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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #700 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, January 23 2002 Volume 03 : Number 700 In this issue: - nonmusicians[longish] London Re: Dolphy rumor (was something about Ornette) Re: Sing Me A Song of Songmy Fwd: Spy vs. Spy Re: stand up Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #695 Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #695 The Ornette Fight Re: stand up Re: The Ornette Fight Jost on Ornette Re: stand up/musicians basic fennesz question Re: The Ornette Fight ornette ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 05:51:32 -0800 (PST) From: jason tors <jasontors@yahoo.com> Subject: nonmusicians[longish] Oh someone cares about the nonmusicians, this is great... Music to me is something that gives me a really strong feeling one way or another. For a long time, the more complex and intense the experience the better, hence my interest in zorn. Recently I have been going back to more simplified music, or music that has hooks and gives a pleasant experience, hence my growing interest in some indie bands and select pop music. I get all my ideas from music, being mostly abstract to me and something that I feel and not *really* understand. In this way I am a huge critic of album art because I have particular visual tendancies, I get really upset when the artwork does not live up to my vision of the music. A good example [imo] of artwork is steve byram's work for w&w and all berne releases. On the same subject, berne's newest Open, Coma is totally blowing me away. It is the most natural step for tim, the complexity in the free sections, tension in the composed, the resolution, its bernemusic in technicolor. When I find space to start painting again Coma will be top on the play list. There is nothing that I wish musicians would do in particular except be as open minded as possible, and push the boundaries. One small thing, the squealing thing. I am used to high pitch sax frequencies over extended periods of time, I understand the placement most of the time, but there are so many times I feel like its wanking. Three of my favorite players/composers are squealers, zorn berne, and vandermark, when appropriate its very effective, but so often it seems to be a way out. My starting point down this road of creative music came from early exposure to phish and primus. I was stuck in that rut for a while, then opened up to mmw, then the flood gates of the downtown scene were opened. At the same time I had a parallel interest in *classic* jazz and would trace my way back from player to player. Most of it informed my contemporary interests. 60s-70s miles, all trane, ornette [pre primetime] dolphy, ming, rashaan, ellington and even armstrong. > Finally for all the non-musician what is it that attracts you to the > avant-garde music? Are there any pieces/albums/composers that you > remember > to be your starting point? What makes something "sound good" to you? > Is > there anything you wish more musicians would do or anything we should > stop > doing? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:00:39 +0900 From: "Akira SAITO" <akirasaito@nyc.odn.ne.jp> Subject: London Hello, I'm going to London from Feb. 4 to 7. Is there any live spot of jazz or avant garde? Akira Saito - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:38:23 -0500 From: Mark Saleski <marks@foliage.com> Subject: Re: Dolphy rumor (was something about Ornette) >From: "thomas chatterton" <chatterton23@hotmail.com> >P.S. Not being a musician it is difficult sometimes to engage in technical >discussions about complex musical forms; however it does make listening a >hell of a lot easier... "it does make listening a hell of a lot easier..." this is interesting. what about the other musicians out there? i'm one as well and understand all this techical stuff but for the most part can listen to nearly anything and not analyze it. i never really think about what the musicians on a recording are doing....the only exception to that would be if i'm seeing a live performance and somebody's making some truly bizarre noise...and even then it's usually a matter of trying to figure out, say, what's the guitar player scraping the strings behind the bridge with... - -- Mark Saleski - marks@foliage.com | http://www.foliage.com/~marks "Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:21:06 -0600 From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu> Subject: Re: Sing Me A Song of Songmy I believe the Mimaroglu / Hubbard record was on Atlantic. I fondly remember playing big chunks of it on the radio. Rob - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:55:37 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es> Subject: Fwd: Spy vs. Spy Hi, Although it's been a while since I haven't listened to Spy vs. Spy, I've always enjoyed the album, and find it strongly connected to two of Zorn's major projects: NC (hardcore connection) and Masada (Ornette-connection). The energy of this album, regardless of the originality of its approach, is undeniable. However, I found it strange that nobody complained about the sound quality of that recording - maybe someone did and I missed it. It's massive, but in a negative way (kind of direct-to-2-track recording or something). Along with Masada's "Live in Taipei", the worst Zorn (in terms of sound, that is), IMHO. Best, EfrΘn del Valle _______________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente. http://messenger.yahoo.es - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:36:30 EST From: Stickygreens420@aol.com Subject: Re: stand up - --part1_b7.1a72b918.298094ee_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Gee, that's elitist, isn't it? Could an unfunny comedian get away with that > - -- "You don't do stand-up? Oh, then you'll never know how funny I am." i thought that was a good analogy until i thought about it. you may think hes funny but youll never know what its like to be a standup, the skills required to speak loud and clearly and be an animated character. .whatever it is stand ups do. .."you dont do stand up? then you cant appreciate what it is i do as much as someone who does" or. with less words. musicians relate to musicians more than a non musician. - --part1_b7.1a72b918.298094ee_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Gee, that's elitist, isn't it? Could an unfunny comedian get away with that - -- "You don't do stand-up? Oh, then you'll never know how funny I am."</BLOCKQUOTE> i thought that was a good analogy until i thought about it. you may think hes funny but youll never know what its like to be a standup, the skills required to speak loud and clearly and be an animated character. .whatever it is stand ups do. .."you dont do stand up? then you cant appreciate what it is i do as much as someone who does" or. with less words. musicians relate to musicians more than a non musician. </HTML> - --part1_b7.1a72b918.298094ee_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:01:46 EST From: Stickygreens420@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #695 - --part1_12a.b126319.29809ada_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/02 4:40:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: > > >Well, if you don't like rhythm'n'blues, you're not going to like GW's > > >material. > > > > Pretty reductive. I like rhythm and blues and don't care for Grover > > Washington. > > you know what i like? pomegranates. you know what i don't like? zucchini. > i disagree with this. completley. theres no way. absolutley no way pomegranates are better than zucchini. i bet you. id swear by it. yes.! zucchini, especially zucchini,fried .check it out - --part1_12a.b126319.29809ada_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>In a message dated 1/22/02 4:40:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">> >Well, if you don't like rhythm'n'blues, you're not going to like GW's > >material. > > Pretty reductive. I like rhythm and blues and don't care for Grover > Washington. you know what i like? pomegranates. you know what i don't like? zucchini. </BLOCKQUOTE> i disagree with this. completley. theres no way. absolutley no way pomegranates are better than zucchini. i bet you. id swear by it. yes.! zucchini, especially zucchini,fried .check it out</HTML> - --part1_12a.b126319.29809ada_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:36:53 -0800 From: Jim Flannery <newgrange@sfo.com> Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #695 > absolutley no way pomegranates are better than zucchini. But pomegranate syrup is much tastier than zucchini syrup. - --=20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - Jim Flannery =20 newgrange@sfo.com "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92= =20 I=92m almost always wrong." -- Dwight Macdonald - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:12:20 -0800 From: "Chris Selvig" <mmlselvig@hotmail.com> Subject: The Ornette Fight "You're essentially saying 'this is just my opinion but it's right'..." - having endured and participated in several hundred music arguments, I'm going to come right out and say this is the soul of said arguments. I don't always agree with Mr Heller - I'm quite an Ornette fan, f'rinstance - but his ability to skilfully lob darts goes a long way toward keeping this list interesting. Is there some concern that someone's feelings might be hurt? - -Selvig _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:12:35 -0500 From: "Jesse Kudler" <jkudler@mail.wesleyan.edu> Subject: Re: stand up - ----- Original Message ----- From: <Stickygreens420@aol.com> To: <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 5:36 PM Subject: Re: stand up > i thought that was a good analogy until i thought about it. you may think > hes funny but youll never know what its like to be a standup, the skills > required to speak loud and clearly and be an animated character. .whatever it > is stand ups do. .."you dont do stand up? then you cant appreciate what it > is i do as much as someone who does" or. with less words. musicians relate > to musicians more than a non musician. Well, maybe they "relate" better i.e. empathize, or understand the particularities of what's going on physically or whatever, but I think the idea that musicians are somehow in a privileged position as far as appreciating or "understanding" the aesthetics of certain music is a total fiction. What you're really saying is that the qualities that "musicians" admire (technical or otherwise) are somehow more important than the qualities that non-musicians might latch on to. I find this most frustrating in a lot of academic music, or even non-academic computer music, where genuinely boring music is supposed to be redeemed by some tricky process, or cool patch, or whatever. Sure, as someone who does music and recording, I notice things that no one else does. But just because I can hear what protools plug-in Blink 182 is using doesn't make them any better. Or worse. It just means I'm using a different standard to evaluate them. Arguably, the wrong one. - -Jesse - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:48:04 +1100 From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au> Subject: Re: The Ornette Fight I'm sure most of us have been on other mailing lists. In general most of them aren't quite as intelligent as the Zorn list. On these other lists it is quite common to have one person say "just my opinion" and another to say "no, well it's wrong" - they just don't know any better. I thought the Zorn list was above this, but I guess I was wrong... > "You're essentially saying 'this is just my opinion but it's right'..." - > having endured and participated in several hundred music arguments, I'm > going to come right out and say this is the soul of said arguments. I don't > always agree with Mr Heller - I'm quite an Ornette fan, f'rinstance - but > his ability to skilfully lob darts goes a long way toward keeping this list > interesting. Is there some concern that someone's feelings might be hurt? - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 02:08:07 +0000 From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com> Subject: Jost on Ornette Apropos to recent discussions, Jost, pp. 51-53: "Closely related to Ornette Coleman's attitude toward tonality is his treatment of pitch. One of the things he was accused of at the very beginning was 'wrong intonation'. Now, 'wrong' is a purely relative term in this connection, that is, what may be considered wrong in reference to European tempered tuning may be perfectly 'right' in another musical context. Equal temperament is, a priori, nothing other than an agreement accepted Occidental musical culture for the sake of practical considerations. By a process of acculturation too complex to be gone into here, it was later adopted by jazz. As we know, the equal tempered scale--synthetic at bottom--never became a hard and fast norm in jazz to the exclusion of everything else. There have always been things 'foreign' to it. For example, blue notes are--strictly speaking--'atonal,' but were refunctioned into minor thirds and sevenths by the use of the piano, and by pseudo-jazz genres a la Gershwin. Another example are the individual shadings of intonation: bent or slurred tones must not be regarded as accidental; on the contrary, they are part of the individual language of musicians and are an intentional means of expression.... These observations are of special importance for Coleman's 'wrong' intonation. A series of measurements (State Institute of Musical Research, Berlin) has shown that the frequencies of Coleman's sounds do in fact often deviate from the tempered system. As it happens, however, most of these deviations are well within the range we usually tolerate in an opera singer or violin virtuoso. And it is frequently the case that even tones whose aural impression leads one to suspect greater deviations are likewise within this tolerance range. These 'subjective' deviations result not from a change of frequency, but from an alteration of the sound itself. Looking at it from this angle, one realizes what Ornette Coleman means when he speaks of the 'human qulaity' of his intonation, of 'human pitch' or 'vocalization of the sound.' A sound is vocalized not be intoning it higher or lower, but by playing it differently....These very subtle sound manipulations are used by Ornette Coleman in two sorts of context and for different purposes: first, as he says himself, to give his music that human vocal sound, which is such a marked contrast to the sterilized tone quality of West Coast jazz, in whose geographical vicinity his music first became known...; second, alterations of the timbre of single tones serve as a means of syntactic organization; in many of his pieces he emphasizes long tones in this way at the beginning or end of phrases." _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:53:51 +1100 From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au> Subject: Re: stand up/musicians Sure, but your point has drifted from musicians to technically-minded computer people. I don't think the Protools plug-in Blink 182 is using is going to redeem it too much. But perhaps if one day we heard a new and exciting chord progression in one of their songs (not too likely) we might go 'hey, I haven't heard that before' and give it another spin... However, your point may ring true for some things, for example electronic music like Aphex Twin or Autechre. These guys really rely on their amazingly clarity of sounds, and probably if they were using sub-standard equipment, it may not sound so good, perhaps even to the point that people don't listen want to listen to it. > I find this most frustrating in a lot of academic music, > or even non-academic computer music, where genuinely > boring music is supposed to be redeemed by some tricky > process, or cool patch, or whatever. Sure, as someone > who does music and recording, I notice things that no one > else does. But just because I can hear what protools > plug-in Blink 182 is using doesn't make them any better. > Or worse. It just means I'm using a different standard to > evaluate them. Arguably, the wrong one. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:05:40 +0800 From: jmcazurin <mikah@toast.net> Subject: basic fennesz question Hello - I'm just wondering how 'Fennesz' is pronounced... Thanks in advance, mikah ps - my new girlfriend, on hearing a Fennesz track, said, "Whoa, sex music!" - now I'm in love. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:11:06 -0800 From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <keithmar@msn.com> Subject: Re: The Ornette Fight >>>I thought the Zorn list was above this, but I guess I was wrong...<<< Raise your hand if this reminds you of your mother. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:11:18 +0100 From: "Francesco Martinelli" <fmartinelli@tin.it> Subject: ornette Come out from the two worlds, when you would enter music. Music belongs to you, and you also belong to music. The revered Junayd of Baghdad (God have mercy on him) said, "In listening to music, think of three things: First is the time." The listener must have complete quietude leaving aside all worldly recollection and attachments, collecting this concentration into one center, and abandoning needs and wants, his whole body becomes tasting and longing, and he participates in listening to music. This should not be at the time of ritual prayer and devotions. No worldly need should prevent one's attention and peace of heart. I would also add that it should not be at a time when prostration if forbidden, that is, at the time of sunrise and sunset. "Second is place." It should not be in a public thorough fare, but in a remote place protected from noise and confusion. It should be a neat and clean place, with no bad smells to disturb the brain. "Third is the people." There should be no critics of listening, arrogant and dry ascetics, or mannerless people. There should be no fake or hypocritical Sufis. The reflection of the bad thoughts of those people will have an effect on others. The presence of a critic of listening to music is the occasion for troubling thoughts, for it is this very picture of arrogance whose gaze and presence exerts a negative influence. The fake and hypo critical Sufi, by his pretense of ecstasy and dancing, disturbs those who are present. from his fake dance and ecstasy their spiritual state and grace suffer interruption. -- from: "Teachings of Sufism" Selected and translated by Dr. Carl W. Ernst, - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #700 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com