GEMini Atari

home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search

/ GEMini Atari / GEMini_Atari_CD-ROM_Walnut_Creek_December_1993.iso / files / tt / tt_1 / topic35.txt

Wrap

Text File | 1989-09-25 | 381.1 KB | 8,819 lines

================================================================================ (C) 1989 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GEnie and hit RETURN. The system will prompt you for your information. ================================================================================ ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 1 Sat Jun 10, 1989 R.MOYER1 at 04:06 EDT Can anyone give me any definitive answers about the T Like what features,will it be a true multitasking machine like the Amiga as I've heard it rumored? I'm sincerely interested in this, and please, no Amiga/ST bashing please. Keep that to CAT 18.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 2 Sat Jun 10, 1989 TOWNS at 20:52 EDT Sorry.. The TT is still under development and we can not release specifications on the machine until it is announced formally. Once that happens, you can ask away! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 3 Sun Jun 11, 1989 R.MOYER1 at 08:15 EDT Oh, I was under the impression that it was pending release anytime now and that everyone else new about it except me.....;-) Oh well, go ahead and TPUrge this topic then if you wish, thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 4 Sun Jun 11, 1989 M.MCCANN2 at 11:59 EDT R.MOYER1: If you will check back issues of ST Report, you will find ALL sorts of speculation about the TT. As for MT, it is supposed to run Unix 5.3.1, I believe was the rumor; is that MT enough? And also (I presume) supposed to have TOS 1.4 in ROM, as I have heard it said it runs Dungeonmaster (blindingly fast, I presume). If it runs that, it would have to be extremely ST- compatible... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 5 Sun Jun 11, 1989 C.DAYMON at 20:09 EDT R.MOYER1, You also may look into the messages and articles discussing the ATW (previously know as the Abaq). There was an article in a past Byte issue. Parallel processing and blinding speed with VERY high-end graphics ability. It is currently shipping in europe. (1024x768 with 256 colors from a 16 million pallette, 1280x960 with 16 from the same pallette and two other resolutions including one where, I think, all 16 million colors can be used at once - given that many pixels.) It runs the Helios operating system which is supposed to be a very Unix-like operating system for parallel processing and comes with X-Windows. Don't hold me to the accuracy of this information cause several things have changed since the first article, but I think most of this is still true. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 6 Sun Jun 11, 1989 BREHBOCK at 22:30 CDT Quick vote everybody! I vote this topic be closed until the TT is formally announced. It will keep rumours down and let John stay on top of current topics (like the ATW :-) !) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 7 Sun Jun 11, 1989 G.E.M. at 23:10 PDT Nah, if you close it down someone will just open another one. I vote that it be left open, that way it all stays in one place. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 8 Mon Jun 12, 1989 GORDON at 19:58 EDT Rumers.... Rumers.... Rumers.... Rumers.... Rumers.... Rumers... TO Fuel the fires... The reason 1.4 is being delayed is to make sure it works on the TT!!! There for any software that runs under 1.4 on the Megas and STs will run on the TT. (not multitasking) But the TT is supposed to run UNIX.. Unix is multitasking.. TT is months away... I mean common Atari announced the Stacy in April with a June delivery date and now hope they will have it out in September if the TT is not announced yet it is MONTHS... But I think it will be worth waiting for... (THat is if we don't have to wait to long) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 9 Mon Jun 12, 1989 TOWNS at 22:19 EDT I am sorry to ask this.. but, what is the POINT of that last message Gordon? I am missing something? If so, please tell me. And let me clear things up.. TOS 1.4 is NOT being delayed for UNIX or Multi-Tasking capabilities. In fact, it is NOT being delayed at all.. We are working as fast as we can to get a release to dealers to upgrade the existing userbase. As soon as we have an OFFICAL release date on this product, we will pass it along. -- John Townsend Atari Corporation ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 10 Mon Jun 12, 1989 TLMAY [Terry May] at 19:29 PDT Gordon, You seem to imply that TOS 1.4 is still under development... Didn't John say that it's at the MANUFACTURING plant??? ;^) Darn things take awhile to burn, no? -=<Terry May>=- ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 11 Tue Jun 13, 1989 TOWNS at 02:14 EDT Yes, there is a significant lead time on these things.. We are working on improving this as we speak.. -- John Townsend ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 12 Tue Jun 13, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 12:52 EDT Burning ROMS do take about 2 months... Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 13 Tue Jun 13, 1989 C.DAYMON at 18:54 EDT I hate to say this now because TT development seems to be so far along, but it would really be great to see the TT come out with the Renderman interface routines in ROM. That would sure set the TT above the Mac IIx and give Atari a great "IN" to the graphics community. (This, of course, would be in addition to TOS 1.4 in ROM.) From the little I know of the Renderman interface, it seems that some of the routines could even share code with the TOS graphic routines. My understanding is that it is a software interface to provide portable function names to many high-end graphic routines. If Atari wanted to bypass licensing fees with Pixar, they could even provide the functions with different names and then 3rd party compiler developers could provide links to the functions with names that were Renderman compatible. Actually, I'm not really sure Pixar expects a licensing fee. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 14 Wed Jun 14, 1989 GRIBNIF at 00:38 EDT Craig, Write the routines into C libraries and sell them to developers. Rick ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 15 Wed Jun 14, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 18:27 MDT A friend of mine just got a Mac IIX (with a 68030) and a color monitor, and a 65 meg hardd rive for $4500!! He has me drooling, except that I still don't like Mac's OS and how they handle graphics(thru software in ROM no less!!!). So, I don't want no Mac IIX, I wannna TT!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 16 Thu Jun 15, 1989 TOWNS at 01:56 EDT $4500.00? I find that hard to believe. Sounds like he got an _extremely_ good price or something.. As for TT, wait and see... I think you will like it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 17 Thu Jun 15, 1989 S.JOHNSON10 at 02:34 EDT But will the TT still be available by September? Or is it more likely to be delayed until sometime next year?! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 18 Thu Jun 15, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 09:03 EDT He probably got the developer price. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 19 Thu Jun 15, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 22:18 MDT TOWNS: My Mac friend got the Mac iix, used, from a desperate ASU student. The student had just graduated and needed the bucks more then the computer. So, my Mac friend was just in the right place at the right time. Who knows, maybe the ASU student will buy an ST with his $$$ !!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 20 Sat Jun 17, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 23:14 MDT hmmm OK, there isn't much available info. on the TT, well is there a section around here to discuss the ATW? Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 21 Sun Jun 18, 1989 A.RICHARDSO7 [ATW MAN!] at 21:38 EDT I would welcome an ATW column with wide open arms! It was last reported shipping in Europe and lately going into the hands of US developers. If that info is correct, someone should be able to comment responsibly on its actual capabilities, characteristics, and quirks. Sysops: What do you think?? Andy Richardson ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 22 Tue Jun 20, 1989 T.ONDERS [Tim Onders] at 19:03 EDT Canadian developers have had ATW's for 4 months or so now =) -Tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 23 Tue Jun 20, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:26 PDT And what have they to say ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 24 Tue Jun 20, 1989 BREHBOCK at 23:38 CDT Ok, ok, as long as the topic's open... John, have you heard about somebody (big... Pheonix, QMS?) putting PostScript to raster conversion in a PostScript co-processor? Sounds like a shoe-in for display PostScript on the TT. Looks like the Stever (Jobs) may have missed the boat by 6 months. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 25 Wed Jun 21, 1989 QMI at 01:36 EDT With the new prices on the Sun 3/80, SPARCStation 1 and Sun 386i, I can't understand why Atari would continue with TT development. Even Apple is wondering what to do with a IIcx priced about the same as the Sun and the equaly-priced Sun runs about twice as fast as the Mac IIx's. If Atari can price a fully-equiped TT (80Meg HD, large monitor, 4M RAM with all ports) at $4000 retail (and a 40% dealer margin) they might be able to move them. They will need to pick up big name dealer support like Sun just did with ComputerLand. Just call me skeptical! I just saw the Sun 8-bit graphics co-processor card (~$2000) and there are no words to descibe it. It is a fraction of the cost of any board that attempts to do hi-speed 2D+ hardware hooked directly into an OS. The Mac has nothing close. It takes less than a screen retrace time to redraw a complete complex large-window drawing (in other words, you can't see it drawing!). Well, it does require 8Megs of RAM. But at about $15,000 complete system price, noone else comes close. Back to reality. (My mother told me never to stare at the 'Sun' to long). JD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 26 Wed Jun 21, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 10:08 EDT I agree with you there John, the workstation marketis in for a shakedown. Now if Atari had come out with it when I saw it two years ago... I'll bet that the TT doesn't cost less than $5000 either. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 27 Wed Jun 21, 1989 GORDON at 15:44 EDT John if Atari does not continue developing the TT what are they going to do? The Mega and ST design is going on 5 years old. IT is old techonolgy. They will not be able to sell it for much longer. When the ST was introduced the IBM was selling a 8088 cpu called the XT. Mac was still on the original 128K itty bitty expensive cpu. Now IBM is selling 80386's that fly (the 286 was also introduced in there someplace) Mac is selling a bigger and faster cpu. (lets see they had a Mac SE and A MAc II) even the Amiga has came out with a 68020 board and has shown (but not sold ) a 68030 board. Atari either comes out with a TT soon or they get out of the computer business! The world has passed them buy and left them. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 28 Thu Jun 22, 1989 QMI at 00:16 EDT Gordon: exactly right... either Atari has a killer 68030 machine now and at $4000 complete, they are out of the computer business. Based on past experiences, I don't think they have a chance. Even if the hardware is above average (Atari computers usually are solid on the technical design) the support and marketing will be lacking as usual. Mark: Anybody that stay in touch with the market trends has to be blind not to see the handwriting on the wall. Us little guys in the trenches seem to know more than Atari does... but I still have a firm desire to see them succeed. I've made a big investment over the last 4 years and would like to get something in return. The computer race is more than price/performance these days. The ones that are winning have a rare combination of marketing skills and are willing to make a long-term investment in all aspects of support: dealer, developer, user and specialty markets. IBM succeeds only in sheer size (I think they fail in most other areas). Apple seems to be committed in all the areas. Sun has the right combination and are extending that to the higher end microcomputer market. When I think about what Atari has succeded in doing, I rank them down around Coleco and XYZ no-name clone company. C'mon Atari, make a liar out of me! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 29 Thu Jun 22, 1989 WHITESTR at 18:15 PDT Hmmmm...I figured a year ago that Atari Higher-ups (read Mr. L and brothers) were finding themselves in the throws of a serious marketing dilemna...--> Do we break into the US market with a _really_ serious tool, our Transputer Workstation, or --> Do we 'downgrade' the workstation's tooling to a level which should fit into the advanced home business computer user slot? Problem was two fold. Number one, as made clear by public Atari Corp. statements (Sam T. and Neil H.), it has been evident to everyone who follows the industry closely that the American computer using public has been getting progressively more demanding with regards to power and high-end graphics. As a CD-ROM developer, for instance, it is clear that what people really expect in multi-media entertainment/education is TV quality graphics with synchonized sound...plus, of course, glich free interaction. I recall being told by the head of Atari's CD-ROM project at the time that what I would _really_ want to be developing for was their upcoming TT. However, even a 68030 chip can handle real time video processing only so well. And is that TT meant to be for the 'developer/professional' or for the passive consumer also? Perhaps the consumer just needs high res graphics and good sound and a *no-more-than-fast-enough* chip set to passively (more or less) play back applications. Such a current computer shouldn't have to cost over $2-3000 should it? Which brings us to the second half of this dilemna. If the TT is meant to be a 'consumer' machine, than we're talking _real_ serious 'Business is War' price cutting. What with the way we all knew even a year ago that the workstation market was getting very competitive, it seemed that breaking into the US jaded home computer mindset required graphic power (at least as good as the old TV) for a truly affordable price (read ...not $4-5000 which is what all the 'other' companies would be shooting for). If that is so, than perhaps the high-end developers and professionals should be catered to first (read ATW) 'cause without those developers pushing the envelope (who naturally want the most power and *long-term non-obsolescence*) there is no way there is going to be entertainment and consumer oriented projects developed which make use of the current capabilities of hardware like CD-ROM or CD-I and hi res color. So, now we see possible major boo-boo, which reads keep ATW out of US market so that it doesn't upstage the TT, but oh no, the TT now looks like it will shine dimly compared to the Sun and other rising stars, but since the high-end ATW is being kept somewhere in the stratosphere (read the European Elites) the TT must play ATW's role in the US with price and hype to match, but the developers/hackers/real-creative-people no longer will think the TT worth the money compared to its competitors and know damn well that it is going to be rapidly bypassed by RISC technology and truly capable graphic machines (again, needed for efficient animation and high res graphic and CD work...just listen to all the hassle the Mac II people have had trying to get their computers to gracefully do TV quality work.) Sooooo......thank goodness the ATW is finally being ADMITTED in the US marketplace, at least to a few developers and occasionally in public (such as the Canadian notice posted earlier)....and lets hope Atari recognizes just how ruthlessly the consumers and developers are beginning to play this field of information technology...few of us will put up with the short end of the stick for reasons of blind loyalty and hyped conviction. Dai Le'on (sorry about the rambling length....I'll stay off the soapbox for a while....(:) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 30 Fri Jun 23, 1989 GORDON at 10:18 EDT Lots of interesting points.. In your statement.. But how is Atari going to sell into the workstation market? They do not have the sales force, the service dept, or the mentality to do this. Atari likes to call up Kmart, Sears etc and sell 50,000 machines to them and not have people call them up and ask dumb questions. I takes a whole differnt outlook to sell $5000 computers then it does $300 portfollios or $150 hand held game machines.. Atari will do much better with the latter!! The way the company is set up now they will never be able to successfully sell a high priced computer! Think about this.. If Atari was a new company with no past reputation, no user base, the amount of advertising they had (none!) how many ST's do you think they would have sold? Not very many.. The game machines made the ST.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 31 Fri Jun 23, 1989 QMI at 23:31 EDT "Blue light special in isle 12 on Un*x boxes!"... I suppose Atari management must be smart enough to know that the TT needs a whole new way of doing business. I know they can design a good machine and have it made cheaply but after that I start to worry. For this machine, the game image and name recognition will be outweighed on the bad side... at the name recognition helped sell the ST and bring along 8- bit owners. The university crowd and the scientific community would rather see a new brand name with a great price. Atari should do what Panasonic did on stereo equipment around the early '70's... they had a problem being considered as a cheap transistor radio company... they used the Technics brand name in the US (National in other countries) and had a small "by Panasonic" under it. After they had some success marketing it, they took the Panasonic off altogether. Atari should start a new division (possibly team up with a well- known Un*x software house for support), create a new name (ACME computers would even be better!) and dispose of the Atari brand when ever PR makes sense to do so. John <the dime-store management consultant> DeMar ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 32 Sat Jun 24, 1989 TLMAY [Terry May] at 00:13 PDT John, I agree...a new name is necessary for the _general_ public to take the Atari computers seriously. Atari can't keep depending on former Atari users and their friends for support. Your analogy of Panasonic was a good one. -=<Terry May>=- ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 33 Sat Jun 24, 1989 WHITESTR at 09:21 PDT As to some marketing ideas concerning the ATW and TT, Gordon, here's what I would suggest... First, immediately drop any intentions to con the hacker/artist entrepreneur into committing to long-term education/entertainment development based solely on the TT as his/her primary workstation tool. Second, package the TT similarly to the ST, i.e. as a consumer product with the basic ports needed to plug in mail-order parts, with a generic graphical interface (*must* go beyond vanilla X-Windows), with 'neat-o' sound and VGA comparable monitor. In other words, give 'em just enough. (Certainly, Un!x was a smart move, as was TOS compatibility.) Next, let it be known that the TT is replacing the ST as the standard model in the Atari line. With that position comes the assurance that the TT will be gradually upgraded, that its marketing will be handled similiarly to the ST's except for a major change in advertising policy (i.e. same level of customer support, continued attempt to sell through upmarket dedicated stores <--grant it, limited progress here, but the TT would be considerably more attractive for the retailer) and that in return for buying Atari, the end-user gets generic power for a very affordable price. Simple enough, nothing too threatening to current corporate patterns... And while this public position is rapidly being consolidated, Atari needs a secret weapon, appropriated into the hands of a distinctly Atari circle, the interdisciplinary hacker. Now I know not everyone is going to agree with me here, but, from my observations, there exists a circle of ST users (along with Mac and Amiga) whose primary interests lie not in rudimentary (or obscure) computational techno-stuff nor in the drab complexities of 'business', but in the ARTS and HUMANITIES! So I suggest that US Atari puts together a somewhat European imported working group (likely stationed in Canada, actually) of inter- disciplinary ATW folk to explicitly offer developer/high-end user support for the sort of work which is portable and down-grade-able to the masses through VGA level personal computers, CD-ROM, and possibly CD-I machines or the entertainment specific players of the future. Characters such as Tim Oren come to mind. Is not this what NEXT and Jobs are attempting? Small is appropriate in this case...takes a sort of interest and intelligence and vision which goes a bit beyond just technical leadership (Sam T. spends time in Canada, yes?) Thus, to sum up...marketing of the TT is no problem if Atari doesn't try to make too much out of it. Marketing of the ATW must extend into multimedia (even IBM recently embraced multimedia _very_ strongly tho only from the long-term potential of DVI) and involve not only the sciences but the arts and humanities also (journalistic possibilites with these tools are enormous, if not obvious...I'm thinking here of the de-centralization of the film and TV and research industries.) This is likely only going to happen if US Atari and Overseas Atari can co-opt possibly through Canada Atari (hope Julius didn't quit because of policies which make this scenario totally unlikely.) Dai Le'on ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 34 Sat Jun 24, 1989 QMI at 12:43 EDT That SOUNDS all well and good but Atari builds for mass marketing and the low price prevents them from being too sophisticated with the support, etc. The 'cerebral' approach you're talking about might work for the ATW but that's not the critical machine for Atari to be profitable. The transputer could wake up some high-end users to the TT but the only way I see Atari making headway in the next year is to team up with a UN*X support company, and get the thing out soon! They will need a mainstreamed, consistent, continuous marketing/advertising effort and NOT depend on enthusiasts and word-of-mouth to sell the thing! John <what makes him such an authority?> DeMar ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 35 Sat Jun 24, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 14:22 EDT Sorry, but I really can't see them pulling it off. You can run a Amiga with a 68030 in it, and they have sold over 1,000,000 machines now. Apple now has the Mac IIcx (it's a beauty) and they will have a 33 mhz '030 machine out this year. Atari once said they would have a new machine out every 6 months. Apple has a new one out every four! And they are being taken seriously by the business and scientific community. Suns are getting cheaper too. I really can't see Atari breaking to the workstation market. Maybe two years ago... If they can come out with a _cheap_ 68030 St, then maybe. But I don't see them doing that. Problem is, the market's caught up with Atari. They have always known how to make inexpensive machines. But now the market has become much more complex and saturated. Other people know how to make cheap machines too (Apple is an example with the IIcx). And the rest have been forced into lowering their prices. The same thing happened with the consumer electronics field (radios and such). The first Walkman cost $200. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 36 Sat Jun 24, 1989 TOWNS at 19:42 EDT At the Fall Comdex in Las Vegas, Sam stated that we were shipping between 60,000 and 70,000 units worldwide per month (depending on the month) of ST/MEGA computers. We have been doing this for sometime. I think we have well over a 1,000,000 units out there. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 37 Sun Jun 25, 1989 QMI at 01:35 EDT John, He also stated that only 10% of the ST's were being shipped to the U.S. market... leaving 6000 to 7000 per month here. Knowing what has went on between Fall COmdex and now, I would say the numbers are far less than that today. With about 200 active dealers left, and buying 10 machines a month on average, I would say the number is more like 2000/month in the US! If I could login to your billing system on your VAX, I bet these numbers wouldn't be far off. Let's get moving! We know more ST's are being shipped outside the US, so where are they going? I talked with a manager at Atari UK who said they are selling mostly as a game machine (actually bundling games and advertising that fact!). Told me the market for applications is very slow. I wouldn't doubt that Germany is getting a good percentage of them but they only buy harware and blank disks! I have heard from several different sources that the dealers sell blanks, hand out copy programs, and let you have anything you want and copy iy right in the store! I know this is the TT topic but you brought it up. I'm only bringing out these pesimistic fact in order for someone to turn things around the other way. There is no room for error with the TT when competing with the likes of Apple and Sun! Apple can sell 50,000 Mac II's a month and they're a $6000 machine, not a $800 ST. John <whining again> DeMar PS: At the rate Atari was going when the ST first shipped, there should be a RISC-based lap-top machine with a holographic display buy now! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 38 Sun Jun 25, 1989 M.LOADER1 [Mike Loader] at 00:18 PDT Atari ads in Canada say that there are over 1.2 million ST's out there. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 39 Sun Jun 25, 1989 P.MCCULLOUGH at 14:10 EDT Is the $+4500 Unix TT intended for the home market? If so- it will fail- No home consumer will spend above $2000 for a home computer. (In fact, even a large screen TV in this price range is difficult to move!) I think the Unix TT is a silly idea- businesses just won won't buy Atari computers- period. I think a better alternative would be the cancellation of the Mega ST-2, and 520ST along with lower pricing on the 1040ST (Better if Atari makes it into a Mega ST1!) and on the Mega ST4 (Greater draw on DTP sales-). This would place the 1040/Mega ST1 in the 520ST niche, the Mega ST4 into the Mega ST2 niche (Albeit with a slightly higher price-) and allow the TT (w/o Unix) to fill the Mega ST4 slot (At around the current suggested pricing of the Mega ST4). As for the ATW- sell it to Universities w/o the Atari name on it- lets face it the name hurts. Look how Commodore marketed the Amiga without pushing their name until the computer had a committed market. (This may be a good idea for the TT, too. Or create a spin-off company for marketing these machines-) I believe D-RAM prices and other IC costs have fallen (and continue to fall) enough to justify a price decrease for these machines- and wasn't it Jack Tramiel who chastised IBM and Apple for high prices not too long ago? This looks for a fine opportunity to repeat history, and bring Atari back as a solid competitor. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 40 Sun Jun 25, 1989 TOWNS at 17:00 EDT John, Your numbers and figures are way off.. I will leave it at that. As for TT marketing.. no one has stated the market position of such a machine publicly. How can any expect me to comment on the intended market for such a machine. When TT is announced formally, then we can start to discuss the type of market it will compete in. Until that happens, this is all just guesswork. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 41 Sun Jun 25, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 16:42 MDT A few things here...first, the TT should be marketed exactly like the NeXT machine is being handled. They both sound like they would target similar markets. The ATW should be marketed as tose new Sun Sparcs stations. OK, easy right? :-) Atari needs to do more of what Apple did with the Mac and like what Jobbes (was that spelled right?) is doing with the NeXT. Have big press conferences with flashy demos and get the people interestead. The NeXT was a rather bland machine and I think that the TT would be a good competitor. As far as the ATW is concerned, we are getting more tricky. The ATW cannot be sold through the normal local dealers, It must be distributed by the big names such as Computerland as well as any local Atari dealers that want to carry it, but the normal Atari dealers don't get the right custommers. I also feel that the Atari 8-bit and games section should keep the Atari name, but the 16 and 32 bit computers should get a different one. Atari's main problem AGAIN is marketing. I have given many speeches about how bad it is and how they can improve it, but I don't feel like doing that now. All I can say is that the TT should be present to fight it out with tthe NeXT machine, but the ATW needs special attention, and to get out fast! Here is a possable marketing suggestion. The ATW should be offered in a "bundled" form. Unlike the STs where the person buys the computer and then the neccessary hardware and software, the ATW should come in different forms for the specific job it is to do. For example, if it were to be used as a CAD system (I think I read that someone was using it to design cars), sell it with the maximum graphics available, a large amount of ram the best math and 3-D coordinate coprocessors, and offer discounts, or at least reccomend certain software packages. The people who are going to buy the ATW are not going to be like the people who buy STs and can help themselves to whatever software they like, they don't want to shop, they just want to buy. They could really care less whether it was an IBM, or an Atari as long as the Atari could support certain starndards. They would be more inclined to buy an IBM because they have heard of it, but this type of people would buy an Atari if it made sense and was an easy purchase. In other words, they would not be willing to drive a long d distance to their nearest dealer, buy the computer, and then mail order software. They would want to make one purchase of computer/software, and only contact the dealer for support/help or to upgrade. Wow for not wanting to talk about marketing, I sure did. Thud--there, I fell of the soapbox, Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 42 Sun Jun 25, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 16:43 MDT .........oh by the way, I would like to see a ATW topic, I'm not much of a Unix person myself......... Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 43 Sun Jun 25, 1989 A.RICHARDSO7 [ATW MAN!] at 21:39 EDT My 2 cents: ATW all the way!! The ATW is Atari's best product. It is rumored to carry a reasonable price tag. All it needs is quality peripera oops peripherals and software. Marketing would be easy -- anyone who sees it will want to buy it if you show it properly! The ATW should be Atari's next bread and butter product..... Andy Richardson ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 44 Sun Jun 25, 1989 M.MCCANN2 at 21:52 EDT Hmm...Honda has Acura, and I think Nissan and Toyota are in process of goin same (upscale) route. Infiniti? et al. Cadillac? Lincoln? Is ATW the "Cadillac" of Ataris?? What's an ST, a Ford? A PC4, Chevy?? A 2600, a Yugo??? ;^) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 45 Mon Jun 26, 1989 TOWNS at 02:12 EDT Feel free to start a ATW topic if you would like.. I would like to see some discussions on the computer as well. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 46 Mon Jun 26, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 23:20 MDT TOWNS: A local TV station had a piece on the NeXT computers that the local university (Az State U ASU) got. anyway, it was amazing just how impressed they were with a machine that doesn't even have color!! Now, if only Atari could get the TT out and into the Universities like ASU, maybe we could finally get some respect for Atari computers!! So, what's the marketing plans for the TT?? Are you all going to push TTs to universities and colleges?? Is Atari going to try to line up some big shops like ComputerLand or BussinessLand to sell the TTs?? Because, as much as I like my local ST dealer, I just can't see him selling a $6K+ UNIX computer!!! Most of the ST dealers just have enough expertise to sell STs or maybe Amigas!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 47 Tue Jun 27, 1989 S.JOHNSON10 at 03:13 EDT It seems as if the TT won't be available for quite some time(early 1990, perhaps?)! Atari always seems to release new stuff long after everyone else hasreleased theirs! It looks as if the ATW is the only thing Atari has going for it, and that's not a home computer, at least for MOST homes it isn't! It also looks as if all Atari's DON'T SAY ANYTHING policy does is gets Atari users absolutely frustrated! I know Atari THINKS they know what they're doing, but do they REALLY? /s ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 48 Tue Jun 27, 1989 GORDON at 11:11 EDT I think QMI's numbers are more accurate then yours Towns.. 70,000 a month.. no way. Thats 840,000 a year. Atari is not selling that many ST's. Maybe ST's and 8 bits added together.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 49 Tue Jun 27, 1989 GORDON at 11:12 EDT ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 51 Tue Jun 27, 1989 GORDON at 12:15 EDT Yes, But by Atari announcing theirs early they get to set the price for everyone. <grin> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 52 Tue Jun 27, 1989 HS [Holly] at 15:26 EDT Oh, I'm sorry... but I do find it VERY amusing that all you guys outside are telling someone who actually works for the company what the company's sales figures are... *laugh* ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 53 Tue Jun 27, 1989 QMI at 18:32 EDT Towns, I will stick by my estimates because I have first-hand information to back it up. The fact that Atari doesn't brag about the numbers is proof itself. I think you will find any developer who is willing to admit it will tell you that sales are at an all-time low and would agree with my numbers. Disagreeing with us will not change the facts. I understand completely that Atari needs to put on a front to keep things from getting worse than they already are... and I agree with that in principal. But, I hear that Sig is complaining about the bad press and the pesimistic views in the Atari community and wants everyone to change their tone. That's almost insulting! It's past the point where people are willing to stand behind Atari with nothing happening. If Sig's request had followed a significant new release by Atari, I would have praised it highly and passed on the word to every disbeliever. Back to the topic at hand. I think this topic should continue (TT) regardless of the fact that Atari hasn't officially announced the product. The TT is too significant to wait until AFTER Atari announces to give them some feedback... now is the time to make the engineering and marketing changes necessary to make it a success. If Atari does not value the insight of developers and users who may know a few things Atari hasn't had the time or circumstance to learn about, just say so and we'll shut-up. Until then, I will assume that Towns is passing along the information, doing his best to quote the current company line (as he should) and some good will come out of it. Conclusions? 1) Everyone agrees that the 68030/TT and ATW need to be marketed under a new, non-Atari up-scale name. My example was the Panasonic/Technics success; I also like the example of Honda/Acura and other car companies with up-scale brand names. 2) The after-market support is critical to the success of a Unix machine or transputer; Atari needs a co- operative established software/support company to jump in head first with them from day one. I don't think they have the time to hire and train a support staff like they have done with the development staff. 3) The price point is not the significant factor for Atari to stand on. The current pricing from Sun, HP, DEC and others was not expected when the TT was first conceived. Time for a new game plan. 4) Do all the above soon! (before new factors come along.) John <hoping for the best> DeMar ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 54 Tue Jun 27, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 18:51 EDT I admit that Sigs comments offended me. Sorry Atari, I'm not going to be a cheerleader unless you give me something to cheer about. Us developers have put everything on the line for a very long time, and Atari shows us little concern. For example, Sig says don't be negative, yet I hear that the Dearborn show wasn't advertised as much as planned because Atari didn't put up the co-op money it promised. If that's true it sounds like the same old Atari to me. I hope you've seen a real change, Holly, and that your sales are good (considering the summer). I don't like what the distributors are telling me at all. They say Atari dealer sales are way down, and business is bad. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 55 Wed Jun 28, 1989 HS [Holly] at 00:24 EDT Maybe time to move this thread to 18... Mark, we probably aren't breaking any sales records so far this summer, but we're not dying on the vine either, which is good news, I guess. We're not a big store, so we can't afford too big of a slump. Our favorite distributor also said that it's slow, but that everything is slow... and it generally is slower in summer. We had already figured that part out fortunately. :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 56 Wed Jun 28, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 10:45 EDT That's good news Holly. Actually I checked into this months sales yesterday. It took extra effort, but this month was far better than last, was actually a pretty good month. Summertime is slower. It's the perfect opportunity for Atari to get it together. But if they wait until the fall it will be too late. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 57 Wed Jun 28, 1989 GORDON at 15:12 EDT You have to remember Towns is the guy who said the STacy would be on sale in the dealer near you on June 15th! At the WA show they did not even have a pre production model! (That was June 25th) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 58 Wed Jun 28, 1989 GORDON at 15:13 EDT Holly who do you think is closer to the truth, Towns or QMI??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 59 Wed Jun 28, 1989 HS [Holly] at 15:40 EDT Well, quite honestly, Gordon, in my eyes, QMI has very little creditability. I have a real problem trusting anything from a company that promises via Email and over the phone for 3 months to send you something as simple as literature so maybe you can sell their product for them, yet never does it. At least when Towns has told me he'd send me something, he's done it. But, the point that you missed is that it seems to me that John would certainly have access to more complete and more accurate information about sales figures than a company whose products failed to make headway in the ST market for whatever reason, like perhaps shipping a year late or so... Your mileage may vary, but that's what things look like from where I'm sitting. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 60 Wed Jun 28, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 18:08 EDT This does belong in 18 but I must say that sales figures are just speculation and perhaps Atari wants them to be that??? I give up trying to figure it out. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 61 Thu Jun 29, 1989 TOWNS at 02:26 EDT I refuse to get involved in this discussion any further. I stand behind what I have said here and have nothing to add to it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 62 Thu Jun 29, 1989 QMI at 13:05 EDT Holly, I assumed you received the information long ago. CSS and Triangle Elec carry DeskCart and ST-Talk Pro. This isn't the topic to discuss QMI's sales and future... we're trying to analyze the current state of affairs at Atari and where they will be going with the ST/TT. As one of the last Atari dealers in the U.S. (and a relatively new one), you have the right to feel defensive at whomever who can take a shot at. The sales figures I've estimated are based on the number of dealers left who are willing to carry Atari ST products (not just QMI products). So, as this topic says: What about the TT? Well, to make sure I wasn't off in left field with my ideas about marketing the TT, I passed the idea by a few people. One of them is a purchasing agent for a large university, a couple of them are senior engineers and managers for General Electric, and another is a partner in a consulting engineering firm. Given the estimated price and specification of an 'Atari Un*x workstation', I asked if they would consider purchasing one or recommending one. The answer was unanimously: no. Then, hypothestically, if the computer was marked with a new brand name and support could be found through normal channels (Un*x software houses, high-end resellers), they said either: sounds like it would be competitive; or we'll get one and compare it to HP's, Sun's and MacII's we have. It has to do mostly with making a comfortable, safe decision. Most people aren't willing to take a chance with their business, or their job or their reputation by recommending a name which is associated with games. If it's a home computer, people are either buying a dedicated game machine or a PC- compatible (again, the safe decision). There will always be a few people willing to shop for the best equipment purely by technical criteria... I don't think those people make a big enough crowd to market to for either the low end or high end. Some heavy (ie: expensive) marketing and advertising is needed to change the way people think. JD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 63 Fri Jun 30, 1989 HS [Holly] at 00:12 EDT I was asked who I believed more, and I answered given my experience with both companies. No "shots" were intended. As stated it was my view based on my experiences. (But as a side note, I don't see how you could have thought I received the material when my last message to you, after numerous others, stated that I was no longer interested in your products because I didn't feel that a company that could not even make literature available was going to be able to support their products.) In any respect, there is at least one new dealer in this area (Kokomo, to be exact), and another who is looking to set up shop. In addition, we've been in business over a year, so I hardly thinks that makes us one of the more recent. However, I agreed with whomever suggested the idea a while ago that the TT and the ATW (and possibly the entire computer line) would benefit from being marketed under a subdivision name. On the other hand, I have recently been talking to some of the folks at the university here, and there seems to be no small amount of interest in the new machines, even (and perhaps especially) right down to Stacy. The Portfolio has perhaps made people take a second glance towards Atari, and perhaps if Atari Corp can follow up with several successful releases in a row, credibility can once again be renewed. That issue was, I believe, heavy on the minds of many dealers I spoke to at WOA. The TT does indeed have some capabilities that might set it apart, and, hopefully, above other machines. Do I think it will happen? Yes, but unfortunately not in the way I wish it would. Deadlines being what they generally are in this business, I wouldn't plan on seeing the TT's release here until mid-1990. I'd like nothing more than to have Atari Corp make a liar out of me on it, but I'm not holding my breath. But I also think it will end up being released under the Atari label... which, if released on time, may or may not be a mistake. A bang-up job on the TT could mean renewed interest in the rest of the computer line. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 64 Fri Jun 30, 1989 S.NOAH at 00:03 PDT With all the talk about new machines going on, perhaps we should ask ourselves where all of these new machines are going to be built. This isn't a new question, but it is a timely one. As far as I know Atari is still operating only one producion facility, the plant in Taiwan. Will this facility be able to satisfy the production requirements entailed in developing all these new devices ( eg. ATW, TT, STacy, portable game machine, etc. ). ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 65 Fri Jun 30, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 11:48 EDT I wouldn't be surprised at all if Atari was selling 3-5K machines a month. I don't think it's much less (or else we have a large market share!) but I don't think it's much higher either. I do know that Atari's production was low last year, and that they increased early this year. I don't have any idea on if more machines are being shipped or warehoused though. I think naming the TT (or whatever) "Atari" would be the curse of death though. Maybe it would have worked if they did a better job on the ST. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 66 Fri Jun 30, 1989 HS [Holly] at 15:02 EDT Mark, I think you said it to me elsewhere when you noted that when the ST first came out, it looked as if it would be the next messiah. The machine was good, solid and at a great price. If Atari had run with it then, I don't think it would have been touchable. Unfortunately, I don't think the TT has the same technological quickstart that the ST had, so Atari really does have their work cut out for them. S.NOAH... the new game machine only carries the Atari name, I believe, and is not actually manufactured by Atari Corp. Hmmm... I wonder if Atari could farm out the manufacturing on the other equipment since they lack a US facility. Interesting point made. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 67 Fri Jun 30, 1989 GORDON at 15:03 EDT Last I heard the Portfolio and the P Game Machine are going to be made in Japan. (contracted out) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 68 Fri Jun 30, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:13 EDT I personally don't believe that having the Atari name on either the TT or the ATW will affect interest. They are both reported to be very powerful machines with features that set them apart from others. Look how many times articles appear about the Amiga being used in video production work. And it is obvious to everyone that it is a Commodore. I believe it is more the other way around, that the ATW and the TT will bring greater recognition and prominance to the Atari name. The real key for the ATW in particular is what kind of software will appear to exploit its capabilities. There just aren't that many top parallel programmers to go round. Although, I think most would jump at the chance to work with a low-cost (market relative) parallel machine such as the ATW. Hopefully, the TT won't be tied to a 16MHz 68030. I feel that would be a mistake. Something along the lines of a 25MHz version would be better to place it in the front running. Be nice to see both with built-in GENLOCK. Considering the displays, this is something many people would be interested in. As far as I know, the Atari market is still aimed at the Home/Personal market, primarily. This market requires greater flexibility and more features than the Professional/Business market coming right out of the box. After all, I don't think you'll see Sun putting MIDI ports on their workstations any time soon. It's about time we started to see systems that will remain on most if not all of the day, handling different aspects of household control (such as security) without keeping the owner from playing a game or writing a letter (or new song). I think the main point I babbling about is that you can't go to a university or business and say, "Do you think you'll buy one of Atari's new machines?" before the machines are out. If you had suggested to most of the engineers that are now using Mac II's that they use an Apple for some of the things the Mac II is being applied to before it was out, they probably would have laughed. (And I have a good feeling that the Atari machines will look pretty impressive next to the Mac II's, especially at half the price.) -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 69 Fri Jun 30, 1989 WHITESTR at 19:54 PDT John D., your 'on the street' interviews sound like they reflect actuality. However, I'm wondering just what price you suggested the TT will go for. Herein lies the crux of whether the TT will sell a 100,000 or 10,000 (at least initially.) As someone looking to be able to do sophisticated art work and visual processing, I know that built in ability to run TOS is quite meaningless to me. And the Atari name is a definite minus (guess I don't really expect corporate patterns to change with the TT...just isn't a serious _enough_ machine.) If I have to spend $4-5000 for a base unit with monitor, I will invest in a product which has a large base of third-party developers (talking hardware here as much as software...) Or, I'll intelligently look at how rapidly the market of Un!x stations is dropping into an attitude of _real_ power without the price and purchase for a little more an expandable RISC based system which isn't limited to a rather paltry 256 colors on screen at once. After all, if I can purchase an ATW from England this week for $8500 with quality monitor, then I'm likely going to be able to purchase one later this year, when (or if) the TT becomes available, for more like $6000 in the US. Why in the world, given the fact that the ATW has tremendously more potential than the TT, would I buy the lesser machine at only a 25-33% price differential? Furthermore, (I'm registered developer #549, and joined in over a year ago) there are hundreds of developers working on ATW products _now_....Tim King (main partner of Perihelion Software and author of Helios) visited us last year and from his accounts, the software being successfully worked on for the ATW is 'beyond awesome'. Now all of this changes radically if the TT is brought in with a nifty but resolution-limited monitor (kinda like the ST, eh?) for *under* $2500. In fact, if Atari markets the base unit without hd or monitor for $1995...well, heh, I think these things will really take. Figure in a little discounting and I think alot of ST people will be looking to upgrade. Sell it to that slice of the education market which is being forced to look at price as a prime consideration and I think the *Atari* name will soon be seen as a positive once more (:) Dai p.s. I think that pushing for a 'name change' on either the TT ("you mean the upgrade to the Atari ST?") or the Atari Transputer Workstation (now selling in countries where that is a quite respectable name) is barking up the wrong tree. Power Without the Price, is, from my view, the WHOLE ISSUE. p.s.s.John, thought I'd mention that my partners and I have been using ST-Talk since it came out (and Pro, of course). We never touch any other telecomm app.! Hope you do as nice of work on the next machines... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 70 Sat Jul 01, 1989 P.MCCULLOUGH at 01:28 EDT Atari's name could be on it- fine print on back of unit. Also, make the box easily accessable (open arch.) and upgradeable- the biggest short-comings of the ST/Mega line. John- didn't mean to offend by suggesting TT marketing, I just think its time to "retire" some ST models (520ST, Mega 2- my CPU- no favoritism here!) and to move the others into different niches. As things stand, the proposed (Truly speculated-) prices of the TT will conflict on the small Mega ST4 market. I do think that Atari's DTP package is brilliant- but no one but Atari dealers and users know it exists. And the TT will boot :-) the Mega ST4 out of DTP if just for its speed increase. One thing that I have come to realize is that Atari isn't the only computer manufacturer climbing the MAC/IBM mountain- Commodore is in BIG trouble right now. Local papers (S. Jersey) recently reported that CBM suffered a 20+ point drop on the American Stock Exchange- also, Amiga mags are beginning to grumble about the revolving door at Commodore. (ie. Constant departures/arrivals of new employees!) Sound familiar. Granted, Amiga is a stronger seller, but not a devastator. I was also surprised to catch some disatisfaction over Amiga models- evidently, people are grumbling that they want a less bulky model then the 2000, but with the same power. Some are also complaining of over saturation of the Amiga market. It is heartening to to see Atari making modest gains and oddly, I have noticed a slow but steady increase in ST only stores here in the Delaware valley. None of these were around a year ago when I was searching desparately for a place to buy a Mega! One more note- Electronics Boutique has evidently, for the 2nd time dropped the Amiga hard/software line. Makes room for ST? TT?? ATW??? NAH! I do agree with others that the TT/ATW systems should sell thru the professionals. Perhaps a non-business TT (Call it ST-II or ST+) say in a Mega frame with say 2 megs for us poor folks could be introduced? PVM ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 71 Fri Jun 30, 1989 S.NOAH at 23:09 PDT Why not just produce the TT as an OEM UNIX BOX for computer stores ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 72 Sat Jul 01, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 15:44 MDT Just so everyone is aware, a new ATW section has just been added!!! it is topic 38 in this catagory! Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 73 Sat Jul 01, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 19:30 MDT You all are talking like you *ACTUALLY* expect Atari to sell the TT in the present configuration in the near future!! I would be very surprised to see the TT before 1990, and then it will probably have a propretiary non- expandable (aka Mega ST) buss that no one else will ever support!! Get real, and just go out and buy a Mac IIX now!!! I can't see what the mythical TT is supposed to have that you can't already get in a Mac IIX!!! And you get support from Apple, which anyone has to say is better then the non-existent support from Atari (I mean 2 years just to update the TOS ROMs???). Just some thoughts from a person who still likes his two STs!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 74 Sat Jul 01, 1989 G.E.M. at 20:50 PDT One thing the 'mythical' TT will have is a MUCH lower price tag than the Macintrash. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 75 Sun Jul 02, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 10:23 MDT G.E.M. but will it have the third vendor support that the Mac enjoys?? I mean, the Macs already have a CD ROM full of over 400 megs of PD Mac sw. but, TOAD COMPUTERS is already selling a 44 meg removable hard drive, for the ST, so there is some hope for ST third vendors out there!! Did anyone check the statement from Sig Hartman at the WOA show that the TT would be out by then end of the year, or he would quit? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 76 Sun Jul 02, 1989 QMI at 14:15 EDT If anyone has captured the "TT" topic on Usenet, could you upload it to me? G.E.M. Calling the Mac "the Macintrash" is rediculous and lowers the seriousness of our discussions. (Just because I can't afford a Ferrari, I don't call it junk! But I do call my Oldsmobile nasty names every day!). The price of a Mac reflects the unbelievable amount of support they offer to all segments of their business. They have more employees than all of Atari US just to handle the education market, for instance. The MacIIcx will soon have a standard speed of 25MHz and by the time Atari releases the TT, the industry will be at 30Mhz as a standard. More importantly, RISC-based computers are coming down in price and are better performers at 20MHz than a 68030 would be at several times the speed. I have to assume that Atari will inevitably release the TT within a year and that the price/features will be fairly close to the generally known description. These assumption are based on knowing the time it would take to change the design plans and the urgency of getting this product out in order for Atari to stay in the running. Current trends show that the "Power without the Price" way of doing business (in the US anyways) doesn't work anymore. It's far more complicated than that, with marketing methods being the most important. It would take forever to list all of the factors and cost of doing it right is astronomical. Atari could find a niche or two (as with MIDI on the ST) and sell quite a few TT's, but the computer would never make it as a mainstream brand name without a different name and all of the marketing/support etc. JD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 77 Sun Jul 02, 1989 WHITESTR at 19:15 PDT JD--since you've brought up the concept of complexity, perhaps I'll add some notes regarding current marketing theory. The information industry does not operate according to old theories of 'diminishing returns'. The complexity involved with the pool of information consumers is in fact *so* great, as to lend itself mathematically and practically to a model of 'chaos'. Not to get too snooty or abstract here, 'cause this stuff is lived as much in Jack T.'s gut as it is in theorist's heads, but put squarely, it is now understood that price/power/recognition of a given product can literally 'snap' a market in totally unforeseen ways (<--read not figured out through an analysis of 'diminishing returns'.) To see the marketing of the TT in terms of very specific niche needs is not to see it in terms of how it _is_ going to be marketed...to the MASSES. Once the product has disrupted the field (and disruption is a must) it _geometrically_ gains 'dominance' as the presense and urgency of the product draws that attention which would otherwise be attracted to another 'disruptor'. War in this field exists in a context of instigated catastrophe, be that in specific niches or specific societies. Advertising truly counts (propaganda is a must), and there is a terrific amount of strength in the common-man position of Power Without the Price. That one stance is good for a whole lot of disruption, which is why the US computer establishment so shuns even the mentioning of Jack Tramiel and the Atari Corporation. The information business, addressing as it does the human intellect, is premised on the intuition of 'increasing returns', not diminishing ones, and Atari Corp. still shows signs of realizing that. Le'on ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 78 Mon Jul 03, 1989 T.ONDERS [Tim Onders] at 23:58 EDT One must also realize that, while the 'TT' will be partially aimed at the market niche presently filled by the Macintosh II-whatevers, it will be more closely matched with much stiffer competition, such as Sun, NeXT, and SGI. The 'TT' is supposed to be a Unix box, which is something the Mac II does not do particularly well (AUX is not terribly plesant). With the Sun 3/60 down under $10K, and the SparcStation around $15K, the NeXT at $10K commercial, the SGI Personal Iris starting at $12K, and 386i's for under $8K, Atari will be entering a fierce market. The biggest danger, as I see it, is from Sun; a company that will do anything to sell their systems. Unless the 'TT' is particularly impressive, or particularly inexpensive, is probably will not do well. -Tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 79 Tue Jul 04, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:32 EDT But at the price of software for a Sun and for peripherals, I think there will be plenty of room for the Atari machine. The great thing about Atari's position in this area is that even more so than the Mac II (which I think greatly surprised Sun) it will be ignored by the competition until it captures a greater share of the market than expected. Sun is shifting their marketing to compete with Mac II, I'll doubt they'll want to shift again to combat Atari. Given the features reported for the TT and believing there may be a few more surprises thrown in, I think Atari should be able to grab a significant piece of the market. Remembering also that Atari is better positioned to move quickly into the personal computer niche with the TT (something Sun might find difficult or even ignore) and this machine will surely be what people will soon expect from a personal computer. I hope there are lots of great features because I think personal computing has the most fascinating drive and I want to see what that share of the market can do with such a machine. I think the price is workable even if it may appear a little high to the Atari community. I have met more and more people who are laying down $2k-$3k for personal systems. Take a look at what it REALLY costs to put together an 8-bit Atari system (monitor, drive and all) and it starts to look pretty silly next to an ST. There seems to be a minimal price point of about $500 to $800 (discounted) to put together a system. Faster chips and memory do not appear the real base, but things like monitors, drives and keyboards. Anyway, I'm still looking forward to the TT and feel it has a very viable chance for success. (I do feel a 25MHZ or better processor will give it a longer lifespan.) -Craig W. Daymon P.S. R.COVERT1, Your comment about an Atari specific bus doesn't hold with any reports given on the TT. All reports indicate a VME bus, the standard on Unix microprocessor systems. (Besides, wasn't the Apple bus specific to the Mac II?) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 80 Tue Jul 04, 1989 TOWNS at 21:11 EDT Yes, Craig.. The Mac II uses NuBus. Not VME from what I have heard. As to what the TT will contain, I do not know. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 81 Tue Jul 04, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 20:09 MDT C.DAYMON, The MacII uses a MODIFIED NuBus, not a true NuBus. For one thing, the Mac II NuBus isn't as fast as a real nubus. The Atari could make a great market for itself if it has a FAST (30 megahertz) bus to do fast video graphics. As for the bus in the TT, even John Townsend keeps repeating that the TT 's buss was never announced. So, who knows if it will be a real VME buss (a great thing if true) or some bastardized kludge of a buss (aka the Mega ST buss). I would LOVE to buy a TT, simply for the better graphics, but knowing how slow Atari is to provide support (still waiting for a working flow control version of TOS 1.4), I don't have a lot of faith in Atari much these days. Hopefully, Atari will prove me wrong and the TT will be wonderful!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 82 Wed Jul 05, 1989 P.MCCULLOUGH at 00:42 EDT Actually the MAC IIx machines (x here standing for any number of models in this distended family-) are very nice if one has no problem spending truckloads of greenbacks. But if I had those bucks, I'd buy a Sun anything over the Scottish fruit any day. The Sun systems are going to do serious damage to the high end Mac II family. The TT really has no competition (Especially since it doesn't exist as yet in anything other then prototype model-) in its price/market. It'll probably go head to head with Commodore (Assuming Commodore can keep alive after its massive stock dives and sales losses of late- wonder what's going on over there anyway). The other problem with the Mac systems in general are Apple's marketing them as "serious" competition to IBM. Please, get real. The only problem is that if the speculation is correct on the TT price tag (And there's no reason to assume it is) I think the TT will be a difficult sale. Atari needs computer sales in some really BIG business market with BIG visibility if it hopes to sell TTs there. It would be nice if Atari tried donating STs to schools- when students learn on a system, they stick with it. But the fact remains that business has always been, and probably will continue to be Big Blue domain. PVM ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 83 Wed Jul 05, 1989 GORDON at 14:38 EDT I think the TT will be VERY aggressivly priced. The question is will UNIX people buy a low priced machine that does not have the hand holding and support they are used to???? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 84 Wed Jul 05, 1989 C.DAYMON at 22:42 EDT I think there are a GREAT number of Unix people that are waiting for a low (moderately) priced Unix machine and I don't (although I hope it's there) think lack of support will stop them. As the ST market is filled with people ready and willing to tear open their machines to try some tempting mod, so there are a great many Unix people using accelorated AT class machines. I know one guy that has 3 such systems running in his house. They are also people that after getting a TT (Unix) box at home would be very apt to push it into the work environment. (In which most of them are using/administrating Unix systems.) There is a big market for such a machine, the key is that Atari should NOT ignore the very large market associated with support for Unix machines sold to businesses/universities. After all, they would just charge for answering questions (after some initial free support period) and this would keep them up on things in-house to better support and enhance future products. I think the VME bus was mentioned in the Atari Explorer issue that talked about the TT. This, even though it hasn't always been, should be one publication that accurately reports information on Atari products. It's easy enough to check. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 85 Thu Jul 06, 1989 HS [Holly] at 00:58 EDT Gordon, If dealers are selling the TT, a company might well get the kind of hand- holding they're used to. It will depend on the dealer. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 86 Wed Jul 05, 1989 G.E.M. at 22:11 PDT Regarding the bus structure. If Atari really wants to make a mark, the TT should support not only the VME bus, but Future bus as well. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 87 Thu Jul 06, 1989 WHITESTR at 07:15 PDT Gordon, when you mention expected handholding (bet you some guys would get a bit peeved at that comment, true or not) are you refering to end-user or developer? I'm thinking that if Atari slaps on a GUI (X.desktop possibly??) and works on porting some popular apps so that they are compatible, handholding becomes no more a need, neccessarily, than on the ST. For developers, well, that's another story. Le'on ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 88 Thu Jul 06, 1989 GORDON at 14:56 EDT Actually what I was refering to was the simple fact that you do not go to the local store and purchase a Sun workstation. A TRAINED salesman from SUN visits you, sells you the computer and makes sure you know how to use it. He also makes sure things like what happened on here recently do not happen (a computer was lost in repair for 6 months). Its just a different approach. I think everyone here will admit that Atari is not at the top of the list for prompt efficient customer service. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 89 Thu Jul 06, 1989 QMI at 16:39 EDT Gordon, SUN's *ARE* being sold through computer stores now... thru the CompterLand chain. It takes a special type of dealer, though, and just about all of the Atari dealers (that are left) would not have the resources to handle the support needed for a UN*X machine. With the lower prices on the Sun ws's, they aren't making those individual sales visits like they used to do. With this new low end approach, it will make it harder for anyone to compete with Sun. Le'onm I agree that a graphical user interface is a MUST for the un*x side of the TT... or any lower-priced workstation. I hope Atari is talking with a company who will license a well-known working environment to be included with the base computer. From everything I have heard, it looks like the TT will be priced very closely to an equivalent Sun machine. Sounds like a critical problem and worth at least a few 'choas-theory-styled' board meetings! JD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 90 Thu Jul 06, 1989 BREHBOCK at 22:13 CDT There are a lot of aggressive VARS out there that are doing quite well with the Everex Step (TM) series, and the TT would fit in that niche rather well. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 91 Thu Jul 06, 1989 M.MCCANN2 at 23:44 EDT I think I must disagree with the contention that Atari is bad at customer service. Recently my color monitor died and I sent it from here (east coast) to there and it was back in exactly 3 weeks. I was, to be frank, shocked. I was told to expect 6-8 weeks, which I was truly expecting (as in, 6 at best). Three was simply outstanding. Of course, being able to take it in for repair locally would be faster still, BUT as that will probably not be possible till the 1 millionth or so ST is sold in the US (IF THEN, around HERE), this WAS a quick and reasonable alternative... By the way, it was a Goldstar, and the flyback was melted, after 2 years' use. These things happen...too bad I can't get a Goldstar flyback or I'd still have it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 92 Thu Jul 06, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 22:07 MDT Of course this is all pure speculation, as Atari has never even admitted publicly that the TT exists, or when it will ship. Just ask John Townsend. John keeps repeating that nothing can be said about the TT until it is released. So, who really knows what it will be like. To back this up, think back about 3 years, and remember what features the Blitter chip was supposed to have. And look at the Blitter that was released. IT Only has about half the features that Atari said it was supposed to have. So, I don't believe anything about the TT until it is released. Until then, Atari can change from the VME buss to one of their own design if they so choose. This is not to say that I don't want one, because I do!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 93 Fri Jul 07, 1989 GRIBNIF at 23:23 EDT What I think Atari needs to do, in addition to the TT with all of its features and ports and doo-dahs is release a lower end 68030 like Apple has done with the SE 68030. This would be a Mega 4 with a 68030 and the higher resolutions of the TT. Correctly priced to fit between the TT and the Mega 4. Of course, I doubt Atari would do this. I would also recommend the release of a Mega 1 to dealers for $1,199-mono and $1,399 color and adding it to the Mega dealer line. Then take the 1040ST and release it mass-market. (Discontinue the 520ST or release it mass-market too). This would allow a 1Meg machine to go mass market and get better sales and such, while allowing dealers to still carry a 1 Meg low priced machine that only they have. I also think they should take the Moniterm and their present $4,000 Mega 4 DP package, bundle it with Calamus and release a Moniterm DP Package for $5,999.95. Pity I don't work for Atari... Rick ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 94 Sat Jul 08, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 14:58 MDT As far as Apple having better costumer support than Atari, well they have more resources, but I have heard many people complain about the costomer service that Apple has. I have also heard many complain (I am one who does) about the buggyness and the amount of systems they keep releasing. I have run systems that over a period of time become unstable and use more and more ram, and no one can explain it. I have worked with many different Macs, and if you told a service person about the errors I have gotten, he would say that's impossable. At least the STs errors are predicatable! And I have talked to Apple users who say for over a year that Apple has been promising a laptop mac, well where is it? Now as far as releasing the STs for mass marketing, do you mean sell them at Sears, I hope not. If Atari sells computers at Sears, noone will even take the ATW seriously! I mean that Atari can sell 8-bits at Sears with only minor damage to their name, but when they sell 16-bit computers through Sears, noone will take their 16-bit computers seriously. Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 95 Sat Jul 08, 1989 DMAY [Student] at 18:46 EDT The summer is a rather slow for customer returns since most of the problems arise during the XMAS season from all those video game systems. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 96 Mon Jul 10, 1989 WLR at 01:29 PDT Basically, I think Atari's TT will fail in the marketplace because as computers get more expensive and buyers get more vertically based with the third party software and hardware availibilty and support being as important or more important than the computer itself a high-end computer from Atari who has been established as neither here nor there to third party manufactors/companies. Atari's customers have been, in the past, willing to wait for software to meet their needs to come onto the marketplace. People that buy computers that cost 4K plus know exactly what software to buy and will NOT wait for dreamy promises from anyone like many early Mac/ST & Amiga users did. I mean would you buy a TT for a certain application, pay the big bucks and sit and wait for a third party to develop it. Some might say well the machine is backward compatable-- if that is true then the buyer would buy the cheaper machine nor the TT. Worse, Atari no longer has a upgradeable loyal user base. Atari also cannot play the "Power without the Price" game. Reason: Unlike the ST verses the old Mac where the ST was twice the machine for half the price the TT will be about the same machine for about 2/3 the price when in the marketplace to WOW! a buyer it would NOW have to be four times the machine at half the price. THAT is why the TT will do a piddle of business in the U.S. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 97 Mon Jul 10, 1989 GORDON at 13:52 EDT QMI. John where did you hear that the TT was going to be the same price as a SUN. I heard it was going to be real cheap!!! As far as a Graphical User Interface. Atari has GEM and GDOS!! (sound of Gordon ducking) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 98 Mon Jul 10, 1989 C.DAYMON at 23:18 EDT There is also a version of GEM that runs under Unix (via X-Windows) and since the TT will run Unix, there should be plenty of powerful software very fast. Over 20 years of Unix must mean there is some good stuff out there that will show up almost immediately for the TT. Besides, there are a great many very good ST programs that will surely shine running on the TT. (Any DTP program, DynaCAD, LDW Power, Touch-Up,...) This machine DOES have a market RIGHT NOW! The ATW also has a market, but may be slightly slower to develope because of the limited number of programmers experienced with parallel computing. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 99 Tue Jul 11, 1989 LEN-F at 01:28 EDT I can't imagine that the TT or the ATW (come on, let's get some catchy, palatable names for these machines!!!!!!) will succeed in the marketplace given the ATROCIOUS way Atari treats dealers and their REDICULOUS AVERSION to advertising. It is a shame that the fate of these fine machines is in the hands of such seemingly incompetent businesspeople! LEN F ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 100 Tue Jul 11, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 11:42 EDT Gordon, I think John was refering to Atari's track record of bringing out a machine at more than they expected (let alone later than expected). Two years ago they were saying "under 5000". A lot has happened since then, and SUn machines are _much_ cheaper now. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 101 Wed Jul 12, 1989 BREHBOCK at 00:52 CDT Rick, I say we (Atari Owners/Retailers/Developers) all buy up a bunch of Atari stock, and start kind of an ESOP, but it would be an O-SOP: Owner-Stock- Ownership-Plan! Ok-ok, you can be CEO :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 102 Sat Jul 15, 1989 R.GRIDLEY [Rick] at 09:22 EDT A lot of companies, smaller ones, would be inticed by a Unix/TT system that could use 520ST's as smart terminals in the TT network. Low cost and high power for said network could be a real plus in selling. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 103 Sat Jul 15, 1989 TOWNS at 15:38 EDT Point well taken.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 104 Sun Jul 16, 1989 S.NOAH at 01:53 PDT If the TT is indeed going to support Unix and X-Windows, has anyone given any thought to creating an X-Windows terminal program for the ST ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 105 Sun Jul 16, 1989 TOWNS at 15:40 EDT I think one already Exists.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 106 Sun Jul 16, 1989 C.DAYMON at 22:29 EDT There's probably a few in the Unix public domain. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 107 Tue Jul 18, 1989 K.BAD [S/W Engine] at 21:33 EDT An X-terminal is not that easy to implement, I seriously doubt that there are any useable PD ones. And I think John's right - I believe one X-ists ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 108 Tue Jul 18, 1989 G.E.M. at 22:46 PDT If the TT implements X-Windows, it better use X11. That's the new standard. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 109 Wed Jul 19, 1989 C.DAYMON at 22:18 EDT I relatively sure that the code for X-Windows is PD via MIT, so I doubt that Atari would go with anything less than the latest version. (Besides, I think X11 has been around for a while now.) A better question is whether Atari is planning support of Motif or Open Look. Seems like Motif is winning and from the pictures, it looks better. Anybody know functionally which may be stronger? A machine like the TT may well be able to SET the next standard if they choose wisely. (Considering the lower planned price than other competing machines.) Have there been any talks with Pixar about porting RasterMan? (To the ATW also.) -Craig W. Daymon P.S. Latest trade journals report Motif is due to ship very soon. I do hate the idea that IBM has a claw in it, but it does seem to have support. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 110 Wed Jul 19, 1989 K.BAD [S/W Engine] at 23:24 EDT As far as I know, we have not settled on a user interface standard for the Unix version of TT. It seems more important for us to wait for the dust to clear among the competing X user interface standards. We do have a "standard" graphical shell that will be shipped with the thing, though. ttfn... (*ken @ atari*) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 111 Wed Jul 19, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 23:49 MDT oh wow!! Ken you really shouldn't talk about the TT in public!! You *know* that the TT has never been officially announced!! You are gonna get into trouble with Sam T if you aint careful!! But, we all here want to know more!! What is the graphical shell?? Multi-tasking TOS?? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 112 Wed Jul 19, 1989 S.NOAH at 23:07 PDT If an X-terminal program for the ST X-ists, it might be a nice idea for Atari to mention it as part of any future "TT" sales literature. If they could sell STs ( even 520 without drives could be used if the program was on a cartrige ) as remote terminals for the TTs. They could thus offer a total multiuser Unix system with a graphic interface. Something like this could be a nice package for a small or medium sized business. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 113 Thu Jul 20, 1989 TOWNS at 03:04 EDT Hmm, that is a good idea. I will pass it along to the marketing gurus here at Atari. And yes, Ken.. what are you trying to do! Get us all in trouble? :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 114 Thu Jul 20, 1989 DOUG.W [ST*SYSOP] at 03:14 EDT I think the biggest problem with X-Windows would be memory requirements. If I remember right, X-Windows requires around 2 Megs, without any programs running. Also, to get any speed out of it, you would probably have to by-pass TOS entirely (MT-C Shell is just bearable, and it doesn't have any windowing, and VSH Manager is UNBEARABLY slow). --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 115 Thu Jul 20, 1989 S.NOAH at 23:08 PDT Hmm... I don't know about the memory requirements for an X-terminal, 2 Megs sounds like quite a bit though. Since we have a mixed environment at work ( 6 VAXs, an IBM Mainframe, 2 Microvaxs, and a couple of hundred P.C.s ) I get to see a lot of networking literature. One thing I noticed quite a bit are schemes to convert older P.C.s ( PC, XT ) for use as X-terminals. It's a good idea, because of all the uses that these machines could be put to, this one dosn't require any changes to the motherbaord. ( I must mention that there had been proposals to upgrade these machines to 386 boards. ) Further, our service vendor ( DEC ) will not work on machines if they have a non stock system board. So, this idea gives new life and usefulness to these older machines. P.S. Sorry that I digressed, I meant to say that If a 640k PC could be set up as an X-terminal, I don't know why a 1Meg ST would have any problem doing the same. P.P.S. Now all I have to do is try and convince someone to put DEC- Windows up on one of the VAXs, even the Micro VAX would do, so that we could test some of this out. Not likely, we can't even get approval to let the users test Word Perfect. Were stuck supporting Mass(ive)-11 ( ...ugh ). Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 116 Fri Jul 21, 1989 DOUG.W [ST*SYSOP] at 04:06 EDT I would suspect that a 640K X-Terminal could only support a subset of the complete X-Windows system. The UNIX system I use has 8Megs of RAM, and after starting the system (without X-Windows running), there is 4.4Megs free. After starting X-Windows this drops to around 2.7Megs without any processes running. --Doug P.S. this is a 25Mhz 68030 machine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 117 Fri Jul 21, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:44 EDT 8Megs down to 4.4 with just Unix? Sounds like a LOT of programs have been set to be resident. (not paged) We have had Unix V.3 running on a 2Meg Motorola system for over a year now with no problems. (Except for a few we inflicted on ourselves in development.) Do you have a large cache? -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 118 Fri Jul 21, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:16 PDT To be honest I don't know a lot about the workings of an X-terminal, but one question does come to mind. When you load X-windows on your Unix system are you then capable of supporting remote X-terminals on your machine ? This feature, I would imagine, would take up a lot more of the system's resources than the "terminal only" set up I had in mind. THe ST would be just a dumb terminal ( in the same way as I am using mine for to enter this message, just a more sophisticated one ). ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 119 Sun Jul 23, 1989 DOUG.W [ST*SYSOP] at 00:53 EDT Good point. Yes, this machine is capable of supporting remote X-Terminals at the same time. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 120 Sat Jul 22, 1989 S.WHITNEY at 22:11 PDT About support... How about selling the TT cheap and then hiting a couple of phone support people and _charging for support. Atari might even make a profit as well as making their system competitive where support is required! --Steve ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 121 Sun Jul 23, 1989 C.DAYMON at 16:39 EDT Wow! An Atari '900' number! 1-900-FIXMYTT. Only $.50 a minute. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 122 Sun Jul 23, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 16:03 MDT How much networking/multitasking will the TT be able to handle? i thought that it was just an expensive and high level personal computer-like the Mac II, and the ATW was the real networking beast. Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 123 Tue Jul 25, 1989 T.ONDERS [Tim Onders] at 19:44 EDT DOUG: An X-Windows terminal actually requires very little memory, not the two megs that you quote. What an X-Windows terminal is, is simply the client end of X running remotely from the server. The applications, Unix, and all of the processing are done on a server chine, in this case a TT, and the X terminal only displays the results. It does not take much processing power, since all the terminal is doing is displaying graphics. It does, however, require 19.2K bps connection, or ethernet. Might I recommend that you read the july issue of Byte magazine? It has some good information on Unix X interfaces and the Client-Server paradigm used by X. (I think it was July) -Tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 124 Tue Jul 25, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:39 PDT Thanks for the info on the July BYTE magazine, I guess now I have a reason to renew our office subscription. About the baud rate or etherlink connect , has anybody seen any of those parallel to etherlink adapters that are out for the PC. Do you think that, with the right software, they might work on the ST. ( They are being sold as etherlink adapters for laptop PCs. ) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 125 Thu Jul 27, 1989 DOUG.W [ST*SYSOP] at 06:22 EDT Hmm, I'll have to look at that BYTE. I guess I'm just used to an X-Windows system which keeps separate bit-maps for each window and continues to update them even if they are partially obscured by other windows, or even while they are being dragged around the screen. There's also a bunch of processing that must occur on the terminal if you do it right, such as mouse handling, bit-blitting, high-speed line and text graphics routines, etc. Yes, you could do without much of this, but then what's the point? --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 126 Fri Jul 28, 1989 T.ONDERS [Tim Onders] at 20:02 EDT Don't see why the RS-232 to Ethernet adapters could not be used with an ST, but I would think the highest allowable throughput would be 19.2K. Admitedly, an X terminal must do a bunch of graphics computing, but an ST could handle that, especially without doing the applications processing. -Tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 127 Sat Jul 29, 1989 S.NOAH at 01:12 PDT I found the article on the parallel to ethernet adapter, it was in InfoWeek ( April 17,89 ). The adapter is made by a company called Xircom, but is a little bit pricey for the ST market ( $695 ). The Network access speed is said to be 500 kbps on an AT class machine. The adapter comes in three configurations, one for thin ( BNC ) Ethernet, one for Thick Ethernet ( with an external tranceiver ), and one for twisted pair connection. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 128 Sat Jul 29, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 13:17 MDT *********************************************************** I saw in my current issue of STart, that the next issue (only a few days away) will have an interview with Sam himself, and he will discuss the Stacy and the TT! Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 129 Sat Jul 29, 1989 C.DAYMON at 16:09 EDT Boy! That will be a nice article. Now if the post office will get around to delivering my August issue of STart, I can waite the month for the September. (While the Sept. issue sits on the news stands.) -CWD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 130 Sat Jul 29, 1989 SANDY.W [SysOp] at 17:38 EDT Not to mention the lead times on articles.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 131 Sun Jul 30, 1989 M.LOADER1 [Mike Loader] at 09:07 PDT If Atari is hypothetically choosing between Motif and Open Look for its hypo- thetical TT, then here's one vote for Open Look. - Mike - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 132 Sun Jul 30, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:55 EDT Atari may very well be able to swing a good deal with AT&T over Open-Look due to the way things are heading toward Motif. AT&T may be very willing to help out with a machine that will place their interface in front of more people than a standard workstation would. Sun might not go for it though. Particularily if it starts to look like another Mac II to contend with. -CWD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 133 Sun Jul 30, 1989 GRIBNIF at 23:09 EDT The Atari Parallel port and a true IBM parallel port are very different. The Xircom adapter will not work on the ST's more limited parallel port. (Same reason why many of the PC-Link adaptors that use the parallel port to link laptops to a desktop computer wont work with PC-Ditto) Rick ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 134 Mon Jul 31, 1989 S.NOAH at 00:24 PDT Oh ! Never mind. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 135 Tue Aug 01, 1989 K.BAD [S/W Engine] at 23:51 EDT AT&T wants a LOT LOT LOT of money for Open Look. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 136 Wed Aug 02, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:16 EDT i thought I saw something in Unix Today! that said they had recently changed that attitude. Since the majority seems to be favoring Motif, I think they have had to rethink it. This is a VERY recent change. (Besides, those little push-pins look interesting.) -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 137 Tue Aug 29, 1989 SLP at 07:55 EDT In the latest issue of Computer Shopper, I noticed an Ethernet adapter for the Mac that was a SCSI device. It could be part of a SCSI chain and was $495. Probably could be used with the ST without much trouble. Now where was that address: Compatible Systems Co. P.O. Drawer 17220 Boulder, CO 80308 (800) 356-0283 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 138 Wed Aug 30, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 23:48 MDT There has been some talk on comp.sys.atari.st on USENET from Germany about the new 68030 TT which was announced on the 25th. There are two sides that I have seen. One is that the TT will be on par with the Mac IIx (the 16MHz Macintosh) and the other is that because of bad hardware design the TT will be VERY slow compared to other 68030 machines. It does seem that Atari is using a modified VME buss, which uses only 24 address bit and only 16 data bits. This has been confirmed by a guy in Germany who saw a demo TT. Also, the TT will use a propretiary color monitor,so your NEC Multisync monitor won't run on the TT. The release date was NOT announced, though it is expected that the TT will be available by Christmas in Germany. No news of the TT in the States though. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 139 Thu Aug 31, 1989 DANSCOTT at 18:10 EDT <SIGH> No comment..... <GRIN> Dan/Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 140 Thu Aug 31, 1989 S.NOAH at 21:47 PDT When can we expect to see an official Atari press release on the TT & STe ? There are quite a few discrepancies in the various descriptions I've read, this is especialy true of the STe. One question that continues to bother me is .. Are the new graphics modes on the STe and the TT the same ? I've read to many conflicting reports to be sure of anything. Even the conference from last night didn't resolve all of the discrepant reports. Please, could somebody at Atari post the Specs on these machines before the rumours become more widespread than the reality. Thanks, Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 141 Fri Sep 01, 1989 TOWNS at 01:10 EDT I am not sure when I can get a press release online. As for your question on video modes. Yes, they are the same. the STE modes are a subset of the available TT modes. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 142 Fri Sep 01, 1989 K.BAD at 02:12 EDT What John said about press releases. Until then, I've been given leave to talk about TT "a bit" (whatever that means ;-) so I'll do my best to quell any misinformation without getting myself in trouble with my boss (Leonard has a tendency to get, um, upset sometimes ;-). All the discussion in the world on Usenet is not going to mean a whole lot until the people involved have actually _used_ TT's and have read the hardware specs. The TT's hardware design is not going to make it slow WRT other 68030 machines - in fact there are some features of the TT which will make it much faster than an "ST with a 68030." Even so, as far as compatibility is concerned, the TT _is_ an "ST with a 68030," and a lot more enhancements. If you're interested, I might be able to provide a few more specifics on the hardware speed issues; for now, let's just say that some of the postings on the nets have ranged from slightly erroneous to outright absurd. The VME bus on the TT is not "modified" in any way - it is a standard "Eurocard" format. Using the smaller cards in the first version of TT (the one shown in Dusseldorf, called "TT030/2" for now) has a big advantage in terms of cost reduction. We could have wangled the "full sized" VME cards into a TT case, but it would have made it considerably bigger, with considerably more complex hardware, and MUCH more expen$ive. Atari delivers Power without the Price, remember?! TT does not use a proprietary color monitor - any standard monitor capable of displaying VGA graphics will be usable, with the proper adjustments for screen aspect ratio. Currently in Sunnyvale, I have seen five or six different kinds of monitors hooked up to TT's, including NEC MultiSync monitors. One other unfortunate bit of misinformation was put out at the Dusseldorf show, and that is relative TT speed. In the original press release we sent to Germany to be translated for the flyers handed out at the show, we stated that the features of TT make for four times the memory bandwidth of the ST. That means, _raw memory access_ in "dual purpose" RAM (that shared by video and processor) is four times the speed of ST. HOWEVER, there is also an option for "fast" nibble-mode RAM which is _not_ shared by video, and other hardware factors make actual program execution speed as much as TEN TIMES as fast as on ST. Your mileage may vary. ttfn... (*ken @ atari*) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 143 Tue Aug 29, 1989 M.VEDERMAN2 (Forwarded) More text from USEnet. Please remember, I am posting this as I captured it from USEnet. I have not seen the TT, nor do I have any opinions regarding the TT (although it does sound nice, I doubt it'll make it to the US market!) OK, OK, so I do have some opinions! This retort to the previous posting sounds pretty good. I especially like that it is TOS/GEM compatible!! kBAD: USEnet *is* good, in that we lowly peons in the United States (who apparently get neglected by Atari Corp.) can at least find out how Atari treats the 'preferred' crowd overseas!!! ----------- BEGIN USEnet posting from SOMEONE ELSE ---------------------- Article 18025 (3 more) in comp.sys.atari.st: From: atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) Subject: Re: Duesseldorf: personal impression of the TT(T) Message-ID: <1572@laura.UUCP> Date: 26 Aug 89 18:57:08 GMT References: <8908251936.AA19454@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Reply-To: atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) Organization: Universitaet Dortmund Lines: 92 OK, don't believe everything you see or hear :-) :-0 I've been demoing the TT today and (prob.) tomorrow with Smalltalk80. So please let me correct some mistakes and official :-) romours. In article <8908251936.AA19454@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> V61@DHDURZ1.BITNET (Ronald L amprecht) writes: >-68030, 16MHz >- VME slot (A24,D16) >shared RAM for video and processor with an access time of 250ns >- tiny ugly box with the old ST keyboard with it's famous function keys >Price: appr. DM 5700 -- including 30MB Harddisk and color monitor >(They said it wouldn't be sold without the Harddisk or the color monitor -- > no chance for a cheap upgrade) Wrong. What you saw was the 'complete' low-cost version. Certainly there will be packages without harddrive. However the monitor is somewhat special (close to VGA but not close enough) so good ones like NEC multisync will work but result in a bad picture with thick borders around. It RUNS the old ST harddisks so you can get it cheaper than 6500DM incl.VAT None at Atari is willing to give final statements about that though. Leonard Tramiel said to me: 'Germain sales will determine the packages (in Germany)'. So I'll stay optimistic. >Seeing this I called it a TTT --- namely a Tic Tac Toe machine: You will never >loose something with respect to the old ST, but you have no chance to win >a jackpot with it. Ouch, Amiga owner? >Actually I would call it a wastage of highly sophisticated microprocessors >the way an 68030 is slowed down to 2MHz Busfrequency. A (A24,D16) VME slot >that would have been something useful for the ST, but an 68030 should be >worth an full 32bit VME slot ! A speedupfactor of 4 that's a shame and I'm >quite sure the TT will be the slowest 68030 machine that will ever exist. >I wouldn't call the TTT a workstation -- and I won't buy it. Tstststs, turn your mind on before you talk! 1. The processor runs at 2MHz with VME bus only but at full 16Mhz else. 2. The speed factor is 3times(my minimal guess) < 4times < 5times (Leonard). So do some calculations.... Smalltalk80 for instance runs at 40% Dorado on the ST. It runs at 116% Dorado on the MacII (CX) with the same software! So if the TT is 4 times faster than the ST it will run at 160% Dorado and thats a bringer. I estimate this machine as equivalent to the Max II (CX). 3. The TT uses this so called 'Slow Ram' for the lower 2meg only. The real memory expansion (who uses a workstation with 2meg anyway?) takes place at 16meg++ addresses and is called "Fast Ram". This uses full and sophisticated caching with 4*64bit burst filling. The application can decide (loader flag) where the binaries should lie and where Malloc() calls should take place. So my impressions (I AM NOT PAID BY ATARI, BUT I LIKE TO TAKE ONE :-) It has a *UGLY* design (at least). It is as fast as a MacII (at least) It is *VERY* TOS compatible. Well, I'd say the Software is not TOS compatible. Calamus for instance runs and about 90% of professional software too. Expect problems with alot of games. It has nice color graphics (forgot howmany, but *ALOT*) and a nice high resolution monochrome mode (16??@6??). It is the cheapest workstation of that power around (about 1/2 the price of comparable competitors here in Germany). Besides: - the drive will be 1.44 meg although they show 720 right now - the keyboard will be better. It's just a mega keyboard on the fair. - the monitors will be better. They took VGA monitors for the fair. It will be in the shops sometimes between Christmas and early spring. Nobody dared to name an exact date though :-) If you'll find to take a ride to Duesseldorf you'll enjoy the fair. There are alot of nice presentations. Andreas Toenne atoenne@unido.uucp Disclaimer: I speak for myself only and not for Atari or my boss. I may have misunderstood some things and perhaps some of the 'facts' are wrong or will change. But the machine is real and not bad either. ------------- END USEnet POSTING --------------------- Sounds good? Will this ever see it to market in the US? If it sees its way to the US market will it die from lack of ATARI Corp. support? Will anyone in the US be able to make a living supporting the TT????? - mike vederman ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 144 Wed Aug 30, 1989 WBLAIR (Forwarded) Mike, Many thanks for that USEnet post. Great to here something positive about TT for a change. Now if I could just get more info on the STE. Guess I'll have to get in on the conference with SamTramiel tonight. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 145 Thu Aug 31, 1989 RHELZ (Forwarded) I missed the conference with Sam Tramiel...busy with school. Is it now availible for downloading? Could someone give me a file number? Thank you kindly in advance. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 146 Thu Aug 31, 1989 HS (Forwarded) I think there's both a non-ARCd and an ARCd version. If I remember right, one was 11996 and the other was 11997. Perhaps one of the STOps could post the numbers on the door... (I think that Jeff mentioned the numbers in Cat 14.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 147 Fri Sep 01, 1989 DAVESMALL (Forwarded) Dot -- thanks for doing the translation -- and apologies for the all the typos I'm sure you corrected for me. (I can just see the original translation of what I typed in before correction, given the usual 1 typo per line rate I manage... "Introducing the Atari TT Selective Fire Assault Weapon". Oh, well. ) -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 148 Fri Sep 01, 1989 JEFF.W (Forwarded) Holly pegged the file numbers for the transcripts exactly: Un-ARC'ed: File #11996 ARC'ed: File #11997 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 149 Fri Sep 01, 1989 M.VEDERMAN2 (Forwarded) Here is some more text from USEnet, this time straight from a reliable source, Allan Pratt! This is a LONG one! --------------- BEGIN ALLAN PRATT'S USEnet POST--------------- Article 18181 (21 more) in comp.sys.atari.st: From: apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) Subject: Re: Duesseldorf: personal impression of the TT(T) Message-ID: <1670@atari.UUCP> Date: 31 Aug 89 01:19:58 GMT References: <8908251936.AA19454@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> <1572@laura.UUCP> <123947@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> Organization: Atari Corp., Sunnyvale CA Lines: 97 cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: >Hmmm, the whole graphics capability question is really foggy so far. Here's some really straight scoop about the TT from inside Atari: The video palette has *4* bits per gun for color values. That is, you have a total of 4096 colors: 16 levels each of red, green, and blue. (The ST has a palette of 512 colors: 8 levels for each gun.) Another "color" mode provides 256 levels of grey (actually green), for really fine reproduction of a black-and-white image. This is independent of the resolution: if you're in a 16-color mode, you can pick any 16 levels from the spectrum of 256. (We call this hyper-monochrome: one color, but a lot of it!) There are *6* video modes: the three ST modes (totally compatible), plus 640x480 16-color, plus 320x480 *256* color, plus 1280x960 monochrome. ALL of these modes except the last can be shown on a single monitor. That monitor need not be multisync. It can be a slightly modified VGA monitor, or (of course) the monitor which Atari will sell for the TT. The last mode needs a Viking monitor or something similar. ST high rez (640 x 400 x 2 colors) is not limited to black and white: you can choose any two colors. >Does this mean it has a "DMA" port like the 520/1040/MegaX ? Does it have >a "real" SCSI port as well? What kind of through put can be expected from >the hard disk interfaces? Can it do DMA and access > 4Meg ? Yes, there is a DMA port like on the ST and Mega. Your hard disk will plug right in. You can connect a bootable SH204 and it will boot! There is also an external SCSI port. The SCSI port can access the full 32-bit address space; the ACSI port is limited to 24-bit addresses. The internal hard drive is connected to the SCSI bus. >Is the >VME slot the _only_ way to expand it, or does it have a Mega compatible >expansion connector as well? There are a number of ways to expand the TT: you can add 2MB of dual-purpose (video and CPU) RAM, or 10MB when 4Mbit chips are available. You can add 4MB of REALLY FAST 32-bit nybble-mode RAM (not video-capable), and there's the VME bus. The number 2MHz that's been bandied about needs some explanation: The CPU and memory clock speed is 16MHz. There are four clocks in a bus cycle. For dual-purpose RAM, around half the bus cycles go to the video or refresh. Therefore, the CPU gets around two million MEMORY ACCESSES per second, or 2MHz. There are other architectural details which make it a little faster than that. And remember, each access gets you 32 bits, not 16 as on the ST. Also, since the CPU is allocated half the bus cycles, it isn't ALWAYS postponed by video or refresh: it might try to access the bus just as its turn comes up, and not wait at all. Therefore dual-purpose memory accesses run at MORE THAN 2MHz. "Fast" RAM does not have video taking up any of the cycles, so you don't have to wait for that. It takes 4 or 5 clocks (I think) to set up a fast-RAM access, but "nybble mode" means that the CPU fills its cache in "burst mode" at one cycle per subsequent access. The VME logic introduces one wait state, so a VMEbus access takes 5 clocks. (Your mileage may vary: VME cards vary widely in response time.) But, again, you won't be held off the bus by video. VME in the TT shown in Germany is A24/D16 (24 bits of addess, 16 bits of data). >[programs can load in fast RAM or dual-purpose RAM] By a "loader option" the original poster means "load program off disk" not "load .o files into a .prg file." This is correct: there are flags in the PRG header which control the behavior of Pexec and Malloc. Most program can run in fast RAM -- programs which change the screen base pointer and some other things can't, though. >[RAM on the VME bus] You *can* put memory on the VME bus. The performance penalty is not bad. TOS will recognize that memory and use it for programs if you set it up right. >Does it have a Blitter ? No need for one. The reason for the Blitter is to remove instruction- fetch overhead from memory operations, and with the 68030 on-chip cache, the TT does just fine without it. >>It is the cheapest workstation of that power around (about 1/2 the price >>of comparable competitors here in Germany). You can say that again. Please, people, remember that when you compare the TT with a Next machine, for instance, you're talking about roughly 4x the price! JT's motto is Power Without the Price, and we think we're giving you just that. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt End of article 18181 (of 18203)--what next? [npq] ------------------ END OF POST -------------------- Sounds good? I like it. Now the only question is: HOW MUCH WILL IT COST WHEN IT MAKES IT TO THE US? - mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 150 Fri Sep 01, 1989 SANDY.W (Forwarded) Looks like Atari is starting to discuss the TT in it's topic in Category 14 Topic 35. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 151 Fri Sep 01, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] (Forwarded) Mike: Thank you for the post. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 152 Fri Sep 01, 1989 TOWNS (Forwarded) Yes, Mike thank you for the post. Darlah can we forward Allan's message to the TT topic in CAT 14? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 153 Sat Sep 02, 1989 PHOTO.3 at 17:47 EDT How about to a file in the library? It's a bit long for the BB, don't you think? (Wasn't there some talk about what are library files and what are messages? Seems to me that a Bulletin Board gives the impression that the messages are like short and sweet notes tacked up on a board...) Appreciate the info, however, Mike. --Jerry Finzi ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 154 Sat Sep 02, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 19:48 MDT TOWNS, I asked my local dealer if the Moniterm 19" monitor would be compatible with the TT, and he didn't know. The Moniterm monitor requires a Mega ST board, so that would indicate that it won't work on the TT. Could you clarify the situation with regards to the Moniter mon itor?? KEN, thanks for your excellent notes on the TT. It is nice to have someone from Atari rebut the rumors floating around about the TT. Good work!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 155 Sat Sep 02, 1989 D.ENGEL at 22:07 EDT I didn't mind the length of that message. I like long ones! However, I noticed that everyone has been so concerned with graphics power and cpu power of the TT, that nobody has questioned the sound of the thing. Is the sound of the TT going to make Amiga and Apple IIGS owners drool? Is the TT the birthplace of AMY? Please anyone fill us in on the sound chip in the TT! Getting back to the recent posts, can anyone explain what 'nybble mode' and 'burst mode' and all of that fast ram techno-jargon means. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about microprocessors, but I have never herad oops. never HEARD of those terms. Are they an Atari specific term, or a 68030 term? Also, what special features of the 68030 are being utilized in the TT? Can the TT support virtual memory? Also, it was mentioned earlier that the EST had a new shifter which had more hardware capabilities like fine scrolling... please, please, let this feature be in the TT shifter... I can live without GENLOCK but put fine scrolling in the TT shifter. While on the subject of the EST... how does the EST handle existing software sound calls to the AY-3-8910? Is it still there? By the way, what are the chances that the only major differences between my ST and an EST as far as graphics are concerned is a new MMU and a new shifter? Anyone care to wager? The new sound chip could be taked on anywhere in the upper RAM addresses, and the new controllers would be read by a new keyboard processor. How about that for a low cost upgrade? New MMU, Shifter, keyboard circuitboard, and a sound chip daughterboard! okay. enough already. I hope this starts some conversation going. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 156 Sat Sep 02, 1989 DOUG.W at 23:12 EDT The new sound chip is a bit trickier to add. It isn't mapped directly to memory addresses. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 157 Sun Sep 03, 1989 D.ENGEL at 08:48 EDT If what you say is true, then it lends credibility to the idea that the EST is merely an ST with a few add-ons included. If the sound chip isn't memory mapped, then it must be I/O mapped in some way. I seem to recall there were unused I/O port bits somewhere in there... if so, it would be even simpler to add than if it were memory mapped. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 158 Sun Sep 03, 1989 GORDON at 09:47 EDT Actually I thought the TT looked really nice.. It does not look like a mega in any way, shape or form.. Try to picture this a flat box the size of a large cookie sheet about 1 in tall. then they put a mega on the left side and a disk drive on the left side pored plastic over the top.. there is a deep indentation betweent the mega and disk drive.. It looks nice. I heard some people say it was hard to put a monitor on it because of the deep indentation.. but I did not try it... It did look nice though.. I liked its looks anyway.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 159 Sun Sep 03, 1989 MRAYMOND at 10:55 CDT On the other hand, if the two "bumps" are the same height, you could stadlle the with a monitor and use the hole to stuf your important papers (ie Genie uploads you will do next, pens, pencils, crayons, etc) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 160 Sun Sep 03, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 11:43 MDT Will the TT's TOS be multitasking?? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 161 Sun Sep 03, 1989 C.DAYMON at 15:36 EDT The TT will come with TOS 1.4 which is NOT multitasking. You can, as an option, buy Unix for (possibly not all configurations) the TT if you want multitasking. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 162 Sun Sep 03, 1989 D.A.BRUMLEVE at 22:04 CDT To check out more of Gordon Monnier's opinions on the TT, the Duesseldorf show, the European Atari market, etc., check out Cat 9, Top 5, Message 66 and Cat 10, Top 3, Message 20 over in the MichTron RT. To get there, type m490;1 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 163 Mon Sep 04, 1989 DAVESMALL at 00:25 EDT Dot, thank you for the pointer! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 164 Mon Sep 04, 1989 K.BAD [s/w engine] at 06:17 EDT Mike: Thanks for forwarding the Usenet posts. However, could you please lose the headers when you re-post 'em here? Pretty please? (I keep headers turned OFF when I'm reading netnews - I use brief prompts here on GEnie, I'd rather not wade through ten lines of header in an embedded message ;-) And as far as TT documentation is concerned, I have asked my boss if I could post the _original_ of the flyer that Dave typed in and Dot translated, but I still get a nebulous "unh" as a reply, and I don't want to get in trouble. I've taken significant heat for some of my user-friendly posts in the recent past, so I don't want to overdo it right now. Please also see my message in the topic Dave recently starteed in this category (cat 14, topic 8, message 2). TT sound is 8 bit stereo PCM, same as STE. Basically, this is 8 bit digitized sound, but the sound processor runs independantly of the main processor, so you can do sound and use the main processor for other things. Kinda like a "sound coprocessor." Leonard likes the term "Digital Tape Player," because it can function like that, too. You can't plug DAT's or CD'sC righ:t into\ your FTT, buLt you Acan plSay digHitized\ sound* easil.y. * Allan has an affinity for techweenie terminology (so do I, at times! ;-). "Nybble mode" RAM is not shared with the video but is available directly to the CPU all the time, so access to it is much faster than the "dual-purpose" RAM that you're used to in your ST. "Burst mode" is a 68030 cache fill mode, it gets data off the bus REALLY FAST. As for specific 68030 support, you'll just have to wait and see what we have in store for you! The first TOS version that will ship on TT will probably not multitask - we're shooting for the highest degree of ST compatibility that we can attain. That's why TT TOS is _like_ Rainbow TOS (it isn't exactly Rainbow TOS though!). Software that doesn't work on a 68030, though, won't work under TT TOS. ttfn... (*ken @ atari*) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 165 Mon Sep 04, 1989 D.A.BRUMLEVE at 10:38 CDT Thanks for asking the boss, Ken. <sigh> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 166 Mon Sep 04, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 12:57 MDT Did you all know that even the Mac IIx doesn't support multitasking?? It would be nice to see Atari beat Apple to the market with a multitasking computer though. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 167 Mon Sep 04, 1989 NHARRIS [Neil] at 17:19 EDT I have a Mac II on my desk at work. Running multifinder, it multitasks just fine. Amazing to see, really -- different programs run in different windows, with the desktop visible in the background. If I click on a window, that program becomes the "foreground" one, and its menus appear on the top of the screen. I can start a download, then switch to other applications. Background printing is automatic if you want it. Slick stuff. Not perfect, but nice. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 168 Mon Sep 04, 1989 NEVIN-S at 20:10 EDT I have to agree. I to see a Multifinder clone on the ST or TT. --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 169 Mon Sep 04, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 23:10 MDT I don't want to be negative but....The TT is much slower than the NeXT (16 MHZ versus 25MHz) and it doesn't come close to Mac II resolution (256 colors from a palette of 4096 as opposed to 256 colors from 16.8million and boards are being relesed for the Mac that let you run all 16.8million colors at once (supposedly)). I for one am dissapointed-it has what I w would have expected the STE would have and the STE falls far short of what I expected for itC. Yes: the T\T pricFe/poweLr is vAery goSod andH it is\ a nic*e look.ing c*omputer (I am interestead in maybe getting one) but it just can't compete with the NeXT. Sorry to be so pesimistic-maybe you could convince me otherwise-I really would like to believe it would kill the NeXT, but my Atari loyalty is not THAT blind. Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 170 Tue Sep 05, 1989 DOUG.W at 01:36 EDT There is already a very nice MultiFinder work-alike on the ST. It's called JUGGLER. If only programmers would follow the rules, this could be a VERY VERY useable system. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 171 Tue Sep 05, 1989 TOWNS at 01:52 EDT I can't understand people.. who mentioned the NeXT machine? I certainly didn't! Sure.. a 25 MHz 68030 versus a 16 MHz 6803, the 25 MHz is going to be much faster. Big surprise there. But you are missing the point. The TT certainly won't cost 10 grand to buy. It will be MUCH cheaper. I think the ideal comparision for the TT would probably be an Macintosh SE/30 or a Macintosh IIcx. But a NeXT machine? It's in a COMPLETELY different price range than the TT. The NeXT machine is designed for people who have lots of spare cash, the TT is designed for the masses. It's designed for people who want the power of a 68030 and UNIX and who have a LIMITED budget. -- john ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 172 Tue Sep 05, 1989 PSINC at 12:02 EDT John, even a Mac IIcx is 8K. Probably would be best to compare it to the Amiga 2500. Thought I would help.;-) Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 173 Tue Sep 05, 1989 NHARRIS [Neil] at 12:14 EDT Juggler is not the same as multifinder. Juggler is more like the old Switcher, which is no longer being used. Right? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 174 Tue Sep 05, 1989 DOUG.W at 12:42 EDT Neil, I'm specifically referring to Juggler *I*, not II. Juggler I allows for multiple programs to be loaded simultaneously, and if they are proper GEM applications, all the windows will be onscreen simultaniously, and you can change applications by simply clicking on a window that is "owned" by that application. When you do that, that window comes to the foreground and that Application's menu bar will become the active one. Juggler I does dynamic memory allocation, rather than partitioning, so you don't have to set memory partition sizes. Also, if the applications call the AES as they should, background processes *can* continue to run. This is VERY MUCH like MultiFinder. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 175 Tue Sep 05, 1989 NEVIN-S at 15:07 EDT It is not like multifinder in that it slows down the system incredibly. Multifinder does not do this, not nearly as much. That is why Juggler I was so poorly received. You could have WPerfect and LDW Power up and running, and each was slower then molasses in January. Even when the not-in-use program was doing nothing (that is, even if WP was just sitting in the background, NOT doing a search/replace). Juggler I was so slow he had to come out with Juggler II or folks would have demanded their money back. If Juggler I had been fast, it would have been a big hit. --Nevin (P.S. I use Juggler II when I need a switcher on the ST). ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 176 Tue Sep 05, 1989 K.BAD [s/w engine] at 17:39 EDT Mark, Mac IIcx around 8k? TT will be significantly cheaper than that. I don't know where people keep getting the idea that TT is gonna be expensive. POWER WITHOUT THE PRICE. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 177 Tue Sep 05, 1989 C.DAYMON at 20:01 EDT I strongly agree with John, I'm quite sick of hearing people downing the TT because it doesn't measure up to the NeXT machine. More like the NeXT doesn't measure up to the ATW. (For that matter, neither does a Sun workstation.) I think the TT will do very well going head to head with the Mac II's and Mac SE/30. I don't know what the TT will cost, but I suspect it may start below $2500. (I hope, I want to buy one. Hopefully, even lower.) I wish the chip was faster and there was a 1024x768 color mode, but it still sounds like a very exciting machine. I think some people should be very carful when comparing the TT with Mac II stats and remember NOT to specify specs of 3rd party graphics boards. The TT has a VERY well established STANDARD bus that will permit the use of a great many existing hadrware add-ons that the majority of the PC market is just not familiar with because they are usually on workstations. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 178 Tue Sep 05, 1989 M.VEDERMAN2 at 19:24 CDT Nevin-s Actually (from what I know about the Mac) programs have to make a specific call to get the correct time slicing with MultiFinder, which most of the old applications don't support. Juggler II came out because Juggler I was not very compatible, *not* because it was slow (Tim and I have discussed Juggler at length). It is really a fine program that may get some resurrection on the TT (if I can talk Tim into doing an update on it). So what will the TT price be around in the US anyway? The reports from Germany indicated $5700 DM, and if I can remember the currency exchange from the last time we got deutsch mark donations, I think they are about 53 cents to the dollar. which would translate to 3K, but of course this is before the FCC costs get tacked on, and of course other 'American' price increase tariffs, etc. - mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 179 Tue Sep 05, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 19:09 MDT Does the Mac IIx have memory management?? Because if it doesn't then how can it have real multitasking?? W/O a MMU you run the risk of any singlle task crashing the whole system. But, a multitasking TT, with multiple windows running TOS and capable of exchanging data between them would be great!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 180 Tue Sep 05, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 19:11 MDT Does anyone know if the Moniterm 19" monitor will work on the TT?? It would be nice if someone who spent $2,000 on it for the Mega ST4 could use the Moniterm on the TT. Wouldn't be a waste of bucks then. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 181 Tue Sep 05, 1989 GORDON at 21:57 EDT The dm to the $$ is 1.9 to 1 that makes a 5700DM computer around $2900. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 182 Tue Sep 05, 1989 GORDON at 21:59 EDT The biggest reason for Juggler II was the fact that most programs did not use GEM properly. And, for that reason would not run under Juggler I. These are the same programs that will not run on the TT or the STE in MAX resolution. - s ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 183 Tue Sep 05, 1989 NEVIN-S at 23:16 EDT I guess everyone has their own opinion. I did a thorough review of Juggler I and even with programs that worked, I found the speed decrease unbearable. That is just my opinion of course... --Nevin Now back to the TT topic... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 184 Wed Sep 06, 1989 D.ANDERSON22 [FastTech Rep] at 00:18 EDT Actually, Gordon, at 1.9 to 1, a 5700dm machine comes out to EXACTLY $3000. -Dave ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 185 Wed Sep 06, 1989 SYNERGIST at 00:27 EDT Amazing! All this fuzz and bother over what is still a vapor machine:-) Wait until it hits your dealer shelves. Then get upset over what you on't like. You could be giving yourself fits over a machine Atari never delivers to the U.S.A. . . <<Jim>> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 186 Wed Sep 06, 1989 J.H.CARROLL at 01:51 EDT Yup, I'm one for waiting until the TT debuts before questioning its power and price. If Atari the TT ships with all that's promised (including a version that runs UNIX - seems someone mentioned that the UNIX version would ship 6 months after the basic one would) then I can't see the problem with a 68030 machine with a price tag of $3000. I mean come on guys, if you WANT multifinder and the 16.8 million colours, then run out and buy a MAC IIx. Does anyone believe for a minute that ATARI is making industry-record margins on its hardware? Jon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 187 Wed Sep 06, 1989 ICDINC at 10:39 EDT Nevin, Don't forget that the Germans pay a 14% National Sales Tax and that is usually included in the "quoted" retail price. (But not always) - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 188 Wed Sep 06, 1989 GORDON at 14:58 EDT I have posted an article that was in a English newspaper in the MichTron RT. The columnist was in Germany for the official introduction of the STE and TT and makes some very interesting comments about them and Atari. Its file #1413 in the MichTron RT.. Page 490 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 189 Wed Sep 06, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:53 PDT I know that this is several months off, but I just got my guide in the mail yesterday. Will the TT be at Comdex thais November ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 190 Wed Sep 06, 1989 CYCLONE at 23:06 CDT When uploading text from Usenet or other sources, you may want to be aware that if you separate it from your message text with a line of dashes GSCAN will not show the rest of the message (it thinks the next message has begun). Therefore, perhaps a new delimiter would be in order - may I suggest a line of pound signs? "################" - Bill ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 191 Wed Sep 06, 1989 S.NOAH at 21:55 PDT Gordon, the article in the MichTron RT was very interesting, but from what the Atari people around here have been saying the section covering the STe isn't totaly accurate. The article states that the STe will be able to show 512 colors from a palette of 4,096, while the Atari spokespeople here have made it pretty clear that the video modes only have a larger palette, not more displayable colors. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 192 Thu Sep 07, 1989 TOWNS at 01:13 EDT Maybe they are talking about the use of Spectrum 512. Which by the way, still works on STE just fine. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 193 Thu Sep 07, 1989 PSINC [M. Sloatman] at 11:46 EDT Maybe, but that's pretty misleading unless they mention the use of Spectrum 512. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 194 Thu Sep 07, 1989 ISD at 23:27 EDT Ahmmmm...s'cuse me! ... thanks... :-) Today I saw the brochure that Atari Gmbh handed out at the Dusseldorf fair about the TT. Please tell me that the very ugly machine on the front *isn't* what the TT 030/2 will look like...please... !!!! Julius O. @ Large @ ISD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 195 Thu Sep 07, 1989 V.ALBINO at 21:00 PDT I am a big supporter of Atari. I love my ST. I have been waiting, like many others, for the debut of the new TT machine. Also, like many others, I have a lot of questions about what the new machine will or will not have. However, all of these questions pale in comparison to one, overriding question that I wish someone would answer. Why did Atari introduce TWO new machine with many of the same features at the same time? The 68030 TT is a logical upgrade with more speed, power, resolution, etc. It would have been easy for people to move to that machine from the ST. But with two machines, there is, in my opinion, inadequate differentiation in the proposed market. Some people will go to the STE, which I believe is a waste of Atari's resouces, while others go to the TT. What is a software developer supposed to write for, the STE, or the TT? Both? Have we divided and conquered ourselves? If developers aim for the lowest common denominator, i.e. the program that will run on the most machines, that means that the STE will have software that will not take advantage of the additional power of the TT. Will someone please try to make some sense of this situation for me. It appears that the marketing stategy here evades my understanding. Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 196 Fri Sep 08, 1989 TOWNS at 02:51 EDT The TT is downward compatible with ST and STE computers. Any software that is written correctly for ST should work on the TT. As for the STE, please keep in mind that the STE will replace the ST in Atari's line of computer products. I personally don't think that we are splitting the market. The machines are aimed at two distinctly different markets. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 197 Fri Sep 08, 1989 ICDINC at 07:23 EDT Julius, That is what they were showing at Dusseldorf. I think Sam and Leonard probably did get the message from the Germans that it was ugly. In my own private survey... about 100 said ugly... 1 said nice. The 1 was Gordon from Michtron. Hopefully Atari had not started tooling for it. (The cases were prototype variety foam molded.) If it does come out in that case, maybe we will have to sell an 'upgrade' case for the TT. ;-) - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 198 Fri Sep 08, 1989 PSINC [M. Sloatman] at 11:56 EDT So, Gordon was the only one, eh<grin>. John, do you have any idea on how long before Atari stops manufacture on the 1040/Mega line? How long before the STE takes their place? Thanks, Mark P.S. - Any answer yet on the STE developer info? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 199 Fri Sep 08, 1989 GORDON at 14:01 EDT Towns in reference to your message 196 are you saying that if a game is written for the ST it will run on the TT but if it is written for the STE it will not run on the TT? In other words the STE is not compatible with the TT and ST in the higher graphic modes. (naturally its not with the ST for get that) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 200 Fri Sep 08, 1989 D.MCNAMEE [Dan2@Atari] at 14:17 EDT Julius, What's wrong with it?? I think it looks neat! Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 201 Fri Sep 08, 1989 TOWNS at 17:07 EDT Gordon, Let me spell this out, to avoid the confusion... The TT is downward compatible with the STE, ST, and MEGA computers. Any software that is written for machines listed above will work on the TT. Assuming that it is written properly and designed with the 68030 in mind. The STE is downward compatible with the ST and MEGA computers. Any software that is written for machines listed above will work on the STE (this means the ST and MEGA machines). ...As for the case, well.. I think its interesting. I have heard a number of comments from people who didn't like it or weren't impressed. I think Tom is right.. I think Sam and Leonard got that message as well. As for STE production vs. MEGA production.. I don't know. I don't have anything to do with the manufacturing side of the business. STE Developers Documentation: Making progress.. give me alittle bit more time. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 202 Fri Sep 08, 1989 ISD at 19:40 EDT What's wrong with it? Well, it ain't pretty thats for sure. It looks like someone slapped a Mega and small SH204 on plastic base and decided to call it a TT. One of the things the TT will need to enjoy success is appearance. What I saw did not look very professional or business like - it looked more like a toy computer instead of a 32 bit 16 Mhz near-workstation class machine that it is. Have a gander at the Sun SPARCstation, or the newer COMPAQ styling (now *those* looks sharp!). It needs to look sexy, sharp, and "I mean business!". Just the opinion of a humble programmer... :-) Julius O. @ Large @ ISD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 203 Fri Sep 08, 1989 M.MCCANN2 at 20:06 EDT I have a question regarding TT and/or the STE - it was stated somewhere that the reason the STE has built in Genlock is a new Shifter chip (if I recall right). And that also gives the 4096 colors. Any way to retrofit that chip, or any of those other upgrades, to older STs? After all, latest 520/1040s can accept a Blitter chip while earlier ones would not w/o hacking the hardware. I am curious as to what is the hardware that permits this "hardware assisted fine scrolling" (is this the blitter?? or what?) and the 8 bit PCM audio (Amy??? [Nah]). Thanx for ANY info... [Or, in German, "Wie gehts???"] ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 204 Fri Sep 08, 1989 D.ENGEL at 20:20 EDT I left a message asking about the sound a few days ago. I also stated possible upgrade routes for ST/Mega owners. However, "Hardware Assisted fine scrolling" can only mean that the new shifter allows for the screen address to reside on any word boundary, and that provisions have been made for pixel offsets to be made. Combine these two features, and viola: fine scrolling! (This is only a guess, but it's as much as ANY programmer could hope for) How are the TT/030 developer docs coming???????? Also, what exactly is the definition of 'Genlock' in the EST? Is it like the 'stereo capable' TVs and VCRs of a few years back which advertised 'Stereo Capable' but neglected to mention you had to buy a separate decoder to use this 'feature'. When you say 'genlock' I want to be able to plug my VCR in one jack and my Monitor into another, and play the vcr to the monitor with computer graphics simultaneously. Any extra hardware needed would be misleading.... Fianlly, can the TT do the same 'Genlock'??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 205 Fri Sep 08, 1989 DOUG.W at 23:11 EDT The STE does *NOT* have a GENlock built-in. It was designed so that a low- cost GENlock could be added EXTERNALLY, with NO internal modifications. Your assumptions about scrolling are correct. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 206 Sat Sep 09, 1989 C.DAYMON at 00:32 EDT Personally, I've seen PLENTY of Sun workstations and I think the keyboard makes a Mega keyboard look EXTREMELY sexy. It may be functionally better, but it looks like it was cut from a block of stone! Not very stylish at all! I don't think the Sparc station looks all so great either. Basically like a Mega with a bunch of blemishes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 207 Sat Sep 09, 1989 DAVESMALL at 01:03 EDT The Mac machines with 68030 have an MMU -- inside the 030. The 020 machines can be fitted with an MMU; it's a prerequisite to installing A/UX. As for true multitasking without MMU, while it isn't Completely Perfect, heck, the Amiga seems to do pretty well. (Please, no religious wars..) I think the mix of UNIX and ST is going to be extremely interesting. Unleashing the power of the UNIX toolkit on ST developers should give them access to a world of tools they've never had, which integrate well, which will greatly speed development and debugging of ST applications. I've not seen anyone mention this yet, but it may one key selling point to the TT / Unix -- a sort of ultimate (for now) ST development engine. And mind you, I'm far from being called a UNIX devotee. But the shards of UNIX that have made it to the ST have usually been pretty popular. And do I ever need 16 mhz, preferably of no wait state ram, during assemblies. My opinion? I hope and wish Atari will bring a TT or TTWO to the WAACE show next month and "debut" them just for ST owners here. It would not be a major logistical problem -- like, two suitcases? -- can precede Calmdex without causing problems, and would give American owners a feeling of encouragement. Cheap when the price is the loan of two machines over one weekend. Tell you what, Atari ... I'm under nondisclosure and all that. I'll offer to personally pick up the costs of hand-carrying a TT from your offices, to the WAACE show, watch it like a hawk there, and get it back to you -- *no cost to you whatsoever* -- if you'll just hand me one Friday and expect it back Monday. -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets by Small ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 208 Sat Sep 09, 1989 S.NOAH at 00:45 PDT Interesting blurb on the back page of the "Info-worlquirer". They say that the TT will be the least expensive 68030 machine, of course they also have the price pegged at about $1,500 ( about half of what I've read here on Genie ). I wish that they were correct, but, like so much else they say, I don't beleive it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 209 Sat Sep 09, 1989 SLP at 07:49 EDT The $3000 price passed around here was for a complete system with hard drive, color monitor, and VAT. The $1500 price was just for the system unit with one floppy and keyboard. I bet the price will be higher, but if it comes in around $2,000 you'll here most of the complaining around here stop. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 210 Sat Sep 09, 1989 D.ENGEL at 08:49 EDT About the EST... I hope that someone makes it clear that Genlock is not built into the computer. The info going around now is somewhat unclear on that point, and I see ST users talking about the 'built-in' Genlock on some local BBSs. Just trying to nip a potentially dissappointing rumor in the bud. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 211 Sun Sep 10, 1989 DERRICK at 06:52 EDT Dave, keep dreaming. THose TTs are for the Germanys like everything else. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 213 Sun Sep 10, 1989 DERRICK at 06:57 EDT Dave, keep dreaming. Those TTs are for the GERMANS like everything else. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 214 Sun Sep 10, 1989 JEFF.W [RTC Sysop] at 13:55 EDT Atari has been making it VERY clear that there is no genlock in the STE. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 215 Sun Sep 10, 1989 TOWNS at 14:21 EDT Dave, Interesting concept.. I will pass along your message. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 216 Sun Sep 10, 1989 V.ALBINO at 12:09 PDT It was stated that the STE and TT are intended for two entirely different markets. I believe this same statement was made when the Mega ST's were first released. Yet, most people aspired to Mega ownership as a natural upgrade path. Now, there will be TWO different paths one can choose if he wishes to upgrade his ST system. He could go to a STE or a TT. If I were a developer, I would be interested in writing for the largest possible user base. It would seem, therefore, that people will write for the STE knowing that it may run on the TT, but who is going to write for the TT--using its special abilities--when that software will not function on the lower priced STE? I still believe that Atari has "split the market," and this bothers me. I still want to know why different versions of the TT are not being produced to take care of the STE buyers rather than bringing out yet another 16 bit computer based on the 68000. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 217 Mon Sep 11, 1989 J.H.CARROLL at 18:42 EDT It seems real simple to me... the *TT* is the upgrade path from the ST. I don't know about anyone else but fine scrolling, improved sound and quasi- Genlock hardware (hehehe my trademark term) just aren't enough to have me running out to sell my old ST. Quite simply, (as Towns said) the STE will replace the ST line... In other words the consumers buying an ST for the first time will buy an STE. REAL upgrade paths involve more speed, more power etc and the TT is the way to go. I really don't see any evidence of "market splitting". Jon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 218 Wed Sep 13, 1989 TOWNS at 00:30 EDT Finally.. a message I can agree with. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 219 Wed Sep 13, 1989 M.MURPHREE at 19:04 EDT An open letter to Atari: The introduction of the TT comes at a time when I have been considering an upgrade. As an engineer (EE), I need a system with superior speed and display capabilities, plus expansion capability (at the very minimum access to the system bus). I expect this computer to used for current work activities, hobby use, development use, and possible private business use later. I have owned Atari products since 1978, and of course are considering the Atari TT for a future purchase. There are few things that will effect my decision though: 1. Packaging, internal expansion capabilities. Let's face it guys the day of the console computer is gone. The Atari 400,800; C64, VIC20 etc. were cute at the time, but there is no excuse for it anymore. I wouldn't begin to pay the price a Mega commands with the cheap housing it is in. Likewise, if the stories about the TT case are true, forget it I will buy something else. 2. Expandibility. Current rumours have that there is only one expansion slot in the TT. This is barely acceptable, if the slot must be used for expansion of the memory (preventing any other additions then it is NOT acceptable. 3. Product support. If the TT does not have adequate product support for a machine of this caliber, then it will not survive against its many competitors. 4. Delivery schedules. If the TT doesn't make it to the market in a reasonable time frame (please, no more escapades like TOS 1.4), then another manufacturer's machine will be acquired. Atari still has some loyal customers around, but that loyalty has been stretched to the limits, guys... Still waiting... Mike Murphree ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 220 Wed Sep 13, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:11 PDT About the TT only having one expansion slot, somebody correct me if I am wrong, but can't you attach an expansion chasis to the VME bus ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 221 Wed Sep 13, 1989 CAPT.COOK at 23:56 EDT Mike - Seems to me, it's kinda late for that message now. Hope it all works out for you, though. -CC ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 222 Wed Sep 13, 1989 WHITESTR at 21:05 PDT The upgrading of the ST to the STE strikes me as a brilliant last minute marketing move. Kinda jabs *all* serious ST users into upgrading to a new machine, while still supporting third party developers such as the Genlock/4096 JRI man. Surely its obvious by now that the TT is *the* next wave in home computing power. The only thing that really seems to be getting into STers way from cognizing this is the perpetrated idea that the TT is not going to be *CHEAP*! Those who believe that no one is going to develop specifically for the TT are a bit behind the times, me thinks. Personally, I don't doubt for a second that solid, reasonably priced color boards will be out for the TT soon after its release. Furthermore, I do not think that S.Tramiel has any intention of dragging out US consumers in any way similiar to the 'old' ST days. Just call me psychic...(:) Dai Le'on--Whitestar Mageware ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 223 Thu Sep 14, 1989 JEFF.W [RTC Sysop] at 00:42 EDT Thanks to K.BAD, we now have the original English text of the TT flyers handed out at the Dusseldorf Atari Fair. It is THE_TT.TXT (file #12108) in Library 14. Thanks, Ken! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 224 Wed Sep 13, 1989 S.NOAH at 22:41 PDT I was just thinking ( it somtimes gets a bit dangerous when I do that ), since the TT is so much faster than the ST, could it support a screen postscript driver through GDOS. I remember that my early version of Touch-up came wit its own screen driver which which displayed a set of outline fonts. Does this sound like it might work ? Is GDOS on the TT the same as GDOS on the ST ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 225 Thu Sep 14, 1989 GW.MILLER at 09:02 EDT I had the chance to play with a TT a few months ago. At that time I was promised that Developers versions would be available in AUgust. (In my excitement over the raw speed of this beast, I did neglect to determine August of what year.) After the horrendous marketing strategy of the ST, I'll have to wait until the STE and TT's are really in stores available to the general public before I get excited. On the other hand, it's only 8 months 'til June when the STACY will be available in quantity. I heard a rumor that the Lynx will only be available in NYC and LA this Christmas, and my questions about the Portfolio have been greeted by wild laughter, On the other hand, the Sharp is looking better and better. BTW, I put my name on the list as a Portfolio developer several weeks ago, and still haven't heard a word from Atari. Guess I'll just be conservative on this one. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 226 Thu Sep 14, 1989 TOWNS at 17:20 EDT George, Who did you contact at Atari regarding becoming a developer for Portfolio? Where are these questions that have been greeted by wild laughter ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 227 Fri Sep 15, 1989 GW.MILLER at 09:09 EDT Contact Gail Johnson about Developer Info. SInce MichTron stuck loyally with the ST through the years, I thought we might experience some return from the Portfolio. Wild laughter? Every idea I come up with that depends on Atari delivering a product to the market in quantity. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 228 Fri Sep 15, 1989 M.VEDERMAN2 at 19:04 CDT I heard from a store in town (this is off subject...) that the portfolio was 'in the warehouse' and will be shipping to the 'top 25' retail store in the US. One in Houston included... - mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 230 Fri Sep 15, 1989 BSTONE at 22:10 EDT Is it true that only 25 dealers will get the portfolio??? I have heard a that Atari had only 200 dealers and that half of them were Midi dealers. Now that means that 75 dealers will not get any portfolios!! I know that if I was one of the 75 shorted I would no longer be an Atari dealer!! I wonder when Atari is going to learn that it needs its dealers a lot more then the dealers need them? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 231 Sat Sep 16, 1989 V.ALBINO at 10:06 PDT Does ANYONE know what the real shipping date of the TT is supposed to be? The only thing official that I've heard is..."before the end of the year." The Christmas season is almost here. Will the TT be able to take advantage of that time of the year when most of the computer systems are sold, or will it arrive too late? Just wondering. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 232 Sat Sep 16, 1989 TOWNS at 13:37 EDT No release date has been announced. When we are ready for release, we will post here. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 233 Sun Sep 17, 1989 S.NOAH at 00:34 PDT Just curious, everything that I've read about the TT states that it has 512K of ROM, what is going on in all that extra space ? Is this something that we should look forward to ? Can anyone say anything about this ? No ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 234 Sun Sep 17, 1989 M.MURPHREE at 04:12 EDT In Mr. Tramiel's CO, he mentioned that the TT would be released by the end of the year. He neglected to mention in what country. I did notice their was no Atari response to my earlier concerns and comments. I interpret this as another unofficial Atari "No Comment...". A side question, has anyone attempted to run the current version of pc ditto on the TT? With the speed of the 16 Mhz 68030, the emulator should be able to run at a reasonable speed, if compatibility has been maintained. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 235 Sun Sep 17, 1989 DAVESMALL at 15:30 EDT There's a lot of IFs there. Bill had to pull major magic to get the Ditto up to its current speed -- he approached the theoretical limit of what is *possible* -- and the 68000 and 68030 machines are different enough in places it could trip things up. Even common stuff like MOVE SR,blah in user mode now chokes. But knowing Bill, he's probably moved it to another 030 platform and checked it out. He's pretty sharp. Atari: Am I now allowed to ask specific TT questions, bearing in mind that I'm under nondisclosure, since it is now an announced product? Actually, Allan's USENET posts tell me a great deal. -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 236 Sun Sep 17, 1989 TOWNS at 19:47 EDT Sure, Dave.. ask away. If we can answer them, we will. Mike, what was your question? I don't remember missing one.. If so, ask again. Maybe I can answer it this time! :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 237 Sun Sep 17, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 22:46 EDT Hi folks Towns why hasn't Gadgets and Avantgarde been sent TT's? They have the two products that give the most attraction to NEW buyers and they also need the most lead time. It's only in Ataris best interests!!!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 238 Mon Sep 18, 1989 GW.MILLER at 09:27 EDT What about MichTron? We have the MOST products for the ST and have been here the longest. Of course, during a recent phone call to Atari I did have to explain that Yes, MichTron did produce software for the ST. Seems the person had never heard of us. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 239 Mon Sep 18, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 11:08 EDT Sorry Gordon, but you are an ST developer and since you already obey the rules on the ST your almost done before you start, it's the emulator guys, especially Bill with HW, that need the most lead time to get there stuff over. AND MAC AND IBM compatibility are I think the most important attributes of the ST in the eyes of NEW buyers!!! So it's in ALL our best interests to slip Dave and Bill a TT each!!!! BTW TEMPUSII is the cats meow!!!! Thanks for bringing it to us. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 240 Mon Sep 18, 1989 PSINC at 12:16 EDT I disagree Jim, people do not purchase a computer because it can emulate a PC (maybe a Mac, because of the price difference). While Spectre 128 and Pc Ditto are important products, we probably sell more Mouse Masters each month in the US than they do. People want a computer system to fill their needs with the existing software and hardware. Emulation is a nice extra. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 242 Mon Sep 18, 1989 GORDON at 20:35 EDT Jim did you buy your atari to get a PC or a Mac??? Nuff said... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 243 Mon Sep 18, 1989 D.ANDERSON22 [FastTech Rep] at 23:45 EDT The point is made, Jim. You're undoubtedly right in that HW guys like Bill and Dave, and even Mark (PS) and John Russell have the longest lead time, but it only makes sense to give some level of support to the guys like Gordon, and Nathan, and you, and Dan & Rick, and Liz & Kevin, and who-all else is out there busting their caps to support Atari, as well. Get the machines to the developers, to get the development started. -Dave ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 244 Mon Sep 18, 1989 TLMAY at 20:55 PDT Mark... "We probably sell more Mouse Masters each month in the US than they [Avant Garde and Gadgets] do." I didn't know Avant Garde and Gadgets by Small sold Mouse Masters! <grin> (Sorry, Mark, I couldn't help myself!) I have a solution: Send TT's to MichTron, Avant Garde, Gadgets by Small, Practical Solutions, CodeHead Software . . . and TERRY MAY! ...TERRY MAY! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 245 Mon Sep 18, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 23:57 EDT Gordon....to get a MAC. Actually not the way you think though since I bought my 1040 "BD-Before Dave" back in late 85'. I bought it because I wanted a 68000 system and couldn't afford $3000 for a MAC 128K. Gordon ther are 35 million PCs and 'bout 6 million Macs so I "THINK" people buy computers for PC and MAC applications don't you? What I said was a MAJOR selling point for the ST is that it provides Mac AND PC compatibility as well as some great SW and features of its own. Where else can you say that at ANY reasonable price. You can put a PC in your Mac, but PCDII will be faster than the Mac PC addons, and you can't by a Mac emulator for the PC anywhere! So IF you put on your dealer hat and face the facts that to be a Mac dealer it will cost you more up front than becoming an ST dealer, and the same goes for BRAND name PCs. And IF you sat back and thought about how much easier it will be selling STs if you can say with a straight face...It's Mac AND PC compatible...you might have a chance to make some money here. The ST can be a vehicle to bring BOTH Mac and PC compatibility to the personal computer user, as well as some nice stuff on its own. And it can do this at a very reasonable price! BUT, selling the ST without these things leads to it eventually shrinking to the level of a curiousity! I would rather throw in with full compatibility set since it has a better chance for long term success. It's not like this is an insult, the STs most unique feature is it's compatibility, and with PC speed addressed and Mac Clonehood just around the corner (TT is Appletalk ready!!!) it could be the BEST computer a person could buy!!!! So it is in Ataris best interest to get a TT to both Dave and Bill <period>. All the ST SW developers will have an easier time of it fixing incompatabilities so the earliest units should go to them!!!! And BTW Apple DOES NOT CHARGE it's most important developers for new CPUs, like when the MACII came out. Microsoft and others got free units, prototypes even, so they would have SW ready by the time the thing was announced let alone shipping. The "rest" of the developers got units after that and they paid for them. Hey, JRI got a TT before any of us knew one existed!!!! Now that's early. So Mark I (as always) think I'm right. Jim <one mans opinion> Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 246 Tue Sep 19, 1989 TOWNS at 00:24 EDT According to the information I have, JRI does not nor have they ever had a TT prototype machine. This is a false rumor. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 247 Tue Sep 19, 1989 DOUG.W at 07:37 EDT Even if Atari can't get machines to developers, some technical documentation would be a *BIG* help! This would give developers some time to work out solutions to any problems they might have (replacing timing loops, add support for additional graphics modes, support multiple serial ports, etc.) As it stands, the developers will be able to *start* work when the machine is released, which is *MUCH* too late! --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 248 Tue Sep 19, 1989 PSINC at 10:53 EDT Jim, i think you're letting your personal preferences get in the way of what you think _other_ people want. The machines should be made available to all developers. I could make a case for any developer specifically (including us). The fact is that emulator developers are not the _most_ important developers, I think Doug and Dave would agree on that (and Bill too). Besides, Atari will say it's PC and Mac compatible with third party solutions anyway.;-) Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 249 Tue Sep 19, 1989 GORDON at 11:11 EDT A quote from a magazine.. The fact is the Poquet seems to be the only small scale computer backed by a true software strategy. We get a stone sense that Poquets founders much more then other small scale hardware venders understand the key role that software plays in determining whether a new machine files or flops. For the moment Poquets software evangelism effort has focused on lining up a small but carefully chosen suite of app- lications Lotus, Word Perfect, XYright, ACT, agenda, ALphaworks and a few others. That legitimize the Poquet as a mobile desktop. Compare this to Atari.. To the best of my knowledge not one developer in the US has a portfolio.. Not one developer has even the specs or information sheet on the computer. Yet they are shipping the computer. I have not even been offered the oportunity to purchase one at any price. The TT.. who knows it is months away.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 250 Tue Sep 19, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 12:34 EDT Mark...you're right, what I meant is really history anyway. When Atari had only a few protos (you know..like last april) they should of place some at STRATEGIC developer locations. NOW they damn well should get'em to ALL developers, and at COST!!!! NOW!!! And where the hell is the INFO, like what's the system variable that tells the application of processor type? Is Big A going to wait until AFTER comdex to tell certain people? So I will drop the subject Mark...you win. John(Atari) I guess I was misinformed, BUT considering the ratio of my being misinformed to YOUR being misinformed I think you should believe what you hear on GEnie BEFORE you trust what is told to you from INSIDE the company! Maybe John Russell didn't get a unit early, BUT I DOUBT IT considering my source. And it does make sense since the genlock function is needed to give good demos of the TTs abilities, and Atari has exibited a lack of understanding as to HOW to do genlock right. You must learn how to seperate the wheat from the chaff. -Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 251 Tue Sep 19, 1989 NEVIN-S at 13:03 EDT Yes, it is amazing that the TT is not available to developers now if it is so close to shipping. Of course the logical deductino (oops, deduction) is that it is NOT close to shipping at all. Oh well... --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 252 Tue Sep 19, 1989 J.MEEHAN3 at 22:43 EDT ALLEN.. I did not buy my Mazda RX7 because it was compatible with a FORD, but it was nice to know that it used the same fuel. The ST is saleable on it own, but I agree that it is best to sell all it's best points. The salesman should know his customers. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 253 Wed Sep 20, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 00:36 EDT J.MEEHAN3...you're right, but I did buy my Corvette knowing that most reasonable upgrades to the engine, etc. would be retrofittable. Like the 89 Z51 brakes, and the roller lifters, and the aluminum heads, and the better alignment specs (kinda like TurboST in it's effect), etc, etc....thtas a stab at the STE. And it uses the same small block chevy engine thats been around for 30 years...it's\ compatible! the point is be compatible with what is important, and both PC and Mac stuff is important. I have talked to dealers that don't understand enough about Spectre so they don't carry it. They are missing an opportunity just like Atari does when not facilitating certain things in the world. Atari simply does not orchestrate marketing policies and advantages as well as they could. We all suffer for it. Right on Nevin -Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 254 Wed Sep 20, 1989 CYCLONE at 00:01 CDT Hey, here's a thought - perhaps what with Atari's newly-found ability to "keep a secret", perhaps ALL the developers already have TT's, but they are just pretending to be disgruntled so we'll all be totally surprised when the machine comes out with TONS of software!! - Bill (slightly optimistic this evening) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 255 Wed Sep 20, 1989 BREHBOCK at 01:15 CDT Yea, that's the ticket! All the developers _do_ have TT's! ...And they were all supplied by Atari for _free_! ...yea...And it's really a 25Mhz machine... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 256 Wed Sep 20, 1989 PSINC at 02:49 EDT Ok with me Jim, let's just pick on Towns<grin>. Seriously, if Atari wanted to support key developers (ourselves included) ;- ) They wouldn't have to spend much. There must only be a dozen or so. We bought a IIx at half off list, _before_ the stores had it. And we have info on System 7 _now_. Atari should really get it together! I think that JRI had a STE, not a TT, but same thing. We still don't have full specs on it. Mark PS - Cyclone, you're wrong. Atari PAID the developers to take TT's, that's why we've been so quiet!;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 257 Wed Sep 20, 1989 TLMAY at 01:39 PDT Mark... You've just described a good reason WHY Atari only has a dozen or so key developers. If they supported their developers better (not to mention their USER BASE), I guarantee you there'd be more than a dozen... ...Terry ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 258 Wed Sep 20, 1989 GORDON at 09:59 EDT Aw common.. Atari supports us.. We got Towns on GEnie what else could we want. :-) We called Atari yesterday and were told the developer information for the portfolio would be out "any day now" and that we could purchase one for $399 and they gave us the 800 phone number. I can get a Sharp WIzard for $199. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 259 Wed Sep 20, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 10:38 EDT Right on Mark, Iconfess I have a TT...... .....in my dreams! -Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 260 Wed Sep 20, 1989 PSINC at 10:58 EDT Really Jim? I thought you got the '040 machine.;-) And you're right Terry... Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 261 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 17:14 EDT Come on guys.........have you noticed how many messages John Townsend has replied to in this area??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 262 Wed Sep 20, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 17:42 EDT Hi Darlah, we are just looking for the REAL DOPE ont the TT, you know stuff thats important. The Atari dev area is about as informative on this subject as this is. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 263 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 19:02 EDT Hi there.....................;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 264 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DERRICK at 19:09 EDT All you guys that want a TT, MOVE TO GERMANY! ATARI, have you ever consider moving your headquarters to Germany? I mean since you guys are sending everything over there, you might as well. Also what happen to the advertisement for the Portfolio? It is shipping right? This year will be your make or break year! 3 pass by already and I've yet to see any real support. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 265 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 19:11 EDT They are advertising the Portfolio....... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 266 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DERRICK at 20:04 EDT DARLAH, they are advertising where, on the Atari Corp. billboard? see ya. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 267 Wed Sep 20, 1989 MRAYMOND at 22:22 CDT Wait - I came to the Atari is err... a 68030--- no, wait a 68050 - yea that's the ticket and the developers here are complaining... er well because they don't have information on the chip, and it compiles too fast for them to see the resultsnad a each machine is shipped - no a arrives hand delivered by Sam - uh no Morgan Fairchild... That's why their busy, yea. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 268 Wed Sep 20, 1989 CAPT.COOK at 23:42 EDT Derrick - Maybe the Atari Corp biiboard, but also the Wall Street Journal. (The cynicism in here is starting to choke me -- to the point I can't even spell) -CC Q: What's the world's most thankless job? A: Atari on-line representative. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 269 Wed Sep 20, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 23:46 EDT It's also a pretty demanding job...lots of questions, questions, questions... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 270 Fri Sep 22, 1989 M.MURPHREE at 00:47 EDT John, I believe its too late to resurrect the entirety of my original questions and concerns. The main focus of it was for Atari to please realize that consumers are very tired of the "toy" computers that have been produced in the past, that do not lend themselves to being expanded or used in a professional environment. The TT should break new ground for Atari and show the world that they can produce a professional system. For my own use, considering the speed the TT should have, it would be very desirable if through some software or hardware means it will be able to run PC software at least at the speed of a low end AT if possible. This will greatly increase the amount of software that can be run on the machine. Would have replied sooner but software development stops for no one.... Over 2 meg of source code and still not done! Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 271 Thu Sep 21, 1989 S.NOAH at 23:56 PDT What will be the configuration of the VME slot on the TT ? I know that it is only supposed to have one VME/DIN connector, but will it allow full height one connector cards to be added to the system ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 272 Fri Sep 22, 1989 D.ANDERSON22 [FastTech Rep] at 18:17 EDT From what's been bandied about here and there, it is my impression that the TT's slot is configured for "Eurocard" VMEs. -Dave ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 273 Sat Sep 23, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 00:50 EDT Yeah, but REAL eurocard is a 6U card meaning 2 96pin DIN connectors. Thats what is so puzzling, the second connector has the upper 16 data bits to form a 32 bit bus? Watch Atari invent a ASCI type VME bus!!!! That will need a VME host adapter card to somehow propietarize the bus. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 274 Sat Sep 23, 1989 BREHBOCK at 02:25 CDT John, are these bus answers on the don't talk-about-it list? I know it seems silly, but is there any chance of posting an .IMG file or two of the TT's that were over at the Dussledorf (sp?) show? I think it would make for a couple happy campers here and there. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 275 Sat Sep 23, 1989 MAS2743 at 14:04 CDT Gee - I haven't read this 230 messages in this topic yet! It sure sounds verrrry intereesting to read them tonight. ...but uh, oh, here is the bad news... Is it true that Atari President Sam Tramiel said that he hopes TT will clobber NeXT and Mac II computer? Well, here is the news I read about in the INFOWorld magazine April, 1989 (?). Title: Mac II Programs Run Faster on Non-Apple Workstation Author: Laurie Flynn Sixty-Eight Thousand Inc. (so-called 68000 Inc), released earlier this month a 68030-based workstation that the company says runs Mac software at several times the speed of a Macintosh II. The vendor inserts a Mac II motherboard into a floor-standing case, and then swaps in a 32-Mhz Motorola 68030 microprocessor. The company then accelerates the system's performance with the addition of the Pronto SCSI accelerator from Golden Triangle, a math coprocessor, and a high-speed RAM cache. The $15,000 machine includes 5 NuBus slots and comes with a licensed version of the Macintosh system software. The strategy of swapping a Mac motherboard into a non-Apple case is one already followed by Colby Systems, which markets a line of Mac-clone laptop computers. Jim Takatsuka, an Apple VAR account executive, said that while the business issues of such a strategy may be unresolved in the case of some companies, no legal problems exist. The base system includes the 68882 math coprocessor, RAM cache, Pronto accelerator, 4 megabytes of RAM, and a 180-megabyte hard disk. Options (look at that Atari!) includes a RISC microprocessor (Motorola 88000), a LISP engine (for Artificial Intelligence application), and a Digital Signal Processor (just like NeXT computer has), as well as an Ethernet card and high-capacity WORM drive. According to Sixty-Eight Thousand president Robert Meyer, most of his customers are interested in simply running their Mac II applications faster, rather than using the 68030-based workstation as a high-speed RISC or parallel processing engine. It is the matter of their choice. Sixty-Eight Thousand Inc. 26346 Carmel Rancho Lane Carmel, CA 93923; (408) 626- 1711 (tell them I sent you) Now, if you wish, will that KILL, SQUASH, FLAP, OVERTHROW, ZAP, etc the Atari new TT workstation? Remember, TT doesn't have most of the options as mentioned above except for the VME card(s). Of course, Im a bit worry about this kind of threat for Atari. I still like the TT price but TT lacks some of the performance or options. I don't know if it will be possible for TT to catch up with those kinds of bell-whistle. OR is it that Sixty-Eight Thousand Inc. trying to deny the TT's existence or trying to scare Atari? Towns, what do you think of it? Any comments? Your informative friend, Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 276 Sat Sep 23, 1989 BREHBOCK at 17:29 CDT Mike, there's no comparison between the two machines. You can buy an ATW for the prices you're throwing around. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 277 Sat Sep 23, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 21:10 MDT No you can't! As far as I know the ATW is at least a year away! Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 278 Sun Sep 24, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 00:03 EDT Don't forget the transputers in the ATW are geared toward image processing and other highly parrallelizable things, an accelerated ...33Mhz, 128K cache, etc...030 Mac II will kick the ATWs ass in ordinary desktop publishing activities, only in highly tuned graphics activities...like renderman...can the transputers shine. The ATW is nobody but Lucasfilms' desktop solution, that's why you see all the transputers being used for digital video graphics type applications...because the suck at the day to day activities of an ordinary office environment. ATWs exist but so what, big deal we need a killer TT. Anybody can have the equivalent of what 68000 Inc...boy is that conseeded...is doing by buying the $5000 33Mhz 030 accelerator with cache the daystar or siclone are selling for the Mac IIs. The equivalent can be built for the TT too. So a killer TT is only as far away as the TTs delivery date. When is that JOHN? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 279 Sun Sep 24, 1989 PSINC at 11:21 EDT Absolutely Jim. Transputers are _not_ suited for "regular" applications. In November Apple will release the 25 mhz IIci, and in Febuary the _50mhz_ one! But they have not been just increasing processing speed, the new models fully support multitasking and virtual memory. Also the prices are coming down, and they're putting video and Ethernet on the motherboard. Atari had better get with it! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 280 Sun Sep 24, 1989 M.LEDFORD at 16:15 EDT An Open Letter to Atari: This is being written just to get a load off my mind, but I hope in a way that will be taken as constructive. First, just to let you know that I am not a non-Atarian, I bought my first Atari ST (1040) back in '86, coming from a Radio Shack TRS 80. I now own a MegaST2 upgraded to 4 megs, which I use for publishing a couple different newsletters. I also own a DeskJet, Migraph hand scanner/Touch-Up, a mono and a color monitor. I am the secretary of our local Atari ST user group, and have been with this group since its inception. I find, along with many, many other loyal Atarians, that I struggle with a love/hate relationship with Atari. I don't think that many other companies that make other types of computers have as loyal a following (with the exception, I think, of Amiga owners) as you do. But it seems to me that you, out of ignorance or otherwise, end up giving us the cold shoulder. I am referring to the lack of support that I have seen, both here on this BBS, and with my local dealer. Now I know that you have said that this is going to change, and perhaps you are making a sincere effort in this direction. But I am brought back to reality when I read the on-line talk here in the support areas. What I am referring to specifically is the total lack of news regarding the new computers that were (so long in being) announced. Not only are there no updates on the new machines, there doesn't seem to be ANY information going out to any of the developers. You kept us in suspense for many months with your policy of not announcing anything before it was close to being shipped, then after bringing out the new STE and TT, you clamped the lid on the whole news outlet again! (Now I am in agreement with you on waiting for products to be close to shipping before making the announcements and whipping up the fanfare, but to deliberately throw cold water on the new spark of interest doesn't make sense to me.) I watched with interest when the Stacy was announced, knowing that this would be a knockout if gotten to the market. What with all those people out there who wanted a laptop Macintosh, this would have made the sales of that computer sweet indeed! But as of this point in time, there still is no Stacy. Now I have seen the advertisements for the laptop Macintosh, which will suck away sales from Stacy. I am very interested in the TT because of the advances that it will give to users, and the extreme competition it will bring to other computer lines. But I am afraid that there will not be any soon release of this machine. Too bad. It makes it hard to root for you. The ST/TT line of machines are so good when compared to all the others on the market, but the support for them just isn't there! Please!! Please!! Get some people that can get the information out, that can get machines into the hands of the developers, that can answer at least some of the questions that come up here in this area (or are at least allowed to answer). For myself, I am considering upgrading to the TT, but the total lack of information of how things are going is really depressing. Please cheer us all up with some crumbs from your table!! Sincerely, _|_ Mike | ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 281 Sun Sep 24, 1989 C.DAYMON at 17:05 EDT Aric, I DOUBT that your statement about ATW availability holds. Considering the TT has yet to be released and the ATW is shipping to all the appropriate places for a machine with an achitecture that is not well understood by most. The british magazines report that every ATW they can make is being sold to universities and developers. Usually configured to price in at about $40,000. (Extra Transputers and RAM.) These are the ideal places to send a new and innovative machine. Considering the advantage of an on-chip math coprocessor and RISC processing, I think even 1 20MHz transputer could give a 33MHz 68030 a pretty fair run for its money. Again, the 68030 is a well understood chip and top applications should appear almost immediately, but I think these will be pale in comparison to the applications for the ATW 2-3 years from now. (Reflect back on the CRAP that was available for the ST 3 years ago and the 68000 was rather well understood then.) In the defense of the TT, I think it would be key to remember that the Commodore 64 has outsold any other single computer to date. (Or at least until very recently.) It certainly wasn't because it could outrun all the competition, but probably because it offered the best dollar value. The Atari 8-bits could outperform it graphically and in processing speed. This is possibly rumor, but I read where Atari has adopted the multitasking system developed by Intelligent Music for future STs. I haven't seen this operating system or read anything about it, but if this is true, it will mean multitasking for the STs. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 282 Sun Sep 24, 1989 BREHBOCK at 16:36 CDT Mike Ledford: I LIKE YOUR LETTER!!! I think it just might be a good idea for EVERYONE to capture it, adjust or delete the equipment specifications to his/her needs and mail copies to Sam Tramiel, Jim Fisher, Leonard Tramiel, Antonio Salerno, and Sig Hartmann at : Atari Corporation 1196 Borregas Avenue Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Something has to happen soon! There are a lot of Users, Developers, Dealers, and maybe even employees that are very frustrated with the way things are currently being handled. I can't help but feel that Sam and friends have to really care deep down inside, but it must be getting badly misdirected somewhere along the line. Something has to give! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 283 Sun Sep 24, 1989 GORDON at 19:13 EDT Way to go Mike.. Only problem is that Jack and Sam dont read the messages on here. Why not mail it to them.. Atari Corp 1196 Borregas Ave Sunnyvale, Ca 94088 I think everyone should write and tell Atari what you think of their dealer and developer support. About all the new hardware we have seen in the past 3 years. Tell them what you think... I think Sam and Jack need to see an outpouring of opinions. Atari has never advertised in the US. All of their computers were sold because people like you and me told our friends to buy them. I think Atari is losing this. Would you recommend a friend to buy an ST??? or would you tell them to wait for an STE...or wait for a TT or buy something else??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 284 Sun Sep 24, 1989 J.H.CARROLL at 21:57 EDT Its unfortunate that the case history of the Commodore 64 keeps coming back to haunt us because that's probably some of the very essence of the trouble at Atari. Fact is palin and simple : the 64 did well years ago when people who bought computers did so with very different criteria in mind. Price today plays a very small part in many people's computer buying habits. They want a computer that will run the same kind or quality of pro programs that they're using at work. They want something that has a large software base for it with plenty of user support. People are smarter today. Even if a 68030 system is available, they're going to think twice if it doesn't have a suitable number of slots (and *1* slot isn't suitable) etc etc. Its about time we forgot about the 64. It wouldn't fare as well in today's market. As for the Apple Mac IIci, its shippiong now-- no need to wait till Nov. Jon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 285 Sun Sep 24, 1989 A.RICHARDSO7 [ATW MAN!] at 22:51 EDT I work for a company that's in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. Our situation reminds me of Atari's: Lots of good ideas and people, but REAL short on cash. That is the real problem with Atari, they need to work within their means to avoid failures. Hey, Topic Police! HELP{!!!!!!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 286 Sun Sep 24, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 23:06 EDT A.RICHARDSO7, Atari is a $400 million company and ain't in any financial difficulty. In fact what the market analysts wnat to know is where is Atari going...i.e. what new developments will continue to make Big A a good investment. Chapter 11 they ain't in. Craig, the transputer is a SERIAL processor, it doesn't have a 32bit wide data/address bus, it is designed for processing ...in parrallel with other TPs...serial data streams from sources like vidoe, if saddled with the need to do a lot of random access 2D processing like in DTP applications it couldn't keep up with an old grandmother let alone a 33Mhz 68030. You have swallowed the ATW line...the universities in question aren't writing letters they are doing image processing. The ATW and any other highly specialized computer is suited for few purposes. The 680X0 and 80XXXs of the world are for the general purpose random access type applications you use the ST for. I bet TOWNS will not answer any of these technical questions no matter how nicely he is asked, we need more in depth info ...so how does it feel to want. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 287 Mon Sep 25, 1989 ISD [Julius] at 01:03 EDT From futzing with early ATWs, and a prototype before that: A 20 Mhz 68030 cleans a 20 Mhz T800's clock on integer benchmarks. A 20 Mhz T800 cleans a 20 Mhz 68030/68882s or 20 Mhz 80386/80387s clock on floating point benchmarks. *If* you can get your program into the T800s on-board 4k RAM, then the integer benchmarks are comparable to a 20 Mhz 68030. Considerin that the T800 is a 'first' generation RISC chip and SPARC, MIPS, 88000, 80486, 68040 are 'third' generation RISC (or based on RISC-type implementation in case of the latter two), the T800 is an olde f*rt as far as RISC technology goes. It kills me when MIPS magazine benchmarks a prototype 25 Mhz 80486 system against a DEC MIPS based system running at 12.5 Mhz - and the DEC beats most of the '486 benchmarks! Those dudes at MIPS technology are doing good work... The ATW is a excellent machine if you want to do parallel, distributed type processing - the 'next' generation of computing. Current single processor architectures can only be pushed so fast, the next step is more than one processor working on the same, or different, thing. Those that learn parallel programming will be ready for the next wave...at least I think so! <grin> But then again, this is the wrong topic... :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 288 Mon Sep 25, 1989 DOUG.W at 05:25 EDT For more info on the TT, file #260 in the Gadgets RT is a compilation of USENET notes concerning the TT. The file unARCs to over 100K of _very interesting_ info! --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 289 Mon Sep 25, 1989 GORDON at 12:20 EDT Interesting tidbit in Computer Shopper... Mr Nagy says Sig Hartman is going to resign if the TT is not out this year... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 290 Mon Sep 25, 1989 NEVIN-S at 14:07 EDT Sig Hartman has already decided to resign, as almost everyone in the ST community knows. I don't think it has anything to do with the TT, though that would make an elegant excuse. The man has put in enough years and he is entitled to resign whenever he wants. --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 291 Mon Sep 25, 1989 TOWNS at 15:05 EDT I have printed out the message that Mike wrote and the responses to it. I will be passing those along to my boss, Antonio Salerno. I have been passing along messages from this area for the last couple of weeks and will continue to do so. As for your questions, I didn't see any technical questions. Does anyone have any? If I don't know the answer myself, I will try to find out what I can. -- John ------------ ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 1 Sat Jun 10, 1989 R.MOYER1 at 04:06 EDT Can anyone give me any definitive answers about the T Like what features,will it be a true multitasking machine like the Amiga as I've heard it rumored? I'm sincerely interested in this, and please, no Amiga/ST bashing please. Keep that to CAT 18.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 2 Sat Jun 10, 1989 TOWNS at 20:52 EDT Sorry.. The TT is still under development and we can not release specifications on the machine until it is announced formally. Once that happens, you can ask away! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 3 Sun Jun 11, 1989 R.MOYER1 at 08:15 EDT Oh, I was under the impression that it was pending release anytime now and that everyone else new about it except me.....;-) Oh well, go ahead and TPUrge this topic then if you wish, thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 4 Sun Jun 11, 1989 M.MCCANN2 at 11:59 EDT R.MOYER1: If you will check back issues of ST Report, you will find ALL sorts of speculation about the TT. As for MT, it is supposed to run Unix 5.3.1, I believe was the rumor; is that MT enough? And also (I presume) supposed to have TOS 1.4 in ROM, as I have heard it said it runs Dungeonmaster (blindingly fast, I presume). If it runs that, it would have to be extremely ST- compatible... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 5 Sun Jun 11, 1989 C.DAYMON at 20:09 EDT R.MOYER1, You also may look into the messages and articles discussing the ATW (previously know as the Abaq). There was an article in a past Byte issue. Parallel processing and blinding speed with VERY high-end graphics ability. It is currently shipping in europe. (1024x768 with 256 colors from a 16 million pallette, 1280x960 with 16 from the same pallette and two other resolutions including one where, I think, all 16 million colors can be used at once - given that many pixels.) It runs the Helios operating system which is supposed to be a very Unix-like operating system for parallel processing and comes with X-Windows. Don't hold me to the accuracy of this information cause several things have changed since the first article, but I think most of this is still true. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 6 Sun Jun 11, 1989 BREHBOCK at 22:30 CDT Quick vote everybody! I vote this topic be closed until the TT is formally announced. It will keep rumours down and let John stay on top of current topics (like the ATW :-) !) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 7 Sun Jun 11, 1989 G.E.M. at 23:10 PDT Nah, if you close it down someone will just open another one. I vote that it be left open, that way it all stays in one place. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 8 Mon Jun 12, 1989 GORDON at 19:58 EDT Rumers.... Rumers.... Rumers.... Rumers.... Rumers.... Rumers... TO Fuel the fires... The reason 1.4 is being delayed is to make sure it works on the TT!!! There for any software that runs under 1.4 on the Megas and STs will run on the TT. (not multitasking) But the TT is supposed to run UNIX.. Unix is multitasking.. TT is months away... I mean common Atari announced the Stacy in April with a June delivery date and now hope they will have it out in September if the TT is not announced yet it is MONTHS... But I think it will be worth waiting for... (THat is if we don't have to wait to long) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 9 Mon Jun 12, 1989 TOWNS at 22:19 EDT I am sorry to ask this.. but, what is the POINT of that last message Gordon? I am missing something? If so, please tell me. And let me clear things up.. TOS 1.4 is NOT being delayed for UNIX or Multi-Tasking capabilities. In fact, it is NOT being delayed at all.. We are working as fast as we can to get a release to dealers to upgrade the existing userbase. As soon as we have an OFFICAL release date on this product, we will pass it along. -- John Townsend Atari Corporation ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 10 Mon Jun 12, 1989 TLMAY [Terry May] at 19:29 PDT Gordon, You seem to imply that TOS 1.4 is still under development... Didn't John say that it's at the MANUFACTURING plant??? ;^) Darn things take awhile to burn, no? -=<Terry May>=- ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 11 Tue Jun 13, 1989 TOWNS at 02:14 EDT Yes, there is a significant lead time on these things.. We are working on improving this as we speak.. -- John Townsend ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 12 Tue Jun 13, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 12:52 EDT Burning ROMS do take about 2 months... Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 13 Tue Jun 13, 1989 C.DAYMON at 18:54 EDT I hate to say this now because TT development seems to be so far along, but it would really be great to see the TT come out with the Renderman interface routines in ROM. That would sure set the TT above the Mac IIx and give Atari a great "IN" to the graphics community. (This, of course, would be in addition to TOS 1.4 in ROM.) From the little I know of the Renderman interface, it seems that some of the routines could even share code with the TOS graphic routines. My understanding is that it is a software interface to provide portable function names to many high-end graphic routines. If Atari wanted to bypass licensing fees with Pixar, they could even provide the functions with different names and then 3rd party compiler developers could provide links to the functions with names that were Renderman compatible. Actually, I'm not really sure Pixar expects a licensing fee. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 14 Wed Jun 14, 1989 GRIBNIF at 00:38 EDT Craig, Write the routines into C libraries and sell them to developers. Rick ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 15 Wed Jun 14, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 18:27 MDT A friend of mine just got a Mac IIX (with a 68030) and a color monitor, and a 65 meg hardd rive for $4500!! He has me drooling, except that I still don't like Mac's OS and how they handle graphics(thru software in ROM no less!!!). So, I don't want no Mac IIX, I wannna TT!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 16 Thu Jun 15, 1989 TOWNS at 01:56 EDT $4500.00? I find that hard to believe. Sounds like he got an _extremely_ good price or something.. As for TT, wait and see... I think you will like it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 17 Thu Jun 15, 1989 S.JOHNSON10 at 02:34 EDT But will the TT still be available by September? Or is it more likely to be delayed until sometime next year?! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 18 Thu Jun 15, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 09:03 EDT He probably got the developer price. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 19 Thu Jun 15, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 22:18 MDT TOWNS: My Mac friend got the Mac iix, used, from a desperate ASU student. The student had just graduated and needed the bucks more then the computer. So, my Mac friend was just in the right place at the right time. Who knows, maybe the ASU student will buy an ST with his $$$ !!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 20 Sat Jun 17, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 23:14 MDT hmmm OK, there isn't much available info. on the TT, well is there a section around here to discuss the ATW? Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 21 Sun Jun 18, 1989 A.RICHARDSO7 [ATW MAN!] at 21:38 EDT I would welcome an ATW column with wide open arms! It was last reported shipping in Europe and lately going into the hands of US developers. If that info is correct, someone should be able to comment responsibly on its actual capabilities, characteristics, and quirks. Sysops: What do you think?? Andy Richardson ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 22 Tue Jun 20, 1989 T.ONDERS [Tim Onders] at 19:03 EDT Canadian developers have had ATW's for 4 months or so now =) -Tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 23 Tue Jun 20, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:26 PDT And what have they to say ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 24 Tue Jun 20, 1989 BREHBOCK at 23:38 CDT Ok, ok, as long as the topic's open... John, have you heard about somebody (big... Pheonix, QMS?) putting PostScript to raster conversion in a PostScript co-processor? Sounds like a shoe-in for display PostScript on the TT. Looks like the Stever (Jobs) may have missed the boat by 6 months. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 25 Wed Jun 21, 1989 QMI at 01:36 EDT With the new prices on the Sun 3/80, SPARCStation 1 and Sun 386i, I can't understand why Atari would continue with TT development. Even Apple is wondering what to do with a IIcx priced about the same as the Sun and the equaly-priced Sun runs about twice as fast as the Mac IIx's. If Atari can price a fully-equiped TT (80Meg HD, large monitor, 4M RAM with all ports) at $4000 retail (and a 40% dealer margin) they might be able to move them. They will need to pick up big name dealer support like Sun just did with ComputerLand. Just call me skeptical! I just saw the Sun 8-bit graphics co-processor card (~$2000) and there are no words to descibe it. It is a fraction of the cost of any board that attempts to do hi-speed 2D+ hardware hooked directly into an OS. The Mac has nothing close. It takes less than a screen retrace time to redraw a complete complex large-window drawing (in other words, you can't see it drawing!). Well, it does require 8Megs of RAM. But at about $15,000 complete system price, noone else comes close. Back to reality. (My mother told me never to stare at the 'Sun' to long). JD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 26 Wed Jun 21, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 10:08 EDT I agree with you there John, the workstation marketis in for a shakedown. Now if Atari had come out with it when I saw it two years ago... I'll bet that the TT doesn't cost less than $5000 either. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 27 Wed Jun 21, 1989 GORDON at 15:44 EDT John if Atari does not continue developing the TT what are they going to do? The Mega and ST design is going on 5 years old. IT is old techonolgy. They will not be able to sell it for much longer. When the ST was introduced the IBM was selling a 8088 cpu called the XT. Mac was still on the original 128K itty bitty expensive cpu. Now IBM is selling 80386's that fly (the 286 was also introduced in there someplace) Mac is selling a bigger and faster cpu. (lets see they had a Mac SE and A MAc II) even the Amiga has came out with a 68020 board and has shown (but not sold ) a 68030 board. Atari either comes out with a TT soon or they get out of the computer business! The world has passed them buy and left them. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 28 Thu Jun 22, 1989 QMI at 00:16 EDT Gordon: exactly right... either Atari has a killer 68030 machine now and at $4000 complete, they are out of the computer business. Based on past experiences, I don't think they have a chance. Even if the hardware is above average (Atari computers usually are solid on the technical design) the support and marketing will be lacking as usual. Mark: Anybody that stay in touch with the market trends has to be blind not to see the handwriting on the wall. Us little guys in the trenches seem to know more than Atari does... but I still have a firm desire to see them succeed. I've made a big investment over the last 4 years and would like to get something in return. The computer race is more than price/performance these days. The ones that are winning have a rare combination of marketing skills and are willing to make a long-term investment in all aspects of support: dealer, developer, user and specialty markets. IBM succeeds only in sheer size (I think they fail in most other areas). Apple seems to be committed in all the areas. Sun has the right combination and are extending that to the higher end microcomputer market. When I think about what Atari has succeded in doing, I rank them down around Coleco and XYZ no-name clone company. C'mon Atari, make a liar out of me! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 29 Thu Jun 22, 1989 WHITESTR at 18:15 PDT Hmmmm...I figured a year ago that Atari Higher-ups (read Mr. L and brothers) were finding themselves in the throws of a serious marketing dilemna...--> Do we break into the US market with a _really_ serious tool, our Transputer Workstation, or --> Do we 'downgrade' the workstation's tooling to a level which should fit into the advanced home business computer user slot? Problem was two fold. Number one, as made clear by public Atari Corp. statements (Sam T. and Neil H.), it has been evident to everyone who follows the industry closely that the American computer using public has been getting progressively more demanding with regards to power and high-end graphics. As a CD-ROM developer, for instance, it is clear that what people really expect in multi-media entertainment/education is TV quality graphics with synchonized sound...plus, of course, glich free interaction. I recall being told by the head of Atari's CD-ROM project at the time that what I would _really_ want to be developing for was their upcoming TT. However, even a 68030 chip can handle real time video processing only so well. And is that TT meant to be for the 'developer/professional' or for the passive consumer also? Perhaps the consumer just needs high res graphics and good sound and a *no-more-than-fast-enough* chip set to passively (more or less) play back applications. Such a current computer shouldn't have to cost over $2-3000 should it? Which brings us to the second half of this dilemna. If the TT is meant to be a 'consumer' machine, than we're talking _real_ serious 'Business is War' price cutting. What with the way we all knew even a year ago that the workstation market was getting very competitive, it seemed that breaking into the US jaded home computer mindset required graphic power (at least as good as the old TV) for a truly affordable price (read ...not $4-5000 which is what all the 'other' companies would be shooting for). If that is so, than perhaps the high-end developers and professionals should be catered to first (read ATW) 'cause without those developers pushing the envelope (who naturally want the most power and *long-term non-obsolescence*) there is no way there is going to be entertainment and consumer oriented projects developed which make use of the current capabilities of hardware like CD-ROM or CD-I and hi res color. So, now we see possible major boo-boo, which reads keep ATW out of US market so that it doesn't upstage the TT, but oh no, the TT now looks like it will shine dimly compared to the Sun and other rising stars, but since the high-end ATW is being kept somewhere in the stratosphere (read the European Elites) the TT must play ATW's role in the US with price and hype to match, but the developers/hackers/real-creative-people no longer will think the TT worth the money compared to its competitors and know damn well that it is going to be rapidly bypassed by RISC technology and truly capable graphic machines (again, needed for efficient animation and high res graphic and CD work...just listen to all the hassle the Mac II people have had trying to get their computers to gracefully do TV quality work.) Sooooo......thank goodness the ATW is finally being ADMITTED in the US marketplace, at least to a few developers and occasionally in public (such as the Canadian notice posted earlier)....and lets hope Atari recognizes just how ruthlessly the consumers and developers are beginning to play this field of information technology...few of us will put up with the short end of the stick for reasons of blind loyalty and hyped conviction. Dai Le'on (sorry about the rambling length....I'll stay off the soapbox for a while....(:) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 30 Fri Jun 23, 1989 GORDON at 10:18 EDT Lots of interesting points.. In your statement.. But how is Atari going to sell into the workstation market? They do not have the sales force, the service dept, or the mentality to do this. Atari likes to call up Kmart, Sears etc and sell 50,000 machines to them and not have people call them up and ask dumb questions. I takes a whole differnt outlook to sell $5000 computers then it does $300 portfollios or $150 hand held game machines.. Atari will do much better with the latter!! The way the company is set up now they will never be able to successfully sell a high priced computer! Think about this.. If Atari was a new company with no past reputation, no user base, the amount of advertising they had (none!) how many ST's do you think they would have sold? Not very many.. The game machines made the ST.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 31 Fri Jun 23, 1989 QMI at 23:31 EDT "Blue light special in isle 12 on Un*x boxes!"... I suppose Atari management must be smart enough to know that the TT needs a whole new way of doing business. I know they can design a good machine and have it made cheaply but after that I start to worry. For this machine, the game image and name recognition will be outweighed on the bad side... at the name recognition helped sell the ST and bring along 8- bit owners. The university crowd and the scientific community would rather see a new brand name with a great price. Atari should do what Panasonic did on stereo equipment around the early '70's... they had a problem being considered as a cheap transistor radio company... they used the Technics brand name in the US (National in other countries) and had a small "by Panasonic" under it. After they had some success marketing it, they took the Panasonic off altogether. Atari should start a new division (possibly team up with a well- known Un*x software house for support), create a new name (ACME computers would even be better!) and dispose of the Atari brand when ever PR makes sense to do so. John <the dime-store management consultant> DeMar ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 32 Sat Jun 24, 1989 TLMAY [Terry May] at 00:13 PDT John, I agree...a new name is necessary for the _general_ public to take the Atari computers seriously. Atari can't keep depending on former Atari users and their friends for support. Your analogy of Panasonic was a good one. -=<Terry May>=- ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 33 Sat Jun 24, 1989 WHITESTR at 09:21 PDT As to some marketing ideas concerning the ATW and TT, Gordon, here's what I would suggest... First, immediately drop any intentions to con the hacker/artist entrepreneur into committing to long-term education/entertainment development based solely on the TT as his/her primary workstation tool. Second, package the TT similarly to the ST, i.e. as a consumer product with the basic ports needed to plug in mail-order parts, with a generic graphical interface (*must* go beyond vanilla X-Windows), with 'neat-o' sound and VGA comparable monitor. In other words, give 'em just enough. (Certainly, Un!x was a smart move, as was TOS compatibility.) Next, let it be known that the TT is replacing the ST as the standard model in the Atari line. With that position comes the assurance that the TT will be gradually upgraded, that its marketing will be handled similiarly to the ST's except for a major change in advertising policy (i.e. same level of customer support, continued attempt to sell through upmarket dedicated stores <--grant it, limited progress here, but the TT would be considerably more attractive for the retailer) and that in return for buying Atari, the end-user gets generic power for a very affordable price. Simple enough, nothing too threatening to current corporate patterns... And while this public position is rapidly being consolidated, Atari needs a secret weapon, appropriated into the hands of a distinctly Atari circle, the interdisciplinary hacker. Now I know not everyone is going to agree with me here, but, from my observations, there exists a circle of ST users (along with Mac and Amiga) whose primary interests lie not in rudimentary (or obscure) computational techno-stuff nor in the drab complexities of 'business', but in the ARTS and HUMANITIES! So I suggest that US Atari puts together a somewhat European imported working group (likely stationed in Canada, actually) of inter- disciplinary ATW folk to explicitly offer developer/high-end user support for the sort of work which is portable and down-grade-able to the masses through VGA level personal computers, CD-ROM, and possibly CD-I machines or the entertainment specific players of the future. Characters such as Tim Oren come to mind. Is not this what NEXT and Jobs are attempting? Small is appropriate in this case...takes a sort of interest and intelligence and vision which goes a bit beyond just technical leadership (Sam T. spends time in Canada, yes?) Thus, to sum up...marketing of the TT is no problem if Atari doesn't try to make too much out of it. Marketing of the ATW must extend into multimedia (even IBM recently embraced multimedia _very_ strongly tho only from the long-term potential of DVI) and involve not only the sciences but the arts and humanities also (journalistic possibilites with these tools are enormous, if not obvious...I'm thinking here of the de-centralization of the film and TV and research industries.) This is likely only going to happen if US Atari and Overseas Atari can co-opt possibly through Canada Atari (hope Julius didn't quit because of policies which make this scenario totally unlikely.) Dai Le'on ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 34 Sat Jun 24, 1989 QMI at 12:43 EDT That SOUNDS all well and good but Atari builds for mass marketing and the low price prevents them from being too sophisticated with the support, etc. The 'cerebral' approach you're talking about might work for the ATW but that's not the critical machine for Atari to be profitable. The transputer could wake up some high-end users to the TT but the only way I see Atari making headway in the next year is to team up with a UN*X support company, and get the thing out soon! They will need a mainstreamed, consistent, continuous marketing/advertising effort and NOT depend on enthusiasts and word-of-mouth to sell the thing! John <what makes him such an authority?> DeMar ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 35 Sat Jun 24, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 14:22 EDT Sorry, but I really can't see them pulling it off. You can run a Amiga with a 68030 in it, and they have sold over 1,000,000 machines now. Apple now has the Mac IIcx (it's a beauty) and they will have a 33 mhz '030 machine out this year. Atari once said they would have a new machine out every 6 months. Apple has a new one out every four! And they are being taken seriously by the business and scientific community. Suns are getting cheaper too. I really can't see Atari breaking to the workstation market. Maybe two years ago... If they can come out with a _cheap_ 68030 St, then maybe. But I don't see them doing that. Problem is, the market's caught up with Atari. They have always known how to make inexpensive machines. But now the market has become much more complex and saturated. Other people know how to make cheap machines too (Apple is an example with the IIcx). And the rest have been forced into lowering their prices. The same thing happened with the consumer electronics field (radios and such). The first Walkman cost $200. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 36 Sat Jun 24, 1989 TOWNS at 19:42 EDT At the Fall Comdex in Las Vegas, Sam stated that we were shipping between 60,000 and 70,000 units worldwide per month (depending on the month) of ST/MEGA computers. We have been doing this for sometime. I think we have well over a 1,000,000 units out there. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 37 Sun Jun 25, 1989 QMI at 01:35 EDT John, He also stated that only 10% of the ST's were being shipped to the U.S. market... leaving 6000 to 7000 per month here. Knowing what has went on between Fall COmdex and now, I would say the numbers are far less than that today. With about 200 active dealers left, and buying 10 machines a month on average, I would say the number is more like 2000/month in the US! If I could login to your billing system on your VAX, I bet these numbers wouldn't be far off. Let's get moving! We know more ST's are being shipped outside the US, so where are they going? I talked with a manager at Atari UK who said they are selling mostly as a game machine (actually bundling games and advertising that fact!). Told me the market for applications is very slow. I wouldn't doubt that Germany is getting a good percentage of them but they only buy harware and blank disks! I have heard from several different sources that the dealers sell blanks, hand out copy programs, and let you have anything you want and copy iy right in the store! I know this is the TT topic but you brought it up. I'm only bringing out these pesimistic fact in order for someone to turn things around the other way. There is no room for error with the TT when competing with the likes of Apple and Sun! Apple can sell 50,000 Mac II's a month and they're a $6000 machine, not a $800 ST. John <whining again> DeMar PS: At the rate Atari was going when the ST first shipped, there should be a RISC-based lap-top machine with a holographic display buy now! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 38 Sun Jun 25, 1989 M.LOADER1 [Mike Loader] at 00:18 PDT Atari ads in Canada say that there are over 1.2 million ST's out there. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 39 Sun Jun 25, 1989 P.MCCULLOUGH at 14:10 EDT Is the $+4500 Unix TT intended for the home market? If so- it will fail- No home consumer will spend above $2000 for a home computer. (In fact, even a large screen TV in this price range is difficult to move!) I think the Unix TT is a silly idea- businesses just won won't buy Atari computers- period. I think a better alternative would be the cancellation of the Mega ST-2, and 520ST along with lower pricing on the 1040ST (Better if Atari makes it into a Mega ST1!) and on the Mega ST4 (Greater draw on DTP sales-). This would place the 1040/Mega ST1 in the 520ST niche, the Mega ST4 into the Mega ST2 niche (Albeit with a slightly higher price-) and allow the TT (w/o Unix) to fill the Mega ST4 slot (At around the current suggested pricing of the Mega ST4). As for the ATW- sell it to Universities w/o the Atari name on it- lets face it the name hurts. Look how Commodore marketed the Amiga without pushing their name until the computer had a committed market. (This may be a good idea for the TT, too. Or create a spin-off company for marketing these machines-) I believe D-RAM prices and other IC costs have fallen (and continue to fall) enough to justify a price decrease for these machines- and wasn't it Jack Tramiel who chastised IBM and Apple for high prices not too long ago? This looks for a fine opportunity to repeat history, and bring Atari back as a solid competitor. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 40 Sun Jun 25, 1989 TOWNS at 17:00 EDT John, Your numbers and figures are way off.. I will leave it at that. As for TT marketing.. no one has stated the market position of such a machine publicly. How can any expect me to comment on the intended market for such a machine. When TT is announced formally, then we can start to discuss the type of market it will compete in. Until that happens, this is all just guesswork. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 41 Sun Jun 25, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 16:42 MDT A few things here...first, the TT should be marketed exactly like the NeXT machine is being handled. They both sound like they would target similar markets. The ATW should be marketed as tose new Sun Sparcs stations. OK, easy right? :-) Atari needs to do more of what Apple did with the Mac and like what Jobbes (was that spelled right?) is doing with the NeXT. Have big press conferences with flashy demos and get the people interestead. The NeXT was a rather bland machine and I think that the TT would be a good competitor. As far as the ATW is concerned, we are getting more tricky. The ATW cannot be sold through the normal local dealers, It must be distributed by the big names such as Computerland as well as any local Atari dealers that want to carry it, but the normal Atari dealers don't get the right custommers. I also feel that the Atari 8-bit and games section should keep the Atari name, but the 16 and 32 bit computers should get a different one. Atari's main problem AGAIN is marketing. I have given many speeches about how bad it is and how they can improve it, but I don't feel like doing that now. All I can say is that the TT should be present to fight it out with tthe NeXT machine, but the ATW needs special attention, and to get out fast! Here is a possable marketing suggestion. The ATW should be offered in a "bundled" form. Unlike the STs where the person buys the computer and then the neccessary hardware and software, the ATW should come in different forms for the specific job it is to do. For example, if it were to be used as a CAD system (I think I read that someone was using it to design cars), sell it with the maximum graphics available, a large amount of ram the best math and 3-D coordinate coprocessors, and offer discounts, or at least reccomend certain software packages. The people who are going to buy the ATW are not going to be like the people who buy STs and can help themselves to whatever software they like, they don't want to shop, they just want to buy. They could really care less whether it was an IBM, or an Atari as long as the Atari could support certain starndards. They would be more inclined to buy an IBM because they have heard of it, but this type of people would buy an Atari if it made sense and was an easy purchase. In other words, they would not be willing to drive a long d distance to their nearest dealer, buy the computer, and then mail order software. They would want to make one purchase of computer/software, and only contact the dealer for support/help or to upgrade. Wow for not wanting to talk about marketing, I sure did. Thud--there, I fell of the soapbox, Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 42 Sun Jun 25, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 16:43 MDT .........oh by the way, I would like to see a ATW topic, I'm not much of a Unix person myself......... Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 43 Sun Jun 25, 1989 A.RICHARDSO7 [ATW MAN!] at 21:39 EDT My 2 cents: ATW all the way!! The ATW is Atari's best product. It is rumored to carry a reasonable price tag. All it needs is quality peripera oops peripherals and software. Marketing would be easy -- anyone who sees it will want to buy it if you show it properly! The ATW should be Atari's next bread and butter product..... Andy Richardson ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 44 Sun Jun 25, 1989 M.MCCANN2 at 21:52 EDT Hmm...Honda has Acura, and I think Nissan and Toyota are in process of goin same (upscale) route. Infiniti? et al. Cadillac? Lincoln? Is ATW the "Cadillac" of Ataris?? What's an ST, a Ford? A PC4, Chevy?? A 2600, a Yugo??? ;^) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 45 Mon Jun 26, 1989 TOWNS at 02:12 EDT Feel free to start a ATW topic if you would like.. I would like to see some discussions on the computer as well. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 46 Mon Jun 26, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 23:20 MDT TOWNS: A local TV station had a piece on the NeXT computers that the local university (Az State U ASU) got. anyway, it was amazing just how impressed they were with a machine that doesn't even have color!! Now, if only Atari could get the TT out and into the Universities like ASU, maybe we could finally get some respect for Atari computers!! So, what's the marketing plans for the TT?? Are you all going to push TTs to universities and colleges?? Is Atari going to try to line up some big shops like ComputerLand or BussinessLand to sell the TTs?? Because, as much as I like my local ST dealer, I just can't see him selling a $6K+ UNIX computer!!! Most of the ST dealers just have enough expertise to sell STs or maybe Amigas!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 47 Tue Jun 27, 1989 S.JOHNSON10 at 03:13 EDT It seems as if the TT won't be available for quite some time(early 1990, perhaps?)! Atari always seems to release new stuff long after everyone else hasreleased theirs! It looks as if the ATW is the only thing Atari has going for it, and that's not a home computer, at least for MOST homes it isn't! It also looks as if all Atari's DON'T SAY ANYTHING policy does is gets Atari users absolutely frustrated! I know Atari THINKS they know what they're doing, but do they REALLY? /s ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 48 Tue Jun 27, 1989 GORDON at 11:11 EDT I think QMI's numbers are more accurate then yours Towns.. 70,000 a month.. no way. Thats 840,000 a year. Atari is not selling that many ST's. Maybe ST's and 8 bits added together.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 49 Tue Jun 27, 1989 GORDON at 11:12 EDT ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 51 Tue Jun 27, 1989 GORDON at 12:15 EDT Yes, But by Atari announcing theirs early they get to set the price for everyone. <grin> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 52 Tue Jun 27, 1989 HS [Holly] at 15:26 EDT Oh, I'm sorry... but I do find it VERY amusing that all you guys outside are telling someone who actually works for the company what the company's sales figures are... *laugh* ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 53 Tue Jun 27, 1989 QMI at 18:32 EDT Towns, I will stick by my estimates because I have first-hand information to back it up. The fact that Atari doesn't brag about the numbers is proof itself. I think you will find any developer who is willing to admit it will tell you that sales are at an all-time low and would agree with my numbers. Disagreeing with us will not change the facts. I understand completely that Atari needs to put on a front to keep things from getting worse than they already are... and I agree with that in principal. But, I hear that Sig is complaining about the bad press and the pesimistic views in the Atari community and wants everyone to change their tone. That's almost insulting! It's past the point where people are willing to stand behind Atari with nothing happening. If Sig's request had followed a significant new release by Atari, I would have praised it highly and passed on the word to every disbeliever. Back to the topic at hand. I think this topic should continue (TT) regardless of the fact that Atari hasn't officially announced the product. The TT is too significant to wait until AFTER Atari announces to give them some feedback... now is the time to make the engineering and marketing changes necessary to make it a success. If Atari does not value the insight of developers and users who may know a few things Atari hasn't had the time or circumstance to learn about, just say so and we'll shut-up. Until then, I will assume that Towns is passing along the information, doing his best to quote the current company line (as he should) and some good will come out of it. Conclusions? 1) Everyone agrees that the 68030/TT and ATW need to be marketed under a new, non-Atari up-scale name. My example was the Panasonic/Technics success; I also like the example of Honda/Acura and other car companies with up-scale brand names. 2) The after-market support is critical to the success of a Unix machine or transputer; Atari needs a co- operative established software/support company to jump in head first with them from day one. I don't think they have the time to hire and train a support staff like they have done with the development staff. 3) The price point is not the significant factor for Atari to stand on. The current pricing from Sun, HP, DEC and others was not expected when the TT was first conceived. Time for a new game plan. 4) Do all the above soon! (before new factors come along.) John <hoping for the best> DeMar ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 54 Tue Jun 27, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 18:51 EDT I admit that Sigs comments offended me. Sorry Atari, I'm not going to be a cheerleader unless you give me something to cheer about. Us developers have put everything on the line for a very long time, and Atari shows us little concern. For example, Sig says don't be negative, yet I hear that the Dearborn show wasn't advertised as much as planned because Atari didn't put up the co-op money it promised. If that's true it sounds like the same old Atari to me. I hope you've seen a real change, Holly, and that your sales are good (considering the summer). I don't like what the distributors are telling me at all. They say Atari dealer sales are way down, and business is bad. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 55 Wed Jun 28, 1989 HS [Holly] at 00:24 EDT Maybe time to move this thread to 18... Mark, we probably aren't breaking any sales records so far this summer, but we're not dying on the vine either, which is good news, I guess. We're not a big store, so we can't afford too big of a slump. Our favorite distributor also said that it's slow, but that everything is slow... and it generally is slower in summer. We had already figured that part out fortunately. :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 56 Wed Jun 28, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 10:45 EDT That's good news Holly. Actually I checked into this months sales yesterday. It took extra effort, but this month was far better than last, was actually a pretty good month. Summertime is slower. It's the perfect opportunity for Atari to get it together. But if they wait until the fall it will be too late. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 57 Wed Jun 28, 1989 GORDON at 15:12 EDT You have to remember Towns is the guy who said the STacy would be on sale in the dealer near you on June 15th! At the WA show they did not even have a pre production model! (That was June 25th) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 58 Wed Jun 28, 1989 GORDON at 15:13 EDT Holly who do you think is closer to the truth, Towns or QMI??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 59 Wed Jun 28, 1989 HS [Holly] at 15:40 EDT Well, quite honestly, Gordon, in my eyes, QMI has very little creditability. I have a real problem trusting anything from a company that promises via Email and over the phone for 3 months to send you something as simple as literature so maybe you can sell their product for them, yet never does it. At least when Towns has told me he'd send me something, he's done it. But, the point that you missed is that it seems to me that John would certainly have access to more complete and more accurate information about sales figures than a company whose products failed to make headway in the ST market for whatever reason, like perhaps shipping a year late or so... Your mileage may vary, but that's what things look like from where I'm sitting. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 60 Wed Jun 28, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 18:08 EDT This does belong in 18 but I must say that sales figures are just speculation and perhaps Atari wants them to be that??? I give up trying to figure it out. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 61 Thu Jun 29, 1989 TOWNS at 02:26 EDT I refuse to get involved in this discussion any further. I stand behind what I have said here and have nothing to add to it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 62 Thu Jun 29, 1989 QMI at 13:05 EDT Holly, I assumed you received the information long ago. CSS and Triangle Elec carry DeskCart and ST-Talk Pro. This isn't the topic to discuss QMI's sales and future... we're trying to analyze the current state of affairs at Atari and where they will be going with the ST/TT. As one of the last Atari dealers in the U.S. (and a relatively new one), you have the right to feel defensive at whomever who can take a shot at. The sales figures I've estimated are based on the number of dealers left who are willing to carry Atari ST products (not just QMI products). So, as this topic says: What about the TT? Well, to make sure I wasn't off in left field with my ideas about marketing the TT, I passed the idea by a few people. One of them is a purchasing agent for a large university, a couple of them are senior engineers and managers for General Electric, and another is a partner in a consulting engineering firm. Given the estimated price and specification of an 'Atari Un*x workstation', I asked if they would consider purchasing one or recommending one. The answer was unanimously: no. Then, hypothestically, if the computer was marked with a new brand name and support could be found through normal channels (Un*x software houses, high-end resellers), they said either: sounds like it would be competitive; or we'll get one and compare it to HP's, Sun's and MacII's we have. It has to do mostly with making a comfortable, safe decision. Most people aren't willing to take a chance with their business, or their job or their reputation by recommending a name which is associated with games. If it's a home computer, people are either buying a dedicated game machine or a PC- compatible (again, the safe decision). There will always be a few people willing to shop for the best equipment purely by technical criteria... I don't think those people make a big enough crowd to market to for either the low end or high end. Some heavy (ie: expensive) marketing and advertising is needed to change the way people think. JD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 63 Fri Jun 30, 1989 HS [Holly] at 00:12 EDT I was asked who I believed more, and I answered given my experience with both companies. No "shots" were intended. As stated it was my view based on my experiences. (But as a side note, I don't see how you could have thought I received the material when my last message to you, after numerous others, stated that I was no longer interested in your products because I didn't feel that a company that could not even make literature available was going to be able to support their products.) In any respect, there is at least one new dealer in this area (Kokomo, to be exact), and another who is looking to set up shop. In addition, we've been in business over a year, so I hardly thinks that makes us one of the more recent. However, I agreed with whomever suggested the idea a while ago that the TT and the ATW (and possibly the entire computer line) would benefit from being marketed under a subdivision name. On the other hand, I have recently been talking to some of the folks at the university here, and there seems to be no small amount of interest in the new machines, even (and perhaps especially) right down to Stacy. The Portfolio has perhaps made people take a second glance towards Atari, and perhaps if Atari Corp can follow up with several successful releases in a row, credibility can once again be renewed. That issue was, I believe, heavy on the minds of many dealers I spoke to at WOA. The TT does indeed have some capabilities that might set it apart, and, hopefully, above other machines. Do I think it will happen? Yes, but unfortunately not in the way I wish it would. Deadlines being what they generally are in this business, I wouldn't plan on seeing the TT's release here until mid-1990. I'd like nothing more than to have Atari Corp make a liar out of me on it, but I'm not holding my breath. But I also think it will end up being released under the Atari label... which, if released on time, may or may not be a mistake. A bang-up job on the TT could mean renewed interest in the rest of the computer line. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 64 Fri Jun 30, 1989 S.NOAH at 00:03 PDT With all the talk about new machines going on, perhaps we should ask ourselves where all of these new machines are going to be built. This isn't a new question, but it is a timely one. As far as I know Atari is still operating only one producion facility, the plant in Taiwan. Will this facility be able to satisfy the production requirements entailed in developing all these new devices ( eg. ATW, TT, STacy, portable game machine, etc. ). ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 65 Fri Jun 30, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 11:48 EDT I wouldn't be surprised at all if Atari was selling 3-5K machines a month. I don't think it's much less (or else we have a large market share!) but I don't think it's much higher either. I do know that Atari's production was low last year, and that they increased early this year. I don't have any idea on if more machines are being shipped or warehoused though. I think naming the TT (or whatever) "Atari" would be the curse of death though. Maybe it would have worked if they did a better job on the ST. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 66 Fri Jun 30, 1989 HS [Holly] at 15:02 EDT Mark, I think you said it to me elsewhere when you noted that when the ST first came out, it looked as if it would be the next messiah. The machine was good, solid and at a great price. If Atari had run with it then, I don't think it would have been touchable. Unfortunately, I don't think the TT has the same technological quickstart that the ST had, so Atari really does have their work cut out for them. S.NOAH... the new game machine only carries the Atari name, I believe, and is not actually manufactured by Atari Corp. Hmmm... I wonder if Atari could farm out the manufacturing on the other equipment since they lack a US facility. Interesting point made. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 67 Fri Jun 30, 1989 GORDON at 15:03 EDT Last I heard the Portfolio and the P Game Machine are going to be made in Japan. (contracted out) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 68 Fri Jun 30, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:13 EDT I personally don't believe that having the Atari name on either the TT or the ATW will affect interest. They are both reported to be very powerful machines with features that set them apart from others. Look how many times articles appear about the Amiga being used in video production work. And it is obvious to everyone that it is a Commodore. I believe it is more the other way around, that the ATW and the TT will bring greater recognition and prominance to the Atari name. The real key for the ATW in particular is what kind of software will appear to exploit its capabilities. There just aren't that many top parallel programmers to go round. Although, I think most would jump at the chance to work with a low-cost (market relative) parallel machine such as the ATW. Hopefully, the TT won't be tied to a 16MHz 68030. I feel that would be a mistake. Something along the lines of a 25MHz version would be better to place it in the front running. Be nice to see both with built-in GENLOCK. Considering the displays, this is something many people would be interested in. As far as I know, the Atari market is still aimed at the Home/Personal market, primarily. This market requires greater flexibility and more features than the Professional/Business market coming right out of the box. After all, I don't think you'll see Sun putting MIDI ports on their workstations any time soon. It's about time we started to see systems that will remain on most if not all of the day, handling different aspects of household control (such as security) without keeping the owner from playing a game or writing a letter (or new song). I think the main point I babbling about is that you can't go to a university or business and say, "Do you think you'll buy one of Atari's new machines?" before the machines are out. If you had suggested to most of the engineers that are now using Mac II's that they use an Apple for some of the things the Mac II is being applied to before it was out, they probably would have laughed. (And I have a good feeling that the Atari machines will look pretty impressive next to the Mac II's, especially at half the price.) -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 69 Fri Jun 30, 1989 WHITESTR at 19:54 PDT John D., your 'on the street' interviews sound like they reflect actuality. However, I'm wondering just what price you suggested the TT will go for. Herein lies the crux of whether the TT will sell a 100,000 or 10,000 (at least initially.) As someone looking to be able to do sophisticated art work and visual processing, I know that built in ability to run TOS is quite meaningless to me. And the Atari name is a definite minus (guess I don't really expect corporate patterns to change with the TT...just isn't a serious _enough_ machine.) If I have to spend $4-5000 for a base unit with monitor, I will invest in a product which has a large base of third-party developers (talking hardware here as much as software...) Or, I'll intelligently look at how rapidly the market of Un!x stations is dropping into an attitude of _real_ power without the price and purchase for a little more an expandable RISC based system which isn't limited to a rather paltry 256 colors on screen at once. After all, if I can purchase an ATW from England this week for $8500 with quality monitor, then I'm likely going to be able to purchase one later this year, when (or if) the TT becomes available, for more like $6000 in the US. Why in the world, given the fact that the ATW has tremendously more potential than the TT, would I buy the lesser machine at only a 25-33% price differential? Furthermore, (I'm registered developer #549, and joined in over a year ago) there are hundreds of developers working on ATW products _now_....Tim King (main partner of Perihelion Software and author of Helios) visited us last year and from his accounts, the software being successfully worked on for the ATW is 'beyond awesome'. Now all of this changes radically if the TT is brought in with a nifty but resolution-limited monitor (kinda like the ST, eh?) for *under* $2500. In fact, if Atari markets the base unit without hd or monitor for $1995...well, heh, I think these things will really take. Figure in a little discounting and I think alot of ST people will be looking to upgrade. Sell it to that slice of the education market which is being forced to look at price as a prime consideration and I think the *Atari* name will soon be seen as a positive once more (:) Dai p.s. I think that pushing for a 'name change' on either the TT ("you mean the upgrade to the Atari ST?") or the Atari Transputer Workstation (now selling in countries where that is a quite respectable name) is barking up the wrong tree. Power Without the Price, is, from my view, the WHOLE ISSUE. p.s.s.John, thought I'd mention that my partners and I have been using ST-Talk since it came out (and Pro, of course). We never touch any other telecomm app.! Hope you do as nice of work on the next machines... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 70 Sat Jul 01, 1989 P.MCCULLOUGH at 01:28 EDT Atari's name could be on it- fine print on back of unit. Also, make the box easily accessable (open arch.) and upgradeable- the biggest short-comings of the ST/Mega line. John- didn't mean to offend by suggesting TT marketing, I just think its time to "retire" some ST models (520ST, Mega 2- my CPU- no favoritism here!) and to move the others into different niches. As things stand, the proposed (Truly speculated-) prices of the TT will conflict on the small Mega ST4 market. I do think that Atari's DTP package is brilliant- but no one but Atari dealers and users know it exists. And the TT will boot :-) the Mega ST4 out of DTP if just for its speed increase. One thing that I have come to realize is that Atari isn't the only computer manufacturer climbing the MAC/IBM mountain- Commodore is in BIG trouble right now. Local papers (S. Jersey) recently reported that CBM suffered a 20+ point drop on the American Stock Exchange- also, Amiga mags are beginning to grumble about the revolving door at Commodore. (ie. Constant departures/arrivals of new employees!) Sound familiar. Granted, Amiga is a stronger seller, but not a devastator. I was also surprised to catch some disatisfaction over Amiga models- evidently, people are grumbling that they want a less bulky model then the 2000, but with the same power. Some are also complaining of over saturation of the Amiga market. It is heartening to to see Atari making modest gains and oddly, I have noticed a slow but steady increase in ST only stores here in the Delaware valley. None of these were around a year ago when I was searching desparately for a place to buy a Mega! One more note- Electronics Boutique has evidently, for the 2nd time dropped the Amiga hard/software line. Makes room for ST? TT?? ATW??? NAH! I do agree with others that the TT/ATW systems should sell thru the professionals. Perhaps a non-business TT (Call it ST-II or ST+) say in a Mega frame with say 2 megs for us poor folks could be introduced? PVM ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 71 Fri Jun 30, 1989 S.NOAH at 23:09 PDT Why not just produce the TT as an OEM UNIX BOX for computer stores ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 72 Sat Jul 01, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 15:44 MDT Just so everyone is aware, a new ATW section has just been added!!! it is topic 38 in this catagory! Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 73 Sat Jul 01, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 19:30 MDT You all are talking like you *ACTUALLY* expect Atari to sell the TT in the present configuration in the near future!! I would be very surprised to see the TT before 1990, and then it will probably have a propretiary non- expandable (aka Mega ST) buss that no one else will ever support!! Get real, and just go out and buy a Mac IIX now!!! I can't see what the mythical TT is supposed to have that you can't already get in a Mac IIX!!! And you get support from Apple, which anyone has to say is better then the non-existent support from Atari (I mean 2 years just to update the TOS ROMs???). Just some thoughts from a person who still likes his two STs!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 74 Sat Jul 01, 1989 G.E.M. at 20:50 PDT One thing the 'mythical' TT will have is a MUCH lower price tag than the Macintrash. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 75 Sun Jul 02, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 10:23 MDT G.E.M. but will it have the third vendor support that the Mac enjoys?? I mean, the Macs already have a CD ROM full of over 400 megs of PD Mac sw. but, TOAD COMPUTERS is already selling a 44 meg removable hard drive, for the ST, so there is some hope for ST third vendors out there!! Did anyone check the statement from Sig Hartman at the WOA show that the TT would be out by then end of the year, or he would quit? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 76 Sun Jul 02, 1989 QMI at 14:15 EDT If anyone has captured the "TT" topic on Usenet, could you upload it to me? G.E.M. Calling the Mac "the Macintrash" is rediculous and lowers the seriousness of our discussions. (Just because I can't afford a Ferrari, I don't call it junk! But I do call my Oldsmobile nasty names every day!). The price of a Mac reflects the unbelievable amount of support they offer to all segments of their business. They have more employees than all of Atari US just to handle the education market, for instance. The MacIIcx will soon have a standard speed of 25MHz and by the time Atari releases the TT, the industry will be at 30Mhz as a standard. More importantly, RISC-based computers are coming down in price and are better performers at 20MHz than a 68030 would be at several times the speed. I have to assume that Atari will inevitably release the TT within a year and that the price/features will be fairly close to the generally known description. These assumption are based on knowing the time it would take to change the design plans and the urgency of getting this product out in order for Atari to stay in the running. Current trends show that the "Power without the Price" way of doing business (in the US anyways) doesn't work anymore. It's far more complicated than that, with marketing methods being the most important. It would take forever to list all of the factors and cost of doing it right is astronomical. Atari could find a niche or two (as with MIDI on the ST) and sell quite a few TT's, but the computer would never make it as a mainstream brand name without a different name and all of the marketing/support etc. JD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 77 Sun Jul 02, 1989 WHITESTR at 19:15 PDT JD--since you've brought up the concept of complexity, perhaps I'll add some notes regarding current marketing theory. The information industry does not operate according to old theories of 'diminishing returns'. The complexity involved with the pool of information consumers is in fact *so* great, as to lend itself mathematically and practically to a model of 'chaos'. Not to get too snooty or abstract here, 'cause this stuff is lived as much in Jack T.'s gut as it is in theorist's heads, but put squarely, it is now understood that price/power/recognition of a given product can literally 'snap' a market in totally unforeseen ways (<--read not figured out through an analysis of 'diminishing returns'.) To see the marketing of the TT in terms of very specific niche needs is not to see it in terms of how it _is_ going to be marketed...to the MASSES. Once the product has disrupted the field (and disruption is a must) it _geometrically_ gains 'dominance' as the presense and urgency of the product draws that attention which would otherwise be attracted to another 'disruptor'. War in this field exists in a context of instigated catastrophe, be that in specific niches or specific societies. Advertising truly counts (propaganda is a must), and there is a terrific amount of strength in the common-man position of Power Without the Price. That one stance is good for a whole lot of disruption, which is why the US computer establishment so shuns even the mentioning of Jack Tramiel and the Atari Corporation. The information business, addressing as it does the human intellect, is premised on the intuition of 'increasing returns', not diminishing ones, and Atari Corp. still shows signs of realizing that. Le'on ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 78 Mon Jul 03, 1989 T.ONDERS [Tim Onders] at 23:58 EDT One must also realize that, while the 'TT' will be partially aimed at the market niche presently filled by the Macintosh II-whatevers, it will be more closely matched with much stiffer competition, such as Sun, NeXT, and SGI. The 'TT' is supposed to be a Unix box, which is something the Mac II does not do particularly well (AUX is not terribly plesant). With the Sun 3/60 down under $10K, and the SparcStation around $15K, the NeXT at $10K commercial, the SGI Personal Iris starting at $12K, and 386i's for under $8K, Atari will be entering a fierce market. The biggest danger, as I see it, is from Sun; a company that will do anything to sell their systems. Unless the 'TT' is particularly impressive, or particularly inexpensive, is probably will not do well. -Tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 79 Tue Jul 04, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:32 EDT But at the price of software for a Sun and for peripherals, I think there will be plenty of room for the Atari machine. The great thing about Atari's position in this area is that even more so than the Mac II (which I think greatly surprised Sun) it will be ignored by the competition until it captures a greater share of the market than expected. Sun is shifting their marketing to compete with Mac II, I'll doubt they'll want to shift again to combat Atari. Given the features reported for the TT and believing there may be a few more surprises thrown in, I think Atari should be able to grab a significant piece of the market. Remembering also that Atari is better positioned to move quickly into the personal computer niche with the TT (something Sun might find difficult or even ignore) and this machine will surely be what people will soon expect from a personal computer. I hope there are lots of great features because I think personal computing has the most fascinating drive and I want to see what that share of the market can do with such a machine. I think the price is workable even if it may appear a little high to the Atari community. I have met more and more people who are laying down $2k-$3k for personal systems. Take a look at what it REALLY costs to put together an 8-bit Atari system (monitor, drive and all) and it starts to look pretty silly next to an ST. There seems to be a minimal price point of about $500 to $800 (discounted) to put together a system. Faster chips and memory do not appear the real base, but things like monitors, drives and keyboards. Anyway, I'm still looking forward to the TT and feel it has a very viable chance for success. (I do feel a 25MHZ or better processor will give it a longer lifespan.) -Craig W. Daymon P.S. R.COVERT1, Your comment about an Atari specific bus doesn't hold with any reports given on the TT. All reports indicate a VME bus, the standard on Unix microprocessor systems. (Besides, wasn't the Apple bus specific to the Mac II?) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 80 Tue Jul 04, 1989 TOWNS at 21:11 EDT Yes, Craig.. The Mac II uses NuBus. Not VME from what I have heard. As to what the TT will contain, I do not know. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 81 Tue Jul 04, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 20:09 MDT C.DAYMON, The MacII uses a MODIFIED NuBus, not a true NuBus. For one thing, the Mac II NuBus isn't as fast as a real nubus. The Atari could make a great market for itself if it has a FAST (30 megahertz) bus to do fast video graphics. As for the bus in the TT, even John Townsend keeps repeating that the TT 's buss was never announced. So, who knows if it will be a real VME buss (a great thing if true) or some bastardized kludge of a buss (aka the Mega ST buss). I would LOVE to buy a TT, simply for the better graphics, but knowing how slow Atari is to provide support (still waiting for a working flow control version of TOS 1.4), I don't have a lot of faith in Atari much these days. Hopefully, Atari will prove me wrong and the TT will be wonderful!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 82 Wed Jul 05, 1989 P.MCCULLOUGH at 00:42 EDT Actually the MAC IIx machines (x here standing for any number of models in this distended family-) are very nice if one has no problem spending truckloads of greenbacks. But if I had those bucks, I'd buy a Sun anything over the Scottish fruit any day. The Sun systems are going to do serious damage to the high end Mac II family. The TT really has no competition (Especially since it doesn't exist as yet in anything other then prototype model-) in its price/market. It'll probably go head to head with Commodore (Assuming Commodore can keep alive after its massive stock dives and sales losses of late- wonder what's going on over there anyway). The other problem with the Mac systems in general are Apple's marketing them as "serious" competition to IBM. Please, get real. The only problem is that if the speculation is correct on the TT price tag (And there's no reason to assume it is) I think the TT will be a difficult sale. Atari needs computer sales in some really BIG business market with BIG visibility if it hopes to sell TTs there. It would be nice if Atari tried donating STs to schools- when students learn on a system, they stick with it. But the fact remains that business has always been, and probably will continue to be Big Blue domain. PVM ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 83 Wed Jul 05, 1989 GORDON at 14:38 EDT I think the TT will be VERY aggressivly priced. The question is will UNIX people buy a low priced machine that does not have the hand holding and support they are used to???? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 84 Wed Jul 05, 1989 C.DAYMON at 22:42 EDT I think there are a GREAT number of Unix people that are waiting for a low (moderately) priced Unix machine and I don't (although I hope it's there) think lack of support will stop them. As the ST market is filled with people ready and willing to tear open their machines to try some tempting mod, so there are a great many Unix people using accelorated AT class machines. I know one guy that has 3 such systems running in his house. They are also people that after getting a TT (Unix) box at home would be very apt to push it into the work environment. (In which most of them are using/administrating Unix systems.) There is a big market for such a machine, the key is that Atari should NOT ignore the very large market associated with support for Unix machines sold to businesses/universities. After all, they would just charge for answering questions (after some initial free support period) and this would keep them up on things in-house to better support and enhance future products. I think the VME bus was mentioned in the Atari Explorer issue that talked about the TT. This, even though it hasn't always been, should be one publication that accurately reports information on Atari products. It's easy enough to check. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 85 Thu Jul 06, 1989 HS [Holly] at 00:58 EDT Gordon, If dealers are selling the TT, a company might well get the kind of hand- holding they're used to. It will depend on the dealer. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 86 Wed Jul 05, 1989 G.E.M. at 22:11 PDT Regarding the bus structure. If Atari really wants to make a mark, the TT should support not only the VME bus, but Future bus as well. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 87 Thu Jul 06, 1989 WHITESTR at 07:15 PDT Gordon, when you mention expected handholding (bet you some guys would get a bit peeved at that comment, true or not) are you refering to end-user or developer? I'm thinking that if Atari slaps on a GUI (X.desktop possibly??) and works on porting some popular apps so that they are compatible, handholding becomes no more a need, neccessarily, than on the ST. For developers, well, that's another story. Le'on ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 88 Thu Jul 06, 1989 GORDON at 14:56 EDT Actually what I was refering to was the simple fact that you do not go to the local store and purchase a Sun workstation. A TRAINED salesman from SUN visits you, sells you the computer and makes sure you know how to use it. He also makes sure things like what happened on here recently do not happen (a computer was lost in repair for 6 months). Its just a different approach. I think everyone here will admit that Atari is not at the top of the list for prompt efficient customer service. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 89 Thu Jul 06, 1989 QMI at 16:39 EDT Gordon, SUN's *ARE* being sold through computer stores now... thru the CompterLand chain. It takes a special type of dealer, though, and just about all of the Atari dealers (that are left) would not have the resources to handle the support needed for a UN*X machine. With the lower prices on the Sun ws's, they aren't making those individual sales visits like they used to do. With this new low end approach, it will make it harder for anyone to compete with Sun. Le'onm I agree that a graphical user interface is a MUST for the un*x side of the TT... or any lower-priced workstation. I hope Atari is talking with a company who will license a well-known working environment to be included with the base computer. From everything I have heard, it looks like the TT will be priced very closely to an equivalent Sun machine. Sounds like a critical problem and worth at least a few 'choas-theory-styled' board meetings! JD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 90 Thu Jul 06, 1989 BREHBOCK at 22:13 CDT There are a lot of aggressive VARS out there that are doing quite well with the Everex Step (TM) series, and the TT would fit in that niche rather well. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 91 Thu Jul 06, 1989 M.MCCANN2 at 23:44 EDT I think I must disagree with the contention that Atari is bad at customer service. Recently my color monitor died and I sent it from here (east coast) to there and it was back in exactly 3 weeks. I was, to be frank, shocked. I was told to expect 6-8 weeks, which I was truly expecting (as in, 6 at best). Three was simply outstanding. Of course, being able to take it in for repair locally would be faster still, BUT as that will probably not be possible till the 1 millionth or so ST is sold in the US (IF THEN, around HERE), this WAS a quick and reasonable alternative... By the way, it was a Goldstar, and the flyback was melted, after 2 years' use. These things happen...too bad I can't get a Goldstar flyback or I'd still have it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 92 Thu Jul 06, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 22:07 MDT Of course this is all pure speculation, as Atari has never even admitted publicly that the TT exists, or when it will ship. Just ask John Townsend. John keeps repeating that nothing can be said about the TT until it is released. So, who really knows what it will be like. To back this up, think back about 3 years, and remember what features the Blitter chip was supposed to have. And look at the Blitter that was released. IT Only has about half the features that Atari said it was supposed to have. So, I don't believe anything about the TT until it is released. Until then, Atari can change from the VME buss to one of their own design if they so choose. This is not to say that I don't want one, because I do!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 93 Fri Jul 07, 1989 GRIBNIF at 23:23 EDT What I think Atari needs to do, in addition to the TT with all of its features and ports and doo-dahs is release a lower end 68030 like Apple has done with the SE 68030. This would be a Mega 4 with a 68030 and the higher resolutions of the TT. Correctly priced to fit between the TT and the Mega 4. Of course, I doubt Atari would do this. I would also recommend the release of a Mega 1 to dealers for $1,199-mono and $1,399 color and adding it to the Mega dealer line. Then take the 1040ST and release it mass-market. (Discontinue the 520ST or release it mass-market too). This would allow a 1Meg machine to go mass market and get better sales and such, while allowing dealers to still carry a 1 Meg low priced machine that only they have. I also think they should take the Moniterm and their present $4,000 Mega 4 DP package, bundle it with Calamus and release a Moniterm DP Package for $5,999.95. Pity I don't work for Atari... Rick ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 94 Sat Jul 08, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 14:58 MDT As far as Apple having better costumer support than Atari, well they have more resources, but I have heard many people complain about the costomer service that Apple has. I have also heard many complain (I am one who does) about the buggyness and the amount of systems they keep releasing. I have run systems that over a period of time become unstable and use more and more ram, and no one can explain it. I have worked with many different Macs, and if you told a service person about the errors I have gotten, he would say that's impossable. At least the STs errors are predicatable! And I have talked to Apple users who say for over a year that Apple has been promising a laptop mac, well where is it? Now as far as releasing the STs for mass marketing, do you mean sell them at Sears, I hope not. If Atari sells computers at Sears, noone will even take the ATW seriously! I mean that Atari can sell 8-bits at Sears with only minor damage to their name, but when they sell 16-bit computers through Sears, noone will take their 16-bit computers seriously. Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 95 Sat Jul 08, 1989 DMAY [Student] at 18:46 EDT The summer is a rather slow for customer returns since most of the problems arise during the XMAS season from all those video game systems. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 96 Mon Jul 10, 1989 WLR at 01:29 PDT Basically, I think Atari's TT will fail in the marketplace because as computers get more expensive and buyers get more vertically based with the third party software and hardware availibilty and support being as important or more important than the computer itself a high-end computer from Atari who has been established as neither here nor there to third party manufactors/companies. Atari's customers have been, in the past, willing to wait for software to meet their needs to come onto the marketplace. People that buy computers that cost 4K plus know exactly what software to buy and will NOT wait for dreamy promises from anyone like many early Mac/ST & Amiga users did. I mean would you buy a TT for a certain application, pay the big bucks and sit and wait for a third party to develop it. Some might say well the machine is backward compatable-- if that is true then the buyer would buy the cheaper machine nor the TT. Worse, Atari no longer has a upgradeable loyal user base. Atari also cannot play the "Power without the Price" game. Reason: Unlike the ST verses the old Mac where the ST was twice the machine for half the price the TT will be about the same machine for about 2/3 the price when in the marketplace to WOW! a buyer it would NOW have to be four times the machine at half the price. THAT is why the TT will do a piddle of business in the U.S. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 97 Mon Jul 10, 1989 GORDON at 13:52 EDT QMI. John where did you hear that the TT was going to be the same price as a SUN. I heard it was going to be real cheap!!! As far as a Graphical User Interface. Atari has GEM and GDOS!! (sound of Gordon ducking) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 98 Mon Jul 10, 1989 C.DAYMON at 23:18 EDT There is also a version of GEM that runs under Unix (via X-Windows) and since the TT will run Unix, there should be plenty of powerful software very fast. Over 20 years of Unix must mean there is some good stuff out there that will show up almost immediately for the TT. Besides, there are a great many very good ST programs that will surely shine running on the TT. (Any DTP program, DynaCAD, LDW Power, Touch-Up,...) This machine DOES have a market RIGHT NOW! The ATW also has a market, but may be slightly slower to develope because of the limited number of programmers experienced with parallel computing. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 99 Tue Jul 11, 1989 LEN-F at 01:28 EDT I can't imagine that the TT or the ATW (come on, let's get some catchy, palatable names for these machines!!!!!!) will succeed in the marketplace given the ATROCIOUS way Atari treats dealers and their REDICULOUS AVERSION to advertising. It is a shame that the fate of these fine machines is in the hands of such seemingly incompetent businesspeople! LEN F ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 100 Tue Jul 11, 1989 PSINC [Mark S.] at 11:42 EDT Gordon, I think John was refering to Atari's track record of bringing out a machine at more than they expected (let alone later than expected). Two years ago they were saying "under 5000". A lot has happened since then, and SUn machines are _much_ cheaper now. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 101 Wed Jul 12, 1989 BREHBOCK at 00:52 CDT Rick, I say we (Atari Owners/Retailers/Developers) all buy up a bunch of Atari stock, and start kind of an ESOP, but it would be an O-SOP: Owner-Stock- Ownership-Plan! Ok-ok, you can be CEO :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 102 Sat Jul 15, 1989 R.GRIDLEY [Rick] at 09:22 EDT A lot of companies, smaller ones, would be inticed by a Unix/TT system that could use 520ST's as smart terminals in the TT network. Low cost and high power for said network could be a real plus in selling. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 103 Sat Jul 15, 1989 TOWNS at 15:38 EDT Point well taken.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 104 Sun Jul 16, 1989 S.NOAH at 01:53 PDT If the TT is indeed going to support Unix and X-Windows, has anyone given any thought to creating an X-Windows terminal program for the ST ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 105 Sun Jul 16, 1989 TOWNS at 15:40 EDT I think one already Exists.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 106 Sun Jul 16, 1989 C.DAYMON at 22:29 EDT There's probably a few in the Unix public domain. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 107 Tue Jul 18, 1989 K.BAD [S/W Engine] at 21:33 EDT An X-terminal is not that easy to implement, I seriously doubt that there are any useable PD ones. And I think John's right - I believe one X-ists ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 108 Tue Jul 18, 1989 G.E.M. at 22:46 PDT If the TT implements X-Windows, it better use X11. That's the new standard. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 109 Wed Jul 19, 1989 C.DAYMON at 22:18 EDT I relatively sure that the code for X-Windows is PD via MIT, so I doubt that Atari would go with anything less than the latest version. (Besides, I think X11 has been around for a while now.) A better question is whether Atari is planning support of Motif or Open Look. Seems like Motif is winning and from the pictures, it looks better. Anybody know functionally which may be stronger? A machine like the TT may well be able to SET the next standard if they choose wisely. (Considering the lower planned price than other competing machines.) Have there been any talks with Pixar about porting RasterMan? (To the ATW also.) -Craig W. Daymon P.S. Latest trade journals report Motif is due to ship very soon. I do hate the idea that IBM has a claw in it, but it does seem to have support. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 110 Wed Jul 19, 1989 K.BAD [S/W Engine] at 23:24 EDT As far as I know, we have not settled on a user interface standard for the Unix version of TT. It seems more important for us to wait for the dust to clear among the competing X user interface standards. We do have a "standard" graphical shell that will be shipped with the thing, though. ttfn... (*ken @ atari*) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 111 Wed Jul 19, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 23:49 MDT oh wow!! Ken you really shouldn't talk about the TT in public!! You *know* that the TT has never been officially announced!! You are gonna get into trouble with Sam T if you aint careful!! But, we all here want to know more!! What is the graphical shell?? Multi-tasking TOS?? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 112 Wed Jul 19, 1989 S.NOAH at 23:07 PDT If an X-terminal program for the ST X-ists, it might be a nice idea for Atari to mention it as part of any future "TT" sales literature. If they could sell STs ( even 520 without drives could be used if the program was on a cartrige ) as remote terminals for the TTs. They could thus offer a total multiuser Unix system with a graphic interface. Something like this could be a nice package for a small or medium sized business. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 113 Thu Jul 20, 1989 TOWNS at 03:04 EDT Hmm, that is a good idea. I will pass it along to the marketing gurus here at Atari. And yes, Ken.. what are you trying to do! Get us all in trouble? :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 114 Thu Jul 20, 1989 DOUG.W [ST*SYSOP] at 03:14 EDT I think the biggest problem with X-Windows would be memory requirements. If I remember right, X-Windows requires around 2 Megs, without any programs running. Also, to get any speed out of it, you would probably have to by-pass TOS entirely (MT-C Shell is just bearable, and it doesn't have any windowing, and VSH Manager is UNBEARABLY slow). --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 115 Thu Jul 20, 1989 S.NOAH at 23:08 PDT Hmm... I don't know about the memory requirements for an X-terminal, 2 Megs sounds like quite a bit though. Since we have a mixed environment at work ( 6 VAXs, an IBM Mainframe, 2 Microvaxs, and a couple of hundred P.C.s ) I get to see a lot of networking literature. One thing I noticed quite a bit are schemes to convert older P.C.s ( PC, XT ) for use as X-terminals. It's a good idea, because of all the uses that these machines could be put to, this one dosn't require any changes to the motherbaord. ( I must mention that there had been proposals to upgrade these machines to 386 boards. ) Further, our service vendor ( DEC ) will not work on machines if they have a non stock system board. So, this idea gives new life and usefulness to these older machines. P.S. Sorry that I digressed, I meant to say that If a 640k PC could be set up as an X-terminal, I don't know why a 1Meg ST would have any problem doing the same. P.P.S. Now all I have to do is try and convince someone to put DEC- Windows up on one of the VAXs, even the Micro VAX would do, so that we could test some of this out. Not likely, we can't even get approval to let the users test Word Perfect. Were stuck supporting Mass(ive)-11 ( ...ugh ). Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 116 Fri Jul 21, 1989 DOUG.W [ST*SYSOP] at 04:06 EDT I would suspect that a 640K X-Terminal could only support a subset of the complete X-Windows system. The UNIX system I use has 8Megs of RAM, and after starting the system (without X-Windows running), there is 4.4Megs free. After starting X-Windows this drops to around 2.7Megs without any processes running. --Doug P.S. this is a 25Mhz 68030 machine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 117 Fri Jul 21, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:44 EDT 8Megs down to 4.4 with just Unix? Sounds like a LOT of programs have been set to be resident. (not paged) We have had Unix V.3 running on a 2Meg Motorola system for over a year now with no problems. (Except for a few we inflicted on ourselves in development.) Do you have a large cache? -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 118 Fri Jul 21, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:16 PDT To be honest I don't know a lot about the workings of an X-terminal, but one question does come to mind. When you load X-windows on your Unix system are you then capable of supporting remote X-terminals on your machine ? This feature, I would imagine, would take up a lot more of the system's resources than the "terminal only" set up I had in mind. THe ST would be just a dumb terminal ( in the same way as I am using mine for to enter this message, just a more sophisticated one ). ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 119 Sun Jul 23, 1989 DOUG.W [ST*SYSOP] at 00:53 EDT Good point. Yes, this machine is capable of supporting remote X-Terminals at the same time. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 120 Sat Jul 22, 1989 S.WHITNEY at 22:11 PDT About support... How about selling the TT cheap and then hiting a couple of phone support people and _charging for support. Atari might even make a profit as well as making their system competitive where support is required! --Steve ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 121 Sun Jul 23, 1989 C.DAYMON at 16:39 EDT Wow! An Atari '900' number! 1-900-FIXMYTT. Only $.50 a minute. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 122 Sun Jul 23, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 16:03 MDT How much networking/multitasking will the TT be able to handle? i thought that it was just an expensive and high level personal computer-like the Mac II, and the ATW was the real networking beast. Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 123 Tue Jul 25, 1989 T.ONDERS [Tim Onders] at 19:44 EDT DOUG: An X-Windows terminal actually requires very little memory, not the two megs that you quote. What an X-Windows terminal is, is simply the client end of X running remotely from the server. The applications, Unix, and all of the processing are done on a server chine, in this case a TT, and the X terminal only displays the results. It does not take much processing power, since all the terminal is doing is displaying graphics. It does, however, require 19.2K bps connection, or ethernet. Might I recommend that you read the july issue of Byte magazine? It has some good information on Unix X interfaces and the Client-Server paradigm used by X. (I think it was July) -Tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 124 Tue Jul 25, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:39 PDT Thanks for the info on the July BYTE magazine, I guess now I have a reason to renew our office subscription. About the baud rate or etherlink connect , has anybody seen any of those parallel to etherlink adapters that are out for the PC. Do you think that, with the right software, they might work on the ST. ( They are being sold as etherlink adapters for laptop PCs. ) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 125 Thu Jul 27, 1989 DOUG.W [ST*SYSOP] at 06:22 EDT Hmm, I'll have to look at that BYTE. I guess I'm just used to an X-Windows system which keeps separate bit-maps for each window and continues to update them even if they are partially obscured by other windows, or even while they are being dragged around the screen. There's also a bunch of processing that must occur on the terminal if you do it right, such as mouse handling, bit-blitting, high-speed line and text graphics routines, etc. Yes, you could do without much of this, but then what's the point? --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 126 Fri Jul 28, 1989 T.ONDERS [Tim Onders] at 20:02 EDT Don't see why the RS-232 to Ethernet adapters could not be used with an ST, but I would think the highest allowable throughput would be 19.2K. Admitedly, an X terminal must do a bunch of graphics computing, but an ST could handle that, especially without doing the applications processing. -Tim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 127 Sat Jul 29, 1989 S.NOAH at 01:12 PDT I found the article on the parallel to ethernet adapter, it was in InfoWeek ( April 17,89 ). The adapter is made by a company called Xircom, but is a little bit pricey for the ST market ( $695 ). The Network access speed is said to be 500 kbps on an AT class machine. The adapter comes in three configurations, one for thin ( BNC ) Ethernet, one for Thick Ethernet ( with an external tranceiver ), and one for twisted pair connection. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 128 Sat Jul 29, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 13:17 MDT *********************************************************** I saw in my current issue of STart, that the next issue (only a few days away) will have an interview with Sam himself, and he will discuss the Stacy and the TT! Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 129 Sat Jul 29, 1989 C.DAYMON at 16:09 EDT Boy! That will be a nice article. Now if the post office will get around to delivering my August issue of STart, I can waite the month for the September. (While the Sept. issue sits on the news stands.) -CWD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 130 Sat Jul 29, 1989 SANDY.W [SysOp] at 17:38 EDT Not to mention the lead times on articles.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 131 Sun Jul 30, 1989 M.LOADER1 [Mike Loader] at 09:07 PDT If Atari is hypothetically choosing between Motif and Open Look for its hypo- thetical TT, then here's one vote for Open Look. - Mike - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 132 Sun Jul 30, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:55 EDT Atari may very well be able to swing a good deal with AT&T over Open-Look due to the way things are heading toward Motif. AT&T may be very willing to help out with a machine that will place their interface in front of more people than a standard workstation would. Sun might not go for it though. Particularily if it starts to look like another Mac II to contend with. -CWD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 133 Sun Jul 30, 1989 GRIBNIF at 23:09 EDT The Atari Parallel port and a true IBM parallel port are very different. The Xircom adapter will not work on the ST's more limited parallel port. (Same reason why many of the PC-Link adaptors that use the parallel port to link laptops to a desktop computer wont work with PC-Ditto) Rick ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 134 Mon Jul 31, 1989 S.NOAH at 00:24 PDT Oh ! Never mind. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 135 Tue Aug 01, 1989 K.BAD [S/W Engine] at 23:51 EDT AT&T wants a LOT LOT LOT of money for Open Look. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 136 Wed Aug 02, 1989 C.DAYMON at 19:16 EDT i thought I saw something in Unix Today! that said they had recently changed that attitude. Since the majority seems to be favoring Motif, I think they have had to rethink it. This is a VERY recent change. (Besides, those little push-pins look interesting.) -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 137 Tue Aug 29, 1989 SLP at 07:55 EDT In the latest issue of Computer Shopper, I noticed an Ethernet adapter for the Mac that was a SCSI device. It could be part of a SCSI chain and was $495. Probably could be used with the ST without much trouble. Now where was that address: Compatible Systems Co. P.O. Drawer 17220 Boulder, CO 80308 (800) 356-0283 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 138 Wed Aug 30, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 23:48 MDT There has been some talk on comp.sys.atari.st on USENET from Germany about the new 68030 TT which was announced on the 25th. There are two sides that I have seen. One is that the TT will be on par with the Mac IIx (the 16MHz Macintosh) and the other is that because of bad hardware design the TT will be VERY slow compared to other 68030 machines. It does seem that Atari is using a modified VME buss, which uses only 24 address bit and only 16 data bits. This has been confirmed by a guy in Germany who saw a demo TT. Also, the TT will use a propretiary color monitor,so your NEC Multisync monitor won't run on the TT. The release date was NOT announced, though it is expected that the TT will be available by Christmas in Germany. No news of the TT in the States though. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 139 Thu Aug 31, 1989 DANSCOTT at 18:10 EDT <SIGH> No comment..... <GRIN> Dan/Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 140 Thu Aug 31, 1989 S.NOAH at 21:47 PDT When can we expect to see an official Atari press release on the TT & STe ? There are quite a few discrepancies in the various descriptions I've read, this is especialy true of the STe. One question that continues to bother me is .. Are the new graphics modes on the STe and the TT the same ? I've read to many conflicting reports to be sure of anything. Even the conference from last night didn't resolve all of the discrepant reports. Please, could somebody at Atari post the Specs on these machines before the rumours become more widespread than the reality. Thanks, Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 141 Fri Sep 01, 1989 TOWNS at 01:10 EDT I am not sure when I can get a press release online. As for your question on video modes. Yes, they are the same. the STE modes are a subset of the available TT modes. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 142 Fri Sep 01, 1989 K.BAD at 02:12 EDT What John said about press releases. Until then, I've been given leave to talk about TT "a bit" (whatever that means ;-) so I'll do my best to quell any misinformation without getting myself in trouble with my boss (Leonard has a tendency to get, um, upset sometimes ;-). All the discussion in the world on Usenet is not going to mean a whole lot until the people involved have actually _used_ TT's and have read the hardware specs. The TT's hardware design is not going to make it slow WRT other 68030 machines - in fact there are some features of the TT which will make it much faster than an "ST with a 68030." Even so, as far as compatibility is concerned, the TT _is_ an "ST with a 68030," and a lot more enhancements. If you're interested, I might be able to provide a few more specifics on the hardware speed issues; for now, let's just say that some of the postings on the nets have ranged from slightly erroneous to outright absurd. The VME bus on the TT is not "modified" in any way - it is a standard "Eurocard" format. Using the smaller cards in the first version of TT (the one shown in Dusseldorf, called "TT030/2" for now) has a big advantage in terms of cost reduction. We could have wangled the "full sized" VME cards into a TT case, but it would have made it considerably bigger, with considerably more complex hardware, and MUCH more expen$ive. Atari delivers Power without the Price, remember?! TT does not use a proprietary color monitor - any standard monitor capable of displaying VGA graphics will be usable, with the proper adjustments for screen aspect ratio. Currently in Sunnyvale, I have seen five or six different kinds of monitors hooked up to TT's, including NEC MultiSync monitors. One other unfortunate bit of misinformation was put out at the Dusseldorf show, and that is relative TT speed. In the original press release we sent to Germany to be translated for the flyers handed out at the show, we stated that the features of TT make for four times the memory bandwidth of the ST. That means, _raw memory access_ in "dual purpose" RAM (that shared by video and processor) is four times the speed of ST. HOWEVER, there is also an option for "fast" nibble-mode RAM which is _not_ shared by video, and other hardware factors make actual program execution speed as much as TEN TIMES as fast as on ST. Your mileage may vary. ttfn... (*ken @ atari*) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 143 Tue Aug 29, 1989 M.VEDERMAN2 (Forwarded) More text from USEnet. Please remember, I am posting this as I captured it from USEnet. I have not seen the TT, nor do I have any opinions regarding the TT (although it does sound nice, I doubt it'll make it to the US market!) OK, OK, so I do have some opinions! This retort to the previous posting sounds pretty good. I especially like that it is TOS/GEM compatible!! kBAD: USEnet *is* good, in that we lowly peons in the United States (who apparently get neglected by Atari Corp.) can at least find out how Atari treats the 'preferred' crowd overseas!!! ----------- BEGIN USEnet posting from SOMEONE ELSE ---------------------- Article 18025 (3 more) in comp.sys.atari.st: From: atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) Subject: Re: Duesseldorf: personal impression of the TT(T) Message-ID: <1572@laura.UUCP> Date: 26 Aug 89 18:57:08 GMT References: <8908251936.AA19454@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Reply-To: atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) Organization: Universitaet Dortmund Lines: 92 OK, don't believe everything you see or hear :-) :-0 I've been demoing the TT today and (prob.) tomorrow with Smalltalk80. So please let me correct some mistakes and official :-) romours. In article <8908251936.AA19454@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> V61@DHDURZ1.BITNET (Ronald L amprecht) writes: >-68030, 16MHz >- VME slot (A24,D16) >shared RAM for video and processor with an access time of 250ns >- tiny ugly box with the old ST keyboard with it's famous function keys >Price: appr. DM 5700 -- including 30MB Harddisk and color monitor >(They said it wouldn't be sold without the Harddisk or the color monitor -- > no chance for a cheap upgrade) Wrong. What you saw was the 'complete' low-cost version. Certainly there will be packages without harddrive. However the monitor is somewhat special (close to VGA but not close enough) so good ones like NEC multisync will work but result in a bad picture with thick borders around. It RUNS the old ST harddisks so you can get it cheaper than 6500DM incl.VAT None at Atari is willing to give final statements about that though. Leonard Tramiel said to me: 'Germain sales will determine the packages (in Germany)'. So I'll stay optimistic. >Seeing this I called it a TTT --- namely a Tic Tac Toe machine: You will never >loose something with respect to the old ST, but you have no chance to win >a jackpot with it. Ouch, Amiga owner? >Actually I would call it a wastage of highly sophisticated microprocessors >the way an 68030 is slowed down to 2MHz Busfrequency. A (A24,D16) VME slot >that would have been something useful for the ST, but an 68030 should be >worth an full 32bit VME slot ! A speedupfactor of 4 that's a shame and I'm >quite sure the TT will be the slowest 68030 machine that will ever exist. >I wouldn't call the TTT a workstation -- and I won't buy it. Tstststs, turn your mind on before you talk! 1. The processor runs at 2MHz with VME bus only but at full 16Mhz else. 2. The speed factor is 3times(my minimal guess) < 4times < 5times (Leonard). So do some calculations.... Smalltalk80 for instance runs at 40% Dorado on the ST. It runs at 116% Dorado on the MacII (CX) with the same software! So if the TT is 4 times faster than the ST it will run at 160% Dorado and thats a bringer. I estimate this machine as equivalent to the Max II (CX). 3. The TT uses this so called 'Slow Ram' for the lower 2meg only. The real memory expansion (who uses a workstation with 2meg anyway?) takes place at 16meg++ addresses and is called "Fast Ram". This uses full and sophisticated caching with 4*64bit burst filling. The application can decide (loader flag) where the binaries should lie and where Malloc() calls should take place. So my impressions (I AM NOT PAID BY ATARI, BUT I LIKE TO TAKE ONE :-) It has a *UGLY* design (at least). It is as fast as a MacII (at least) It is *VERY* TOS compatible. Well, I'd say the Software is not TOS compatible. Calamus for instance runs and about 90% of professional software too. Expect problems with alot of games. It has nice color graphics (forgot howmany, but *ALOT*) and a nice high resolution monochrome mode (16??@6??). It is the cheapest workstation of that power around (about 1/2 the price of comparable competitors here in Germany). Besides: - the drive will be 1.44 meg although they show 720 right now - the keyboard will be better. It's just a mega keyboard on the fair. - the monitors will be better. They took VGA monitors for the fair. It will be in the shops sometimes between Christmas and early spring. Nobody dared to name an exact date though :-) If you'll find to take a ride to Duesseldorf you'll enjoy the fair. There are alot of nice presentations. Andreas Toenne atoenne@unido.uucp Disclaimer: I speak for myself only and not for Atari or my boss. I may have misunderstood some things and perhaps some of the 'facts' are wrong or will change. But the machine is real and not bad either. ------------- END USEnet POSTING --------------------- Sounds good? Will this ever see it to market in the US? If it sees its way to the US market will it die from lack of ATARI Corp. support? Will anyone in the US be able to make a living supporting the TT????? - mike vederman ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 144 Wed Aug 30, 1989 WBLAIR (Forwarded) Mike, Many thanks for that USEnet post. Great to here something positive about TT for a change. Now if I could just get more info on the STE. Guess I'll have to get in on the conference with SamTramiel tonight. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 145 Thu Aug 31, 1989 RHELZ (Forwarded) I missed the conference with Sam Tramiel...busy with school. Is it now availible for downloading? Could someone give me a file number? Thank you kindly in advance. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 146 Thu Aug 31, 1989 HS (Forwarded) I think there's both a non-ARCd and an ARCd version. If I remember right, one was 11996 and the other was 11997. Perhaps one of the STOps could post the numbers on the door... (I think that Jeff mentioned the numbers in Cat 14.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 147 Fri Sep 01, 1989 DAVESMALL (Forwarded) Dot -- thanks for doing the translation -- and apologies for the all the typos I'm sure you corrected for me. (I can just see the original translation of what I typed in before correction, given the usual 1 typo per line rate I manage... "Introducing the Atari TT Selective Fire Assault Weapon". Oh, well. ) -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 148 Fri Sep 01, 1989 JEFF.W (Forwarded) Holly pegged the file numbers for the transcripts exactly: Un-ARC'ed: File #11996 ARC'ed: File #11997 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 149 Fri Sep 01, 1989 M.VEDERMAN2 (Forwarded) Here is some more text from USEnet, this time straight from a reliable source, Allan Pratt! This is a LONG one! --------------- BEGIN ALLAN PRATT'S USEnet POST--------------- Article 18181 (21 more) in comp.sys.atari.st: From: apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) Subject: Re: Duesseldorf: personal impression of the TT(T) Message-ID: <1670@atari.UUCP> Date: 31 Aug 89 01:19:58 GMT References: <8908251936.AA19454@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> <1572@laura.UUCP> <123947@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> Organization: Atari Corp., Sunnyvale CA Lines: 97 cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: >Hmmm, the whole graphics capability question is really foggy so far. Here's some really straight scoop about the TT from inside Atari: The video palette has *4* bits per gun for color values. That is, you have a total of 4096 colors: 16 levels each of red, green, and blue. (The ST has a palette of 512 colors: 8 levels for each gun.) Another "color" mode provides 256 levels of grey (actually green), for really fine reproduction of a black-and-white image. This is independent of the resolution: if you're in a 16-color mode, you can pick any 16 levels from the spectrum of 256. (We call this hyper-monochrome: one color, but a lot of it!) There are *6* video modes: the three ST modes (totally compatible), plus 640x480 16-color, plus 320x480 *256* color, plus 1280x960 monochrome. ALL of these modes except the last can be shown on a single monitor. That monitor need not be multisync. It can be a slightly modified VGA monitor, or (of course) the monitor which Atari will sell for the TT. The last mode needs a Viking monitor or something similar. ST high rez (640 x 400 x 2 colors) is not limited to black and white: you can choose any two colors. >Does this mean it has a "DMA" port like the 520/1040/MegaX ? Does it have >a "real" SCSI port as well? What kind of through put can be expected from >the hard disk interfaces? Can it do DMA and access > 4Meg ? Yes, there is a DMA port like on the ST and Mega. Your hard disk will plug right in. You can connect a bootable SH204 and it will boot! There is also an external SCSI port. The SCSI port can access the full 32-bit address space; the ACSI port is limited to 24-bit addresses. The internal hard drive is connected to the SCSI bus. >Is the >VME slot the _only_ way to expand it, or does it have a Mega compatible >expansion connector as well? There are a number of ways to expand the TT: you can add 2MB of dual-purpose (video and CPU) RAM, or 10MB when 4Mbit chips are available. You can add 4MB of REALLY FAST 32-bit nybble-mode RAM (not video-capable), and there's the VME bus. The number 2MHz that's been bandied about needs some explanation: The CPU and memory clock speed is 16MHz. There are four clocks in a bus cycle. For dual-purpose RAM, around half the bus cycles go to the video or refresh. Therefore, the CPU gets around two million MEMORY ACCESSES per second, or 2MHz. There are other architectural details which make it a little faster than that. And remember, each access gets you 32 bits, not 16 as on the ST. Also, since the CPU is allocated half the bus cycles, it isn't ALWAYS postponed by video or refresh: it might try to access the bus just as its turn comes up, and not wait at all. Therefore dual-purpose memory accesses run at MORE THAN 2MHz. "Fast" RAM does not have video taking up any of the cycles, so you don't have to wait for that. It takes 4 or 5 clocks (I think) to set up a fast-RAM access, but "nybble mode" means that the CPU fills its cache in "burst mode" at one cycle per subsequent access. The VME logic introduces one wait state, so a VMEbus access takes 5 clocks. (Your mileage may vary: VME cards vary widely in response time.) But, again, you won't be held off the bus by video. VME in the TT shown in Germany is A24/D16 (24 bits of addess, 16 bits of data). >[programs can load in fast RAM or dual-purpose RAM] By a "loader option" the original poster means "load program off disk" not "load .o files into a .prg file." This is correct: there are flags in the PRG header which control the behavior of Pexec and Malloc. Most program can run in fast RAM -- programs which change the screen base pointer and some other things can't, though. >[RAM on the VME bus] You *can* put memory on the VME bus. The performance penalty is not bad. TOS will recognize that memory and use it for programs if you set it up right. >Does it have a Blitter ? No need for one. The reason for the Blitter is to remove instruction- fetch overhead from memory operations, and with the 68030 on-chip cache, the TT does just fine without it. >>It is the cheapest workstation of that power around (about 1/2 the price >>of comparable competitors here in Germany). You can say that again. Please, people, remember that when you compare the TT with a Next machine, for instance, you're talking about roughly 4x the price! JT's motto is Power Without the Price, and we think we're giving you just that. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt End of article 18181 (of 18203)--what next? [npq] ------------------ END OF POST -------------------- Sounds good? I like it. Now the only question is: HOW MUCH WILL IT COST WHEN IT MAKES IT TO THE US? - mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 150 Fri Sep 01, 1989 SANDY.W (Forwarded) Looks like Atari is starting to discuss the TT in it's topic in Category 14 Topic 35. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 151 Fri Sep 01, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] (Forwarded) Mike: Thank you for the post. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 152 Fri Sep 01, 1989 TOWNS (Forwarded) Yes, Mike thank you for the post. Darlah can we forward Allan's message to the TT topic in CAT 14? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 153 Sat Sep 02, 1989 PHOTO.3 at 17:47 EDT How about to a file in the library? It's a bit long for the BB, don't you think? (Wasn't there some talk about what are library files and what are messages? Seems to me that a Bulletin Board gives the impression that the messages are like short and sweet notes tacked up on a board...) Appreciate the info, however, Mike. --Jerry Finzi ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 154 Sat Sep 02, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 19:48 MDT TOWNS, I asked my local dealer if the Moniterm 19" monitor would be compatible with the TT, and he didn't know. The Moniterm monitor requires a Mega ST board, so that would indicate that it won't work on the TT. Could you clarify the situation with regards to the Moniter mon itor?? KEN, thanks for your excellent notes on the TT. It is nice to have someone from Atari rebut the rumors floating around about the TT. Good work!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 155 Sat Sep 02, 1989 D.ENGEL at 22:07 EDT I didn't mind the length of that message. I like long ones! However, I noticed that everyone has been so concerned with graphics power and cpu power of the TT, that nobody has questioned the sound of the thing. Is the sound of the TT going to make Amiga and Apple IIGS owners drool? Is the TT the birthplace of AMY? Please anyone fill us in on the sound chip in the TT! Getting back to the recent posts, can anyone explain what 'nybble mode' and 'burst mode' and all of that fast ram techno-jargon means. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about microprocessors, but I have never herad oops. never HEARD of those terms. Are they an Atari specific term, or a 68030 term? Also, what special features of the 68030 are being utilized in the TT? Can the TT support virtual memory? Also, it was mentioned earlier that the EST had a new shifter which had more hardware capabilities like fine scrolling... please, please, let this feature be in the TT shifter... I can live without GENLOCK but put fine scrolling in the TT shifter. While on the subject of the EST... how does the EST handle existing software sound calls to the AY-3-8910? Is it still there? By the way, what are the chances that the only major differences between my ST and an EST as far as graphics are concerned is a new MMU and a new shifter? Anyone care to wager? The new sound chip could be taked on anywhere in the upper RAM addresses, and the new controllers would be read by a new keyboard processor. How about that for a low cost upgrade? New MMU, Shifter, keyboard circuitboard, and a sound chip daughterboard! okay. enough already. I hope this starts some conversation going. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 156 Sat Sep 02, 1989 DOUG.W at 23:12 EDT The new sound chip is a bit trickier to add. It isn't mapped directly to memory addresses. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 157 Sun Sep 03, 1989 D.ENGEL at 08:48 EDT If what you say is true, then it lends credibility to the idea that the EST is merely an ST with a few add-ons included. If the sound chip isn't memory mapped, then it must be I/O mapped in some way. I seem to recall there were unused I/O port bits somewhere in there... if so, it would be even simpler to add than if it were memory mapped. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 158 Sun Sep 03, 1989 GORDON at 09:47 EDT Actually I thought the TT looked really nice.. It does not look like a mega in any way, shape or form.. Try to picture this a flat box the size of a large cookie sheet about 1 in tall. then they put a mega on the left side and a disk drive on the left side pored plastic over the top.. there is a deep indentation betweent the mega and disk drive.. It looks nice. I heard some people say it was hard to put a monitor on it because of the deep indentation.. but I did not try it... It did look nice though.. I liked its looks anyway.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 159 Sun Sep 03, 1989 MRAYMOND at 10:55 CDT On the other hand, if the two "bumps" are the same height, you could stadlle the with a monitor and use the hole to stuf your important papers (ie Genie uploads you will do next, pens, pencils, crayons, etc) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 160 Sun Sep 03, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 11:43 MDT Will the TT's TOS be multitasking?? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 161 Sun Sep 03, 1989 C.DAYMON at 15:36 EDT The TT will come with TOS 1.4 which is NOT multitasking. You can, as an option, buy Unix for (possibly not all configurations) the TT if you want multitasking. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 162 Sun Sep 03, 1989 D.A.BRUMLEVE at 22:04 CDT To check out more of Gordon Monnier's opinions on the TT, the Duesseldorf show, the European Atari market, etc., check out Cat 9, Top 5, Message 66 and Cat 10, Top 3, Message 20 over in the MichTron RT. To get there, type m490;1 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 163 Mon Sep 04, 1989 DAVESMALL at 00:25 EDT Dot, thank you for the pointer! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 164 Mon Sep 04, 1989 K.BAD [s/w engine] at 06:17 EDT Mike: Thanks for forwarding the Usenet posts. However, could you please lose the headers when you re-post 'em here? Pretty please? (I keep headers turned OFF when I'm reading netnews - I use brief prompts here on GEnie, I'd rather not wade through ten lines of header in an embedded message ;-) And as far as TT documentation is concerned, I have asked my boss if I could post the _original_ of the flyer that Dave typed in and Dot translated, but I still get a nebulous "unh" as a reply, and I don't want to get in trouble. I've taken significant heat for some of my user-friendly posts in the recent past, so I don't want to overdo it right now. Please also see my message in the topic Dave recently starteed in this category (cat 14, topic 8, message 2). TT sound is 8 bit stereo PCM, same as STE. Basically, this is 8 bit digitized sound, but the sound processor runs independantly of the main processor, so you can do sound and use the main processor for other things. Kinda like a "sound coprocessor." Leonard likes the term "Digital Tape Player," because it can function like that, too. You can't plug DAT's or CD'sC righ:t into\ your FTT, buLt you Acan plSay digHitized\ sound* easil.y. * Allan has an affinity for techweenie terminology (so do I, at times! ;-). "Nybble mode" RAM is not shared with the video but is available directly to the CPU all the time, so access to it is much faster than the "dual-purpose" RAM that you're used to in your ST. "Burst mode" is a 68030 cache fill mode, it gets data off the bus REALLY FAST. As for specific 68030 support, you'll just have to wait and see what we have in store for you! The first TOS version that will ship on TT will probably not multitask - we're shooting for the highest degree of ST compatibility that we can attain. That's why TT TOS is _like_ Rainbow TOS (it isn't exactly Rainbow TOS though!). Software that doesn't work on a 68030, though, won't work under TT TOS. ttfn... (*ken @ atari*) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 165 Mon Sep 04, 1989 D.A.BRUMLEVE at 10:38 CDT Thanks for asking the boss, Ken. <sigh> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 166 Mon Sep 04, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 12:57 MDT Did you all know that even the Mac IIx doesn't support multitasking?? It would be nice to see Atari beat Apple to the market with a multitasking computer though. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 167 Mon Sep 04, 1989 NHARRIS [Neil] at 17:19 EDT I have a Mac II on my desk at work. Running multifinder, it multitasks just fine. Amazing to see, really -- different programs run in different windows, with the desktop visible in the background. If I click on a window, that program becomes the "foreground" one, and its menus appear on the top of the screen. I can start a download, then switch to other applications. Background printing is automatic if you want it. Slick stuff. Not perfect, but nice. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 168 Mon Sep 04, 1989 NEVIN-S at 20:10 EDT I have to agree. I to see a Multifinder clone on the ST or TT. --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 169 Mon Sep 04, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 23:10 MDT I don't want to be negative but....The TT is much slower than the NeXT (16 MHZ versus 25MHz) and it doesn't come close to Mac II resolution (256 colors from a palette of 4096 as opposed to 256 colors from 16.8million and boards are being relesed for the Mac that let you run all 16.8million colors at once (supposedly)). I for one am dissapointed-it has what I w would have expected the STE would have and the STE falls far short of what I expected for itC. Yes: the T\T pricFe/poweLr is vAery goSod andH it is\ a nic*e look.ing c*omputer (I am interestead in maybe getting one) but it just can't compete with the NeXT. Sorry to be so pesimistic-maybe you could convince me otherwise-I really would like to believe it would kill the NeXT, but my Atari loyalty is not THAT blind. Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 170 Tue Sep 05, 1989 DOUG.W at 01:36 EDT There is already a very nice MultiFinder work-alike on the ST. It's called JUGGLER. If only programmers would follow the rules, this could be a VERY VERY useable system. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 171 Tue Sep 05, 1989 TOWNS at 01:52 EDT I can't understand people.. who mentioned the NeXT machine? I certainly didn't! Sure.. a 25 MHz 68030 versus a 16 MHz 6803, the 25 MHz is going to be much faster. Big surprise there. But you are missing the point. The TT certainly won't cost 10 grand to buy. It will be MUCH cheaper. I think the ideal comparision for the TT would probably be an Macintosh SE/30 or a Macintosh IIcx. But a NeXT machine? It's in a COMPLETELY different price range than the TT. The NeXT machine is designed for people who have lots of spare cash, the TT is designed for the masses. It's designed for people who want the power of a 68030 and UNIX and who have a LIMITED budget. -- john ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 172 Tue Sep 05, 1989 PSINC at 12:02 EDT John, even a Mac IIcx is 8K. Probably would be best to compare it to the Amiga 2500. Thought I would help.;-) Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 173 Tue Sep 05, 1989 NHARRIS [Neil] at 12:14 EDT Juggler is not the same as multifinder. Juggler is more like the old Switcher, which is no longer being used. Right? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 174 Tue Sep 05, 1989 DOUG.W at 12:42 EDT Neil, I'm specifically referring to Juggler *I*, not II. Juggler I allows for multiple programs to be loaded simultaneously, and if they are proper GEM applications, all the windows will be onscreen simultaniously, and you can change applications by simply clicking on a window that is "owned" by that application. When you do that, that window comes to the foreground and that Application's menu bar will become the active one. Juggler I does dynamic memory allocation, rather than partitioning, so you don't have to set memory partition sizes. Also, if the applications call the AES as they should, background processes *can* continue to run. This is VERY MUCH like MultiFinder. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 175 Tue Sep 05, 1989 NEVIN-S at 15:07 EDT It is not like multifinder in that it slows down the system incredibly. Multifinder does not do this, not nearly as much. That is why Juggler I was so poorly received. You could have WPerfect and LDW Power up and running, and each was slower then molasses in January. Even when the not-in-use program was doing nothing (that is, even if WP was just sitting in the background, NOT doing a search/replace). Juggler I was so slow he had to come out with Juggler II or folks would have demanded their money back. If Juggler I had been fast, it would have been a big hit. --Nevin (P.S. I use Juggler II when I need a switcher on the ST). ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 176 Tue Sep 05, 1989 K.BAD [s/w engine] at 17:39 EDT Mark, Mac IIcx around 8k? TT will be significantly cheaper than that. I don't know where people keep getting the idea that TT is gonna be expensive. POWER WITHOUT THE PRICE. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 177 Tue Sep 05, 1989 C.DAYMON at 20:01 EDT I strongly agree with John, I'm quite sick of hearing people downing the TT because it doesn't measure up to the NeXT machine. More like the NeXT doesn't measure up to the ATW. (For that matter, neither does a Sun workstation.) I think the TT will do very well going head to head with the Mac II's and Mac SE/30. I don't know what the TT will cost, but I suspect it may start below $2500. (I hope, I want to buy one. Hopefully, even lower.) I wish the chip was faster and there was a 1024x768 color mode, but it still sounds like a very exciting machine. I think some people should be very carful when comparing the TT with Mac II stats and remember NOT to specify specs of 3rd party graphics boards. The TT has a VERY well established STANDARD bus that will permit the use of a great many existing hadrware add-ons that the majority of the PC market is just not familiar with because they are usually on workstations. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 178 Tue Sep 05, 1989 M.VEDERMAN2 at 19:24 CDT Nevin-s Actually (from what I know about the Mac) programs have to make a specific call to get the correct time slicing with MultiFinder, which most of the old applications don't support. Juggler II came out because Juggler I was not very compatible, *not* because it was slow (Tim and I have discussed Juggler at length). It is really a fine program that may get some resurrection on the TT (if I can talk Tim into doing an update on it). So what will the TT price be around in the US anyway? The reports from Germany indicated $5700 DM, and if I can remember the currency exchange from the last time we got deutsch mark donations, I think they are about 53 cents to the dollar. which would translate to 3K, but of course this is before the FCC costs get tacked on, and of course other 'American' price increase tariffs, etc. - mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 179 Tue Sep 05, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 19:09 MDT Does the Mac IIx have memory management?? Because if it doesn't then how can it have real multitasking?? W/O a MMU you run the risk of any singlle task crashing the whole system. But, a multitasking TT, with multiple windows running TOS and capable of exchanging data between them would be great!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 180 Tue Sep 05, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 19:11 MDT Does anyone know if the Moniterm 19" monitor will work on the TT?? It would be nice if someone who spent $2,000 on it for the Mega ST4 could use the Moniterm on the TT. Wouldn't be a waste of bucks then. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 181 Tue Sep 05, 1989 GORDON at 21:57 EDT The dm to the $$ is 1.9 to 1 that makes a 5700DM computer around $2900. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 182 Tue Sep 05, 1989 GORDON at 21:59 EDT The biggest reason for Juggler II was the fact that most programs did not use GEM properly. And, for that reason would not run under Juggler I. These are the same programs that will not run on the TT or the STE in MAX resolution. - s ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 183 Tue Sep 05, 1989 NEVIN-S at 23:16 EDT I guess everyone has their own opinion. I did a thorough review of Juggler I and even with programs that worked, I found the speed decrease unbearable. That is just my opinion of course... --Nevin Now back to the TT topic... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 184 Wed Sep 06, 1989 D.ANDERSON22 [FastTech Rep] at 00:18 EDT Actually, Gordon, at 1.9 to 1, a 5700dm machine comes out to EXACTLY $3000. -Dave ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 185 Wed Sep 06, 1989 SYNERGIST at 00:27 EDT Amazing! All this fuzz and bother over what is still a vapor machine:-) Wait until it hits your dealer shelves. Then get upset over what you on't like. You could be giving yourself fits over a machine Atari never delivers to the U.S.A. . . <<Jim>> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 186 Wed Sep 06, 1989 J.H.CARROLL at 01:51 EDT Yup, I'm one for waiting until the TT debuts before questioning its power and price. If Atari the TT ships with all that's promised (including a version that runs UNIX - seems someone mentioned that the UNIX version would ship 6 months after the basic one would) then I can't see the problem with a 68030 machine with a price tag of $3000. I mean come on guys, if you WANT multifinder and the 16.8 million colours, then run out and buy a MAC IIx. Does anyone believe for a minute that ATARI is making industry-record margins on its hardware? Jon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 187 Wed Sep 06, 1989 ICDINC at 10:39 EDT Nevin, Don't forget that the Germans pay a 14% National Sales Tax and that is usually included in the "quoted" retail price. (But not always) - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 188 Wed Sep 06, 1989 GORDON at 14:58 EDT I have posted an article that was in a English newspaper in the MichTron RT. The columnist was in Germany for the official introduction of the STE and TT and makes some very interesting comments about them and Atari. Its file #1413 in the MichTron RT.. Page 490 ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 189 Wed Sep 06, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:53 PDT I know that this is several months off, but I just got my guide in the mail yesterday. Will the TT be at Comdex thais November ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 190 Wed Sep 06, 1989 CYCLONE at 23:06 CDT When uploading text from Usenet or other sources, you may want to be aware that if you separate it from your message text with a line of dashes GSCAN will not show the rest of the message (it thinks the next message has begun). Therefore, perhaps a new delimiter would be in order - may I suggest a line of pound signs? "################" - Bill ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 191 Wed Sep 06, 1989 S.NOAH at 21:55 PDT Gordon, the article in the MichTron RT was very interesting, but from what the Atari people around here have been saying the section covering the STe isn't totaly accurate. The article states that the STe will be able to show 512 colors from a palette of 4,096, while the Atari spokespeople here have made it pretty clear that the video modes only have a larger palette, not more displayable colors. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 192 Thu Sep 07, 1989 TOWNS at 01:13 EDT Maybe they are talking about the use of Spectrum 512. Which by the way, still works on STE just fine. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 193 Thu Sep 07, 1989 PSINC [M. Sloatman] at 11:46 EDT Maybe, but that's pretty misleading unless they mention the use of Spectrum 512. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 194 Thu Sep 07, 1989 ISD at 23:27 EDT Ahmmmm...s'cuse me! ... thanks... :-) Today I saw the brochure that Atari Gmbh handed out at the Dusseldorf fair about the TT. Please tell me that the very ugly machine on the front *isn't* what the TT 030/2 will look like...please... !!!! Julius O. @ Large @ ISD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 195 Thu Sep 07, 1989 V.ALBINO at 21:00 PDT I am a big supporter of Atari. I love my ST. I have been waiting, like many others, for the debut of the new TT machine. Also, like many others, I have a lot of questions about what the new machine will or will not have. However, all of these questions pale in comparison to one, overriding question that I wish someone would answer. Why did Atari introduce TWO new machine with many of the same features at the same time? The 68030 TT is a logical upgrade with more speed, power, resolution, etc. It would have been easy for people to move to that machine from the ST. But with two machines, there is, in my opinion, inadequate differentiation in the proposed market. Some people will go to the STE, which I believe is a waste of Atari's resouces, while others go to the TT. What is a software developer supposed to write for, the STE, or the TT? Both? Have we divided and conquered ourselves? If developers aim for the lowest common denominator, i.e. the program that will run on the most machines, that means that the STE will have software that will not take advantage of the additional power of the TT. Will someone please try to make some sense of this situation for me. It appears that the marketing stategy here evades my understanding. Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 196 Fri Sep 08, 1989 TOWNS at 02:51 EDT The TT is downward compatible with ST and STE computers. Any software that is written correctly for ST should work on the TT. As for the STE, please keep in mind that the STE will replace the ST in Atari's line of computer products. I personally don't think that we are splitting the market. The machines are aimed at two distinctly different markets. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 197 Fri Sep 08, 1989 ICDINC at 07:23 EDT Julius, That is what they were showing at Dusseldorf. I think Sam and Leonard probably did get the message from the Germans that it was ugly. In my own private survey... about 100 said ugly... 1 said nice. The 1 was Gordon from Michtron. Hopefully Atari had not started tooling for it. (The cases were prototype variety foam molded.) If it does come out in that case, maybe we will have to sell an 'upgrade' case for the TT. ;-) - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 198 Fri Sep 08, 1989 PSINC [M. Sloatman] at 11:56 EDT So, Gordon was the only one, eh<grin>. John, do you have any idea on how long before Atari stops manufacture on the 1040/Mega line? How long before the STE takes their place? Thanks, Mark P.S. - Any answer yet on the STE developer info? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 199 Fri Sep 08, 1989 GORDON at 14:01 EDT Towns in reference to your message 196 are you saying that if a game is written for the ST it will run on the TT but if it is written for the STE it will not run on the TT? In other words the STE is not compatible with the TT and ST in the higher graphic modes. (naturally its not with the ST for get that) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 200 Fri Sep 08, 1989 D.MCNAMEE [Dan2@Atari] at 14:17 EDT Julius, What's wrong with it?? I think it looks neat! Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 201 Fri Sep 08, 1989 TOWNS at 17:07 EDT Gordon, Let me spell this out, to avoid the confusion... The TT is downward compatible with the STE, ST, and MEGA computers. Any software that is written for machines listed above will work on the TT. Assuming that it is written properly and designed with the 68030 in mind. The STE is downward compatible with the ST and MEGA computers. Any software that is written for machines listed above will work on the STE (this means the ST and MEGA machines). ...As for the case, well.. I think its interesting. I have heard a number of comments from people who didn't like it or weren't impressed. I think Tom is right.. I think Sam and Leonard got that message as well. As for STE production vs. MEGA production.. I don't know. I don't have anything to do with the manufacturing side of the business. STE Developers Documentation: Making progress.. give me alittle bit more time. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 202 Fri Sep 08, 1989 ISD at 19:40 EDT What's wrong with it? Well, it ain't pretty thats for sure. It looks like someone slapped a Mega and small SH204 on plastic base and decided to call it a TT. One of the things the TT will need to enjoy success is appearance. What I saw did not look very professional or business like - it looked more like a toy computer instead of a 32 bit 16 Mhz near-workstation class machine that it is. Have a gander at the Sun SPARCstation, or the newer COMPAQ styling (now *those* looks sharp!). It needs to look sexy, sharp, and "I mean business!". Just the opinion of a humble programmer... :-) Julius O. @ Large @ ISD ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 203 Fri Sep 08, 1989 M.MCCANN2 at 20:06 EDT I have a question regarding TT and/or the STE - it was stated somewhere that the reason the STE has built in Genlock is a new Shifter chip (if I recall right). And that also gives the 4096 colors. Any way to retrofit that chip, or any of those other upgrades, to older STs? After all, latest 520/1040s can accept a Blitter chip while earlier ones would not w/o hacking the hardware. I am curious as to what is the hardware that permits this "hardware assisted fine scrolling" (is this the blitter?? or what?) and the 8 bit PCM audio (Amy??? [Nah]). Thanx for ANY info... [Or, in German, "Wie gehts???"] ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 204 Fri Sep 08, 1989 D.ENGEL at 20:20 EDT I left a message asking about the sound a few days ago. I also stated possible upgrade routes for ST/Mega owners. However, "Hardware Assisted fine scrolling" can only mean that the new shifter allows for the screen address to reside on any word boundary, and that provisions have been made for pixel offsets to be made. Combine these two features, and viola: fine scrolling! (This is only a guess, but it's as much as ANY programmer could hope for) How are the TT/030 developer docs coming???????? Also, what exactly is the definition of 'Genlock' in the EST? Is it like the 'stereo capable' TVs and VCRs of a few years back which advertised 'Stereo Capable' but neglected to mention you had to buy a separate decoder to use this 'feature'. When you say 'genlock' I want to be able to plug my VCR in one jack and my Monitor into another, and play the vcr to the monitor with computer graphics simultaneously. Any extra hardware needed would be misleading.... Fianlly, can the TT do the same 'Genlock'??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 205 Fri Sep 08, 1989 DOUG.W at 23:11 EDT The STE does *NOT* have a GENlock built-in. It was designed so that a low- cost GENlock could be added EXTERNALLY, with NO internal modifications. Your assumptions about scrolling are correct. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 206 Sat Sep 09, 1989 C.DAYMON at 00:32 EDT Personally, I've seen PLENTY of Sun workstations and I think the keyboard makes a Mega keyboard look EXTREMELY sexy. It may be functionally better, but it looks like it was cut from a block of stone! Not very stylish at all! I don't think the Sparc station looks all so great either. Basically like a Mega with a bunch of blemishes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 207 Sat Sep 09, 1989 DAVESMALL at 01:03 EDT The Mac machines with 68030 have an MMU -- inside the 030. The 020 machines can be fitted with an MMU; it's a prerequisite to installing A/UX. As for true multitasking without MMU, while it isn't Completely Perfect, heck, the Amiga seems to do pretty well. (Please, no religious wars..) I think the mix of UNIX and ST is going to be extremely interesting. Unleashing the power of the UNIX toolkit on ST developers should give them access to a world of tools they've never had, which integrate well, which will greatly speed development and debugging of ST applications. I've not seen anyone mention this yet, but it may one key selling point to the TT / Unix -- a sort of ultimate (for now) ST development engine. And mind you, I'm far from being called a UNIX devotee. But the shards of UNIX that have made it to the ST have usually been pretty popular. And do I ever need 16 mhz, preferably of no wait state ram, during assemblies. My opinion? I hope and wish Atari will bring a TT or TTWO to the WAACE show next month and "debut" them just for ST owners here. It would not be a major logistical problem -- like, two suitcases? -- can precede Calmdex without causing problems, and would give American owners a feeling of encouragement. Cheap when the price is the loan of two machines over one weekend. Tell you what, Atari ... I'm under nondisclosure and all that. I'll offer to personally pick up the costs of hand-carrying a TT from your offices, to the WAACE show, watch it like a hawk there, and get it back to you -- *no cost to you whatsoever* -- if you'll just hand me one Friday and expect it back Monday. -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets by Small ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 208 Sat Sep 09, 1989 S.NOAH at 00:45 PDT Interesting blurb on the back page of the "Info-worlquirer". They say that the TT will be the least expensive 68030 machine, of course they also have the price pegged at about $1,500 ( about half of what I've read here on Genie ). I wish that they were correct, but, like so much else they say, I don't beleive it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 209 Sat Sep 09, 1989 SLP at 07:49 EDT The $3000 price passed around here was for a complete system with hard drive, color monitor, and VAT. The $1500 price was just for the system unit with one floppy and keyboard. I bet the price will be higher, but if it comes in around $2,000 you'll here most of the complaining around here stop. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 210 Sat Sep 09, 1989 D.ENGEL at 08:49 EDT About the EST... I hope that someone makes it clear that Genlock is not built into the computer. The info going around now is somewhat unclear on that point, and I see ST users talking about the 'built-in' Genlock on some local BBSs. Just trying to nip a potentially dissappointing rumor in the bud. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 211 Sun Sep 10, 1989 DERRICK at 06:52 EDT Dave, keep dreaming. THose TTs are for the Germanys like everything else. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 213 Sun Sep 10, 1989 DERRICK at 06:57 EDT Dave, keep dreaming. Those TTs are for the GERMANS like everything else. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 214 Sun Sep 10, 1989 JEFF.W [RTC Sysop] at 13:55 EDT Atari has been making it VERY clear that there is no genlock in the STE. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 215 Sun Sep 10, 1989 TOWNS at 14:21 EDT Dave, Interesting concept.. I will pass along your message. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 216 Sun Sep 10, 1989 V.ALBINO at 12:09 PDT It was stated that the STE and TT are intended for two entirely different markets. I believe this same statement was made when the Mega ST's were first released. Yet, most people aspired to Mega ownership as a natural upgrade path. Now, there will be TWO different paths one can choose if he wishes to upgrade his ST system. He could go to a STE or a TT. If I were a developer, I would be interested in writing for the largest possible user base. It would seem, therefore, that people will write for the STE knowing that it may run on the TT, but who is going to write for the TT--using its special abilities--when that software will not function on the lower priced STE? I still believe that Atari has "split the market," and this bothers me. I still want to know why different versions of the TT are not being produced to take care of the STE buyers rather than bringing out yet another 16 bit computer based on the 68000. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 217 Mon Sep 11, 1989 J.H.CARROLL at 18:42 EDT It seems real simple to me... the *TT* is the upgrade path from the ST. I don't know about anyone else but fine scrolling, improved sound and quasi- Genlock hardware (hehehe my trademark term) just aren't enough to have me running out to sell my old ST. Quite simply, (as Towns said) the STE will replace the ST line... In other words the consumers buying an ST for the first time will buy an STE. REAL upgrade paths involve more speed, more power etc and the TT is the way to go. I really don't see any evidence of "market splitting". Jon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 218 Wed Sep 13, 1989 TOWNS at 00:30 EDT Finally.. a message I can agree with. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 219 Wed Sep 13, 1989 M.MURPHREE at 19:04 EDT An open letter to Atari: The introduction of the TT comes at a time when I have been considering an upgrade. As an engineer (EE), I need a system with superior speed and display capabilities, plus expansion capability (at the very minimum access to the system bus). I expect this computer to used for current work activities, hobby use, development use, and possible private business use later. I have owned Atari products since 1978, and of course are considering the Atari TT for a future purchase. There are few things that will effect my decision though: 1. Packaging, internal expansion capabilities. Let's face it guys the day of the console computer is gone. The Atari 400,800; C64, VIC20 etc. were cute at the time, but there is no excuse for it anymore. I wouldn't begin to pay the price a Mega commands with the cheap housing it is in. Likewise, if the stories about the TT case are true, forget it I will buy something else. 2. Expandibility. Current rumours have that there is only one expansion slot in the TT. This is barely acceptable, if the slot must be used for expansion of the memory (preventing any other additions then it is NOT acceptable. 3. Product support. If the TT does not have adequate product support for a machine of this caliber, then it will not survive against its many competitors. 4. Delivery schedules. If the TT doesn't make it to the market in a reasonable time frame (please, no more escapades like TOS 1.4), then another manufacturer's machine will be acquired. Atari still has some loyal customers around, but that loyalty has been stretched to the limits, guys... Still waiting... Mike Murphree ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 220 Wed Sep 13, 1989 S.NOAH at 20:11 PDT About the TT only having one expansion slot, somebody correct me if I am wrong, but can't you attach an expansion chasis to the VME bus ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 221 Wed Sep 13, 1989 CAPT.COOK at 23:56 EDT Mike - Seems to me, it's kinda late for that message now. Hope it all works out for you, though. -CC ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 222 Wed Sep 13, 1989 WHITESTR at 21:05 PDT The upgrading of the ST to the STE strikes me as a brilliant last minute marketing move. Kinda jabs *all* serious ST users into upgrading to a new machine, while still supporting third party developers such as the Genlock/4096 JRI man. Surely its obvious by now that the TT is *the* next wave in home computing power. The only thing that really seems to be getting into STers way from cognizing this is the perpetrated idea that the TT is not going to be *CHEAP*! Those who believe that no one is going to develop specifically for the TT are a bit behind the times, me thinks. Personally, I don't doubt for a second that solid, reasonably priced color boards will be out for the TT soon after its release. Furthermore, I do not think that S.Tramiel has any intention of dragging out US consumers in any way similiar to the 'old' ST days. Just call me psychic...(:) Dai Le'on--Whitestar Mageware ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 223 Thu Sep 14, 1989 JEFF.W [RTC Sysop] at 00:42 EDT Thanks to K.BAD, we now have the original English text of the TT flyers handed out at the Dusseldorf Atari Fair. It is THE_TT.TXT (file #12108) in Library 14. Thanks, Ken! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 224 Wed Sep 13, 1989 S.NOAH at 22:41 PDT I was just thinking ( it somtimes gets a bit dangerous when I do that ), since the TT is so much faster than the ST, could it support a screen postscript driver through GDOS. I remember that my early version of Touch-up came wit its own screen driver which which displayed a set of outline fonts. Does this sound like it might work ? Is GDOS on the TT the same as GDOS on the ST ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 225 Thu Sep 14, 1989 GW.MILLER at 09:02 EDT I had the chance to play with a TT a few months ago. At that time I was promised that Developers versions would be available in AUgust. (In my excitement over the raw speed of this beast, I did neglect to determine August of what year.) After the horrendous marketing strategy of the ST, I'll have to wait until the STE and TT's are really in stores available to the general public before I get excited. On the other hand, it's only 8 months 'til June when the STACY will be available in quantity. I heard a rumor that the Lynx will only be available in NYC and LA this Christmas, and my questions about the Portfolio have been greeted by wild laughter, On the other hand, the Sharp is looking better and better. BTW, I put my name on the list as a Portfolio developer several weeks ago, and still haven't heard a word from Atari. Guess I'll just be conservative on this one. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 226 Thu Sep 14, 1989 TOWNS at 17:20 EDT George, Who did you contact at Atari regarding becoming a developer for Portfolio? Where are these questions that have been greeted by wild laughter ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 227 Fri Sep 15, 1989 GW.MILLER at 09:09 EDT Contact Gail Johnson about Developer Info. SInce MichTron stuck loyally with the ST through the years, I thought we might experience some return from the Portfolio. Wild laughter? Every idea I come up with that depends on Atari delivering a product to the market in quantity. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 228 Fri Sep 15, 1989 M.VEDERMAN2 at 19:04 CDT I heard from a store in town (this is off subject...) that the portfolio was 'in the warehouse' and will be shipping to the 'top 25' retail store in the US. One in Houston included... - mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 230 Fri Sep 15, 1989 BSTONE at 22:10 EDT Is it true that only 25 dealers will get the portfolio??? I have heard a that Atari had only 200 dealers and that half of them were Midi dealers. Now that means that 75 dealers will not get any portfolios!! I know that if I was one of the 75 shorted I would no longer be an Atari dealer!! I wonder when Atari is going to learn that it needs its dealers a lot more then the dealers need them? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 231 Sat Sep 16, 1989 V.ALBINO at 10:06 PDT Does ANYONE know what the real shipping date of the TT is supposed to be? The only thing official that I've heard is..."before the end of the year." The Christmas season is almost here. Will the TT be able to take advantage of that time of the year when most of the computer systems are sold, or will it arrive too late? Just wondering. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 232 Sat Sep 16, 1989 TOWNS at 13:37 EDT No release date has been announced. When we are ready for release, we will post here. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 233 Sun Sep 17, 1989 S.NOAH at 00:34 PDT Just curious, everything that I've read about the TT states that it has 512K of ROM, what is going on in all that extra space ? Is this something that we should look forward to ? Can anyone say anything about this ? No ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 234 Sun Sep 17, 1989 M.MURPHREE at 04:12 EDT In Mr. Tramiel's CO, he mentioned that the TT would be released by the end of the year. He neglected to mention in what country. I did notice their was no Atari response to my earlier concerns and comments. I interpret this as another unofficial Atari "No Comment...". A side question, has anyone attempted to run the current version of pc ditto on the TT? With the speed of the 16 Mhz 68030, the emulator should be able to run at a reasonable speed, if compatibility has been maintained. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 235 Sun Sep 17, 1989 DAVESMALL at 15:30 EDT There's a lot of IFs there. Bill had to pull major magic to get the Ditto up to its current speed -- he approached the theoretical limit of what is *possible* -- and the 68000 and 68030 machines are different enough in places it could trip things up. Even common stuff like MOVE SR,blah in user mode now chokes. But knowing Bill, he's probably moved it to another 030 platform and checked it out. He's pretty sharp. Atari: Am I now allowed to ask specific TT questions, bearing in mind that I'm under nondisclosure, since it is now an announced product? Actually, Allan's USENET posts tell me a great deal. -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 236 Sun Sep 17, 1989 TOWNS at 19:47 EDT Sure, Dave.. ask away. If we can answer them, we will. Mike, what was your question? I don't remember missing one.. If so, ask again. Maybe I can answer it this time! :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 237 Sun Sep 17, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 22:46 EDT Hi folks Towns why hasn't Gadgets and Avantgarde been sent TT's? They have the two products that give the most attraction to NEW buyers and they also need the most lead time. It's only in Ataris best interests!!!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 238 Mon Sep 18, 1989 GW.MILLER at 09:27 EDT What about MichTron? We have the MOST products for the ST and have been here the longest. Of course, during a recent phone call to Atari I did have to explain that Yes, MichTron did produce software for the ST. Seems the person had never heard of us. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 239 Mon Sep 18, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 11:08 EDT Sorry Gordon, but you are an ST developer and since you already obey the rules on the ST your almost done before you start, it's the emulator guys, especially Bill with HW, that need the most lead time to get there stuff over. AND MAC AND IBM compatibility are I think the most important attributes of the ST in the eyes of NEW buyers!!! So it's in ALL our best interests to slip Dave and Bill a TT each!!!! BTW TEMPUSII is the cats meow!!!! Thanks for bringing it to us. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 240 Mon Sep 18, 1989 PSINC at 12:16 EDT I disagree Jim, people do not purchase a computer because it can emulate a PC (maybe a Mac, because of the price difference). While Spectre 128 and Pc Ditto are important products, we probably sell more Mouse Masters each month in the US than they do. People want a computer system to fill their needs with the existing software and hardware. Emulation is a nice extra. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 242 Mon Sep 18, 1989 GORDON at 20:35 EDT Jim did you buy your atari to get a PC or a Mac??? Nuff said... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 243 Mon Sep 18, 1989 D.ANDERSON22 [FastTech Rep] at 23:45 EDT The point is made, Jim. You're undoubtedly right in that HW guys like Bill and Dave, and even Mark (PS) and John Russell have the longest lead time, but it only makes sense to give some level of support to the guys like Gordon, and Nathan, and you, and Dan & Rick, and Liz & Kevin, and who-all else is out there busting their caps to support Atari, as well. Get the machines to the developers, to get the development started. -Dave ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 244 Mon Sep 18, 1989 TLMAY at 20:55 PDT Mark... "We probably sell more Mouse Masters each month in the US than they [Avant Garde and Gadgets] do." I didn't know Avant Garde and Gadgets by Small sold Mouse Masters! <grin> (Sorry, Mark, I couldn't help myself!) I have a solution: Send TT's to MichTron, Avant Garde, Gadgets by Small, Practical Solutions, CodeHead Software . . . and TERRY MAY! ...TERRY MAY! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 245 Mon Sep 18, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 23:57 EDT Gordon....to get a MAC. Actually not the way you think though since I bought my 1040 "BD-Before Dave" back in late 85'. I bought it because I wanted a 68000 system and couldn't afford $3000 for a MAC 128K. Gordon ther are 35 million PCs and 'bout 6 million Macs so I "THINK" people buy computers for PC and MAC applications don't you? What I said was a MAJOR selling point for the ST is that it provides Mac AND PC compatibility as well as some great SW and features of its own. Where else can you say that at ANY reasonable price. You can put a PC in your Mac, but PCDII will be faster than the Mac PC addons, and you can't by a Mac emulator for the PC anywhere! So IF you put on your dealer hat and face the facts that to be a Mac dealer it will cost you more up front than becoming an ST dealer, and the same goes for BRAND name PCs. And IF you sat back and thought about how much easier it will be selling STs if you can say with a straight face...It's Mac AND PC compatible...you might have a chance to make some money here. The ST can be a vehicle to bring BOTH Mac and PC compatibility to the personal computer user, as well as some nice stuff on its own. And it can do this at a very reasonable price! BUT, selling the ST without these things leads to it eventually shrinking to the level of a curiousity! I would rather throw in with full compatibility set since it has a better chance for long term success. It's not like this is an insult, the STs most unique feature is it's compatibility, and with PC speed addressed and Mac Clonehood just around the corner (TT is Appletalk ready!!!) it could be the BEST computer a person could buy!!!! So it is in Ataris best interest to get a TT to both Dave and Bill <period>. All the ST SW developers will have an easier time of it fixing incompatabilities so the earliest units should go to them!!!! And BTW Apple DOES NOT CHARGE it's most important developers for new CPUs, like when the MACII came out. Microsoft and others got free units, prototypes even, so they would have SW ready by the time the thing was announced let alone shipping. The "rest" of the developers got units after that and they paid for them. Hey, JRI got a TT before any of us knew one existed!!!! Now that's early. So Mark I (as always) think I'm right. Jim <one mans opinion> Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 246 Tue Sep 19, 1989 TOWNS at 00:24 EDT According to the information I have, JRI does not nor have they ever had a TT prototype machine. This is a false rumor. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 247 Tue Sep 19, 1989 DOUG.W at 07:37 EDT Even if Atari can't get machines to developers, some technical documentation would be a *BIG* help! This would give developers some time to work out solutions to any problems they might have (replacing timing loops, add support for additional graphics modes, support multiple serial ports, etc.) As it stands, the developers will be able to *start* work when the machine is released, which is *MUCH* too late! --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 248 Tue Sep 19, 1989 PSINC at 10:53 EDT Jim, i think you're letting your personal preferences get in the way of what you think _other_ people want. The machines should be made available to all developers. I could make a case for any developer specifically (including us). The fact is that emulator developers are not the _most_ important developers, I think Doug and Dave would agree on that (and Bill too). Besides, Atari will say it's PC and Mac compatible with third party solutions anyway.;-) Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 249 Tue Sep 19, 1989 GORDON at 11:11 EDT A quote from a magazine.. The fact is the Poquet seems to be the only small scale computer backed by a true software strategy. We get a stone sense that Poquets founders much more then other small scale hardware venders understand the key role that software plays in determining whether a new machine files or flops. For the moment Poquets software evangelism effort has focused on lining up a small but carefully chosen suite of app- lications Lotus, Word Perfect, XYright, ACT, agenda, ALphaworks and a few others. That legitimize the Poquet as a mobile desktop. Compare this to Atari.. To the best of my knowledge not one developer in the US has a portfolio.. Not one developer has even the specs or information sheet on the computer. Yet they are shipping the computer. I have not even been offered the oportunity to purchase one at any price. The TT.. who knows it is months away.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 250 Tue Sep 19, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 12:34 EDT Mark...you're right, what I meant is really history anyway. When Atari had only a few protos (you know..like last april) they should of place some at STRATEGIC developer locations. NOW they damn well should get'em to ALL developers, and at COST!!!! NOW!!! And where the hell is the INFO, like what's the system variable that tells the application of processor type? Is Big A going to wait until AFTER comdex to tell certain people? So I will drop the subject Mark...you win. John(Atari) I guess I was misinformed, BUT considering the ratio of my being misinformed to YOUR being misinformed I think you should believe what you hear on GEnie BEFORE you trust what is told to you from INSIDE the company! Maybe John Russell didn't get a unit early, BUT I DOUBT IT considering my source. And it does make sense since the genlock function is needed to give good demos of the TTs abilities, and Atari has exibited a lack of understanding as to HOW to do genlock right. You must learn how to seperate the wheat from the chaff. -Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 251 Tue Sep 19, 1989 NEVIN-S at 13:03 EDT Yes, it is amazing that the TT is not available to developers now if it is so close to shipping. Of course the logical deductino (oops, deduction) is that it is NOT close to shipping at all. Oh well... --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 252 Tue Sep 19, 1989 J.MEEHAN3 at 22:43 EDT ALLEN.. I did not buy my Mazda RX7 because it was compatible with a FORD, but it was nice to know that it used the same fuel. The ST is saleable on it own, but I agree that it is best to sell all it's best points. The salesman should know his customers. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 253 Wed Sep 20, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 00:36 EDT J.MEEHAN3...you're right, but I did buy my Corvette knowing that most reasonable upgrades to the engine, etc. would be retrofittable. Like the 89 Z51 brakes, and the roller lifters, and the aluminum heads, and the better alignment specs (kinda like TurboST in it's effect), etc, etc....thtas a stab at the STE. And it uses the same small block chevy engine thats been around for 30 years...it's\ compatible! the point is be compatible with what is important, and both PC and Mac stuff is important. I have talked to dealers that don't understand enough about Spectre so they don't carry it. They are missing an opportunity just like Atari does when not facilitating certain things in the world. Atari simply does not orchestrate marketing policies and advantages as well as they could. We all suffer for it. Right on Nevin -Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 254 Wed Sep 20, 1989 CYCLONE at 00:01 CDT Hey, here's a thought - perhaps what with Atari's newly-found ability to "keep a secret", perhaps ALL the developers already have TT's, but they are just pretending to be disgruntled so we'll all be totally surprised when the machine comes out with TONS of software!! - Bill (slightly optimistic this evening) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 255 Wed Sep 20, 1989 BREHBOCK at 01:15 CDT Yea, that's the ticket! All the developers _do_ have TT's! ...And they were all supplied by Atari for _free_! ...yea...And it's really a 25Mhz machine... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 256 Wed Sep 20, 1989 PSINC at 02:49 EDT Ok with me Jim, let's just pick on Towns<grin>. Seriously, if Atari wanted to support key developers (ourselves included) ;- ) They wouldn't have to spend much. There must only be a dozen or so. We bought a IIx at half off list, _before_ the stores had it. And we have info on System 7 _now_. Atari should really get it together! I think that JRI had a STE, not a TT, but same thing. We still don't have full specs on it. Mark PS - Cyclone, you're wrong. Atari PAID the developers to take TT's, that's why we've been so quiet!;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 257 Wed Sep 20, 1989 TLMAY at 01:39 PDT Mark... You've just described a good reason WHY Atari only has a dozen or so key developers. If they supported their developers better (not to mention their USER BASE), I guarantee you there'd be more than a dozen... ...Terry ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 258 Wed Sep 20, 1989 GORDON at 09:59 EDT Aw common.. Atari supports us.. We got Towns on GEnie what else could we want. :-) We called Atari yesterday and were told the developer information for the portfolio would be out "any day now" and that we could purchase one for $399 and they gave us the 800 phone number. I can get a Sharp WIzard for $199. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 259 Wed Sep 20, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 10:38 EDT Right on Mark, Iconfess I have a TT...... .....in my dreams! -Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 260 Wed Sep 20, 1989 PSINC at 10:58 EDT Really Jim? I thought you got the '040 machine.;-) And you're right Terry... Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 261 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 17:14 EDT Come on guys.........have you noticed how many messages John Townsend has replied to in this area??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 262 Wed Sep 20, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 17:42 EDT Hi Darlah, we are just looking for the REAL DOPE ont the TT, you know stuff thats important. The Atari dev area is about as informative on this subject as this is. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 263 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 19:02 EDT Hi there.....................;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 264 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DERRICK at 19:09 EDT All you guys that want a TT, MOVE TO GERMANY! ATARI, have you ever consider moving your headquarters to Germany? I mean since you guys are sending everything over there, you might as well. Also what happen to the advertisement for the Portfolio? It is shipping right? This year will be your make or break year! 3 pass by already and I've yet to see any real support. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 265 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 19:11 EDT They are advertising the Portfolio....... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 266 Wed Sep 20, 1989 DERRICK at 20:04 EDT DARLAH, they are advertising where, on the Atari Corp. billboard? see ya. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 267 Wed Sep 20, 1989 MRAYMOND at 22:22 CDT Wait - I came to the Atari is err... a 68030--- no, wait a 68050 - yea that's the ticket and the developers here are complaining... er well because they don't have information on the chip, and it compiles too fast for them to see the resultsnad a each machine is shipped - no a arrives hand delivered by Sam - uh no Morgan Fairchild... That's why their busy, yea. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 268 Wed Sep 20, 1989 CAPT.COOK at 23:42 EDT Derrick - Maybe the Atari Corp biiboard, but also the Wall Street Journal. (The cynicism in here is starting to choke me -- to the point I can't even spell) -CC Q: What's the world's most thankless job? A: Atari on-line representative. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 269 Wed Sep 20, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 23:46 EDT It's also a pretty demanding job...lots of questions, questions, questions... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 270 Fri Sep 22, 1989 M.MURPHREE at 00:47 EDT John, I believe its too late to resurrect the entirety of my original questions and concerns. The main focus of it was for Atari to please realize that consumers are very tired of the "toy" computers that have been produced in the past, that do not lend themselves to being expanded or used in a professional environment. The TT should break new ground for Atari and show the world that they can produce a professional system. For my own use, considering the speed the TT should have, it would be very desirable if through some software or hardware means it will be able to run PC software at least at the speed of a low end AT if possible. This will greatly increase the amount of software that can be run on the machine. Would have replied sooner but software development stops for no one.... Over 2 meg of source code and still not done! Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 271 Thu Sep 21, 1989 S.NOAH at 23:56 PDT What will be the configuration of the VME slot on the TT ? I know that it is only supposed to have one VME/DIN connector, but will it allow full height one connector cards to be added to the system ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 272 Fri Sep 22, 1989 D.ANDERSON22 [FastTech Rep] at 18:17 EDT From what's been bandied about here and there, it is my impression that the TT's slot is configured for "Eurocard" VMEs. -Dave ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 273 Sat Sep 23, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 00:50 EDT Yeah, but REAL eurocard is a 6U card meaning 2 96pin DIN connectors. Thats what is so puzzling, the second connector has the upper 16 data bits to form a 32 bit bus? Watch Atari invent a ASCI type VME bus!!!! That will need a VME host adapter card to somehow propietarize the bus. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 274 Sat Sep 23, 1989 BREHBOCK at 02:25 CDT John, are these bus answers on the don't talk-about-it list? I know it seems silly, but is there any chance of posting an .IMG file or two of the TT's that were over at the Dussledorf (sp?) show? I think it would make for a couple happy campers here and there. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 275 Sat Sep 23, 1989 MAS2743 at 14:04 CDT Gee - I haven't read this 230 messages in this topic yet! It sure sounds verrrry intereesting to read them tonight. ...but uh, oh, here is the bad news... Is it true that Atari President Sam Tramiel said that he hopes TT will clobber NeXT and Mac II computer? Well, here is the news I read about in the INFOWorld magazine April, 1989 (?). Title: Mac II Programs Run Faster on Non-Apple Workstation Author: Laurie Flynn Sixty-Eight Thousand Inc. (so-called 68000 Inc), released earlier this month a 68030-based workstation that the company says runs Mac software at several times the speed of a Macintosh II. The vendor inserts a Mac II motherboard into a floor-standing case, and then swaps in a 32-Mhz Motorola 68030 microprocessor. The company then accelerates the system's performance with the addition of the Pronto SCSI accelerator from Golden Triangle, a math coprocessor, and a high-speed RAM cache. The $15,000 machine includes 5 NuBus slots and comes with a licensed version of the Macintosh system software. The strategy of swapping a Mac motherboard into a non-Apple case is one already followed by Colby Systems, which markets a line of Mac-clone laptop computers. Jim Takatsuka, an Apple VAR account executive, said that while the business issues of such a strategy may be unresolved in the case of some companies, no legal problems exist. The base system includes the 68882 math coprocessor, RAM cache, Pronto accelerator, 4 megabytes of RAM, and a 180-megabyte hard disk. Options (look at that Atari!) includes a RISC microprocessor (Motorola 88000), a LISP engine (for Artificial Intelligence application), and a Digital Signal Processor (just like NeXT computer has), as well as an Ethernet card and high-capacity WORM drive. According to Sixty-Eight Thousand president Robert Meyer, most of his customers are interested in simply running their Mac II applications faster, rather than using the 68030-based workstation as a high-speed RISC or parallel processing engine. It is the matter of their choice. Sixty-Eight Thousand Inc. 26346 Carmel Rancho Lane Carmel, CA 93923; (408) 626- 1711 (tell them I sent you) Now, if you wish, will that KILL, SQUASH, FLAP, OVERTHROW, ZAP, etc the Atari new TT workstation? Remember, TT doesn't have most of the options as mentioned above except for the VME card(s). Of course, Im a bit worry about this kind of threat for Atari. I still like the TT price but TT lacks some of the performance or options. I don't know if it will be possible for TT to catch up with those kinds of bell-whistle. OR is it that Sixty-Eight Thousand Inc. trying to deny the TT's existence or trying to scare Atari? Towns, what do you think of it? Any comments? Your informative friend, Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 276 Sat Sep 23, 1989 BREHBOCK at 17:29 CDT Mike, there's no comparison between the two machines. You can buy an ATW for the prices you're throwing around. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 277 Sat Sep 23, 1989 A.FRIESEN at 21:10 MDT No you can't! As far as I know the ATW is at least a year away! Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 278 Sun Sep 24, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 00:03 EDT Don't forget the transputers in the ATW are geared toward image processing and other highly parrallelizable things, an accelerated ...33Mhz, 128K cache, etc...030 Mac II will kick the ATWs ass in ordinary desktop publishing activities, only in highly tuned graphics activities...like renderman...can the transputers shine. The ATW is nobody but Lucasfilms' desktop solution, that's why you see all the transputers being used for digital video graphics type applications...because the suck at the day to day activities of an ordinary office environment. ATWs exist but so what, big deal we need a killer TT. Anybody can have the equivalent of what 68000 Inc...boy is that conseeded...is doing by buying the $5000 33Mhz 030 accelerator with cache the daystar or siclone are selling for the Mac IIs. The equivalent can be built for the TT too. So a killer TT is only as far away as the TTs delivery date. When is that JOHN? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 279 Sun Sep 24, 1989 PSINC at 11:21 EDT Absolutely Jim. Transputers are _not_ suited for "regular" applications. In November Apple will release the 25 mhz IIci, and in Febuary the _50mhz_ one! But they have not been just increasing processing speed, the new models fully support multitasking and virtual memory. Also the prices are coming down, and they're putting video and Ethernet on the motherboard. Atari had better get with it! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 280 Sun Sep 24, 1989 M.LEDFORD at 16:15 EDT An Open Letter to Atari: This is being written just to get a load off my mind, but I hope in a way that will be taken as constructive. First, just to let you know that I am not a non-Atarian, I bought my first Atari ST (1040) back in '86, coming from a Radio Shack TRS 80. I now own a MegaST2 upgraded to 4 megs, which I use for publishing a couple different newsletters. I also own a DeskJet, Migraph hand scanner/Touch-Up, a mono and a color monitor. I am the secretary of our local Atari ST user group, and have been with this group since its inception. I find, along with many, many other loyal Atarians, that I struggle with a love/hate relationship with Atari. I don't think that many other companies that make other types of computers have as loyal a following (with the exception, I think, of Amiga owners) as you do. But it seems to me that you, out of ignorance or otherwise, end up giving us the cold shoulder. I am referring to the lack of support that I have seen, both here on this BBS, and with my local dealer. Now I know that you have said that this is going to change, and perhaps you are making a sincere effort in this direction. But I am brought back to reality when I read the on-line talk here in the support areas. What I am referring to specifically is the total lack of news regarding the new computers that were (so long in being) announced. Not only are there no updates on the new machines, there doesn't seem to be ANY information going out to any of the developers. You kept us in suspense for many months with your policy of not announcing anything before it was close to being shipped, then after bringing out the new STE and TT, you clamped the lid on the whole news outlet again! (Now I am in agreement with you on waiting for products to be close to shipping before making the announcements and whipping up the fanfare, but to deliberately throw cold water on the new spark of interest doesn't make sense to me.) I watched with interest when the Stacy was announced, knowing that this would be a knockout if gotten to the market. What with all those people out there who wanted a laptop Macintosh, this would have made the sales of that computer sweet indeed! But as of this point in time, there still is no Stacy. Now I have seen the advertisements for the laptop Macintosh, which will suck away sales from Stacy. I am very interested in the TT because of the advances that it will give to users, and the extreme competition it will bring to other computer lines. But I am afraid that there will not be any soon release of this machine. Too bad. It makes it hard to root for you. The ST/TT line of machines are so good when compared to all the others on the market, but the support for them just isn't there! Please!! Please!! Get some people that can get the information out, that can get machines into the hands of the developers, that can answer at least some of the questions that come up here in this area (or are at least allowed to answer). For myself, I am considering upgrading to the TT, but the total lack of information of how things are going is really depressing. Please cheer us all up with some crumbs from your table!! Sincerely, _|_ Mike | ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 281 Sun Sep 24, 1989 C.DAYMON at 17:05 EDT Aric, I DOUBT that your statement about ATW availability holds. Considering the TT has yet to be released and the ATW is shipping to all the appropriate places for a machine with an achitecture that is not well understood by most. The british magazines report that every ATW they can make is being sold to universities and developers. Usually configured to price in at about $40,000. (Extra Transputers and RAM.) These are the ideal places to send a new and innovative machine. Considering the advantage of an on-chip math coprocessor and RISC processing, I think even 1 20MHz transputer could give a 33MHz 68030 a pretty fair run for its money. Again, the 68030 is a well understood chip and top applications should appear almost immediately, but I think these will be pale in comparison to the applications for the ATW 2-3 years from now. (Reflect back on the CRAP that was available for the ST 3 years ago and the 68000 was rather well understood then.) In the defense of the TT, I think it would be key to remember that the Commodore 64 has outsold any other single computer to date. (Or at least until very recently.) It certainly wasn't because it could outrun all the competition, but probably because it offered the best dollar value. The Atari 8-bits could outperform it graphically and in processing speed. This is possibly rumor, but I read where Atari has adopted the multitasking system developed by Intelligent Music for future STs. I haven't seen this operating system or read anything about it, but if this is true, it will mean multitasking for the STs. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 282 Sun Sep 24, 1989 BREHBOCK at 16:36 CDT Mike Ledford: I LIKE YOUR LETTER!!! I think it just might be a good idea for EVERYONE to capture it, adjust or delete the equipment specifications to his/her needs and mail copies to Sam Tramiel, Jim Fisher, Leonard Tramiel, Antonio Salerno, and Sig Hartmann at : Atari Corporation 1196 Borregas Avenue Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Something has to happen soon! There are a lot of Users, Developers, Dealers, and maybe even employees that are very frustrated with the way things are currently being handled. I can't help but feel that Sam and friends have to really care deep down inside, but it must be getting badly misdirected somewhere along the line. Something has to give! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 283 Sun Sep 24, 1989 GORDON at 19:13 EDT Way to go Mike.. Only problem is that Jack and Sam dont read the messages on here. Why not mail it to them.. Atari Corp 1196 Borregas Ave Sunnyvale, Ca 94088 I think everyone should write and tell Atari what you think of their dealer and developer support. About all the new hardware we have seen in the past 3 years. Tell them what you think... I think Sam and Jack need to see an outpouring of opinions. Atari has never advertised in the US. All of their computers were sold because people like you and me told our friends to buy them. I think Atari is losing this. Would you recommend a friend to buy an ST??? or would you tell them to wait for an STE...or wait for a TT or buy something else??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 284 Sun Sep 24, 1989 J.H.CARROLL at 21:57 EDT Its unfortunate that the case history of the Commodore 64 keeps coming back to haunt us because that's probably some of the very essence of the trouble at Atari. Fact is palin and simple : the 64 did well years ago when people who bought computers did so with very different criteria in mind. Price today plays a very small part in many people's computer buying habits. They want a computer that will run the same kind or quality of pro programs that they're using at work. They want something that has a large software base for it with plenty of user support. People are smarter today. Even if a 68030 system is available, they're going to think twice if it doesn't have a suitable number of slots (and *1* slot isn't suitable) etc etc. Its about time we forgot about the 64. It wouldn't fare as well in today's market. As for the Apple Mac IIci, its shippiong now-- no need to wait till Nov. Jon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 285 Sun Sep 24, 1989 A.RICHARDSO7 [ATW MAN!] at 22:51 EDT I work for a company that's in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. Our situation reminds me of Atari's: Lots of good ideas and people, but REAL short on cash. That is the real problem with Atari, they need to work within their means to avoid failures. Hey, Topic Police! HELP{!!!!!!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 286 Sun Sep 24, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 23:06 EDT A.RICHARDSO7, Atari is a $400 million company and ain't in any financial difficulty. In fact what the market analysts wnat to know is where is Atari going...i.e. what new developments will continue to make Big A a good investment. Chapter 11 they ain't in. Craig, the transputer is a SERIAL processor, it doesn't have a 32bit wide data/address bus, it is designed for processing ...in parrallel with other TPs...serial data streams from sources like vidoe, if saddled with the need to do a lot of random access 2D processing like in DTP applications it couldn't keep up with an old grandmother let alone a 33Mhz 68030. You have swallowed the ATW line...the universities in question aren't writing letters they are doing image processing. The ATW and any other highly specialized computer is suited for few purposes. The 680X0 and 80XXXs of the world are for the general purpose random access type applications you use the ST for. I bet TOWNS will not answer any of these technical questions no matter how nicely he is asked, we need more in depth info ...so how does it feel to want. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 287 Mon Sep 25, 1989 ISD [Julius] at 01:03 EDT From futzing with early ATWs, and a prototype before that: A 20 Mhz 68030 cleans a 20 Mhz T800's clock on integer benchmarks. A 20 Mhz T800 cleans a 20 Mhz 68030/68882s or 20 Mhz 80386/80387s clock on floating point benchmarks. *If* you can get your program into the T800s on-board 4k RAM, then the integer benchmarks are comparable to a 20 Mhz 68030. Considerin that the T800 is a 'first' generation RISC chip and SPARC, MIPS, 88000, 80486, 68040 are 'third' generation RISC (or based on RISC-type implementation in case of the latter two), the T800 is an olde f*rt as far as RISC technology goes. It kills me when MIPS magazine benchmarks a prototype 25 Mhz 80486 system against a DEC MIPS based system running at 12.5 Mhz - and the DEC beats most of the '486 benchmarks! Those dudes at MIPS technology are doing good work... The ATW is a excellent machine if you want to do parallel, distributed type processing - the 'next' generation of computing. Current single processor architectures can only be pushed so fast, the next step is more than one processor working on the same, or different, thing. Those that learn parallel programming will be ready for the next wave...at least I think so! <grin> But then again, this is the wrong topic... :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 288 Mon Sep 25, 1989 DOUG.W at 05:25 EDT For more info on the TT, file #260 in the Gadgets RT is a compilation of USENET notes concerning the TT. The file unARCs to over 100K of _very interesting_ info! --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 289 Mon Sep 25, 1989 GORDON at 12:20 EDT Interesting tidbit in Computer Shopper... Mr Nagy says Sig Hartman is going to resign if the TT is not out this year... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 290 Mon Sep 25, 1989 NEVIN-S at 14:07 EDT Sig Hartman has already decided to resign, as almost everyone in the ST community knows. I don't think it has anything to do with the TT, though that would make an elegant excuse. The man has put in enough years and he is entitled to resign whenever he wants. --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 291 Mon Sep 25, 1989 TOWNS at 15:05 EDT I have printed out the message that Mike wrote and the responses to it. I will be passing those along to my boss, Antonio Salerno. I have been passing along messages from this area for the last couple of weeks and will continue to do so. As for your questions, I didn't see any technical questions. Does anyone have any? If I don't know the answer myself, I will try to find out what I can. -- John ------------