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2002-03-26
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #861
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, March 27 2002 Volume 03 : Number 861
In this issue:
-
Re: solo guitar
Re: What is music?
Re: solo guitar
New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
What is music?
Re: What is music?
Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Re: What is music?
Re: What is music?
Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
wiper music
Re: What is music?
Re: wiper music
Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Re: wiper music
Re: wiper music
Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Re: wiper music
Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:42:34 -0500
From: Mark Saleski <marks@foliage.com>
Subject: Re: solo guitar
skip,
any recommendations for recordings? there's a ton of gary davis stuff out there.
>Gary Davis (also blind) was a huge influence on Fahey and just about any
>other fingerpicker worth naming (Bromberg leaps to mind). he had a kind of
>bastard ragtime style that defies description, and a rhythmic drive that
>still floors me (twenty-five years after I first heard him). He also had a
>voice that would scare Ray Charles. "Samson & Delilah" and "You Gotta Move"
>are pretty much definitive.
- --
Mark Saleski - marks@foliage.com | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:43:06 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= <houseofklang@yahoo.es>
Subject: Re: What is music?
> > ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my
> extremely broad question to
> > this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO
> YOU?
>
>------------------------------------------------
I think that is something that can stimulate you
through your ears.
Regards.R.
_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:57:02 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: solo guitar
on 3/27/02 11:42 AM, Mark Saleski at marks@foliage.com wrote:
>
> skip,
>
> any recommendations for recordings? there's a ton of gary davis stuff out
> there.
>
>
>> Gary Davis (also blind) was a huge influence on Fahey and just about any
>> other fingerpicker worth naming (Bromberg leaps to mind). he had a kind of
>> bastard ragtime style that defies description, and a rhythmic drive that
>> still floors me (twenty-five years after I first heard him). He also had a
>> voice that would scare Ray Charles. "Samson & Delilah" and "You Gotta Move"
>> are pretty much definitive.
The one on Prestige/OBC with "Samson & Delilah" (can't remember the name.
Have always had it as half a two-fer LP).
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:54:47 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Soon to be released:
The Willies.
This is Bill's characteristically inimitable and modern take on bluegrass
and country blues with Danny Barnes (from the Bad Livers) on banjo and
guitar and bassist Keith Lowe (known for his work in Fiona Apple's and David
Sylvian's bands and with Wayne Horvitz' "Zony Mash"). Recorded in Seattle
with engineer Tucker Martine, the CD features such traditional songs as
"Cluck Old Hen", "John Hardy", "Single Girl", "Sugar Baby", "Blackberry
Blossom", "Sitting on Top of the World", "Goodnight Irene" and "Cold, Cold
Heart" and, of course, original compositions by Frisell. The CD is scheduled
for release on Nonesuch in June, 2002.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:56:43 EST
From: Samerivertwice@aol.com
Subject: What is music?
Anything you can call music to your ears is music, whether it's the sound of
someone's voice, a Zorn duck call solo, a Mozart piano concerto, a dog's
bark, the buzz of an oil drill, or the Sex Pistols whining that they have no
feelings. Ear of the beholder.
Tom
______________________________________________________________________
Phil Spector: "I've been listening to a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber lately,
and enjoying it. Someday I hope to set his stuff to music."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:58:46 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: What is music?
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:43:06 +0100 (CET) =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= wrote:
>
>
> > > ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my
> > extremely broad question to
> > > this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO
> > YOU?
> >
> >------------------------------------------------
> I think that is something that can stimulate you
> through your ears.
Hum... That's opening a wide range of possibilities. I can see many
situations that are stimulating through my ears are and not at
all music :-).
Looking for starting a new business: personalized thesaurus (to make
everybody happy and leave nobody behind).
Chair: something that some people claim can be used to sit on.
Sky: piece of art made by the Creator.
Music: sounds qualified as improper for usage in Musique Concrete.
Color: visual illusion due to the limited spectral resolution of
human beings.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:06:44 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:54:47 +0000 "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> Soon to be released:
>
> The Willies.
>
> This is Bill's characteristically inimitable and modern take on bluegrass
> and country blues with Danny Barnes (from the Bad Livers) on banjo and
Darn! The new plague in music: avant-barnyard.
Waiting eagerly for Bill's project of reviving Django Reinhard.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:23:08 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <newgrange@sfo.com>
Subject: Re: What is music?
"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>=20
> Looking for starting a new business: personalized thesaurus (to make
> everybody happy and leave nobody behind).
So. What's the difference in process between a baked ham and a roast
pork?
Amazingly enough, many of us use the language without consulting
reference books at all.
- --=20
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
Jim Flannery =20
newgrange@sfo.com
"When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
I=92m almost always wrong."
-- Dwight Macdonald
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:23:27 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: What is music?
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:23:08 -0800 Jim Flannery wrote:
>
> "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
> >
> > Looking for starting a new business: personalized thesaurus (to make
> > everybody happy and leave nobody behind).
>
> So. What's the difference in process between a baked ham and a roast
> pork?
>
> Amazingly enough, many of us use the language without consulting
> reference books at all.
I guess your mastery of the language allows you that. I am not in your
situation (I check thesaurus quite often, both spelling and meaning).
But we (French) also have an Academy to control what is accepted and
what is not :-).
You should try to read A REBOURS by Joris Karl Huysmans. If you can
read two pages of it without a thesaurus handy, congratulations!
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:27:44 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
on 3/27/02 12:06 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:54:47 +0000 "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>> This is Bill's characteristically inimitable and modern take on bluegrass
>> and country blues with Danny Barnes (from the Bad Livers) on banjo and
>
> Darn! The new plague in music: avant-barnyard.
>
I smell anti-rural white bigotry somehow. I guess John Waters is right --
the only politically correct racial epithet is "white trash".
Also, Tony Rice has been dealing the materials in question for years, usinga
jazz/grass approach, so it might not be as avant as all that.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:25:53 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <ecstasymule@hotmail.com>
Subject: wiper music
If Skip,
having recognized the wiper sounds as musical, wanted to convey that
musicality to a friend, said, "Hey, listen to this cool rhythm track,"
and turned on the wipers, these sounds would change from being MUSICAL
to being MUSIC. The act of turning on the wipers is the act of
"organization of sounds and silences."
>>>
if skip's mom turns on the wipers on another trip to piano lesson, with skip
enjoying the rhythm but not saying anything to his mother, who is anxious
about driving in the rain and running late, it is not music.
if skip's mom stops to run into the drugstore, and little skip, sitting by
himself in the car, turns the ignition back on to listen to the wipers, it
is music.
if skip tapes the wipers and plays the tape for his friend, it is music.
if skip leaves the tape at his friend's house and his friend's mom finds the
tape and says 'who the fuck tapes windshield wipers,' it is not music.
if skip teaches a drummer to simulate the wiper rhythm he remembers from his
childhood and builds a composition around it, it is music. but there's no
guarantee it will be good music.
(although i'm sure it would be, skip)
kurt
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:36:06 -0600
From: William Crump <crumpw@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: What is music?
Not only do I disagree with this, I consider it a copout. This is the
opinion my wife insists on mistakenly ascribing to me when we have our
little tete-a-tetes about the nature of art. (It's totally off the
subject, but you should hear us mix it up about Norman Rockwell vs.
Robert Crumb!) See my earlier post about the differentiation between
sounds that are musical and sounds that are music.
William Crump
Samerivertwice@aol.com wrote:
>Anything you can call music to your ears is music, whether it's the sound of
>someone's voice, a Zorn duck call solo, a Mozart piano concerto, a dog's
>bark, the buzz of an oil drill, or the Sex Pistols whining that they have no
>feelings. Ear of the beholder.
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:38:47 -0600
From: William Crump <crumpw@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: wiper music
I agree on all counts. -- Wm.C
Kurt Gottschalk wrote:
> if skip's mom turns on the wipers on another trip to piano lesson,
> with skip enjoying the rhythm but not saying anything to his mother,
> who is anxious about driving in the rain and running late, it is not
> music.
>
> if skip's mom stops to run into the drugstore, and little skip,
> sitting by himself in the car, turns the ignition back on to listen to
> the wipers, it is music.
>
> if skip tapes the wipers and plays the tape for his friend, it is music.
>
> if skip leaves the tape at his friend's house and his friend's mom
> finds the tape and says 'who the fuck tapes windshield wipers,' it is
> not music.
>
> if skip teaches a drummer to simulate the wiper rhythm he remembers
> from his childhood and builds a composition around it, it is music.
> but there's no guarantee it will be good music.
>
> (although i'm sure it would be, skip)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:44:26 -0600
From: William Crump <crumpw@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
skip Heller wrote:
>I smell anti-rural white bigotry somehow. I guess John Waters is right --
>the only politically correct racial epithet is "white trash".
>
It's the only one I feel comfortable using, but I'm writing from
northeast Mississippi. I wonder if that means there's something to the
idea that only a black person could ever have the right to use the N-word.
Wm. C
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:48:01 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: wiper music
on 3/27/02 12:25 PM, Kurt Gottschalk at ecstasymule@hotmail.com wrote:
> If Skip,
> having recognized the wiper sounds as musical, wanted to convey that
> musicality to a friend, said, "Hey, listen to this cool rhythm track,"
> and turned on the wipers, these sounds would change from being MUSICAL
> to being MUSIC. The act of turning on the wipers is the act of
> "organization of sounds and silences."
>
>>>>
>
> if skip's mom turns on the wipers on another trip to piano lesson, with skip
> enjoying the rhythm but not saying anything to his mother, who is anxious
> about driving in the rain and running late, it is not music.
>
> if skip's mom stops to run into the drugstore, and little skip, sitting by
> himself in the car, turns the ignition back on to listen to the wipers, it
> is music.
>
> if skip tapes the wipers and plays the tape for his friend, it is music.
>
> if skip leaves the tape at his friend's house and his friend's mom finds the
> tape and says 'who the fuck tapes windshield wipers,' it is not music.
>
> if skip teaches a drummer to simulate the wiper rhythm he remembers from his
> childhood and builds a composition around it, it is music. but there's no
> guarantee it will be good music.
>
> (although i'm sure it would be, skip)
>
> kurt
>
That's the point I was trying to make and probably didn't make as well as
I'd hoped. The bottom line comes down to the inner-ear reflexes of some
schmuck hearing some windshield wipers. Even tho the noise is the same
noise in each circumstance (until such time as I notate it and hand it to a
drummer). Although in the first scenario you outline, that my exposure to
that noise was accidental does not mean it wasn't music to my ears.
sh
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:51:04 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <ecstasymule@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Although in the first scenario you outline, that my exposure to
>that noise was accidental does not mean it wasn't music to my ears.
EXACTLY. my labelling of music and not-music was facetious, and an extension
of the previous argument i had copied. they're all music. i mean, why the
hell not? are they good music? well, the moms don't seem to think so,
anyway.
my mom loves roger miller and hates tom waits. my dad surprised me by really
enjoying a derek bailey concert, but i'm pretty sure is tone deaf.
kurt
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:51:25 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:27:44 -0800 skip Heller wrote:
>
> on 3/27/02 12:06 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
>
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:54:47 +0000 "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> >> This is Bill's characteristically inimitable and modern take on bluegrass
> >> and country blues with Danny Barnes (from the Bad Livers) on banjo and
> >
> > Darn! The new plague in music: avant-barnyard.
> >
>
> I smell anti-rural white bigotry somehow. I guess John Waters is right --
> the only politically correct racial epithet is "white trash".
I guess the joke did not go through (avant-garage <-> avant-barnyard).
Anyway, the most depressing recent trend in rock in Portland (OR) has been,
IMHO, rock bands that became born again bluegrass bands.
When is the last time that Frisell put some challenging or exciting music?
He is slowly making himself as a specialist of warmed up food. One thing
is sure, he is unlikely to be laid of from Nonesuch.
Patrice.
PS: "White trash" is an American specialty, right?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:53:06 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keithmar@msn.com>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
>>>The composer is only the first step in the process, tho. He
may drive the
cab, but -- my opinion and only that -- the passengers are the
ones who
decide whether or not they made it to an appropriate
destination.<<<
Wow. Composing is to cabdriver as listener is to passenger.
I hold the art of composing in a bit higher regard than that.
This analogy ignores the incredible combination of technique
and inspiration required to create art. And to put the 'measure'
of artistic merit in the hands of the audience. That pretty much
demolishes most of the art this list holds dear. I am so thankful
that Vinny Golia, to use an example relevant to us here in the LA
area,
keeps on composing and playing even though a very tiny portion of
Southern California listeners are hailing his cab. If LA listeners
are
the judge and jury of his art, he'd be better off driving a cab.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:58:18 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
on 3/27/02 12:51 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
> When is the last time that Frisell put some challenging or exciting music?
> He is slowly making himself as a specialist of warmed up food. One thing
> is sure, he is unlikely to be laid of from Nonesuch.
>
> Patrice.
>
> PS: "White trash" is an American specialty, right?
>
> -
I think Frisell lost something vital when Joey Baron left his group.
"White trash" is definitely the kind of bigot's term in which Americans
specialize.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:02:02 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: wiper music
on 3/27/02 12:51 PM, Kurt Gottschalk at ecstasymule@hotmail.com wrote:
> Although in the first scenario you outline, that my exposure to
>> that noise was accidental does not mean it wasn't music to my ears.
>
> EXACTLY. my labelling of music and not-music was facetious, and an extension
> of the previous argument i had copied. they're all music. i mean, why the
> hell not? are they good music? well, the moms don't seem to think so,
> anyway.
>
> my mom loves roger miller and hates tom waits. my dad surprised me by really
> enjoying a derek bailey concert, but i'm pretty sure is tone deaf.
>
> kurt
My mom thought Neil Diamond was the poster boy for good music. I owned all
the Roger Miller records in the house myself.
But as for "are they all music?" (the wiper variations, I mean), I'm not so
sure. If you don't even remotely percieve that it could be music, how do
you know it's bad music?
sh
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:57:31 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 05:29:00PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote:
> "i love the sound of breaking glass" --david bowie
I believe that's Nick Lowe (though the song was, as i understand, a
response to Bowie's "Baby / I've been / breaking glass / in your room
again / listen".
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #861
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