question: to buy....where, and how much? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> For you guys in the USA Peter is the guy to see! The final price has yet to be decided upon depending on current exchange rates and postage and stuff. But it should not be more than US$75 (with no ROM) at a guess. <GEOS-TIM> Peter, Do we have a projected time when it will be ready for purchase? <Peter Fiset> One to two weeks from this date I will have "keys" for sale of the Beta version. All upgrades to newer version will be free form a BBS system or from GENIE. The product is constantly being upgraded and new features are being added at this time. The unregistered version is limited in function but is free to try for anyone. <Doug Cotton @ CMD> Will someone be able to buy the complete package, or will they only be able to buy a key and have to download the software from somewhere? <Peter Fiset> The only limitation to the free trial version is that you cannot save to the PC's HDD. The complete system can be purchased at one time. <GEOS-TIM> Doc has a question. <Peter Fiset> The complete package will include a KEY, the latest version and a printed manual. <Doctor> What are "key's?" And will the cabling for the 64 and the PC come with the package? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> The KEY file is a small file which contains your registration info and allows you to use all the features of 64NET (including SAVE) With this method, you can easily upgrade your software to the latest version without having to call us directly. Which means that you get updates more often and faster & cheaper! The KEY file is in no way a hardware dongle, it is purely software. <GEOS-TIM> Gaelyne has a question. Gaelyne,by the way, will be visiting Australia soon. <Gaelyne> Hi Paul. I would like to know At what version are the docs at now (version of 64Net) and how soon we could expect (USER - friendly) documentation for current versions? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> The current version of the docs is 1.80. The manual will soon be reogranised into a more "logical" order and format as soon as Russell catches up with all the "new" features. Also a German version of the manual will soon be ready. <Gaelyne> What does "mounting" a disk mean? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> "mounting" a disk is the process where you tell 64net to effectively change "partitions" to a .D64 file. (or .d71/81) <Gaelyne> Thanks!!! <Paul Gardner-Stephen> no prob! <GEOS-TIM> I understand there are some new developments for 64NET, Peter. Can you tell us about any of them? <Peter Fiset> Yes, there will be some hardware enhance ments to the system that will allow for RAMDRive/RAMLink level of compatibility with programs. Of course these will be available at an additional cost. At this time development is under way. So I really can't say much about the hardware details. I will keep the GEnie users posted of availability through the BBS system. I understand that a support area for Performance Peripherals, Inc. is being created now. Also, 64NET upgrade documentation will include information regarding the availability and price structure. Additionally registered KEY owners will be sent a flyer indicating the availablity also. I am happy to have found Paul or vice versa because this project has really been a lot of fun! So perhaps I will blurb my address and telephone No. now. <GEOS-TIM> Go ahead, Pete <Peter Fiset> Performance Peripherals, Inc., 5 Upper Loudon Rd., Louodnville, NY 12211, VOICE & FAX: 518-436-0485. <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Incidentaly a full list of the official distributors of 64NET can be found in the documentation for 64net. <Peter Fiset> Paul, let the international users know where they can get 64NET in addition to being able to download it from GEnie (freeware version). <Peter Fiset> Oh yes, the cable can simply be made at home as desrcribed in the documentation or can be purchased from PPI. 64NET is available through uuencoded email via gardners@ist.flinders.edu.au, rja@dce.vic.gov.au and several of the popular ftp sites. <Paul Gardner-Stephen> I don't have a list of the ftp sites handy, but I can provide one a little later. <Peter Fiset> Since there will be much new information regarding 64NET I will post messages on GEnie in addition to posting the upgrades to the software for downloading. Users should look for 64NET support under the PPI area of GEnie Commodore BBS. <GEOS-TIM> Reub has a question. <Reub> Does the replacement ROMs replace the JD ROM? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> There are two replacement ROM's. one is a "vanilla" kernel and 64net. This is available as a binary. The second is available only as a patch, and patches the JD kernel to add 64NET support. Perhaps in the future we may come to an agreement with CMD to provide the combo as a binary. The patched kernel should be able to be loaded in using a RAMDrive or 64NET Cartridge, Also the rom could be burned and inserted in place of the original JD Rom. Oh.. for those who wish to contact me directly: Ph +61 8 2777479 (or +61 8 2771361 BBS) 1 Hurst St Morphettville SA 5043 Australia or internet mail: gardners@ist.flinders.edu.au, fido: 3:633/272.2 <Peter Fiset> In addition my hardware enhancements will be a total kernal upgrage that will be user friendly in this manner. As some may know RAMDrive has a Kernal based in RAM and can be upgraded at any time simply by loading in a new Kernal from a floppy. This technique will be used to make a very user friendly and upgradeable hardware enhancement for 64NET. The users can expect to see a lot of new gadgets coming from the relationship Paul and I have established. <GEOS-TIM> Doc has a question. <Doctor> I've maintained updates about 64Net's progress through a Mr. R.Alphey. Will he continue to be helping you? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Yup! Russell Alphey is the person who writes the manual! <Doctor> He does seem wordy by his messages. <GEOS-TIM> I was wondering who Russel was Reub has a question..... <Reub> What version of 64NET is now available for d/l? (freeware) <Paul Gardner-Stephen> v1.82.11 is the latest. The latest version to reach the US would be 1.82.00 I think. The differences are very minor. 1.82.11 will be in Peters hands in the near future. <GEOS-TIM> Are there anymore questions? This has been a very enlightening evening. It is always great to see new ways to expand the technology of what the Commodore can do. It is good to see you coming up with new ways to use the Commodore, Peter. <Peter Fiset> The users should be aware that 64NET is still a beta version, although very functional. A commercial version will be released with a numbering system of V2.xx.xx. Again this information will be available on GEnie. I really believe that also. He has renewed a deep rooted interest a love of the C64/65/128 within me. I think that 64NET is the next "killer 64 application". I feel fortunate to be asoociated with it. <Peter Fiset> Thanks for hosting us Tim. I really appreciate your help. <GEOS-TIM> Getting together with Paul appears to be a promising partnership. Yes, I appreciate that you two took time out of your busy schedule. <GEOS-TIM> Paul, thanks for arranging such an interesting trans World hook up. Could you tell the group just how you are coming to us? <Paul Gardner-Stephen> No problem! The internet makes many thing possible very cheaply! From my house I am dialed into to my internet account, from there I have telneted to a site in the United States. From there I transfered to a modem bank where I have dialed out to the GENIE 1800 number .. and here I am :) <GEOS-TIM> Great <Paul Gardner-Stephen> All for one 25c Phone call too! ;) <GEOS-TIM> We are glad you could make it....It has proved to be a very informative evening. <Peter Fiset> Paul has amazed me at his computing prowess! <GEOS-TIM> Hopefully, when can do this again in the future <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Im glad to have been invited.. this has also been my first visit to GENIE. <GEOS-TIM> I am going to go into an open forum. <Peter Fiset> I would like that very much. <Paul Gardner-Stephen> Now that I've figured a cheap way to drop in on GENIE - for sure!