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Zorn List Digest        Thursday, July 5 2001        Volume 03 : Number 489



In this issue:
-
       Re: Monk?
       did I miss something?
       Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do
       Re: Monk?
       Re: did I miss something?
       Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do
       oTo T22 mp3 sample
       Re: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice
       Re: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice
       Re: Reviews of Maldoror (Ipecac)
       Chadbourne
       Re: Chadbourne
       birkin's marriages
       Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
       Re: birkin's marriages
       Re: birkin's marriages
       Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
       Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
       Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:51:27 -0700
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Monk?

> At 10:01 AM +0200 7/5/01, patRice wrote:
>>=20
>> So what do you boys and girls think is essential Monk?

Must as I could get me head chopped off for this, I recommend the Columbia
stuff first and foremost, because I think that quartet really g=F8t those
tunes just right.

Also, THE UNIQUE THELONIOUS MONK, a trio LP on Riverside, is mindbendingly
great.

I have pretty much all of Monk, so I can tell you this much -- getting into
Monk is something you kind of do heavily when you first get around to it.
So I'd almost say to just buy anything, because there's so little bad Monk.

skip heller

np: monk -- criss cross


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:55:11 -0700
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: did I miss something?

I was out of town, but I thought I saw all my email.  Is is possible that
the death of Joe Henderson aroused no commentary from a group that is
supposed to be concerned with improvising?

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 13:08:35 -0400
From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do

there are some interesting books out there on improvisation (aside from
Bailey's):

i haven't picked up either of these in a long time but remember liking
them a lot:

The Inner Game of Music
The Listening Book

it seems to me that some of this is a matter of having 'big ears'. there
are times when i play where i can hear a single interval, or maybe even
a single note...and all sorts of possibilities just pop into my head.
some of it just comes from years and years of listening to all sorts of
music, not just free-improv-type stuff.

- --
Mark Saleski - [e-mail]
"Is it so wrong, wanting to be at home with your record collection?" -
Nick Hornby



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 13:32:43 -0400
From: Dwayne <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Monk?

Must have for any Monk fan(s) are the solo Black Lion sessions, some of
the best Monk I've heard.  It's Monk's Time is a nice Columbia lp from
'63, I think, with mostly originals which is odd for Monk.  Usually he
re-recorded a lot of his stuff.


- -Dwayne

patRice wrote:
>
> Hi y'all...
>
> After reading the Zorn interview again in Duckworth's "Talking Music" I
> thought I should once again delve a bit more into Thelonious Monk.
>
> So what do you boys and girls think is essential Monk?
>
> I remember hearing some stuff at a friend's place years ago that I
> liked; and I've got a CD that has some good stuff on it. Must say I
> prefer the pieces that don't have wind instruments.
>
> Suggestions welcome.
>
> patRice
>
> np: Morcheeba, Fragments Of Freedom
> nr: Ryunosuke Akutagawa, Rashomon
>
> -

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:42:02 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: did I miss something?

At 9:55 AM 7/6/01, Skip Heller wrote:
>I was out of town, but I thought I saw all my email.  Is is possible that
>the death of Joe Henderson aroused no commentary from a group that is
>supposed to be concerned with improvising?
>
>skip h

Oh my god, I hadn't heard that anywhere yet. What a terrible loss, he was
an amazing musician.

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]
New & Improv Media
http://www.newandimprov.com
Now available: Minus: Dark Lit
____________________________________________



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:47:28 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Improvising guitarists and how they learn how to do what they do

At 1:08 PM 7/5/01, Mark Saleski wrote:
>there are some interesting books out there on improvisation (aside from
>Bailey's):
>
>i haven't picked up either of these in a long time but remember liking
>them a lot:
>
>The Inner Game of Music
>The Listening Book
>
Another book I like a lot is Creative Improvisation, by Roger Dean (Open
University Press 1989). I have no idea if it's still in print, probably
not, but it offers a collection of really interesting listening and
interaction exercises that I found pretty valuable at the time.

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]
New & Improv Media
http://www.newandimprov.com
Now available: Minus: Dark Lit
____________________________________________



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:03:15 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: oTo T22 mp3 sample

oTo T22 - Michael Gillham

A wonderful swarm of guitar drones. Like being a grub
eating honey in your hexagonal cell and listening to
the rest of the hive go about the day.

Mp3 sample

http://www.fencingflatworm.cjb.net

Guitar?


____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 21:53:52 +0200
From: Ari <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice

>> np: the best of john barry
>
> Does it include Jane Birkin?

?? euh... no, i don't think jb ever worked with jb, did (s)he?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 12:56:59 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gainesbourg novel, + Q by novice

On Thu, 05 Jul 2001 21:53:52 +0200  Ari wrote:
>
>
> >> np: the best of john barry
> >
> > Does it include Jane Birkin?
>
> ?? euh... no, i don't think jb ever worked with jb, did (s)he?

Weren't they married? Or am I confusing with another soundrack English
composer...

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 15:56:07 -0400
From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Reviews of Maldoror (Ipecac)

Have you read the novel by the same name?  If you haven't, the logic of the
album will escape you.  It was intended to be loosely a musical
interpretation of the work.  The novel has a twisted logic (actually the
lack of logic becomes it's logic) of its own.  I definite must read even for
non-Patton Fans.  Surrealist literature at its most beautiful.

Zach

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:33:11 -0500
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Chadbourne

Skip Heller wrote:

>Some guys -- and I think Chadbourne is one of these -- are just born with a
>certain kind of inner-ear.   I think that he was just born to play a ceratin
>way.  As for his practicing scales, I don't really get the feeling that I'd
>like to hear him in a jazz group playing "Giant Steps".  I don't get the
>feeling that's something he could really do.  Robert Quine, on the other
>hand, seems to me to be more at home with the traditional literature.  And,
>obviously, Frisell.
>
>A lot of guys like Chadbourne (and Beefheart) wind up designing contexts for
>the way they play, which is great to do, because I can't see where
>Chadbourne would shine so brightly other than where he shines.  Anybody who
>doesn't think context matters should hear the Paul Bley record where Ornette
>plays "Klactoveedsedstene" (a Charlie Parker tune) very very badly. But the
>clue of someone who's taking a Bailey/Frith/Chadbourne etc tact is to design
>and build your own context.  And I often doubt if that impulse can be
>learned as much as it is something to which one gravitates naturally.
>

I'm not sure exactly where Skip is drawing this line, but Chadbourne
can play changes very well, as his solo recordings (I have them on
cassette, but they may now be available on CD) released as the Eddie
Chatterbox sessions show (as do several other scattered recordings).

However, he doesn't seem to be interested in playing jazz
idiomatically and on the rare occasions I've heard him live or on
record with "real" jazz musicians, that's not a style in which the
ensemble stays for very long.

This is probably what Skip is talking about in terms of inner ear,
though I'd use this term to describe something more along the lines
of harmonic sensitivity, which I think Chadbourne has lots of. His
situation, and that of many other musicians who might fit into Skip's
category, seems to me to be more related to a lack of an idiomatic
time feel, which may be a conscious decision as often as the innate
situations that Skip describes.

Most of the situations in which Chadbourne plays what someone else
referred to as "twisted" versions of standards are examples of folks
who don't play jazz idiomatically using jazz tunes as a context for
improvising using a very different vocabulary of schticks.

Bests,

Herb
- --
Herb Levy
Mappings on Antenna Internet Radio
http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/
[e-mail]

Mappings
P O Box 9369
Forth Wort, TX 76147

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 14:48:14 -0700
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Chadbourne


> I'm not sure exactly where Skip is drawing this line, but Chadbourne
> can play changes very well, as his solo recordings (I have them on
> cassette, but they may now be available on CD) released as the Eddie
> Chatterbox sessions show (as do several other scattered recordings).


My experiences hearing Chadbourne play changes have nothing to do with
whether or not he can do it well -- he can certainly approximate the
approach admirably -- but it always sounds to me (emph. TO ME) like someone
speaking a translation and not his first language.

>
> However, he doesn't seem to be interested in playing jazz
> idiomatically and on the rare occasions I've heard him live or on
> record with "real" jazz musicians, that's not a style in which the
> ensemble stays for very long.
>
> This is probably what Skip is talking about in terms of inner ear,
> though I'd use this term to describe something more along the lines
> of harmonic sensitivity, which I think Chadbourne has lots of.


I would never say something so ill-founded as Chadbourne lacks any kind of
musical sensitivity.  Ever.  Ornette Coleman, yes.  Chadbourne, never.


 His
> situation, and that of many other musicians who might fit into Skip's
> category, seems to me to be more related to a lack of an idiomatic
> time feel, which may be a conscious decision as often as the innate
> situations that Skip describes.

Either way, to pursue that kind of idiomatic time defiance requires an
aggressive step.

>
> Most of the situations in which Chadbourne plays what someone else
> referred to as "twisted" versions of standards are examples of folks
> who don't play jazz idiomatically using jazz tunes as a context for
> improvising using a very different vocabulary of schticks.


You want a twisted take on a jazz standard, check out Monk's version of
"Honeysuckle Rose".  Twisted is great, when it's done well (ie Marc Ribot's
"I Should Care" is a yes, but his "Wind Cries Mary" doesn't thrill me).
>


skip h

np: cannonball adderley -- country preacher (not one of his best)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:12:40 +0200
From: Ari <[e-mail]>
Subject: birkin's marriages

on 05-07-2001 22:16, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> On Thu, 05 Jul 2001 22:11:34 +0200  Ari wrote:
>>
>> i only know she was married to gainsbourg, who became gainsbarre after she
>> left him, but i don't think she went to barry then...
>
> She was married to Barry before (unless I am confusing...).
>
no, you're right! i didn't know this (but therefore this list exists, isn't
it??) and did they record together?

ari


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 15:25:04 -0700
From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)

My VERY subjective take on free improvisors involves a word that is passing
from one usage to another, and I hope that nobody thinks I mean this in a
pejorative sense, because I don't. Improvisors have to be able to get their
freak on, so to speak, at a moment's notice -- not to BE that freak, but to be
able to channel their inner freak whenever.  It seems to me that it must be
like having multiple personalities, and at least one of those personalities
speaks a language called "Chadbourne Freak" or "Zorn Freak" or "Bailey Freak"
or whatever. Speaking Freak outside a musical context makes it difficult to
get by -- imagine trying to buy a candy bar and a coke at the Stop'n'Rob and
being able only to speak in Phil Minton Freak. But when two or more
improvisors get together and speak to each other in their own dialect of
Freak, and suddenly realize that the language can involve a degree of
telepathy (like Delany's Babel-17?), it's a beautiful thing.

So the improvisor has to nurture his or her own inner freak, and always have
that portion awake and watching/listening, to pick up interesting sights and
sounds that can be turned around into new words and phrases in their own
dialect of Freak. I've read that someone who is very fluent in a second
language sometimes finds themselves thinking in that language. Imagine
thinking in Freak! I suspect that folks like Evan Parker, Bailey, Chadbourne,
etc., who've been encouraged and even PAID to speak in Freak on a stage must
think in Freak as often as they do in English or whatever their birth tongue
is.

Again, I don't want folks thinking that I mean Freak in the Tod Browning
sideshow sense. I'm just playing off of the phrase "he got his freak on,"
because that's what I think free-improvisors do. So, to get back to the guy
who's learning the guitar, I think you could cultivate and nurture the
improvisor in you by letting it tell you what the language "Michael Howes
Freak" sounds like -- vocuabulary, accent, squeaky or growly voice, etc.  The
dangers in this split personality business are pretty obvious, but the
benefits are too, for zornlisters and anyone else who's heard Evan Parker go
for a half hour without seeming to take a breath.

whew! he said pretentiously
William Crump


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 15:25:42 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: birkin's marriages

On Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:12:40 +0200  Ari wrote:
>
> no, you're right! i didn't know this (but therefore this list exists, isn't
> it??) and did they record together?

Not to my knowledge (my comment was of a humoristic nature).

    Patrice.

NP: DOUBLE-WASH: Marchetti, Voice Crack, Noetinger (Grob)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:35:41 +0200
From: Ari <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: birkin's marriages

>>=20
>> no, you're right! i didn't know this (but therefore this list exists, is=
n't
>> it??) and did they record together?
>=20
> Not to my knowledge (my comment was of a humoristic nature).
>=20
ok, but as they were married, it could've been...

"mon nom est bond, james bond 069, l'homme =E9rotique"

np: JS Bach violoncello solo suites I-VI (played by paolo beschi, one of my
favourites)

ari


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:48:14 -0400
From: "David Beardsley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)

It's been a long while since I read Graham Lock's Forces In Motion,
but doesn't Braxton refer to this as developing a language?

David Beardsley

- ----- Original Message -----
From: William Crump <[e-mail]>

>It seems to me that it must be
> like having multiple personalities, and at least one of those
personalities
> speaks a language called "Chadbourne Freak" or "Zorn Freak" or "Bailey
Freak"
> or whatever. Speaking Freak outside a musical context makes it difficult
to
> get by -- imagine trying to buy a candy bar and a coke at the Stop'n'Rob
and
> being able only to speak in Phil Minton Freak.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 15:56:50 -0700
From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)

I suspected, during the writing, that I was going to be repeating an existing
theory. I haven't read the Graham Lock book, but I do recall Zorn (in the
Book of Heads liner notes) referring to the etudes as being in a language
that only he understood and which nobody spoke (or something like that). I
like the idea of each improvisor speaking a different dialect of it. And as
with any other language, some people are more articulate than others. Some
are as eloquent as Disraeli, some just grunt and point. (Which can be
interesting in itself sometimes.)

Wm. Crump

David Beardsley wrote:

> It's been a long while since I read Graham Lock's Forces In Motion,
> but doesn't Braxton refer to this as developing a language?
>
> David Beardsley
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
>
> >It seems to me that it must be
> > like having multiple personalities, and at least one of those
> personalities
> > speaks a language called "Chadbourne Freak" or "Zorn Freak" or "Bailey
> Freak"
> > or whatever. Speaking Freak outside a musical context makes it difficult
> to
> > get by -- imagine trying to buy a candy bar and a coke at the Stop'n'Rob
> and
> > being able only to speak in Phil Minton Freak.
>
> -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:01:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: konrad <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)

On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, William Crump wrote:

> I do recall Zorn (in the Book of Heads liner notes) referring to the
> etudes as being in a language that only he understood and which nobody
> spoke (or something like that).

> David Beardsley wrote:
>
> > It's been a long while since I read Graham Lock's Forces In Motion,
> > but doesn't Braxton refer to this as developing a language?

Sorry to not have read the book either, but this metaphor of each personal
idiom being a different language seems a little strained at the point
where Zorn takes it to.  I mean, how can it still be a language if only
one person understands it?  I think fundamentally a language is something
that doesn't belong to a person, but to a group.  We may hear Chadbourne
warping tunes or Zorn blowing duck and reed strawberries, but they've come
to those sounds through a long history of practice, research and give and
take.

It certainly makes sense to me to say that they extend an existing
language though, incrementally or by breakthrough.  I know it may sound
like a meandering distinction to say there's a difference between saying
something new in a language that's around, and extending a language that's
around so that new things can be said in it.  But i think the first is
like practicing licks and scales and becoming fluent enough with them to
make your own idiom (Zappa), and the second is like figuring out that
putting metal 16mm film canister on the strings of the guitar on your lap
and dropping little beads onto it can make sounds that are musical
(Frith).  Any great improviser does both.


konrad

^Z



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #489
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