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SF-LOVERS Digest            Friday, 12 Feb 1993       Volume 18 : Issue 101

Today's Topics:

                 Miscellaneous - Research Questionnaire &
                                 Fan Fiction and Copyrights (11 msgs)

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Date: 29 Jan 93 20:19:00 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Nicole A. Ritchie)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: SF Research Assignment

I'm doing an assignment for one of my courses on sf and I was hoping some
of you might be interested in helping me out.  Basically I'm looking at
differences in male and female attitudes/actions towards sf.  If you would
like to help me, please e-mail your responses to the following
questionnaire.  If you can't e-mail it then post it to this group.

1. Initials  ___

2. Sex  M___ F___

3. How often do you read sf novels/short stories?
        Less than 1 hr/week   ___
        1-2 hrs/week          ___
        2-3 hrs/week          ___
        3-4 hrs/week          ___
        More than 4 hrs/week  ___

4. How often do you watch sf movies/shows?
        Less than 1 hr/week   ___
        1-2 hrs/week          ___
        2-3 hrs/week          ___
        3-4 hrs/week          ___
        More than 4 hrs/week  ___

5. How do you differentiate between sf and fantasy (in 250 words or less)?

6. Who got you interested in sf (friends, relatives, an episode of ST,
etc)?

7. At approximately what age did you get interested in sf?

8. Which do you prefer?   Hard sf   ___
                          (based on sciences like physics and chemistry)
                          Soft sf   ___
                          (based on sciences like psych. and sociology)

9. If you can, give reasons as to why you like sf (in 250 words or less)?

Thanks in advance.

This is worth 25% of my final mark so any help would be appreciated and if
you would like to see the results just tell me and I'll send them to you.

Nicole

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Date: 19 Jan 93 00:34:55 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Wilson Heydt)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement?

[e-mail] writes:
>But more importantly as the poster implied in the intro, one should be
>careful not to bite the hand that feeds.  We buy these stories for our
>pleasure.  I have contemplated writing in other BNA's worlds just for fun.
>I realize that if I did it for profit, I owe somebody money.  But if I do
>it for fun and share it with friends (friends being defined as people who
>would enjoy it), give me leave to do it.  I wasn't even aware there was a
>legal issue involved.  This kind of protection illustrates an evil in our
>society.  This evil is that this sort of game playing with the thoughts of
>an author which you need paper and pen or electronic media for is
>prohibited if the author wants it that way.

Is the problem pernicous?  Yes.  And it gets that way because of 'sea
lawyers' who will steal anything that isn't nailed down and anything that
they can pry loose isn't seen as being nailed down.

*Any* publishing activity can remove characters from control of the
original author, if you're not careful.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
510-823-5447
[e-mail]

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Date: 19 Jan 93 01:59:26 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Mark 'Mark' Sachs)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG)

You know, the objections to fanfic by authors generally seem to center
around "if I allow people to use my characters, I can be shut out of
assorted reprints, rights, and so forth..."

There ought to be a way of getting a legal ruling; something on the order
of, derivative works created by third parties shall have no effect
whatsoever on the copyright rights of the author. Or something like that. I
mean, it only makes sense, and I get the feeling some judge is going to get
involved in this anyway; not now, perhaps, but in ten or twenty years I
could definitely see a fan-fiction piece causing legal trouble for an
author.

What do you all think?

Mark Sachs
[e-mail]

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Date: 19 Jan 93 03:53:32 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Cassandra T. Kamuchey)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement?

   A few corrections to my previous post. First, Mercedes Lackey apparently
has no direct hand in the "Queen's Own" newsletter.  She has simply
authorized some fans to serve as a clearing house for each other.

   Second, "Queen's Own" is not a fanzine, it is a newsletter.

   Finally, if I understand the newsletter correctly, *every* poem, song,
story etc. that a fan writes and sets in Lackey's universe and which is
"shared with others" must be accompanied by the fan signing his/her
copyright interest over to Lackey.  Even if the fan never intends to submit
the work to Lackey for consideration or review.  That seems overkill to me.
The majority of Lackey's audience is pre-teens which also raises some
tricky issues for informed consent (although the waiver does require a
parent's sig.)  So what's a thirteen year old to do - slip the contract
underneath the field trip permission slip?

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 93 10:03:22 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Brad Templeton)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG)

[e-mail] (Mark Sachs) writes:
>There ought to be a way of getting a legal ruling; something on the order
>of, derivative works created by third parties shall have no effect
>whatsoever on the copyright rights of the author. Or something like that.
>I mean, it only makes sense, and I get the feeling some judge is going to
>get involved in this anyway; not now, perhaps, but in ten or twenty years
>I could definitely see a fan-fiction piece causing legal trouble for an
>author.

There sort of is.  It's called "ask permission."  If told no, don't write.
If told yes, you will probably have to sign a waiver saying something of
this sort.

Brad Templeton
ClariNet Communications Corp.
Sunnyvale, CA
408/296-0366

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Date: 19 Jan 93 16:00:03 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Crow's Friend Timmy)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG)

[e-mail] (Mark 'Mark' Sachs) writes:
>There ought to be a way of getting a legal ruling; something on the order
>of, derivative works created by third parties shall have no effect
>whatsoever on the copyright rights of the author.

There ARE many many legal rulings already, and they all note that it DOES
affect the author. You'd need to rewrite the Berne convention and get all
of the signatories to fix this.

Chuq Von Rospach
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 93 18:19:00 GMT
From: [e-mail] (RANDY_GOLDBERG)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley

[e-mail] (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>If Bradley *does* do more any more Darkover anthologies, it will (if I
>guess right) be only by invitation to those she has found she can trust to
>show professional judgement in matters about copyright and she will
>probably flatly refuse to read unsolicited manuscripts in order to
>preserve a solid *legal* defense against charges of swiping someone else's
>ideas.

I'd like to add that MZB is not the first author to figure this out.  Anne
McCaffrey allows us to "play in her yard," as MZB put it, but with her
fully revocable permission.  Anything "new" we create (we recently needed
an herbal contraceptive to make a story work, for instance), we
automatically sign copyright over to her.  And her lawyers have forbidden
her to read ANY fan fiction set in any of her worlds.  It's the only way
she can protect herself from lawsuits galore.

Cheers.

Randy

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 93 01:16:55 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Jean Goodrich)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley

My feeling is that the author who created a world should have implicit
rights to that world. In this example, I think that even though MZB offered
the fan a chance to publish her story, giving permission to write in her
world, MZB should have complete freedom to continue to write anything in
her world. If the fan published her story, MZB still has the right to
publish her own work, with her own characters, in any time period she
chooses. It is *HER* world, and the fan would not have had a basis for her
story or the chance at financial profit without the originating work of MZB
in the first place. Even if MZB's work parallels or disregards the fan's
story, she has that inherent right.

The only exception I can see to this is in the case of obvious plagiarism
of plot, characters, etc. of the fan's creation by the originating author.
Unfortunately, the originating author is in a position of power, since she
is a published author who has broken "in" and made contacts, and could
probably get a plagiarized work published before the fan had a chance to
cover herself and prove the work was her own. That may be a good argument
for not using someone else's world, or at least if you do, developing your
own style. Still, I think that work containing MZB's characters or in any
time period whatsoever, which she defined to begin with, are her
prerogative. This is something the fan should have to accept.

Let's face it, if you can't come up with your own ideas, characters, plot,
you'll never really be a writer in your own right.

And I think any judge who covers any lawsuit that may come of this
situation should penalize the husband for getting involved at all. It's not
his story, it's his wife's. If she were the one considering a lawsuit, I
might be more understanding. Maybe then she was defending her own work.
But her husband has tried to "own" something that is not his, and his
asinine behavior has probably ruined his wife's chance of becoming an
author. What publisher would want to deal with someone who has attempted to
sue someone else in the business? Grasping people like this are a plague on
society.

It burns me up to hear this, because though the fan herself is not at
fault, she has allowed her husband to compromise her, to interfere with
MZB's work, and to deny fans like herself the chance to read a long-awaited
book. One of MZB's other fan's should sue this woman (and her greedy
husband) for interfering with their right to read an author's work.  Boy,
don't I wish!

Jean

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 93 23:55:29 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Chuq Von Rospach)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley

[e-mail] writes:
>I don't understand why MZB said this could make her a misanthrope.

Because of one bad apple, she's no longer able to do what she wants. So she
feels badly about having to protect herself from the bad apples by tossing
out all the good apples as well.

>From what I read here, the fan didn't do anything wrong,

That's because what you read didn't include the demand for co-authorship on
MZB's book, nor did it mention the threatened lawsuit against Marion, or
some of the other, nastier stuff.

>Couldn't she just work out a deal with the fan so that the fan would sign
>an agreement not to sue, or something, so that the book could be
>published?

She tried. The fan, shall we say, was uncooperative.

Chuq Von Rospach
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 9 Feb 93 18:44:53 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Wilson Heydt)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley

[e-mail] (Jean Goodrich) writes:
>The only exception I can see to this is in the case of obvious plagiarism
>of plot, characters, etc. of the fan's creation by the originating author.

This is the point where the copyright laws, lawyers and the courts get
involved and why the whole thing is such a mess.

>Let's face it, if you can't come up with your own ideas, characters, plot,
>you'll never really be a writer in your own right.

An excellent point, but writing in someone else's universe affords the
advantage of a place to practice before the beginning writer is good enough
to construct their own place.

>And I think any judge who covers any lawsuit that may come of this
>situation should penalize the husband for getting involved at all. It's
>not his story, it's his wife's. If she were the one considering a lawsuit,
>I might be more understanding. Maybe then she was defending her own work.
>But her husband has tried to "own" something that is not his, and his
>asinine behavior has probably ruined his wife's chance of becoming an
>author. What publisher would want to deal with someone who has attempted
>to sue someone else in the business? Grasping people like this are a
>plague on society.

While I agree with your conclusion, your premise doesn't completely support
it.  The husband has a clear financial interest in his wife's work
("community property" and all that).

>It burns me up to hear this, because though the fan herself is not at
>fault, she has allowed her husband to compromise her, to interfere with
>MZB's work, and to deny fans like herself the chance to read a
>long-awaited book. One of MZB's other fan's should sue this woman (and her
>greedy husband) for interfering with their right to read an author's work.
>Boy, don't I wish!

An interesting proposal...

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
510-823-5447
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 93 23:23:13 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Gary J LaPointe)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? V18 #90

>On one issue presented, I think Lackey is on shaky ground.  Since her
>agent is (to a degree) *her* creature, she has leverage, influence and
>some control of what actions the *agent* takes in copyright cases.  She
>can, after all, *fire* the agent (cutting off any income for future and
>possibly present) work altogether.  This *should* have a powerful sobering
>effect on any agent with a successful client and an eye for future income.

I could be wrong BUT I think most people have a CONTRACT with their agent.
You cannot fire a contract. People want a good agent to negotiate a good
price (etc.)  for their books.  They also give the agent the power to sue,
schedule promotional stuff etc. part of the agent's side of the contract.

Personally I see a difficult time in stopping people (legally) from
distributing stuff on the internet.  I suppose if you mail stuff out you
are GIVING it away but if you put it on a machine people are TAKING it off
your harddrive.  A fine line I admit but you can't legally hassle someone
for wrting something and having other people make xeroxes of it, can you???

Gary J LaPointe
Michigan State University
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 10 Feb 93 00:16:38 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Wilson Heydt)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Marion Zimmer Bradley

[e-mail] (RANDY_GOLDBERG) writes:
>[e-mail] (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>>If Bradley *does* do more any more Darkover anthologies, it will (if I
>>guess right) be only by invitation to those she has found she can trust
>>to show professional judgement in matters about copyright and she will
>>probably flatly refuse to read unsolicited manuscripts in order to
>>preserve a solid *legal* defense against charges of swiping someone
>>else's ideas.
>
>I'd like to add that MZB is not the first author to figure this out.  Anne
>McCaffrey allows us to "play in her yard," as MZB put it, but with her
>fully revocable permission.  Anything "new" we create (we recently needed
>an herbal contraceptive to make a story work, for instance), we
>automatically sign copyright over to her.  And her lawyers have forbidden
>her to read ANY fan fiction set in any of her worlds.  It's the only way
>she can protect herself from lawsuits galore.

Thinking over these two cases, plus the mess that Chelsea Quinn Yarbro has
been going through, I understand from friends at Other Change of Hobbit"
that those particular damnfools have at least *started* to understand the
mess they made - I think the SF writing market is about to split into a *3*
tier system....  At the top will be those that write solely in their own
universes.  In the middle will be those that can be trusted to write in
someone else's universe and at the bottom will be the fen either writing
otherwise publishable material but without 'sanction' (because they haven't
earned the trust) or unpublishable material.  We may wind up discussing
which authors are riding which lines between major groups - i.e. the ones
that sometimes write in their own universes and sometimes in someone
else's.

The hard transition will be to get to publish in a known universe.  For
that, an up and coming writer will have to demonstrate that they can be
*trusted* that close to another persons copyright without abusing the
privilege.

Hal Heydt
Analyst, Pacific*Bell
510-823-5447
[e-mail]

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End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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