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********** Topic 24 Sun Apr 13, 1986 GBARRETT [VISION100] (Forwarded) Sub: C1700/C1750 MEMORY EXPANSION Looking for comments from owners of the 17xx new RAM expanders...do they work? ...any bugs yet? and-how do you like the NEW bouncing ball? ********** ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 1 Sun Apr 13, 1986 GBARRETT [VISION100] (Forwarded) I finally have the C1700 and HAD the C1750 available to sell! I am looking for comments from those who have tried the little guys... ..did yours work? Have you tried out the new CP/M that's packed with it? My first 1700 , when plugged into the C128, shorted out the whole computer!!! When you tried to power the computer on, it wouldn't do a thing! Take it out of the cartridge port, all is fine (on 3 computers!!!) --An observation: there's one new CP/M command available with these that's kind of fun: the ability to shut off the 40 column display capability, and thus speed up CP/M execution 30+ to 50 percent! -Anyone got an M/L program yet to use these with the C64??? ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 2 Mon Apr 14, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Gary....YES, there are instructions for using the expansion cartridges in 64 mode, and I'll be uploading them tommorrow...I'm just *too* tired tonight! *deb!* ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 3 Mon Apr 14, 1986 RICKERS [Rickers] (Forwarded) Gary, We have support for the ext ram cards in our new terminal program for the C128, Sixth Sense C128 and all works fine. One programming note tho.... because the ext ram card literally commandeers the address and data buses when moving data.... you must shut down rs232 operations while the data is being moved as there will be no NMI processing of incoming data during that time period. This could cause problems for certain applications that get asynchronous input from the rs232 device. best regards, Rick Sterling ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 4 Mon Apr 14, 1986 GBARRETT [VISION100] (Forwarded) Deb and Rickers: Good to hear the news from both of you...am glad there's some pro\- gramming early on that supports the C1700/C1750. Rick: How soon could I buy/get a SS128 from you...would like to do a preview for my dealer newsletters and for Twin Cities 128 (also would like to interview you and Joe on 128 programming for both) Would appreciate any E-Mail on this... Thanks Gary ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 5 Tue Apr 15, 1986 RICKERS [Rickers] (Forwarded) Gary, I'll drop you a note in mail. I've been adding a few extra goodies to the macro programming features these last few weeks and some additional enhancements to the XMODEM protocol. We really don't want to rush the product out the door too soon and have spent a great deal of time with our many beta test sites and prelim ver users to stomp out any esoteric buggers. best regards, Rick Sterling ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 6 Wed Apr 16, 1986 WHIRT [WDHIRT] (Forwarded) Gary, I've had the 1750 for about a month now after getting a new 128 (the first was one of the first 2000 which won't work with the RAM expansion. By the way, if anyone out there has a 128 with a serial number between CA1044001 to CA1046880, I have the necessary information from CBM to modify the 128 so it works with the RAM expansion and the information from Abacus on how to get MACH128 to work with it). It works great as RAM disk in CP/M. I used it the other night as our user group meeting and it was nice to load up some CP/M files to the RAM expansion and then be able to go to both 64 and 128 modes and then come back and have the files still there. One thing I've noticed, is after the 128 s on 3 or 4 hours, the RAM expansion will sometimes not work correctly as if the power supply is overheating. I've tried 2 power supplies and the same thing has happened with each. I'm certainly putting the power supply to work though as I've got an interface and print buffer being powered off the cassette port, a 1670 on the user port, and 1750 plugged in all at once...so I may be tempting fate. Most people I've shown it too really like it until I tell them the price. On another subject, keep up the good work on the TC128. Got my first issue last week in the mail and waiting for the next! Bill ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 7 Wed Apr 16, 1986 GBARRETT [VISION100] (Forwarded) Bill... Would you either put the info on the 128 mods here or put it in E-mail to me? I'd be very interested in this! Thanks, Gary ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 8 Wed Apr 16, 1986 S.LEWIS (Forwarded) 1750 all fine and dandy here. And using it for CP/M Ram disk is a piece of microwave cake! Now all we need is a utility that will use it as a RAM drive in 128 mode and I'll feel like my investment was worth it. Steve ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 9 Thu Apr 17, 1986 WHIRT [WDHIRT] (Forwarded) Gary, Here are the mods to be made on C128's with serial numbers CA1044001 to 1046880 to allow them to work with the RAM expansion: (These mods are from Von Ertwine of CBm engineering) 1. There is a free inverter at U37-5 and -6. Cut the heave trace on bottom on pin 5 (was +5 volts). 2. Cut trace on bottom of PCB going from feed-thru near VIC chip pin 19 and 20 (closer to 19) going away from the chip about one inch. This is the dot clock line that goes to the expansion port. 3. Connect the end closes to the VIC chip to U37-5 and the other end to U37-6. Also add a 1K pull-up from U37-6 to +5 volts. That's all there is. A friend of mine will be trying this on mine Saturday (I hope!) to see if my original can be modified in this way. To get the Mach128 cart to work, I got this info from Kevin Homer at Access: 1. Find the chip marked 74LS138 (lower right front of circuit board). 2. Disconnect pin 6 and run a jumper from pin 6 to pin 16. This inverts the timing so the Mach128 cart will now work in 64 mode. This mod has been done already on a friend's Mach128 and he's had no problems (Make that C-128, not Mach 128!). Bill ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 10 Sat Apr 19, 1986 N.K.RYAN [Enforcer] (Forwarded) I would like to obtain a 1750 Ram PAck. Can anyone give me a list of locations in the NYC metro area that have this product in stock. ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 11 Sat Apr 19, 1986 GBARRETT [VISION100] (Forwarded) I don't have a list of east coast stores... but if you're interested in one, I'll sell you one of the 1700s or 1750s for $289.95+5.00 UPS shipping...send me E-MAil... Gary ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 12 Sat May 24, 1986 KEVIN-S. [KeS] (Forwarded) Ok, sports fans, here is the ?quick? and ?easy? information for upgrading your 1700 to 1750 status. It was sent to me by Bob Carpenter, from Aurora, Il, along with the schematics and a very nice cover letter. The procedure is quite straightforward, but be warned that you do void your warranty, and neither CBM, Mr. Carpenter, or myself will be accountable if you fry your 1700. The fact that I accomplished the upgrade, however, should be an encouragement; I am by no means a hardware hacker. With the above disclaimer in mind, here goes... . Materials: You will need 16 256k dynamic rams, either 150 ns or 120 ns. Also highly recommended are 16 16-pin IC sockets, so that you don't have to solder the new chips in directly. You will also need a small soldering iron, electronics solder, and some desoldering device. . 1: Pry open the case of your 1700, gently. It is a press- together case. THIS STEP WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY. 2: You can now look through the RF shielding and see the four posts holding the board in place. Gently pry the entire metal shell out of the bottom of the case. 3: Now remove the RF shell. It is a spring fit around the edges. You will need to bend the shell back a bit. Remove the circuit board. 4: At this point you can identify the salient pieces. Towards the rear (away from the edge connector), you will see two parallel rows of inch-long chips. These are the 64k RAMS. The large chip nearest the edge connector is the special memory control chip. It is socketed. I didn't remove it while working on the board, since my instruction sheet didn't say to, but you should avoid touching it. About 1 inch in from the connector, you should see two clusters of solder pads, one with two pads, marked J1, and one with three pads, marked J2. These are the only components that you will have to deal with on the circuit board. If you have identified them all, you are ready to proceed. 5: Desolder the old 64k RAMS, using whatever technique works best for you. Dispose of them as you will. 6: Note that the sketch on the circuit board under each RAM chip has a semi-circular hollow on one end. This is to show which way to insert the new chips, which have a similar depression on their surface. I mention this now because you may not be able to see the sketches after you install the IC sockets. 7: Solder in the IC sockets. 8: Check your soldering for spurious connections, incomplete connections, etc. 9: Plug your nice new 256k RAM chips into the IC sockets, making sure they face the right way in accordance with (6). 10: Look between the two solder pads at location J1. You should see that they are connected by a tiny solder trace. This trace must be cut in order for the unit to recognize all that memory you just installed. Cut it carefully but definitely with a razor knife or other tool. 11: You are finished! Re-assemble the RF shell and case, and run the diagnostic program that came with your 1700. If everything checks out, great. If you get an error message, not so great. The likelihood is that you have a bad solder connection on one of the IC sockets, or possibly a bad RAM chip. . Notes: It is worth mentioning that you should make sure that the replacement RAMs you buy are from the same manufacturer, and preferably the same batch. I have heard some nasty stories from IBM-PC folk about mixing and matching RAMS. . If you look carefully at the circuit board, you will see that several big traces have been cut through. Apparently someone screwed up at CBM! . Your Boing! demo will now be much smoother. Invite some IPM-PC friends over and laugh at them. . Good luck and congratulations, in that order! KeS . (do I get brownie points, deb! ?) ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 13 Sun May 25, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) => *deb* <= Any chance (pretty please...) of having the message dealing with 128 mods for the RAM extension, and the mods to make the 1700 into a 1750 put into text files for the library. I find this helpful stuff and many may need it long after this topic is closed and long gone. Thanks and ===BIG kiss!=== courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 14 Mon May 26, 1986 WDBAILEY [SIR WAYNE] (Forwarded) I SECOND THE MOTION.....SO SO ME OF US ARE JUST GETTING STARTED WITH THE 128, AND THIS INFO WILL BE REALLY USEFUL LATER. THANKS DEB!! HUG X 2 <WAYNE> ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 15 Mon May 26, 1986 MIKEM [Pax Regal] (Forwarded) If KeS and Deb don't mind, I could upload a more detailed SEQ file that describes the RAM upgrade procedures (to the LIBRARY section). ...jest say the word -Mike- ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 16 Mon May 26, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) I vote for it! Courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 17 Tue May 27, 1986 GRAFIX.M [Mike Hooper] (Forwarded) Speaking for deb! (she's off to CES yano).....YES! Send 'er on up! ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 18 Wed May 28, 1986 MIKEM [Pax Regal] (Forwarded) Wellll...... Up it goes! -MIKE- ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 19 Thu May 29, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) Hey, folks, I'm easy...!! Sure, we'll (almost) always archive things into the library if they are important before we nuke them!!! Thanks to all, it sounds much simpler than I would have imagined, but hardware is _still_ not my thing...! *deb!* ---------- Category 14, Topic 24 Message 20 Thu May 29, 1986 MIKEM [Pax Regal] (Forwarded) DEB - I uploaded the RAM Upgrade info today. Save you the trouble (and your fingers). -Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ********** Topic 15 Sat Jul 05, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) Sub: 128 RAM EXPANSION Ideas/complaints etc about the 1700/1750 ram expansion for the 128 ********** ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 1 Sat Jul 05, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) I just bought the 1700 expansion. Does anyone (**Deb**?) know if the file on modifying the 1700 into a 1750 is in a library yet...and if so, which one ????? Thanks, Courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 2 Sat Jul 05, 1986 GRAFIX.M [Mike Hooper] (Forwarded) Check file #1222 in Library #1-Information Exchange. Also there is a file on 128 Memory Expansion, #1238. --GFX ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 3 Sat Jul 05, 1986 MIKEM [Pax Regal] (Forwarded) Courtney: If you do decide to upgrade your 1700, please note that I may have left out one bit of info in that file describing the procedure.... After you have removed the plastic casing from the unit, you will then be required to pry apart the metal casing. When you do this, you will find that it is 'hinged' in the rear section. Take care not to break this hinged portion of the metal. It is easy to do on some units, as a number of them have vent holes running across the crease. If you do break it, then solder it together again! Also, do not be alarmed if you see some LARGE gashes in the board. Seems CBM had some problems in the boards initial design, and their way of redesigning it was to take an axe to some of the circuitry. Enjoy your new 640K machine!! -Mike ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 4 Sun Jul 06, 1986 TGROOMS [Tim] (Forwarded) Can anyone tell me the best place to purchase the chips? Cost wise that is? Tim ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 5 Sun Jul 06, 1986 GBARRETT [VISION100] (Forwarded) Cost-effectiveness isn't the thing to watch as much as quality... RAM chips have this incredible tendency toward being bad from the start...and you get them AS IS...no exchanges from the discount parts places. The cheapest RELIABLE price is about $3.95 each...you'll probably also want to socket them...so count on about 5-7 dollars per chip in cost (socketing is the best way...so if it tests bad, the chip can easily be replaced.) COMPUTER SHOPPER is a good place to check for suppliers. Don't take the cheap ones, tho...you'll wish you hadn't!!! -Gary ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 6 Sun Jul 06, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) Thanks everyone for the help. Next weekend's project is make a 1750 out of a 1700. Is this anything like turning lead into gold? I'll let you know how it turned out. Aloha, Courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 7 Sun Jul 06, 1986 MIKEM [Pax Regal] (Forwarded) I've done maybe 10 or 12 units so far and have had no problem with any of the chips I've purchased. I agree with Gary, tho, that you shouldnt pick up those discounted DRams. I also ensure that all the chips are from the same manufacturer and from the same batch if possible. CHECK ALL PINS on the chips you might purchase. Make sure none are broken off or bent to the point that they MAY break if handled. Good luck, and do keep us informed! -Mike ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 8 Sun Jul 06, 1986 TGROOMS [Tim] (Forwarded) Appreciate the info everybody. Thanks. Tim ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 9 Tue Jul 15, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) Well, here is my book report on my magical changing of a 1700 to a 1750 this past weekend: === success!! === I got the 256K chips from Micro Tech in seattle at $2.75 apiece. The whole conversion took about 5 hours, with almost all the time spend removing the 64K chips and desoldering the mess left behind. I think I am like most and don't have the proper desolder equipment so what I did was take a pair of wire cutters and cut the pins (legs) from each chip where they meet the case. The used the soldering iron to heat the leg until loose and removed with a pair of tweezers. What ever happened to the right tool for the right job? Anyway...then came the project of cleaning the holes out with a toothpick. Gawd, I think back on it and wonder how I got away with it. But it all worked on the RAM test first time through. There have been some suggestions that the new IC's should be placed in sockets. I agree!!! I used them and it makes a world of difference in the project. Most IC's are very sensistive to heat, and it would be easy to blow the chip by soldering directly to it. So anyway---thanks to all of you for you help and support. Now, all I gotta do is find a program that uses the ram expansion. Oh well, maybe next year... Courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 10 Wed Jul 16, 1986 TGROOMS [Tim] (Forwarded) Hey Courtney, Glad to see everything went ok for you and thanx for mentioning where you purchased your chips. I think i'll order from the same place. Tim ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 11 Wed Jul 16, 1986 MIKEM [Pax Regal] (Forwarded) Courtney: Bravo! Two desoldering tools might have helped. A desoldering wick, or a plunger-type tool that sucks up the solder when in liquid form. As for programs that do use the 1700/1750..... COLOR-64 BBS <by G.Pfountz> Sixth Sense 128 <by R. Sterling> Micro VT-128 <dont hit me...I forgot> and of course, CP/M uses it as device M: Anyone know of any others? I know there is a Word Processor or two that uses it, no? <Hmm...Does my Paperback Writer-128 use it? I forget...> -Mike ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 12 Wed Jul 16, 1986 KEVIN-S. [KeS] (Forwarded) Congratulations from myself, as well. I didn't even have wire cutters, I did the same thing with pruning shears! Otherwise it sounds like your installation went just like mine. People should check around in their local electronics stores for the RAM chips. Radio Shack and computer stores are not, for the most part, price-effective sources. Look under electronics supply in the Yellow Pages. What you want to ask for (so you don't have to feel as stupid as I did), are "256k, 150 nano-second DRAMS (dee-rams)". Knowledgeable people will know what these are. A good price is anything below $3.00 per chip, especially if they will throw in 16-pin IC sockets. You need 16 chips. I wasn't able to get a better price quote via mail order than I got locally ($2.79). I am sure that there are quality differences between chip makers, but I doubt it makes much difference in this application, although you should be sure that you are getting the same brand, and hopefully batch, of chip. They will come stuck into a strip of foam, so you just make sure they don't give you 4 different strips of remnant chips. Buying 120ns vs 150ns chips will NOT make your unit any faster. . KeS ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 13 Thu Jul 17, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) I tried a desoldering wick...but found it too large and bulky to work on the board. For those who want the information, I got my chips from: MicroTech Box 75673 Seattle, WA 98125-0673 (206)364-2209 The chips were Fuji brand and came in an anti-static container and all were from the same batch. They were $2.75 each. I found this company in the Computer Shopper. Courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 14 Sat Jul 19, 1986 DEB [*deb!*] (Forwarded) and GEOS is supposed to use the RAM expansion, too. That ought to significantly speed up the processes that grab each letter from the disk as you type it.... <<grin>> ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 15 Thu Nov 13, 1986 CHARRINGTON [Courtney] at 18:23 PST Concerning our unending search for a wedge for the 17xx RAM unit: I had a conversation with Karl Hildon (editor of Transactor) today and he says the magazine will have a program to do the job in the issue after the next one. Mummble...mummble...that works out to March, I believe. Anyway, he says the program will make the 17xx act just like a disk drive. Similar to Device M in CP/M. The program writes a BAM to the 17xx and uses ALL normal DOS commands. Finally, someone does something about that $200 paperweight. Courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 16 Thu Nov 13, 1986 SPARROW.J at 23:49 EST Actually we should see the Commodore version of this RAM wedge before Christmas...Dave Haynie will have more details on this on Tuesday, but the word I am getting is that it will be released to the PUBLIC DOMAIN since you need the Commodore hardware to use it anyway. By the way Char, GEOS 128 uses the RAM expansion as a drive extensively And it really is something. Also Digital Soultions new updates of the popular Pocket Series has a RAM drive option. It is coming, it won't be long now...I'm working on getting Victor Kass here for a conference in December (Pres of Digital) to talk more about this. Trust me the RAM expansion is really going to add a super dimension to the 128! --Sparrow James ---------- Category 14, Topic 15 Message 17 Fri Nov 14, 1986 CHARRINGTON [Courtney] at 18:42 PST I bought the 17xx because I felt it would be a useful tool. I guess I'm just disappointed it took (is taking) so long for it to be useable. Courtney ---------- ********** Topic 18 Sat Jul 19, 1986 N.K.RYAN [Enforcer] (Forwarded) Sub: 1750 RAM EXPANSION QUIRKS!! 1750 and 1700 RAM PAKS are readily available, but there are a few things missing....Could these units be defective or ?? ********** ---------- Category 14, Topic 18 Message 1 Sat Jul 19, 1986 N.K.RYAN [Enforcer] (Forwarded) I recently purchased a 1750 Ram Exapansion Module for my 128. Everything worked fine. The unit passed the Ram Test. The new CP/M was very, very slow!!! in loading. One thing I did noticed was that NOWHERE on the unit was there a Serial Number, not on the unit, not on the BOX.....How can I send in a warranty card,....Anyone with a similar problem!!! Was this unit ment for sale or Beta-testin or what....The price I paid was 169.00....NEW and in the familiar CBM Box. ---------- Category 14, Topic 18 Message 2 Sat Jul 19, 1986 GWAYNE [Gwf] (Forwarded) <RETURN>, <S>croll <Q>uit ? Enforcer. $169.00, where did you get it? Gary ---------- Category 14, Topic 18 Message 3 Sat Jul 19, 1986 N.K.RYAN [Enforcer] (Forwarded) The Store is located in lower New York City. I don't think they ship Mail Order, but I will check. The name of the store is Montgomery Grant Electronics. They are located at 75 Nassau Street in NY. ---------- Category 14, Topic 18 Message 4 Sat Jul 19, 1986 CHARRINGTON (Forwarded) $169.00 ??? I paid $140.00 for mine...plus 54.00 in parts to upgrade it. I'm also missing the serial number...but since I upgrading it, the warrenty went out the window as soon as I opened the case anyway. Courtney ---------- Category 14, Topic 18 Message 5 Tue Jul 22, 1986 GWAYNE [Gwf] (Forwarded) Where is it avaiable for $169.00? ---------- Category 14, Topic 18 Message 6 Sat Aug 16, 1986 KEVIN-S. [KeS] (Forwarded) Aha! I got a multi-cartridge board at a swap meet today, and Partner 128 and the 1750 co-exist just fine! No problems yet at all, except for physically trying to fit everything on the desk! . KeS ---------- Category 14, Topic 18 Message 7 Sat Aug 16, 1986 MIKEM [Pax Regal] (Forwarded) KeS: Oh, great! Steal my thunder, whydontcha?? <grin> I'm patiently awaiting the arrival of an Aprospand cartridge board and am glad to hear that yours is working fine. Which did you purchase? Have you tried any other cartridges in tandem yet? <Interested, to say the least>... -Mekim, er...-Mike