THESE TRANSCRIPTS ARE POSTED HERE FOR PRIVATE USE ONLY. THEY ARE NOT INTENDED FOR RESALE OR FOR USE FOR ANY COMMERCIAL PURPOSES. VIOLATIONS COULD RESULT IN COURT TV'S INABILITY TO POST SUCH COMPREHENSIVE TRANSCRIPTS
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, JULY 10, 1995
9:21 A.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
(APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER.
MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. DOUGLAS, MR. BAILEY, MR. BLASIER.
THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED BY MISS CLARK, MR. DARDEN AND MR. GORDON.
THE JURY IS NOT PRESENT.
COUNSEL, ANYTHING WE NEED TO TAKE UP BEFORE THE DEFENSE CALLS THEIR FIRST WITNESS?
MR. COCHRAN: YES. I WOULD LIKE TO BE HEARD, YOUR HONOR, IF I MIGHT.
THE COURT: GOOD MORNING, MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
I JUST WANTED TO INDICATE FOR THE RECORD THAT YESTERDAY AT ABOUT FIVE O'CLOCK -- I SHOULD START OFF BY SAYING THAT I HAVE RECEIVED A CALL FROM MR. YOCHELSON, I BELIEVE ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON, REGARDING WITNESSES ABOVE THE EIGHT OR NINE NAMES THAT I HAD GIVEN HIM I THINK ON LAST WEDNESDAY, OR THE PROSECUTION, AND WE DID IN FACT GET BACK TO HIM YESTERDAY AFTERNOON AND GAVE HIM PERHAPS 20, 24 ADDITIONAL NAMES WHICH WE THINK WILL PERHAPS TAKE US THROUGH THE NEXT TWO WEEKS.
THE COURT: WHICH MEANS WE HAVE APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY NAMES AT THIS POINT?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT I HAVE GIVEN HIM? I HAVEN'T COUNTED EXACTLY, YOUR HONOR, BUT SOMEWHERE IN THE AREA OF 33, 34, AND I WOULD INDICATE FURTHER, IF THERE ARE WITNESSES WE ARE NOT GOING TO CALL, WHEN I BECOME AWARE OF I WILL LET THE PROSECUTION KNOW AND ALWAYS TRY TO LET HIM HAVE THE ORDER.
AND I THINK THAT WILL EXPEDITE THIS MATTER SO THAT WE CAN MOVE THROUGH THIS TRIAL.
I DO HAVE SOME CONCERNS, YOUR HONOR, THAT I WOULD LIKE TO BRING TO YOUR ATTENTION.
ONE OF OUR WITNESSES I WOULD EXPECT TO CALL, HOWEVER, TODAY, DEPENDING ON HOW FAST WE MOVE, A LADY NAMED CAROL CONNORS, AND THIS WITNESS YESTERDAY RECEIVED A CALL FROM A LAWYER BY THE NAME OF GLORIA ALLRED THAT WAS ENTIRELY INAPPROPRIATE.
FIRST OF ALL, MISS CAROL CONNORS IS REPRESENTED BY A LAWYER AND HE WILL BE HERE LATER TODAY. HIS NAME IS ED PEASE. AND I SPOKE WITH HIM LAST NIGHT AND HE WAS EXTREMELY UPSET THAT MISS ALLRED WOULD SEEK TO CALL MISS CONNORS, WHOM HE REPRESENTS, AND THEN PROCEED TO BADGER HER AND WAS SCREAMING AT HER TO THE EXTENT, ACCORDING TO MISS CONNORS, THAT MISS CONNORS HAD TO HANG UP THE PHONE.
AND THE REASON I WANTED TO BRING THIS TO THE COURT'S ATTENTION, SHE WAS APPARENTLY URGING MISS CONNORS TO TALK TO THE PROSECUTION.
AND I AM VERY CONCERNED FOR THESE NUMBER OF WITNESSES WE HAVE, THAT I DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM HARASSED. CERTAINLY THE PROSECUTION HAS A RIGHT TO ASK TO TALK TO THE WITNESS. IF THE WITNESSES WANT TO DO THAT, THAT IS FINE, WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT, BUT I WILL NOT STAND BY AS AN OFFICER OF THIS COURT AND NOT AT LEAST BRING THIS TO YOUR HONOR'S ATTENTION.
AND I BELIEVE MR. PEASE WILL BE GOING TO THE OTHER APPROPRIATE STATE AGENCIES REGARDING THE CONDUCT OF THIS LAWYER IN CALLING HIS CLIENT IN BADGERING HER AS IT HAPPENED LAST NIGHT.
AND I WANTED TO PUT THAT ON THE RECORD AND I THINK IT WAS VERY UNFORTUNATE, AND I HOPE THAT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN WITH ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES, AND IN A SEARCH FOR TRUTH, YOUR HONOR, WITNESSES SHOULD BE ABLE TO COME TO COURT WITHOUT FEAR OF BEING INTIMIDATED OR AFFECTED BY ANYONE, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE OUTRAGEOUS IF PEOPLE WOULD BE DETERRED FROM TESTIFYING IN THIS CASE BECAUSE OF THE CONDUCT FROM ANY OF THE OTHER PARTIES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
I WILL HEAR FROM MR. PEASE WHEN HE IS AVAILABLE.
MR. COCHRAN: HE WILL BE HERE BEFORE SHE TESTIFIES AND I'M SURE WILL BRING IT TO YOUR HONOR'S ATTENTION.
AS WE INDICATED TO THE COURT, IN PROCEEDING WITH THIS CASE, WE ARE READY TO PROCEED AND WOULD ASK LEAVE TO CALL MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON.
WE HAD A CONVERSATION BACK IN CHAMBERS ON FRIDAY WHICH I INDICATED THE GENERAL PARAMETERS OF HER TESTIMONY AND IF THERE IS ANY AREA WHERE I FEEL THAT THERE IS A QUESTION OR WHATEVER, AND THERE IS AN AREA REGARDING A LETTER THAT WE GAVE THE PROSECUTION LAST EVENING, AND THAT THIS IS A LETTER FROM NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON TO MR. SIMPSON IN '93 WHICH WE THINK IS VERY PROBATIVE, BUT IT HAS A SPECIFIC PURPOSE ONLY, AND BEFORE WE GET TO THAT OR ASK ANY QUESTIONS OF IT, I WANT TO HAVE A 402 HEARING.
BUT I DON'T WANT TO DELAY THE PROCEEDINGS. THAT WOULD BE THE VERY LAST QUESTION AND BEFORE WE GOT TO THAT I WOULD ASK FOR A RECESS AND THEN WE WOULD HAVE A 402 HEARING. THAT IS ALL I WOULD LIKE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
GOOD MORNING, MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
LET ME FIRST INDICATE TO THE COURT AND ASSURE THE COURT, ALTHOUGH IT PROBABLY DOES NOT NEED THE ASSURANCE, AT NO TIME HAVE THE PROSECUTION ENGAGED IN ANY CONDUCT THAT WOULD TEND TO HARASS OR INTIMIDATE ANYONE, ANY WITNESS FOR EITHER SIDE.
WE HAVE HAD NO CONTACT WITH CAROL CONNOR. I CERTAINLY HAVE NEVER SPOKEN TO GLORIA ALLRED. AND IF ANY OF THE ALL ALLEGATIONS MADE BY COUNSEL ARE TRUE, WHICH I SINCERELY DOUBT, THEN THAT IS A MATTER TO BE TAKEN UP AT A LATER POINT, BUT
IT CERTAINLY IS NOT ANY CONDUCT ON THE PART OF PROSECUTION. WE WOULD NEVER ENGAGE IN SUCH CONDUCT. IT IS BEYOND EVEN THINKING.
SECONDLY, YOUR HONOR, WITH RESPECT TO THE PROPOSED TESTIMONY OF MISS SIMPSON, THE PEOPLE ARE REQUESTING TODAY THERE ARE BE AN OFFER OF PROOF. WE HAVE NO STATEMENT FROM MISS SIMPSON. WE HAVE NO INDICATION AT ALL AS TO WHAT THE PARAMETERS OF HER TESTIMONY MIGHT BE.
THE PROFFER OF THE LETTER BACK IN '93, I BELIEVE, FROM MS. NICOLE BROWN, IS AN INDICATION TO ME THAT THE INTENDED PARAMETERS ARE VERY, VERY BROAD AND PERHAPS IMPERMISSIBLE, IN LIGHT OF ISSUES THAT ARE FRAMED IN THIS CASE.
AND RATHER THAN HAVE TO GO THROUGH LENGTHY SIDE BARS AND OBJECTIONS THAT WILL WASTE THE JURY'S TIME, WE ARE ASKING THAT THE DEFENSE BE REQUIRED TO SUBMIT AN OFFER OF PROOF TO THIS COURT SO THAT WE CAN SEE WHAT THE BOUNDARIES OF THE TESTIMONY PROPOSED BY HER ARE.
AT THIS TIME WE HAVE NO IDEA. THE ONLY STATEMENT WE HAVE FROM MISS SIMPSON AT THIS TIME IS VERY, VERY BRIEF TESTIMONY ELICITED AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING PURSUANT TO 1538.5 MOTION MADE BY THE DEFENSE AT THAT TIME, WHICH IS JULY OF '94.
AT THIS TIME THERE HAS BEEN NO STATEMENT MADE BY HER TO THE OFFICERS, THERE HAS BEEN NO STATEMENT MADE BY HER TO THE DEFENSE WHICH HAS BEEN PROFFERED TO US, SO WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE DEFENSE INTENDS TO ELICIT.
AND I THINK THE COURT IS ENTITLED TO AN OFFER OF PROOF TO MAKE SURE THAT IMPROPER QUESTIONS ARE NOT ASKED, TO MAKE SURE THAT AREAS ARE NOT GONE INTO WHICH ARE IMPERMISSIBLE OR IMPROPER.
AND PERHAPS THE DEFENSE NEEDS TO KNOW WHAT AREAS THE COURT THINKS ARE PROPER AND IMPROPER OR WHICH AREAS MIGHT OPEN DOORS THE DEFENSE DOES NOT WANT TO OPEN.
AND A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT WOULD BE THE LETTER THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED SO FAR, BUT I THINK THAT IT IS CLEAR THAT IN THE ABSENCE OF A STATEMENT HAVING BEEN GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE THAT WILL INDICATE WHAT THE BOUNDARIES OF THE TESTIMONY ARE, THAT THE COURT IS ENTITLED TO AN OFFER OF PROOF BEFORE THAT WITNESS TESTIFIES AND THE PEOPLE ARE MAKING THAT REQUEST.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: I FIND IT PARTICULARLY IRONIC, YOUR HONOR, THAT THE PROSECUTION HAS CALLED SOME 58 WITNESSES AND TOOK ALMOST SIX MONTHS. WE DIDN'T TRY TO STOP THEM.
THIS SO-CALLED SEARCH FOR TRUTH CERTAINLY TAKES A DIFFERENT TURN WHEN THE DEFENSE GETS ITS CHANCE.
CERTAINLY THIS COURT -- AND WE TALKED ABOUT THIS LAST WEEK, YOUR HONOR, YOU AND I -- HAS AN ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO ASK FOR AN OFFER OF PROOF AND YOU DID AND I TOLD YOU AND YOU IN CHAMBERS INDICATED -- AND THE AREAS THAT I WENT INTO, YOU SAID IT IS ABSOLUTELY RELEVANT AND TOTALLY PERMISSIBLE.
THE PROSECUTION DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO TAKE EACH ONE OF OUR WITNESSES AND ASK WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO TESTIFY TO. THEY ARE SO INSECURE ABOUT THEIR EVIDENCE.
LISTEN, IF THIS IS A SEARCH FOR TRUTH, YOU ARE GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING WITH REGARD TO THE EVIDENCE. WE ARE EXPERIENCED LAWYERS. WE ARE NOT GOING TO GO FAR AFIELD WITH THIS JURY. WE ARE GOING TO BRING ON THE AREAS --
WE KNOW ABOUT OPENING DOORS, AND QUITE FRANKLY, IF THERE IS A QUESTION ABOUT OPENING THE DOOR, WE WANT A RULING, WE WANT A RULING BEFORE WE ASK QUESTIONS, AND I HAVE INDICATED TO YOU WE WILL BE DOING THAT AND I HAVE INDICATED THE GENERAL AREAS WE WILL TALK ABOUT.
IT IS PREPOSTEROUS FOR EXPERIENCED LAWYERS TO STAND HERE AND SAY -- ARNELLE SIMPSON WAS THE PERSON AWAKENED BY THE POLICE OFFICERS, YOUR HONOR, SHORTLY AFTER FIVE O'CLOCK ON THE 13TH.
I MEAN, IT IS PREPOSTEROUS. SHE WAS HOME THAT EVENING. I MEAN, FOR THEM TO SAY THIS IS JUST PREPOSTEROUS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A REPORT. THERE IS NO REPORT.
AND AS I INDICATED ON FRIDAY, AT SOME POINT LATER IN THEIR CAREERS, WHEN THEY PRACTICE ON BOTH SIDES, THIS WILL END. MISS LEWIS INDICATED SHE WILL NEVER BE ON THIS SIDE, BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CLIENT TO BE ON THIS SIDE.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, WE DON'T NEED TO GO INTO THAT.
MR. COCHRAN: RIGHT.
THE POINT IS WE HAVE DONE THIS ALREADY. WE TRIED TO INDICATE THAT TO THE COURT.
I HAVE TOLD YOU FURTHER, MR. SHAPIRO AND I WILL BE TAKING THESE WITNESSES -- FIRST WITNESSES. IF THERE IS A QUESTION MARK IN OUR MIND, UNLIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PEOPLE'S CASE, WE WILL ASK TO APPROACH THE BENCH AND ASK SOME ADVICE ON THOSE QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, WE WILL PROCEED ACCORDINGLY. WHERE THERE IS A WITNESS WHERE THERE IS NO STATEMENT AVAILABLE, I WILL ASK AND EXPECT AN OFFER OF PROOF.
AS TO THE FIRST WITNESS, ARNELLE SIMPSON, THIS PERSON IS WELL-KNOWN TO COUNSEL ON BOTH SIDES. HER ABILITY TO TESTIFY TO WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE THE NIGHT OF THE CRIME, WHAT OCCURRED THAT MORNING, WHAT OCCURRED IN THE FEW DAYS AFTERWARDS, THE DEMEANOR OF THE DEFENDANT, ANY STATEMENTS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN MADE BY MR. SHIPP, I MEAN, SHE IS POTENTIALLY COMPETENT TO TESTIFY TO A NUMBER OF ISSUES THAT ARE OBVIOUS TO ME.
SO I DON'T THINK I'M GOING -- I'M NOT GOING TO EXPECT AN ADDITIONAL OFFER OF PROOF BEYOND WHAT WE DISCUSSED IN CHAMBERS LAST WEEK AS TO MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON.
ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE?
MR. COCHRAN: NO, YOUR HONOR. WE ARE READY TO PROCEED.
THE COURT: LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, ONE QUESTION.
ON THE ISSUE OF THE LETTER THAT THEY WILL ATTEMPT TO INTRODUCE THROUGH MISS SIMPSON, CAN WE HAVE A LIST OF THE P'S AND A'S THEY INTEND TO ARGUE?
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I SUGGEST THAT MR. DARDEN SPEAK WITH MR. UELMEN. MR. UELMEN IS HERE.
THE COURT: MR. GORDON, DO YOU WANT TO CHAT WITH MR. UELMEN.
MR. GORDON: CERTAINLY.
AND MR. COCHRAN, WHO IS GOING TO DO THE DIRECT EXAMINATION OF MISS SIMPSON?
MR. COCHRAN: I WILL BE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: WHO WILL FOLLOW MISS SIMPSON, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, WHO COMES AFTER MISS SIMPSON?
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD EXPECT MISS CARMELITA DURIO.
MR. DARDEN: THERE IS THE ISSUE OF THE EXCLUSION ORDER THAT THE COURT ISSUED AS TO THE BROWN FAMILIES AND THE VICTIM'S FAMILIES AS FAR AS BEING EXCLUDED FROM THE PROCEEDINGS WHEN THERE WAS TESTIMONY BEING PROVIDED BY OTHER WITNESSES THAT MIGHT RELATE TO THEIR TESTIMONY.
THE COURT: MISS SIMPSON, HOLD ON. WE NEED THE JURY FIRST.
MS. SIMPSON: OKAY.
MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU INTERESTED AT ALL IN THAT?
THE COURT: YES. MR. COCHRAN?
MR. COCHRAN: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: EXCLUSION OF OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS WHEN THEY ARE GOING TO BE TESTIFYING AS TO THE SAME ISSUES.
MR. COCHRAN: I EXPECT THAT MRS. SIMPSON WILL BE TESTIFYING SOMETIME THIS MORNING, AND SHE IS IN A WHEELCHAIR. ARE YOU ASKING THAT MRS. SIMPSON, THE MOTHER, BE REMOVED ALSO?
THE COURT: ANYBODY WHO IS GOING TO BE TESTIFYING TO THE SAME ISSUES, YES, THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR EACH OTHER'S TESTIMONY.
MR. COCHRAN: FINE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SO THEY WILL BE EXCLUDED.
(POTENTIAL WITNESSES EXCLUDED.)
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. GORDON: YOUR HONOR, MR. UELMEN INDICATES THAT THERE IS NO LAW OR AUTHORITY AS A BASIS.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, I DON'T NEED TO KNOW THAT NOW.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE COURT: AND COUNSEL, OUR LUNCH RECESS TODAY WILL BE UNTIL 1:30.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
PLEASE BE SEATED.
AND LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.
THE COURT: I SEE EVERYBODY IS WELL.
ALL RIGHT.
AT THIS POINT, MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CALL THE DEFENSE'S FIRST WITNESS.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.
D E F E N S E
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE FIRST WITNESS THAT THE DEFENSE WILL CALL IS MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON.
THE COURT: MISS SIMPSON, WILL YOU COME FORWARD, PLEASE.
ARNELLE SIMPSON,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENDANT, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
THE CLERK: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT ON THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: ARNELLE SIMPSON, A-R-N-E-L-L-E S-I-M-P-S-O-N.
THE CLERK: THANK YOU.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q GOOD MORNING, MISS SIMPSON.
A GOOD MORNING.
Q MISS SIMPSON, ARE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH THE GENTLEMAN AT THE END OF COUNSEL TABLE THERE, MR. O.J. SIMPSON?
A YES, I AM.
Q HOW ARE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH HIM?
A I'M HIS DAUGHTER.
Q AND DO YOU HAVE OTHER BROTHERS AND SISTERS?
A YES, I DO.
Q AND TELL US ABOUT YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, THEIR NAMES AND APPROXIMATE AGES.
A JASON, SYDNEY AND JUSTIN.
Q AND CAN YOU TELL US APPROXIMATELY THEIR AGES?
A JASON IS 25, SYDNEY IS 10 AND JUSTIN IS 6.
Q AND YOU ARE STILL YOUNG ENOUGH THAT I CAN ASK THIS. HOW OLD ARE YOU?
A 26.
Q AND YOU ARE THE OLDEST OF THE SIMPSON SIBLINGS?
A YES, I AM.
Q WHAT WAS YOUR DATE OF BIRTH?
A 12/4/68.
Q SOMETHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THAT DATE?
A I WAS BORN THE SAME DAY MY DAD WON THE HEISMAN TROPHY.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR BACKGROUND, HAVE YOU ATTENDED COLLEGE?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q WHERE DID YOU ATTEND COLLEGE?
A I WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO AND THEN TRANSFERRED TO HOWARD UNIVERSITY IN WASHINGTON D.C.
Q AND AT SOME POINT DID YOU FINISH HOWARD UNIVERSITY?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHEN WAS THAT, APPROXIMATELY?
A IN '92.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AFTER YOU FINISHED COLLEGE -- AND HOWARD UNIVERSITY IS IN WASHINGTON D.C.?
A YES, IT IS.
Q DID YOU THEN HAVE OCCASION TO RETURN BACK TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA?
A YEAH, PERIODICALLY THROUGH THE HOLIDAYS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND PRIOR TO THAT -- AND AFTER THAT DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO RELOCATE HERE TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, MOVE BACK HERE AND LIVE HERE?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHEN WAS THAT, APPROXIMATELY?
A IN SEPTEMBER OF '92.
Q AND THAT WAS AFTER FINISHING; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, IT WAS.
Q DID THERE COME A TIME THEREAFTER THAT YOU HAVE HAD OCCASION TO MOVE BACK TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE THAT WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT IN BRENTWOOD?
A YES, I DID.
Q NOW, HAD YOU LIVED AT ROCKINGHAM AT SOME TIME EARLIER IN YOUR LIFE?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q DO YOU RECALL WHEN THAT WAS, APPROXIMATELY?
A OFF AND ON MY WHOLE LIFE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WELL, WHEN YOU WERE A YOUNG LADY WAS YOUR FATHER MARRIED TO YOUR MOTHER?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT IS YOUR MOTHER'S NAME?
A MARGUERITE THOMAS.
Q IS SHE PRESENT IN COURT TODAY?
A YES, SHE IS.
Q IS SHE THE LADY WITH THE FLOWER ON WITH THE YELLOW?
A YES, SHE IS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN DID YOU FIRST MOVE INTO ROCKINGHAM, IF YOU RECALL?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q AS A YOUNGSTER?
A I WAS I BELIEVE 7 WHEN I FIRST MOVED IN WITH MY MOTHER AND FATHER.
Q AND CAN YOU MOVE A LITTLE CLOSER TO THE MICROPHONE.
A SORRY.
THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU JUST PULL IT CLOSER.
THANK YOU.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q I'M SORRY, I MISSED THAT LAST ANSWER.
YOU WERE APPROXIMATELY 7 YEARS OF AGE?
A YEAH, I BELIEVE SO, UH-HUH.
Q AND AT THAT TIME WAS THAT THE FAMILY HOME?
A YES, IT WAS.
Q AND WHO LIVED AT THAT HOUSE AT THAT TIME?
A MY MOTHER, MY FATHER, MYSELF AND MY BROTHER AND MY SISTER ERIN AND SHE PASSED.
Q YOU HAD A SISTER ERIN WHO ULTIMATELY PASSED?
A YES.
Q SO THIS WAS A FAMILY HOME PURCHASED AT THAT TIME; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, IT WAS.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE AT ROCKINGHAM AFTER YOU MOVED IN AT ABOUT 7 YEARS OF AGE?
A I LIVED THERE UNTIL '87 WHEN I GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL.
Q ALL RIGHT. FROM HIGH SCHOOL?
A UH-HUH.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU'VE GOT TO SAY YES.
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, THEN AFTER -- FROM '87 -- AFTER '87 YOU LIVED OTHER PLACES; IS THAT CORRECT?
A PARDON ME?
Q YOU DIDN'T LIVE AT ROCKINGHAM AFTER '87 FOR AWHILE?
A I WENT OFF TO COLLEGE.
Q THEN AFTER NOW YOU HAD FINISHED COLLEGE, DID THERE COME A TIME IN 1993 THAT YOU MOVED BACK INTO ROCKINGHAM?
A YES, I DID.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WILL YOU TELL THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY WHEN THAT WAS THAT YOU MOVED BACK INTO ROCKINGHAM.
A IT WAS APPROXIMATELY PROBABLY EARLY MARCH OF '93.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHAT WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING YOUR MOVING BACK? DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: I ASKED IF I COULD MOVE IN.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: YES WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, IT SEEMS TO ME, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OKAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND IN THAT CONVERSATION DID THE TWO OF YOU DISCUSS YOUR MOVING BACK INTO ROCKINGHAM?
A YES, WE DID.
Q YES OR NO.
WAS ANYONE ELSE PRESENT DURING THAT CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH HIM?
A YES.
Q WHO WAS THAT?
A PAULA BARBIERI.
Q WHO WAS PAULA BARBIERI?
A MY FATHER'S GIRLFRIEND.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHERE DID THIS CONVERSATION TAKE PLACE?
A IN OUR T.V. ROOM AT THE HOUSE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHICH HOUSE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? ROCKINGHAM?
A 360, YEAH.
Q YOU CAN TELL US WHY WAS IT THAT YOU DECIDED YOU WANTED TO MOVE BACK AT HOME AT THAT POINT, JUST GENERALLY?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, RELEVANCE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: AT THE TIME I WAS LIVING WITH MY MOTHER AND SHE HAD A DUPLEX AND WANTED TO RENT OUT THE -- THE PLACE I WAS STAYING IN, AND I HAD ASKED MY DAD IF I COULD MOVE IN AND HE SAID YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. HE INDICATED YES?
A YES.
Q WE WON'T GO INTO THE CONVERSATION.
SO THE REASON WAS YOU WANTED TO MOVE FROM YOUR MOTHER'S RESIDENCE AND YOU WANTED TO MOVE BACK HOME; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q NOW, WHEN YOU LIVED AT ROCKINGHAM WHEN YOU WERE A YOUNGSTER, DID YOU HAVE YOUR OWN ROOM?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND YOUR BROTHER JASON HAD HIS OWN ROOM?
A YES, HE DID.
Q AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU MOVED OUT DID YOUR FATHER REMARRY?
A YES, HE DID.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THE ROOM THAT YOU HAD HAD, WHO OCCUPIED THE ROOMS THAT YOU ORIGINALLY HAD WHEN YOU WERE A YOUNG PERSON? DID YOUR YOUNGER BROTHERS AND SISTERS TAKE OVER THOSE ROOMS?
A YES, THEY DID.
Q THAT IS SYDNEY AND JUSTIN?
A YES.
Q SO WHEN YOU MOVED BACK OR WHEN YOU WANTED TO MOVE BACK, WHERE WERE YOU GOING TO MOVE AT THAT POINT? WHICH ROOM WERE YOU GOING TO MOVE IN, IF YOU KNOW?
A BECAUSE JUSTIN AND SYDNEY WERE OCCUPYING OUR ROOM, DAD BUILT TWO ADDITIONAL ROOMS IN THE BACK FOR US SO THAT WE WOULD HAVE A PLACE TO STAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO HE BUILT TWO ADDITIONAL ROOMS -- MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
THERE IS A DIAGRAM THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED AND I WOULD LIKE TO -- IT IS A PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT.
MR. DOUGLAS: PEOPLE'S 66, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
PEOPLE'S 66 WHICH IS THE DIAGRAM OF THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THIS PARTICULAR EXHIBIT IS NOW IN EVIDENCE; IS THAT CORRECT?
THE COURT: IT IS.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: MISS SIMPSON, WITH REGARD TO PEOPLE'S 66 WHICH PURPORTS TO BE A DIAGRAM OF THE GROUND AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM AVENUE, YOU HAVE SEEN THIS DIAGRAM BEFORE, HAVE YOU?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU WERE JUST DESCRIBING FOR THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY AND THE COURT THAT YOUR DAD HAD BUILT SOME ADDITIONAL ROOMS AFTER HIS NEW FAMILY HAD MOVED INTO ROCKINGHAM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND CAN YOU SHOW US, IF THE COURT ALLOW YOU TO STEP DOWN BRIEFLY AND SHOW US WHERE THE ROOMS WERE THAT YOUR DAD HAD BUILT FOR YOU AND YOUR BROTHER, BASICALLY, JASON?
A (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: FOR THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR,
MISS SIMPSON HAS INDICATED TWO AREAS ON PEOPLE'S 66 MARKED "ARNELLE'S ROOM" AND SHE INDICATED BOTH OF THOSE ROOMS, IF THE COURT PLEASES.
THE COURT: YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND THOSE ARE THE TWO ROOMS THAT YOU AND YOUR BROTHER JASON COULD OCCUPY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A UH-HUH, YES.
Q SO AFTER THIS CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD AND PAULA BARBIERI, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO MOVE BACK INTO ROCKINGHAM?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND IN THE COURSE OF THE CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH YOUR DAD, DID PAULA BARBIERI ALSO PARTICIPATE IN THAT CONVERSATION?
A YES, SHE DID.
Q NOW, WHEN YOU MOVED BACK INTO ROCKINGHAM, I THINK YOU TOLD US THAT WAS PERHAPS AROUND MARCH OR SO MUCH 1993?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HAVE ANY SPECIAL ARRANGEMENTS WHEREBY YOU WERE GOING TO PAY RENT OR WHATEVER?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND WHAT WAS THAT?
A THAT I WOULD MOVE IN AND GIVE MY FATHER 50 OR A HUNDRED DOLLARS A MONTH SO THAT WHEN IT WAS TIME FOR ME TO GET READY TO LEAVE I WOULD HAVE MONEY FOR A DOWNPAYMENT FOR A FIRST AND LAST RENT.
Q DID YOU GET THE MONEY BACK?
A NO.
Q DID YOU GET THE MONEY BACK FROM YOUR DAD IF YOU MOVED?
A IF I WERE TO MOVE, YES.
Q DID YOU ALWAYS PAY THE 50 OR THE $100.00?
A IN THE BEGINNING I DID AND THEN IT KIND OF SLACKED OFF.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU DIDN'T -- YOU WEREN'T PUT OUT, AT ANY RATE, WERE YOU?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, SO STARTING THEN IN MARCH OF 1993 YOU MOVED BACK INTO THE RESIDENCE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES, YES, I DID.
Q NOW, I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT THE FAMILY DOGS.
DID YOU HAVE A DOG BACK IN THE EARLY PART OF 1993, OR DOGS, AT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q OKAY. TELL US THE NAME OF THOSE DOGS.
A CHACHI AND CHUBBS.
Q NOW, CHACHI WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT AND IS THAT THE BLACK CHOW THAT YOU HAVE THAT WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG YOU HAD CHACHI, APPROXIMATELY?
A OH, GOODNESS, IT HAS BEEN ABOUT NINE YEARS.
Q SO HE'S A NINE-YEAR OLD DOG OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
A YES, UH-HUH.
Q HE IS THE BLACK DOG THAT WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q YOU MENTIONED A NEW NAME, CHUBBS. WHO IS CHUBBS?
A OUR OTHER DOG THAT WE HAD.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHAT KIND OF DOG WAS CHUBBS?
A A CHOW, A BROWN CHOW.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG YOU HAD HAD CHUBBS PRIOR TO 1993?
A ABOUT ELEVEN, TWELVE YEARS.
Q WAS CHUBBS OLDER THAN CHACHI?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPEN TO CHUBBS?
A YES, HE DIED.
Q AND WERE YOU IN AND AROUND THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE WHEN THAT HAPPENED?
A YES, I WAS.
Q AND AFTER THAT DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPEN AFTER CHUBBS HAD DIED?
A YES.
Q WHAT WAS THAT?
A WE BURIED HIM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO THIS -- THIS DOG, YOU WERE ATTACHED TO THIS DOG?
A YES.
Q WHAT ABOUT THE YOUNGER CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q AND AT THAT TIME WHEN DID HE DIE EXACTLY?
A HE DIED EITHER FEBRUARY -- END OF FEBRUARY, MAYBE BEGINNING OF MARCH OF '93.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WAS MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON -- DO YOU KNOW WHERE SHE WAS LIVING AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q WHERE WAS SHE LIVING?
A GRETNA GREEN.
Q WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH THAT RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q WOULD YOU OCCASIONALLY GO OVER TO THAT RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q HOW OFTEN WOULD GO OVER TO THAT RESIDENCE WHEN SHE LIVED AT GRETNA GREEN?
A IT WAS VERY CLOSE SO I WOULD STOP BY PERIODICALLY TO SAY HELLO AND SEE THE KIDS, SOMETIMES DO ERRANDS WITH HER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU MAKE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THIS DOG CHUBBS HAD DIED?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID SOMETHING HAPPEN THEREAFTER?
A YES, SHE CAME OVER.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
MR. COCHRAN: I WILL LINK IT UP.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU MAY ANSWER.
A YES.
Q AND WHAT HAPPENED?
A AT THAT POINT MY FATHER, NICOLE AND I PROCEEDED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WE WERE GOING TO DO WITH CHUBBS AND WE DECIDED TO BURY HIM IN THE FRONT YARD.
Q HE IS BURIED IN THE FRONT YARD OF ROCKINGHAM?
A OF THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WAS THIS A PROCEDURE THAT TOOK PLACE ON THE DAY YOU FOUND HIM?
A YES.
Q WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS DOG?
A UMM, HE WAS IN THE POOL.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO THIS -- THIS PROCEDURE THAT YOU HAD WHERE THE DOG WAS BURIED, WAS HE BURIED IN THE FRONT YARD OF ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
Q HOW DID THAT TAKE PLACE?
A UMM, WE DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE HIM TO ANYBODY BECAUSE WE HAD HAD THE DOG FOR SO LONG, SO NICOLE HAD ACTUALLY MADE THE DECISION TO BURY THE DOG IN THE FRONT YARD AND SHE DUG A HOLE IN THE FRONT YARD.
Q HE WAS BURIED IN THE FRONT YARD?
A YES.
Q DID YOUR FATHER TRY TO DIG THAT HOLE?
A HE ATTEMPTED TO.
Q AND WHAT DID YOU SEE HIM DO, IF ANYTHING?
A HE COULDN'T DO IT.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE AN OFFER WITH REGARD TO THAT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. '93.
MR. COCHRAN: VERY WELL, YOUR HONOR.
Q SO MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON DUG THIS HOLE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WERE THE YOUNGER CHILDREN ALSO PRESENT AT THAT TIME?
A NO, THEY WERE NOT.
Q OKAY.
JUST WHO WAS PRESENT AT THE TIME THE DOG WAS BURIED?
A MY FATHER, NICOLE AND MYSELF.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AFTER THAT DOG -- AFTER CHUBBS HAD PASSED ON, DID YOUR FATHER HAVE OCCASION TO BUY ANOTHER DOG?
A YES, HE DID.
Q WHAT WAS THAT DOG'S NAME?
A KATO.
Q WHEN WAS KATO BOUGHT IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE TIME THAT CHUBBS DIED?
A MAYBE TWO TO THREE WEEKS LATER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOUR DAD BOUGHT THAT DOG?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHERE -- AT THAT POINT AND THEREAFTER WHERE WOULD KATO LIVE?
A AT MY DAD'S HOUSE.
Q OKAY. AT ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
Q SO HOW MANY DOGS DID YOU HAVE AGAIN AT THIS POINT?
A TWO.
Q SO THAT YOU HAD BOTH KATO AND CHACHI LIVING AT ROCKINGHAM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WOULD THERE EVER BE OCCASIONS WHEN KATO WOULD BE OVER OR TAKEN OVER TO MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND AT SOME POINT DID SHE MOVE FROM THE LOCATION AT GRETNA GREEN TO SOME OTHER LOCATION?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WAS, APPROXIMATELY?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS THE END OF '93.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU -- DID YOU IN ANY WAY -- WERE YOU AWARE ABOUT THE TIME THAT SHE MOVED? DID YOU PARTICIPATE IN THAT MOVE AT ALL?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q YOU KNEW WHEN SHE MOVED; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YEAH.
Q THAT IS WHEN SHE MOVED TO BUNDY, IS IT?
A YES.
Q THEN KATO YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US WAS LIVING AT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE PRIMARILY; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q ALONG WITH CHACHI; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY. WOULD THERE EVER BE TIMES WHEN NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WOULD COME BY AND GET EITHER ONE OF THE DOGS, KATO OR CHACHI?
A YES.
Q DESCRIBE THAT FOR US.
A SHE WOULD COME BY IN THE MORNINGS AND EITHER TAKE THE DOG OVER TO SEE THE KIDS OR SHE WOULD RUN WITH THE DOG.
Q OKAY.
WHICH DOG WOULD SHE RUN WITH PRIMARILY, IF YOU RECALL?
A KATO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WOULD SHE EVER RUN WITH CHACHI?
A NO.
Q AND WHY WAS THAT, IF YOU KNEW?
A CHACHI HAS REALLY BAD ARTHRITIS.
Q HE HAS ARTHRITIS?
A YES.
Q BUT KATO IS A YOUNGER DOG?
A YES.
Q SHE WOULD RUN WITH KATO?
A YES.
Q WOULD SHE TAKE KATO WITH HER?
A YES.
Q WOULD THERE BE TIMES WHEN KATO WOULD STAY OVERNIGHT OVER AT THE BUNDY RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q NOW, YOUR DAD HAS SEVERAL CARS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN YOU MOVED BACK IN IN 1993, HOW MANY CARS DID HE HAVE AT THAT POINT, IN AND AROUND THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE?
A THREE.
Q AND WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT A BLACK BENTLEY?
A YES.
Q THAT IS ONE OF THE CARS?
A UH-HUH.
Q AND DID HE HAVE A WHITE BRONCO?
A YES.
Q AND HE HAD ANOTHER CAR?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE IS THAT CAR?
A IN THE GARAGE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THAT IS A THIRD CAR; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE BRONCO, WHAT FAMILY MEMBERS, IF ANY, WOULD DRIVE THIS BRONCO VEHICLE THAT YOUR DAD HAD?
A EVERYBODY.
Q AND BY "EVERYBODY" WHO DO YOU MEAN?
A MYSELF, MY BROTHER, A.C., NICOLE, MY FATHER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO WE GET SOME NAMES, SOME NEW NAMES HERE, WHEN YOU SAY "A.C.," WHO DO YOU HAVE REFERENCE TO?
A ALLAN COWLINGS.
Q IS THAT COWLINGS, C-O-W-L-I-N-G-S?
A YES.
Q ALLAN COWLINGS?
A YES.
Q IS THAT A FRIEND OF YOUR DAD'S AND THE FAMILY?
A YES.
Q AND YOU TOLD US THAT NICOLE WOULD DRIVE THE BRONCO?
A YES.
Q YOU WOULD DRIVE THE BRONCO?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN YOU SAY YOUR BROTHER, I PRESUME YOU MEAN YOUR OLDER BROTHER JASON?
A YES.
Q BY THE WAY, I MAY HAVE NEGLECTED, IS THIS YOUR OLDER BROTHER JASON SITTING NEXT TO YOUR MOTHER?
A YES.
Q TO THE RIGHT OF YOUR MOTHER.
NOW, DO YOU HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF SEEING MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON DRIVE THAT BRONCO FROM THE TIME THAT YOU MOVED BACK IN OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST NUMBER OF YEARS?
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES SHE WOULD TEND TO DRIVE THE BRONCO?
A UMM, EITHER TO TAKE THE DOGS. AT ONE POINT HER CAR WAS IN THE SHOP, OR TO USE THE CAR WITH JUSTIN AND SYDNEY IF THEY HAD OTHER KIDS WITH THEM, FRIENDS OF JUSTIN AND SYDNEY'S.
Q TO GO OUT LIKE ON OUTINGS OR WHATEVER?
A YES, YES.
Q HAVE YOU EVER SEEN TIMES WHEN SHE HAD ONE OR BOTH OF THE DOGS INSIDE THE BRONCO WHEN SHE TOOK IT?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. VAGUE AS TO THE TIME, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: HAVE YOU SEEN TIMES WHEN SHE HAS HAD ONE OR BOTH THE DOGS IN THE CAR?
A YES.
Q WOULD THERE BE ONE DOG TAKEN IN THE CAR MORE OFTEN THAN ANOTHER?
A YES.
Q WHICH DOG WOULD SHE INDICATE MOST OFTEN?
A KATO.
Q AND THE CHILDREN WOULD ALSO BE IN THE CAR ON OCCASION?
A YES.
Q NOW, AFTER YOU MOVED IN IN MARCH OF -- THEREABOUTS OF 1993, WOULD YOU HAVE OCCASION TO SEE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON OR THE CHILDREN OVER AT ROCKINGHAM ON TIMES AFTER YOU MOVED IN IN MARCH OF 1993?
A YES.
Q WOULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY THE CIRCUMSTANCES BY WHICH YOU WOULD SEE HER OVER AT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE.
A UMM, SHE WOULD COME OVER IN THE MORNINGS, SOMETIMES TO LET THE KIDS SWIM, OR SHE WOULD DROP THEM OFF WHILE SHE WENT RUNNING AND I WOULD WATCH JUSTIN AND SYDNEY AND SHE WOULD COME OVER SOMETIMES TO PICK UP HER MAIL.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SHE HAD MAIL THAT WOULD STILL COME TO THAT RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q IF YOU ARE AWARE, YOU HAD BEEN OVER TO THE BUNDY RESIDENCE, HAD YOU NOT?
A YES.
Q DID SHE HAVE A POOL AT BUNDY?
A NO.
Q SO THE KIDS LIKED TO SWIM?
A YES.
Q AND THERE IS IN FACT, LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S 66, A POOL AREA THAT WE HAVE ALL SEEN ON OUR JURY VIEW AT ROCKINGHAM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, WOULD YOU KNOW THE TIME SHE WAS COMING OVER THERE --
A NO.
Q -- TO BRING THE KIDS?
ALL RIGHT.
SO HOW WOULD YOU DETERMINE SHE WAS THERE OR FIND OUT SHE WAS THERE.
A I WOULD WAKE UP IN THE MORNING AND SOMETIMES I WOULD WALK OUTSIDE AND SHE WOULD BE OUT LAYING -- LAYING OUT AND THE KIDS WOULD BE IN THE POOL, OR I WOULD COME INSIDE THE HOUSE AND SHE WOULD BE IN THE KITCHEN OR WE WOULD BE GOING AND PASSING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DURING THIS TIME FRAME SHE AND YOUR FATHER WERE SOMEWHAT SEPARATED; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WOULD I BE CORRECT IN ASSUMING THAT WHEN YOU FIRST MOVED BACK IN HIS GIRLFRIEND AT THAT TIME WAS PAULA BARBIERI?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, THE TIMES THAT YOU WOULD SEE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON OVER AT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE, DID THAT COULDN'T ON FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AFTER YOU GOT BACK IN MARCH OF 1993?
A YES.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, WOULD YOU HAVE OCCASION TO EVER GO OVER TO THE BUNDY RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD YOU GO OVER TO BUNDY, MA'AM?
A TO STOP BY, TO SAY HELLO, TO TALK TO THE KIDS. ON OCCASION SHE WOULD CALL ME TO BABYSIT THE KIDS IN THE MORNING SO SHE COULD JOG OR TO TAKE THEM TO SCHOOL.
Q WERE THERE OCCASIONS THAT AFTER YOU MOVED BACK INTO ROCKINGHAM THAT YOU WOULD BABYSIT THE CHILDREN AT BUNDY?
A YES.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR DAD, MR. O.J. SIMPSON, IF YOU KNOW, WERE THERE TIMES WHEN HE WOULD SPEND THE NIGHTS, WHICH IS AFTER YOU CAME BACK IN MARCH OF 1993, OVER AT THE BUNDY LOCATION?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY, SPECULATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M ASKING IF SHE KNOWS.
Q HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT HE WOULD SPEND THE NIGHT OVER THERE? WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT FOR THE COURT AND THE JURY.
A UMM, HE WOULD CALL ME TO SEE IF ANYBODY WAS AT THE HOUSE, SOMETIMES CALL ME IF THEY WANTED SOMETHING FROM THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE FOR ME TO BRING OVER TO NICOLE'S HOUSE.
Q AND WOULD THERE BE OCCASIONS WHERE YOU WOULD BRING THINGS FROM THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE OVER TO BUNDY AND HE WOULD BE THERE?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT KIND OF THINGS WOULD YOU BRING OVER THERE?
A UMM, LIKE JUSTIN'S NINTENDO GAME OR A VIDEO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID THE CHILDREN HAVE GAMES LIKE NINTENDO AND OTHER KIND OF VIDEOS AT ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
Q DID THEY ALSO HAVE SOME NINTENDO AND GAMES ALSO AT BUNDY?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER HAVE OCCASION TO BRING ANY CLOTHES OVER FOR YOUR DAD FROM THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE OVER TO BUNDY?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, VAGUE AS TO TIME.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND WE ARE TALKING, SO THAT WE ARE CLEAR FOR THE TIME, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PRIMARILY AFTER YOU HAD MOVED BACK IN; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL SPECIFICALLY WHEN THE TIMES WERE THAT YOU HAVE HAD OCCASION TO BRING CLOTHES OVER TO YOUR DAD, THE TIMES HE WAS OVER AT BUNDY, IF YOU RECALL?
A YES.
Q TELL US ABOUT THAT, PLEASE, MA'AM.
A UMM, IT WAS DURING -- BETWEEN '93 AND '94 AROUND -- DURING THE SUMMERTIME.
Q THE SUMMER OF '93?
A YES.
Q DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOU STARTED TO SEE NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND YOUR DAD, MR. O.J. SIMPSON, START TO GO OUT TOGETHER AGAIN?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN WAS THAT, APPROXIMATELY?
A IT WAS PROBABLY AROUND THE MONTHS OF MARCH OR APRIL OF '93.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WAS THIS ABOUT THE TIME WHEN YOU WOULD SEE HER OUT BY THE SWIMMING POOL AND THINGS LIKE THAT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND THEN AFTER HE STARTED TO SEE
MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AGAIN, IF YOU KNOW, DID HE STOP SEEING PAULA BARBIERI?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT. SO --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, SPECULATION, MOTION TO STRIKE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO THEN ONCE HE STARTED SEEING NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AGAIN HE WASN'T THEN SEEING PAULA BARBIERI; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WITH REGARD TO THE TIME THAT
MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON MOVED TO THE BUNDY LOCATION, DID YOU THINK THAT WAS NEAR THE END OF '93 OR THE FIRST OF '94?
DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WAS?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS END OF '93.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO SOMEWHERE AROUND THAT RANGE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q SO THIS TIME FRAME WHERE YOU DESCRIBED THAT YOU WOULD TAKE CLOTHES OVER TO THE BUNDY LOCATION WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE SUMMER OF '93 AND THAT WAS A TIME WHEN YOUR DAD WAS AGAIN GOING OUT WITH OR DATING MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q NOW, DURING THIS TIME THAT THEY WERE SEEING EACH OTHER, SHE NEVER MOVED BACK PERMANENTLY TO ROCKINGHAM, DID SHE?
A NO.
Q SHE NEVER MOVED IN THE HOUSE, DID SHE?
A NO.
Q WOULD THERE BE TIMES WHEN SHE WOULD COME OVER AND SPEND SOME TIME AT THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q AND DESCRIBE THAT. DID THAT COULDN'T TO HAPPEN OVER A PERIOD OF TIME?
A YES.
Q AND DID THEY CONTINUE TO DATE, IF YOU WILL, FROM THE TIME YOU'VE TALKED TO US ABOUT IN APRIL OR MAY THROUGHOUT '93 INTO '94?
A YES.
Q AND WOULD YOU SEE HER FAIRLY FREQUENTLY DURING THAT TIME FRAME?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, LEADING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WILL YOU DESCRIBE FOR US HOW OFTEN YOU WOULD SEE HER DURING THIS TIME FRAME AFTER THEY STARTED DATING.
A ALMOST EVERYDAY.
Q AND JUST DESCRIBE FOR US A GENERAL DAY IF YOU CAN PICTURE FOR US -- WE ARE NOW TALKING ABOUT AFTER THE TIME THEY GOT BACK TOGETHER.
A CAN YOU REPHRASE THAT?
Q OKAY. CERTAINLY I WILL.
THE QUESTION I WAS ASKING WAS WHETHER OR NOT THEY TENDED TO SEE EACH OTHER AT BOTH LOCATIONS, BOTH ROCKINGHAM AND BUNDY, AND I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU TO DESCRIBE A DAY WHEN YOU MIGHT SEE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AT ROCKINGHAM, FIRST OF ALL.
A UMM, SHE WOULD COME OVER DURING THE SUMMER. AT ONE POINT WE HAD ALL GONE TO A MOVIE, THE WHOLE FAMILY. UMM, THEY HAD THROWN A COUPLES PARTY AND SHE WOULD BE OVER TO THE HOUSE. UMM, OR HE WOULD BE OVER AT NICOLE'S HOUSE AND I WOULD GO OVER THERE, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, AND DROP OFF CLOTHES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO WITH REGARD TO THIS TIME FRAME, ARE YOU SURE OF THE EXACT DATES OF THE TIME THAT MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON MOVED FROM GRETNA GREEN TO BUNDY?
A UMM, I'M ASSUMING END OF '93, BUT NO, I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DATE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU KNOW THAT AT SOME POINT SHE LIVED AT GRETNA GREEN?
A AND THEN MOVED.
Q AND AT SOME POINT SHE MOVED TO BUNDY?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE LATE SUMMER, IN THE MONTH OF AUGUST OR THEREABOUTS OF EACH YEAR, WERE YOU AWARE OF HOW YOUR DAD WAS EMPLOYED AT THAT TIME?
A UMM, HE WOULD START HIS FOOTBALL SEASON.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WAS A SPORTSCASTER OF SOME KIND?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN HE STARTED HIS SPORTSCASTING DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPEN OR DID HE HAVE TO MOVE ON LOCATIONS IN AUGUST OF -- STRIKE THAT.
WOULD HE HAVE OCCASION TO MOVE HIS RESIDENCE IN THE MONTH OF AUGUST OR IN THE LATE SUMMER?
A YES, HE WOULD.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHERE WOULD HE GO DURING THIS TIME FRAME, IF YOU KNOW, MA'AM?
A HE WOULD MOVE TO NEW YORK AND THEN TRAVEL OUT OF NEW YORK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION AGAIN WHAT MONTH THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE HE WOULD MOVE TO NEW YORK?
A IT WOULD USUALLY BE THE MONTHS OF AUGUST UNTIL JANUARY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU SAID HE WOULD MOVE TO NEW YORK. DID HE HAVE A RESIDENCE IN NEW YORK?
A YES, HE DID.
Q AND WHAT KIND OF PLACE DID HE HAVE IN NEW YORK?
A HE HAD AN APARTMENT.
Q AND YOU HAVE BEEN TO THAT APARTMENT, OF COURSE?
A YES.
Q NOW, YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT YOU WERE ATTENDING HOWARD UNIVERSITY IN WASHINGTON D.C.; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND SO WOULD YOU HAVE OCCASION TO SEE YOUR DAD OR VISIT YOUR DAD WHEN YOU WERE IN D.C. AND HE IS UP IN NEW YORK --
A YES.
Q -- WHEN YOU WERE BACK THERE?
WOULD YOU EVER GO TO THE NEW YORK APARTMENT?
A YES, OFTEN.
Q NOW, DURING THAT TIME FRAME, AFTER
MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND YOUR DAD STARTED DATING AGAIN, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT YOU EVER HAD OCCASION TO SEE THEM TOGETHER IN NEW YORK AT ANY TIME?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT FOR US?
A UMM, IT WAS NO DIFFERENT THAN THE NORMAL. IT WOULD USUALLY BE ON SOME OF THE HOLIDAYS, SOMETIMES THE WEEKEND. IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR ME TO GO TO NEW YORK AS OPPOSED TO FLYING ALL THE WAY TO L.A. FROM WASHINGTON D.C., SO --
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THERE WOULD BE TIMES THAT YOU WOULD SEE THE FAMILY THERE?
A YES.
Q WOULD THAT INCLUDE THE TWO MINOR CHILDREN ALSO?
A JUSTIN AND SYDNEY, YES.
Q AND YOURSELF?
A YES.
Q NOW, WHEN YOU MOVED BACK INTO THE HOUSE THAT YOU DESCRIBED FOR US IN MARCH OF 1993, WERE YOU GIVEN ANY PARTICULAR INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT YOUR ROLE AROUND THE HOUSE THERE?
A YES.
Q WHAT WAS THAT?
A THAT BASICALLY I HAD BECOME THE WOMAN OF THE HOUSE AND WHILE HE WAS GONE FOR ME JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING WAS RUNNING IN THE HOUSEHOLD AND TO JUST WATCH IT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO NOW AS YOU BECAME THE WOMAN OF THE HOUSE, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT IN THE MONTH OF AUGUST OF 1993 DID YOUR DAD GO AND DO SPORTSCASTING OR BROADCASTING AND HAVE OCCASION TO GO TO NEW YORK DURING THIS TIME FRAME?
A YES.
Q SO THERE WOULD BE PERIODS OF TIME WHEN HE WASN'T EVEN HERE IN CALIFORNIA?
A YES.
Q AND WERE YOU THE WOMAN OF THE HOUSE?
A YES. THAT IS THE REASON WHY HE MADE ME THE WOMAN OF THE HOUSE.
Q AS THE WOMAN OF THE HOUSE, WHAT KIND OF THINGS WOULD YOU DO?
A JUST MAKE SURE EVERYTHING WAS RUNNING, UMM, AS FAR AS THE GARDENER AND PEOPLE COMING INTO THE HOUSE, REGULATING IT, WATCHING, YOU KNOW, THE CARS, JUST HOUSEHOLD THINGS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THERE WAS A HOUSEKEEPER?
A YES, THERE WAS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WOULD THE HOUSEKEEPER BE THERE ON WEEKENDS?
A NO.
Q SO ON WEEKENDS YOU WOULD REALLY HAVE TO BE THE WOMAN OF THE HOUSE THEN; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU DID IN '93 AFTER YOU MOVED IN; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND PRIMARILY HE WAS TRAVELING AND DOING HIS SPORTSCASTING WORK FROM AUGUST ON?
A YES.
Q AND THAT WOULD LAST HOW LONG?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q SAY UNTIL JANUARY?
A OH, YEAH, AUGUST UNTIL JANUARY.
Q IS THERE SOME BIG FOOTBALL GAME THAT OCCURS TOWARD THE END OF JANUARY CALLED THE SUPERBOWL?
A YES.
Q DOES THAT END THE FOOTBALL SEASON?
A YES.
Q AFTER THAT WOULD HE STAY IN NEW YORK OR WHERE WOULD HE GO, IF YOU RECALL?
A HE WAS IN L.A. BUT HE WOULD TRAVEL QUITE A BIT, TOO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, HE WOULD TRAVEL A LOT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU WERE LIVING -- AND SO -- I'M NOT SURE WE MADE IT CLEAR FOR THE JURY, BUT AFTER HE MOVED BACK IN, YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD BUILT ROOMS FOR YOU AND JASON AND YOU DESCRIBED ARNELLE'S ROOM BACK HERE, (INDICATING)?
A UH-HUH.
Q AND I DON'T THINK I ASKED WHICH ROOM YOU MOVED INTO. WHEN YOU MOVED BACK IN, WHERE DID YOU MOVE, IF YOU RECALL?
MAY SHE STEP DOWN, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YES.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
I WAS LIVING HERE, (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE ROOM MARKED "ARNELLE'S ROOM," YOUR HONOR. THAT IS NEXT TO KATO -- STRIKE THAT.
NEXT TO THE ROOM MARKED "KAELIN'S ROOM."
THE COURT: YES, TO THE RIGHT OF THAT.
MR. COCHRAN: TO THE RIGHT OF THAT.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q SO THAT IS THE ROOM YOU MOVED INTO?
SO THIS IS THE ROOM FROM WHICH YOU WOULD BE THE WOMAN OF THE HOUSE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU WERE DESCRIBING FOR US THAT YOUR DAD WOULD TRAVEL A LOT EVEN WHEN THERE WAS NO FOOTBALL SEASON; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND WOULD YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT HIS TRAVEL? DID HE TELL YOU WHEN HE WAS LEAVING?
A SOMETIMES.
Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHY HE WAS TRAVELING, WHAT HE WAS DOING DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY.
THE COURT: THAT IS VAGUE, COUNSEL.
MR. COCHRAN: COUNSEL IS CORRECT. YOU ARE CORRECT.
LET ME REPHRASE THAT.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF TRIPS HE WAS TAKING DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME AFTER, SAY, JANUARY OF 1994?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT KIND OF TRIPS WERE THEY? BUSINESS TRIPS?
A SOME WERE BUSINESS AND SOME WERE PLEASURE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HE WOULD GO VARIOUS PLACES?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND HE WOULD DO THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS?
A YES.
Q LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR DAD'S TRAVELING HABITS, AS YOU KNEW THEM, AND WE ARE TALKING NOW THE PERIOD AFTER JANUARY OF 1994. LET'S SAY BETWEEN THE PERIOD OF JANUARY AND JUNE OF 1994.
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN AROUND WHEN YOUR DAD WAS GETTING READY TO LEAVE FOR A TRIP?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US ANY PARTICULAR THINGS ABOUT HIS GETTING READY, HIS PACKING HABITS AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, VAGUE, THE TIME.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: HE WOULD USUALLY DO EVERYTHING LAST MINUTE.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU HAVE SEEN THIS YOURSELF?
A YES.
Q DESCRIBE THAT, DOING THINGS LAST MINUTE.
A UMM, WELL, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN ONGOING JOKE WITHIN THE FAMILY THAT WE WOULD ALWAYS SAY, DAD, YOU WOULD HAVE TO GET READY AND HE WOULD ALWAYS SAY, I WOULD BE GET READY BEFORE YOU WOULD BE.
AND I WOULD ALWAYS PREPARE AN HOUR BEFORE AND HE WILL GET DRESSED IN THE LAST FIFTEEN MINUTES BEFORE WE WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE. HE HAS DONE THIS FOR YEARS.
Q THAT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE SEEN AS YOU WERE GROWING UP?
A YES.
Q THERE WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE A RACE TO SEE WHO WAS READY FIRST, BUT HE WOULD START MUCH BEHIND YOU?
A YES.
Q YOU HAVE SEEN THAT HAPPEN OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, HAVE YOU?
A YES.
Q NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO SHIFT OUR ATTENTION NOW.
YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT WHEN YOU FIRST CAME BACK OR TALKED TO YOUR DAD ABOUT COMING BACK YOU HAD MET A LADY BY THE NAME OF PAULA BARBIERI AND SHE WAS PRESENT DURING THIS CONVERSATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q HAD YOU KNOWN HER BEFORE THE TIME YOU CAME OVER AND TALKED TO YOUR DAD BEFORE YOU MOVED BACK IN?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHEN IT WAS THAT YOU FIRST MET MISS PAULA BARBIERI?
A IT WAS IN '92.
Q AND UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES, IF YOU RECALL, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO MEET HER?
A UMM, WHEN WE WOULD HAVE PHONE CONVERSATIONS WHEN I WAS AT SCHOOL AND HE TOLD ME HE HAD MET SOMEBODY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THEN SO YOU HAD A CONVERSATION AND YOU CAME WEST.
DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO ATTEND ANY PARTICULAR EVENT WHERE YOU HAD OCCASION TO FORMALLY MEET MISS BARBIERI?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT WAS THAT OCCASION?
A UMM, PAULA HAD THROWN MY FATHER A BIRTHDAY PARTY ON JULY 9TH, WHICH WAS YESTERDAY, BUT IN '94.
Q THAT IS HIS BIRTHDAY, JULY 9TH?
A YES.
Q AND THIS PARTY WAS IN 1992?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND IS THAT WHEN YOU --
A YEAH.
Q DID YOU MEET HER AT THAT TIME?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHERE DID THIS BIRTHDAY PARTY TAKE PLACE?
A AT OUR HOUSE.
Q THE HOUSE? YOU MEAN THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q THAT IS ALWAYS THE HOUSE, RIGHT?
A YES, SORRY.
Q THERE WAS A BIRTHDAY PARTY ON JULY 9TH, 1992, HIS BIRTHDAY, WHEN YOU FIRST MET HER?
A YES.
Q NOW, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO DISCUSS WITH YOUR DAD HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH PAULA BARBIERI? AND YOU CAN ANSWER THAT YES OR NO.
A YES.
Q AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THOSE KIND OF THINGS?
A YES.
Q AND DURING THE TIME SINCE YOU WERE AN ADULT DURING THIS TIME AND AFTER THE TIME YOU MOVED BACK INTO THE HOUSE, WOULD YOU HAVE OCCASION TO DISCUSS WITH YOUR DAD VARIOUS SUBJECTS, SERIOUS SUBJECTS SUCH AS RELATIONSHIPS?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO DISCUSS WITH HIM HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH PAULA BARBIERI?
A YES.
Q AT ANY TIME DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO DISCUSS WITH HIM HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q NOW, I WANT TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO THE WEEK OF JUNE 6, 1994.
ON THAT PARTICULAR WEEK DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT YOUR FATHER WAS HOME THE ENTIRE WEEK OR WAS HE AWAY DURING PART OF THE TIME OR WHAT WAS THE CIRCUMSTANCES?
A WHAT YEAR WAS THIS?
Q THE WEEK OF JUNE 6, 1994.
DO YOU RECALL WHETHER YOUR FATHER WENT OUT OF TOWN AT ALL THAT WEEK?
A HE HAD BEEN COMING AND GOING, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AGAIN, WAS THAT LIKE A REGULAR WEEK FOR HIM?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU BECAME AWARE THAT SOMETIME DURING THAT WEEK HE LEFT AND WENT OUT OF TOWN; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, PRIOR TO THAT TIME, THE TIME WE ARE NOW TALKING ABOUT, JUNE 6TH OR THEREABOUTS, DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOUR DAD AND NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON STOPPED SEEING EACH OTHER AGAIN, IF YOU RECALL?
A YES.
Q WAS THAT SOMETIME AFTER MOTHER'S DAY OF 1994?
A YES.
Q AROUND THAT TIME?
A IT WAS AROUND, YEAH, MOTHER'S DAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DURING THE TIME -- YOU HAVE TOLD US THAT DURING THE TIME THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS SEEING NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON HE WAS NOT SEEING PAULA BARBIERI; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND AFTER THIS TIME WHEN MR. SIMPSON, YOUR FATHER, WAS NO LONGER SEEING MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO AGAIN SEE PAULA BARBIERI?
A YES.
Q WAS THAT AFTER THEY -- HE HAD BROKEN UP WITH NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q AND AGAIN, WOULD THAT BE AFTER MOTHER'S DAY OR SO IN MAY OF 1994 THAT YOU SAW PAULA AGAIN?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO DISCUSS THE VARIOUS THINGS THAT WERE TAKING PLACE IN YOUR FATHER'S LIFE AT THAT TIME WITH HIM AT ALL?
A YES.
Q YOU WERE SOMEBODY HE WOULD COME AND TALK WITH?
A YES.
Q PRIOR TO -- STRIKE THAT.
BACK TO THIS PARTICULAR WEEK THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, THE WEEK OF JUNE 6, 1994, YOU HAD DESCRIBE FOR US THAT YOU BECAME AWARE THAT YOUR DAD WENT OUT OF TOWN THAT PARTICULAR WEEK.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A PARDON ME?
Q YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT YOUR DAD WENT OUT OF TOWN DURING THE WEEK OF JUNE 6TH, 1994?
A YES.
Q PRIOR TO THAT, BEFORE THE JUNE 6TH WEEK, DO YOU RECALL A TIME THAT AFTER YOUR DAD AND MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WERE NO LONGER DATING THAT SHE BECAME SICK WITH PNEUMONIA?
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A YES.
Q WAS THAT IN THE MONTH OF MAY, AFTER THEY HAD BROKEN UP?
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. IT IS ALL LEADING.
MR. COCHRAN: I AM ASKING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR.
Q WHEN WAS THAT WHEN SHE CAME DOWN WITH PNEUMONIA, IF YOU RECALL, YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION?
A SOMETIME IN THE MONTH OF MAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
TELL US WHAT YOU OBSERVED WITH REGARD TO THAT. DID YOU EVER SEE HER AT THE HOUSE, THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE, DURING THIS TIME FRAME?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WERE YOU AWARE OF HER BEING AT THE BUNDY LOCATION?
A YES.
Q WERE YOU AWARE OF WHETHER OR NOT YOUR FATHER DID ANYTHING IN TAKING CARE OF HER?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY, NO FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
FOUNDATION SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO WHETHER OR NOT YOUR FATHER CARED FOR MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WHEN SHE HAD PNEUMONIA, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? WHAT WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, LEADING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY.
Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO SEE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON DURING THIS TIME OF TIME WHEN SHE WAS SICK?
A YES.
Q WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT FOR US AND TELL US WHERE YOU SAW HER.
A I SAW HER ONCE AT JUSTIN'S GRADUATION AND THEN I WENT OVER TO HER HOUSE ONE DAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN YOU SAY WENT OVER TO HER HOUSE, YOU WENT TO THE BUNDY LOCATION?
A YES.
Q YOU BECAME AWARE THAT SHE WAS SICK?
A YES.
Q WHAT WAS HER AILMENT AT THIS TIME?
A SHE HAD PNEUMONIA.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO THAT, WERE YOU AWARE OF WHETHER OR NOT YOUR FATHER DID ANYTHING OR VISITED HER DURING THIS PARTICULAR PERIOD OF TIME?
A YES.
Q TELL US WHAT YOU OBSERVED IN THAT REGARD?
A HE WENT OVER TO HER HOUSE ONE DAY TO
HELP --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, NO FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: HE WENT OVER TO THE HOUSE TO HELP HER ONE DAY WITH THE KIDS AND TO BRING HER SOME SOUP AND MEDICINE TO SEE IF SHE WAS OKAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THIS WAS DURING THE TIME AFTER THEY HAD BROKEN UP WHILE SHE WAS SICK; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, BACK AGAIN TO THIS WEEK OF JUNE 6TH, ON THIS PARTICULAR WEEK DID YOU BECOME AWARE, TOWARD THE END OF THE WEEK, SPECIFICALLY I GUESS AROUND FRIDAY, JUNE 10TH, DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF YOUR FATHER COMING BACK TO CALIFORNIA?
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL WHEN YOU SAW HIM IN AND AROUND THAT PERIOD OF TIME, JUNE 10, JUNE 11, IF AT ALL?
A I DON'T BELIEVE THAT I SAW HIM ON THAT DAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
A NOT IN PERSON.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WERE AWARE HE WAS BACK IN TOWN, HOWEVER?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT YOU SAW HIM AT ALL ON THE SATURDAY WHICH I THINK WOULD BE THE 11TH OF JUNE?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND ON SUNDAY, JUNE 12, 1994, DID YOU SPEND THE PREVIOUS NIGHT, THE SATURDAY NIGHT, IN YOUR RESIDENCE IN YOUR ROOM THERE ON PEOPLE'S 66 AS INDICATED?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU HAVE OCCASION ON THAT MORNING TO GET UP AND GO SOMEPLACE?
A YES.
Q WHERE DID YOU GO AT THAT TIME?
A I WENT TO CHURCH.
Q WHAT CHURCH DO YOU GO TO?
A ST. MARTIN'S.
Q THAT IS A CHURCH OUT NEAR -- IN BRENTWOOD THERE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AFTER YOU WENT TO CHURCH -- WHAT TIME DID YOU GO TO CHURCH?
A I WENT TO CHURCH AT 10:00.
Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO RETURN HOME AFTER THAT?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE YOUR FATHER AT ALL THAT MORNING?
A NO.
Q WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN -- DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT THAT POINT?
A NO.
Q DID YOU KNOW HE WAS BACK IN TOWN?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT?
A BECAUSE GIGI HAD TOLD ME, THE HOUSEKEEPER, THAT DAD WAS COMING IN TOWN ON FRIDAY AND THAT HE WOULD BE LEAVING AT THE END OF THE WEEK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THE HOUSEKEEPER?
A YES.
Q HER NAME IS GIGI?
A YES.
Q HER LAST NAME IS GUARIN?
A YES.
Q IS THAT GUARIN, GIGI GUARIN?
A I BELIEVE SO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU WENT TO CHURCH AND YOU CAME BACK HOME, AND AFTER YOU WENT TO CHURCH DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO GO OUT?
A YES.
Q AND WERE YOU OUT PRETTY MUCH THE WHOLE DAY?
A YES.
Q AND NOW, YOU -- DO YOU HAVE A CAR?
A YES.
Q A VEHICLE?
AND WHAT KIND OF VEHICLE DID YOU HAVE?
A A SAAB.
Q WHAT COLOR IS THAT?
A BLACK.
Q WHAT YEAR IS THAT?
A '94.
Q WHEN DID YOU GET THAT CAR?
A IN '93.
Q DID YOU HAVE THAT CAR WHEN YOU CAME BACK TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE OR DID YOU GET IT AFTER YOU GOT THERE OR WHEN DID YOU GET IT, IF YOU RECALL?
A CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?
Q CERTAINLY.
DID YOU HAVE THAT CAR WHEN YOU MOVED BACK IN WITH YOUR DAD IN MARCH OF 1993?
A YES.
Q HAD THAT CAR BEEN A GRADUATION PRESENT FOR YOU?
A YES.
Q SO WHERE WAS THAT CAR? WHERE DID YOU TRADITIONALLY PARK THAT CAR WHEN YOU WERE HOME AT THE RESIDENCE? CAN YOU SHOW US THAT?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: AGAIN WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION?
THE COURT: YES.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE IS LOOKING AGAIN AT PEOPLE'S 66, YOUR HONOR?
THE WITNESS: WHERE THIS RED DOT IS, (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: SHE IS POINTING TOWARD A RED DOT ON PEOPLE'S 66 AND IT IS ABOVE THE WORDS "DRIVEWAY" ON THE DIAGRAM.
THE COURT: YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU PARKED YOUR CAR TRADITIONALLY THERE?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US IS THERE A PLACE ON THE DIAGRAM WHERE THE BENTLEY WAS NORMALLY PARKED, AND THAT IS THE BLACK BENTLEY YOU TALKED ABOUT EARLIER?
A RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: SHE HAS POINTED TO AN ABOVE THE WORD "DRIVE" ON PEOPLE'S 66.
THE COURT: YES, TO THE LEFT OF THE RED DOT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: IS THAT WHERE YOU PARKED YOUR CAR, USUALLY WHERE THE BENTLEY WAS PARKED?
A YES. WE BOTH PARKED OUR CARS HERE, (INDICATING).
Q IN THAT KIND OF LITTLE INSET AREA?
A YES.
Q BOTH OF YOU TRIED TO PARK YOUR CARS IN THAT LOCATION?
A YES.
Q THE BENTLEY, AS I UNDERSTAND YOUR TESTIMONY, WOULD BE IN FRONT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO WHEN YOU LEFT THE HOUSE ON SUNDAY, JUNE 12TH, AFTER YOU HAD COME BACK FROM CHURCH, HOW DID YOU LEAVE? DID YOU LEAVE IN YOUR CAR? HOW DID YOU LEAVE?
A I LEFT IN MY CAR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU DID NOT RETURN UNTIL WHAT TIME?
A APPROXIMATELY AROUND BETWEEN 12:30 AND 1:00.
Q IS THAT A.M.?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HAD YOU BEEN TO A MOVIE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU RETURNED HOME ABOUT 12:30 OR 1:00; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU RETURNED HOME, YOU DIDN'T SEE YOUR DAD, DID YOU?
A NO.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, LEADING.
THE COURT: IT WILL STAND.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU SEE YOUR DAD?
A NO.
Q AND WERE YOU AWARE OF WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS GOING TO GO OUT OF TOWN AGAIN?
A YES.
Q AND IF YOU CAN JUST TELL US HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT?
A PRIOR TO GIGI TELLING ME --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: THE ANSWER IS STRICKEN. THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD THAT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO YOU KNEW IT ONLY FROM TALKING TO SOMEONE ELSE, BUT YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOURSELF?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: SAME OBJECTION.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M ASKING, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
I MEAN OVERRULED. PROCEED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
Q SO YOU RETURNED HOME AND WAS ANYONE AT HOME WHEN YOU RETURNED HOME AFTER 12:30 ON NOW JUNE 13, 1994?
A YES.
Q AND WHO WAS HOME?
A KATO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
ANYBODY ELSE THAT YOU ARE AWARE WAS THERE?
A NO.
THE COURT: I THINK WE KNOW WHO SHE IS TALKING ABOUT, BUT SINCE WE HAVE TWO KATOS HERE --
THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY, KATO KAELIN.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: KATO THE HUMAN BEING?
A YES.
Q KATO KAELIN. ALL RIGHT.
WHEN YOU RETURNED HOME, WHERE DID YOU GO AT THAT POINT, IF YOU RECALL?
A TO MY ROOM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THAT IS ARNELLE'S ROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THEN DO YOU KNOW ABOUT -- DID YOU AT SOME POINT GO TO SLEEP?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME APPROXIMATELY YOU WENT TO BED, WENT TO SLEEP?
A IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN AROUND ONE O'CLOCK. BETWEEN 1:00 AND 1:30.
Q WHEN YOU RETURNED HOME DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL AT ALL ABOUT THE RESIDENCE?
A NO.
Q NOW, IF YOU WENT TO BED AND WENT TO SLEEP ABOUT 1:00, 1:30 OR THEREABOUTS, DID THERE COME A TIME THAT YOU WERE AWAKENED ON THE MORNING HOURS OF JUNE 13, 1994?
A YES.
Q DESCRIBE FOR THE COURT AND JURY THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT YOU WERE AWAKENED, MA'AM, IF YOU RECALL.
A UMM, I WAS AWAKENED AROUND BETWEEN 5:00 AND 5:30 BY TWO GENTLEMEN KNOCKING AT MY DOOR.
Q AND THESE GENTLEMEN KNOCKING AT YOUR DOOR, WHAT DID THEY SAY, IF YOU RECALL?
A THEY JUST -- THEY WERE KNOCKING ON MY DOOR AND THEY SAID THAT THEY HAD BEEN OUTSIDE RINGING THE BELL AND THAT THEY NEEDED TO SPEAK WITH SOMEBODY WHO LIVED AT THE HOUSE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
I PRESUME, HAVING BEEN IN BED, YOU WERE ATTIRED IN YOUR PAJAMAS OR WHATEVER?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU GET UP AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q AND THEN TELL US WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT POINT.
A UMM, THEY HAD TOLD ME THAT THEY NEEDED TO GET IN TOUCH WITH MY FATHER AND IF I KNEW WHERE HE WAS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHAT DID YOU SAY IN RESPONSE TO THAT?
A I SAID THAT, UMM, HE WASN'T HOME BUT I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE HE WAS BUT I KNEW HOW TO GET IN TOUCH WITH HIM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THEN WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
A UMM, WE LEFT OUT OF MY ROOM AND I WENT TO -- TO GO TO GET MY PHONE BOOK TO GET IN TOUCH WITH SOMEBODY WHO WOULD KNOW WHERE MY DAD WAS.
Q WHEN YOU SAY YOU WENT TO GET YOUR PHONE BOOK, I PRESUME YOU DIDN'T HAVE YOUR PHONE BOOK WITH YOU AT THAT POINT?
A NO, IT WASN'T.
Q WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION, DID YOU GO TO SOME LOCATION TO GET YOUR PHONE BOOK?
A YES.
Q YOU WERE TALKING TO TWO MEN, WERE YOU?
A YES.
Q THESE TWO PEOPLE, WERE THEY LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT DETECTIVES?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW THEIR NAMES NOW?
A I BELIEVE PHILLIPS AND LANGE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE PERSON YOU THINK IS LANGE FOR US?
A LANGE WOULD BE THE SALT AND PEPPER, HE HAS MORE HAIR ON HIM, AND I THINK PHILLIPS IS THE ONE WITH THE MUSTACHE AND THE BALD HEAD.
Q YOU MAY HAVE THEM REVERSED. THERE WAS ONE WITH A BALD HEAD?
A YES.
Q LET'S CALL HIM LANGE.
A YES.
Q PHILLIPS, DESCRIBE HIM AGAIN.
A SALT AND PEPPER HAIR, OLDER, BIGGER BUILD.
Q LET'S FOR THE TIME BEING CALL HIM PHILLIPS?
A I SWITCHED.
Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION THEN -- WOULD YOU STEP DOWN AND I WANT YOU TO SHOW THE JURY AND THE COURT THE ROUTE THAT YOU TOOK AS YOU SOUGHT TO GET THIS NUMBER SO YOU COULD TRY TO FIND YOUR FATHER.
YOU COULD STEP ALL THE WAY DOWN IF YOU WANT.
A (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
YOU WANT ME TO DO WHAT?
Q THE QUESTION IS CAN YOU LOOK AT THIS DIAGRAM AND DRAW WITH THE POINTER THE ROUTE THAT YOU TOOK AS YOU WENT TO GET YOUR BOOK TO GET THE NUMBER TO CALL -- LOCATE YOUR DAD?
A OKAY.
OUT OF HERE, (INDICATING), THIS WAY.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
YOUR HONOR, SHE IS LEAVING, YOUR HONOR, THE AREA MARKED "ARNELLE'S ROOM" AND SHE WALKS WEST TO AN AREA WITH SOME STAIRS. SHE GOES UP THE STAIRS AND PROCEEDS PAST THE POOL.
Q IS THAT RIGHT?
A UH-HUH.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE WENT AROUND THE NORTH SIDE OF THE HOUSE TO AN AREA MARKED "DRIVEWAY" AGAIN ON PEOPLE'S 66.
Q AND YOU WENT TO AN AREA MARKED "ENTRANCE."
NOW, IS THAT THE ENTRANCE TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU GOT TO THAT ENTRANCE, MA'AM?
A I WENT OVER HERE TO THE KITCHEN, THROUGH THE KITCHEN TO THE PHONE HERE AND THEN WALKED THROUGH HERE, (INDICATING), TO GET TO MY CAR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
LET'S BACK UP FOR A MOMENT.
WHEN YOU WENT TO -- GOT TO THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE THERE, DID YOU HAVE TO DO ANYTHING BEFORE YOU GOT INSIDE THAT RESIDENCE?
A I HAD TO TURN THE ALARM OFF.
Q THERE WAS AN ALARM ON?
A YES.
Q AND YOU TURNED THE ALARM OFF; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU WALKED THAT ROUTE THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED FOR THE COURT AND THE JURY, WAS ANYONE ACCOMPANYING YOU AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q WHO WAS?
A THE TWO DETECTIVES.
Q THE TWO PEOPLE WE DESCRIBED EARLIER?
A YES.
Q LANGE AND PHILLIPS?
A YES.
Q YOU WALKED AROUND AND TOOK THE ALARM OFF BEFORE YOU WENT INSIDE?
A YES.
Q LET ME ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY DID YOU EVER AT ANY TIME WALK FROM YOUR RESIDENCE HERE MARKED "ARNELLE'S ROOM" AND GO THROUGH SOME DOOR HERE AT THE BACK OF THE HOUSE?
A NO.
Q WHEN THE ALARM IS ON IS THAT POSSIBLE?
A NO.
Q CAN'T GO IN THAT WAY; IS THAT RIGHT?
A NO.
Q THE ALARM KEY PAD IS WHERE?
A IN THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE.
Q SO YOU WENT AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE AND TURNED OFF THAT ALARM AND THEN THESE TWO DETECTIVES CAME IN BEHIND YOU; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR THE JURY THAT YOU WENT INTO THE KITCHEN AREA; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q THEY WERE STILL THERE WITH YOU?
A YES.
Q AFTER BEING IN THE KITCHEN AREA YOU LEFT TO GO SOME OTHER PLACE.
A YES.
Q WHY DID YOU LEAVE THE KITCHEN AREA TO GO OUTSIDE?
A TO GET MY PHONE BOOK OUT OF THE TRUNK OF MY CAR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
AND THERE IS A DOOR INDICATED IN THE AREA, YOUR HONOR, NOT MARKED KITCHEN, BUT THERE IS A DOOR ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE ABOVE THE GARAGE AREA THAT SHE -- MISS SIMPSON IS INDICATING SHE WENT OUTSIDE.
THE COURT: ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE HOUSE APPROXIMATELY, OH, 2/5 OF THE WAY UP FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE DIAGRAM.
MR. COCHRAN: VERY GOOD, YOUR HONOR.
Q AND YOU WENT OUTSIDE AND WHERE DID YOU GO?
A TO MY CAR.
Q THAT IS THE BLACK SAAB YOU DESCRIBED?
A YES.
Q WHAT DID YOU GET OUT OF YOUR CAR, IF ANYTHING?
A MY PHONE BOOK.
Q DID THE DETECTIVES COME WITH YOU?
A YES.
Q WHILE YOU WERE TAKING THIS ROUTE OR WHATEVER, DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH THOSE DETECTIVES AT ALL?
A YES.
Q AND AGAIN WILL YOU TELL US -- AND YOU MAY RESUME YOUR SEAT.
A (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
Q WHICH DETECTIVE DID YOU SPEAK WITH, IF YOU RECALL?
A I SPOKE WITH -- I'M CONFUSED WITH THE NAMES.
Q DESCRIBE HIM.
A THE ONE WITH THE MUSTACHE AND THE BALD HEAD.
Q THAT IS THE ONE WE ARE GOING TO CALL LANGE.
A LANGE.
Q AND DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME WHAT DID YOU SAY TO DETECTIVE LANGE?
A I HAD ASKED HIM THAT I REALLY NEEDED TO KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING BECAUSE I WAS NERVOUS AND HE NEEDED TO TELL ME WHAT WAS GOING ON.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID HE RESPOND TO YOU WHAT WAS GOING ON?
A YES.
Q WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU?
A HE HAD TOLD ME THAT NICOLE -- DID I KNOW NICOLE SIMPSON, AND I SAID YES, AND HE SAID THAT SHE HAD BEEN MURDERED AND THAT THERE WAS SOMEBODY ELSE WITH HER.
Q AND WHERE WERE YOU WHEN DETECTIVE LANGE TOLD YOU THAT?
A UMM, RIGHT OUTSIDE IN THE BACK OF MY CAR.
Q THIS IS AFTER YOU HAD COME THROUGH THE KITCHEN AND GONE OUT TO GET THE DAY BOOK?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU HEARD THAT, HOW DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?
A UMM --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I IMMEDIATELY STARTED CRYING AND I HAD ASKED HIM ARE YOU SURE THAT IT WAS NICOLE AND HE SAID YES.
AND I SAID I DON'T -- BASICALLY I WAS JUST SHOCKED. I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
IF YOU KNOW, WAS THE OTHER DETECTIVE STANDING CLOSE TO YOU AT THE TIME THAT DETECTIVE LANGE TOLD YOU THIS OR DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS?
A HE WAS INSIDE THE HOUSE.
Q HE HAD REMAINED INSIDE THE HOUSE WHEN YOU CAME OUTSIDE FOR YOUR DAY BOOK?
A YES.
Q BEFORE WE GO BACK INSIDE THE HOUSE AND AFTER THIS CONVERSATION, WERE THERE ANY OTHER DETECTIVES YOU SAW AROUND THERE AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q AND AT WHAT POINT DID YOU SEE THEM?
A UMM, AFTER I HAD COME BACK INSIDE THE HOUSE AND --
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO I UNDERSTAND THAT INITIALLY WHEN YOU FIRST WERE AWAKENED AND WALKED AROUND YOU ONLY SAW THE TWO; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I SAW THREE.
Q OKAY. YOU SAW ANOTHER ONE?
A YES.
Q WHERE DID YOU SEE THE THIRD ONE?
A UMM, THE THIRD ONE WAS IN FRONT OF KAELIN'S ROOM.
Q KAELIN'S ROOM?
A YEAH.
Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT PERSON OR DO YOU KNOW THAT PERSON'S NAME NOW?
A YES.
Q WHAT IS THAT PERSON'S NAME?
A MARK FUHRMAN.
Q AND WHAT WAS HE DOING IN FRONT OF KAELIN'S ROOM, IF YOU CAN DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT YOU SAW?
A THEY WERE TALKING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN YOU WALK THAT ROUTE PAST KAELIN'S ROOM, WERE THEY TALKING AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT. SO YOU WALK PAST THEM?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER SEE A FOURTH DETECTIVE WHEN YOU WERE ON YOUR WAY UP TO THE FRONT?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE WAS THAT FOURTH DETECTIVE?
A HE WAS FURTHER -- CAN I SHOW YOU?
Q YES. YOU CAN SHOW US IF THAT IS OKAY WITH THE COURT.
THE COURT: YES.
THE WITNESS: LIKE OVER IN THIS AREA, (INDICATING).
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS IN THE AREA THAT IS --
A RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING).
THE COURT: APPEARS TO BE THE PATIO AREA ADJACENT TO THE POOL.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q AND DO YOU KNOW THAT PERSON'S NAME? WAS THAT VANNATTER?
A YES.
Q DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DID YOU SEE VANNATTER, DETECTIVE VANNATTER, AT THAT LOCATION WHEN YOU WERE WALKING UP THE FIRST TIME?
A UH-HUH.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: IS THAT YES?
THE WITNESS: YES, SORRY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
SO AS I UNDERSTAND IT THEN, YOU LEFT YOUR RESIDENCE AND AS YOU WALKED YOU SAW MARK FUHRMAN HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH KATO KAELIN?
A YES.
Q THEY WERE INSIDE THE ROOM OR OUTSIDE THE ROOM?
A KATO WAS STANDING IN HIS DOORWAY AND MR. FUHRMAN WAS STANDING OUTSIDE THE DOOR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU WALKED UP THOSE STAIRS AND AS YOU PROCEEDED ON YOUR WAY HEADING KIND OF NORTHBOUND ON THE PROPERTY, YOU SAW DETECTIVE VANNATTER SOMEWHERE IN THE PATIO AREA BY THE POOL; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q YOU CONTINUED ON WITH LANGE AND WITH PHILLIPS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, AFTER YOU GOT YOUR DAY BOOK OUT OF THE BACK OF YOUR VEHICLE, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO GO SOMEPLACE AT THAT POINT? DID YOU GO SOME PLACE?
A YES.
Q WHERE DID YOU GO?
A I WENT BACK INSIDE THE HOUSE INTO THE KITCHEN.
Q WHEN YOU GOT BACK IN THE KITCHEN, TELL US WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT POINT.
A UMM, THEN I HAD CALLED CATHY RANDA.
Q LET ME STOP YOU THERE. WHO IS CATHY RANDA?
A MY FATHER'S ASSISTANT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU CALLED CATHY RANDA AND WHY DID YOU CALL HER?
A TO FIND OUT WHERE MY FATHER WAS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU ASCERTAIN THAT?
A YES.
Q AND AFTER YOU FOUND OUT WHERE HE WAS, DID YOU COMMUNICATE THAT TO ANY OF THE POLICE OFFICERS, IF YOU RECALL?
A YES.
Q DID YOU TELL -- WHICH OF THE TWO DID YOU TELL? DO YOU REMEMBER IF YOU TOLD LANGE OR PHILLIPS OR WHO DID YOU TELL?
A I BELIEVE I TOLD BOTH OF THEM.
Q YOU TOLD THEM BOTH?
A YES.
Q DID YOU TELL THEM HE WAS IN CHICAGO?
A I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE HE WAS BUT I KNEW HE WAS OUT OF TOWN.
Q YOU FOUND OUT FROM CATHY RANDA WHERE HE WAS?
A YES.
Q YOU THEN TOLD THEM WHERE HE WAS?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AT THIS POINT IN YOUR KITCHEN AREA THERE, TELL THE JURY WHO ALL WAS PRESENT.
A LANGE AND PHILLIPS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AT THIS POINT YOU DIDN'T SEE VANNATTER OR FUHRMAN; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
WHAT DID YOU NEXT SEE HAPPEN WITH REGARD TO THE KITCHEN AREA AND THE PHONES THEREIN?
A UMM, I CALLED CATHY AND TOLD CATHY THAT I HAD SOME -- SOME REALLY BAD NEWS AND THEN I -- UMM, I STARTED TO CRY AND I HANDED THE PHONE OVER TO I BELIEVE LANGE AND THEN THEY HAD A CONVERSATION.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO WHEN YOU SAY "THEY," YOU MEAN DETECTIVE LANGE AND MISS CATHY RANDA HAD A PHONE CONVERSATION?
A AND CATHY RANDA.
Q AFTER THAT -- AGAIN, WHEN YOU SAY LANGE, DO YOU MEAN THE ONE WITH LESS HAIR ON THE TOP AND THE MUSTACHE?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. LEADING, COUNSEL.
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WHEN YOU SAY "LANGE," CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT PERSON?
A THE GUY WITH THE MUSTACHE AND HAIR LOSS. THE ONE WITH THE BALD HEAD.
Q ALL RIGHT. OKAY.
SO THEN AFTER THIS CONVERSATION, AFTER LANGE HAD CONCLUDED THE CONVERSATION WITH CATHY RANDA, DID YOU HEAR OR SEE ONE OF THE POLICE OFFICERS PLACE A PHONE CALL?
A YES.
Q AND DID THAT TAKE PLACE -- HOW SOON AFTER THE CONVERSATION WITH CATHY RANDA?
A UMM, CAN YOU REPEAT THAT QUESTION NOW?
Q OKAY.
AT THE TIME THE CONVERSATION CONCLUDED BETWEEN LANGE AND CATHY RANDA, HOW SOON WAS ANOTHER PHONE CALL MADE IN THAT KITCHEN AREA OR WHEREVER?
A THERE WASN'T A -- NOT ON -- BY THE DETECTIVES.
Q OKAY.
A WE WAITED.
Q OKAY. YOU WAITED?
A YES.
Q DID YOU AT SOME POINT BECOME AWARE THAT ONE OF THE DETECTIVES PHILLIPS OR ONE OF THEM PLACED A CALL TO YOUR FATHER?
A I BELIEVE -- I BELIEVE THAT CATHY HAD CALLED -- SAID THAT SHE CAN GET IN TOUCH WITH MY FATHER AND MY FATHER CALLED THE HOUSE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU THINK HE CALLED THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT WHENEVER THE PHONE CALL CAME IN, WHETHER YOUR DAD -- WHO DID HE SPEAK TO AT THAT POINT, IF YOU RECALL? ONE OF THE DETECTIVES OR YOU OR WHAT?
A HE SPOKE WITH ONE OF THE DETECTIVES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU RECALL WHICH DETECTIVE IT WAS THAT HE SPOKE WITH?
A I DON'T RECALL THAT.
Q COULD YOU HEAR -- YOU COULD HEAR ONE SIDE OF THE CONVERSATION, COULD YOU?
A UMM, YES.
Q AND COULD YOU HEAR WHAT THE DETECTIVE WAS SAYING?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL WHICH DETECTIVE IT WAS AT THIS POINT?
A NO, I DON'T RECALL WHICH DETECTIVE IT WAS.
Q IT WAS ONE OF THOSE TWO?
A YES.
Q EITHER LANGE OR PHILLIPS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND AT THIS POINT WERE YOU PRETTY UPSET?
A VERY.
Q YOU WERE CRYING?
A YES.
Q WERE YOU DISTRAUGHT?
A YES.
Q AND SO YOU HEARD THE CONVERSATION BETWEEN -- YOU HEARD WHAT THE DETECTIVE SAID; IS THAT CORRECT, MA'AM?
A YES.
Q AND AT SOME POINT DURING THAT CONVERSATION DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO SPEAK TO YOUR DAD, MR. O.J. SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q HOW DID THAT -- HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?
A UMM, THE PHONE WAS PASSED OVER TO ME AND MY FATHER HAD ASKED ME WHAT WAS GOING ON.
AND I SAID, "DAD, NICOLE IS DEAD. SHE IS NOT HERE WITH US ANY MORE."
AND HE SAID --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
LET ME REPHRASE THAT.
THE DETECTIVE -- YOU HEARD THE DETECTIVE SAYING SOMETHING INTO THE PHONE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND THEN THE PHONE WAS PASSED OVER TO YOU AT SOME POINT?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU RECOGNIZE THE VOICE OF THE PERSON ON THE OTHER END OF THE PHONE?
A YES.
Q WITHOUT TELLING US WHAT THAT PERSON SAID, WAS THAT YOUR DAD?
A YES.
Q YOU RECOGNIZED HIS VOICE?
A YES.
Q AND HOW DID HE SOUND TO YOU AT THAT POINT?
A VERY UPSET, EMOTIONAL, UMM, CONFUSED.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU THEN HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH YOUR FATHER?
A YES.
Q HOW LONG APPROXIMATELY DID THAT CONVERSATION LAST?
A ABOUT FIVE MINUTES AT THE MOST.
Q WERE YOU STILL ALSO VERY UPSET?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WOULD THIS BE --
THE COURT: YES.
ALL RIGHT.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR MID-MORNING RECESS.
PLEASE REMEMBER ALL MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU.
WE WILL STAND IN RECESS FOR 15.
AND MISS SIMPSON, YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
COME BACK IN FIFTEEN MINUTES, PLEASE.
(RECESS.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
BACK ON THE RECORD.
LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE,
DEPUTY MAGNERA.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
PLEASE BE SEATED.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
AND MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON, WOULD YOU RESUME THE WITNESS STAND, PLEASE.
ALL RIGHT. JUST PULL THE MICROPHONE CLOSER, PLEASE.
AND MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ARE YOU OKAY?
A UH-HUH.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, MISS SIMPSON, JUST BEFORE THE BREAK, WE TOOK OUR BREAK, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A BRIEF FIVE-MINUTE CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH YOUR DAD ON THE PHONE AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US HE APPEARED DISTRAUGHT IN HIS REMARKS TO YOU; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND HOW WERE YOU AT THIS TIME?
A UMM, UPSET, EMOTIONAL, CRYING.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR CONVERSATION WITH THE DETECTIVE WHICH I THINK YOU SAID WAS LANGE, DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT HE SAID TO YOU EXACTLY DURING THIS TIME FRAME.
WHAT DID LANGE SAY TO YOU ABOUT -- ABOUT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S DEATH, ET CETERA?
A HE HAD SAID TO ME THAT NICOLE HAD BEEN MURDERED AND THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER BODY WITH HER.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL HIM SAYING ANYTHING ELSE TO YOU AT THAT TIME?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO AFTER HE MADE THIS STATEMENT AND AFTER THE PHONE HAD BEEN PASSED TO YOU BY THE DETECTIVE AND YOU SPOKE WITH YOUR DAD AND YOU DESCRIBED HOW HE WAS, WHAT THEN HAPPENED AFTER THAT, MA'AM?
A CAN YOU SAY THAT AGAIN?
Q WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
A AFTER --
Q AFTER YOU FINISHED TALKING WITH YOUR DAD, I'M SORRY?
A OH, AT THAT POINT I HAD ASKED IF NICOLE'S MOTHER KNEW AND HE SAID, "NO, DO YOU KNOW HOW TO GET IN TOUCH WITH HER?"
Q WHEN YOU SAID YOU ASKED THAT, WHO DID YOU ASK THAT OF?
A TO LANGE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN HE ASKED YOU WHETHER OR NOT YOU KNEW HOW TO GET IN TOUCH WITH HER, WHAT DID YOU SAY?
A I SAID YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THEN WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT TIME, IF ANYTHING?
A I HAD CALLED JUDY BROWN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU KNEW -- YOU HAD HER NUMBER?
A YES.
Q HAD ANY OF THE DETECTIVES AT THAT POINT ASKED YOU AT ALL ABOUT THE BROWNS AT ALL?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WERE THE FIRST ONE TO BRING THAT UP?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AFTER YOU BROUGHT IT UP, YOU THEN GOT MISS JUDY BROWN ON THE PHONE?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU TALK TO HER OR TRY TO TALK WITH HER?
A YES.
Q DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT YOU DID AND WHAT YOU SAID AT THAT POINT?
A UMM, I CALLED JUDY AND I SAID, "JUDY, I HAVE SOME REALLY BAD NEWS FOR YOU" AND, UMM, I ATTEMPTED TO TELL HER AND I STARTED CRYING AND I GAVE THE PHONE OVER TO LANGE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU COULDN'T COMPLETE THIS CONVERSATION?
A NO.
Q YOU WERE STILL DISTRAUGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU THEN HANDED THE PHONE BACK TO
THE DETECTIVE AND DID YOU HEAR HIS CONVERSATION TO MISS JUDY BROWN?
A UMM, I WAS TOO EMOTIONAL THEN. I WASN'T REALLY LISTENING TO WHAT HE WAS SAYING.
Q BUT AT ANY RATE, YOU KNEW THEY HAD A CONVERSATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q THIS ALL TOOK PLACE IN THE KITCHEN AREA THAT YOU HAVE BEEN DESCRIBING FOR US?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU ARE STILL IN THE KITCHEN AREA?
A YES.
Q NOW, DURING THIS TIME FRAME HAVE YOU SEEN ANY OF THE OTHER OFFICERS? YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US I THINK LANGE AND PHILLIPS AND YOU BEING IN THE KITCHEN AREA.
HAVE YOU SEEN ANY OTHER DETECTIVES INSIDE THE HOUSE AT THIS TIME?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AT SOME POINT IN YOUR CONVERSATION WITH MISS JUDY BROWN, JUDITHA BROWN, RATHER, DID THAT CONVERSATION CONCLUDE?
A YES.
Q AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
A UMM, THEN THE DETECTIVE TOLD ME THAT I NEEDED TO GO PICK UP JUSTIN AND SYDNEY, THAT THEY WERE AT THE POLICE STATION.
Q AND YOUR TWO MINOR SIBLINGS; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND AFTER YOU WERE TOLD THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO, IF ANYTHING?
A UMM, I TOLD THE DETECTIVE THAT, UMM, I COULDN'T GO DO THIS BY MYSELF, THAT I HAD TO CALL SOMEBODY TO HELP ME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU CALL SOMEBODY THEN OR AT SOME LATER TIME?
A UMM, I CALLED AT A LATER TIME.
Q OKAY.
NOW, HOW WERE YOU DRESSED WHEN YOU WERE IN THE KITCHEN AREA? WHO WERE YOU ATTIRED AT THAT POINT?
A I HAD ON PAJAMAS.
Q BECAUSE YOU JUST GOT UP?
A YES.
Q DID YOU REMAIN IN THE KITCHEN AFTER THEY HAD INDICATED YOU SHOULD PICK UP YOUR BROTHER AND SISTER?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHERE DID YOU GO, IF YOU RECALL?
A I WENT TO GO INTO MY ROOM AND THE PHONE RANG THEN.
Q WENT BACK TO YOUR ROOM?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND WHEN YOU GOT THERE THE PHONE RANG?
A YES, BUT IT WAS ON MY WAY TO THE ROOM -- TO MY ROOM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU ANSWER THE PHONE?
A YES.
Q AND WHO WAS IT?
A MY FATHER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOUR FATHER CALLED BACK?
A YES.
Q AND THEN YOU HAD A -- THIS WOULD BE A SECOND CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT WAS SAID, BUT HOW DID HE APPEAR TO YOU DURING THIS CONVERSATION? WHAT WAS HIS DEMEANOR?
A HE WAS VERY UPSET. HE WAS CRYING. HE WAS SAYING, "ARNELLE, I DON'T UNDERSTAND."
THE COURT: HOLD ON.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU CAN'T TELL US --
A SORRY. HE WAS SAYING -- HE WAS VERY UPSET, EMOTIONAL.
Q HAVE YOU EVER AT ANY TIME IN YOUR THEN 25 YEARS HEARD YOUR FATHER SOUND LIKE THAT?
A NO.
Q THIS CONVERSATION, WHERE DID YOU TAKE THAT PHONE? WHERE DID YOU TAKE THAT -- HAVE THAT CONVERSATION?
A I HAD THE CONVERSATION IN THE T.V. ROOM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THE T.V. ROOM IS A ROOM THAT IS -- WOULD HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE RESIDENCE, THAT IS OFF THE -- WELL, YOU TELL US, WHERE IS THE T.V. ROOM?
A IT WOULD BE SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE, (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, SHE IS POINTING TO THE CENTER OF THE AREA OF THE HOUSE TO THE RIGHT OF THE AREA MARKED "ENTRANCE."
Q IT IS IN A LINE WHERE YOU COME IN THE FRONT DOOR BUT FURTHER BACK IN THE HOUSE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q IS THAT A ROOM THAT HAS LIKE THREE T.V.'S IN A WALL?
A YES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN, LET ME SEE YOU AND MISS CLARK FOR JUST A MOMENT WITHOUT THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY PROCEED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: TALKING ABOUT DESCRIBING THE THREE T.V.'S IN THE T.V. ROOM.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q THE CONVERSATION, THIS SECOND CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH YOUR DAD WAS IN THE T.V. ROOM, THERE IS A PHONE THEREIN?
A YES.
Q YOU WERE ON YOUR WAY BACK TO YOUR ROOM WHEN THE PHONE RANG AND YOU THEN PICKED IT UP?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT. YOU DESCRIBED HIS DEMEANOR.
NOW, YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT HE SAID BUT DID YOU TELL -- WHAT DID YOU TELL YOUR DAD AT THAT TIME WITH REGARD TO WHAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD YOU?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: LET ME ASK IT ANOTHER WAY:
DID YOU SAY SOMETHING TO YOUR DAD DURING THIS CONVERSATION?
A YES.
Q AND IN THE COURSE OF TALKING TO YOUR DAD DID YOU TELL YOUR DAD --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY.
MR. COCHRAN: I CAN'T FINISH THE QUESTION.
Q DID YOU TELL YOUR DAD WHAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD YOU? YOU CAN ANSWER THAT YES OR NO.
A YES.
Q AND YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT HE SAID.
DID YOU TELL HIM EVERYTHING THE POLICE HAD TOLD YOU?
A YES.
Q AND AFTER YOU FINISHED TALKING WITH YOUR DAD AND TELLING HIM WHAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD YOU, HE WAS UPSET AND DISTRAUGHT AS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, HOW LONG DID THIS CONVERSATION LAST, THIS SECOND CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD?
A IT WAS FIVE TO TEN MINUTES.
Q AND ON THIS OCCASION DID HE TALK TO ANY DETECTIVES AT ALL, IF YOU KNOW?
A NO.
Q DID HE REMAIN DISTRAUGHT THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION?
A YES.
Q WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN, DURING THAT CONVERSATION, WHEN YOUR DAD WAS COMING HOME?
A NO.
Q YOU KNEW HE WAS OUT OF TOWN AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU BECOME AWARE AT SOME POINT THAT HE WAS COMING HOME IMMEDIATELY?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN WAS THAT?
A UMM, LATER ON THAT MORNING.
Q ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT.
SO THEN AFTER THIS CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD, THIS SECOND ONE, DID YOU THEN -- THAT CONVERSATION WAS CONCLUDED AT SOME POINT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q WHERE DID YOU NEXT GO?
A I WENT INTO MY ROOM TO CHANGE AND I MADE SOME PHONE CALLS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR ROOM?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU CHANGE CLOTHES?
A YES.
Q AND WHO DID YOU CALL AT THAT POINT?
A I CALLED A.C., AL COWLINGS. I CALLED MY MOTHER. I CALLED MY BROTHER AND I CALLED A FRIEND.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THESE CALLS YOU ALL MADE FROM YOUR ROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q THAT WAS YOUR PHONE?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU TALKED TO YOUR DAD THIS SECOND TIME, HAD THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THE CHILDREN AND THEIR WHEREABOUTS, HAD THAT COME UP AT ALL?
A YES.
Q SO THE TWO OF YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT?
A YES.
Q AGAIN, WITH REGARD TO THE CHILDREN, DID YOU SHARE WITH YOUR DAD WHAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD YOU ABOUT THE LOCATION OF THE CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q DID YOU TELL YOUR DAD THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GET THE KIDS?
A YES.
Q AND SO WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR ROOM YOU MADE THESE PHONE CALLS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU MENTIONED CALLING A MR. COWLINGS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND WHY DID YOU CALL HIM?
A BECAUSE I WANTED HIM TO GO WITH ME TO GO PICK UP JUSTIN AND SYDNEY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU TALK TO YOUR BROTHER, JASON?
A YES.
Q AND YOU MENTIONED TALKING TO A FRIEND NAMED JOANA?
A NO.
Q WEREN'T YOU TALKING TO A FRIEND AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU FINISHED THESE CONVERSATIONS, YOU WERE DRESSED, WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
A UMM, I CAME BACK INSIDE THE HOUSE AND AT THAT TIME A.C. WAS ON HIS WAY IN. A.C. SPOKE WITH TWO OF THE DETECTIVES AND THEN THE DETECTIVES TOLD A.C. WHERE THE KIDS WERE AND THEN HIM AND I WENT TO GO PICK UP SYDNEY AND JUSTIN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO NOW THAT WE ARE CLEAR, A.C. IS MR. ALLAN COWLINGS THAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q HE DID ARRIVE AND ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT HE ARRIVED?
A IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN AROUND 6:30, A QUARTER TO 7:00.
Q ALL RIGHT.
TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION WHAT TIME DID THE POLICE FIRST COME TO YOUR DOOR, IF YOU KNOW?
A BETWEEN 5:00 AND 5:30.
Q A.M.?
A A.M.
Q NOW, WHEN YOU LEFT THE KITCHEN AREA ON THE WAY THROUGH THE FAMILY ROOM AREA AND HAD THIS SECOND CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD, DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER POLICE OFFICERS IN THE HOUSE AT THAT TIME?
A NO.
Q WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR ROOM DID YOU SEE ANY POLICE OFFICERS OUTSIDE AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q DESCRIBE FOR THE JURY WHAT YOU SAW AND WHERE THEY WERE LOCATED.
A I SAW FUHRMAN AND KATO.
Q WHERE WERE THEY?
A UMM, STANDING A LITTLE BIT FURTHER FROM THE ROOM THAT KATO WAS STAYING IN.
Q IN WHICH DIRECTION, MISS SIMPSON?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q YOU CAN STEP ALL THE WAY DOWN IF YOU NEED TO.
A (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: SHE IS NOW INDICATING AN AREA, YOUR HONOR, NEAR THE STAIRS AND NEAR THE AREA DEPICTING THE STAIRS, PARTIALLY IN THE PATIO AREA.
THE COURT: APPEARS TO BE IN THE SOUTHERN MOST PORTION OF THE POOL PATIO AREA.
MR. COCHRAN: YES.
Q THEY WERE STANDING AT THAT LOCATION?
A YES.
Q DID THEY STILL APPEAR TO BE TALKING?
A YES.
Q THEY WERE STILL OUTSIDE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN YOU LEFT OUT OF THE HOUSE DID YOU LEAVE LANGE AND PHILLIPS INSIDE YOUR FATHER'S HOUSE?
A YES.
Q WAS THERE ANYBODY ELSE AT HOME AT THAT TIME?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HOW LONG WERE YOU OUT IN YOUR ROOM GETTING READY AND MAKING THESE PHONE CALLS?
A TEN TO FIFTEEN MINUTES.
Q AFTER YOU GOT DRESSED AND FINISHED THE PHONE CALLS, YOU CAME BACK INSIDE THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT ROUTE DID YOU TAKE COMING BACK INTO THE HOUSE, IF YOU RECALL?
A UMM, THROUGH THE BACK DOOR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HAD YOU OPENED THAT BACK DOOR YOURSELF WHEN YOU WENT OUT?
A YES.
Q AFTER YOU FINISHED THE CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD IN THE FAMILY ROOM, YOU WENT OUT THROUGH THE BACK DOOR?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU POINT ON THE DIAGRAM AGAIN, PEOPLE'S 66, WHERE THAT BACK DOOR IS?
A RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
SHE IS INDICATING, YOUR HONOR, AGAIN ON THE EASTERN MOST PART OF THE RESIDENCE, AN AREA WHICH I PRESUME APPEARS TO BE A DOOR LEADING FROM THE RESIDENCE.
THE COURT: YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO AT THAT POINT THERE WERE ONLY TWO OFFICERS LEFT IN THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AFTER YOU FINISHED AND YOU CAME BACK IN AFTER TEN OR FIFTEEN MINUTES, WHERE DID YOU GO BEFORE YOU MET MR. A.C. COWLINGS?
A BACK TO THE KITCHEN.
Q BACK IN THE KITCHEN AREA?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU GOT BACK THERE, WHO WAS PRESENT?
A NOBODY WAS IN THE KITCHEN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHERE WERE THE DETECTIVES AT THAT POINT, IF YOU KNOW?
A I DIDN'T KNOW.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU JUST WENT BACK IN THE KITCHEN BY YOURSELF AT THIS POINT?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE LANGE?
A NO.
Q DID YOU SEE PHILLIPS?
A NO.
Q WHERE WAS FUHRMAN AT THAT POINT, IF YOU KNOW?
A UMM, IN THE BACK SPEAKING WITH KATO.
Q STILL IN THAT SAME AREA THAT YOU DESCRIBED THERE?
A YES.
Q WHERE WAS VANNATTER AT THAT POINT?
A UMM, I DON'T KNOW.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THE KITCHEN BEFORE YOU BECAME AWARE OF MR. COWLING'S PRESENCE?
A VERY SHORTLY, RIGHT AFTER THAT.
Q HE APPEARED?
A IN THE KITCHEN.
Q AND YOU SAW HIM IN THE KITCHEN?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU GO AND FIND A DETECTIVE AT THAT POINT?
A UMM, NO.
Q OR DID A DETECTIVE COME IN THERE?
WHAT HAPPENED?
A ONE OF THE DETECTIVES CAME BACK INSIDE THE KITCHEN.
Q OKAY.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHICH ONE IT WAS? CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIM?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS LANGE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN HE CAME BACK IN, WAS THERE A BRIEF CONVERSATION BETWEEN DETECTIVE LANGE AND MR. A.C. COWLINGS?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THAT CONVERSATION DEAL WITH PICKING UP THE CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THEN HOW MUCH TIME PAST BEFORE YOU LEFT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE THAT MORNING TO GO AND TRY TO PICK UP YOUR BROTHER AND SISTER?
A BETWEEN FIFTEEN AND TWENTY MINUTES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS IT THEN BY NOW THAT YOU WERE ABOUT READY TO LEAVE?
A UMM, IT I HAD TO HAVE BEEN AROUND SEVEN O'CLOCK, 7:15.
Q AGAIN THESE ARE YOUR BEST ESTIMATES?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU AND MR. COWLINGS LEAVE AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU GO TO THE POLICE STATION?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU ARRANGE TO PICK UP THE CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q YOU DID PICK THEM UP?
A YES.
Q AFTER YOU PICKED THE CHILDREN UP, WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?
A WE WENT BACK TO 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM.
Q TO YOUR HOME, ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
Q KEEP YOUR VOICE UP.
A THANKS.
Q SO DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU ACTUALLY LEFT ROCKINGHAM TO GO PICK UP THE CHILDREN?
A IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN AROUND SEVEN O'CLOCK, MAYBE 7:15.
Q NOW, WHEN YOU LEFT YOU'VE ALREADY DESCRIBED FOR US THAT THE HOUSEKEEPER WAS NOT THERE AT THAT POINT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A NO.
Q WAS THERE ANY OTHER ADULT, OTHER THAN KATO KAELIN, IN AND AROUND 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM AT THE TIME THAT YOU LEFT, OTHER THAN THE POLICE OFFICERS?
A NO.
Q AND WHEN YOU LEFT WERE THERE FOUR POLICE OFFICERS THERE AND MR. KATO KAELIN WAS SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE THE FOUR DETECTIVES AND WHERE THEY WERE WHEN YOU LEFT?
A NO.
Q SO NOW WHEN YOU RETURNED BACK TO ROCKINGHAM, ABOUT WHAT TIME IS IT NOW?
A BETWEEN 7:15 AND 7:30.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN YOU COME BACK, IS IT YOU, THE CHILDREN AND MR. COWLINGS?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHERE DID YOU GO WHEN YOU COME BACK IN?
A TO THE KITCHEN.
Q DO YOU SEE ANYBODY INSIDE THE KITCHEN?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU SEE THE DETECTIVE WHEN YOU GET BACK?
A NOT RIGHT AWAY, NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU GET THERE DO YOU SEE SOME OR ALL OF THEM?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
TELL US WHEN YOU FIRST OBSERVE A DETECTIVE OR DETECTIVES AFTER YOU RETURN FROM PICKING UP THE CHILDREN AT THE POLICE STATION?
A UMM, I WAS IN THE KITCHEN AND ONE OF THE DETECTIVES HAD COME THROUGH THE KITCHEN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WERE IN THERE WITH THE CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q AND WITH A.C. COWLINGS?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHICH DETECTIVE WAS IT, IF YOU RECALL?
A I DON'T RECALL.
Q ALL RIGHT. IT WAS ONE OF THEM?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU HAVE SOME CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A NO.
Q DID YOU SEE OTHER DETECTIVES WHILE YOU WERE BACK IN THE KITCHEN?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN WAS THAT?
A IN THE PERIOD THAT WE WERE -- I WAS TRYING TO ENTERTAIN THE KIDS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WERE TRYING TO KEEP THE CHILDREN OCCUPIED, WERE YOU?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING?
A UMM, SYDNEY HAD FALLEN ASLEEP ON THE COUCH AND JUSTIN WAS PLAYING NINTENDO SO I WAS PLAYING WITH HIM.
Q THERE HAD BEEN NO MENTION OF THE TRAGEDY THAT HAPPENED, OBVIOUSLY?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT AS YOU TRIED TO ENTERTAIN JUSTIN?
A ONE OF THE DETECTIVES, I DON'T RECALL WHICH ONE IT WAS, TOLD US THAT WE HAD TO LEAVE THE HOUSE.
Q YOU HAD TO LEAVE YOUR OWN HOUSE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU DON'T RECALL WHICH ONE IT WAS?
A NO.
Q WHERE WERE YOU WHEN HE TOLD YOU YOU HAD TO LEAVE?
A IN THE KITCHEN.
Q AND WHEN YOU WERE TOLD THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO AT THAT TIME, IF ANYTHING?
A AT THAT POINT, UMM, I WENT TO SPEAK WITH A.C.
Q ALL RIGHT.
A MR. COWLINGS.
Q MR. COWLINGS WAS SOMEWHERE IN THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A YES.
Q WHERE DID YOU HAVE THAT CONVERSATION?
A IN THE KITCHEN.
Q AFTER THAT WAS SOME DECISION MADE WITH REGARD TO THE CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q HAD YOU AT SOME POINT THAT MORNING RECEIVED A CALL FROM MISS JUDITHA BROWN?
A YES.
Q SHE CALLED YOU BACK?
A YES.
Q WHEN WAS THAT?
A UMM, AFTER WE HAD PICKED UP THE KIDS AND DURING THE PERIOD THAT WE WERE JUST IN THE KITCHEN.
Q SO YOU WERE BACK AT THE LOCATION?
A YES.
Q SHE CALLED?
A YES.
Q YOU TALKED TO HER ON THE PHONE?
A YES.
Q DID THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THE CHILDREN COME UP DURING THAT CONVERSATION?
A YES.
Q AND THERE WAS A CONVERSATION WITH YOU AND JUDITHA BROWN?
A YES.
Q AT SOME POINT THAT MORNING WAS A DECISION MADE TO TRANSPORT THE CHILDREN OUT TO JUDITHA BROWN'S HOME IN ORANGE COUNTY?
A YES.
Q AND WHO WAS TO DO THAT?
A UMM, MR. COWLINGS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID HE DO THAT AT SOME POINT?
A YES.
Q WAS THIS AFTER THE POLICE HAD SAID YOU HAD TO LEAVE THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q SO HE THEN LEFT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU GOT BACK HOME FROM THE POLICE STATION AND PICKING UP THE CHILDREN, DID YOU SEE KATO KAELIN AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q WHERE WAS HE?
A HE WAS IN THE BAR AREA.
Q IN THE BAR AREA IS GENERALLY WHERE? AND YOU MIGHT USE THE DIAGRAM AGAIN AND USE YOUR POINTER IN MAKING THE RELATION TO THE T.V. ROOM THAT WE JUST PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED AND THE KITCHEN.
A (INDICATING).
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, SHE IS AGAIN INDICATING AN AREA IN THE SOUTHERN MOST PORTION OF THE RESIDENCE, THE BAR AREA, NOT FAR WHERE THAT DOOR IS THAT YOU GO OUT.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q WHAT WAS MR. KAELIN DOING AS HE WAS SEATED IN THAT BAR AREA, IF YOU RECALL?
A SPEAKING WITH A DETECTIVE.
Q WHICH DETECTIVE WAS HE SPEAKING WITH, IF YOU RECALL?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS VANNATTER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU HEAR WHAT THEY WERE SAYING?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO MR. COWLINGS LEAVES WITH THE CHILDREN. YOU ARE THERE NOW AND KATO IS THERE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND THE FOUR DETECTIVES ARE STILL SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY. WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT?
A UMM, A.C. TOOK THE KIDS AND TOOK THEM TO LAGUNA AND I WENT INTO MY ROOM.
Q YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR ROOM?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
ONCE YOU GOT TO YOUR ROOM, WHAT DID YOU DO THEN, IF ANYTHING?
A I WAS GATHERING MY THINGS AND THE PHONE RANG.
Q YOU GOT ANOTHER PHONE CALL?
A YES.
Q WAS YOUR BROTHER JASON THERE BY THIS TIME?
A NO.
Q WAS IT YOUR BROTHER ON THE PHONE?
A NO.
Q WHO CALLED YOU THEN?
A MY FATHER.
Q YOU TALKED TO YOUR FATHER AGAIN?
A YES.
Q THIS IS NOW -- THIS WOULD BE THE THIRD CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD THAT MORNING; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AGAIN YOU CAN'T TELL US ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION, BUT IN TALKING TO YOUR FATHER AND HEARING HIS VOICE WOULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE COURT AND JURY AGAIN HIS DEMEANOR, HOW HE SEEMED AND HOW HE APPEARED TO YOU AT THAT POINT.
A UPSET, OUT OF CONTROL, DISTRAUGHT, EMOTIONAL.
Q HAD YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE EVER HEARD HIM LIKE THAT BEFORE?
A NO.
Q AGAIN, WITHOUT TELLING US ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION, DID THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THAT CONVERSATION CONCERN WHEN HE WAS COMING BACK TO CALIFORNIA?
A YES.
Q IS THAT WHEN YOU FOUND OUT WHEN HE WAS COMING BACK?
A YES.
Q DID YOU ASCERTAIN HE WOULD BE COMING BACK VERY -- AS SOON AS POSSIBLE?
A YES.
Q ON THAT DATE, JUNE 13TH?
A YES.
Q IT WAS IN THAT CONVERSATION THAT YOU FOUND THAT OUT?
A YES.
Q HOW LONG DID THAT CONVERSATION LAST?
A FIVE TO TEN MINUTES.
Q WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL HIM DURING THAT CONVERSATION ANYTHING WITH REGARD TO THE KIDS, THE CHILDREN, BECAUSE YOU NOW HAVE THE CHILDREN, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q DID THAT SUBJECT MATTER COME UP?
A YES.
Q AND WOULD I BE CORRECT IN ASSUMING IN THAT CONVERSATION HE WAS STILL IN CHICAGO, WAS HE?
A YES.
Q YOUR DAD?
WAS THERE ANY ONE ELSE PRESENT DURING THAT CONVERSATION, OTHER THAN YOU?
A NO.
Q AFTER THAT CONVERSATION DID YOU THEN GET READY TO LEAVE THE PREMISES?
A YES.
Q HAD YOU MADE SOME ARRANGEMENTS FOR SOME PLACE TO GO?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHAT TIME WAS IT BY NOW, IF YOU RECALL?
A UMM --
Q YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION?
A A QUARTER TO 8:00, EIGHT O'CLOCK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT, AFTER YOU -- DID YOU THEN LEAVE THE PREMISES IN YOUR OWN CAR?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
DID SOMEBODY COME AND PICK YOU UP OR TAKE YOU?
A YES.
Q SOMEBODY ELSE CAME THEN?
A YES.
Q WHO WAS THAT?
A MY BROTHER JASON.
Q THAT IS THE GENTLEMAN WE DESCRIBED EARLIER? THAT IS YOUR SIBLING; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q YOU ARE THE OLDEST OF THE CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q AND HE IS NEXT IN LINE TO YOU, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q HE CAME -- DID HE COME IN THE HOUSE ALSO?
A NO.
Q YOU WENT OUTSIDE TO WHERE HE WAS?
A NO.
Q HE DID NOT COME INSIDE?
A NO.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO YOUR CAR, DID YOU -- DID YOU TRY TO TAKE YOUR CAR?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO TAKE YOUR CAR?
A THEY TOLD ME THAT I WASN'T ALLOWED TO TAKE MY CAR.
Q SO ALTHOUGH YOU HAD TO LEAVE, YOU COULDN'T TAKE YOUR CAR; IS THAT RIGHT?
A RIGHT.
Q SO HOW DID YOU FINALLY LEAVE THE PREMISES?
A WITH MY BROTHER JASON.
Q SO WHEN JASON CAME HE WAS GOING TO TAKE YOU SOMEPLACE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q WHERE DID YOU GO?
A I WENT OVER TO A FRIEND'S HOUSE.
Q AND HOW LONG DID YOU STAY AT THIS FRIEND'S HOUSE, IF YOU RECALL?
A UMM, THE MAJORITY OF THE DAY.
Q NOW, DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOU HAD OCCASION TO ALSO SPEAK WITH YOUR MOTHER, MISS MARGUERITE THOMAS, ON THAT DATE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU TALK TO HER AT ALL WHILE YOU WERE STILL AT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE WERE YOU WHEN YOU TALKED TO HER AND MADE THAT CALL?
A IN MY ROOM.
Q WAS THAT JUST BEFORE YOU LEFT OR AT SOME EARLIER TIME?
A SOME EARLIER TIME.
Q IT WAS THE TIME BEFORE YOU WENT TO GET THE CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q YOU TOLD HER WHAT HAD HAPPENED?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO TALK TO HER LATER ON WHEN YOU WENT TO YOUR FRIEND'S HOUSE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU STAY AT YOUR FRIEND'S HOUSE ALL DAY?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, LEADING.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MS. CLARK: THESE ARE ALL LEADING QUESTIONS.
THE COURT: WELL, THEN YOU NEED TO OBJECT IN A TIMELY MANNER.
PROCEED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: TELL US WHAT YOU DID AFTER YOU WERE AT YOUR FRIEND'S HOUSE.
A UMM, I WAS AT MY FRIEND'S HOUSE THE MAJORITY OF THE DAY. I HAD CALLED CATHY AT SOME POINT. I FELL ASLEEP, WOKE UP. I WAS WATCHING T.V., JUST TALKING, CRYING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HOW LONG DID YOU STAY AT YOUR FRIEND'S HOUSE, IF YOU RECALL?
A UNTIL ABOUT 5:30, 6:00.
Q DID THE POLICE -- WHEN THE POLICE TOLD YOU YOU HAD TO LEAVE YOUR HOUSE, DID THEY TELL YOU WHEN YOU COULD COME BACK HOME?
A NO.
Q SO LATER IN THE EVENING, AFTER 5:30, DID YOU FIND OUT WHETHER OR NOT YOU COULD COME BACK HOME?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WAS IT AFTER THEN THAT YOU LEFT YOUR FRIEND'S HOUSE AND DID YOU THEN COME BACK TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q AND TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION, MISS SIMPSON, WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?
A AROUND SIX O'CLOCK, BETWEEN 5:30 AND SIX O'CLOCK.
Q 5:30 AND SIX O'CLOCK ON MONDAY, JUNE 13TH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q SO WE HAVE THE TIME CONTEXT, YOU HAD LEFT ABOUT WHAT TIME IN THE MORNING TO LEAVE TO GO TO YOUR FRIEND'S HOUSE?
A BETWEEN 8:00 AND 8:30.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BEFORE YOU CAME BACK TO THE HOUSE AT 5:30, SIX O'CLOCK IN THE EVENING, HAD YOU BECOME AWARE THAT YOUR DAD WAS BACK IN TOWN?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, LEADING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU BECOME AWARE THAT YOUR DAD WAS BACK IN TOWN?
MS. CLARK: SAME OBJECTION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: HOW DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF THAT?
A THROUGH T.V.
Q YOU SAW IT ON T.V.?
A YES.
Q WHAT DID YOU SEE ON T.V.?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY, IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I SAW MY FATHER WALKING INTO THE HOUSE.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AND SO WHEN YOU SAW IT, YOU KNEW IT WAS BACK; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION THAT DAY OR THAT AFTERNOON TO HAVE STILL ANOTHER CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD BEFORE YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
Q WHERE WAS HE AT THAT TIME, IF YOU KNOW, AT THE TIME OF THIS CONVERSATION?
A HE WAS AT HIS OFFICE.
Q AND THAT IS -- WHEREABOUTS IS THAT OFFICE?
A IN BRENTWOOD OFF OF SAN VICENTE.
Q AND DURING THAT CONVERSATION -- AGAIN
YOU CAN'T TELL US ABOUT THE CONTENT OF THAT CONVERSATION -- BUT WITH REGARD TO HIS DEMEANOR, CAN YOU DESCRIBE HOW HE APPEARED TO YOU AS YOU TALKED TO HIM ON THE PHONE DURING THIS CONVERSATION IN THE AFTERNOON HOURS I GUESS OF JUNE 13TH, 1994?
A UMM, HE WAS VERY QUIET. UMM, JUST STILL UPSET, BUT JUST -- THERE WEREN'T A LOT OF WORDS SAID ON HIS PART, BUT ON MY PART. HE WAS JUST VERY EMOTIONAL.
Q HAD YOU EVER SEEN HIM SO EMOTIONAL BEFORE IN THAT CONVERSATION?
A NO, NEVER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AFTER THAT -- AFTER THAT CONVERSATION -- ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS THAT CONVERSATION?
A BETWEEN 4:00 AND 5:00.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AFTER THAT CONVERSATION, WITHIN AN HOUR OR SO, YOU CAME BACK HOME; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q WERE YOU AWARE THAT HE WOULD BE COMING HOME AT OR AROUND THAT TIME?
A YES.
Q AND WAS THAT BASED UPON SOME DISCUSSIONS YOU HAD HAD WITH HIM?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, LEADING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
Q DID YOU KNOW WHAT TIME YOUR DAD WAS GOING TO BE COMING BACK HOME?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU TRY TO TIME YOUR ARRIVAL SO YOU COULD GET BACK ABOUT THE SAME TIME?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, LEADING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
Q HOW DID YOU TIME YOUR ARRIVAL IN GETTING BACK HOME?
A UMM, TO WHAT WAS SAID THROUGH OUR CONVERSATION.
Q ALL RIGHT. OKAY.
I WANT YOU TO DESCRIBE FOR THE COURT AND JURY AGAIN WHAT YOU SAW WHEN YOU ARRIVED BACK AT ROCKINGHAM.
A UMM, THERE WERE A LOT OF POLICE CARS, MEDIA, A LOT OF COMMOTION, JUST A LOT OF PEOPLE IN FRONT AND INSIDE THE HOUSE IN THE GROUNDS OF THE HOUSE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WHEN YOU LEFT IN THE MORNING HOURS SOMETIME MAYBE AT AROUND 8:00 OR SHORTLY AFTER EIGHT O'CLOCK, DID YOU SEE MANY POLICE CARS AROUND AT THAT POINT, IF YOU RECALL?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU GIVE AN ESTIMATE? CAN YOU THINK BACK AND GIVE US AN ESTIMATE HOW MANY POLICE CARS YOU SAW EVEN AS EARLY AS EIGHT O'CLOCK?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: ONE OR TWO.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU CHARACTERIZE THAT WITH THE NUMBER YOU SEE WHEN YOU CAME BACK AT 5:30 IN THE EVENING?
A THERE HAD TO BE MORE LIKE FOUR OR FIVE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WERE YOU ALLOWED TO COME ON THE PREMISES AT THAT TIME?
A NO.
Q WHEN YOU GOT THERE, TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.
A WHEN I GOT THERE, UMM, I ATTEMPTED TO GO THROUGH THE GATE AND THE POLICE OFFICER TOLD ME THAT I WASN'T ALLOWED TO GO IN AND THAT HE WOULD FIND OUT WHEN I COULD GO IN.
Q IS THIS A UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICER?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THEN WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
A UMM, HE LEFT AND THEN CAME BACK AND HE TOLD ME I COULD GO -- GO IN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THEN YOU CAME INSIDE THE RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE DID YOU GO AT THAT POINT?
A UMM, I WENT INTO THE HOUSE, I WENT INTO THE KITCHEN AND THEN INTO THE T.V. ROOM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN YOU GOT INSIDE THE T.V. ROOM DID YOU SEE SOME PEOPLE THEREIN?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, SO WE ARE CLEAR, WHAT TIME WAS THIS, APPROXIMATELY?
A 6:00, 6:30.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN YOU GOT IN THERE IN THE T.V. ROOM WHICH YOU HAD PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED, WOULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE JURY AGAIN WHOM YOU SAW THERE.
A I SAW MY FATHER, I SAW MY GRANDMOTHER, MY AUNT SHIRLEY AND SOME OF MY DAD'S FRIENDS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOUR AUNT SHIRLEY, THAT IS YOUR BROTHER'S SISTER; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q SHE STEPPED OUT OF THE COURTROOM NOW?
A YES.
Q AND YOUR GRANDMOTHER IS WHOM, MISS EUNICE SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q YOU SAW SOME FRIENDS IN AND AROUND THERE?
A YES.
Q NOW, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW YOUR DAD; IS THAT RIGHT, THAT DAY?
A YES.
Q WILL YOU DESCRIBE FOR THE JURY HOW YOUR DAD APPEARED TO YOU WHEN YOU SAW HIM, YOUR DAD?
A HE WAS VERY EMOTIONLESS, HE WAS NUMB, HE WAS QUIET, JUST SITTING ON THE COUCH. HE WAS HOLDING MY GRANDMOTHER'S HAND.
I WALKED OVER TO HIM AND I HUGGED HIM AND I ASKED HIM IF HE WAS OKAY AND HE JUST KIND OF LOCKED AT ME AND I WAS JUST TRYING TO COMFORT HIM BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO.
Q A TOUGH TIME FOR HIM?
A YEAH.
Q SITTING ON THE COUCH CLOSE TO HIS MOTHER?
A YEAH.
Q THEY WERE HOLDING HANDS?
A YES.
Q WAS HE TALKING TO HIS MOTHER AT ALL?
A YES.
Q WHERE WERE THESE FRIENDS OF HIS AT THAT POINT, IF YOU RECALL?
A SITTING AROUND IN THE T.V. ROOM AND OVER AT THE BAR AREA.
Q AND WHERE WAS MISS SHIRLEY BAKER, HIS SISTER?
A SHE WAS IN THE T.V. ROOM, TOO.
Q WERE THE T.V.'S ON AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q NOW, AFTER YOU GOT THERE, WERE THERE OTHER FRIENDS WHO CAME BY?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q AFTER YOUR ARRIVAL, DID SOMEBODY ARRIVE AFTER -- FRIENDS ARRIVE AFTER YOU GOT THERE?
A YES.
Q DO YOU REMEMBER ANY OF THE NAMES OF ANY WHO CAME BY THAT EVENING?
A JOE STELLINI, RON SHIPP, RON FISCHMAN, MY AUNT CARMELITA.
Q THAT IS CARMELITA DURIO?
A YES.
Q AND SHE ARRIVED AT SOME POINT?
A YES.
Q ANYBODY ELSE?
A I BELIEVE THAT IS IT.
Q DO YOU REMEMBER AT SOME POINT THAT EVENING THAT CARMELITA'S HUSBAND CAME?
A YES.
Q WHAT IS HIS NAME?
A CHARLES.
Q WHAT ABOUT YOUR AUNT SHIRLEY'S HUSBAND, WAS HE THERE AT ANY TIME?
A YES.
Q WHAT IS HIS NAME?
A BENNIE.
Q AT SOME POINT THAT EVENING DID YOU SEE THEM?
A YES.
Q SO MANY OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS CAME; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING RON SHIPP THERE?
A YES.
Q I WANT YOU TO DESCRIBE FOR THE COURT AND JURY -- DID YOU KNOW RON SHIPP BEFORE THIS TIME?
A YES.
Q HOW DID YOU KNOW HIM?
A THROUGH MY FATHER. HE WOULD COME BY THE HOUSE PERIODICALLY.
Q WHEN HE CAME BY THE HOUSE, WHAT WOULD YOU SEE HIM DOING, IF ANYTHING?
A PLAYING TENNIS OR IN THE JACUZZI.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU SAW HIM THIS PARTICULAR EVENING?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU SAW HIM, WHAT WAS HE DOING, IF ANYTHING?
A HE WAS SITTING AT THE BAR.
Q WAS HE DOING ANYTHING AT THE BAR? JUST SITTING THERE?
A YES.
Q WHAT WAS THAT?
A HE WAS HAVING A DRINK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU SEE HIM HAVE ONE DRINK OR MORE THAN ONE DRINK OR WHAT?
A I SAW HIM HAVE AT LEAST ONE DRINK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHAT WAS HE DRINKING, IF YOU RECALL?
A A BEER.
Q DID YOU TALK TO HIM AT ALL?
A UMM, YES.
Q YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A A SHORT CONVERSATION WITH HIM.
Q WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU, IF ANYTHING?
A HE JUST CAME OVER TO COMFORT ME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU SAY MUCH TO HIM OR ANYTHING TO HIM?
A UMM, JUST, YOU KNOW, THANK YOU AND WE ARE GOING TO GET THROUGH THIS. "HOW ARE YOU DOING?"
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DID HE REMAIN AT ALL TIMES IN THIS SAME AREA THAT YOU SAW HIM IN WHEN YOU FIRST SAW HIM THAT EVENING?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE WAS THAT?
A AT THE BAR AREA.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THAT IS A LITTLE BIT OFF THE AREA WHERE THE FAMILY ROOM IS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, DID YOU CONTINUE TO STAY IN THE FAMILY ROOM WITH THE REST OF THE FAMILY?
A UMM, OFF AND ON, YES.
Q WITH REGARD TO SHIPP, DID YOU EVER SEE HIM LEAVE OR MOVE FROM THAT AREA WHILE YOU WERE STILL THERE, THE AREA OF THE BAR?
A NO.
Q HE REMAINED THERE?
A YES.
Q AND HOW LONG, FROM THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW HIM, TO THE TIME YOU LAST SAW HIM THAT EVENING, DID HE REMAIN IN THE BAR AREA?
A MAYBE A LITTLE MORE -- AN HOUR, MAYBE A LITTLE OVER AN HOUR.
Q DO YOU KNOW IF HE HAD BEEN DRINKING WHEN HE ARRIVED THERE THAT DAY?
A NO.
Q DID YOU -- WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHETHER OR NOT HE APPEARED INTOXICATED OR NOT INTOXICATED OR HOW DID HE APPEAR?
A UMM, I COULDN'T SAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU SAW HIM WITH THE ONE BEER; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q NOW, WAS HE A CLOSE FRIEND OF YOUR FATHER, IF YOU KNOW?
A YEAH.
Q AND WAS HE SOMEBODY YOU HAD SEEN OVER THERE?
A SOMETIMES, YES.
Q NOW, HAD YOU SEEN HIM OVER AT THE HOUSE WITHIN THE WEEK OR SO PREVIOUS TO THIS, MR. SHIPP?
A YES.
Q HE HAD NEVER BEEN OUT TO DINNER WITH YOUR DAD, THOUGH, HAD HE?
A NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NO.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
MR. COCHRAN: IF YOU KNOW.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WITH REGARD TO THIS TIME THAT YOU HAD SEEN HIM OVER AT THE HOUSE BEFORE THAT, DESCRIBE WHAT YOU SAW HIM DOING, IF ANYTHING.
THIS IS THE WEEK BEFORE --
A YES.
Q -- THIS INCIDENT?
WHAT DID YOU OBSERVE, IF ANYTHING?
A HE WAS PLAYING TENNIS AND THEN LATER ON IN THAT EVENING HE WAS IN THE JACUZZI.
Q WAS HE WITH ANYBODY ELSE IN THE JACUZZI? WAS ANYBODY ELSE IN THE JACUZZI WITH HIM?
A YES.
Q WHO WAS THAT?
A A LADY.
Q DESCRIBE HER FOR US.
A SHE WAS TALL, BLOND, LIKE DIRTY BLOND.
Q AND NOW, DESCRIBE FOR US WAS THIS IN THE EVENING?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT WAS HE -- WAS HE SITTING IN THE JACUZZI?
A YEAH.
Q WAS HE DRINKING AT ALL AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q WHAT WAS HE DRINKING, IF YOU KNOW?
A A BEER.
Q DID YOU TALK TO HIM AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO HIM AND THIS PARTICULAR LADY?
A I WAS STANDING RIGHT OVER THE JACUZZI.
Q YOU HAD A CONVERSATION?
A YES.
Q WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER OR NOT HE APPEARED TO BE INTOXICATED AT THAT POINT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION?
THE WITNESS: NO.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THIS CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH HIM, HOW LONG DID IT LAST?
A FIVE MINUTES.
Q DID YOU TALK TO THE LADY?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOUR FATHER WAS HOME AT THAT TIME WHEN HE WAS USING THE JACUZZI WITH THIS LADY?
A YES.
Q WAS YOUR FATHER AT HOME?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER SEE YOUR FATHER OUT THERE IN THE JACUZZI AREA WHERE HE WAS?
A NO.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A MOMENT,
YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND
THE DEFENDANT.)
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q NOW, GOING BACK TO THE FAMILY ROOM WHERE EVERYBODY WAS GATHERED AFTER YOU CAME BACK IN THE HOUSE, HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THE FAMILY ROOM BEFORE YOU HAD OCCASION TO GO SOME OTHER PLACE, IF YOU RECALL?
A MAYBE TWENTY MINUTES.
Q AND ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS IT -- WOULD IT BE BY THAT TIME? WHAT TIME WOULD IT BE?
A UMM, BETWEEN 7:30 AND 8:00.
Q AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO?
A TO MY ROOM, TO THE KITCHEN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU WOULD GO IN OTHER PART OF THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q AND WOULD YOU COME BACK IN?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SO OFF AND ON YOU WOULD LEAVE THE ROOM AND WOULD YOU COME BACK IN; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT TIME DID YOU LAST SEE YOUR DAD THAT EVENING, IF YOU KNOW APPROXIMATELY WHAT TYPE WAS IT?
A UMM, AFTER EIGHT O'CLOCK.
Q AND WHEN YOU SAW HIM THE LAST TIME, DID HE LEAVE THE ROOM OR DID YOU LEAVE THE ROOM?
A HE LEFT THE ROOM.
Q YOU WERE STILL THERE WHEN HE LEFT THE ROOM?
A YES.
Q AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US BEFORE THAT HE HAD BEEN SEATED ON THE COUCH HOLDING HIS MOTHER'S HAND, RIGHT --
A YES.
Q -- WHEN YOU CAME BACK?
AT A TIME BEFORE HE LEFT THE ROOM, WHERE WAS HE SEATED AND WHO WAS HE SEATED WITH AT THAT TIME?
A HE WAS SEATED WITH MY GRANDMOTHER, MY AUNT SHIRLEY, BOB KARDASHIAN WAS THERE AND SOME OF HIS FRIENDS WERE COMING AND GOING AT THAT TIME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO STILL BASICALLY IN THE FAMILY ROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO HIS DEMEANOR AND HOW HE APPEARED, DESCRIBE AGAIN FOR THE JURY HOW HE APPEARED BEFORE HE LEFT THE ROOM TO GO SOME OTHER PLACE? HOW DID HE APPEAR TO YOU THEN?
A HE WAS JUST VERY UPSET. HE WAS CRYING OFF AND ON. WE WERE WATCHING THE NEWS AND HE KEPT TALKING TO THE T.V. SAYING, YOU KNOW, "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS."
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, OBJECTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
THE WITNESS: SORRY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT HE SAID TO THE T.V., BUT WOULD HE MAKE STATEMENTS?
A YES.
Q YOU COULD HEAR THOSE STATEMENTS?
A YES.
Q DESCRIBE HIS DEMEANOR AS HE MADE THOSE STATEMENTS.
A IN SHOCK, UPSET, IN DISBELIEF, JUST -- JUST EMOTIONAL, JUST --
Q AGAIN, HAD YOU EVER SEEN HIM THIS WAY BEFORE IN YOUR LIFE?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU SAW HIM IN THIS -- IN THIS CONDITION, AND TELL US WHAT -- WHAT OCCURRED WHEN YOU PREPARED TO LEAVE AT THAT POINT.
A HE WAS TIRED AND, UMM, IT WAS SUGGESTED THAT HE GO UPSTAIRS AND LIE DOWN.
Q AND WHEN HE LEFT THE ROOM, DID HE LEAVE WITH ANYONE AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q AND WHO DID HE LEAVE WITH AT THAT POINT?
A BOB KARDASHIAN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU SAW HE AND BOB LEAVE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE EITHER ONE OF YOUR AUNTS GO WITH HIM?
A YES.
Q WHICH AUNT WENT WITH HIM?
A MY AUNT SHIRLEY.
Q AS THEY LEFT THE ROOM, IN WHICH DIRECTION DID THEY GO?
A TOWARD THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU GO WITH HIM AT THAT POINT?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU SAW KARDASHIAN AND YOUR AUNT SHIRLEY LEAVE AND THEY LEFT OUT OF YOUR SIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A UH-HUH.
THE COURT: IS THAT YES?
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ARE THE BEDROOMS OF THAT HOUSE LOCATED UPSTAIRS, UP SOME STAIRS?
A YES.
Q IS THE CARPET VERY, VERY LIGHT, ALMOST WHITE?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, LEADING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: AT THAT DATE BACK ON JUNE 13TH, 1994, WHAT COLOR WAS THE CARPETING ON THE STAIRS AND GOING UP THE STAIRS INTO YOUR FATHER'S BEDROOM?
A WHITE.
Q AND THE CARPET IN HIS BEDROOM WAS WHAT COLOR?
A LIKE AN OFF-WHITE.
Q YOU CAME IN THAT DOORWAY THAT MORNING, LET THOSE POLICE OFFICERS IN AFTER TURNING THE ALARM OFF.
DID YOU EVER SEE ANY BLOOD SPOTS IN THE FOYER AREA OF THAT RESIDENCE?
A NO.
Q YOU WERE OUT AND AROUND THE DRIVEWAY AREA THAT DAY, WERE YOU?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER SEE ANY BLOOD SPOTS IN THE DRIVEWAY AREA?
A NO.
Q SO DID YOU REMAIN IN THE FAMILY ROOM AFTER YOUR FATHER HAD LEFT?
A NO.
Q WHERE DID YOU GO?
A UMM, I WAS IN AND OUT THE HOUSE, MY ROOM, THE KITCHEN, UPSTAIRS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WERE THERE WHEN YOUR FATHER LEFT AND THEN YOU HAD OCCASION TO LEAVE THAT AREA YOURSELF; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU -- AFTER YOUR FATHER LEFT WITH YOUR AUNT AND WITH BOB KARDASHIAN, WAS RON SHIPP STILL IN THAT BAR AREA?
A YES.
Q WAS HE STILL -- HAD A BEER BEFORE HIM AT THAT POINT?
A I BELIEVE SO.
Q YOU WERE STILL THERE?
A PARDON ME?
Q WERE YOU STILL DOWNSTAIRS THERE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER SEE HIM LEAVE?
A NO.
Q HE WAS STILL THERE WHEN YOU LEFT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, ULTIMATELY THAT NIGHT DID YOU GO BACK TO YOUR ROOM?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT TIME THAT WAS?
A AROUND BETWEEN 10:00 AND 11:00.
Q AND BEFORE GOING TO YOUR ROOM DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO EVER GO UPSTAIRS TO YOUR DAD'S ROOM AT ALL?
A YES.
Q WHEN WAS THAT THAT YOU WENT UPSTAIRS TO YOUR DAD'S ROOM?
A SHORTLY AFTER HE HAD GONE UPSTAIRS AND THEN BEFORE I WENT TO MY ROOM.
Q YOU WENT UP TO SEE YOUR DAD?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU GOT UPSTAIRS, DESCRIBE FOR THE COURT AND JURY WHAT YOU SAW WHEN YOU GOT UPSTAIRS.
A UMM, HE WAS LYING DOWN AND, UMM, MY AUNT SHIRLEY WAS PUTTING A FACE TOWEL, COLD FACE TOWEL OVER HIS FOREHEAD.
Q AND HE WAS LYING IN HIS BED?
A YES.
Q SO YOU SAW MISS SHIRLEY BAKER IN THE BEDROOM?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE ANYONE ELSE UP THERE AT THAT POINT?
A MY UNCLE BENNIE, RON FISCHMAN.
Q IS HE A DOCTOR?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOUR UNCLE BENNIE IS MARRIED TO YOUR AUNT SHIRLEY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN YOU WERE UP THERE AT THAT POINT DID YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER CONVERSATION WITH YOUR DAD?
A YES.
Q AND AGAIN, YOU CAN'T TELL US ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION, BUT HOW DID YOUR FATHER APPEAR OR SEEM TO YOU THIS TIME WHEN YOU SAW HIM LAYING IN HIS BED WHERE HE HAD THE WASHCLOTH ACROSS HIS FOREHEAD?
A VERY TIRED, UMM, KIND OF LIFELESS. HE WAS JUST -- SO HARD TO EXPLAIN BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH GOING ON AND IT WAS SO EMOTIONAL, AND I WAS JUST TRYING TO COMFORT HIM BECAUSE HE JUST SEEMED LIKE HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU HAD NEVER SEEN HIM THAT WAY BEFORE?
A NO, NEVER.
Q THE TIME THAT YOU SAW SHIPP UNTIL THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM THAT EVENING, DID HE ALWAYS HAVE A DRINK IN HIS HAND?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, LEADING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MS. CLARK: MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU EVER SEE MR. SHIPP THAT EVENING WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE A BEER WITH HIM?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MS. CLARK: LEADING.
THE WITNESS: I CAN'T SAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, HOW LONG DID YOU STAY WITH YOUR DAD WHEN YOU WERE UPSTAIRS IN THE BEDROOM?
A TEN TO FIFTEEN MINUTES.
Q DID HIS DEMEANOR, THE WAY HE APPEARED TO YOU, REMAIN PRETTY MUCH THE SAME DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME?
A YES.
Q THEN DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO LEAVE?
A YES.
Q AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO AT THAT POINT?
A BACK DOWNSTAIRS.
Q AT SOME POINT YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR ROOM?
A NO.
Q AND YOU DID NOT SEE HIM ANY MORE THAT NIGHT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, LEADING.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU SEE HIM ANY MORE THAT NIGHT?
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NO.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q NOW, YOUR DAD HAS A -- YOU HAVE HAD OCCASION TO GO INTO YOUR DAD'S CLOSET, HAVE YOU NOT?
A YES.
Q ON OCCASIONS? MANY OCCASIONS?
A YES.
Q AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US HOW YOU MOVED BACK IN MARCH OF '93 OR THEREABOUTS.
AND YOU HAVE SEEN HOW YOUR FATHER DRESSES ON OCCASION, HAVE YOU NOT?
A YES.
Q HAVE YOU EVER SEEN YOUR FATHER WEAR A DARK BLUE COTTON LIKE SWEATSUIT AT ANY POINT?
A NO.
Q AT ANY TIME DURING THAT TIME FRAME THAT YOU MOVED BACK, FROM MARCH, '93 THROUGH JUNE OF '94, DID YOU EVER SEE HIM SO DRESSED IN A BLUE, DARK BLUE OR BLACK COTTON LIKE SWEATSUIT AT ALL?
A NO.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO -- I WOULD LIKE TO BACK UP FOR A MOMENT TO MAKE SURE THAT I'M NOT CONFUSED.
WITH REGARD TO THE TIME WHEN MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON LIVED ON GRETNA GREEN, YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A YES.
Q YOU HAVE BEEN TO THAT LOCATION, HAVE YOU?
A YES.
Q WHEN -- WHAT DATES DO YOU RECALL THAT SHE LIVED AT THE GRETNA GREEN LOCATION?
A SHE LIVED THERE FROM THE TIME THAT I MOVED BACK HOME, WHICH WAS IN '92, UNTIL THE END -- THE BEGINNING OF '94.
Q THE BEGINNING OF '94?
A YES.
Q SHE MOVED FROM GRETNA GREEN TO WHERE?
A TO BUNDY.
Q DID THE CHILDREN HAVE A POOL WHEN THEY WERE AT GRETNA GREEN?
A YES.
Q WAS THERE A POOL THERE?
A YES, YES.
Q YOU WENT TO BOTH LOCATIONS? YOU HAD BEEN TO GRETNA GREEN AND BUNDY?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO SHE MOVED TO BUNDY THEN YOU SAID THE END OF THE YEAR, THE FIRST OF '94; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q WHEN WAS IT, IF YOU RECALL, THAT SHE STARTED TO COME OVER AND YOU DESCRIBED LIKE SUNNING HERSELF OR BRINGING THE KIDS OVER TO USE THE POOL?
WHEN IN 1994 WAS THAT, IF YOU RECALL.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY.
YOU REMEMBER YOU TESTIFIED ABOUT THE FACT THAT AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU MOVED BACK IN THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WOULD COME OVER TO THE RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL OVER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME DID THAT OCCUR, THAT SHE WOULD COME OVER AND YOU WOULD JUST LOOK UP AND SEE HER AND THE CHILDREN THERE?
A END OF MARCH, BEGINNING OF APRIL.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHAT YEAR WAS THAT?
A '94.
Q YOU WOULD SEE HER THERE DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WAS THAT AT OR ABOUT THE TIME -- ARE WE TALKING ABOUT '94 OR '93? THAT IS WHAT I'M NOT CLEAR ABOUT.
A '94.
Q YOU WOULD SEE HER IN '94. SHE LIVED AT BUNDY AT THAT POINT?
A YES.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD WHEN SHE AND YOUR DAD STARTED TO GO OUT TOGETHER AGAIN, THAT HAD BEEN THE PREVIOUS APRIL AND MAY OF '93; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THEY CONTINUED THEN TO GO OUT OFF AND ON FROM APRIL AND MAY OF '93 UP UNTIL MAY OF '94?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: LEADING.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M ASKING.
THE WITNESS: YES.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
WE'VE ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THIS, COUNSEL.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M JUST TRYING TO MAKE SURE IT IS CLEAR.
THE WITNESS: YOU HAVE TO EXCUSE ME I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED WITH THE YEARS.
IT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE '93 INTO '94.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: BUT WE HAVE ALREADY GONE OVER THIS.
MR. COCHRAN: I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE IT IS CLEAR.
THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE QUESTIONS I ASKED YOU REGARDING THIS -- THIS SWEATSUIT, SPECIFICALLY IN THE LAST TWO YEARS HAVE YOU SEEN YOUR DAD IN ANY SUCH SWEATSUIT, DARK BLUE OR BLACK, THAT YOU RECALL?
A NO.
Q DOES YOUR DAD PLAY TENNIS ANY MORE?
A NO.
Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHY HE DOESN'T PLAY TENNIS?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
MR. COCHRAN: ANSWER THAT YES OR NO, YOUR HONOR.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: IF YOU KNOW, YES OR NO.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DO YOU KNOW?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER HE PLAYS TENNIS?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE PLAYS TENNIS?
A YES.
Q AND DOES HE?
A NO.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHY?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY, SPECULATION, NO FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: FOUNDATION.
MR. COCHRAN: FOUNDATION.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q WAS THERE A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN YOUR DAD PLAYED TENNIS?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU HAVE A TENNIS COURT ON THE PROPERTY THERE?
A YES.
Q AS INDICATED BY -- ON PEOPLE'S 66 FOR IDENTIFICATION, YOU HAVE A TENNIS COURT, DON'T YOU?
A YES.
Q THERE WERE TIMES HE PLAYED TENNIS?
A YES.
Q DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN HE NO LONGER PLAYED TENNIS?
A YES.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WAS, APPROXIMATELY, WHEN HE STOPPED PLAYING TENNIS?
A UMM, DURING THE TIME WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL, SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN I GUESS '84 -- '85 AND '87.
Q BEFORE YOU WENT OFF TO COLLEGE?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE STOPPED PLAYING TENNIS?
A YES.
Q WHY WAS THAT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. SAME OBJECTION, NO FOUNDATION, SPECULATION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: DUE TO HIS KNEES AND WRISTS, HIS ARTHRITIS.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: HIS KNEES AND WRISTS?
A YES.
Q HE HAS ARTHRITIS?
A YES.
Q NOW, HAVE YOU CONTINUED TO MAINTAIN CONTACT WITH YOUR YOUNGER BROTHER AND SISTER?
A YES.
Q AND HOW ARE THEY DOING?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WE EARLIER TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOUR DAD HAD THREE CARS THAT HE DROVE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO ONE OF THE CARS -- I THINK WE DESCRIBED AS A BRONCO; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU DESCRIBED TO US EARLIER THAT THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY DROVE THAT BRONCO; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q WOULD MR. A.C. COWLINGS EVER DRIVE THE BRONCO?
A YES.
Q ANYBODY ELSE OTHER THAN FAMILY MEMBERS EVER DRIVE THE BRONCO?
A NO.
Q IT WOULD BE FAMILY MEMBERS OR MR. COWLINGS?
A UH-HUH, YES.
Q YES?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q DO YOU REMEMBER -- WHAT ABOUT THE HOUSEKEEPER?
A NO.
Q WOULD SHE EVER GO TO THE MARKET IN THE BRONCO OR ANY CAR?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO THAT BRONCO, FROM THE TIME THAT YOU LIVED THERE AND SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU MOVED BACK, FROM MARCH, 1993 TO JUNE OF '94, DURING THAT TIME FRAME AND EVEN BEFORE THAT, WHEN THE BRONCO WAS AROUND, DO YOU RECALL WHERE THE BRONCO WOULD NORMALLY BE PARKED?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT FOR THE COURT AND THE JURY?
A UMM, IT WOULD EITHER BE PARKED ON ASHFORD OR ROCKINGHAM.
Q AND WOULD THERE BE ANY PARTICULAR -- YOU KNOW, ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY IT WOULD BE PARKED AT ONE LOCATION OR THE OTHER?
A YES.
Q AND WHY WAS THAT?
A DEPENDING ON WHO WAS DRIVING IT AND WHAT WAS IN THE CAR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO IT WAS PARKED EITHER AT ROCKINGHAM OR AN ASHFORD, EITHER ONE OF THOSE LOCATIONS; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL THE LAST TIME PRIOR TO
JUNE 12TH OF 1994 THAT YOU SAW NICOLE IN THE BRONCO?
DO YOU RECALL SEEING HER DRIVE THAT BRONCO, MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
A UMM, NO.
Q YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE LAST TIME?
A NO.
Q BUT YOU RECALL SHE DROVE IT?
A YES.
Q YOU RECALL THE CHILDREN BEING IN THE BRONCO?
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL SEEING BOTH DOGS IN THE BRONCO?
A YES.
Q WHEN THEY -- WHEN CHUBBS WAS BURIED, WHAT IMPLEMENT WAS USED OR WHAT INSTRUMENT WAS USED TO DIG THE HOLE?
A A SHOVEL.
Q WAS THERE SOME KIND OF A GATE CLICKER THAT YOU NEEDED TO USE WHEN YOU WERE OPENING EITHER ONE OF THE GATES, EITHER ASHFORD OR ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
Q AND WHICH GATE WOULD NEED ONE OF THOSE, I GUESS YOU CALL IT, A GATE OPENER?
A BOTH GATES.
Q HOW MANY GATE OPENERS DID YOU HAVE IN THE THREE CARS THAT YOUR FATHER HAD?
A THREE.
Q AND WHO HAD THE GATE OPENERS?
A I HAD ONE, MY FATHER HAD ONE AND GIGI HAD ONE.
Q SO IF HE DROVE MORE THAN ONE CAR, WOULD HE HAVE TO EITHER TRANSPORT THE GATE OPENER BECAUSE HE ONLY HAD ONE FOR EACH CAR; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q EACH OF THESE THREE CARS DID NOT HAVE A GATE OPENER?
A NO.
Q IS THAT RIGHT?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q WOULD THAT DETERMINE SOMETIMES WHERE YOU WOULD PARK?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU CAME BACK THAT EVENING AFTER 5:30 IN THE EVENING, DID YOU SEE KATO KAELIN AGAIN THAT EVENING?
A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q IF YOU RECALL?
THE COURT: I TAKE IT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE 13TH?
MR. COCHRAN: THE 13TH, YES, YOUR HONOR.
Q THE 13TH WHEN YOU CAME BACK HOME AND YOU WERE ABLE TO GET BACK INTO YOUR HOUSE, DID YOU SEE KATO KAELIN AT ALL THAT EVENING?
A YES. YES.
Q WHERE WAS HE, IF YOU RECALL?
A HE WAS IN THE LIVING ROOM -- THE T.V. ROOM.
Q NOW, YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED FOR US HOW ON OCCASIONS YOUR FATHER WOULD DISCUSS VARIOUS THINGS THAT WERE HAPPENING IN HIS LIFE WITH YOU.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YES.
THE COURT: WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDE BAR,
MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: I PROMISED I WOULD APPROACH THE BENCH BEFORE I TALKED ABOUT THE LETTER OR WHATEVER AND WHAT I WANTED TO DO IS BEFORE I MENTION THAT I WANT TO HAVE A 402 HEARING ON THAT ASPECT.
BUT THERE IS A COUPLE THINGS I WANTED TO BRING UP BEFORE THE LUNCH HOUR AND THERE -- A COUPLE OF THESE STATEMENTS THAT WILL BE MADE BY HIM ABOUT WATCHING T.V. OR WHATEVER, HE SEES SOMETHING ON THE TELEVISION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, I THINK IS STATE OF MIND, SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCES THAT WILL BE EXCEPTIONS TO THE HEARSAY RULE.
AND OBVIOUSLY I DON'T WANT TO ARGUE IN FRONT OF THE JURY, SO I WANT TO MENTION THAT TO YOUR HONOR AGAIN.
THE COURT: UH-HUH.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE WAS GOING TO SAY THAT HER FATHER WAS WATCHING T.V. AND WOULD TALK TO THE T.V.
I THINK SHE WOULD INDICATE THAT A COUPLE TIMES HE SAID "HOW CAN ANYBODY SAY I WOULD DO THAT" OR "HOW WOULD ANYBODY THINK I WOULD BE GUILTY" OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WORDS TO THAT EFFECT WHEN HE IS TALKING TO THE T.V., SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCES AND STATE OF MIND AND EXCEPTION TO THE HEARSAY RULE AS AN EXAMPLE.
AND I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO MARSHAL THOSE PARTICULAR ACTUAL STATEMENTS.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: IT DOESN'T QUALIFY IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM AS A SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCE.
NO. 1, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A STARTLING EVENT. HE HAS ALREADY BEEN QUESTIONED BY THE POLICE AND KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING ON.
SELF-SERVING STATEMENT WITH NO INDICIA OF TRUSTWORTHINESS MADE FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL OF THEM AROUND IN RESPONSE TO THE ACCUSATION ON THE TELEVISION AT THE TIME.
THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THAT THAT QUALIFIES AS A SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCE AND I WOULD REMIND ALSO THE COURT OF ITS OWN RULING PERTAINING TO DENISE BROWN'S RESPONSE THAT HER SISTER WAS MURDERED, THE PEOPLE'S ARGUMENT THAT THAT WAS A STARTLING EVENT, AND SHE HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANYTHING HAVING OCCURRED AT THAT POINT WHEN TOM LANGE MADE THE NOTIFICATION, AND HER IMMEDIATE RESPONSE WAS "HE DID IT, HE DID IT, THAT SON OF A BITCH DID IT."
AND NOW WE HAVE A SITUATION THAT IS FAR LESS CREDIBLE IN TERMS OF ITS TRUSTWORTHINESS WHERE SOMEONE HAS ALREADY BEEN OBVIOUSLY QUESTIONED BY THE POLICE, ASKED TO TAKE A POLYGRAPH, ASKED FOR BLOOD TESTS.
HE GOES BACK TO HIS HOME AT ROCKINGHAM WHEN THERE IS ALL THE FRIENDS AND FAMILY AROUND THAT HE IS GOING TO NEED TO SUPPORT HIS DEFENSE EFFORT AND HE IS MAKING RESPONSES TO THE TELEVISION NEWS BROADCASTS THAT DON'T QUALIFY AS A STARTLING EVENT, AND HIS UTTERANCES IN RESPONSE THERETO NOT ONLY LACK TRUSTWORTHINESS, BUT THEY ARE NOT -- CAN I BORROW THE EVIDENCE CODE FOR A SECOND?
THE COURT: KEEP GOING.
MS. CLARK: I JUST NEED THE EVIDENCE CODE FOR A SECOND, YOUR HONOR. I WANTED TO SEE THE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE I WANTED TO READ.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
IT HAS TO PURPORT TO "NARRATE, DESCRIBE OR EXPLAIN AN ACT, CONDITION OR EVENT."
HIS RESPONSE TO THE NEWSCASTS NEITHER EXPLAINS, NARRATES OR DESCRIBES THE NEWSCASTS, NOR CAN THE NEWSCAST BE TERMED TO BE AN ACT, CONDITION OR EVENT.
THESE ARE ALL ONGOING TELEVISION BROADCASTS THAT WERE ON FOR THE ENTIRE DAY. IT ALSO HAS TO BE MADE SPONTANEOUSLY WHILE THE DECLARANT IS UNDER THE STRESS OF EXCITEMENT CAUSED BY THE PERCEPTION.
THE PERCEPTION WAS WAY EARLY ON AT THE POLICE STATION, NOT NEWLY DISCOVERED AT THAT POINT.
THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING IN THE MANNER IN WHICH ANY OF THESE EVENTS TRANSPIRED WITH THE DEFENDANT THERE IN THE FAMILY ROOM THAT QUALIFIES UNDER 1240 OF THE EVIDENCE CODE.
THE COURT: I TAKE IT WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY IS BASED UPON THE OFFER OF PROOF THAT THERE IS AN INADEQUATE FOUNDATION?
MS. CLARK: NOT JUST AN INADEQUATE FOUNDATION, I'M SAYING THERE CAN NEVER BE ADEQUATE FOUNDATION
FOR THE CIRCUMSTANCE UNDER WHICH THE UTTERANCES WERE MADE.
THE COURT: PERHAPS NOT NEVER, BUT IT IS CERTAINLY UNLIKELY IS WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING?
MS. CLARK: YES.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I THINK THAT COUNSEL -- I WOULD LIKE, AS WE DO THIS 402, TO RENEW THIS, AND I WOULD LIKE TO SPELL OUT WHAT I INDICATED TO THE COURT.
I WOULD LIKE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPELL OUT THESE THINGS.
THESE ONLY -- REFERS ONLY TO SPONTANEOUS. I THINK THERE IS A STATE OF MIND EXCEPTION TO THIS.
AND THEY MAKE THIS BIG THING ABOUT THE STATE OF MIND. LOOK AT ALL THE TIME THEY SPENT WITH PHILLIPS TALKING ABOUT HE DIDN'T REACT LIKE A MAN WHO JUST HEARD HIS WIFE HAS BEEN KILLED AND EVEN ASKED, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE HAS BEEN KILLED?" AND WE WENT THROUGH ALL THAT.
AND NOW --
THE COURT: BUT YOU HAVE ALSO BEEN ALLOWED TO GET IN THROUGH THIS WITNESS THAT HE WAS UPSET, HE WAS DISTRAUGHT AND SHE HAD NEVER HEARD HIM REACT IN THIS WAY EVER BEFORE IN HER LIFE, AND THAT WAS CONTEMPORANEOUS TO THE SAME CONVERSATION WITH THE DETECTIVES IN THE KITCHEN WHERE THE NOTIFICATION WAS MADE.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS TRUE.
THE COURT: YOU HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO PRESENT YOUR PART OF THAT.
MR. COCHRAN: YOU MAY FIND IT RELEVANT.
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: THEN AT THIS THIS POINT, SINCE WE ARE FIVE MINUTES TO THE NOON HOUR --
MR. COCHRAN: YES.
THE COURT: -- YOU ARE INDICATING YOU WANT AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A 402 HEARING TO PERHAPS PRESENT SOME ADDITIONAL --
MR. COCHRAN: YES.
THE COURT: MY INCLINATION IS TO TELL YOU THAT YOU HAVE AN INADEQUATE FOUNDATION AT THIS POINT BASED UPON THE OFFER OF PROOF.
MR. COCHRAN: JERRY UELMEN IS GOING TO HANDLE THE 402 ASPECT OF IT.
MS. CLARK: CAN WE TAKE IT UP AT 1:30, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: PROBABLY.
MR. DARDEN: CAN WE HAVE SOME SPECIFIC DISCOVERY AS TO WHAT THE STATEMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE?
THE COURT: WHICH STATEMENT?
MR. DARDEN: THE ONE THAT HE CLAIMS WAS SPONTANEOUS.
THE COURT: TO THE T.V.?
HE IS SAYING, "HOW CAN THEY ACCUSE ME OF THAT?" BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
MR. DARDEN: BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
MR. COCHRAN: HE WANTS A REPORT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
MR. COCHRAN: I WILL TRY TO WRITE HIM A REPORT OVER THE LUNCH HOUR.
MS. CLARK: MR. GORDON WILL RESPOND TO THE MOTION. I GUESS WE WILL TAKE THAT UP AT 1:30.
THE COURT: HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING ELSE?
MR. COCHRAN: VERY LITTLE, IF ANY, BUT THIS WOULD BE WHERE WE SHOULD PROBABLY CONCLUDE, SO I WANT TO DO THE 402 AND TALK TO HER ABOUT THE STATEMENT.
IS THAT ALL RIGHT?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, MAY I ASK YOU SOMETHING OFF THE RECORD, PLEASE?
THE COURT: SURE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE NOON HOUR AT THIS TIME.
I KNOW IT HAS BEEN FOUR DAYS SINCE YOU HAVE HEARD THIS.
PLEASE REMEMBER ALL MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU.
DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONG YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU, DO NOT ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU WITH REGARD TO THE CASE.
AND WE WILL STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 1:30.
MISS SIMPSON, YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU ARE ORDERED TO RETURN AT 1:30.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS.
(AT 11:58 A.M. THE NOON RECESS
WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:30 P.M. OF
THE SAME DAY.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, JULY 10, 1995
1:35 P.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
(APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED, ALSO
APPEARING, EDGAR R. PEASE, ESQUIRE, FOR
CAROL CONNOR.)
(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER.
DEFENDANT IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT.
MR. DARDEN, YOU HAD SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO BRING TO THE COURT'S ATTENTION?
MR. DARDEN: DID I?
MR. COCHRAN: I DID.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: MR. PEASE, WHO IS MISS CAROL CONNOR'S ATTORNEY, IS HERE. HE WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THE COURT IF HE MIGHT.
MR. PEASE: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
AS MR. COCHRAN SAID, I REPRESENT THE INTEREST OF CAROL CONNOR, WHO HAS BEEN CALLED AS A DEFENSE WITNESS.
YESTERDAY, I GOT A VERY DISTURBING CALL FROM HER. SHE WAS VERY UPSET. SHE WAS NEARLY IN TEARS. SHE SAID GLORIA ALLRED HAD CALLED HER INSISTING THAT SHE CALL THE PROSECUTION TEAM. SHE HAD A NUMBER, A SPECIFIC NUMBER TO GIVE HER.
MY CLIENT SAID, "YOU MUST SPEAK TO MY ATTORNEY." I HAVE NO OBJECTIONS TO HER SPEAKING TO THE PROSECUTION. THEY COULD HAVE CALLED ME. I WOULD HAVE MADE HER AVAILABLE.
THE GIST OF THE CALL WAS, "YOU MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SPEAK TO THE PROSECUTION?" SHE SAID, "I NEVER SAID THAT. SHE KEPT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH." THEY GOT INTO AN ARGUMENT. CAROL CONNOR HUNG UP THE PHONE.
SHE IMMEDIATELY CALLED ME AND TOLD ME WHAT HAD HAPPENED. I SAID, "DID YOU TELL THEM YOU WERE REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL? DID YOU TELL GLORIA ALLRED YOU WERE REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL?" SHE SAID, "WELL, YES, I TOLD HER, AND SHE INSISTED THAT I CALL THE PROSECUTION TEAM AND TO TAKE THIS PARTICULAR NUMBER."
SO -- INCIDENTALLY, LAST NIGHT, MISS CONNOR WENT TO A FUNCTION, A FUND RAISER AT THE BEVERLY HILLS HOTEL, AND GLORIA ALLRED WAS THERE. GLORIA CAME UP TO CAROL CONNOR AND BEGAN THE SAME TACTIC SHE SAID.
THE COURT: AFTER BEING ADVISED SHE WAS BEING REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL?
MR. PEASE: YES. IN FACT, CAROL CONNOR TOLD HER, "MY ATTORNEY IS ED PEASE. HE'S IN THE BOOK." MISS CONNOR SAID, "I'M NOT REFUSING TO TALK TO THEM, BUT TALK TO MY ATTORNEY. I JUST DON'T KNOW THE LAW. I DON'T KNOW WHAT MY RIGHTS ARE. PLEASE SPEAK TO MY ATTORNEY."
THEN GLORIA ALLRED TOLD HER, "I CAN SET IT UP FOR TONIGHT OR TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00 A.M." AND THAT WAS THE MOST DISTURBING PART OF THIS WHOLE SITUATION. I FELT IT WAS NECESSARY TO BRING THIS TO THE COURT'S ATTENTION.
IT SOUNDS AS IF -- AND IT SOUNDED TO MY CLIENT AS IF MISS ALLRED HAD THE ABILITY AND THE PHONE NUMBER TO SET UP AN APPOINTMENT AT -- ON SUNDAY EVENING OR ON MONDAY MORNING AT 9:00 O'CLOCK.
SHE CALLED ME BACK AGAIN UPSET AT 11:00 O'CLOCK. I HAD SPOKE TO HER THREE MORE TIMES BETWEEN 11:00 AND MIDNIGHT. SHE TOLD ME THE ENTIRE STORY OF THIS WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE A BREACH OF MY ABILITY TO PROPERLY COUNSEL MY CLIENT.
MY CLIENT IS IN A VERY SENSITIVE POSITION HERE COMING AS AN EARLY DEFENSE WITNESS, AND SHE WANTS TO TELL THE TRUTH AND SHE WANTS TO BE A CREDIBLE WITNESS; AND SUDDENLY SHE'S BEING INTIMIDATED BY SOMEONE WHO APPEARS TO ME TO HAVE SOME KIND OF ARRANGEMENT OR CONTACT WITH THE PROSECUTION.
IT'S ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE TO ME THAT THE PROSECUTION WOULD HAVE THAT AS A TACTIC. BUT BASED ON THE FACT THAT SHE WAS GIVING HER -- THAT GLORIA WAS GIVING CAROL CONNOR A PHONE NUMBER AND SPECIFIC TIMES, "TONIGHT OR TOMORROW AT 9:00 A.M.," IT SEEMED TO ME THAT SHE HAD THE ABILITY TO MAKE THE CONTACT OR TO CALL.
I BELIEVE THAT BY ASKING CAROL TO -- BY GIVING CAROL CONNOR THE NUMBER AND ASKING CAROL TO CALL THE DEFENSE -- EXCUSE ME -- CALL THE PROSECUTION TEAM, THAT SHE WAS CIRCUMVENTING MY RIGHTS AS AN ATTORNEY TO COUNSEL HER PROPERLY AND TO BE THERE; AND ALSO, SHE'S CIRCUMVENTING THE RIGHTS OF THE DEFENSE TO KNOW WHO'S SPEAKING TO THEIR WITNESS AND TO BE PROPERLY NOTIFIED.
AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE, THERE WAS NO REASON IN THE WORLD WHY CAROL CONNOR WOULD NOT BE AVAILABLE EQUALLY TO THE DEFENSE OR TO THE PROSECUTION IN THIS CASE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN, DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMENT?
MR. DARDEN: YOU KNOW, WE WERE NOTIFIED FRIDAY THAT GLORIA ALLRED WAS A FRIEND TO MISS CONNOR. AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE'VE ENCOUNTERED IN TERMS OF CONTACTING DEFENSE WITNESSES IS THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE WE ARE WHO WE CLAIM WE ARE, PARTICULARLY WHEN WE TRY TO CONTACT THEM OVER THE TELEPHONE.
AND SO IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT WE DID ASK GLORIA ALLRED TO CALL MISS CONNOR AND TO ADVISE HER THAT WE WOULD BE CALLING AND IT WOULD BE A MEMBER OF THE D.A.'S OFFICE.
AS FAR AS ANY INFORMATION OR KNOWLEDGE THAT MISS CONNOR WAS REPRESENTED --
THE COURT: USING GLORIA ALLRED AS AN AGENT OF THE PROSECUTION?
MR. DARDEN: WE'RE NOT USING GLORIA ALLRED AS AN AGENT OF THE PROSECUTION. GLORIA ALLRED AND MISS CONNOR ARE FRIENDS.
AT ANY EVENT, WE CALLED MISS CONNOR AND WE LEFT A MESSAGE FOR MISS CONNOR. AT NO TIME HAVE WE BEEN ADVISED SHE WAS REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL, THAT IS NOT UNTIL THIS MORNING.
THE COURT: MR. PEASE, WHAT REMEDY ARE YOU SEEKING FROM THE COURT?
MR. PEASE: WELL, YOUR HONOR, IN VIEW OF THE -- MR. DARDEN'S REVELATION HERE IS WHAT I SUSPECTED. I BELIEVE THAT MISS ALLRED HAS CIRCUMVENTED BOTH PROFESSIONAL COURTESY AND MAY BE IN VIOLATION OF SOME ETHICAL VIOLATION ON HER PART, WHICH IS NOT FOR ME TO DETERMINE, BUT IT APPEARS THAT IT ALSO MAY BE A VIOLATION BY THE PROSECUTION THEMSELVES BECAUSE IF THEY'RE ASKING AN AGENT OF THEIR'S TO MAKE A CALL OR THAT THEY KNOW SHE'S MAKING A CALL AND THEY'RE CIRCUMVENTING MY RIGHTS AS AN ATTORNEY AND ALSO THE DEFENSE RIGHTS TO KNOW ABOUT THE SITUATION, THAT THERE SHOULD BE -- THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING -- I WOULD LEAVE THAT TO THE COURT'S DISCRETION.
BUT FIRST, I THOUGHT SHE NEEDED TO APOLOGIZE TO ME FOR INTERFERING BETWEEN MY CLIENT AND MYSELF. BUT AFTER I SEE THE FULL EXTENT AND HEARING THE WHOLE SITUATION THAT'S HAPPENED, I BELIEVE THAT IT MAY BE THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME ADMONITION THAT THE COURT MIGHT DEAL WITH.
IT SOUNDS UNBELIEVABLE TO ME THAT THEY WOULD -- THE PROSECUTION WOULD USE A FRIEND OF MISS CONNOR'S TO PUT ON A LEGAL HAT AND -- CALL UNDER THE GUISE OF A FRIEND AND PUT ON A LEGAL HAT TO GET HER TO SPEAK TO THE PROSECUTION.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. PEASE, DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOUR CLIENT HAS A PERSONAL PRIOR RELATIONSHIP WITH MISS ALLRED?
MR. PEASE: THAT'S CORRECT. AND I WOULD CONSIDER THEM FRIENDS.
AND WHAT'S EVEN MORE IMPORTANT IN THIS CASE IS, MY CLIENT IS A VERY STRONG WOMAN'S ACTIVIST. SHE IS A BUSINESS WOMAN, A SONG WRITER, AN ACADEMY AWARD NOMINATED SONG WRITER FOR THE THEME TO ROCKY. SHE RUNS HER OWN BUSINESS, HAS AN ACCOUNTANT AND SHE IS A SINGLE WOMAN, SHE HAS AN ATTORNEY, WHO IS MYSELF.
SHE'S VERY MUCH IN TUNE WITH MISS ALLRED. BUT UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, IT BROKE DOWN YESTERDAY, AND I THINK THAT MISS ALLRED USED HER FRIENDSHIP AND PUT ON THE ATTORNEY CAP AND WAS UNDULY INFLUENCING MY CLIENT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
ANY OTHER COMMENT, MR. DARDEN?
MR. DARDEN: I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT WASN'T THE CASE. I HOPE THAT MISS ALLRED DID NOT SOMEHOW ABUSE HER POSITION AS AN ATTORNEY.
AS I INDICATED BEFORE, SHE HAD NO IDEA THAT MISS CONNOR HAD AN ATTORNEY. WE WERE GIVEN HER PHONE NUMBER BY THE DEFENSE IN OPEN COURT AS I RECALL AND INVITED TO CALL MISS CONNOR.
BUT IN ANY EVENT, I WOULD APOLOGIZE TO MISS CONNOR IF SHE FEELS SOMEHOW THE PROSECUTION HAS ACTED IN SOME WAY THAT SHE FINDS OFFENSIVE. I DO APOLOGIZE. WE CERTAINLY WEREN'T TRYING TO ABUSE OUR POSITION.
AND WHEN I MEET MISS CONNOR, I WILL APOLOGIZE TO HER PERSONALLY ON BEHALF OF MISS CLARK AND MYSELF AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN RESOLVE THE PROBLEM. WE WOULD STILL LIKE TO SPEAK TO MISS CONNOR IF MR. PEASE IS WILLING.
THE COURT: MR. PEASE MADE HIS CLIENT AVAILABLE TO EITHER SIDE, INDICATED THAT SHE HAS NO INTEREST IN FAVORING ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER, AND HE'S INDICATED THAT IF YOU DEAL THROUGH HIM, THAT HE'LL MAKE HIS CLIENT AVAILABLE TO SPEAK TO YOU. THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.
MR. PEASE: THAT'S CORRECT. THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN OUR POSITION. A SIMPLE PHONE CALL TO ME WOULD HAVE RESOLVED THIS IN A MINUTE.
THE COURT: AS A MATTER OF PROFESSIONAL COURTESY.
MR. PEASE: THAT'S CORRECT.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, I'M GOING TO ORDER THAT THE PROSECUTION HAVE NO DIRECT CONTACT THEN WITH MISS CONNOR EXCEPT THROUGH MR. PEASE. AND HE'S INDICATED HE WILL MAKE MISS CONNOR AVAILABLE TO YOU, AND I TAKE IT AS FAR AS --
ARE WE CLEAR ON THAT?
MR. DARDEN: YES.
MR. PEASE: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR.
I WOULD LIKE TO SAY, MR. COCHRAN ADVISED ME THAT MISS CONNOR MAY BE TAKING THE STAND TODAY. SHE'S HERE WITH ME NOW UPSTAIRS. SHE MAY BE TESTIFYING BEFORE THAT OPPORTUNITY COMES TO THE PROSECUTION.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, WHO WILL BE CONDUCTING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MISS CONNOR?
MR. DARDEN: I WILL.
THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU AND MR. PEASE --
I TAKE IT, MISS CLARK, YOU'RE GOING TO BE HANDLING CROSS-EXAMINATION OF ARNELLE SIMPSON?
MS. CLARK: I AM.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
I SUGGEST PERHAPS, MR. DARDEN, YOU OUGHT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO CHAT WITH MR. PEASE.
MR. DARDEN: THAT WILL BE FINE.
THANK YOU.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, MR. PEASE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: I DID -- HOWEVER, I THINK THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE INDICATED PREVIOUSLY IN COURT AND BEFORE YOU THAT ALL THESE WITNESSES ARE REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL. SO THEY -- BOTH SIDES SHOULD BE AWARE OF THAT.
CERTAINLY MOST OF OUR WITNESSES HAVE COUNSEL. SO THEY SHOULD GO THROUGH THOSE COUNSEL. THAT'S BEEN THE SITUATION. IN FACT, IF YOU RECALL, MR. DOUGLAS, BEFORE WE LEFT COURT ON FRIDAY, GAVE THE PROSECUTION MISS CONNOR'S PHONE NUMBER. HE HANDED IT TO MR. DARDEN. SO WE'RE TRYING TO COOPERATE.
MR. DARDEN: I THINK I JUST ALLUDED TO THAT.
IF COUNSEL HAS A LIST OF ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE WITNESSES, I WOULD APPRECIATE HAVING THAT LIST. OTHERWISE, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CONTACT THE WITNESSES AND THE WITNESS IS GOING TO HAVE TO INFORM US THAT THEY'RE REPRESENTED.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
I'LL DIRECT THAT.
ALL RIGHT.
WHAT'S OUR OTHER ISSUES, MR. COCHRAN?
MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO THE OTHER ISSUE, YOU ASKED IF I HAD --
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. COCHRAN: YOU ASKED ME IF I HAD ANY OTHER QUESTIONS, AND I TOLD YOU I MIGHT HAVE A COUPLE.
I HAVE REALLY ONLY TWO AREAS OR TWO AREAS OF QUESTIONS, WILL BE VERY SHORT I BELIEVE, AND THEN WE WOULD GET TO THE QUESTION OF A 402 HEARING, WHICH WOULD ENCOMPASS THE LETTER FROM NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND ALSO THE -- WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S A STATE OF MIND EXCEPTION FOR ANY STATEMENTS MADE BY MR. SIMPSON WHEN HE WAS EITHER WATCHING TELEVISION OR DURING THOSE CONVERSATIONS.
MR. UELMEN -- PROFESSOR UELMEN WILL BE HANDLING THOSE ASPECTS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LET'S HANDLE THOSE NOW.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
YOU WANT TO DO THAT NOW?
THE COURT: YES.
MR. COCHRAN: VERY WELL. AND THEN GO BACK TO THE OTHER QUESTIONS?
MS. CLARK: MAY WE HAVE A MOMENT?
MR. DARDEN: WE NEED TO GET MR. GORDON DOWN TO HANDLE THE 402 MATTER.
MR. COCHRAN: I COULD ASK ANOTHER QUESTION.
THE COURT: MY UNDERSTANDING, WE WERE GOING TO DO THIS AT 1:30.
MS. CLARK: IT WAS MINE TOO.
MR. DARDEN: I WASN'T CONFUSED.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING ALSO.
MR. DARDEN: MATTER OF FACT, HE HANDED ME SOME P'S AND A'S JUST A SHORT WHILE AGO. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE FILED THESE OR NOT.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. DARDEN: WAS THAT THE ONLY ISSUE, YOUR HONOR, THE 402 ISSUE?
THE COURT: TWO 402 ISSUES. YES.
MR. DARDEN: AND ONE OF THOSE ISSUES RELATES TO THE WATCHING OF TELEVISION, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YES.
MR. DARDEN: MISS CLARK CAN HANDLE THAT ONE, THAT PART OF IT.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. UELMEN, DO YOU WANT TO ADDRESS THE STATE OF MIND ISSUE REGARDING COMMENTS MADE BY THE DEFENDANT?
MR. UELMEN: YES, YOUR HONOR.
WE WOULD CONTEND THAT THIS WOULD COME WITHIN SECTION 1250 OF THE EVIDENCE CODE AS EVIDENCE OF THE STATEMENT OF THE DECLARANT'S THEN EXISTING STATE OF MIND, EMOTION OR PHYSICAL SENSATION.
THIS EVIDENCE IS OFFERED TO PROVE MR. SIMPSON'S STATE OF MIND, AND WE BELIEVE ON THAT BASIS ALONE, SIMPLY THE EXCLAMATIONS MADE INDICATING WHAT HIS STATE OF MIND WAS AT THE TIME THESE EVENTS WERE TAKING PLACE WOULD COME WITHIN THAT HEARSAY EXCEPTION.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: YES.
AS I'VE ALREADY INDICATED AT SIDEBAR, YOUR HONOR, THIS -- THESE PURPORTED STATEMENTS FIT NO ASPECT OF THE EVIDENCE CODE UNDER SECTION 1240. THERE'S NO FOUNDATION LAID.
NO. 1, THOUGH, AS I INDICATED TO THE COURT, I DON'T SEE HOW A FOUNDATION COULD EVER BE LAID. WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT AT THE POINT IN TIME THAT THE WITNESSES ARE DISCUSSING THE FACT THAT HE'S AT ROCKINGHAM WATCHING THE TELEVISION AND MAKING EXCLAMATIONS, HE HAS ALREADY BEEN INTERROGATED BY THE POLICE, HAD HIS PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN --
THE COURT: WELL, MISS CLARK, FORGIVE ME FOR INTERRUPTING YOU, BUT I UNDERSTOOD MR. UELMEN'S ARGUMENT TO BE UNDER THE BUBRICK OF 1250, STATE OF MIND, NOT SPONTANEOUS DECLARATION, 1240.
MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME.
AND UNDER 1250 -- EVEN MORE SO UNDER 1250. 1250 EXPLICITLY STATES THAT THERE HAS TO BE AN ASPECT OF TRUSTWORTHINESS TO THE STATEMENT, AND THAT FOUNDATION COULD NEVER BE LAID.
WITH RESPECT TO THE DEFENDANT'S EXISTING MENTAL OR PHYSICAL STATE, THERE HAS NOT BEEN PROFFERED ANY MENTAL DEFENSE IN THIS CASE. IT'S AN ALIBI.
AND 1250 IS MOST APPROPRIATELY APPLIED IN CASES WHERE YOU HAVE A MENTAL -- SOME KIND OF MENTAL CONDITION OFFERED BY WAY OF A DEFENSE WHICH MAKES IT IN ISSUE.
THE DEFENDANT'S DEMEANOR IS ONE THING. BUT A 1250 EXCEPTION ALLOWING FOR THE ADMISSION OF HEARSAY IS A QUITE DIFFERENT THING FOR WHICH CERTAIN FOUNDATION HAS TO BE LAID.
NO. -- WITH RESPECT TO THE VERY FIRST NO. 1 UNDER THAT SECTION:
"THE EVIDENCE HAS TO BE OFFERED TO PROVE THE DECLARANT'S STATE OF MIND, EMOTION OR PHYSICAL SENSATION WHEN IT IS ITSELF AN ISSUE IN THE ACTION. THE DEFENDANT'S STATE OF MIND, EMOTION OR PHYSICAL CONDITION OR SENSATION IS NOT ITSELF AN ISSUE IN THE ACTION."
WE ARE TALKING -- THE DEFENSE WANTS TO PROFFER THIS EVIDENCE TO SHOW THE DEFENDANT'S DEMEANOR, CIRCUMSTANTIALLY PROVING THAT HE COULD NOT BEHAVE IN THAT MANNER IF HE HAD ACTUALLY JUST MURDERED HIS WIFE AND RON GOLDMAN.
THAT'S A DIFFERENT SITUATION THAN HIS STATE OF MIND BEING IN ISSUE IN THE ACTION. IT IS NOT WITHIN THE MEANING OF THIS CODE SECTION AND IT'S NOT OFFERED TO PROVE OR EXPLAIN ACTS OR CONDUCT OF THE DECLARANT IN THIS CASE BECAUSE THERE IS NO ACT OR CONDUCT AT THE TIME OF THE WATCHING OF THE TELEVISION THAT REQUIRES EXPLANATION OR ELUCIDATION.
AND FURTHERMORE, THE FOUNDATIONAL ASPECT OF TRUSTWORTHINESS IS MISSING. WE HAVE THE DEFENDANT SURROUNDED BY FRIENDS AND FAMILY WATCHING TELEVISION REPORTS THAT CLEARLY APPEAR TO BE DESCRIBING EVIDENCE THAT'S VERY INCRIMINATING, VERY INCULPATORY IN NATURE.
WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO IF HE INTENDS TO GET AWAY WITH THIS? SAY, "THEY GOT ME"? YOU KNOW, NOT IF HE'S INTENDING TO GET AWAY WITH IT. SO OBVIOUSLY HE'S GOING TO SAY, "I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. CAN'T BELIEVE THEY'RE SAYING THIS. HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLY SAY THIS ABOUT ME?"
SO YOU HAVE NEITHER THE INDICIA OF TRUSTWORTHINESS NOR DO YOU HAVE THE APPROPRIATE SITUATION TO ALLOW IT. THE DEFENDANT'S STATE OF MIND IS NOT AT ISSUE IN THE ACTION UNTIL -- UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE DEFENSE INTENDS TO PROFFER A MENTAL DEFENSE.
SO THE PEOPLE WOULD SUBMIT THAT THIS CODE SECTION IS INAPPLICABLE TO THE INSTANT CASE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. UELMEN, DO YOU HAVE ANY BRIEF RESPONSE TO THAT?
MR. UELMEN: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THIS REALLY JUST GOES TO THE BASIC PRINCIPAL OF DEMEANOR EVIDENCE. WHO ELSE IS A DEFENDANT GOING TO BE SURROUNDED WITH AT A TIME WHEN HE HAS JUST LEARNED OF HIS WIFE'S DEATH OTHER THAN FRIENDS AND FAMILY? THOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY ARE THEMSELVES GOING TO COME TO THE WITNESS STAND AND DESCRIBE THEIR IMPRESSIONS OF HIS DEMEANOR AT THIS TIME. AND CERTAINLY AN ALTERNATIVE WAY OF SHOWING THAT DEMEANOR IS TO SHOW THE STATEMENTS THAT HE MADE AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME ABOUT HIS STATE OF MIND, EMOTION OR PHYSICAL SENSATION.
SO IN EVERY RESPECT, THIS STATE OF MIND IS RELEVANT AT THIS POINT AND THE HEARSAY EXCEPTION CLEARLY APPLIES. ALL WE ARE ASKING FOR ARE STATEMENTS OF HIS STATE OF MIND, EMOTION OR PHYSICAL SENSATION AT THAT TIME, THAT IS AT THE VERY TIME THESE STATEMENTS ARE MADE.
THE COURT: WHAT STATEMENTS?
MR. UELMEN: THE STATEMENTS OF HOW HE IS FEELING AND REACTING TO THE NEWS REPORTS OF HIS WIFE'S DEATH.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT. THE OBJECTION AS INDICATED PREVIOUSLY IN OUR DISCUSSIONS AT SIDEBAR, I INDICATED I FELT THAT THERE WAS A LACK OF FOUNDATION UNDER EITHER 1240 OR 1250 FOR THESE STATEMENTS.
THE ARGUMENT IS NOW COUCHED UNDER 1250, STATE OF MIND. THE STATE OF MIND AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT IN TIME IS NOT A PARTICULARLY RELEVANT ISSUE. I AGREE THAT THERE'S ANOTHER PROBLEM.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SPECIFIC NEWS REPORT THAT IS BEING REACTED TO. SO THE CONTEXT OF THE STATEMENT ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN MADE BY THE DEFENDANT IS QUITE UNCLEAR. I DON'T SEE THE INDICIA OF TRUTHFULNESS NECESSARILY THERE BECAUSE OF THAT FAILURE.
AND ALSO, GIVEN THE VAGUE NATURE OF THIS PARTICULAR STATEMENT BY THE TELEVISION NEWSCAST, I FIND IT TOO AMORPHOUS TO HAVE A CLEAR IDEA OF WHAT'S BEING RESPONDED TO. I THINK IT WOULD BE AN UNDUE USE OF THE COURT'S TIME.
SO I'LL SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION ALSO UNDER 352.
ALL RIGHT.
OTHER ISSUE, THE STATEMENT -- THE LETTER.
MR. UELMEN.
MR. UELMEN: LET ME START WITH A DETAILED OFFER OF PROOF, YOUR HONOR, AND THEN INDICATE THE THEORY UNDER WHICH WE BELIEVE THIS IS ADMISSIBLE.
WE HAVE, AND I BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN LODGED WITH THE COURT, A DOCUMENT CONSISTING OF FIVE PAGES, HANDWRITTEN LETTER WHICH WE BELIEVE WE CAN ESTABLISH WAS WRITTEN BY NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON TO O.J. SIMPSON AND DELIVERED TO HIM ALONG WITH SOME VIDEOTAPES OF THEIR WEDDING AND FAMILY VIDEOTAPES IN MARCH OF 1993.
NOW, THE RELEVANCE OF THIS OF COURSE TAKES US BACK TO THE RULING OF THE COURT WITH RESPECT TO ALL OF THE PREVIOUS INCIDENTS IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN O.J. SIMPSON AND NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON THAT THIS COURT HEARD EVIDENCE AS TO PRIOR TO TRIAL, MADE A PRETRIAL RULING, AND THEN THOSE INCIDENTS WERE ADMITTED.
AND THOSE INCIDENTS INCLUDED ALTERCATIONS GOING BACK TO 1985. THEY INCLUDED TWO INCIDENTS RESULTING IN 911 CALLS, ONE OF WHICH TOOK PLACE IN 1989, THE OTHER OF WHICH TOOK PLACE IN OCTOBER OF 1993. AND THEN INTERVENING DURING THIS TIME WAS A DIVORCE OF THE PARTIES IN JANUARY OF 1992.
NOW, THE THEORY UNDER WHICH THE PROSECUTION IS OFFERING ALL OF THESE PRIOR INCIDENTS IS THAT THEY ARE RELEVANT TO SHOW MR. SIMPSON'S STATE OF MIND, TO SHOW MOTIVE, TO SHOW INTENT, TO SHOW PLAN AND FINALLY TO SHOW THE IDENTITY OF THE PERPETRATOR OF THIS MURDER.
AND WHAT THE PROSECUTOR WANTS IS FOR THE JURY TO DRAW FROM THESE INCIDENTS SOME INFERENCE THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS OBSESSED WITH JEALOUSY OVER HIS WIFE, AS I BELIEVE MR. DARDEN PUT IT IN HIS OPENING STATEMENT, THAT HE COULDN'T STAND THE THOUGHT OF LOSING HER, THAT HE WAS OBSESSED WITH CONTROLLING HER.
SO NOW COMES THE DEFENSE TURN TO REBUT THIS EVIDENCE, AND WE ARE GOING TO REBUT IT BY SHOWING THERE WAS NOT A MOTIVE AND THERE WAS NO INTENT, THAT THERE WAS NO PLAN, THAT THE INFERENCES THAT THE PROSECUTION WANTS TO DRAW FROM ALL OF THIS EVIDENCE SIMPLY ARE NOT TRUE AND SHOULD NOT BE DRAWN BY THE JURY.
AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN GO ABOUT PRODUCING REBUTTAL EVIDENCE IN THIS REGARD. THIS IS ONE OF THEM.
WE ARE OFFERING THIS LETTER REALLY AS A VERBAL ACT TO SHOW THAT THE RESUMPTION OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND MR. SIMPSON WAS INITIATED BY MRS. SIMPSON, THAT WHAT WAS GOING ON HERE WAS NOT SOME SORT OF OBSESSIVE EFFORT TO CONTROL HIS FORMER WIFE, BUT THAT SHE INITIATED A TRIAL PERIOD IN WHICH THEY WOULD RESUME THEIR RELATIONSHIP.
NOW, WE ARE NOT OFFERING THIS LETTER FOR THE TRUTH OF ITS CONTENTS. I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT TO BEAR IN MIND. WE FRANKLY MAKE NO OFFER AT ALL WITH RESPECT TO THE SINCERITY OR THE TRUTH OF ANY OF THE REPRESENTATIONS MADE IN THIS LETTER.
THE REASON WE WANT TO OFFER THIS LETTER IS TO SHOW THE IMPACT, THE EFFECT THAT IT HAD ON THE MIND OF THE RECIPIENT, THAT IS MR. SIMPSON.
AND WE WILL SHOW THAT AFTER HE RECEIVED THIS LETTER, HE SOUGHT TO BE COUNSELED BY BOTH HIS MOTHER, HIS DAUGHTER. HE SHOWED THEM THE LETTER. THEY TALKED ABOUT IT, AND THE RELATIONSHIP WAS RESUMED ON A VERY TENTATIVE KIND OF TRY IT OUT BASIS.
AND THIS LETTER EXPLAINS WHY THAT TOOK PLACE. IN THAT RESPECT, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENSE TO REBUT THE INFERENCES THAT THE PROSECUTION IS SEEKING TO DRAW FROM ALL OF THE PRIOR INCIDENTS THAT WERE ADMITTED.
AND I REMIND YOUR HONOR WHEN YOU ADMITTED THOSE PRIOR INCIDENTS, YOU SAID THESE ARE NOT COMING IN AS EVIDENCE OF CHARACTER OF MR. SIMPSON; THEY ARE ONLY BEING ADMITTED TO SHOW MOTIVE, INTENT, PLAN AND IDENTITY.
SO WHAT THE PROSECUTION WANTS TO DO WITH THESE INCIDENTS IS KIND OF DRAW THEM ALTOGETHER INTO SOME SORT OF ESCALATING PROGRESSION OF EVENTS THAT ULTIMATELY LED TO THE ACT OF MURDER. AND WE ARE ENTITLED WE BELIEVE TO SHOW THAT THAT'S NOT THE PROGRESSION OF EVENTS THAT ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE AT ALL, THAT IN FACT THESE INCIDENTS WERE INTERRUPTED BY OTHER CONTACTS AND THAT IN REACTION TO ONE OF THOSE CONTACTS, IN RESPONSE TO THE RECEIPT OF THIS LETTER, MR. SIMPSON RESUMED A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS WIFE IN MARCH OF 1993, IN MARCH OF 1993, FOUR MONTHS.
THE COURT: MR. UELMEN, IF I FOLLOW THAT ARGUMENT, THEN WOULDN'T I ALSO HAVE TO REVISIT MY RULING ON THE SOJOURN STATEMENT WHERE FIVE DAYS BEFORE THE INCIDENT, NICOLE BROWN SAYS TO A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE COUNSELOR, "MY EX-HUSBAND IS STALKING ME AND HE SAYS HE'S GOING TO KILL ME?" SHOULD I LET THAT IN TOO?
MR. UELMEN: NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. BECAUSE THAT --
THE COURT: WELL, THEN WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO?
MR. UELMEN: THAT'S NOT RELEVANT TO THE DEFENDANT'S STATE OF MIND.
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS MR. SIMPSON'S STATE OF MIND. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MR. SIMPSON'S MOTIVE, MR. SIMPSON'S INTENT, MR. SIMPSON'S PLAN, AND ONLY STATEMENTS THAT WERE MADE TO MR. SIMPSON WOULD BE RELEVANT TO SHOW HIS STATE OF MIND IN RESPONSE TO OR IN REACTION TO THOSE STATEMENTS.
AND THAT'S THE REASON. AGAIN, WE'RE SAYING IT'S NOT -- WE'RE NOT OFFERING THIS LETTER FOR THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS ASSERTED IN THE LETTER. THAT'S THE REASON IT'S NOT HEARSAY. IT IS BEING OFFERED ESSENTIALLY AS A VERBAL ACT TO SHOW AND EXPLAIN THE RESPONSE AND REACTION OF MR. SIMPSON TO THAT VERBAL ACT.
IT CAN BE AUTHENTICATED THROUGH THE WITNESSES THAT ARE PROPOSE TO QUESTION ABOUT IT WHO CAN -- IT'S AN UNDATED LETTER. THEY CAN FIX THE TIME AT WHICH THIS LETTER WAS RECEIVED. THEY CAN IDENTIFY THE HANDWRITING IN WHICH THE LETTER WAS WRITTEN, AND BASED ON WHEN THE LETTER WAS RECEIVED, WE BELIEVE CAN EXPLAIN THE SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT OF MR. SIMPSON.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL ABOUT HERE, TO EXPLAIN HIS CONDUCT, TO SHOW THAT THERE IS AN EXPLANATION OTHER THAN THE INFERENCES THAT THE PROSECUTION WANTS TO DRAW FROM ALL OF THESE PRIOR INCIDENTS COMING INTO EVIDENCE, THE INFERENCE THAT IT SHOWS A MOTIVE, IT SHOWS INTENT, IT SHOWS A PLAN.
AND WE BELIEVE WE'RE ENTITLED TO SHOW JUST THE OPPOSITE TO REBUT THAT, TO SHOW THAT INFERENCE SHOULD NOT BE DRAWN, TO SHOW THAT ANOTHER INFERENCE SHOULD BE DRAWN WITH RESPECT TO THE NATURE OF THIS RELATIONSHIP.
THERE'S NO PROBLEM OF COURSE WITH YOUR HONOR GIVING A LIMITING INSTRUCTION JUST AS WHEN YOU ADMITTED THE PRIOR INCIDENTS, YOU TOLD THE JURY, THESE ARE COMING IN FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE OF SHOWING MOTIVE, PURPOSE.
AND WHEN ARE LET THIS LETTER IN, ARE CAN SAY, "LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THIS IS NOT BEING ADMITTED FOR THE TRUTH OF WHAT'S ASSERTED. IT IS BEING ADMITTED SIMPLY TO SHOW THE IMPACT THAT IT HAD ON THE RECIPIENT, AND THIS EVIDENCE IS SIMPLY TO REBUT ANY INFERENCE OF MOTIVE, INTENT OR PLAN. IT IS NOT OFFERED AS EVIDENCE OF MR. SIMPSON'S CHARACTER AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED FOR THAT PURPOSE."
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. UELMEN, DO YOU HAVE ANY CASE AUTHORITY THAT DEALS WITH A SIMILAR SITUATION?
MR. UELMEN: WELL, IN RESPONSE TO THE INQUIRY THIS MORNING FROM MR. GORDON, I DID MAKE AN EFFORT TO LOCATE A COUPLE OF CASES DEALING PRECISELY WITH THE RIGHT OF THE DEFENSE TO NEGATE MOTIVE. THAT IS, JUST AS THE PROSECUTION CAN OFFER EVIDENCE OF MOTIVE, THE DEFENSE IS ENTITLED TO OFFER EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE OF MOTIVE, AND THERE ARE A COUPLE CASES WHERE COURTS HAVE HELD THAT IT WAS ERROR TO EXCLUDE SUCH EVIDENCE.
THOSE CASES INCLUDE PEOPLE VERSUS SMITH, 204 CAL. APP. 2D. 797, A 1962 CASE, AND PEOPLE VERSUS WEATHERFORD, 27 CAL. 2D 401 AT 423, A 1945 CASE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
MR. GORDON.
MR. GORDON: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
A COUPLE OF ISSUES. AND I THINK THE COURT CITED OR QUESTIONED -- IDENTIFIED I THINK ONE OF THE MOST MAJOR ISSUES HERE.
WHEN ARE FILED OUR INITIAL MOTION OR OUR RESPONSE TO THE DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO EXCLUDE EVIDENCE WITH REGARD TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, ARE DETAILED FOR THE COURT AND FOR COUNSEL A NUMBER OF INCIDENTS, STATEMENTS, EVIDENCE ARE HAD. AND IN -- DURING THE LITIGATION OF THAT MOTION, ARE WENT THROUGH AND INDICATED THAT ARE WERE ONLY SEEKING TO INTRODUCE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF THESE UNDER THIS 1101/PRIOR CONDUCT TYPE THEORY.
THE OTHER ONES, ARE INDICATED TO THE COURT AND TO COUNSEL BASICALLY WERE THERE SO EVERYONE HAD NOTICE ON AND MAY WELL COME BACK AND BE REVISITED UPON IF AN EFFORT EXACTLY AS THE ONE SUCH AS THIS OCCURS, THAT THERE ARE MANY DOORS THAT CAN BE OPENED, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE'RE DEALING WITH STATES OF MIND WITHIN A RELATIONSHIP.
AND OUR CONCERN WITH THIS LETTER ARE A COUPLE. ONE IS FOUNDATIONAL. WE HAVE AN UNDATED LETTER COMING IN NOT, FROM, IF I UNDERSTAND THE PROFFER, NOT TO THE RECIPIENT, NOT TO THE PERSON WHO GOT IT, NOT TO THE PERSON WHO'S SUPPOSEDLY GOING TO INDICATE WHAT STATE OF MIND THEY MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE. THAT'S ONE PROP, TO BRING A THIRD PARTY TO TALK ABOUT A LETTER --
THE COURT: BUT DON'T I HAVE TO -- I HAVE TO ASSUME THOUGH THERE'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE A FOUNDATION FOR THIS. WE'VE SEEN MISS BROWN SIMPSON'S HANDWRITING BEFORE. THIS APPEARS TO BE SIMILAR. THE TWO VIDEOTAPES WERE TAKEN IN THE COURSE OF THE SEARCH WARRANT. WE'VE SEEN THEM. WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. ARE CAN ASSUME THAT THESE ARE THE TWO VIDEOTAPES THAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT IN THIS LETTER, CORRECT?
MR. GORDON: YES, SIR.
THE COURT: SO I ASSUME THAT THE DEFENSE AT SOME POINT IN TIME CAN LAY THOSE FOUNDATIONS.
MR. GORDON: THAT ELEMENT AS TO FOUNDATION, CORRECT, AS TO AUTHENTICATING THE LETTER THAT THIS CAME -- THIS IS IN MISS BROWN'S HANDWRITING ACCOMPANYING THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, ASK THEM TO PHOTOGRAPH THAT.
THAT SECOND PART OF THE FOUNDATION, TO HEAR MR. UELMEN'S ARGUMENT, THAT SOMETHING HAPPENED IN RESPONSE TO THIS OR THAT THIS CAUSED SOME ACTION OR THAT THE WORDS WITHIN THAT LETTER WERE EVER READ, UNDERSTOOD, ACTED UPON, UNDER -- IN ANY WAY DEALT WITH, THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
WHEN YOU HAVE A THIRD PARTY WITNESS WHO SAYS -- IF I SAY, "I GAVE THE JUDGE A PIECE OF PAPER, AND THIS IS WHAT HE DID OR WHAT HE BELIEVED BECAUSE OF IT," WITHOUT YOU TEST -- WITHOUT THE RECIPIENT TESTIFYING AS TO THEIR STATE OF MIND AS TO WHAT OCCURRED, THAT'S THE PROBLEM AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE THE ATTEMPT TO DO, IS TO TRY TO GET SOMEONE ELSE TO TESTIFY AS TO WHAT THIS DEFENDANT'S STATE OF MIND IS SIMILARLY WITHOUT HIM TESTIFYING TO WHAT IT IS. HE CAN'T -- THERE'S NO FOUNDATION. YOU CAN'T DO THAT.
THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD DO IT --
THE COURT: WELL, SUPPOSE THE DEFENDANT TESTIFIES. THEN WOULDN'T THIS BECOME ADMISSIBLE?
MR. GORDON: I THINK IF THE DEFENDANT TESTIFIES, ARE MAY HAVE A CERTAIN -- IF THE DEFENDANT TESTIFIES, ARE CERTAINLY MAY BE IN A DIFFERENT POSITION.
AND AS ARE PUT THE COURT AND THE DEFENDANT ON NOTICE AND AS THE COURT INDICATED, IT CERTAINLY -- THERE'S A LOT WITH REGARD TO HIS STATE OF MIND AND I THINK THE VICTIM'S STATE OF MIND, WHICH IS WHAT THIS WOULD OPEN UP, THAT COULD BE INQUIRED TO AND WE COULD THEN MAKE -- INQUIRE QUESTIONS OF HIM AS TO HIS STATE OF MIND AND HIS RELIANCE SUCH AS THE BASE STATEMENT OF IF WHAT IS OCCURRING THIS, AS MR. UELMEN INDICATES, IS THAT IN SOME TIME IN 1993, HE GOT THIS AND FELT THAT EVERYTHING WAS GOING FINE IN THE MARRIAGE AND THIS PUT HIM IN A STATE OF MIND THAT HE WASN'T JEALOUS, EVERYTHING WAS FINE.
THEN WHY IN OCTOBER OF 1993 DO WE HAVE HIM CHARGING THROUGH HER HOUSE SCREAMING AT HER, HAVING TO HAVE THE POLICE CALLED, WHICH CERTAINLY ISN'T EVIDENCE IN ANY WAY IN CONFORMITY WITH THE PICTURE THAT MR. UELMEN WOULD PAINT BEFORE US, WHICH, SINCE ARE DON'T KNOW THE TIME, WOULD APPEAR TO BE CONTEMPORANEOUS WHEN THIS OFFER OF THIS SUPPOSED ACCEPTANCE OF THE TERMINATION OF MARRIAGE OCCURS.
THE OTHER PROBLEM WITH IT IS -- AND I THINK THE COURT'S INDICATED, WHAT THIS REALLY DOES AND WHAT THEIR INTENT IS WITH THIS LETTER IS TO SOMEHOW -- IS TO PUT THE VICTIM'S STATE OF MIND IN BECAUSE IF WHAT THE DEFENDANT IS SAYING -- IF WHAT THE DEFENSE IS ARGUING IS TRUE, THEN THE TEXT OF THIS DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL.
IF THE TESTIMONY IS RECEIVED A PIECE OF PAPER AND THEN ACTED IN CONFORMITY WITH THAT AS A VERBAL ACT, THEN WHAT IS SAID NOT FOR THE TRUTH DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. POSSIBLY WHO THE AUTHOR IS OR AUTHORESS COMES IN. NOTHING ELSE.
WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IS GET THE TEXT IN AND WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IS CARVE OUT SO THEY CAN SELECTIVELY PAINT WHAT THIS VICTIM'S STATE OF MIND IS. THE COURT KNOWS AND WE KNOW WHAT HER STATE OF MIND IS, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO HER STATEMENTS OF FEARS TO FRIENDS, TO HER RELATIVES, TO A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTER, HER DOCUMENTATION OF INCIDENTS, HER DIARY.
ALL OF THAT EVIDENCE WHICH THE COURT AND DEFENSE HAVE NOTICE OF SPECIFICALLY INDICATES WHAT HER STATE OF MIND IS. AND IF WHAT THE INTENT HERE IS IS TO OPEN HER STATE OF MIND, WHICH IS THE ONLY THING I THINK THAT IS REALLY GOING ON HERE, THEN THAT EVIDENCE -- THEN THAT EVIDENCE COMES IN.
BUT TO TRY TO CARVE OUT SOME NARROW TUNNEL TO GET HER -- TO PUT A STATE OF MIND OF THE VICTIM IN, WHICH IS NOT THE TRUTH, WHICH DOESN'T REFLECT WHAT WAS OCCURRING WITH THIS WOMAN, WHICH CERTAINLY DOES NOT REFLECT WHAT WAS OCCURRING AT THE TIME WHICH IS IN QUESTION, WHICH WAS IN JUNE OF 1994 WHEN SHE WAS CALLING A SHELTER INDICATING THAT SHE WAS SCARED, SHE WAS GOING TO BE KILLED, THAT WOULD BE IMPROPER.
AND THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO; IS TO GET HER INTENT IN THROUGH THIS LETTER. AND THAT'S NOT PROPER UNLESS WE'RE GOING TO COMPLETELY OPEN UP HER INTENT AND HOW SHE FELT, AND THEN ALL OF THAT OTHER EVIDENCE COMES IN TO TEST THIS ALSO.
THE COURT: MR. UELMEN, ANY BRIEF RESPONSE?
MR. GORDON: I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: I'M SORRY.
GO AHEAD.
MR. UELMEN: I THINK YOUR HONOR IS CORRECT, THAT THE AUTHENTICATION ISSUE IS NOT REALLY A PROBLEM. IN FACT --
THE COURT: I DON'T CONSIDER IT TO BE A -- I MEAN BASED UPON -- IF YOU MADE AN OFFER OF PROOF THAT YOU COULD TIE THOSE THINGS UP, EVEN ON WHAT WE ARGUED ABOUT HERE --
MR. UELMEN: THE WITNESS THAT IS CURRENTLY ON THE STAND CAN AUTHENTICATE THE HANDWRITING AND THE TIME THAT THIS LETTER WAS WRITTEN.
YOU KNOW, IF MR. GORDON'S STATEMENT IS CORRECT, THAT THE ONLY WAY TO PROVE THE DEFENDANT'S STATE OF MIND IS THROUGH THE DEFENDANT'S OWN TESTIMONY, THEN ARE CAN ALL JUST FOLD UP OUR TENTS AND GO HOME BECAUSE ARE THEN HAVE NO EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE OF MR. SIMPSON'S STATE OF MIND.
WHAT THE PROSECUTION WANTS TO DO IS INFER THE STATE OF MIND FROM ALL OF THESE PRIOR INCIDENTS AND HAVE THE JURY BELIEVE THAT WITHOUT HAVING HEARD FROM MR. SIMPSON, THAT JUST BASED ON ALL OF THESE INCIDENTS THAT TOOK PLACE IN 1985 AND 1989 AND IN 1993, THAT THEY CAN THEN INFER THAT HE HAD A MOTIVE, THAT HE HAD INTENT, THAT HE HAD A PLAN.
SO THEY'RE SEEKING TO DRAW AN INFERENCE OF THE STATE OF MIND. OUR POSITION IS, ARE CAN REBUT THAT INFERENCE IN A NUMBER OF WAYS.
THE PROSECUTION IS NOT IN THE POSITION OF TELLING US THAT THE ONLY WAY -- THE ONLY EVIDENCE OF STATE OF MIND THAT YOU CAN OFFER IS TO CALL THE DEFENDANT TO THE WITNESS STAND. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WAYS ARE CAN PROVE STATE OF MIND, AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM.
ONE OF THEM IS TO SHOW THAT THE CONDUCT OF THE DEFENDANT WAS IN RESPONSE TO A SPECIFIC VERBAL ACT ON THE PART OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON. AND THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT WE'RE ATTEMPTING TO DO HERE.
WE'RE NOT OFFERING TO PROVE NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S STATE OF MIND AND HER SINCERITY OR HER HONESTY IN WRITING THIS LETTER AREN'T IN ISSUE. THE ISSUE IS SIMPLY, WHAT DOES THE LETTER SAY AND WHAT IMPACT DID THAT HAVE ON THE CONDUCT OF MR. SIMPSON.
NOW, OTHER WITNESSES HAVE ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THE CONDUCT OF MR. SIMPSON. WE KNOW FOR A FACT NOW FROM THE EVIDENCE THAT IS ALREADY IN THE RECORD THAT DESPITE ALL OF THESE PRIOR INCIDENTS IN MARCH OF 1993, A YEAR AFTER THEIR DIVORCE, MR. SIMPSON AND HIS WIFE STARTED SEEING EACH OTHER AGAIN.
THAT TESTIMONY CAME THIS MORNING FROM ARNELLE SIMPSON, AND THAT THAT CONDUCT CONTINUED FOR ALMOST -- WELL, FOR MORE THAN A YEAR. AND THE QUESTION THAT YOU'VE GOT TO ASK IS, WELL, WHY DID THAT HAPPEN? WHY DID THAT HAPPEN? AND HERE WE HAVE THE ANSWER. HERE WE HAVE THE EXPLANATION.
SO THE -- THE -- THE RELEVANCE AND PURPOSE OF THIS EVIDENCE IS TO EXPLAIN THE DEFENDANT'S SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT, AND THAT EXPLANATION DOES NOT HAVE TO COME FROM HIS OWN LIPS OR THROUGH HIS OWN TESTIMONY.
FINALLY, WE'RE TOLD, WELL, THIS IS INCONSISTENT. IF THIS IS WHAT WAS GOING ON, THEN WHY DID HE HAVE TO BREAK DOWN A DOOR AND -- AND ENGAGE IN THIS SHOUTING MATCH IN OCTOBER OF 1993?
THAT'S WHY THIS IS SO IMPORTANT, BECAUSE IT IS CONTEMPORANEOUS. IT DOES OCCUR AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME AS THE INCIDENT THEY PUT IN EVIDENCE, AND THEY WANT THE JURY TO INFER FROM THAT INCIDENT THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD A MOTIVE, HE HAD A PLAN AND HE HAD THE INTENT TO KILL HIS WIFE.
AND WE'RE SAYING THAT'S NOT AN APPROPRIATE INFERENCE AND WHEN YOU PUT THIS IN CONTEXT OF WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE TIME AND WHEN YOU PUT IT IN CONTEXT OF WHAT MR. SIMPSON WAS REACTING TO IN MARCH OF 1993.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, MR. UELMEN.
MR. GORDON: MAY I BE HEARD VERY SHORTLY, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: NO. I'VE HEARD ENOUGH.
MR. GORDON: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT.
WHAT THIS IS IS A FIVE-PAGE HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT, AND I THINK ARE SHOULD GIVE THIS A DEFENSE EXHIBIT NUMBER AT THIS POINT.
THE CLERK: 1226.
THE COURT: 1226?
MR. DOUGLAS, 1226 FOR THE RECORD SO WE KNOW WHAT THIS IS.
(DEFT'S 1226 FOR ID = FIVE-PAGE DOCUMENT)
THE COURT: I DON'T FIND ANY SPECIFIC STATUTORY OR CASE LAW AUTHORITY FOR THE ADMISSIBILITY OF THIS PARTICULAR ITEM. I AGREE, HOWEVER, THAT THE DEFENSE HAS THE RIGHT TO PRESENT EVIDENCE TO NEGATE A MOTIVE THAT IS OFFERED BY THE PROSECUTION.
I BELIEVE THAT THE DEFENSE CAN ESTABLISH AN APPROXIMATE DATE OF MARCH OF 1993 BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM PREVIOUS EVIDENCE THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND THE DEFENDANT ATTEMPTED A RECONCILIATION OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP SHORTLY AFTER THAT TIME, WHICH CONTINUED UNTIL APPROXIMATELY MAY OF 1994.
HOWEVER, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE CODE SECTION THAT ALLOWS THE USE OF THIS PARTICULAR ITEM FOR THAT PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THERE IS A LONG TIME LINE BETWEEN MARCH OF 1993 AND THE INCIDENT THAT OCCURRED IN OCTOBER OF 1993, A SEVEN-MONTH TIME PERIOD, AND HUMAN RELATIONS CAN TAKE MANY TURNS AND TWISTS OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME, AND I THINK A STATE OF MIND IN MARCH IS NOT NECESSARILY REFLECTIVE OF A STATE OF MIND IN OCTOBER.
ALSO, THE EVIDENCE OF THE ATTEMPTED RECONCILIATION IS IN THE RECORD THROUGH OTHER WITNESSES, AND I'LL SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION UNDER LACK OF STATUTORY GROUNDS, CASE LAW AUTHORITY AND UNDER 352 ISSUES SINCE IT'S ALREADY IN THE RECORD.
ALL RIGHT.
LET'S HAVE THE JURY.
AND IS ARNELLE SIMPSON HERE?
MR. COCHRAN: YES. SHE'S IN THE BACK.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS SIMPSON, WHY DON'T YOU WAIT FOR THE JURORS TO COME IN.
THE WITNESS: OKAY.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED.
ALL RIGHT.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON.
THE COURT: MY APOLOGIES TO YOU FOR OUR LATE START. ARE HAD A FEW LEGAL MATTERS TO TAKE CARE OF BEFORE ARE ASKED YOU TO COME IN.
MISS SIMPSON, WOULD YOU RESUME THE WITNESS STAND, PLEASE.
ARNELLE SIMPSON,
THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE LUNCH RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON IS ON THE WITNESS STAND AGAIN UNDERGOING DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN.
GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS SIMPSON.
THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON.
THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.
MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
MR. COCHRAN: GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS SIMPSON.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q CAN YOU MOVE THE MICROPHONE A LITTLE BIT CLOSER TO YOU?
I HAVE JUST A FEW MORE QUESTIONS OF YOU IF I MIGHT.
A UH-HUH.
Q DO YOU RECALL BACK ON OR ABOUT MAY 22ND, 1994, WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A PICNIC OR SOME KIND OF A PARTY INVOLVING CHILDREN AT YOUR HOME THERE ON ROCKINGHAM?
A YES, THERE WAS.
Q AND CAN YOU TELL US BRIEFLY WHAT THAT PICNIC OR PARTY WAS ABOUT?
A UMM, FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS, SUNSHINE PRESCHOOL, WHICH JUSTIN AND SIDNEY BOTH HAD ATTENDED, THEY HAVE AN ANNUAL PICNIC TO RAISE MONEY FOR THE SCHOOL, AND MY FATHER WOULD DONATE HIS HOUSE TO HAVE THE PICNIC THERE.
Q DO YOU RECALL THAT PICNIC AND PARTY TAKING PLACE IN 1994 ABOUT MAY 22ND?
A YES.
Q NOW, DID THEY -- DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT YOUR MINOR BROTHER AND SISTER, JUSTIN AND SIDNEY ATTENDED THAT PARTICULAR FUNCTION?
A YES, THEY WERE.
Q AND WERE YOU THERE ALSO?
A YES, I WAS.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON CAME TO THAT LOCATION?
A YES, SHE WAS.
Q NOW, WAS THIS AFTER THE TIME THAT YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER DECIDED TO GO THEIR SEPARATE WAYS? STRIKE THAT -- YOUR FATHER AND STEPMOTHER DECIDED TO GO THEIR SEPARATE WAYS?
A YES.
Q BUT SHE CAME ALSO TO THIS PARTICULAR PICNIC; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES, SHE DID.
Q DO YOU RECALL SEEING HER AT ANY PLACE INSIDE OF THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE ON THAT DAY?
A YES.
Q AND DESCRIBE WHAT YOU SAW AT THAT TIME.
A UMM, AT ONE POINT, ARE WERE ALL INSIDE THE HOUSE WATCHING T.V. THE PLAYOFFS WERE ON.
Q WHAT KIND OF PLAYOFFS?
A BASKETBALL.
Q ALL RIGHT.
A SOME OF THE OTHER PARENTS WERE INSIDE, MOSTLY THE MEN WERE, AND MY FATHER AND NICOLE WERE SITTING ON THE COUCH.
Q AND WHICH ROOM WAS THAT?
A IN THE T.V. ROOM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU OBSERVED THIS YOURSELF?
A YES.
Q DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING ELSE AS THEY SAT THERE ON THE COUCH?
A UMM, YEAH. SHE WAS SITTING ON HIS LAP.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THIS -- SO THIS WAS AFTER THEY HAD BROKEN UP, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
LATER ON, WERE YOU AWARE OF WHETHER OR NOT SHE WENT ANYPLACE ELSE INSIDE THAT HOUSE THAT DAY?
A YES. SHE HAD SAID SHE WASN'T FEELING WELL, AND SHE WENT UPSTAIRS AND LAID DOWN IN THE BED.
Q IN WHOSE BED?
A MY FATHER'S.
Q AND NOW, WITH REGARD TO THAT, WAS THIS WITHIN A WEEK OF THE TIME THAT YOU HAD SAID SHE HAD BEEN SICK WITH PNEUMONIA?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THIS WAS TOWARDS THE END OF THAT PERIOD OF TIME?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO SHE STILL WASN'T FEELING WELL ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY?
A YES.
Q AND WAS THIS -- MAY 22ND, WAS THAT ON A SUNDAY AS FAR AS YOU KNOW?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU TOLD US EARLIER THAT YOUR FATHER NO LONGER PLAYS TENNIS. DOES HE PLAY GOLF?
A YES, HE DOES.
Q DOES HE PLAY GOLF REGULARLY AS FAR AS YOU KNOW?
A YES.
Q DO YOU EVER AT ANY TIME SEE HIM AROUND THE HOUSE SWINGING GOLF CLUBS OR CHIPPING AT GOLF BALLS?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. LEADING.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: YES. ALL THE TIME.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT FOR US, WHAT YOU'VE SEEN?
A HE JUST WAS ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT GOLF. HE WAS KIND OF OBSESSED WITH IT. HE WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, BETTER HIS GAME AND HE WAS ALWAYS PLAYING AROUND WITH THE GOLF BALLS OR HIS -- I GUESS HIS SWING, TRYING TO PERFECT HIS SWING.
Q HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIM OUT IN THAT YARD HITTING ANY GOLF BALLS, CHIPPING THEM?
A YES. YES.
Q YOU DON'T PLAY GOLF, DO YOU?
A NO.
Q SO THE TERMINOLOGY IS A LITTLE BIT FOREIGN TO YOU; IS THAT RIGHT?
A UH-HUH. YES.
Q BUT YOU'VE SEEN YOUR FATHER DO THAT, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE EVENTS OF THE EVENING OF JUNE 13TH, WHEREIN YOU RETURNED HOME AFTER ABOUT 6:00 O'CLOCK OR SO IN THE EVENING AND YOU SAW THESE PEOPLE INSIDE THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE, DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A YES.
Q HAVE YOU TOLD US ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE PRESENT?
A NO.
Q WERE THERE OTHER FRIENDS WHO WERE ALSO PRESENT?
A YES. THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE COMING AND GOING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
A DURING THAT TIME.
Q I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T MEAN TO CUT YOU OFF.
A DURING THAT TIME, THERE WAS JUST A LOT OF COMMOTION, PEOPLE COMING AND GOING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE, FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS, COMING IN AND OUT?
A YES.
Q NOT EVERYBODY CAME AT THE SAME TIME; IS THAT RIGHT?
A NO.
Q AND THEN I PRESUME YOU WERE IN ROOMS, OTHER ROOMS THROUGHOUT THE HOUSE ON OCCASION ALSO?
A YES, I WAS.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. LEADING.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: ANYONE ELSE THAT YOU RECALL WAS THERE THAT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD US ABOUT THUS FAR?
A CATHY RANDA, NEAL SLOAN AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE WERE COMING AND GOING. THERE WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HAVE YOU BEEN NERVOUS THIS MORNING DURING YOUR TESTIMONY?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q HAVE YOU TOLD US THE TRUTH?
A YES, I HAVE.
MR. COCHRAN: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER AT THIS POINT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. COCHRAN.
MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
Q GOOD AFTERNOON.
A HI.
Q WE HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE, HAVEN'T WE?
A YES, WE HAVE.
Q AT THE PRELIM?
A UH-HUH.
Q I'LL TRY TO MAKE IT AS QUICK AS I CAN FOR YOU.
A OKAY.
Q LET ME JUST ASK YOU, SINCE YOU GUYS LEFT OFF AT JUNE 13TH, WHEN PEOPLE WERE COMING AND GOING AT ROCKINGHAM, DO YOU RECALL SEEING SKIP TAFT THERE?
A YES.
Q YES.
AND SKIP TAFT, THAT'S YOUR FATHER'S LAWYER, CORRECT?
A YES, HE IS.
Q AND DID YOU ALSO SEE HOWARD WEITZMAN THERE?
A HOWARD WEITZMAN, I DON'T --
Q DON'T RECALL HIM?
A I'M SOMETIMES BAD WITH NAMES. I'M BETTER WITH FACES.
Q OKAY.
IF I DESCRIBE HIM, WILL THAT HELP?
A YES.
Q I HOPE HE'S NOT WATCHING THIS.
OKAY.
HE'S ABOUT -- OH, ABOUT THIS TALL (INDICATING) AND HE'S KIND OF RUDDY COMPLECTED.
MR. COCHRAN: ABOUT THIS TALL? CAN WE HAVE A -- ABOUT THIS TALL?
MS. CLARK: OH, I'M SORRY. I'M GESTURING.
Q BY MS. CLARK: I MEAN -- WAIT. NO. WITH HEELS ON, I'M FIVE EIGHT.
HE'S ABOUT MY HEIGHT.
A UH-HUH.
Q 5/8, 5/9 AND RUDDY COMPLECTED.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THIS DESCRIPTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: BALDING.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: I'M JUST --
KIND OF BALDING, RUDDY COMPLECTED. HE'S A LAWYER ALSO.
A I DON'T RECALL.
Q OKAY.
THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE THAT DAY?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU VISITED NICOLE AT BUNDY ON OCCASION.
A YES.
Q IS THAT CORRECT?
AND WAS THAT ALONE OR WAS THAT WITH YOUR FATHER?
A SOMETIMES WITH MY DAD, SOMETIMES ALONE, SOMETIMES WITH A FRIEND.
Q OKAY.
AND WHEN YOU DID THAT, WHEN YOU WENT TO VISIT HER, WHERE WOULD YOU PARK?
A I'D USUALLY PARK ON BUNDY.
Q AND WHERE ON BUNDY DID YOU PARK?
A RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE.
Q YOU COULD LEAVE YOUR CAR RIGHT THERE IN FRONT?
A YES. I BELIEVE SO. I WOULD.
Q OKAY.
WHAT TIME OF DAY WAS IT THAT YOU'D USUALLY PARKED THERE?
A UMM, SOMETIMES AT NIGHT, SOMETIMES IN THE MORNING, SOMETIMES DURING THE DAY.
Q SO YOU CAME ALL DIFFERENT TIMES?
A YES.
Q AS OF LATE '93, NICOLE HAD A BLACK JEEP CHEROKEE, DIDN'T SHE?
A YES, SHE DID.
Q AND ALSO A WHITE FERRARI?
A YES.
Q AND YOU WOULD SEE THOSE PARKED AT BUNDY WHENEVER YOU WENT BY THERE, WENT TO VISIT?
A NOT FROM THE FRONT.
Q FROM THE BACK?
A YEAH. YES.
Q AND THERE WOULD BE OCCASIONS SOMETIMES WHEN YOU WOULD PULL UP BEHIND THE BACK ALSO MAYBE TO COME AND GET THE KIDS, PULL INTO THAT ALLEY BEHIND HER CONDO?
A I USUALLY ALWAYS PULLED IN THE FRONT.
Q OKAY.
WAS THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE COMING IN TO VISIT HER, COME INSIDE THE CONDO?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
WAS THERE EVER AN OCCASION WHEN YOU CAME BY JUST TO PICK UP THE KIDS OR JUST TO DROP THEM OFF WHEN YOU'D JUST PULL IN BEHIND IN THAT ALLEY?
A I NEVER USED THE ALLEY.
Q YOU DIDN'T?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
Q NOW, YOU STATED THAT YOU KNEW THAT MR. SIMPSON TRAVELED ON THE WEEK OF JUNE THE 6TH OF 1994?
A YES.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHERE HE -- WHERE HE TRAVELED TO?
A I CAN'T TELL YOU SPECIFICALLY. I KNEW HE WAS OUT OF TOWN, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE EXACTLY HE WAS GOING.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT DAYS HE WAS OUT OF TOWN?
A I BELIEVE THAT HE HAD LEFT ON A SUNDAY AND RETURNED -- OR LEFT ON A -- ACTUALLY A MONDAY OR TUESDAY AND RETURNED ON THAT FRIDAY.
Q OKAY.
AND DO YOU KNOW IF HE WENT OUT OF TOWN AGAIN AFTER THAT FRIDAY LIKE ON FRIDAY NIGHT?
A NO.
Q AND YOU'RE NOT SURE; IT MIGHT BE MONDAY OR TUESDAY THAT HE LEFT?
A YEAH.
Q NOW, WOULD IT BE FAIR TO STATE THAT YOU'RE NOT EXACTLY SURE OF WHAT DAY MR. SIMPSON AND NICOLE BROWN BROKE UP FOR THE LAST TIME?
A YES.
Q NOW, SHE WAS SICK FOR A PERIOD OF TIME IN MAY; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND THAT WAS FOR MORE THAN A WEEK OR SO. THAT WAS KIND OF AN EXTENDED ILLNESS?
A YES.
Q WOULD YOU SAY THAT WAS FOR LIKE TWO OR THREE WEEKS THAT SHE WAS PRETTY SICK WITH PNEUMONIA?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
YOU KNOW HER BIRTHDAY WAS ON MAY 19TH, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND SHE WAS STILL SICK WHEN SHE -- WHEN THAT WAS HER -- WHEN HER BIRTHDAY CAME AROUND; IS THAT RIGHT? SHE WAS SICK WITH PNEUMONIA FOR HER BIRTHDAY?
A I BELIEVE SO, YES.
Q AND DURING THE TIME SHE WAS SICK, YOUR FATHER VISITED HER ONCE TO BRING HER SOME SOUP; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q NOW, YOU RECALL THE PRESENT THAT HE GAVE HER FOR HER BIRTHDAY, A REAL EXPENSIVE BRACELET?
A NO, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
Q YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT BRACELET?
A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL THAT SHE GAVE IT BACK TO HIM ON HER --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. ASSUMES SHE KNOWS ABOUT IT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. ASSUMES FACTS THAT AREN'T IN EVIDENCE. FOUNDATION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
YOU DON'T KNOW THEN WHAT YOUR FATHER GAVE HER IF ANYTHING FOR HER BIRTHDAY?
A NO.
Q OR WHETHER SHE GAVE IT BACK TO HIM AFTER THAT POINT WHEN THEY BROKE UP?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU KNOW WHETHER MR. SIMPSON GAVE A GIFT TO PAULA SHORTLY AFTER NICOLE'S BIRTHDAY?
A YES.
Q WAS THAT A BRACELET?
A YES.
Q A REAL EXPENSIVE ONE, DIAMONDS AND STUFF ON IT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND DO YOU KNOW WHO HAD THAT BRACELET IF ANYONE BEFORE HER?
A NO.
Q AND WAS IT ABOUT AROUND MEMORIAL DAY, AROUND THERE WHEN HE GAVE IT TO PAULA?
A I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY.
Q DOES THAT SOUND ABOUT RIGHT? YOU'RE KIND OF --
A I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY. SO, YOU KNOW --
Q OKAY.
WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
DO YOU KNOW IF YOUR FATHER WENT TO LA QUINTA WITH PAULA ON MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND?
A I KNEW MY DAD WAS OUT OF TOWN, BUT I WASN'T SURE WHERE HE WENT.
Q OKAY.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHO HE WENT WITH; IS THAT RIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY -- I DON'T RECALL.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
A I DON'T --
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DURING THE TIME OF '93 TO '94 WHEN YOU INDICATED THAT THEY WERE ATTEMPTING TO RECONCILE, MR. SIMPSON AND NICOLE BROWN, CAN YOU TELL US TILL WHEN -- FROM APPROXIMATELY WHEN -- WAS IT MARCH OR APRIL OF '93 THAT IT BEGAN, THAT RECONCILIATION PERIOD?
A I BELIEVE IT BEGAN THE END OF APRIL.
Q OKAY.
AND FROM THAT TIME UNTIL SOME POINT IN MAY, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT SURE ABOUT THE TIME, BUT FROM THAT POINT UNTIL SOME TIME IN MAY OF '94, IS IT YOUR BELIEF THAT THEY WERE TOGETHER AND WERE NOT DATING OTHER PEOPLE?
A UMM, I KNOW THEY STARTED TO DATE EACH OTHER EXCLUSIVELY MAY OF '93 TO MAY OF '94.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WERE YOU AWARE THAT HE HAD TRAVELED TO HAWAII WITH PAULA BARBIERI BETWEEN THOSE TWO TIMES, MAY OF '93 TO MAY OF '94?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
WERE YOU PRESENT IN COURT WHEN KATO KAELIN TESTIFIED?
A NO.
Q WERE YOU WATCHING TELEVISION OR AWARE OF ANY OF HIS TESTIMONY?
A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL YOUR FATHER TAKING A TRIP TO HAWAII BETWEEN MAY OF '93 AND MAY OF '94?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU DID NOT -- YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU DID NOT SEE PAULA BARBIERI AT THE LOCATION AT ROCKINGHAM. WERE YOU AT ROCKINGHAM EVERY DAY BETWEEN MAY OF '93 AND MAY OF '94?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU DIDN'T SEE WHO YOUR FATHER TRAVELED WITH WHEN HE TRAVELED, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: I'M GOING TO OBJECT. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE, SPECULATIVE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: SO IF HE VISITED WITH SOMEBODY OUT OF TOWN, YOU WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, WOULD YOU?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU SAID THAT YOU STAYED AT THE NEW YORK CONDO QUITE A BIT?
A YES.
Q IS THAT A CONDO OR AN APARTMENT? I DON'T WANT TO MISSTATE IT.
A APARTMENT. YEAH. APARTMENT.
Q AND WAS THAT APARTMENT NEAR A DEPARTMENT STORE NAMED BLOOMINGDALES?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND DID YOU SHOP THERE OFTEN?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOUR FATHER ALSO SHOP THERE OFTEN?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER ATTEND ANY OF THE FOOTBALL GAMES WHERE HE WAS A COMMENTATOR THERE?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT, AT ROCKINGHAM, HOW MANY KEYS WERE THERE FOR THE DOORS TO THE MAIN HOUSE?
A ONE.
Q OKAY.
AND SO THAT ONE KEY WOULD OPEN THE FRONT AND THE REAR DOORS?
A THE FRONT DOOR. THERE AREN'T ANY LOCKS ON THE REAR DOORS. WELL, ON SOME OF THEM THERE ARE ACTUALLY.
Q AND IS IT THE SAME KEY FOR THOSE LOCKS?
A UMM, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T BELIEVE SO.
Q YOU DON'T THINK SO?
A NO. I DIDN'T HAVE THE KEY. THE LOCKS ARE VERY HIGH UP ON THE DOORS IN THE REAR.
Q HMM. LET ME --
MS. CLARK: CAN I HAVE A MOMENT?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FRENCH DOORS AT THE REAR OF THE HOUSE WHERE IT'S VERY HIGH UP?
A YES.
Q IS THERE ANOTHER DOOR THAT LEADS INTO THE BILLIARD ROOM THAT IS JUST A REGULAR DOOR?
A YES.
Q THAT YOU CAN GO IN THROUGH.
OKAY.
AND YOU HAD THE KEY TO THAT DOOR?
A THERE IS NO -- IT'S ONLY LOCKED FROM THE INSIDE OF THE HOUSE. THERE'S NO LOCK FROM THE OUTSIDE.
Q YOU CAN'T OPEN IT FROM THE OUTSIDE?
A NO, YOU CAN NOT.
Q IS THERE ANOTHER DOOR THAT LEADS INTO THE BILLIARD ROOM OR ACTUALLY -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S AN AREA YOU WALK INTO AND THE BILLIARD ROOM IS TO YOUR LEFT?
A UH-HUH.
Q OKAY.
THAT DOOR. CAN YOU OPEN THAT ONE FROM THE OUTSIDE?
A IT'S IN THE BILLIARD ROOM YOU'RE SPEAKING OF?
Q I DON'T THINK IT'S IN THE BILLIARD ROOM. IT'S -- THE BILLIARD ROOM AS YOU WALK IN WOULD BE TO YOUR LEFT.
A SO TOWARDS THE T.V.'S?
Q TOWARD THE T.V. ROOM, CORRECT.
A THERE'S A LITTLE -- THOSE DOORS ARE NAILED SHUT.
Q OKAY.
WHAT MEANS DO YOU GAIN ENTRY FROM THE REAR OF THE HOUSE WHEN YOU TRY -- IF YOU WERE TRYING TO GO INTO THE REAR OF THE HOUSE, WHAT DOOR WOULD YOU TAKE?
A YOU CAN'T. YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO AROUND TO THE FRONT.
Q THERE'S NO DOOR THAT ADMITS YOU IN THROUGH THE REAR OF THE HOUSE?
A NO, UNLESS -- UNLESS YOU GO THROUGH THE GUEST HOUSE.
Q WHAT ABOUT THROUGH --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO GET OUT AN EXHIBIT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: IN THE MEANTIME, LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION SO ARE DON'T WASTE TIME.
YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE ALARM SYSTEM IN THE HOUSE, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THERE'S AN ALARM -- THE -- THERE'S AN ALARM SENSOR FOR THE REAR DOOR, ISN'T THERE?
A YES.
Q AND THAT ALARM SENSOR HAS A 40-SECOND DELAY, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q SO IF YOU ENTER THROUGH THE REAR DOOR, YOU HAVE 40 SECONDS TO GET TO A KEYPAD TO DISARM THE ALARM, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND THE MAID'S ROOM HAS A KEYPAD IN IT FOR THE ALARM, RIGHT?
A NOT IN THE MAID'S ROOM, BUT --
Q JUST OUTSIDE IT?
A YEAH.
Q RIGHT. I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.
OKAY.
AND THAT WOULD BE KIND OF LIKE NEXT TO THE LAUNDRY ROOM?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
IS THERE A COMMON WALL BETWEEN THE LAUNDRY ROOM AND THE MAID'S ROOM?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT BEFORE YOU ENTERED --
LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
BEFORE YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE WITH THE POLICE OFFICERS WHILE YOU WERE BETWEEN THE POINT WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR ROOM AND GOT INTO THE HOUSE, DO YOU RECALL HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH THEM ABOUT WHETHER THERE WAS A MAID ON THE PREMISES?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL THEM ASKING YOU ABOUT WHETHER THERE WAS A MAID PRESENT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU TOLD THEM GIGI WAS USUALLY THERE?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND DO YOU RECALL THEM ASKING WHERE THE MAID'S ROOM WAS?
A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL THEM ASKING YOU TO SHOW YOU THE MAID'S ROOM?
A NO.
Q FOR YOU TO SHOW THEM THE MAID'S ROOM?
A NO.
Q YOU DON'T RECALL DOING ANY OF THAT?
A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL EITHER OF THEM GOING INTO THE MAID'S ROOM AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE?
A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL ANY OF THEM STANDING NEAR THAT AREA IN THE MAID'S ROOM?
A YES, BECAUSE THE PHONE IS RIGHT THERE THAT WE HAD USED IN THE KITCHEN.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL GOING PAST THE MAID'S ROOM WHEN YOU WENT AND ENTERED THE HOUSE?
A NO.
Q NOW, AS OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, THE MAID'S IN RESIDENCE NAME WAS GIGI?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND SHE WORKED MONDAY TO FRIDAY; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q DID SHE USUALLY LEAVE ON FRIDAY NIGHT OR SATURDAY MORNING?
A FRIDAY NIGHT.
Q SHE DIDN'T COME BACK TO THE HOUSE ON SUNDAY NIGHT, JUNE THE 12TH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, ARE YOU AWARE THAT MR. SIMPSON TOLD HER NOT TO COME BACK ON THAT SUNDAY NIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. HEARSAY, MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH GIGI ABOUT ANY INSTRUCTION SHE MAY HAVE HAD ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TO COME BACK TO THE HOUSE ON SUNDAY NIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? I OBJECT TO THIS.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, THEN IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT IF YOU WERE TO BE INSIDE THE HOUSE AND YOU WANTED TO GO OUT TO THE POOL AREA, YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO ALL THE WAY -- YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO OUT THE FRONT ENTRANCE AND GO ALL THE WAY THROUGH THAT AREA MARKED AS "LAWN" AT THE BACK TO GET TO THE POOL?
A CAN YOU REPEAT THAT FOR ME?
Q SURE.
IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT IF YOU WERE INSIDE THE HOUSE AND YOU WANTED TO GO AND USE THE POOL AREA, YOU'D HAVE TO GO OUT THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR AND DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AND UP THROUGH THAT AREA MARKED "LAWN" --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: -- TO THE POOL?
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: IF I WERE TO GO OUT TO THE POOL FROM OUT -- FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE?
Q BY MS. CLARK: RIGHT.
A I COULD LEAVE THROUGH THE DOOR, THROUGH THE BACK -- WELL, THE ONE BACK DOOR.
Q AND WHICH DOOR WOULD THAT BE?
A UMM, THE DOOR WHICH IS CLOSEST TO THE POOL TABLE AREA. SHOULD I SHOW YOU?
Q SURE. THANKS.
A RIGHT HERE. YEAH (INDICATING).
THE COURT: INDICATING THE SOUTHERN AND EASTERN MOST PORTION OF THE HOUSE BEFORE YOU GET TO THE POOLROOM.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: SEE THAT, MR. COCHRAN?
MR. COCHRAN: I GOT THERE JUST IN TIME. I THINK THE SOUTHERN MOST PORTION DID YOU SAY?
THE COURT: THE SOUTHERN MOST PORTION BEFORE YOU GET TO THE POOLROOM.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: THE DOOR THAT'S THERE.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
NOW, THE TIME THAT YOU HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH THE OFFICERS ABOUT THE MAID AND WHO WAS ON THE PREMISES, YOU WERE OUTSIDE THE HOUSE STILL AT THAT POINT, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT ON JUNE THE 12TH, THAT MORNING, YOU LEFT AT APPROXIMATELY 10:00, 10:00 O'CLOCK THAT MORNING?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND AT THE TIME THAT YOU LEFT, DID YOU GO INTO THE MAIN HOUSE?
A NO.
Q AND YOU CAME BACK AT APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME AFTER CHURCH?
A 11:00, 11:10.
Q OKAY.
AND THEN YOU LEFT AGAIN AT WHAT TIME?
A UMM, AROUND 12:30.
Q AT ANY POINT AFTER YOU -- AT ANY POINT IN THERE WHEN YOU CAME BACK FROM CHURCH, BETWEEN THAT TIME AND WHEN YOU LEFT AGAIN AT 12:30, DID YOU GO INTO THE MAIN HOUSE?
A NO.
Q DID YOU SEE KATO KAELIN AT ANY POINT IN THERE?
A NO.
Q DID YOU SEE MR. SIMPSON AT ANY POINT?
A NO.
Q AFTER YOU LEFT AT 12:30 P.M., YOU CAME BACK AGAIN AT ABOUT 1:00 A.M.?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
IS THAT AN APPROXIMATION, 1:00 TO 1:30, SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND AT THAT POINT, DID YOU GO STRAIGHT BACK TO YOUR -- YOUR ROOM?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND WHEN YOU WENT TO YOUR ROOM, YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE WALKED BY KATO KAELIN'S ROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, YOU'VE TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT YOU KNEW THAT HE WAS HOME THAT NIGHT, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND HOW DID YOU KNOW THAT? DID YOU SEE LIGHTS ON IN HIS ROOM OR --
A HIS CAR.
Q HIS CAR WAS THERE?
A YES.
Q SO THE NEXT TIME --
ALL RIGHT.
SO DURING THE DAY OF JUNE THE 12TH, THE ENTIRE DAY, THERE WAS NO POINT AT WHICH YOU WENT INTO THE MAIN HOUSE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT ABOUT JUNE THE 11TH? WAS THERE ANY TIME THAT YOU WENT INTO THE MAIN HOUSE ON THAT DAY?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND ON THAT DAY, WHAT WAS -- WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU WENT INTO THE MAIN HOUSE?
A IN THE EVENING.
Q WAS THAT LATE AT NIGHT?
A AROUND -- YEAH. AROUND 9:00 OR 10:00.
Q WAS ANYBODY IN THE HOUSE AT THAT TIME?
A NO.
Q NOW, IF BETWEEN -- WHAT WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN THE MAIN HOUSE BETWEEN JUNE 11TH AND JUNE 13TH?
A BETWEEN JUNE 11TH AND JUNE 13TH?
Q YEAH. I'LL BE MORE SPECIFIC. I'M SORRY.
JUNE 11TH, YOU WERE IN THE HOUSE BETWEEN 9:00 AND 10:00 P.M.; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND THEN YOU DID NOT REALLY GO BACK INTO THE MAIN HOUSE AFTER THAT POINT UNTIL AROUND 5:30 A.M. ON JUNE THE 13TH. IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
SO IF GIGI HAD RETURNED BETWEEN THOSE TWO TIMES, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE KNOWN IT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION. OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: WOULD YOU HAVE ANY WAY OF KNOWING IF GIGI CAME BACK BETWEEN 9:00 OR 10:00 AT NIGHT ON JUNE THE 11TH AND 5:30 A.M. JUNE THE 13TH?
A UMM, THAT'S A TWO-PART QUESTION. CAN I ANSWER IT?
Q SURE.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT IF IT'S COMPOUND.
THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MS. CLARK: I THINK SHE WAS OBJECTING, COMPOUND.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
WHAT -- DO YOU HAVE ANY WAY OF KNOWING WHEN GIGI IS ON OR OFF THE PREMISES OTHER THAN SEEING HER THERE?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT IS THAT?
A HER CAR.
Q OKAY.
DOES SHE ALWAYS BRING HER CAR TO THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q DOES SHE ALWAYS PARK IT IN THE SAME PLACE?
A YES.
Q WHERE IS THAT?
A IN THE DRIVEWAY RIGHT KIND OF WHERE THE GARAGE IS, RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE GARAGE.
Q SO SHE PARKS IT INSIDE THE GATE WHEN SHE'S THERE?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, ON THE NIGHT OF -- LET ME COME BACK TO THAT IN A MINUTE.
NOW, WHEN THE OFFICERS ASKED YOU -- FIRST CONTACTED YOU AT AROUND 5:30 A.M. AT YOUR ROOM, THEY INDICATED TO YOU THAT THEY HAD BEEN RINGING AND TRYING TO REACH SOMEONE IN THE HOUSE, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q YOU HADN'T HEARD ANYTHING, HAD YOU?
A NO.
Q HAD YOU HEARD CHACHI BARKING THAT NIGHT?
A NO.
Q YOU HADN'T HEARD ANYTHING UNUSUAL AT ALL?
A NO.
Q AND WHEN THE OFFICERS ASKED YOU WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS, YOU DIDN'T -- YOU TOLD -- YOU DIDN'T TELL THEM, DID YOU?
A NO.
Q BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW, DID YOU?
A NO.
Q AND THE OFFICERS, YOU NEVER TOLD THEM WHAT TIME MR. SIMPSON LEFT TO GO OUT OF TOWN, DID YOU?
A NO.
Q AND THAT'S BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW, DID YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND THAT'S BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW, DID YOU?
A NO, I DIDN'T KNOW.
Q NOW, AT THE POINT IN TIME THAT THEY WOKE YOU UP ABOUT 5:30, YOU HAD HAD WHAT; ABOUT FOUR HOURS SLEEP?
A YES.
Q WERE YOU PRETTY TIRED?
A YES.
Q AND A LITTLE BIT IN SHOCK?
A YES. VERY MUCH SO.
Q AND PRETTY FRAZZLED?
A YES.
Q IT WAS PRETTY UPSETTING, ALL OF THE EVENTS, WEREN'T THEY?
A YEAH.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU BELIEVE AT THAT TIME THAT YOU WERE FIRST CONTACTED -- THERE WERE TWO OFFICERS AT YOUR DOOR?
A YES.
Q COULD IT HAVE BEEN THREE AND YOU DIDN'T NOTICE ONE STANDING BACK BEHIND?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND THEN AFTER YOU SPOKE TO THEM BRIEFLY, YOU CAME OUTSIDE WITH THEM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, DURING THAT ENTIRE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH THEM, THE -- DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WAS NOT PRESENT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A NO.
Q AND WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR ROOM WITH THEM, HE WAS IN THE ROOM OR HE WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF KATO'S ROOM TALKING TO HIM?
A YES.
Q SO AT NO POINT DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ABOUT HOW TO REACH YOUR FATHER OR WHERE HE WAS; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND AFTER YOU SPOKE -- DURING THE -- WELL, AFTER YOU SPOKE TO CATHY RANDA AND FOUND OUT WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS, YOU DID NOT SPEAK TO DETECTIVE FUHRMAN; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE HAVING THAT CONVERSATION, THAT TELEPHONE CALL WITH HER, CATHY RANDA, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WAS NOT AROUND; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, THE DETECTIVES THAT WERE WITH YOU, VANNATTER AND LANGE AND PHILLIPS, DO YOU RECALL ONE OF THEM ASKING YOU WHETHER THE BRONCO PARKED OUT IN FRONT WAS -- BELONGED TO MR. SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU TOLD THEM THAT IT DID; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU INDICATED TO US THAT YOU CALLED CATHY RANDA AND THEN YOU GAVE THE PHONE TO DETECTIVE LANGE, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q NOW, ARE YOU SURE IT WAS DETECTIVE LANGE? COULD THAT HAVE BEEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS? IS THAT -- ARE YOU REAL FIRM ABOUT THAT?
A IT COULD HAVE BEEN PHILLIPS.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU ALSO TESTIFIED THAT THERE WAS NO PHONE CALL MADE FROM THAT PHONE IN THE KITCHEN AFTER THE CONVERSATION WITH CATHY RANDA; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THAT. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: LET ME BE MORE CLEAR.
AFTER YOU MADE THE PHONE CALL TO CATHY RANDA, THE DETECTIVE, WHETHER IT WAS LANGE OR PHILLIPS, SPOKE TO CATHY RANDA; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND THEN AFTER THAT POINT, IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT NO PHONE CALL WAS PLACED BY EITHER YOURSELF OR THE DETECTIVES BEFORE MR. SIMPSON CALLED IN?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL THAT A PHONE CALL -- THAT IMMEDIATELY AFTER SPEAKING TO CATHY RANDA, ONE OF THE DETECTIVES PLACED A PHONE CALL ON THAT TELEPHONE?
A I DON'T RECALL THAT.
Q OKAY.
IS IT YOUR RECOLLECTION THAT BEFORE ANYONE PLACED A PHONE CALL TO MR. SIMPSON IN CHICAGO, HE CALLED TO THE HOUSE?
A CAN YOU REPEAT THAT FOR ME?
Q SURE. SURE.
THE TIME FRAME IS, THE PHONE CALL TO CATHY RANDA.
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU WERE IN THE KITCHEN WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND DETECTIVE LANGE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS; IS THAT RIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. SHE DOESN'T SAY VANNATTER WAS IN THERE.
MS. CLARK: WELL, IF THAT'S NOT RIGHT, SHE CAN TELL ME.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND AT THAT TIME, AFTER THE PHONE CALL WAS PLACED TO CATHY RANDA, THAT'S WHEN YOU ALL LEARNED EXACTLY WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AT THAT POINT THOUGH, JUST BEFORE THE PHONE CALL WAS PLACED, NO ONE THERE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT TIME HE HAD LEFT OR WHERE HE WAS. IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. IT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
YOU DID NOT KNOW THAT, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, NEITHER DID THE DETECTIVES YET?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AT THAT POINT, THEY WERE ASKING YOU WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS AND WHEN HE HAD LEFT OR DID THEY EVER ASK YOU WHEN HE HAD LEFT?
A JUST THAT THEY DID ASK ME WHEN HE HAD LEFT. I SAID THAT HE WAS OUT OF TOWN, BUT I DID NOT KNOW WHERE HE WAS, BUT I COULD CALL SOMEBODY THAT WOULD KNOW, AND THAT'S WHEN I PLACED THE CALL TO CATHY RANDA.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU DID NOT TELL THEM WHEN HE HAD LEFT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT?
A NO.
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND SO WHAT -- THEN THE PHONE CALL WAS PLACED TO CATHY RANDA, AND AT THAT POINT, YOU FOUND OUT WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS EXACTLY, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND THEN ONE OF THE DETECTIVES, COULD BE PHILLIPS, COULD BE LANGE, SPOKE TO CATHY RANDA; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND AFTER THAT POINT -- AFTER THAT POINT, WAS A PHONE CALL RECEIVED INTO THE HOUSE? DID SOMEONE CALL THE HOUSE AND WAS THAT PERSON MR. SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SO DID ANY OF THE OFFICERS PLACE A CALL BEFORE THAT PHONE CALL WAS RECEIVED FROM MR. SIMPSON?
A I DON'T RECALL THAT.
Q OKAY.
OKAY. IS IT THAT YOU DON'T RECALL THAT OR YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT DID NOT HAPPEN?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT. SHE SAYS SHE DIDN'T RECALL.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
GIVE US YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION. IS IT YOUR -- IN YOUR MEMORY RIGHT NOW, IS YOUR STATE OF MIND THAT YOU RECEIVED A CALL FROM MR. SIMPSON BEFORE A CALL WAS PLACED BY ONE OF THE DETECTIVES TO HIM?
A YES.
Q THAT'S WHAT --
A YES.
Q OKAY.
MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH YOUR FATHER'S PHONE NUMBER, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND IT'S -- THAT'S NO LONGER THE NUMBER, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND YOUR PHONE NUMBER ALSO FROM YOUR ROOM, THAT'S NO LONGER YOUR PHONE NUMBER EITHER, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q SO IT'S SAFE TO MENTION THESE NUMBERS NOW, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
ARE YOU ALSO FAMILIAR WITH KATO KAELIN'S PHONE NUMBER, WHAT IT USED TO BE BACK THERE AT ROCKINGHAM?
A NO.
Q BUT HE HAD HIS OWN PHONE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND IT RANG IN HIS ROOM; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND THERE WAS A SEPARATE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE MAIN HOUSE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, I BELIEVE IT WAS YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THERE WERE -- THAT YOU RECEIVED -- YOU SPOKE TO MR. SIMPSON THREE TIMES ON JUNE THE 13TH; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND ONCE WAS WHEN YOU WERE IN THE KITCHEN, HE CALLED IN?
A YES.
Q AND ONCE WAS WHEN HE CALLED IN AND YOU WERE ON YOUR WAY TO YOUR ROOM AND IT WAS IN THE T.V. ROOM?
A YES.
Q AND ONCE WAS IN YOUR ROOM?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE PHRASEOLOGY "CALLED," THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A PHONE RECORD FROM AIR TOUCH I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW THE WITNESS. I WOULD ASK THAT IT BE MARKED -- ACTUALLY I THINK IT IS ALREADY -- I'M NOT SURE IF IT IS. I'LL MARK IT AGAIN.
PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, 490?
THE COURT: 489.
MS. CLARK: 489.
(PEO'S 489 FOR ID = PHONE RECORD)
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE COURT: MISS CLARK, 3:00 O'CLOCK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, I BELIEVE IT WAS YOUR TESTIMONY EARLIER THAT -- THAT ALL OF THOSE CALLS WERE MADE BY MR. SIMPSON FROM CHICAGO, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 489.
MS. CLARK: TRY AND MAKE IT BIGGER. OKAY. SLIDE OVER THERE. THERE ARE GO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU SEE THESE ARE -- JUST FOR YOUR INFORMATION, MISS SIMPSON, THESE ARE -- THIS IS THE PHONE CALLS PLACED FROM YOUR FATHER'S CELL PHONE FROM CHICAGO ON THE DATE OF JUNE THE 13TH.
OKAY?
A UH-HUH.
Q DO YOU SEE THE PHONE NUMBERS THERE LISTED?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE MAN BY THE NAME OF SKIP TAFT, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q YOU INDICATED THAT WAS YOUR FATHER'S LAWYER?
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECOGNIZE HIS PHONE NUMBERS ON THIS BILL?
A UMM --
Q YOU CAN DIRECT THE ARROW. SEE THAT RED ARROW UP THERE?
A NO.
Q YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE IT?
A NO.
Q YOU DON'T KNOW THEM OFFHAND?
A IS IT HIS HOME OR OFFICE NUMBER?
Q EITHER ONE.
A I ONLY KNOW THE OFFICE NUMBER.
Q OKAY.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE ONE OF THESE NUMBERS AS HIS OFFICE NUMBER?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
DO YOU HAVE ANY RECORD WITH YOU, A PHONE BOOK LIKE THE ONE YOU HAD ON JUNE THE 13TH THAT WOULD REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHAT HIS PHONE NUMBERS ARE?
A I KNOW THE OFFICE NUMBER BY HEART.
Q OKAY.
AND DO YOU SEE HIS OFFICE NUMBER HERE?
A NO.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY ARE APPROACH JUST ONE MOMENT? COULD YOU TAKE THAT DOWN?
MS. CLARK: ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THE --
MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU TAKE THOSE DOWN?
MS. CLARK: LET ME JUST COVER UP ALL OF THEM. HOLD ON, JOHNNIE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MS. CLARK: TRY IT ONE MORE TIME.
Q BY MS. CLARK: AND THEN I'LL JUST SHOW IT TO YOU.
OKAY.
THERE'S ONLY ONE NUMBER SHOWING NOW.
THE NUMBER IN THE MAIN HOUSE, THE PREFIX, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER IT WAS 476?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND SINCE THAT'S NO LONGER THE NUMBER, THE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE MAIN HOUSE, WAS THAT 476-4619?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: COUNSEL, 4619?
MS. CLARK: 4619. YEAH.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
NOW, THE NUMBER THAT WE'RE SHOWING HERE ON THIS SCREEN ON PEOPLE'S 489, 476-1706, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AS BEING KATO KAELIN'S PHONE NUMBER IN HIS ROOM?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT THERE WAS A CALL RECEIVED IN YOUR HOUSE --
LET ME JUST SHOW THIS TO YOU.
TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE ANY OF THE PHONE NUMBERS ON THIS BILL ON PEOPLE'S 489 AS A PHONE NUMBER THAT WOULD GO INTO THE MAIN HOUSE FOR MR. SIMPSON AS OF JUNE THE 13TH.
A INTO --
Q JUNE THE 13TH, AS OF JUNE THE 13TH.
A NO.
Q OKAY.
ALL RIGHT.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU NOW THE PHONE CALLS REGISTERED FOR HIS HOTEL ROOM IN CHICAGO.
A OKAY.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THESE?
MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO SHOW -- MAKE SURE -- HE DOES, BUT --
MR. COCHRAN: I DON'T HAVE IT HERE.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
OKAY.
THIS IS THE COPY OF THE DEFENDANT'S PHONE BILL AT HOWARD JOHNSON IN CHICAGO FOR JUNE THE 13TH. ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 490.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
PEOPLE'S 490, HOTEL PHONE RECORD.
(PEO'S 490 FOR ID = HOTEL PHONE RECORD)
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THE PHONE BILL THAT'S NOW BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 490. AND JUST TO HELP YOU OUT, DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO ONE PARTICULAR PHONE NUMBER HERE, (310) 476-4619, ASK IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT.
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
IS -- THAT'S THE PHONE NUMBER TO THE MAIN HOUSE?
A YES.
Q SO BETWEEN --
ALL RIGHT.
SO LOOKING AT THE CELL PHONE BILL AND THE HOTEL BILL, IT WOULD APPEAR THAT ONE PHONE CALL WAS MADE TO THE MAIN HOUSE, CORRECT, FROM CHICAGO?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION OF A POLICE OFFICER PLACING A CALL FROM THE HOUSE IN THE KITCHEN WHERE YOU WERE IN YOUR PRESENCE TO MR. SIMPSON IN CHICAGO?
A NO, I DON'T HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION OF THAT.
Q OKAY.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU, WHILE YOU HAVE THOSE IN YOUR HAND -- HANG ON TO THOSE.
MS. CLARK: ACTUALLY I BELIEVE THESE ARE ALREADY IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NUMBER OF THE EXHIBIT, THE DEFENDANT'S PHONE BILL, GTE PHONE BILL.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
WHY DON'T WE TAKE OUR RECESS AT THIS POINT AND YOU CAN LOCATE THE OTHER BILL.
MS. CLARK: OKAY. OR I CAN USE MY COPY RIGHT NOW IF IT WOULD BE EASIER JUST TO SHOW --
THE COURT: NO. BUT WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE OUR MID-AFTERNOON BREAK AT THIS TIME.
PLEASE REMEMBER ALL OF MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU.
WE'LL STAND IN RECESS FOR 15 MINUTES.
MISS SIMPSON, YOU CAN COME DOWN. COME BACK IN 15 MINUTES.
(RECESS.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER.
LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I MAKE A STATEMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YES.
MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: MISS CLARK ASKED A QUESTION, YOUR HONOR, ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT MR. SIMPSON WENT TO HAWAII WITH PAULA BARBIERI AFTER THE PERIOD OF MAY -- BETWEEN MAY OF '93 AND MAY OF '94, AND I DON'T BELIEVE THE QUESTION WAS ASKED IN GOOD FAITH. AND IF THEY HAVE ANY REPORTS, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RECORD -- HE WENT TO HAWAII IN THE SUMMER OF 1993 WITH NICOLE SIMPSON, NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, AND THE ONLY TIME HE EVER WENT WITH PAULA BARBIERI I THINK WAS IN JANUARY 1993. SHE ASKED SPECIFICALLY ABOUT A PERIOD AFTER MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON SAID THAT THEY HAD TRIED TO GET BACK TOGETHER.
THE COURT: LET'S CHECK THE RECORD AND SEE. I'M NOT GOING TO STOP THE PROCEEDINGS AT THIS POINT.
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO --
THE COURT: PLUS MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON TESTIFIED SHE HAD NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF ANYTHING LIKE THAT OCCURRING, AND THAT WAS THE END OF IT.
MR. COCHRAN: BUT THE QUESTION WAS ASKED IN BAD FAITH. THERE SHOULD BE SOME GOOD FAITH BEFORE A QUESTION IS ASKED BEFORE THE JURY.
THERE'S ONE OTHER MATTER I WOULD LIKE TO BRING UP WHEN YOU ALLOW ME TO. I WANT TO DO IT AT SIDEBAR. I CAN DO IT WHEN THE FEED IS CUT OR NOT CUT IF THE COURT WILL ALLOW US. I CAN DO THAT PERHAPS AT A LATER TIME.
SOMETHING WAS BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION DURING THE BREAK. SO IF YOU'LL LET ME KNOW WHEN I CAN DO THAT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
I'M SORRY.
MS. CLARK: LET ME INDICATE FOR THE RECORD WHILE THE JURORS ARE COMING OUT THAT, YOUR HONOR, AS A OF GOOD FAITH, PAGE 20444 AND 20445 WITH MY EXAMINATION OF KATO KAELIN DEMONSTRATES THAT HE ADMITTED -- HE HAS TESTIFIED THAT IN JANUARY OF '94, HE WAS DATING PAULA BARBIERI, AND THAT WHEN I ASKED HIM ABOUT A TRIP TO HAWAII BETWEEN '93 AND '94 THAT HE MADE WITH PAULA BARBIERI, HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY WENT. THEY WENT -- HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY WENT ON TRIPS, BUT THEY PROBABLY DID. HE DIDN'T KNOW.
AND THEN AS A MATTER OF FACT, I ASKED HIM ABOUT A MEMORIAL DAY TRIP IN JUNE OF '94, AND HE SAID, "YEAH, I THINK IT WAS TO PALM SPRINGS THEN." AND SO WE HAVE A GOOD FAITH BELIEF BASIS FOR THAT QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: IN JUNE OF '94. BY THAT TIME, THEY HAD BROKEN UP. THERE WOULD BE NO QUESTION. YOU SAW KATO KAELIN --
MS. CLARK: COUNSEL COMPLETELY IGNORED THE BEGINNING PART OF WHAT I JUST PROFFERED.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, THOSE QUESTIONS THERE --
THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.
WE'LL TAKE THIS UP LATER. I'M NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING ABOUT IT NOW.
GIVE ME THE PAGE CITE.
MS. CLARK: 20444 AND 20445.
THE COURT: GOT IT.
THANK YOU.
LET'S HAVE THE CUB SCOUTS PULL THAT UP, PLEASE.
MR. BLASIER: YOUR HONOR, 20430 IS ALSO RELEVANT. MR. SHAPIRO ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT INITIALLY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
MR. DARDEN: MAY WE APPROACH WITHOUT THE REPORTER FOR A MOMENT?
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
MISS SIMPSON, WOULD YOU RESUME THE WITNESS STAND, PLEASE.
OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONCLUDE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
YOU TESTIFIED -- WELL, LET ME BACK UP. LET ME JUST SHOW YOU THIS ONE PHONE NUMBER.
YOU'LL RECOGNIZE IT. NO, I DON'T THINK YOU WILL ACTUALLY. YOU HAVE THE BILLS IN FRONT OF YOU, CORRECT?
A YES, I DO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
I'M GOING TO LET YOU REFER TO THAT AND I'M SHOWING YOU ON THE SCREEN NOW -- LET ME READ THIS FOR YOU, WHAT YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN. THIS IS A RAW DATA BILL FOR A PHONE COMPANY, GTE.
IT SHOWS THE DATE OF JUNE 13TH, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS AT 6:05 A.M., AREA CODE (312), NUMBER 693-5800. AND YOU HAVE -- THAT 5 OVER THERE IS THE AMOUNT OF TIME. IT'S 5 MINUTES.
OKAY.
YOU HAVE THE PHONE BILL FOR MR. SIMPSON'S HOTEL ROOM IN CHICAGO, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q DOES THAT APPEAR -- THERE YOU GO.
AND THAT WAS MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 490, RIGHT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT. GOOD.
DO YOU SEE THE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE HOTEL ROOM THERE? I'M GOING TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO IT, RIGHT THERE (INDICATING).
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE SAME PHONE NUMBER THAT YOU SEE UPON THE SCREEN?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THE TOP OF THE PHONE BILL ON WHICH THIS NUMBER APPEARS AND ASK YOU TO IDENTIFY THE PHONE NUMBER SHOWN.
AND WAS THAT THE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE MAIN HOUSE BACK ON JUNE 13TH?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO DOES THIS REFLECT THAT THAT PHONE CALL WAS MADE FROM THE MAIN HOUSE, THE PHONE IN THE MAIN RESIDENCE ON JUNE THE 13TH AT 6:05 A.M. TO THE PHONE NUMBER LISTED FOR YOUR FATHER'S ROOM IN CHICAGO ON JUNE THE 13TH?
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION BASED UPON -- THE RECORDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: UH, YES.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
SO WOULD YOU AGREE THAT PERHAPS YOU ARE MISTAKEN ABOUT HAVING A PHONE CALL BEEN PLACED FROM THE MAIN RESIDENCE TO MR. SIMPSON IN CHICAGO BEFORE HE CALLED TO THE MAIN RESIDENCE?
A I DON'T RECALL THAT, BUT THERE WAS SO MUCH GOING ON AND I WAS SO EMOTIONAL THAT IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED. YES.
Q OKAY. YEAH.
YOU TESTIFIED ALSO THAT YOU THOUGHT YOU WENT TO PICK UP THE CHILDREN AT THE POLICE STATION AT 7:00 TO 7:15?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, AFTER YOU GOT THE CHILDREN FROM THE POLICE STATION -- THAT WAS -- THEY WERE IN WEST L.A.; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU WERE IN BRENTWOOD, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND IT TOOK MAYBE WHAT, 5 OR 10 MINUTES TO GET TO THE STATION?
A YES.
Q AROUND THERE.
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND IT TOOK A FEW MINUTES TO GET THEM OUT OF THE STATION, TALK TO THEM, ET CETERA?
A YES.
Q IS THAT RIGHT?
OKAY.
AND THEN ANOTHER 5 TO 10 MINUTES TO GET BACK?
A YES.
Q SO ABOUT HALF HOUR TIME LAPSE TOTAL BETWEEN THE TIME YOU LEFT TO THE TIME YOU GOT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM WITH THE CHILDREN?
A I'D SAY 20 MINUTES, BUT YES.
Q THAT'S A FAIR ESTIMATE?
A YES. IN THAT TIME FRAME, YES.
Q OKAY.
AND THEN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN -- IF YOU LEFT ABOUT 7:15, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT 7:35 TO 7:45 WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO THE HOUSE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU TESTIFIED THAT SIDNEY WENT TO SLEEP AND JUSTIN PLAYED NINTENDO?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND DO YOU RECALL KATO PLAYING NINTENDO WITH HIM AS WELL?
A NO. I DON'T RECALL THAT.
Q OKAY.
WAS KATO AROUND THOUGH AT THAT TIME?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
SO HE COULD HAVE BEEN PLAYING NINTENDO. IS THAT SOMETHING YOU --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR RECOLLECTION OF WHETHER OR NOT KATO PLAYED NINTENDO WITH JUSTIN OR NOT?
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T RECALL HIM, NO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
NOW, SOME POINT THERE AFTER YOU BROUGHT THE CHILDREN HOME, DO YOU RECALL THAT THE POLICE ASKED YOU AND KATO TO LOOK FOR THE KEYS TO THE BRONCO?
A NO, I DON'T RECALL THAT.
Q DO YOU RECALL KATO LOOKING AROUND FOR THE KEYS TO THE BRONCO?
A NO.
Q DID YOU KNOW WHETHER YOUR FATHER HAD THOSE KEYS WITH HIM IN CHICAGO AT THE TIME?
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NO, I DID NOT KNOW.
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, YOU WERE ASKED TO LEAVE THE PREMISES BY THE OFFICERS AT SOME POINT, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q HOW LONG AFTER YOU GOT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM WITH THE CHILDREN WERE YOU ASKED TO LEAVE THE PREMISES?
A MAYBE 15 TO 20 MINUTES LATER.
Q OKAY.
WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETIME AFTER 8:00 O'CLOCK THEN?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU RECALL TESTIFYING AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS MATTER, CORRECT?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S NOT THE PRELIMINARY -- I THINK PRELIMINARY HEARING.
Q BY MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY?
AT A MOTION IN THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS MATTER, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING AS TO WHAT TIME YOU WERE ASKED TO LEAVE THE PREMISES BY THE POLICE OFFICERS?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT YOUR TESTIMONY WAS AT THAT TIME?
A NOT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, NO.
Q WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IF I SHOWED YOU YOUR TESTIMONY?
A PLEASE.
MS. CLARK: COUNSEL, PAGE 66 OF VOLUME 9.
MR. COCHRAN: WHAT LINE, COUNSEL?
MS. CLARK: LINE 7. WELL, LINES 4 THROUGH 9.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
BEFORE, LET ME ASK YOU THE STANDARD LAWYER QUESTION.
BACK IN JULY OF 1994, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED AT THE MOTION AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS MATTER, CAN YOU TELL IS IF YOUR MEMORY WAS MORE FRESH AS TO THE EVENTS OF JUNE THE 13TH BACK IN JULY OF '94 THAN THEY ARE NOW?
A YES.
Q THAT WOULD BE A FAIR STATEMENT, WOULDN'T IT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO BACK THEN AND DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO LINE 4. TAKE IT TO LINE 10.
THE COURT: JUST READ THAT TO YOURSELF AND SEE IF THAT REFRESHES YOUR RECOLLECTION.
(THE WITNESS COMPLIES.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION ANY AS TO WHEN YOU WERE ASKED TO LEAVE THE PREMISES BY THE POLICE OFFICERS BACK ON JUNE THE 13TH, 1994?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND WAS THAT A MORE ACCURATE STATEMENT, THE TESTIMONY YOU GAVE BACK THEN AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING?
A YES. THAT'S FAIR TO SAY.
Q OKAY.
AND SO IS IT -- IS IT CORRECT THEN THAT THEY PROBABLY ASKED YOU TO LEAVE BETWEEN 7:15 AND 7:30?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WEREN'T SURE EXACTLY ON WHAT DAY MR. SIMPSON AND NICOLE BROWN BROKE UP, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND CERTAINLY, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT WHEN THAT HAPPENED?
A NO.
Q AND YOU DO NOT KNOW WHETHER IT HAPPENED BEFORE OR AFTER HER BIRTHDAY ON MAY 19TH, CORRECT?
A I DON'T KNOW THAT, NO.
Q OKAY.
LET ME ASK YOU, ON JUNE THE 12TH, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS SWINGING GOLF CLUBS AROUND THE HOUSE ON THAT DAY, CORRECT?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU DIDN'T SEE MISS BROWN IN THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE IN THE MONTH OF JUNE OF 1994, DID YOU?
A CAN YOU REPEAT THAT FOR ME?
Q YEAH.
YOU DIDN'T SEE MISS NICOLE BROWN IN THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE IN THE MONTH OF JUNE OF 1994, DID YOU?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU DID NOT SEE WHAT MR. SIMPSON WAS WEARING ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH WHEN HE WENT WITH KATO TO MCDONALD'S, DID YOU?
A NO.
Q AND AT 10:00 O'CLOCK P.M. ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH, WERE YOU AT A MOVIE?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THE BRONCO WAS AT THAT TIME, AT 10:00 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT?
LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.
YOU DID NOT SEE THE BRONCO AT 10:00 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT, IS THAT CORRECT, ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH?
A I DON'T RECALL.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU DID NOT SEE MR. SIMPSON BETWEEN 10:00 AND 11:00 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT ON JUNE THE 12TH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: A FEW QUESTIONS, JUDGE.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q MISS SIMPSON, YOU WERE JUST SHOWN SOME TESTIMONY THAT YOU GAVE I GUESS BACK AT A HEARING EARLIER REGARDING TIMES, WITH REGARD TO THE TIMES YOU'VE GIVEN US BACK THEN. AND TODAY, HAVE YOU BEEN AS ACCURATE AS YOU COULD?
A YES.
Q THE POINT IS, DID THE POLICE ASK YOU TO LEAVE YOUR RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q THE POINT IS, DID YOU GO PICK UP YOUR BROTHER AND SISTER?
A YES.
Q DID YOU GO TO WEST LOS ANGELES STATION TO PICK THEM UP?
A YES.
Q WITHIN 15 MINUTES OF COMING BACK, DID THE POLICE ASK YOU TO LEAVE?
A YES.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. LEADING. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. BUT IT WAS LEADING, BUT IT'S IN THE RECORD.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, LESS LEADING THEN, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO THEN WERE THOSE FACTS ACCURATE, WHAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT?
A YES.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DO YOU EVER RECALL A TIME PRIOR TO LEAVING TO PICK UP YOUR BROTHER AND SISTER THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS IN THE KITCHEN?
A I DON'T RECALL. THERE WAS SO MUCH GOING ON THAT MORNING. LIKE I SAID, AS I WAS IN AND OUT, SO WERE THEY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
A SO --
Q DO YOU SPECIFICALLY RECALL SEEING HIM IN THERE?
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. COUNSEL, YOU NEED TO ALLOW THE WITNESS TO FINISH ANSWERING THE QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: CAN YOU REPEAT THAT?
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY.
DO YOU EVER RECALL SPECIFICALLY SEEING DETECTIVE VANNATTER IN THE KITCHEN AREA?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN?
A WHEN I FIRST CAME INTO THE HOUSE.
Q AND WHEN WAS THAT? AT WHICH POINT?
A FIRST THING IN THE MORNING AROUND 5:30.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT VANNATTER NOW.
A OH, VANNATTER.
OH, OUTSIDE.
Q YES.
THAT'S -- YOU SAW VANNATTER OUTSIDE THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q BUT I'M ASKING YOU SPECIFICALLY, DO YOU EVER RECALL SEEING HIM INSIDE THE HOUSE, THE KITCHEN AREA?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU DESCRIBED FOR US EARLIER YOU SAW HIM OUT IN THE PATIO AREA NEAR THE POOL?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU RECALL THAT, DO YOU?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT THE FACT OF SOME CALLS OR CALLS MADE ALLEGEDLY FROM A HOTEL ROOM.
HAS YOUR FATHER CALLED YOU ON MANY OCCASIONS WHERE HE'S CALLED YOU WHERE SOMEBODY ELSE WAS ON THE LINE?
A YES.
Q WHERE IT WAS KIND OF A THREE-PARTY CALL?
A CONFERENCE CALL. HE DOES OFTEN.
Q DOES HE DO THAT VERY OFTEN?
A YES.
Q NOW, YOU ALSO MENTIONED THE FACT THAT REGARDING THESE DOORS ON THE EASTERN PORTION OF THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A YES.
Q AND SO THAT WE'RE CLEAR, WITH REGARD TO THOSE DOORS, IF YOU'RE INSIDE THE HOUSE IN THE FAMILY ROOM OR IN ONE OF THOSE ROOMS AND YOU WANT TO GO OUT THE DOOR THAT'S ADJACENT TO OR THE DOOR THAT FACES TOWARD THE POOL, CAN YOU GET OUT THE HOUSE AND GO OUT THAT DOOR?
A ONE OF THEM, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S A LOCK ON THE INSIDE OF THE DOOR?
A ON TWO OF THE FRENCH DOORS, THERE ARE TOP LOCKS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHEN YOU SAID "TOP LOCKS," ARE THEY HIGH UP?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND WITH REGARD TO THOSE DOORS, YOU SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THOSE DOORS HAVING BEEN NAILED SHUT?
A AND THEN THE OTHER DOORS, THERE'S A SITTING AREA THAT THOSE DOORS ARE NAILED SHUT.
Q OKAY.
AND THEY'RE NAILED SHUT NOW?
A YES.
Q WERE THEY NAILED SHUT BACK THEN?
A YES.
Q TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION?
A YES.
Q WHY ARE THEY SHUT?
A THEY WERE DONE BECAUSE THAT IS THE DOOR THAT MY SISTER ERIN WENT THROUGH WHEN SHE DROWNED IN THE POOL.
Q SO THEY'VE BEEN SHUT SINCE THEN OR NAILED SHUT SINCE THEN?
A YES. YES.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE NUMBER OF CALLS YOU RECEIVED FROM YOUR DAD, IS THERE ANY QUARREL, ANY -- STRIKE THAT.
DO YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND THAT YOU TALKED TO YOUR DAD ON THREE TIMES ON THE PHONE ON JUNE 13TH?
A YES.
Q IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND REGARDING THAT?
A NO.
Q AND IN YOUR DESCRIPTION OF YOUR DAD AND HOW HE APPEARED, HIS DEMEANOR DURING THOSE PHONE CONVERSATIONS, ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND HE WAS DISTRAUGHT AND UPSET?
A NO.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE -- MISS CLARK ASKED YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT A CELLULAR PHONE AND SHOWED YOU SOME CELLULAR PHONE RECORDS.
A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL THAT?
IF YOU KNOW, THE CELLULAR PHONE THAT YOUR DAD NORMALLY HAD, DID THAT CELLULAR PHONE GO INTO ONE OF HIS CARS ALSO?
A YES.
Q AND WHICH CAR DID THE CELLULAR PHONE GO INTO?
A THE BRONCO.
Q AND WAS IT POSSIBLE THAT HE COULD THEN TAKE THE CELLULAR PHONE OUT OF THE BRONCO AND TAKE IT WITH HIM WHEN HE TOOK THE TRIP TO CHICAGO?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: NO. NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS SIMPSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. YOU'RE EXCUSED.
NEXT WITNESS.
MR. COCHRAN: ASK THAT MISS SIMPSON BE ALLOWED TO REMAIN NOW PER OUR EARLIER AGREEMENT.
THE COURT: ANY OBJECTION?
MS. CLARK: IF SHE'S NOT GOING TO BE RECALLED, THERE'S NO PROBLEM.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
NEXT WITNESS.
MR. COCHRAN: THE NEXT WITNESS WILL BE CARMELITA DURIO.
MR. SHAPIRO: WE WOULD LIKE TO CALL CARMELITA SIMPSON DURIO PLEASE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
IS SHE AVAILABLE OUTSIDE?
MR. SHAPIRO: YES.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
CARMELITA SIMPSON DURIO,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENDANT, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MRS. DURIO, IF YOU'D JUST COME OVER HERE AND STAND BY THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.
FACE THE CLERK.
THE CLERK: RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, PLEASE.
YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT IN THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: CARMELITA SIMPSON DURIO, C-A-R-M-E-L-I-T-A S-I-M-P-S-O-N-D-U-R-I-O.
MR. SHAPIRO: GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q AND GOOD AFTERNOON, MRS. DURIO.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q ARE YOU A LITTLE BIT NERVOUS THIS AFTERNOON?
A YES.
Q YOU'VE BEEN IN THIS COURTROOM THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE TRIAL; HAVE YOU NOT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU'RE HERE BECAUSE YOU ARE RELATED TO MR. SIMPSON?
A YES, I AM.
Q AND WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP?
A I'M HIS YOUNGEST SISTER.
Q HOW MANY OTHER SISTERS ARE IN THE FAMILY?
A I HAVE ONE SISTER AND TWO BROTHERS.
Q AND TWO BROTHERS?
A YES.
Q AND DURING THE TIME THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE COURTHOUSE WATCHING THE TRIAL, HAVE YOU ALSO BEEN GAINFULLY EMPLOYED?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q WHAT IS YOUR EMPLOYMENT?
A I -- WHO I WORK FOR?
Q YES.
A I WORK FOR DE SALVO TRUCKING COMPANY IN SAN FRANCISCO.
Q AND WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THEM?
A I'M AN EXECUTIVE ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT.
Q AND HOW ARE YOU ABLE TO MAINTAIN YOUR JOB AND COME TO COURT EVERY DAY?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WELL, I'M WORKING ON A SPECIAL PROJECT. I WORK EVERY EVENINGS AFTER I GET OUT OF COURT UNTIL ABOUT 1:00 OR 2:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING. ON THURSDAYS, I FLY HOME, THURSDAY EVENINGS, AND I WORK IN MY OFFICE ON FRIDAY, SATURDAY, HALF A DAY SUNDAY, I GO TO CHURCH, THEN I COME BACK DOWN HERE.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: I WANT TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE DATE OF JUNE THE 13TH.
WERE YOU NOTIFIED OF A HORRIBLE EVENT --
A YES, I WAS.
Q -- ON THAT DATE?
AND HOW WERE YOU SO NOTIFIED AND WHAT WERE YOU NOTIFIED OF?
A I WAS AT WORK, AND I RECEIVED A CALL FROM A COUSIN WHO SAID THAT HER DAUGHTER HAD HEARD ON THE RADIO IN ATLANTA THAT SOMETHING HAD HAPPENED TO ONE OF MY EX-SISTER-IN-LAWS. SHE WASN'T SURE WHICH ONE IT WAS.
Q AND AS A RESULT OF THAT, DID YOU EVENTUALLY FIND AND COME TO LEARN THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON HAD BEEN MURDERED?
A YES.
Q DID YOU MAKE ARRANGEMENTS TO LEAVE YOUR FAMILY HOME AND COME TO LOS ANGELES?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID YOU ARRIVE IN LOS ANGELES THAT EVENING?
A YES, I DID.
Q WITH WHOM DID YOU ARRIVE?
A MY HUSBAND CHARLES.
Q AND WHEN YOU ARRIVED IN LOS ANGELES, DID YOU IMMEDIATELY GO TO THE HOME OF YOUR BROTHER, O.J. SIMPSON, ON ROCKINGHAM?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID YOU ARRIVE THERE IN THE EVENING?
A YES.
Q WERE THERE ANY OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS THAT WERE THERE WHEN YOU ARRIVED?
A MY MOTHER, MY SISTER SHIRLEY, ARNELLE, MY NIECE, CHERRY. THOSE WERE THE ONLY FAMILY -- O.J. THOSE WERE THE ONLY FAMILY MEMBERS.
Q WERE THERE OTHER FRIENDS AND ACQUAINTANCES THAT WERE THERE?
A YES. CATHY RANDA, BOB KARDASHIAN, JOE STELLINI, RON SHIPP, AND THERE WERE QUITE A FEW OTHER PEOPLE. PEOPLE WERE COMING IN AND OUT, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER THEIR NAMES.
Q WHAT WAS THE ATMOSPHERE AT THE FAMILY HOME THAT EVENING?
A VERY QUIET. WE WERE BASICALLY IN SHOCK TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED. WE HAD HEARD SO MANY DIFFERENT STORIES AND NO ONE KNEW.
Q YOUR BROTHER WAS THERE?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO COMFORT HIM?
A BRIEFLY.
Q AND DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO BE WITH HIM?
A YES.
Q AND TO OBSERVE HIM?
A YES.
Q AND HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HIS MOOD, HIS DEMEANOR?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT HE WAS OUT OF IT. YOU KNOW, HE WAS SHOCKED, DAZED. IT WAS -- HE WAS JUST THERE.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHERE WAS HE WHEN YOU MADE YOUR FIRST OBSERVATIONS?
A HE WAS SITTING ON THE COUCH IN THE FAMILY ROOM WITH MY MOTHER.
Q YOU ALSO MENTIONED THAT THERE WAS A MAN NAMED RON SHIPP WHO WAS THERE?
A YES.
Q WHERE DID YOU SEE HIM WHEN YOU WERE IN THE DOWNSTAIRS AREA OF THE HOME?
A HE WAS SITTING AT THE BAR AREA OFF FROM THE FAMILY ROOM.
Q AND WHAT WAS HE DOING?
A HE WAS DRINKING.
Q DID YOU HAVE AN OCCASION TO FORM AN OPINION AS TO THE AMOUNT OF ALCOHOL HE HAD CONSUMED?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. LACK OF FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: HOW LONG DID YOU OBSERVE MR. SHIPP AT THE BAR?
A HE WAS THERE A LONG TIME WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONCE.
Q DID YOU TALK TO THEM -- TALK TO HIM?
A YES. YES.
Q AND I TAKE IT ALTHOUGH THIS IS A LARGE HOME, THIS IS A SMALL AREA WITHIN THE HOME WHERE EVERYBODY WAS CONGREGATING?
A YES, IT IS.
Q AND DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO IN YOUR MIND COME TO A CONCLUSION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD BEEN DRINKING ALCOHOL?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. LACK OF FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU SEE HIM DRINK ANY BEVERAGE?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. LEADING.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: YES, I DID.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT DID YOU SEE HIM DRINK?
A BEER.
Q HOW DID YOU KNOW IT WAS BEER?
A HE WAS DRINKING IT OUT OF THE CAN.
Q DID YOU SEE HOW MANY BEERS HE DRANK?
A I WASN'T COUNTING, BUT I MEAN -- HE HAD BEER.
Q OKAY.
WAS HE DRINKING OVER A PERIOD OF TIME?
A YES. FROM THE TIME I WAS THERE UNTIL THE TIME HE LEFT.
Q DID YOU TALK TO HIM?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID YOU OBSERVE HIS FACE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU OBSERVE HIS EYES?
A YES.
Q DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO GET CLOSE ENOUGH TO SMELL HIS BREATH?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING AS A RESULT OF THOSE OBSERVATIONS?
A I FELT HE WAS HIGH, BUT -- I MEAN, I'VE BEEN AROUND PEOPLE THAT DRINK AND I KNOW WHEN SOMEONE HAS HAD A COUPLE OF DRINKS.
Q SO YOUR CONCLUSION WAS HE WAS HIGH?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE YOUR BROTHER LEAVE THE DOWNSTAIRS AREA AT SOME TIME THAT EVENING?
A YES, I DID.
Q DO YOU KNOW APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME THAT WAS?
A I WOULD SAY RIGHT AROUND 9:00 O'CLOCK.
Q AND WHERE DID YOUR BROTHER GO?
A HE WENT UPSTAIRS.
Q DID YOU GO WITH HIM?
A NOT AT THAT POINT.
Q DID ANYONE ELSE GO WITH HIM?
A BOB KARDASHIAN.
Q AT SOME TIME LATER, DID YOU GO UPSTAIRS?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE ANYONE ELSE GO UPSTAIRS BEFORE YOU WENT UPSTAIRS?
A MY SISTER.
Q AND WHEN YOU CAME UPSTAIRS, WHO WAS THERE?
A WHEN I FIRST WENT UPSTAIRS, IT WAS JUST MY HUSBAND, MY SISTER, MY BROTHER. THAT'S IT.
Q AND YOU BROTHER -- O.J. WAS WHERE?
A HE WAS IN THE BED.
Q WHAT WERE THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE ROOM DOING?
A WELL, MY HUSBAND WAS IN THE OTHER ROOM. SHIRLEY WAS STAND -- HAD JUST WALKED IN AND SHE WAS SITTING ON THE COUCH. BOB KARDASHIAN WAS LEAVING OUT OF THE ROOM. HE WAS LEAVING.
Q AND HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE ROOM?
A MAYBE THREE TO FIVE MINUTES.
Q DID YOU SPEND THE ENTIRE -- DID YOU SLEEP AT YOUR BROTHER'S HOUSE THAT NIGHT?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID ANY OF YOUR OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS SLEEP THERE?
A YES. THE WHOLE FAMILY WAS THERE.
Q WHERE DID YOU SLEEP?
A I ACTUALLY SLEPT DOWNSTAIRS ON A LITTLE COUCH IN THE BREAKFAST -- OFF FROM THE KITCHEN SO I COULD BE CLOSE TO MY MOTHER.
Q AND THERE WEREN'T ENOUGH BEDS FOR EVERYONE TO SLEEP IN?
A THERE WAS ENOUGH BEDS FOR THE FAMILY TO SLEEP IN, YEAH. BUT YEAH, BUT I JUST SLEPT DOWN TO BE CLOSE TO MY MOTHER.
Q DID ANYBODY TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE SLEEP IN YOUR BROTHER'S ROOM?
A YES.
Q WHO SLEPT THERE?
A BESIDES MY BROTHER?
Q YES.
A MY SISTER AND MY BROTHER-IN-LAW.
Q TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DID YOU EVER SEE -- DID YOU EVER SEE RON SHIPP UP IN YOUR BROTHER'S BEDROOM?
A YES, I DID.
Q WAS ANYONE ELSE UP THERE WHEN HE WAS UP THERE?
A YES. MY SISTER -- I'M SORRY.
Q WHO ELSE WAS THERE?
A MY SISTER SHIRLEY.
Q AND YOURSELF?
A YES.
Q AND YOUR BROTHER?
A YES.
Q AND FOR HOW LONG A PERIOD OF TIME WAS MR. SHIPP THERE?
A A COUPLE OF MINUTES.
Q TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS MR. SHIPP EVER ALONE WITH YOUR BROTHER FROM THE TIME YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE UNTIL THE TIME YOU WENT TO BED, WHICH WAS -- WHAT TIME DID YOU GO TO BED?
A I WENT TO BED AFTER 12:00, MAYBE AROUND 12:30.
Q TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS YOUR BROTHER EVER ALONE WITH MR. SHIPP?
A NO, SIR.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU.
NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. DARDEN:
Q GOOD AFTERNOON.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q ARE YOU FROM SAN FRANCISCO?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
DID YOU SPEND MOST OF YOUR TIME THAT EVENING IN THE T.V. ROOM?
A YES.
Q AND THAT'S ON THE FIRST FLOOR?
A YES, IT IS.
Q AND DIRECTLY ADJACENT TO THE T.V. ROOM IS THE BAR AREA; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES. IT'S ALL CONNECTED.
Q IT'S ALL CONNECTED. IT'S AN OPEN AREA?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND SO YOU CAN SEE THE BAR AREA FROM THE T.V. ROOM?
A YES.
Q BUT YOU CAN'T SEE THE STAIRWAY LEADING UPSTAIRS TO THE BEDROOM FROM THE T.V. ROOM, CAN YOU?
A NO.
Q AND SO IF SOMEONE HAD WALKED UP THE STAIRWAY TO THE SECOND FLOOR, YOU COULDN'T SEE THAT FROM THE TELEVISION ROOM?
A NO.
Q AND SO YOU CAN'T TESTIFY THEN AS TO WHO WENT UPSTAIRS AND AT WHAT TIME AND WITH WHOM THAT IS THROUGHOUT THE NIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I COULD TESTIFY TO WHO I SAW GO UP THE STAIRS AND WHO I WAS TALKING TO.
Q OKAY.
OKAY. AND I APPRECIATE THAT.
BUT YOU CAN'T SEE THE STAIRWAY FROM THE TELEVISION ROOM?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU SAY YOU SAW RON SHIPP AND THAT HIS FACE WAS PUFFY?
A I DON'T THINK I USED THOSE WORDS.
Q OKAY.
HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE --
A I SAID HE APPEARED TO BE HIGH.
Q OKAY.
HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HIS FACE?
A HIS EYES WERE GLASSY. HE WAS MUTTERING TO HIMSELF AND BASICALLY LIKE TALKING IN CIRCLES.
Q WERE HIS EYES SWOLLEN?
A I MEAN, I DIDN'T LOOK THAT CLOSELY AT HIM. I DON'T KNOW.
Q WERE HIS EYES RED?
A YES, THEY WERE.
Q DID HIS FACE APPEAR SWOLLEN?
A I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS FACE LOOKS LIKE NORMALLY.
Q OKAY.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HIS FACE LOOKS LIKE AFTER HE'S BEEN CRYING?
A NO, I DON'T.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT RON SHIPP HAD BEEN CRYING AND GRIEVING OVER NICOLE'S DEATH PRIOR TO YOUR ARRIVAL THAT EVENING?
A NO, I DON'T.
Q YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU SPENT THREE TO FIVE MINUTES UPSTAIRS IN THE DEFENDANT'S BEDROOM?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND RON SHIPP --
A OH, EXCUSE ME. LET ME CLARIFY THAT.
I WASN'T ACTUALLY IN THE BEDROOM. I WAS IN THE HALLWAY. I WAS IN THE DOORWAY.
Q OKAY.
OKAY. AND SO YOU ONLY SPENT THREE TO FIVE MINUTES NEAR THE BEDROOM?
A YES. YES.
Q THAT ENTIRE NIGHT?
A NO, NO, NO.
AT THE POINT THAT I WENT UPSTAIRS, I WAS THERE ABOUT THREE TO FIVE MINUTES. I WAS UP CHECKING ON MY HUSBAND AS WELL AS MY BROTHER.
Q OKAY.
WHEN THE DEFENDANT WEPT UPSTAIRS --
A YES.
Q -- AT ABOUT 9:00 O'CLOCK --
A YES.
Q -- WHERE WAS RON SHIPP?
A HE WAS SITTING IN THE BAR AREA TALKING TO ME.
Q OKAY.
AND WERE YOU IN THE BAR AREA WITH HIM?
A YES, I WAS.
Q IN THE T.V. ROOM?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER SEE RON SHIPP LEAVE THE BAR AREA?
A AT ONE POINT. WE BOTH LEFT AT THE SAME TIME.
Q WHAT TIME WAS THAT?
A BETWEEN 9:30, 10:00 O'CLOCK.
Q OKAY.
AND WHERE DID HE GO AT THAT TIME?
A UPSTAIRS.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU FOLLOWED HIM UPSTAIRS?
A I DIDN'T ACTUALLY FOLLOW HIM. I WENT UP AND HE CAME UP BEHIND ME.
Q WAS RON SHIPP AND YOUR BROTHER CLOSE FRIENDS?
A I HAD NEVER MET RON SHIPP BEFORE TO MY KNOWLEDGE. SO I CAN'T ANSWER THAT. I DON'T BELIEVE SO.
Q SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS?
A NO.
Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THE DEFENDANT HAD EVER CONFIDED IN RON SHIPP BEFORE?
A NO, I DON'T.
Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THE DEFENDANT HAD ASKED RON SHIPP ON PRIOR OCCASIONS TO HANDLE SOME PERSONAL MATTERS ON HIS BEHALF?
MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. BEYOND THE SCOPE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: NO, I DON'T.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: WERE YOU AWARE THAT RON SHIPP WAS A FORMER POLICE OFFICER?
A YES. HE TOLD ME.
Q DID YOU KNOW THAT PRIOR TO MEETING RON SHIPP?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
Q DID YOU KNOW WHEN YOU MET RON SHIPP THAT HE HAD SPECIAL TRAINING IN CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATIONS?
A NO.
MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. SHAPIRO: ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU MET RON SHIPP, DID HE -- DID HE SPEAK ILL OF YOUR BROTHER?
A HE REALLY DIDN'T TALK ABOUT MY BROTHER.
Q DID HE APPEAR TO BE THERE IN SUPPORT OF YOUR BROTHER AND YOUR FAMILY?
A I ASSUMED HE WAS.
MR. SHAPIRO: OKAY.
THANK YOU.
THAT'S ALL.
THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO.
MR. SHAPIRO: NOTHING FURTHER.
THANK YOU.
THE COURT: MISS DURIO, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. YOU ARE EXCUSED.
MR. SHAPIRO: MAY WE APPROACH FOR A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: SURE.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THERE'S A BRIEF DELAY WHILE WE HAVE OUR NEXT WITNESS COME TO THE COURTROOM. IT WILL BE ABOUT 5 OR 10 MINUTES, BUT IT'S JUST TO GET THE WITNESS UP TO THE COURTROOM.
OKAY?
SO IF YOU'LL JUST STEP BACK INTO THE JURY ROOM. AND AS SOON AS THE WITNESS APPEARS, WE'LL CALL YOU BACK OUT.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED.
ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN, WHO IS YOUR NEXT WITNESS?
MR. COCHRAN: MISS EUNICE SIMPSON, YOUR HONOR, WHO WILL BE HERE SHORTLY.
THE COURT: WHO COMES AFTER EUNICE SIMPSON?
MR. COCHRAN: AFTER MISS EUNICE SIMPSON, IF WE GET TO THAT TODAY, WE'LL CALL MISS CONNOR.
MR. DARDEN: WHILE WE HAVE THE BREAK, YOUR HONOR, IT IS 4:00 O'CLOCK. CAN WE HAVE THE ORDER OF WITNESSES FOR TOMORROW?
THE COURT: WHO DO YOU'VE GOT FOR TOMORROW? LET'S ASSUME WE GET THROUGH EUNICE SIMPSON AND --
MR. COCHRAN: MAY MR. DOUGLAS ANSWER THAT?
THE COURT: MR. DOUGLAS.
MS. CLARK: ARE WE STILL IN SESSION?
THE COURT: YES.
LET'S FINISH THIS CASE.
ALL RIGHT.
MR. DOUGLAS, DO YOU HAVE THE NEXT WITNESSES? DO YOU HAVE THE WITNESSES FOR TOMORROW FOR THE PROSECUTION?
MR. DOUGLAS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
WILL YOU GIVE THAT TO MR. DARDEN, PLEASE?
MR. DOUGLAS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: WHAT HAPPENED TO MR. COCHRAN? IS HE OUT GETTING MRS. SIMPSON?
MR. DOUGLAS: CORRECT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, ARE YOU GOING TO BE PRESENTING MISS EUNICE SIMPSON?
MR. SHAPIRO: MR. COCHRAN WILL, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. SHAPIRO: WE DO HAVE OTHER WITNESSES AVAILABLE. I ASSUME -- WHAT TIME IS YOUR HONOR ANTICIPATING RECESSING?
THE COURT: 5:00 O'CLOCK TODAY.
MR. SHAPIRO: WE MAY HAVE TIME FOR ANOTHER WITNESS.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK, WHILE WE ARE WAITING, WHY DON'T YOU RETRIEVE THE PHONE RECORDS.
MS. CLARK: MAY I?
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.
ALL RIGHT.
DEPUTY JEX, WOULD YOU ASSIST MRS. SIMPSON, PLEASE.
THE COURT: LET'S HAVE THE JURORS.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE
PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED.
LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL.
GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON.
THE COURT: AND, MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CALL YOUR NEXT WITNESS.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
WE'LL NEXT CALL MISS EUNICE SIMPSON TO THE STAND.
EUNICE DURDEN SIMPSON,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENDANT, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: MRS. ROBERTSON.
THE CLERK: MA'AM, CAN YOU RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, PLEASE?
MA'AM, CAN YOU RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, PLEASE? RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE CLERK: THANK YOU.
CAN YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE.
A MY NAME IS EUNICE DURDEN SIMPSON.
Q EUNICE DURDEN, D-U-R-D-E-N?
A MY MAIDEN NAME, DURDEN.
Q SIMPSON.
GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS SIMPSON.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q IF I KEEP MY VOICE UP, I'LL ASK YOU TO KEEP YOUR VOICE UP ALSO.
WILL YOU DO THAT FOR US?
CAN YOU HEAR ME OKAY? CAN YOU HEAR ME OKAY?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO SPEAK RIGHT INTO THE MICROPHONE.
IS THAT OKAY?
A OKAY.
Q NOW, MISS SIMPSON, I WANT TO DIRECT YOU TO THE GENTLEMAN AT THE FAR END OF COUNSEL TABLE, MR. O.J. SIMPSON.
AND ARE YOU RELATED TO HIM IN SOME WAY?
A YES. I'M HIS MOTHER.
Q AND HOW MANY CHILDREN DO YOU HAVE, MISS SIMPSON?
A I HAVE FOUR CHILDREN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND TELL US THEIR NAMES AND WHAT ORDER YOU HAD THEM IN.
A MY FIRST IS MISS SHIRLEY BAKER AND MELVIN LEON SIMPSON WHO WE CALL TRUMAN AND O.J., ORENTHAL JAMES, MY NO. 2 SON, AND CARMELITA SIMPSON DURIO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THE -- YOUR TWO DAUGHTERS -- WELL, CARMELITA IS HERE AND SHIRLEY IS IN THE BACK OF THE COURTROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A RIGHT.
Q AND YOU HAVE ONE OTHER SON OLDER THAN O.J.; IS THAT CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU CALLED HIM ORENTHAL JAMES; IS THAT RIGHT? YOU CALLED YOUR SON ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON?
A I CALL HIM O.J.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HOW DID HE GET THE NAME ORENTHAL JAMES?
A O.J. IS SHORT FOR -- JUST SHORT BECAUSE HE NEVER LIKED ORENTHAL JAMES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HOW WAS HE NAMED ORENTHAL JAMES?
A OH, HIS -- MY SISTER --
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.
THE WITNESS: MY SISTER NAMED HIM.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: YOUR SISTER NAMED HIM THAT. BUT YOU CALL HIM O.J.; IS THAT RIGHT?
A I CALL HIM O.J.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WHERE DO YOU PRESENTLY LIVE, MISS SIMPSON?
A I PRESENTLY LIVE AT 101 APOLLO --
Q WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO GIVE YOUR ADDRESS. BUT -- I'M SORRY. LET ME ASK IT ANOTHER WAY.
WHAT CITY DO YOU PRESENTLY LIVE IN?
A SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA.
Q AND FOR HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU LIVED IN SAN FRANCISCO?
A I'VE LIVED THERE FOR ABOUT 28 YEARS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WERE YOU BORN IN ANOTHER STATE IN --
A YES.
Q -- THIS UNION?
A YES.
Q AND WAS THAT THE GREAT STATE OF LOUISIANA?
A LOUISIANA.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHAT PART OF LOUISIANA WERE YOU BORN IN?
A SHREVEPORT, LOUISIANA.
Q AND AFTER YOU LEFT LOUISIANA, DID YOU GO TO THE STATE OF FLORIDA?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID YOUR HUSBAND WORK IN SOME OTHER STATES FOR A WHILE?
A HE WAS IN SERVICE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN DID YOU GO TO MICHIGAN?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND THEN YOU FINALLY SETTLED IN CALIFORNIA IN SAN FRANCISCO?
A I DID.
Q AND YOU LIVED IN SAN FRANCISCO SINCE THAT TIME?
A RIGHT.
Q NOW, HOW WERE YOU EMPLOYED WHEN YOU WORKED? WHAT KIND OF WORK DID YOU DO?
A I WAS FIRST EMPLOYED AS AN ORDERLY AND I WENT ON TO PSYCHIATRIC TECHNICIAN.
Q YOU WORKED AS A PSYCHIATRIC TECHNICIAN?
A RIGHT.
Q AT WHAT HOSPITAL DID YOU WORK?
A AT --
Q WHERE WAS IT?
A AT SAN FRANCISCO GENERAL HOSPITAL.
Q AND HOW MANY YEARS DID YOU WORK AT SAN FRANCISCO GENERAL HOSPITAL?
A 38 YEARS.
Q AND YOU WORKED IN THE PSYCHIATRIC WARD?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND HOW MANY OF THOSE YEARS DID YOU WORK IN THE PSYCHIATRIC WARD?
A I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
Q DID YOU WORK ALL 38 YEARS IN THE PSYCHIATRIC WARD?
A YES, I DID.
Q YOU WERE AT ONE TIME AN ORDERLY AND THEN YOU CHANGED POSITIONS AFTER THAT?
A RIGHT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHILE YOU WERE WORKING, DID YOU RAISE THESE FOUR CHILDREN YOURSELF?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID -- AT SOME POINT, MR. SIMPSON WAS OUT OF THE HOME?
A I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
Q DID YOU SEPARATE FROM YOUR HUSBAND MR. SIMPSON AT SOME POINT?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID YOU THEN RAISE THESE CHILDREN YOURSELF?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID YOU WORK AT NIGHT --
A YES, I DID.
Q -- DURING THOSE YEARS?
A YES, I DID.
Q HOW MANY YEARS DID YOU WORK AT NIGHT AT SAN FRANCISCO GENERAL HOSPITAL?
A 17 YEARS WHILE THEY WERE IN SCHOOL, YOUNG.
Q YOU WORKED AT NIGHT SO YOU COULD TAKE CARE OF THEM DURING THE DAY?
A RIGHT.
Q NOW, ARE YOU ACTIVE, STILL ACTIVE IN YOUR CHURCH IN SAN FRANCISCO?
A YES, I AM.
Q WHAT CHURCH IS THAT?
A EVERGREEN BAPTIST CHURCH, SAN FRANCISCO.
Q AND DO YOU STILL PARTICIPATE IN SOME SUNDAY SCHOOL THERE?
A YES, I DO.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, I THINK SOME OF THIS IS --
MR. COCHRAN: YES. I'LL MOVE ON, YOUR HONOR. JUST ONE OTHER QUESTION IN THIS AREA.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WHAT DO YOU DO AT THE SUNDAY SCHOOL?
A PARDON?
Q WHAT DO YOU DO AT SUNDAY SCHOOL AT YOUR CHURCH?
A I PLAY THE PIANO.
Q YOU TRY TO GO EVERY SUNDAY?
A RIGHT.
Q NOW, MISS SIMPSON, WITH REGARD TO YOUR SON'S HOUSE AT ROCKINGHAM HERE IN LOS ANGELES, HAVE YOU BEEN COMING DOWN TO VISIT HIM AT THAT HOUSE FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q AND HOW MANY GRANDCHILDREN DO YOU HAVE ALTOGETHER?
A I HAVE --
Q A LOT?
A -- NINE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
ABOUT NINE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU'RE AWARE OF COURSE THAT YOUR SON HAS FOUR CHILDREN?
A RIGHT.
Q AND WITH REGARD TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE AND YOUR SON'S MARRIAGE TO MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, WOULD YOU COME DOWN ON OCCASION TO VISIT THAT RESIDENCE?
A YES, I DID.
Q WOULD YOU COME DOWN TO TRY AND SEE THE CHILDREN?
A YES, I DID.
Q HOW OFTEN WOULD YOU TRY TO COME DOWN FROM SAN FRANCISCO TO SEE THE CHILDREN?
A AFTER THE FIRST BORN OF NICOLE AND O.J.'S, I TRIED TO COME EVERY THREE MONTHS.
Q AND WHY DID YOU TRY TO COME EVERY THREE MONTHS?
A BECAUSE I WANTED THE CHIL -- THEM TO KNOW ME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU TRY TO DO THAT, DID YOU, OVER A PERIOD OF TIME?
A YES.
Q NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR SON O.J., WHEN HE WAS BORN, WAS HE BORN WITH ANY PARTICULAR PROBLEM?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.
MR. COCHRAN: IT WILL BE RELEVANT, YOUR HONOR. IT WILL BE RELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WAS HE BORN WITH ANY PARTICULAR PROBLEM?
A YES, HE WAS.
Q AND WHAT WAS THAT PROBLEM?
A HE HAD RICKETS.
Q AND WHAT ARE RICKETS?
A RICKETS ARE SOFT BONES, LACK OF CALCIUM.
Q AND DID YOU DO SOMETHING SPECIAL REGARDING HIM IN THE EARLY YEARS?
A YES, IT WAS.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO?
A WELL, I FELT IT WAS BEST BECAUSE IT WAS MY FAULT.
Q WHY WAS IT YOUR FAULT?
A BECAUSE I NURSED MY NO. 1 SON WHILE I WAS CARRYING HIM.
Q IN OTHER WORDS, YOU NURSED YOUR NO. 1 SON WHILE YOU WERE PREGNANT WITH O.J.?
A CORRECT.
Q SO -- WELL, YOU SHOULDN'T BLAME YOURSELF, BUT YOU FELT THAT WAS YOUR FAULT?
A I DO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHAT DID YOU DO REGARDING HIS RICKETS IF ANYTHING?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WHAT DID I DO?
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WHAT DID YOU DO TO MAKE HIS LEGS BETTER OR STRONGER?
A WELL, BETWEEN THE DOCTOR AND THE DOCTOR'S MEDICINE AND HOME REMEDIES AND MOSTLY TENDER LOVING CARE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THAT'S PROBABLY THE BEST OF ALL.
ALL RIGHT.
NOW, MA'AM, WITH REGARD TO YOU AND YOUR SON, WOULD HE ON OCCASION HAVE OCCASION TO COME AND VISIT YOU IN SAN FRANCISCO?
A YES, HE DID.
Q ON ANY PARTICULAR KIND OF DAYS, WOULD HE COME TO SAN FRANCISCO TO VISIT YOU?
A WELL, MOSTLY WAS HOLIDAYS AND OFF-SEASON TIME, WHEN HE WASN'T WORKING.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WHEN HE WASN'T PLAYING FOOTBALL OR BEING A SPORTSCASTER?
A RIGHT.
Q NOW, WOULD HE ON OCCASION DISCUSS WITH YOU ANY KIND OF PROBLEMS THAT HE WAS HAVING?
A OH, YES.
Q WOULD YOU GIVE HIM YOUR BEST ADVICE?
A YES, TO MY BEST ABILITY.
Q NOW, I WANT TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION, MA'AM, TO THE DATE OF MONDAY, JUNE 13TH, 1994.
AT SOME TIME ON THAT DATE, DID YOU FIND OUT THAT YOUR FORMER DAUGHTER-IN-LAW, NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, HAD BEEN KILLED? DID YOU FIND THAT OUT?
A I FOUND IT OUT, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND SOMEBODY CALLED YOU AND TOLD YOU THAT?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU AT THAT POINT, AFTER LEARNING THAT, COME TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, COME TO LOS ANGELES?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND TELL US HOW YOU CAME TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, TO LOS ANGELES.
A I FLEW I THINK IT WAS UNITED.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHO DID YOU COME WITH IF YOU RECALL?
A MY DAUGHTER SHIRLEY.
Q OKAY.
YOU AND SHIRLEY CAME TOGETHER?
A RIGHT.
Q AND ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE IN LOS ANGELES AT THE AIRPORT IF YOU RECALL?
A I WOULD SAY SOMEWHERE A LITTLE AFTER 4:00 O'CLOCK.
Q IN THE AFTERNOON?
A RIGHT.
Q AND THAT WAS ON MONDAY THE 13TH, RIGHT?
A RIGHT.
Q AND THEREAFTER, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION -- DID YOU THEN GO TO THE ROCKINGHAM AVENUE RESIDENCE?
A YES. WE WENT THERE FIRST.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WENT RIGHT TO THE HOUSE?
A RIGHT.
Q AND WERE YOU ABLE TO GET INTO THE HOUSE RIGHT AWAY?
A NO. THEY TOLD US THAT WE COULDN'T GO IN AND DIRECTED US TO THE JAIL.
Q SO YOU COULDN'T GET INTO YOUR HOUSE -- THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE AT FIRST; IS THAT CORRECT?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AT SOME POINT THAT AFTERNOON, DID YOU COME BACK AND WERE YOU ABLE TO GET INTO ROCKINGHAM?
A AS SOON AS WE WERE TOLD THAT WE COULD GO BACK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WERE TOLD YOU COULD GO BACK AT SOME POINT?
A RIGHT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT TIME THAT WAS, YOU WERE TOLD YOU COULD COME BACK? WAS IT AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK?
A I -- NO, I DON'T.
Q ALL RIGHT.
BUT YOU WERE STILL WITH YOUR DAUGHTER SHIRLEY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A RIGHT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN AT SOME POINT, YOU CAME BACK TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE, MA'AM, AFTER YOU GOT THERE, DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO SEE YOUR SON, ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO TALK TO HIM --
A RIGHT AWAY.
Q -- AFTER YOU GOT BACK?
WERE YOU IN A PARTICULAR ROOM IN THE HOUSE WHEN YOU SAW HIM AND YOU WERE TALKING TO HIM?
A YES. IN THE -- IN THE SITTING ROOM.
Q ALL RIGHT.
IS THE SITTING ROOM, IS THAT THE ROOM WHERE THE TELEVISIONS ARE?
A YES.
Q AND DESCRIBE FOR THE JURY HOW YOU WERE SITTING IN THAT ROOM. WERE YOU SITTING ON A COUCH OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
A HE WAS SITTING ON A COUCH.
Q AND WHERE WERE YOU SITTING?
A I SAT -- WHEN HE STOOD UP, HE HELPED SIT ME DOWN RIGHT NEXT TO HIM.
Q SO YOU SAT RIGHT NEXT TO HIM; IS THAT RIGHT?
A RIGHT.
Q DID YOU IN ANY WAY TOUCH HIM AT THAT POINT OR WAS HE TOUCHING YOU?
A OH, YES. WE WERE GRIPPING EACH OTHER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
YOU WERE GRIPPING EACH OTHER? AND HOW WAS HE GRIPPING OR HOLDING YOU?
A VERY TIGHTLY.
Q WHAT WAS HE TOUCHING?
A MY HAND. AT FIRST, A HUG AND THEN MY HANDS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HE CONTINUED TO HOLD YOUR HAND FOR A PERIOD OF TIME?
A ALL DURING THE TIME.
Q AND AS YOU SAT THERE, DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO NOTICE YOUR SON AND NOTICE HOW HE SEEMED AT THAT POINT? DID YOU LOOK AT HIM?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID HE SEEM UPSET TO YOU?
A OH, HE SEEMED VERY UPSET. SHOCKED.
Q AND YOU OBSERVED THIS YOURSELF?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND YOU SAT THERE RIGHT NEXT TO HIM, DID YOU?
A YES, I DID.
Q NOW, DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME, HOW LONG DID YOU ALL STAY IN THIS FAMILY ROOM WITH YOU SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO HIM AND THE TWO OF YOU MORE OR LESS HOLDING HANDS? HOW LONG DID THAT GO ON IF YOU RECALL?
A WELL, FROM THE TIME THAT I ARRIVED THERE UNTIL HE DECIDED TO GO UPSTAIRS AND GO TO BED.
Q IN OTHER WORDS, YOU TWO KIND OF STAYED RIGHT THERE CLOSE TO EACH OTHER; IS THAT RIGHT?
A TOGETHER. RIGHT.
Q WOULD YOU TALK ON OCCASION? WOULD YOU TALK TO EACH OTHER?
A YES, WE DID, AS MUCH AS WE COULD.
Q YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, BUT YOU TALKED?
A YES, WE DID.
Q OKAY.
NOW, WERE THERE OTHER PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE AND CAME IN AND OUT OF THAT HOUSE THAT EVENING, MA'AM?
A YES, THERE WERE.
Q DID YOU KNOW ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
Q DID YOU KNOW SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE?
A YES, I DID.
Q NOW, BEFORE THIS DATE OF JUNE 13TH, 1994, DID YOU KNOW A PERSON BY THE NAME OF RON SHIPP?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG YOU HAD KNOWN RON SHIPP BEFORE THAT DATE?
A I'D SAY ABOUT THREE YEARS. I MET HIM AT A THANKSGIVING DINNER.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THREE YEARS PRIOR TO 1994?
A RIGHT.
Q AND SO YOU HAD SEEN HIM ON OCCASIONS BEFORE THIS PARTICULAR DATE, IS THAT CORRECT, THE JUNE DATE?
A RIGHT. RIGHT.
Q WHAT WAS MR. RON SHIPP DOING WHEN YOU SAW HIM ON JUNE 13TH, 1994?
A HE WAS GOING TO PLAY TENNIS ON THE TENNIS COURT.
Q WAS THIS AT SOME EARLIER TIME?
A RIGHT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, LET'S GO BACK TO THE DATE WHEN YOU CAME DOWN HERE AFTER YOU FOUND OUT THAT NICOLE HAD -- NICOLE SIMPSON HAD BEEN KILLED.
WHAT WAS HE DOING THAT DAY INSIDE THE HOUSE WHEN YOU WERE SITTING WITH O.J. ON THE COUCH?
A HE WAS -- HE WAS SITTING AT THE BAR.
Q DID YOU OBSERVE HIM AT THE BAR?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE HIM DRINK ANYTHING AT THE BAR?
A HE HAD A CAN IN HIS HAND.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF CAN IT WAS?
A APPEARED TO BE A BEER CAN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO LOOK AT HIM AND LOOK AT HIS FACE ON THAT DATE?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT HIS FACE?
A HE APPEARED TO BE SPACED.
Q WHAT WAS THAT WORD AGAIN?
A WELL, HE --
Q "SPACED" DID YOU SAY?
A I WOULD SAY SPACED.
Q WHAT DO YOU MEAN --
A HE DIDN'T APPEAR NATURAL.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND HAD YOU EVER HAD OCCASION TO LOOK IN HIS FACE BEFORE?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q AND THE LOOK THAT HE HAD IN HIS FACE ON THIS DATE, WAS THAT WHAT -- HAD YOU SEEN THAT LOOK BEFORE EVER?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q ON OTHER TIMES WHEN YOU HAD SEEN HIM, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIM ON OTHER OCCASIONS WHEN HE HAD BEEN DRINKING?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q DID HE LOOK -- ON THE OTHER TIME YOU SAW HIM DRINKING, DID HE LOOK LIKE HE LOOKED ON THIS DATE, JUNE 13TH, 1994?
A NOT QUITE AS BAD, BUT HE ALWAYS APPEARED TO BE KIND OF STARY.
Q HOW?
A HE WOULD STARE IN SPACE.
Q STARING IN SPACE.
THIS DATE ON JUNE 13TH WAS WORSE THAN THE OTHER TIMES. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
A RIGHT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU OBSERVED HIM AND YOU SAW HIM LOOK LIKE THIS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A RIGHT.
Q NOW, MA'AM, DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOUR SON GOT UP TO LEAVE THE FAMILY ROOM WHERE YOU WERE SEATED WITH HIM? DO YOU REMEMBER THAT, THAT HE GOT UP TO GO SOMEPLACE?
A YES.
Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS GOING AT THAT POINT?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. SPECULATION.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M ASKING IF SHE KNOWS.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR SON WAS GOING AT THAT POINT?
A HE WAS GOING UPSTAIRS TO GO TO BED.
Q IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU SUGGESTED TO HIM?
A RIGHT.
Q AND HE -- WHEN HE GOT UP TO GO UPSTAIRS TO GO TO BED, DID HE SAY ANYTHING TO YOU?
A YES. HE SAYS --
Q NOT -- YOU CAN JUST TELL ME YES OR NO ON THAT QUESTION.
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID HE DO ANYTHING, DID HE TOUCH YOU OR HUG YOU OR ANYTHING WHEN HE LEFT?
A YES, HE DID.
Q WHAT DID HE DO?
A HE EMBRACED ME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND THEN DID HE THEN LEAVE YOUR PRESENCE?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU SEE HIM ANYMORE AT ALL THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT OF JUNE 13TH AFTER THAT?
A NO.
Q DID YOU SEE HIM LEAVE WITH ANYONE ELSE WHEN HE LEFT AT THAT POINT, IF YOU KNOW?
A NO.
Q YOU JUST SAW HIM LEAVE YOUR SIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A RIGHT.
Q NOW, MISS SIMPSON, I NOTICE THAT WHEN YOU WERE WALKING UP, YOU WERE ASSISTED ON TO THE WITNESS STAND. DO YOU HAVE SOME PARTICULAR CONDITION THAT AFFECTS YOUR ABILITY TO WALK?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT IS THAT CONDITION?
A RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS.
Q AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU HAD THAT?
A I'VE HAD IT FOR -- SINCE 1974 I WAS DIAGNOSED.
Q NOW, DO OTHER MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY HAVE THAT CONDITION?
A OH, YES.
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: DO OTHER MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY HAVE THAT CONDITION?
A YES.
Q WHAT OTHER MEMBERS HAVE THAT CONDITION?
A MY FATHER, MY SIS -- MY TWO SISTERS AND CARMELITA.
Q WHAT ABOUT O.J. SIMPSON?
A O.J. MOST OF ALL.
Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN AWARE THAT O.J. HAD THAT CONDITION?
A OH, SINCE 1980.
Q AND YOU BECAME AWARE THAT HE HAD IT ALSO, THAT HE HAD RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS?
A YES.
Q SO IT'S SOMETHING IN YOUR FAMILY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A IT DOES.
Q HAVE YOU SEEN A DOCTOR FOR YOUR CONDITION?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE
DEFENDANT.)
MR. COCHRAN: A FEW MORE QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.
I'M SORRY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, I ASKED YOU A QUESTION ABOUT SEEING A DOCTOR FOR YOUR CONDITION.
HAVE YOU HAD SOMETHING DONE REGARDING YOUR KNEES BECAUSE OF THE ARTHRITIC CONDITION?
A YES.
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: I WILL LINK IT UP, YOUR HONOR. WILL BE VERY BRIEF. I'LL LINK IT UP.
MR. DARDEN: IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS. COUPLE MORE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO -- WHAT CONDITION -- WHAT HAVE YOU HAD DONE TO YOUR KNEES?
A IMPLANTS.
Q YOU HAD YOUR KNEES REPLACED?
A RIGHT.
Q IS THAT AS A RESULT OF THIS RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIC CONDITION?
A I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
Q IS THAT AS A RESULT OF THE CONDITION THAT YOU HAVE OF RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS?
A YES, IT DID.
Q AND WHEN DID YOU HAVE THE SURGERY TO HAVE YOUR KNEES IMPLANTED?
A THE LEFT ONE IN '83 AND THE RIGHT ONE IN '85.
Q AND YOU SAW A DOCTOR IN SAN FRANCISCO, DID YOU?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING WITH US TODAY, MISS SIMPSON.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE NO QUESTIONS FOR MRS. SIMPSON.
THANK YOU, MA'AM.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MRS. SIMPSON.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, IF WE'RE GOING TO GO TO 5:00, THEN I SHOULD GET ANOTHER WITNESS DOWN?
THE COURT: YES, PLEASE.
MR. SHAPIRO, MISS CLARK.
MR. SHAPIRO: MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR, FOR A MOMENT?
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
MR. SHAPIRO: OUR NEXT WITNESS IS MISS CAROL CONNOR, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
WHILE WE'RE WAITING, LET ME SEE COUNSEL WITH THE COURT REPORTER OVER AT THE SIDEBAR.
MR. COCHRAN.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: WE'RE OVER AT THE SIDEBAR.
THE ISSUE IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A GOOD FAITH BELIEF OR CAUSE TO ASK QUESTIONS OF ARNELLE SIMPSON REGARDING THE TRIP WITH PAULA BARBIERI AND THE DEFENDANT TO HAWAII SOMETIME IN '93, '94, AND THE COURT MAKES REFERENCE TO THE TRANSCRIPT AT PAGE 20444 STARTING AT PAGE -- EXCUSE ME -- LINE 24 AND GOING OVER TO 20445 ENDING AT LINE 8.
I FIND THERE WAS A GOOD FAITH BASIS FOR ASKING THE QUESTION.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
MR. SHAPIRO: MAY WE ALSO JUST FOR THE RECORD ASK YOU TO REFER TO MY CROSS-EXAMINATION ON THAT QUESTION?
THE COURT: YES. I ALSO LOOKED AT PAGE 30 WHERE I OVERRULED THE OBJECTIONS TO YOUR QUESTIONS.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU.
MR. COCHRAN: OFF THE RECORD.
(A DISCUSSION WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
MR. SHAPIRO, NEXT WITNESS, PLEASE.
MR. SHAPIRO: MISS CONNOR, PLEASE.
CAROL CONNOR,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENDANT, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: MISS CONNOR, STEP OVER HERE, STAND OVER NEXT TO THE COURT REPORTER AND FACE THE CLERK, PLEASE.
ALL RIGHT.
RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, FACE THE CLERK.
THE CLERK: YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT ON THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS CONNOR, WOULD YOU PULL THE MICROPHONE CLOSE TO YOU, PLEASE?
MR. SHAPIRO.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS CONNOR.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q HOW ARE YOU?
A I'M OKAY.
Q A LITTLE NERVOUS?
A A LOT NERVOUS.
Q WELL, WE ASK YOU JUST TO RELAX, AND I HAVE JUST A FEW QUESTIONS FOR YOU.
A OKAY.
Q AT SOME POINT IN TIME, HAVE YOU BECOME ACQUAINTED WITH MY CLIENT, MR. O.J. SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q AND FOR HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN ACQUAINTED WITH HIM?
A WELL, I MET O.J. ABOUT IN 1980 I THINK.
Q AND WOULD YOU DESCRIBE FROM 1980 TO TODAY HOW YOU WOULD CHARACTERIZE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM?
A UMM, AN ACQUAINTANCE.
Q AND HAVE YOU HAD AN OCCASION TO OBSERVE HIS DEMEANOR?
A YES. AT MANY DIFFERENT EVENTS AND FUNCTIONS.
Q AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM IN PERSON PRIOR TO TODAY?
A JUNE 11TH, 1994.
Q AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT DATE AND WHERE WAS IT?
A HOW COULD I NOT KNOW THAT DATE?
IT WAS AT A $25,000 DINNER PARTY FOR THE SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER HONORING MADAME JIHAN SADAT AND FIRST LADY, PRIME MINISTER'S WIFE, LEAH RABIN, AND IT WAS IN BELL AIR, IT WAS A PRIVATE PARTY GIVEN BY THE ELLIS' AT THEIR ESTATE.
Q NOW, I NOTICE YOU HAVE SOMEWHAT EXTRAORDINARY VEST ON. DOES IT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR PROFESSION?
A I'M A SONG WRITER.
Q AND IS THERE ANY SONGS THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT PERHAPS THE JURY WOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH?
A WELL, I HOPE. THEY WOULD KNOW THE THEME FROM ROCKY BECAUSE I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO COWRITE THAT WITH BILL CONTY AND ANN ROBBINS AND --
Q MANY OTHERS? MANY, MANY OTHERS?
A SOME, YES.
Q NOW, ON THE OCCASION OF --
THE COURT: DON'T YOU KNOW THAT IN FACT THAT WAS NOMINATED FOR AN ACADEMY AWARD?
THE WITNESS: SHOULD I SAY IT?
THE COURT: IT WAS, CORRECT?
THE WITNESS: WE WERE NOMINATED FOR AN OSCAR. AND MAY I MAKE ONE OTHER STATEMENT?
THE COURT: NO. THAT'S FINE.
THE WITNESS: WE LOST TO BARBARA STREISAND.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: NOW, AT THIS EVENT, DID YOU SEE O.J. SIMPSON THERE?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID YOU SEE HIM IN THE ACCOMPANIMENT OF ANYONE?
A HE WAS WITH PAULA -- I HAVE A SLIGHT SPEECH IMPEDIMENT, BUT --
Q LET ME TRY TO HELP YOU WITH IT. BARBIERI?
A BARBIERI.
Q AND DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO OBSERVE THEM DURING THE EVENING?
A YES, I DID.
WHEN O.J. WALKED IN, I HAD ALREADY BEEN THERE. AND HE AND PAULA WALKED IN, AND HE SAW ME STANDING THERE, AND I WAVED TO HIM. AND HE LEFT PAULA STANDING ON THE STEP AND HE CAME TOWARDS ME AND HE PUT HIS ARMS AROUND ME AND HE SAID, "OH, YOU LOOK --"
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. NARRATIVE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
NEXT QUESTION.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: YES.
AND WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT HE SAID TO YOU?
A HE SAID --
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO OBSERVE HIS MOOD?
A YES, I DID.
Q WHAT WAS HIS MOOD LIKE?
A WELL, HE WAS WONDERFUL. HE WAS KIND.
I ASKED HIM TO TAKE A PICTURE WITH SOME LADIES. HE COULDN'T HAVE BEEN NICER TO EVERYBODY THERE, TO THE THREE LADIES AND MYSELF. I SPOKE WITH HIM FOR A WHILE.
Q AND DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO SEE HOW HE INTERACTED WITH PAULA, THE LADY HE WAS WITH?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND DID YOU FORM ANY OBSERVATIONS REGARDING THE WAY HE WAS INTERACTING WITH PAULA?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. ANSWER THE QUESTION.
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: YOU MAY ANSWER THAT.
A COULD YOU ASK IT AGAIN?
Q YES.
DID YOU FORM ANY OPINIONS -- DID YOU HAVE ANY VIEW AS TO HOW HE WAS RELATING WITH PAULA? DID THEY -- HOW DID THEY SEEM TOGETHER?
A WELL, I HAPPENED TO WITNESS OR I HAPPENED TO SEE A VERY EXQUISITE ROMANTIC MOMENT THAT TOOK PLACE BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM. AND BEING A WRITER, I WAS ABLE TO COMPUTE IT INTO MY BRAIN AND TO UNDERSTAND IT AND TO WISH THAT I HAD BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE IN A SITUATION OF WHAT I HAD WATCHED.
Q DID O.J. APPEAR ANY DIFFERENTLY, ANY DIFFERENT ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 11TH THAN HE HAD ON THE PRIOR OCCASIONS THAT YOU HAD SEEN HIM THROUGHOUT THE YEARS SINCE 1980?
A ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Q NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT A PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN.
MR. SHAPIRO: I HAVE PREVIOUSLY SHOWN THIS TO COUNSEL AND IT WAS USED IN THE OPENING STATEMENT. MR. DOUGLAS IS GOING TO PUT IT UP ON THE BOARD HERE.
MR. DARDEN: HAS THAT BEEN MARKED, YOUR HONOR?
MR. SHAPIRO: WE'RE GOING TO MARK THAT AS DEFENDANT'S 1247 WITH THE COURT'S PLEASURE.
THE COURT: HOW ABOUT 1227?
MR. DARDEN: I OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS IRRELEVANT. THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
(DEFT'S 1227 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)
Q BY MR. SHAPIRO: CAN YOU IDEN -- IS THIS THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT YOU ALLUDED TO?
A I THINK THAT'S ME.
Q AND DID YOU PROVIDE THAT TO US --
A YES, I DID.
Q -- IN A SMALLER VERSION --
A YES, I DID.
Q -- WHICH I HAVE HERE?
AND WOULD YOU IDENTIFY THIS -- WILL YOU TELL US ABOUT HOW THAT PHOTOGRAPH CAME TO BE TAKEN?
A WELL, WE HAD BEEN TALKING AND O.J. AND I WERE TALKING ABOUT OUR ABYSSINIAN CATS AND HE TOLD ME THAT THEY HAD PASSED AWAY. AND IN THE COURSE OF THE CONVERSATION, I ASKED HIM HOW NICOLE WAS, AND HE SAID SHE'S FINE.
AND THERE WAS A PHOTOGRAPHER STANDING OVER THERE, AND I SAID, "WOULD YOU MIND TAKING A PICTURE WITH ALL THESE LITTLE LADIES," BECAUSE ONE OF THEM IS MY HEIGHT, FRANCIS BRODY, AND THEY WERE ALL SORT OF A TITHER, YOU KNOW, OHHH. AND I SAID, "WOULD YOU MIND TAKING THIS PICTURE? IT WOULD REALLY BE WONDERFUL AND I KNOW THEY WOULD APPRECIATE IT."
AND O.J. SAID, "NOT AT ALL, CAROL."
SO THE PHOTOGRAPHER PETER WAS STANDING THERE, AND I SAID, "PETER, WOULD YOU MIND TAKING THIS PICTURE?" AND HE SAID, "NO," AND HE SAID, "I'D LOVE TO TAKE IT."
SO HE TOOK THE PICTURE OF US AND THAT WAS THE PICTURE. I DON'T KNOW THE OTHER TWO LADIES. THEY WERE JUST IN THE PICTURE. BUT FRANCIS IS A MEMBER OF SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER AS I AM, AND IT WAS JUST A REALLY FUN MOMENT.
Q HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE AT THIS EVENT?
A UMM, I DON'T KNOW. I THINK AROUND -- I THINK AROUND 300. IT WAS A VERY RENAISSANCE EVENING AND NATALIE COLE WAS PERFORMING. IT WAS QUITE BEAUTIFUL.
Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE AMOUNT WAS TO COME TO THIS CHARITY, WHAT THE CHARGE WAS?
A UMM, I WAS A GUEST OF THE EVENT, BUT IT WAS A $25,000 A COUPLE DINNER, AND IT WAS TO RAISE MONEY, AS I SAID, FOR THE SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER.
Q AND WAS IT A SUCCESSFUL EVENT IN YOUR OPINION?
A VERY. I MEAN, IT'S THE NON-SECULAR HOSPITAL OF ISRAEL.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU.
NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. DARDEN:
Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS CONNOR.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q IT IS MISS, CORRECT?
A MS.
Q MS.
OKAY.
YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAD SEEN THE DEFENDANT WHAT; 8 OR 10 TIMES PRIOR?
A MAYBE ABOUT OVER THE YEARS.
Q OKAY.
AND EACH TIME YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT, YOU SAW HIM AT DIFFERENT EVENTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q YOU SAW HIM IN PUBLIC?
A YES.
Q YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM AT HOME, DID YOU?
A NO.
Q YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM AT HOME WHEN HE WAS MARRIED TO NICOLE BROWN, DID YOU?
A NOT AT THEIR HOME, BUT I SAW THEM TOGETHER, YES.
Q DID YOU EVER SPEND THE NIGHT IN HIS HOME WHILE HE WAS MARRIED TO NICOLE BROWN?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
MOST OF THE CONTACTS THAT YOU HAD WITH THE DEFENDANT WERE AT CHARITY EVENTS?
A THEY WERE AT EVENTS OR FUNCTIONS, YES.
Q LIKE THE SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER?
A THAT'S ONE OF THEM, YES.
Q OKAY.
THE SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER IS IN BELL AIR?
A NO. THE SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER IS IN ISRAEL. IT IS THE NON-SECULAR HOSPITAL IN THE MIDDLE EAST. THE EVENT TOOK PLACE AT THE ELLIS' HOME.
Q OKAY.
AND WHO ARE THE ELLIS'?
A THEY ARE A COUPLE THAT LIVES IN BELL AIR, VERY PHILANTHROPIC. THEY OWN FOLLY'S CHOCOLATE, AND THEY GAVE THE PARTY AT THEIR HOME.
Q OKAY.
SO AT THIS FUNCTION, THEN THERE WERE CORPORATE EXECUTIVES?
A THERE WERE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
Q ACTORS?
A EXCUSE ME?
Q WERE THERE ACTORS ALSO AT THIS GATHERING?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
POLITICIANS?
A YES.
Q WAS THERE MEDIA THERE?
A YES.
Q AND THE DEFENDANT, I SUPPOSE YOU KNEW THAT HE WAS AN ACTOR; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q OKAY.
AND YOU ALSO KNEW THAT HE MADE MONEY DOING COMMERCIALS AND VIDEOS FOR DIFFERENT COMPANIES?
A I THINK EVERYBODY KNEW THAT, YES.
Q AND THIS FUNCTION WAS A PERFECT KIND OF FUNCTION FOR ONE TO MAKE BUSINESS CONTACTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. BEYOND THE SCOPE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: DOES THAT MEAN I ANSWER IT?
THE COURT: YOU CAN ANSWER IT.
THE WITNESS: COULD YOU ASK IT AGAIN, PLEASE?
Q BY MR. DARDEN: THIS TYPE OF FUNCTION WITH THE SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER WAS THE PERFECT KIND OF FUNCTION IN WHICH SOMEONE COULD MAKE SOME BUSINESS CONTACTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A I THINK THE WORD IS NETWORKING TODAY. YES.
Q WAS THE DEFENDANT NETWORKING?
A I DID NOT SEE THAT.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS NETWORKING?
A I DID NOT SEE THAT.
Q OKAY.
WELL, DID YOU SAY THAT PRIME MINISTER SADAT'S WIFE WAS PRESENT?
A LEAH RABIN WAS THERE. SHE WAS BEING GIVEN AN AWARD BY KIRK DOUGLAS AND SO WAS MADAME JIHAN SADAT. THEY WERE BOTH BEING PRESENTED WITH AN AWARD THAT NIGHT.
Q AND WOULD YOU SAY THAT JUST ABOUT EVERYONE AT THE FUNCTION WAS ON THEIR BEST BEHAVIOR?
A I THINK EVERYBODY WAS ENJOYING THEMSELVES, YES.
Q OKAY.
THE DEFENDANT'S WEARING A TUXEDO IN THE PHOTOGRAPH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A EVERYBODY WAS WEARING A TUXEDO THAT WAS A GUY.
Q OKAY.
CAN YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT'S LEFT HAND IN THE PHOTOGRAPH THERE?
A DO YOU WANT ME TO --
Q PLEASE.
A THIS IS HIS RIGHT HAND, RIGHT?
SORT OF.
NO, I DON'T SEE IT. I DON'T SEE IT.
Q DID YOU SHAKE HANDS WITH THE DEFENDANT THAT NIGHT?
A YES, I DID.
Q DID YOU HOLD HIS HAND AFTER YOU SHOOK IT?
A NO. I SHOOK IT JUST LIKE I WOULD SHAKE YOUR HAND.
Q OKAY.
YOU SHOOK HIS RIGHT HAND?
A I THINK SO. MY MOTHER ALWAYS TAUGHT ME TO --
Q DID YOU SEE HIS LEFT HAND?
A I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION TO HIS HANDS.
Q OKAY.
YOU DIDN'T SEE A CUT ON HIS LEFT HAND THAT NIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q AND THE FUNCTION ENDED AT AROUND 11:00 P.M.?
A SOMEWHERE -- YEAH, SOMEWHERE AROUND THAT TIME.
Q OKAY.
AND UP UNTIL 11:00 P.M. THAT NIGHT, YOU DIDN'T SEE A CUT ON THE DEFENDANT'S HAND, DID YOU?
A I DIDN'T EVEN PAY ATTENTION TO HIS HANDS. BUT NO, I DID NOT SEE A CUT.
Q WAS THE DEFENDANT BLEEDING AT ALL THAT NIGHT?
A NOT THAT I KNOW OF, NO.
Q NOW, YOU CAN'T SEE THE DEFENDANT'S SHOES IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH EITHER, CAN YOU?
A NO, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GO DOWN TO HIS FEET.
Q NOW, YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE SOMEONE'S GUEST AT THIS EVENT; IS THAT CORRECT?
A UH-HUH.
Q IS THAT YES?
A I'M SORRY. EXCUSE ME. YES.
Q OKAY.
SO YOU DIDN'T PAY $25,000?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q AND THERE WERE OTHER GUESTS AT THE EVENT?
A YES, THERE WERE.
Q THERE WERE OTHER GUESTS THAT DIDN'T PAY $25,000?
A I'M SURE SOME DID AND SOME DIDN'T. I DON'T KNOW.
Q DID THEY HAVE SOMETHING AT THE EVENT CALLED A CELEBRITY INVITE OR A CELEBRITY INVITATION?
A UMM, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
Q WELL, WERE THERE CERTAIN CELEBRITIES INVITED TO THE FUNCTION WHO WERE NOT REQUIRED TO PAY THE $25,000?
A I WOULD THINK SO, YES.
Q OKAY.
AND DO YOU KNOW WHO THOSE PEOPLE WERE?
A NO.
Q YOU DIDN'T HANDLE THE FINANCIAL ASPECT?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
ARE YOU ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF SHEBA?
A I'M INVOLVED. I DON'T KNOW IF I'M -- I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THEIR STATIONERY BECAUSE I'M VERY INVOLVED WITH SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER. IT'S SOMETHING I BELIEVE IN.
I THINK I'M ON THE BOARD -- BUT I DON'T GET INVOLVED IN ANY OF THAT. I HAVE LENT MY NAME TO THE HOSPITAL BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN THE HOSPITAL.
Q WELL, IF YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS, YOU WOULD HAVE SOME INPUT INTO HOW THE CHARITY WAS RUN; IS THAT CORRECT?
A NO.
Q OKAY.
YOU WOULD GO TO DIRECTORS' MEETINGS?
A I NEVER GO TO A MEETING.
Q HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING?
A ONE. IT WAS FOR THE WOMEN'S -- THE WOMEN'S AUXILIARY. I WENT TO ONE MEETING.
Q OKAY.
BUT YOU'RE NOT SURE WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE A MEMBER OF THE BOARD?
A I KNOW THIS SOUNDS REALLY SILLY, BUT I AM ON A LOT OF THINGS THAT I BELIEVE IN AND I HAVE GIVEN MY NAME TO THE CHARITY BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN IT. I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE DAY TO DAY RUNNING OF THE CHARITY.
Q DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT SPEAK WITH THE PRESS THAT NIGHT AT THAT FUNCTION?
A I WAS STANDING INSIDE AND THERE WAS LIKE AN AREA WHERE MADAME SADAT AND EVERYONE WAS STANDING WITH THE FLAGS AND YOU WOULD WALK IN. I WALKED IN OBVIOUSLY BEFORE O.J. AND PAULA. SO I -- I HAD ALREADY BEEN IN THE PARTY. SO I DIDN'T SEE THAT, NO. I'M SURE IT DID, BUT I DIDN'T SEE IT.
Q OKAY.
WELL, YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US THE DEFENDANT'S DEMEANOR THE NIGHT OF THE 11TH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THE NIGHT OF THE 11TH?
Q YES.
A YES.
Q HOW ABOUT THE NIGHT OF THE 12TH? DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT AROUND 10:20 ON THE NIGHT OF THE 12TH?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q DID YOU SPEAK TO HIM AT THAT TIME?
A NO, I DID NOT.
Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT THAT TIME?
A NO, I DO NOT.
MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU.
THAT'S ALL.
THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, ANYTHING FURTHER?
MR. SHAPIRO: ONLY FOR THE RECORD TO MARK THIS PHOTOGRAPH AS A.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
ACTUALLY WHY DON'T WE USE THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
MR. SHAPIRO: USE THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
THE COURT: YES.
MR. SHAPIRO: OKAY.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.
NOTHING FURTHER.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS CONNOR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. YOU'RE EXCUSED.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, JUDGE ITO.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, DO YOU WANT TO CALL ANOTHER WITNESS?
THE COURT: WE'RE BURNING DAYLIGHT.
DO WE HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM?
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK THERE IS. MAY I CHECK?
THE COURT: PLEASE CHECK.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
WE WOULD ASK LEAVE OF THE COURT TO CALL MISS MARY COLLINS TO THE STAND.
MARY COLLINS,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENDANT, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS COLLINS, WOULD YOU STAND RIGHT NEXT TO THE COURT REPORTER HERE, FACE THE CLERK.
THE CLERK: RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND, PLEASE.
YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: YES.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT ON THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE COURT: CAN YOU STATE AND SPELL YOUR NAME, PLEASE.
THE WITNESS: OH. MARY COLLINS, M-A-R-Y C-O-L-L-I-N-S.
THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS COLLINS.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q AND, MISS COLLINS, WHAT IS YOUR OCCUPATION?
A I'M AN INTERIOR DESIGNER.
Q AND FOR HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE BUSINESS OF INTERIOR DESIGN?
A ABOUT 25 YEARS.
Q AND HAVE YOU OPERATED LOCALLY IN THIS -- IN THE AREA OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA?
A YES.
Q NOW --
THE COURT: MISS COLLINS, IF YOU COULD JUST PULL THE MICROPHONE A LITTLE CLOSER TO YOU, PLEASE.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, COULD WE TAKE THAT PICTURE DOWN NOW?
THE COURT: YES.
MS. CLARK: WANT ME TO DO IT?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
JUST PUT IT OVER HERE ON THE SIDE, PLEASE.
ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN, PROCEED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: I THINK WE'VE JUST ESTABLISHED THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE INTERIOR DESIGN BUSINESS FOR ABOUT THE LAST 25 YEARS?
A THAT'S RIGHT.
Q IN THIS GENERAL AREA?
A YES.
Q I'D LIKE TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE GENTLEMAN AT THE FAR END OF COUNSEL TABLE THERE.
DO YOU KNOW MR. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON?
A YES, I DO.
Q AND ABOUT HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN HIM?
A I THINK ABOUT 20 YEARS.
Q AND HAVE YOU OVER THE COURSE OF THE TIME YOU'VE KNOWN O.J. SIMPSON EVER HAD OCCASION TO WORK FOR HIM?
A YES.
Q AND IN WHAT CAPACITY DID YOU WORK FOR HIM?
A I DESIGNED THREE OF HIS OFFICES.
Q THESE ARE HIS OFFICES THAT HE HAD AT VARIOUS TIMES DURING HIS CAREER; IS THAT RIGHT?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN YOU SAY "DESIGNED THEM," WHAT DID YOU DO FOR HIM? WHAT DID YOU DO FOR THEM?
A I DID THE INTERIOR DESIGN.
Q AND WERE YOU PAID FOR THOSE SERVICES?
A YES.
Q NOW, ARE YOU PRESENTLY MARRIED?
A YES.
Q AND ARE YOU WITH YOUR HUSBAND?
A YES.
Q AND WERE YOU FORMERLY MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE?
A NO.
Q TO A DIFFERENT PERSON?
ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU -- WHAT IS YOUR HUSBAND'S NAME?
A ROGER COLLINS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WERE YOU FORMERLY -- IS YOUR SISTER-IN-LAW CATHY RANDA, MR. SIMPSON'S EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT?
A YES. SHE WAS MY SISTER-IN-LAW.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SHE WAS YOUR SISTER-IN-LAW, A FORMER HUSBAND?
A SHE WAS MY BROTHER'S WIFE, BUT THEY'VE BEEN DIVORCED FOR ABOUT 27 YEARS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW WE GOT IT. SHE WAS YOUR BROTHER'S WIFE?
A UH-HUH.
Q THEY HAD BEEN DIVORCED; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES. UH-HUH.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE INTERIOR DESIGN JOBS THAT YOU DID FOR MR. SIMPSON, CAN YOU TELL US IN WHAT LOCATION THOSE OFFICES WERE JUST GENERALLY?
A TWO WERE IN BRENTWOOD AND ONE WAS AT COLOMBIA STUDIOS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE WEEK OF JUNE 6TH, 1994.
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT WEEK?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO MEET WITH MR. O.J. SIMPSON SOMETIME DURING THAT PARTICULAR WEEK?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND WHAT DATE DID YOU MEET WITH HIM?
A I BELIEVE THAT WAS JUNE 6TH.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WAS THAT ON A MONDAY IF YOU RECALL?
A I THINK IT WAS ON A MONDAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHERE DID YOU MEET WITH MR. SIMPSON ON THAT DATE?
A I MET WITH HIM AT HIS HOME.
Q AND HIS HOME IS ON ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHY WERE YOU AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION?
A TO DISCUSS REDECORATING HIS BEDROOM SUITE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
WAS THIS NOW A REQUEST OR SOMETHING THAT HE HAD MADE FOR YOU TO COME TO THE HOME?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE LOCATION, YOU HAD OCCASION TO MEET WITH MR. SIMPSON; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q DID YOU MEET WITH ANYONE ELSE AT THAT TIME?
A YES.
Q AND WHO WAS THAT?
A THERE WAS PAULA BARBIERI, KATO KAELIN AND THERE WAS SOMEONE ELSE. I CAN'T REMEMBER WHO THAT WAS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
A AND I HAD MY ASSOCIATE JILL HALL WITH ME.
Q YOU HAD ANOTHER LADY WITH YOU?
A YES.
Q AND AT THE HOUSE WAS PAULA BARBIERI AND MR. SIMPSON; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND KATO KAELIN WAS THERE?
A YES.
Q I PRESUME THAT KATO KAELIN WAS NOT GOING TO RETAIN YOUR SERVICES TO DECORATE MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE THOUGH, WAS HE?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
HE WAS JUST THERE AT THE HOUSE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU HAVE A MEETING WITH MR. SIMPSON WITH REGARD TO WHAT HE WANTED DONE TO HIS BEDROOM SUITE?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE DID THAT MEETING TAKE PLACE AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION?
A UPSTAIRS IN THE BEDROOM SUITE.
Q AND WHO WAS PRESENT DURING THIS PARTICULAR MEETING, IF YOU RECALL?
A PAULA, JILL AND O.J. AND MYSELF.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND IN THE COURSE OF THAT, DID YOU HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE THINGS THAT MR. SIMPSON WANTED DONE TO THE BEDROOM AND HOW HE WANTED IT CHANGED?
A YES.
Q HOW LONG DID THAT MEETING LAST IF YOU RECALL?
A SEEMED LIKE IT WAS ABOUT 45 MINUTES.
Q AND DID HE HAVE AN IDEA OF WHAT HE WANTED TO HAVE DONE?
A YES.
Q NOW, YOU HAD DEALT WITH HIM BEFORE WITH REGARD TO DECORATING HIS OFFICES, AND SO THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU WOULD HAVE DONE A JOB FOR HIM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT PAULA BARBIERI WAS ALSO PRESENT DURING THIS MEETING.
A UH-HUH. YES.
Q DID SHE PARTICIPATE AT ALL IN THIS 45-MINUTE DISCUSSION REGARDING WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE LOCATION THERE?
A YES, SHE DID.
Q AND HOW DID SHE PARTICIPATE?
A SHE WAS LOOKING AT SAMPLES OF THE CHOICES I BROUGHT AND THEY WERE DISCUSSING WITH EACH OTHER WHICH THEY PREFERRED, AND THEY SEEMED TO BE AGREEING PRETTY MUCH ON THE SAME THINGS.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU BROUGHT SOME SAMPLES -- I DIDN'T MEAN TO CUT YOU OFF. SOME SAMPLES?
A FABRIC SWATCHES, CARPET SAMPLES.
Q AND DOES IT WORK THAT YOU WOULD THEN SHOW THE FABRIC SAMPLES OR SWATCHES TO THE CLIENT?
A YES.
Q IS THAT CORRECT?
A UH-HUH.
Q AND THE CLIENT THEN MAKES SOME KIND OF CHOICE?
A YES.
Q IN THE COURSE OF THIS PROCESS, YOU SAW MISS PAULA BARBIERI ALSO INVOLVED IN THAT?
A YES.
Q NOW, AFTER THE 45 MINUTES, AFTER THE TIME HAD ELAPSED, DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO MAKE A PRESENTATION OR TO FULLY UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING THAT MR. SIMPSON WANTED DONE?
A WELL, I WAS PROPOSING AN IDEA THAT I HAD ABOUT REDESIGNING HIS ROOM, AND I TOLD HIM THAT I WOULD BE MAKING SKETCHES AND GETTING BIDS ON THIS IDEA THAT I HAD ABOUT TURNING THE BED AT AN ANGLE SO THAT HE COULD ENJOY THE FIREPLACE AND HAVE ENTERTAINMENT CENTER THAT HE WAS FACING RATHER THAN HAVING IT TO THE LEFT OF HIM. HE HAD A TELEVISION TO THE LEFT OF HIM.
SO THAT WAS AN IDEA THAT HE WAS CONSIDERING. AND PAULA HAD AN IDEA ABOUT PUTTING A CONSOLE AT THE FOOT OF THE BED THAT WOULD HOLD THE TELEVISION THAT COULD LIFT HYDRAULICALLY I GUESS TO HAVE AN ENTERTAINMENT CENTER AT THE FOOT OF THE BED. SHE WANTED ME TO SEE THIS UNIT THAT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT AT A HOTEL WHERE SHE HAD STAYED. SO WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
DID MISS BARBIERI HAVE ANY PARTICULAR REMARKS REGARDING THE BATHROOM?
A YES. SHE REALLY WANTED THAT CHANGED.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THIS ALL OCCURRED DURING THIS CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD?
A YES.
Q AND YOU SAY THAT ONE OF YOUR ASSOCIATES, MISS JILL HALL, WAS PRESENT DURING THIS MEETING ALSO?
A YES.
Q NOW, BY THE WAY, IF YOU RECALL, WHAT TIME OF DAY ON JUNE 6TH DID THIS MEETING TAKE PLACE?
A IT WAS LATE IN THE DAY. IT SEEMED LIKE IT WAS SOMETIME AFTER 6:30.
Q IN THE EVENING.
A YES.
Q IS THAT RIGHT?
A UH-HUH.
Q NOW, DO YOU RECALL WHERE MR. KATO KAELIN WAS IN THE HOUSE DURING THIS MEETING? WAS HE DOWNSTAIRS?
A UMM, HE WAS -- YES, IN THE TELEVISION VIEWING AREA. THAT'S WHERE THEY WERE WHEN WE WALKED IN.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WITH REGARD TO YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS AND MR. SIMPSON AND MISS BARBIERI'S DESIRES, YOU TALKED ABOUT VARIOUS THINGS. AND WHAT DID YOU AGREE AT THE END OF THE MEETING IF ANYTHING?
A THAT I WOULD BE GETTING BIDS AND THAT I WOULD TRY TO WORK IT OUT SO THAT WHAT I WAS DOING WOULDN'T INTERFERE WITH MR. SIMPSON'S SCHEDULE. SO I --
I SAID I WOULD DO ALL OF THAT SCHEDULING THROUGH THE OFFICE SO THAT NONE OF THIS WOULD BOTHER HIM AND THAT I WOULD BE SENDING HIM FAXES AND SAMPLES TO LOOK AT AND HOPEFULLY WE WOULD MEET AGAIN IF HE HAD THE TIME.
Q ALL RIGHT.
SO THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT HIS SCHEDULE, WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD BE IN TOWN OR NOT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU WERE AWARE THAT HE WAS ABOUT TO LEAVE TOWN?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: STRIKE THAT. COUNSEL IS CORRECT. LET ME RESTATE IT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: LET ME RESTATE THAT.
DID YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF MR. SIMPSON'S SCHEDULE DURING THAT PARTICULAR PERIOD OF TIME?
A NOT AT THAT PARTICULAR PERIOD OF TIME, BUT I KNOW THAT HE TRAVELS A LOT. SO --
Q AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? BASED UPON WHAT?
A MY PAST EXPERIENCES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
THE OTHER JOBS THAT YOU DID?
A YES.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
YOUR HONOR, IT'S NOW FIVE PAST 5:00 AND I DON'T THINK --
THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE MUCH MORE?
MR. COCHRAN: NOT MUCH MORE. SHALL I BE YOUR GUEST?
ALL RIGHT.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: SO BASED UPON THE PREVIOUS JOBS THAT YOU HAD DONE, YOU KNEW THAT HE TRAVELED QUITE A BIT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A UH-HUH. YES.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU TOLD US THIS MEETING LASTED ABOUT 45 MINUTES. AND AFTER YOU FINISHED THAT MEETING, DID IT TERMINATE AT SOME POINT?
A YES.
Q AND WAS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT OCCURRED DURING THE MEETING OR THE DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE TO DO THAT YOU HAVEN'T TOLD US ABOUT THUS FAR?
A NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF.
Q OKAY.
NOW, YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT MISS BARBIERI HAD SOME CONCERN ABOUT THE BATHROOM. WHAT DIDN'T SHE LIKE ABOUT THE BATHROOM IF YOU RECALL?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. RELEVANCY.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WELL, SHE DIDN'T CARE FOR THE WALLPAPER. SHE JUST DIDN'T REALLY LIKE THE STYLE OF IT. IT DIDN'T SEEM TO RELATE TO THE BEDROOM.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: WAS IT -- WAS IT -- NOW, WHICH BATHROOM WAS IT THAT SHE WAS PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT IF YOU RECALL?
A IT -- IT WAS PART OF THE MASTER BEDROOM, BUT IT WAS OFF -- AT THE END OF THE HALLWAY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WHOSE BATHROOM HAD THAT BEEN?
A NICOLE'S.
Q AND IS THAT A BATHROOM AREA THAT AS YOU WALK INTO THE BEDROOM, IT'S OFF TO THE LEFT?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND WERE YOU AWARE THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER BATHROOM THAT MR. SIMPSON USED PRIMARILY?
A YES.
Q MISS BARBIERI'S CONCERNS WERE DIRECTED TOWARDS THE BATHROOM AS YOU FIRST WALKED INTO THE ROOM; IS THAT RIGHT?
A THAT'S RIGHT.
Q NOW, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO DISCUSS BUDGET WITH MR. SIMPSON?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU ARRIVE AT A FIGURE OF WHAT THIS BUDGET FOR THIS WORK WOULD COST GENERALLY?
A YES.
Q AND THEREAFTER, DID -- WERE YOU PAID SOME SORT OF A RETAINER --
A YES, I WAS.
Q -- BY MR. SIMPSON OR HIS BUSINESS OFFICE?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT. AND --
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR -- COUNSEL?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE AT THIS POINT TO MARK I THINK IT'S DEFENDANT'S 1248.
THE COURT: I THINK 1228.
MR. COCHRAN: IS IT 28? ALL RIGHT.
I'LL PUT A 1228 IN THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER.
(DEFT'S 1228 FOR ID = CHECK)
THE COURT: AND I TAKE IT WE'RE ABOUT TO WIND IT UP WITH THIS?
MR. COCHRAN: I TAKE IT WE ARE, YOUR HONOR. YES, WE ARE.
THANK YOU.
MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS?
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
Q BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT PURPORTS TO BE A CHECK MADE PAYABLE TO COLLINS AND COLLINS IN THE AMOUNT OF $1,000 FROM O.J. SIMPSON, CARE OF LEROY B. TAFT, MADE PAYABLE TO COLLINS AND COLLINS, SIGNED APPARENTLY BY LEROY B. TAFT.
IS THAT A CHECK THAT YOU RECEIVED ON OR ABOUT JUNE 7TH OF 1994?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT DOES THAT CHECK PURPORTEDLY REPRESENT?
A IT WAS THE RETAINER TO START THE JOB.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.
THAT'S ALL I HAVE AT THIS POINT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
IS THAT ALL YOU HAVE?
MR. COCHRAN: AT THIS POINT, YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: NO. ARE YOU FINISHED?
MR. COCHRAN: YES, I'M FINISHED I THINK. I THINK I'M FINISHED.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: YOU WANT ME TO DO IT ALL NOW?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS COLLINS.
A GOOD AFTERNOON.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHEN YOU GOT THE CALL TO COME OVER AND DO THE MEETING WITH MR. SIMPSON AND PAULA?
A UH, I THINK IT WAS ABOUT A WEEK BEFORE I MET WITH HIM.
Q SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETIME AROUND MEMORIAL DAY?
A UMM, MAYBE IT WAS A LITTLE BEFORE MEMORIAL DAY.
Q JUST BEFORE THAT WEEKEND MAYBE?
A PROBABLY. I CAN'T REMEMBER FOR SURE.
Q OKAY.
BUT AROUND THAT TIME.
A I THINK SO.
Q OKAY.
IT WASN'T THAT DAY OR THE DAY BEFORE THAT, RIGHT?
A NO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WHEN YOU WERE IN THE -- IN THE BEDROOM, DID YOU LOOK AROUND, KIND OF GET ACQUAINTED WITH WHAT WAS ALREADY THERE SO YOU COULD GET SOME IDEAS ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO DO?
A YES. I HAD BEEN THERE BEFORE.
Q ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH THAT I'D LIKE TO SHOW YOU, A COUPLE OF THEM ACTUALLY.
MS. CLARK: I WOULD ASK THAT THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, YOUR HONOR, BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 491 AND 492.
THE COURT: 491 AND 492.
(PEO'S 491 AND 492 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPHS)
MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO SHOW THEM TO COUNSEL.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q BY MS. CLARK: YOU STATED YOU HAD BEEN AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION ON PREVIOUS OCCASIONS, CORRECT?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q AND WERE YOU EVER AT THAT LOCATION DURING THE TIME THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS MARRIED TO NICOLE BROWN?
A I DON'T BELIEVE SO.
Q SO WHEN HAD YOU BEEN THERE PRIOR TO THE DATE OF JUNE THE 6TH WHEN YOU MET WITH MR. SIMPSON AND PAULA?
A IT WAS -- I BELIEVE IT WAS RIGHT BEFORE HIS 45TH BIRTHDAY AND I THINK PAULA WAS PLANNING A PARTY FOR HIM, AND AT THAT TIME, WE WERE TRYING TO PUT THE HOUSE TOGETHER FOR THIS EVENT.
Q NOW, YOU SAID YOU HAD KNOWN THE DEFENDANT FOR 20 YEARS?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER MEET NICOLE BROWN?
A YES.
Q SO YOU KNEW WHO SHE WAS?
A YES.
Q AND WHEN YOU WERE IN THE DEFENDANT'S BEDROOM -- STRIKE THAT.
ON HIS 45TH BIRTHDAY, WAS THAT AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION AS WELL?
A YES.
Q AND DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO GO UP TO HIS BEDROOM AT THAT TIME?
A YES.
Q DID YOU SEE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS IN HIS BEDROOM AT THAT TIME?
A I MUST HAVE. I THINK I DID.
Q OKAY.
AND DID YOU SEE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE DEFENDANT WITH NICOLE BROWN IN HIS BEDROOM AT THAT TIME?
A I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.
Q OKAY.
IF I SHOWED YOU A PHOTOGRAPH, WOULD THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AND YOU COULD TELL US WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD EVER SEEN IT BEFORE?
A MAYBE SO.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. TIME FRAME, THERE'S NO FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
COULD YOU TELL US WHEN THAT WAS, THE 45TH BIRTHDAY?
A IT -- DID YOU JUST HAVE YOUR 47TH?
I DON'T KNOW. IT SEEMS LIKE IT WAS LIKE TWO YEARS AGO. COULD HAVE BEEN -- I THINK IT WAS ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO?
AND ON JUNE THE 6TH, WHEN YOU WERE THERE, DO YOU RECALL SEEING ANY PHOTOGRAPHS IN THE DEFENDANT'S BEDROOM?
A ON JUNE THE 6TH?
Q 1994. UH-HUH.
A IT SEEMS LIKE HE DOES HAVE A LOT OF PICTURES OF HIS FAMILY, YES.
Q AND DO YOU RECALL SEEING A PHOTOGRAPH OF HIM WITH NICOLE BROWN AT THAT TIME?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WHAT TIME ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
MS. CLARK: WE'RE ON JUNE 6TH.
THE WITNESS: UMM, I CAN'T SAY THAT I RECALL THAT.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IF I WERE TO SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH AND YOU COULD TELL US WHETHER YOU RECALL SEEING IT OR NOT?
A I -- YES.
MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S 491, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
JUST SHOW IT TO HER TO REFRESH HER RECOLLECTION.
THE WITNESS: I CAN'T SAY THAT THIS PICTURE LOOKS FAMILIAR TO ME.
Q BY MS. CLARK: YOU DON'T RECALL HAVING SEEN THAT?
A IT'S VERY SMALL. I CAN'T MAKE IT OUT TOO WELL. IS THAT HER IN A WEDDING DRESS?
THE COURT: THE ISSUE IS, DOES IT REFRESH HER RECOLLECTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DOES IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
A NO.
Q IT DOES NOT.
CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER OR NOT YOU RECALL SEEING THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
A I DON'T RECALL SEEING THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
Q YOU RECALL THAT THERE WERE PHOTOGRAPHS ON THE NIGHTSTAND, CORRECT?
A YES.
Q AND YOU DON'T RECALL SEEING THAT PHOTOGRAPH ON THE NIGHTSTAND?
A I DON'T RECALL THAT.
Q DID YOU LOOK UNDER THE BED?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. OBJECT.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU LOOK UNDER THE BED WHILE YOU WERE THERE?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
ACTUALLY NO.
AS PART OF THE JOB, DID YOU DO THAT?
THE WITNESS: NO. I -- I NEVER LOOKED UNDER THE BED.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DID YOUR ASSISTANT?
A NO.
Q SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE WAS ANYTHING UNDER THE BED THEN?
A NO.
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
ALL RIGHT.
IS THERE MUCH MORE?
MS. CLARK: NO. NOT MUCH MORE, YOUR HONOR.
THANK YOU.
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOW, ARE YOU IN THE HABIT OF HAVING -- STRIKE THAT.
ON JUNE THE 6TH, MA'AM, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT ABOUT THE NATURE OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH NICOLE BROWN OR THE NATURE OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH PAULA BARBIERI?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. THAT'S BEYOND THE SCOPE. OBJECT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MR. COCHRAN: ALSO COMPOUND.
THE COURT: IT IS.
REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q BY MS. CLARK: OKAY.
DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT ABOUT THE NATURE OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH NICOLE BROWN ON JUNE THE 6TH?
A NO. I DIDN'T HAVE A CONVERSATION LIKE THAT.
Q AND WERE YOU AWARE OF ANY CORRESPONDENCE HE HAD HAD WITH NICOLE BROWN ON JUNE THE 6TH, 1994?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
WERE YOU AWARE OF ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
THE WITNESS: I WAS NOT AWARE, NO.
Q BY MS. CLARK: HAVE YOU EVER REDECORATED FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DIVORCED ON PRIOR OCCASIONS?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: UMM, I JUST CAN'T RECALL OF DECORATING FOR ANYBODY THAT -- YOU MEAN THAT JUST GOT DIVORCED?
Q BY MS. CLARK: NOT JUST.
LET ME PUT IT A DIFFERENT WAY.
HAVE YOU EVER HAD THE EXPERIENCE THAT A NEW LOVER OR SPOUSE WILL COME IN AND WANT TO CHANGE THE HOUSE TO SUIT THEM?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: UMM, ACTUALLY NO, I DON'T THINK I EVER HAVE.
Q BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU KNOW WHOSE IDEA IT WAS TO REDECORATE THE BEDROOM, WHETHER IT WAS PAULA'S IDEA OR THE DEFENDANT'S IDEA INITIALLY?
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
THE COURT: IF YOU KNOW.
Q BY MS. CLARK: IF YOU KNOW.
A I DON'T KNOW.
Q AND THE BATHROOM THAT PAULA WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT AND WANTED TO CHANGE SO BADLY, THAT WAS NICOLE'S BATHROOM?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS, YES.
Q THE CHECK THAT --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: LET ME ASK YOU THIS, MA'AM.
WERE THE BEDROOM AND THE BATHROOM, THAT BATHROOM THAT PAULA WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT, THE ONLY ROOMS BEING CHANGED?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE WORD "COMPLAINING ABOUT."
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY.
COULD YOU REPEAT THAT?
Q BY MS. CLARK: SURE.
THE MASTER BEDROOM AND THE BATHROOM THAT PAULA DIDN'T LIKE, WERE THOSE THE ONLY TWO ROOMS THAT YOU WERE BEING ASKED TO CHANGE?
A NO.
Q WHAT ELSE WERE YOU?
A I WAS ASKED TO CHANGE JUSTIN'S ROOM AND A LITTLE SOMETHING FOR SIDNEY AND ALSO RECOVERING THE SOFAS IN THE TELEVISION VIEWING ROOM.
Q NOW, THE CHANGES THAT WERE REQUESTED IN SIDNEY AND JUSTIN'S ROOM, WERE THOSE MORE OR WERE THOSE MORE EXTENSIVE OR LESS EXTENSIVE THAN THE CHANGES REQUESTED IN THE MASTER BEDROOM AND NICOLE'S BATHROOM?
A NO, THEY WERE NOT MORE EXTENSIVE.
Q WERE THEY LESS EXTENSIVE?
A I MEAN, THEY WERE LESS EXTENSIVE.
Q MUCH LESS?
A UH, WELL, WE WANTED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE JUSTIN'S ROOM BECAUSE HE WAS A YOUNG BOY INSTEAD OF A BABY AND IT WAS A VERY BABYISH ROOM. SO THAT WAS GOING TO HAVE A BIG CHANGE. BUT NOTHING PROBABLY AS BIG AS THE MASTER SUITE.
Q UH-HUH.
AND WHO WERE YOU DISCUSSING THE CHANGES -- STRIKE THAT.
MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEYS.)
Q BY MS. CLARK: THE PERSON THAT SIGNED THE RETAINER CHECK, TAFT, DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT IS?
A YES, I DO.
Q WHO'S THAT?
A SKIP TAFT, O.J.'S ATTORNEY.
Q ARE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH HIM?
A PARDON?
Q ARE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH HIM?
A YES, I AM.
MS. CLARK: I HAVE HERE A LETTER, YOUR HONOR, THAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 25. I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW IT TO THE WITNESS.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY I SEE IT?
THE COURT: YES.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD
BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT
ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: NOPE.
MR. COCHRAN: SCOPE. I HAVE A SCOPE OBJECTION.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
MS. CLARK: YOU KNOW, DON'T YOU?
THE COURT: YES.
Q BY MS. CLARK: MAY I ASK IF YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT ON JUNE THE 12TH, MA'AM?
A NO, I DID NOT SEE THE DEFENDANT ON JUNE THE 12TH.
Q OKAY.
SO YOU DON'T KNOW IN WHAT MOOD HE WAS IN ON JUNE THE 12TH, DO YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S IRRELEVANT, BEYOND THE SCOPE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I HAVE NO IDEA.
Q BY MS. CLARK: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS WEARING ON JUNE THE 12TH, 1994?
MR. COCHRAN: BEYOND THE SCOPE.
THE COURT: THAT IS.
THE WITNESS: NO.
MR. COCHRAN: SUSTAINED.
I'M SORRY.
THE COURT: ANYTHING ELSE?
MS. CLARK: NO.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THANK YOU, MA'AM.
MR. COCHRAN: NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT.
MISS COLLINS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. YOU ARE EXCUSED.
ALL RIGHT.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE AFTERNOON.
PLEASE REMEMBER ALL MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU, DON'T ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU.
WE'LL STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 9:00 O'CLOCK TOMORROW MORNING.