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Zorn List Digest        Friday, March 22 2002        Volume 03 : Number 839



In this issue:
-
       Re: Stockhausen's Light
       Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
       Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
       Re:flag-waving
       Mike Patton in new Dennis Hopper movie
       Re: Stockhausen's Light
       Walter Ruttman
       Re: Mike Patton in new Dennis Hopper movie
       Re: flag-waving
       "Religious" State Statement
       Re: How Come?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:16:07 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:28:40PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
> on 3/21/02 5:26 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > OTOH, couldn't it be said that all of a composer's works are, in some
> > sense, transitional?
>
> wouldn't that question best be asked on a case by case basis?

Well, it would seem to me that the only case in which a piece were not
transitional would be if the composer had determined never to compose
again. (Even a composer's last works tend to be written without the
knowledge that they would be his last.) Otherwise, doesn't the
continuing output reflect at least, to some extent, the experience
gained in writing previous pieces?

Looking at the composers with whom I'm most familiar, the ongoing
mutation of materials, techniques, and style seem to be pretty
clear. Even when they have reapproached their earlier methods and
styles, it is with the added information and experience of the elapsed
years.

I can imagine instances where a composer would get stuck writing
pretty much the same piece over and over for the rest of his life. But
I would hope that this would be the exception, and suspect that, even
there, we might find ongoing elements of change.

(Which all sounds way stuffier than I intended.)

Does this correlate with your experience?

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:30:36 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:53:55AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:

> There's something dubious in this age of globalisation, single European
> currency, and Eucumenical United Nations organisations to emphasize
> "radically" the racial or religious nature of a cultural group, especially
> when it has little if anything to do with the activity at hand, and comes out
> of an utterly cosmopolitan cultural environment. It can only be perceived as
> a gratuitous provocation or agression (albeit in this case an innocuous one)
> when the (civilized) world at large is making unprecedented efforts to tone
> down and transcend its shrill particularisms.

Part of these efforts are the recognition that there is something to
be gained from appreciating and working with the colourful and mostly
benign variety within humankind. To look at one of the most egregious
exemplars of globalism, I understand that McDonald's franchises in
Israel, Japan, and France, for example, are far from identical.

Do you believe homogenous globalisation to be an unadulterated boon? If
not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety?

> > > I also happen to find the Radical Jewish Culture series in dreadful
> > > taste in relation to the daily bulldozing and shooting in the occupied
> > > territories of Palestine.
> >
> > That evinces either a confusion of Judaism as a whole with the specific
> > implementation of Zionism regrettably in prectice there, or simple
> > anti-Jewish prejudice. Which is it?
>
> John Ashcroft or Donald Rumsfeld react just like you at the slightest
> questionning of America.
> You cannot deny that Judaism (just like Islam or Christianity, and even now
> Hinduism) is being used as a pretext for dehumanisation and hatred of what's
> different. And therefore to wave that flag implies a responsability. A person
> claiming to be a Radical Germanic Artist in the 1930's would have faced
> criticism, and rightfully so.

Thus, again, you confuse religion and state action.

I recognize that the religion is being used by some as a pretext for
brutality. In other forums, I am working to change that. But to
completely decry a religion due to a particular set of acts by some of
its adherents is, at best, unconscionable.

I understand that the European viewpoint is somewhat more touchy on
terms of apparent nationalism than viewpoint in the States tend to
be. Thus, perhaps, the impulse to miscategorize religion-based culture
outside of political contexts as such?

And can you point to any belief system with a sufficiently large number
of adherents that never been used as a cover for negative action? If
not, why the vehemence here?

> > > As for the remarketing of Serge Gainsbourg or Burt Bacharach under this
> > > umbrella, it's a clever, eye-catching provocation but as unconnected to
> > > reality as the  linking by some of Iran to North Korea.
> >
> > I raised my eyebrow at those choices too, and didn't get them. But I
> > don't begrudge Zorn his ability to choose to package and release these
> > recordings in this way, and am intrigued by the way that these
> > releases raised the issue of what Jewish Culture actually is.
> >
> > > Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture.
> > > Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture.
> > > Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture.
> >
> > And you would, indeed, be as free to release them as such as Tzadik is
> > to release the Radical Jewish Culture series. Congratulations.
>
> I'd be a radical asshole!

If that is what you wish to be, that is what you are free to be.

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:32:19 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:27:54PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > > Now please, do yourself a favor. Do not waste time dissecting every
> >piece of
> > > deluded grammar in your life.
> >
> >And from where is this perception injected?
>
> It is what you do.

Based on your perception of a single day's writing?

> >I take it that you finally acknowledge your inability to answer the
> >questions asked?
>
> Nope I was being sarcastic. I feel sorry for your friends, family and co
> workers if this is how you always act. Do you such "intellectual debates" in
> your head when you wipe your butt? Do I wipe forward? Do I wipe from behind?
> Do I fold it twice, if I do will I contradict all of my previous wipings in
> the past?

Ah, does this fit is with your repeated references to genitalia in
other messages?

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 04:22:59 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:flag-waving

>
> Do you believe homogenous globalisation to be an unadulterated boon?

Surely not, but chauvinism (of any sort) has got to go. Very dangerous stuff.

> If not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety?

Celebrate it in your work, or in your life. Just don't wave a flag about it.
The problem here is flags (very popular right now in the U.S., I understand)

> Thus, again, you confuse religion and state action.
>
> And can you point to any belief system with a sufficiently large number
> of adherents that never been used as a cover for negative action? If
> not, why the vehemence here?

I never said, however much you'd like to hear it, that the Jewish faith was any
different from any other in that respect (in fact it's been better than others, if
only out of necessity).
I do believe in strict separation of State and Church. But Israel being a
religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia), I don't see how one could
conveniantly perform the separation.

> > > > Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture.
> > > > Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture.
> > > > Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture.
> > >
> > > And you would, indeed, be as free to release them as such as Tzadik is
> > > to release the Radical Jewish Culture series. Congratulations.
> >
> > I'd be a radical asshole!
>
> If that is what you wish to be, that is what you are free to be.

Where did I say I'd wish to be one?
D.

>
>
>
>
> -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:35:55 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mike Patton in new Dennis Hopper movie

Some of y'all will be more interested in this than I am, but the
current issue of Film Comment includes a brief listing about a
forthcoming Dennis Hopper movie, Firecracker, the cast of which
includes Edward Furlong, Debbie Harry, Mike Patton, Jane Wiedlin.

That's pretty much all it says.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:42:05 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light

on 3/21/02 7:16 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:28:40PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
>> on 3/21/02 5:26 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:
>>
>>> OTOH, couldn't it be said that all of a composer's works are, in some
>>> sense, transitional?
>>
>> wouldn't that question best be asked on a case by case basis?
>
> Well, it would seem to me that the only case in which a piece were not
> transitional would be if the composer had determined never to compose
> again. (Even a composer's last works tend to be written without the
> knowledge that they would be his last.) Otherwise, doesn't the
> continuing output reflect at least, to some extent, the experience
> gained in writing previous pieces?
>
> Looking at the composers with whom I'm most familiar, the ongoing
> mutation of materials, techniques, and style seem to be pretty
> clear. Even when they have reapproached their earlier methods and
> styles, it is with the added information and experience of the elapsed
> years.
>
> I can imagine instances where a composer would get stuck writing
> pretty much the same piece over and over for the rest of his life. But
> I would hope that this would be the exception, and suspect that, even
> there, we might find ongoing elements of change.
>
> (Which all sounds way stuffier than I intended.)
>
> Does this correlate with your experience?

Not neccessarily.  Some composers fall into periods where they've kind of
reached their conclusions about certain concepts and they write what they
found (re: Mahler around the Kindertotlieder and the 5), or have a
methodology that bypasses the popular definition of "transitional" (Ives
after the 3) because they visit and revisit, or because maybe the phase
they're in involves older materials (just about anybody's neo-classical
phase, especially Stravinsky).  I think just because you're returning to an
earlier form with different experience doesn't mean a transition.  I think
that's putting too philosophical abent on things.  A lot of it just comes
down to getting the music done on your deadline instead of the loftier art
stuff, and I say this as someone who pays the rent mostly as a composer.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:44:59 -0500
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Walter Ruttman

Since someone mentioned Walter Ruttman on this list recently, I decided to
find his work.  "Weekend" (Metamkine 3"CD) is an excellent collage record-
much more interesting than anything I've heard from Nurse With Wound.  If
anyone's interested, it's available from forcedexposure.com

Best,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:49:25 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Mike Patton in new Dennis Hopper movie

I heard an interview done with Mike Patton (during Fantomas's last tour) and
he mentioned doing two films. both of which he vaguely described himself as
gangster or thug type. he gave no titles, but made it clear he is not an
actor and he was specifically asked to do both of the aforementioned films,
he didn't seek the roles out.

- -mike thompson

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:24 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:22:59AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> >
> > Do you believe homogenous globalisation to be an unadulterated boon?
>
> Surely not, but chauvinism (of any sort) has got to go. Very dangerous stuff.

So how would you balance these? And where you choose to paint
"chauvinism" in this issue?

> > If not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety?
>
> Celebrate it in your work, or in your life.

Yet you protest Zorn, et al, doing exactly that. Do you see the
contradiction?

> Just don't wave a flag about it.
> The problem here is flags (very popular right now in the U.S., I understand)

The problem here is that you misperceive the issue as being about
"flags".

Again, you confuse religion and state action.

> > Thus, again, you confuse religion and state action.
> >
> > And can you point to any belief system with a sufficiently large number
> > of adherents that never been used as a cover for negative action? If
> > not, why the vehemence here?
>
> I never said, however much you'd like to hear it, that the Jewish faith was any
> different from any other in that respect (in fact it's been better than others, if
> only out of necessity).

Then why do you choose specifically to denigrate just Judaism?

> I do believe in strict separation of State and Church. But Israel being a
> religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia), I don't see how one could
> conveniantly perform the separation.

Do you understand that not all Jews support the actions of the current
Israeli government, and some do not even recognize the government, or
even the existence of the state of Israel in the first place, as
valid?

To assume that every Jew agrees with every action of the government of
Israel is precisely the same as assuming that every Christian (yes,
including Russian Orthodox and Protestant) agrees with every action of
the Vatican or that every Muslim agreed with every action of the
Taliban. Or perhaps, for that matter, that every atheist agrees with
every action of People's Republic of China.

I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American
disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W. Bush. I think the
problem is that you have, mistakenly and far too easily, mapped the
statements and actions of people who happen to be in office at a given
time onto the supposed thoughts of all those who ostensibly are in
their jurisdiction. (And even in that, your perception of the
jurisdiction of the Israeli government is phenomenally inaccurate.)

Do you agree with every statement and action of every official in
France? If not, why do you assume this of others?

To quote Daniel Pearl, "I am a Jew. My mother and father are Jews." I
live within a rich religious culture, as well as a rich secular
culture in which the religious culture is able to flourish and
celebrate itself, and in a country where I am able to work within both
these religious and secular areas and, yes, able to protest when I
disagree with the officials of this and other governments.

I offer no apologies for this, and suggest that your misperceptions
might benefit from considering it.

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:24:42 +0100 (MET)
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Fruitman)
Subject: "Religious" State Statement

>>Israel being a
>> religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia)

Just to clear the air, Israel is not a religious state. That would imply a
theocracy, where the religious leadership dictated government policy.

Stephen Fruitman
Dept of Historical Studies
Ume=E5 University
SE-901 87 Ume=E5 Sweden



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 02:10:14 -0800
From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?

Wow. This is more fun than a chatroom now. You are a knob of which I do not
care to spend much more time with. Do you even have an opinion? Or are you
here to question every sentence typed? I truly think you are a sad sad
person in need of some serious outside activity. I really do.

You cannot sense sarcasm.

1. I never complained about "Political Correctness".
2. Religion is a trivial matter. I do not see it's relevance to whether or
not the music is good. I can't wait to try some good Muslim food. How about
that new Christian Car? Have you checked out that Jehovah Witness Stereo?
3. Women have issues. Men have issues. Whites have issues. Blacks have
issues. Welcome to life. I think you have the most issues.
4. Religion is a lifestyle choice. I was born a European-American Male. Not
my choice. I am an atheist. My choice. My cousin was born a Europan-American
male. Not his choice. He is Mormon. His choice.
5. I believe in equality among men, women and all races and ethnicities. I
guess that makes me bad in your eyes.

John Schuller

Who is done with Mr. Zitt.


>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:05:26 -0600
>
>On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:23:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > >In what way are you incapable of seeing this?
> >
> > Explain your view of how that is complaining about Political Correctness
>and
> > I will see the way the I am currently incapable of seeing this. Do it. I
> > dare ya.
>
>Explain to me how you are not seeing it, and I will fill in the gap.
>
> > Because the marketing of those projects promotes seperation. People
>hanging
> > out with others of like backgrounds etc. just promotes people hanging
>out.
>
>Again: you find some unstated problem with people creating projects
>(which, of course, are inextricable from that to which I am guessing
>that you refer by the term "marketing") based on that which they find
>that they have in common with some others. If you do not find this to
>be a problem, then explain why you approve of other projects that can
>safely be predicted not to be of interest to any other subset of the
>world population.
>
> > Not "Look at me, I am different because I was born with different
> > genetalia"...
>
>If you consider women's issues to be a simple matter of "genitalia",
>you demonstrate your further incomprehension of the lives of people
>other than yourself.
>
> > > > How? I don't dislike the recording projects. I dislike that they are
> > > > marketed the way they are.
> > >
> > >How are you drawing this distinction?
> >
> > Here is our "People with Vagina" series. Etc. Etc.
>
>Again: how are you drawing the difference between the recording and
>marketing of the Radical Jewish Culture series? With the possible exception
>of the Great Jewish Composers trilogy (which I suspect is the joker in the
>deck), the other items in the series are particularly relevant to Jewish
>culture, and were primarily created expressly for that series.
>
>Your repeated issue with "genetalia" (sic) and "Vagina" is best left
>as a matter for your therapist.
>
> > >Yet you find it, and not the others, as a valid parameter for
> > >aggregation. I ask again: why?
> >
> > It is valid just because all it is a geographical spot. In different
> > countries the music can be very different from others. Sort of like how
> > people with penises make different music than those with vaginas. They
> > should all be in seperate a seperate Music Series.
>
>Unfortunately, possibly as a result of the displayed psychosexual issues,
>the above paragraph has lost even syntactical coherence. Try again?
>
> > >Thus confirming the earlier suggestion that you are unfamiliar with
> > >more than a trivial concept of religious belief and practice.
> >
> > That is because religion is a lifestyle choice that I have ZERO interest
>in.
> > It is a life style that is not for me. To me- all religious practices
>and
> > belief are trivial.
>
>"trivial"... "ZERO interest"... yet you repeatedly and vociferously
>condemn its expression in art. Curious.
>
>That you project your lack of interest in it into a demand that you
>place on others fits snugly into the arrogant solipsism which you have
>revealed so far.
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>


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- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #839
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