>>All of this without a mention of the crimes being done in the name of
>Judaism as we speak.
>Are you serious? (I don't know if I have permission to breath here), but I don't recall the recent JAZZ IN PARIS cd-reissues make
any mention of the imperialistic crimes made on behalf of the French Empire, or any apology in the editions of Bachs Cantates.
(Well, why not? Wouldn't it be great? I'm serious, R U Sirius, too?) If the Radical Jewish Culture Series -- (unlike Jazz in Paris it's intended to be MORE than a set of CDs and performances, right? Jazz in Paris does not claim to be Radical, either) -- has nothing to say about politics, about real things happening to real people, then why bother? If we start to/ or continue to confine Politics and Culture/Music to separate spheres, what then?
We get equally useless self-referencing post-modernist/ feegood multiculturalist music and the $ "music" of Mtv. The only reason I would expect Zorn and the Radical Jewish Culture Series to have some sort of political position concerning Israel and Palestine is because the question is central to Jews all over the world. In general, if a group that claims to represent me commits crimes, then I would tend to want to decry these crimes. And I do. and so do most people, except when it interferes with their business or with their vision of their pure art. Rarely, though, do the ônon-decry-ersö profess to be Radical.
That is why Zappa, Chadbourne, (early) Dylan, Negativland, most local hardcore scenes, KRS-One, etc. are, in my opinion, such IMPORTANT figures - they soil(ed) their music with political topics, denying the separation between cultural and political activities.
> Is it absurd to speak of "radical" culture? I would say the course
Which arts and letters has taken over past hundred years or so shows clearly that "radical" is not a strictly political term.
I would not say that it is a strictly political term either, but that it INCLUDES the political, as well as the cultural. Refusing the separation between politics and art is, to me, approaching a definition the word radical. That is how the Situationiste Internationale, for example, were radical and how abstract expressionists were not.
>I don't think that expressing ones self in terms of a sort of Jewish
culture necessitates taking an overt political stance regarding Israel in one's music. We simply do not know the true feelings of perhaps ANY of the people on these discs regarding current Middle East politics. For all we know, their stances could range from one extreme to the other.
Does anybody else see that as a problem?- that Zionism/anti-Zionism isn't even part of the discourse in a Radical Jewish group of artists? In doing research (albeit not super in-depth) for an article on Zorn, the political silence around him seems deafening. Who benefits when Radical Art today scarcely does anything but re-signify within its own field? What would Dada do (WWDD)?
I do see your points, Stephen and Robert, about the ethnic exclusivity of the Radical Jewish Culture Series û who better to reinterpret ôJewishö music than those that identify w/ the fringe of the diaspora? However, shouldnÆt we expect some sort of political discourse in a Radical group of artists?
mg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:19:27 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism
On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 05:16:13AM -0000, Millie Gorgon wrote:
=20
> (Well, why not? Wouldn't it be great? I'm serious, R U Sirius, too?) =
If the Radical Jewish Culture Series -- (unlike Jazz in Paris it's inten=
ded to be MORE than a set of CDs and performances, right? Jazz in Paris =
does not claim to be Radical, either) -- has nothing to say about politi=
cs, about real things happening to real people, then why bother? If we s=
tart to/ or continue to confine Politics and Culture/Music to separate sp=
heres, what then?=20
I don't think it's a matter of either seeing things as a binary split
between "Politics" and "Culture/Music" or "confining" them to separate
spheres, but more as an issue of what the series has dealt with so
far. I suspect that if an artist in the series had a project that
directly addressed this political issue, it would come out. But I
doubt that there's any sort of cabal that's figured out every detail
of what they will address and what the issues are. From what I read,
and as is confirmed to some extent by Mandel's recent article, the
whole thing is kinda ad-hoc, and seems to consist of little more than
an aggregation of projects that touch upon Jewish life in some way.
Jewish culture is kind of vast. While the RJC series doesn't directly
address the issues that most interest you, there are also a lot of
other issues related to Jewish culture, directly or indirectly, that
it doesn't yet address.=20
> We get equally useless self-referencing post-modernist/ feegood multicu=
lturalist music and the $ "music" of Mtv. The only reason I would expect=
Zorn and the Radical Jewish Culture Series to have some sort of politica=
l position concerning Israel and Palestine is because the question is cen=
tral to Jews all over the world. In general, if a group that claims to r=
epresent me commits crimes, then I would tend to want to decry these crim=
es. And I do. and so do most people, except when it interferes with the=
ir business or with their vision of their pure art. Rarely, though, do t=
he =93non-decry-ers=94 profess to be Radical.
While the issue is important, is it necessarily "central"? It may
appear so to some, but Zorn seems to be dealing more directly with
other aspects of Judaism.
I also suspect that, like what I suspect is true of a great many of
us, Zorn may recognize the issue as complex and have a lot of
ambivalence about it. While I protest some of the actions of Israel's
leadership and military, I also recognize the very real situations and
fears within which they happen. And demonizing either side does
nothing to solve the situation.
And I have a hunch that you may be inferring more or different
meanings from the term "Radical", in terms of political/social
viewpoint, than may be intended. Remember that one can be a radical in
many different directions and along many different axes. As has been
shown repeatedly, someone whose position in the arts is radical might
well be extremely normative, or possibly radical in an unexpected
direction, when it comes to other issues. Look at, for example, Charles
Gayle's music (which at least some call radical) vs. his political
views, or the way that many of the 60s leftist radicals were
nonetheless quite conservative when it came to gender relations.
> That is why Zappa, Chadbourne, (early) Dylan, Negativland, most local h=
ardcore scenes, KRS-One, etc. are, in my opinion, such IMPORTANT figures =
- - they soil(ed) their music with political topics, denying the separation=
between cultural and political activities.
I'm reminded that, if I recall the story correctly, Jazz producer
Orrin Keepnews kept a large sign on his wall saying "Important to
whom?"
> I would not say that it is a strictly political term either, but that i=
t INCLUDES the political, as well as the cultural. Refusing the separati=
on between politics and art is, to me, approaching a definition the word =
radical. That is how the Situationiste Internationale, for example, were=
radical and how abstract expressionists were not.
Well, some would consider the abstract expressionists to have been
radical. Which again goes to show that you can't assume too much from
the use of the word.
=20
> Does anybody else see that as a problem?- that Zionism/anti-Zionism isn=
't even part of the discourse in a Radical Jewish group of artists? In d=
oing research (albeit not super in-depth) for an article on Zorn, the pol=
itical silence around him seems deafening. Who benefits when Radical Art=
today scarcely does anything but re-signify within its own field? What =
would Dada do (WWDD)?
Do you see it as Radical Art's responsibility to "benefit" any given
group? Might it be that the artists, while agreeing on many things, do
not have a consensus on this issue, or might remain ambivalent? After
all, one of my ensembles contains two fish-eating near-vegetarians,
one hardcore vegan, and two carnivores, so we tend not to make
statements as part of our music on food issues, though we feel and
speak strongly as a group on other matters.
> I do see your points, Stephen and Robert, about the ethnic exclusivity =
of the Radical Jewish Culture Series =96 who better to reinterpret =93Jew=
ish=94 music than those that identify w/ the fringe of the diaspora? How=
ever, shouldn=92t we expect some sort of political discourse in a Radical=
group of artists?
No, I don't think so.
- --=20
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 00:04:13 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism
> I'm reminded that, if I recall the story correctly, Jazz producer
> Orrin Keepnews kept a large sign on his wall saying "Important to
> whom?"
Damn, he was smart.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: 24 Aug 2001 11:09:38 -0000
From: "Millie Gorgon" <snacky@disinfo.net>
Subject: Re: Cultural vs. regular Zionism II
>far. I suspect that if an artist in the series had a project that
>directly addressed this political issue, it would come out. But I
>doubt that there's any sort of cabal that's figured out every detail
>of what they will address and what the issues are. From what I read,
that's my point -- the artists don't address anything but each others' work, Zorn doesn't, the kinds of artists chosen by Zorn to record don't.
>Jewish culture is kind of vast. While the RJC series doesn't directly
>address the issues that most interest you, there are also a lot of
>other issues related to Jewish culture, directly or indirectly, that
>it doesn't yet address.
issues that are top headlines worldwide every single day are not simply issues that "interest me." a lot of lame artists are often worry about muddling their ideal artistic product in the debris that is real life - politics, means of production (of their product), the human body itself even (e.g. Jarrett the human cough suppressant). is this Zorn's concern?
>ambivalence about it. While I protest some of the actions of Israel's
>leadership and military, I also recognize the very real situations and
>fears within which they happen. And demonizing either side does
>nothing to solve the situation.
maybe we shouldn't get into this, but at least let me digress for 2 short sentences: 1.read yer Chomsky! and 2.the UN (minus the US and Israel) is "demonizing" Israel also.
>Do you see it as Radical Art's responsibility to "benefit" any given
>group? Might it be that the artists, while agreeing on many things, do
>not have a consensus on this issue, or might remain ambivalent? After
if they don't have a consensus on the issue, then we ought to hear some sort of discussion amongst them (on disc, or off). if they remain ambivalent they should form an opinion!
>>than those that identify w/ the fringe of the diaspora? However, shouldnÆt we expect some sort of political discourse in a Radical group of artists?
>
>No, I don't think so.
now we've gotten somewhere. we can continue the argument, but it seems to have wandered a ways from the original question, and from appropriate zorn-list content. our argument now is "what is the role of art in society." i understand your view, but i disagree. i do expect political discourse in a group of Radical anythings, and frankly, Zorn and the RJCS falls short of radicalism in any meaningful sense. yes, the SOUND is radical, but it's fartin' in the wind as my grandfather would say. Zorn is a musical giant to me, but narrows his scope too much, becoming a midget on the z-axis.
mg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:34:00 +0200
From: Jeroen de Boer <jeroen@cyberslag.nl>
Subject: Mike Patton & DEP
From a pressrelease:
Mike Patton, vocalist for Faith No More/Mr. Bungle/Fantomas will be handling
the vocals on the next Dillinger Escape Plan EP, which will be out sometime
