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Zorn List Digest      Thursday, February 28 2002      Volume 03 : Number 803



In this issue:
-
       gamelan breaks?
       Re: another burning question
       balls out coleman
       Previte "Miro"
       Re: another burning question
       Re: another burning question
       Re: LA question
       minilp
       RE: minilp
       zorn piece to be played at Eastman School of Music
       RE: minilp
       Re: Game Theory
       Re: Game Theory
       Re: gamelan breaks?
       new fella' thankyou's/ New Model Army
       gamelan
       Bud Powell, Kenny Millions articles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:49:37 -0500
From: "Andrew" <[e-mail]>
Subject: gamelan breaks?

Ok.....so I'm really digging the sound of the Gamelan, and i'm loving that
track on Filmworks X that's all Gamelan. What are some discs of Gamelan
music that I should check out?

andrew


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:02:03 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: another burning question

[e-mail] asked:

>what i really want to know: is it true that ornette had himself catstrated
>in the mid-60s so that sexual urges would no longer distract him from his
>art? i mean, did complain a couple times about that distraction in earlier
>interviews and he does have a bit of a squeak in his voice, just like my
>grandfather got after having a cancer-related operation of that type
>(which, btw, he reported made him feel much better).

According to an interview in Ornette: Made in America, Shirley
Clarke's movie about Ornette Coleman, he asked a doctor to castrate
him, but the doctor convinced him that getting circumcised would be
enough.


- --
Herb Levy
P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, Texas  76147  USA
817  377-2983
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:12:44 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: balls out coleman

i'm not going to claim any knowledge of ornette's ejaculate (free jizz?),
but in an incredibly odd, terribly 80s and not particularly good documentary
called 'made in america' he does, as i recall, say that he was castrated in
order to concentrate more fully on music. this is the same film that shows
him on an exercise bike in an orange jumpsuit against a black screen,
talking about how he will travel in space before he dies.

or something. point being, i don't know what he or shirley clarke were on
(don't miss the endless flashing neon triangles over people's faces), but
just because he said it don't convince me it's true. see it, not it's good,
but because you won't believe how stangefuckingawfulweird it is.

i have a headache.

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:20:41 -0500
From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Previte "Miro"

Whit Schobein wrote

"2. I picked up Bobby Previte's '23 constellations...' tuesday, and have
been listening to it every day since.  I for one think he hit the nail on
the head - the musical paintings composed by previte and performed so well
by the ensemble definitely make me think of miro's constellations series
.not that I would have made that association without the full-color
reproductions of the paintings included in the booklet, but once you have
them to look at, one can feel where the inspiration for each musical piece
came from.  The music is often playful, often happy, sometimes brooding,
sometimes epic, somtimes free, but always under that sort of control only
very good musicians (and band leaders) can enforce - very much previte (and
also very much tonal - this isn't another atonal-modern-classical-ish bit of
music). And each piece is short - 2-3 minutes; at first this was distracting
- - i felt they didn't last long enough to really get a feel for what was
going on.  but after multiple listens, the structure, melody,
harmonies, and moods of each piece became more apparent, and my
appreciation has increased as a result.  Another recent winner from
Tzadik..."

Total agreement.  Thank goodness it's not one of those third stream
attempts.  In fact it's not an easy work to categorize, much like Miro
himself.  Though the pieces are short, my feeling is that they hang together
as one, again reflecting Miro's pieces which were done as a series.  I've
listened to it quite a few times, and each time another instruemnt seems to
rise to the top, very much like first hearing Pharoah's Dance or Miles Runs
the Voodoo Down.

Speaking of Voodoo, anyone heading out to catch Bobby's Voodoo (formerly The
Horse) tonight?  I would, but the 1000 miles drive would get me there a bit
late.  If you are going (and preserving the moment...hint) please contact me
off line.

Alan Kayser
np Mujician "Spacetime"





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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:34:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: another burning question

Martin:

According to John Litwiller (sp)'s bio of Ornette,
after he asked a doctor about castration, the medical
man suggested circumcision -- symbolic castration as
he put it -- hm.

As for the Olsen Twins, the place place to start is
not.

Ken

- --- [e-mail] wrote:
> olsen twins, the sex life of zorn, ornette playing
> out of tune....
>
> what i really want to know: is it true that ornette
> had himself catstrated
> in the mid-60s so that sexual urges would no longer
> distract him from his
> art? i mean, did complain a couple times about that
> distraction in earlier
> interviews and he does have a bit of a squeak in his
> voice, just like my
> grandfather got after having a cancer-related
> operation of that type
> (which, btw, he reported made him feel much better).
>
> also, where is a good place to start with the olsen
> twins?


=====
Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos

______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:41:35 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: another burning question

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:34:13 -0500 (EST)  Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> Martin:
>
> According to John Litwiller (sp)'s bio of Ornette,
> after he asked a doctor about castration, the medical
> man suggested circumcision -- symbolic castration as
> he put it -- hm.

We poor humans are fortunate to be allowed to trade the true thing
for its watered down version (the "symbolic" one), it helps us, at
least, to avoid the ridicule and keep a straight face :-).

But if Coleman's problem could be completely solved on the symbolic
level, that surely means that it was not a really tragic one
(thanks for us).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:55:17 -0800
From: florid oratory <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: LA question

whit, check out a club called rocco, i think the site is roccoinla.org.
also, first sunday of the month has decent groups, leaning outside, at the
eagle rock community cultural center--the series is programmed by alex
cline, nels' great drumming brother.

also go to the cryptogrammophone records website and email an inquiry to
jeff gauthier. he'll know a few things....

- --graham connah

>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:23:50 -0600 (CST)
> From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
> Subject: last minute LA question + previte mini review
>
> 1. I'm off to Los Angeles sunday for a week.  A perusal of the Knitting
> Factory Hollywood website was discouraging.  Anybody know of anything
> interesting going on, muscially?  By interesting I mean improv music,
> including some more straight ahead stuff, e.g., mehldau or chris potter's
> quartet.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:00:20 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: minilp

hi -- lifted this off the jazzmatazz site (the proprietor of which, i
believe, is online here). what the devil's a 'mini lp'?

Gigi Gryce/Donald Byrd & Cecil Taylor - Jazz Lab & Quartet At Newport
(Verve) Sept ù mini-LP
Sister Rosetta Tharpe - Gospel Train (Verve) Sept ù mini-LP
Farmer/Golson Jazztet - At Birdhouse (Verve) Sept ù mini-LP
Sam Rivers - Crystals (Verve/Impulse!) Sept ù mini-LP
Cal Tjader - Soul Bird: Whiffenpoof (Verve) Sept ù mini-LP


_________________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:58:33 -0500
From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: minilp

>hi -- lifted this off the jazzmatazz site (the proprietor of which, i
>believe, is online here). what the devil's a 'mini lp'?

mini LP's are cd packages made to look just like, well, mini lp's.  they
often have gatefolds and all original packaging.  I saw a bunch of Impulse
titles out in Japan (including a remastered Tauhid!).  Blue Note Japan and
Sony Japan have done a bunch too.  Get Back label out of Italy did the Sun
Ra ESP discs a couple years ago, and a label called Vido did the first 20 or
so Zappa releases.  They're basically for fetishists (myself included),
although there are some available overseas with remastering that hasn't been
unleashed on us stateside.  I'm sure those Verve titles you listed will
simply be rereleases done in that spiffy packaging.

I have spoken to a few people who don't like them because they aren't the
same size as a jewel case, but I think they're pretty cool.

sean


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:14:03 GMT
From: "nors5379" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn piece to be played at Eastman School of Music

it was brought to my attention by a friend who attends
Eastman that a Zorn piece is to be performed next thursday
night as part of the monthly 'musica nova' series which is
ran by brad lubman if im correct. theres no mention of what
piece is to be performed but its next thursday night in
kilbourn hall.
more info can be found here under the march 7th listing...
http://www.rochester.edu/Eastman/community_visitors/cv_conce
rtcalendar.htm

- -darryl.
Darryl Norsen
db.etree.org/shortround
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

if I were an easy bright boy I think
I would say something like, "cleaning
the fingernails with a dirty fingernail
file is a form of masterbation." and I
would probably win a scholarship, a grant,
the king's sword on shoulder and 14 hot
pieces of ass. -charles bukowski


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:14:40 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: minilp

>mini LP's are cd packages made to look just like, well, mini lp's.

oh. yeah. i like those. stupid name for them, tho, yeah?

_________________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:16:45 -0800
From: Clint Nation <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Game Theory

Herb Levy wrote:
>
> Clint Nation <[e-mail]> asks:
>
> >
> >  Did any of Mr. Zorn's Cobra projects turn out according to the set
> >  plan.  Given the axioms of rational choice, the axioms that Mr. Zorn
> >  set-up, one should be predict the outcome of the musical interaction.
> >  As we know people do not always act rationally and this would lead to
> >  the piece not working out according to the "set" plan.  Note: Rational
> >  chaoice would be determined by the axioms set up  by Mr. Zorn.....i.e.
> >  "It is rational to prefer the destruction of the universe to the
> >  scratching of one's finger"-Hume.  If so what peices actually work out
> >  and are there any writings explaining the logic and axioms used?
> >
> >A new member,
> >XQUIQ
>
> Maybe I'm not fully understanding what you write here, but these
> pieces aren't just outlines that Zorn didn't fill in entirely,
> they're like "real" games with sets of rules, but options for
> individual players within these rules. The range of actions and
> interactions is wide enough that there's no sense in trying to
> predict the outcome.
>
> Just as in baseball or hockey or chess or whatever, of course, based
> on past performances, you can always "predict" that one team or
> individual will kick another's butt, but the game doesn't always go
> the way you think it will. A baseball game in which the Texas Rangers
> beat the Seattle Mariners might be unlikely, based on last year's
> teams at least, but it could still follow all of the rules of
> baseball and be unpredictable in this way.
>
> The FAQ <http://www.browbeat.com/zornlist/faq.html> has a lengthy
> description of game pieces that may be of help. Or not.
>
> Bests,
>
> Herb
> --
> Herb Levy
> Mappings on Antenna Internet Radio
> <http://www.antennaradio/avant/mappings/>
> [e-mail]
>
> Mappings  P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, TX 76147  USA
>
> -
Mr. Zitt and Mr. Levy,
There doesn't have to be a winner or loser in a noncompetitive game.
Also, the fact that there "rules" (once again set out by Mr. Zorn)
implies that the choices the players makes are not arbitrary.  However,
as in real life, or in baseball, people are free to play within this
rules.  I realize that Mr. Zorn's game pieces are like "real" games with
sets of rules, in which each individual player plays within these
rules.
    I realize now that I may have been asking to much when I asked which
peices actually worked out.  However it may not be to much to ask which
pieces actually followed the structure of the game and which strategies
where available to the players?  In addition, what are the rules that
Mr. Zorn set up for some of these game(are they available anywhere)?
I realize that this discussion may not be considered in the realm of
game theory(yet!!!) but given this information I will be able to model
the interactions between the musicians and model the game more
formally(possibly using game theory).
If you have an more information please feel free to add a comment.....
P.S. Thank you Mr. Zitt and Mr. Levy for your response.
P.P.S.  I am writing my undergraduate honors essay(mathematics) on
modelling musical interactions using game theory.....I figured the best
place to start would be Mr. Zorn's Cobra.
XQuiQ

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:31:37 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Game Theory

On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 10:16:45AM -0800, Clint Nation wrote:

> Also, the fact that there "rules" (once again set out by Mr. Zorn)
> implies that the choices the players makes are not arbitrary.  However,
> as in real life, or in baseball, people are free to play within this
> rules.  I realize that Mr. Zorn's game pieces are like "real" games with
> sets of rules, in which each individual player plays within these
> rules.

Well, it depends how you apply the word "arbitrary". Of course, there
are rules, but no musical situation exists without some constraints on
the players, though these may be as subtle and unexamined as the
physical constraints of the chosen instruments. Similarly, no ensemble
music operates without some sort of interaction of the musicians, even
if that interaction consists of ignoring one another (the sounds still
mix in the air). And all music involves a degree of improvisation and
interpretation (with the possible exception of the act of playing back
an existing recording).

> P.P.S.  I am writing my undergraduate honors essay(mathematics) on
> modelling musical interactions using game theory.....I figured the best
> place to start would be Mr. Zorn's Cobra.

I would be quite interested in ready what you come up with.

<Personal_Plug>
My recent book (see below) contains some improvisation structures and
related materials that may interest you.
</Personal_Plug>

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:46:16 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gamelan breaks?

On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:49:37PM -0500, Andrew wrote:
> Ok.....so I'm really digging the sound of the Gamelan, and i'm loving that
> track on Filmworks X that's all Gamelan. What are some discs of Gamelan
> music that I should check out?

I recall an excellent introduction on the Nonesuch label named "Music
for the Morning of the World".  There's also a very good triple disc,
"The Bali Sessions", produced by Mickey Hart on Rykodisc. For an
intersection of 20th Century avant-garde with gamelan, check out the
group Gamelan Son of Lion.

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:57:05 -0800
From: "gorilla thing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: new fella' thankyou's/ New Model Army

Hello,

thank you all for the recommendations, I'm doing some fishing to find out
your results.
since it seems most of the Zornies are huge music fans, what is your take on
New Model Army?
One of my favorites since high school that continue to bash out great music.

Thanks to all for their help.

Chad

_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:23:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Albrecht Koschnik <[e-mail]>
Subject: gamelan

How about Philip Corner, '3 Pieces for Gamelan Ensemble'?!

And: Celestial Harmonies has a three-CD set, 'The Music of Cambodia';
'9 Gong Gamelan' is devoted to a Gamelan ensemble recorded inside Angkor
Wat (central temple of Khmer culture) [should be available separately].
In general, Celestial H. has a bunch of similar sets, Vietnam, Bali,
China, which are highly addictive.

Albrecht

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:21:29 -0500
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bud Powell, Kenny Millions articles

Greetings

In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine
<http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):

KENNY MILLIONS
Mark Swartz interviews the loft-jazz to sushi-blues legend

BUD POWELL
Mad genius of be-bop: D.A. Nation looks at the sad, brutal life of this
under-rated piano prestidigitator


We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any
writing or ideas for upcoming issues.

See you online,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #803
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